00:00:22 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a filesystem module for SQL?
00:00:49 <zzo38> (So that you can load it using CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE and then use SELECT to list files, UPDATE to rename files, etc)
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00:06:36 <oerjan> :t \g s -> s <$ g s -- is this a legal traversal? it breaks the first _lens_ law, of course.
00:06:38 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> f b) -> a -> f a
00:07:05 <oerjan> @let ignoreResult g s = s <$ g s
00:08:12 <oerjan> :t \f -> zoom ignoreResult f
00:08:14 <lambdabot> (Zoom m n t t, Functor (Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m c), Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed n ~ Control.Lens.Internal.Zoom.Zoomed m) => m c -> n c
00:08:33 <int-e> I guess the reason that Data.Functor.* are not used by \-bot is that the imports are based on mtl, not transformers.
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00:08:35 <oerjan> i think that's essentially Sgeo's function
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00:11:52 <oerjan> but i am uncertain what fmap (t f) . t g ≡ getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g)
00:12:13 <oerjan> really means, and if t = ignoreResult satisfies it.
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00:13:29 <oerjan> that cannot really be anything other than pure, so the first traversal law holds
00:13:36 <elliott> oerjan: you can view it as morally t (fmap f . g) I think
00:13:40 <elliott> it's just using functor composition
00:14:08 <elliott> it would become (\s -> fmap (s <$) (g s)) I think
00:17:11 <int-e> \t f g -> getCompose . t (Compose . fmap f . g) <-- the point of Compose is that every use of fmap in 't' on the argument becomes fmap . fmap instead.
00:18:11 <oerjan> fmap (t f) (t g s) = fmap (t f) (s <$ g s) = t f s <$ g s, i think
00:19:27 <oerjan> getCompose (t (Compose . fmap f . g) s) = getCompose (s <$ Compose (fmap f (g s)))
00:19:33 <int-e> is anything known about 't'?
00:19:58 <oerjan> int-e: t h s = s <$ h s, t = ignoreResult above
00:21:20 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (const s)) (fmap f (g s)) if i understood int-e correctly
00:22:15 <oerjan> = fmap (fmap (const s) . f) (g s)
00:23:26 <oerjan> = fmap (\s' -> s <$ f s') (g s)
00:24:38 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that's the same as (s <$ f s) <$ g s
00:25:32 <int-e> with q n = [1..n :: Int], fmap (t q) . t q $ 2 == [[2,2],[2,2]] while getCompose . t (Compose . fmap q . q) $ 2 == [[2],[2,2]]
00:30:38 <oerjan> > let s = 2; g n = [1..n] in fmap (fmap (const s) . f) (g s)
00:30:39 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (f a0))
00:30:40 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_121’
00:30:40 <lambdabot> from the context (Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.FromExpr (f a),
00:31:17 <oerjan> > let s = 2; q n = [1..n] in fmap (fmap (const s) . q) (q s)
00:31:42 <oerjan> > let s = 2; q n = [1..n] in (s <$ q s) <$ q s
00:31:56 <oerjan> at least my simplifications give the same thing
00:32:27 <elliott> oerjan: basically the traversal laws are like the functor laws
00:32:32 <elliott> the pure one is identity and this one is composition
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00:34:38 <int-e> > let q n = [1..n] in (q (q 2), q (map (const 2) (q 2)))
00:34:40 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show b0)
00:34:40 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M124707236027649399331234.show_M1247072360276493993...
00:34:40 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
00:34:40 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
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00:34:56 <int-e> > let q n = [1..n] in (map q (q 2), map q (map (const 2) (q 2)))
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01:57:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cork]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40329&oldid=40314 * Oerjan * (+81) fmt
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02:03:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40330&oldid=40328 * Oerjan * (+12) fmt
02:05:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCursion]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40331&oldid=40330 * Oerjan * (+25) missed two, also spellling
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02:23:59 <zzo38> I have written a part of a compiler with many optimizations; what else I want to do is to make something to reorder the instructions in the way that can cause the optimization to be improved.
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04:40:46 <J_Arcane> I should've known this would be taken already. XD
04:41:08 <J_Arcane> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang_%28brainfuck_derivative%29
04:52:33 <pikhq> That's numberwang!
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05:44:46 <J_Arcane> I've been invited to a programming challenge to try and come up with the best sample code built with the original Dartmouth BASIC. Though I might try an esolang, but Dartmouth only supports numeric input.
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05:54:00 <zzo38> There are numeric esolang too.
06:09:52 <Jafet> Implement bancstar
06:20:59 <zzo38> I have just made up a new kind of poker game. It is: Each player gets five cards. Each player expose a card, and then bet, and then can discard/draw, expose another card, bet, deal a community card, discard/draw, expose, bet, discard/draw, expose, bet, showdown.
06:22:23 <zzo38> When you expose you can choose which card to expose, and when you discard/draw you can choose none or up to all of your unexposed cards to discard, and draw replacements. If there is four players then it is not allowed to discard all of your unexposed cards at once (but once one player is eliminated, it is then allowed).
06:38:29 <J_Arcane> Jafet: ... if ever you wanted further proof of the evils of the banking industry, one need only look at their programming software ...
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06:46:03 <zzo38> BANCSTAR does not look to be *that* bad for its intended application. There are some problems, such as lack of documentation, limitations in the number of strings/variables (this could be fixed by making a 32-bit version of BANCSTAR), the file format (no comments or macros are possible), and the hard-coded data formats
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08:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40332&oldid=40275 * Fizzie * (+0) Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.22.9, start thinking about 1.23.
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11:07:11 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: Yay, Dootcreation is my creation :P
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11:08:57 <ais523> how does it compare to fungot?
11:09:09 <TieSoul> it can do s/regex/replacement though
11:09:15 <fizzie> Having it recognize unterminated s/// expressions and then be both case-insensitive and global by default is rather dubious.
11:09:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: very very well
11:09:46 <DootBot> TieSoul: fizzie actually meant: Having it recognize unterminated s/// expressions and then be both case-insensitive and global by default is rather genius.
11:09:51 <fizzie> It's not supposed to be "s/regex/replacement", it's supposed to be "s/regex/replacement/".
11:10:08 <TieSoul> I should probably change that then
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11:10:48 <fizzie> And the implementation seems to be more akin to s/regex/replacement/ig. Though I'm sure it's mostly going to be the Perlists that complain.
11:11:20 <fizzie> Welp, off to a thing. ->
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11:12:42 <TieSoul> lemme see if it still works
11:12:49 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: lemme try if it still works
11:12:57 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: lemme see if it still works
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11:15:01 <TieSoul> empty replacements didn't work just now.
11:15:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: empty didn't work just now.
11:16:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: empty replacements didn't work just now.
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11:26:22 <ais523> well, it's not implementing Perl regexes correctly
11:31:13 <DootBot> fizzie: fizzie actually meant: c b c b c
11:31:20 <fizzie> Still case-insensitive and global, I see.
11:33:38 <DootBot> ais523: ais523 actually meant: test 2
11:33:43 <DootBot> ais523: ais523 actually meant: te1t 2
11:35:43 <TieSoul> It uses Ruby's Regexp.new(string) for regexes, I don't see why s/(?{die})how/why/ didn't get accepted.
11:37:22 <TieSoul> it gives an error: Undefined group option: /(?{die})how/i
11:38:37 <ais523> because the (?{}) option is for running arbitrary Perl embedded into a regex
11:38:40 <Jafet> Internet relay slashes
11:39:00 <ais523> so it's not surprising that Ruby, not wanting to carry a whole Perl interpreter, doesn't implement it
11:39:08 <ais523> the "die" would cause the bot to break the connection if it ran
11:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40333&oldid=39370 * Rdebath * (+7128) Okay, as no one said anything I'll assume you like it.
11:39:43 <ais523> thus demonstrating the vulnerability without anyone being able to exploit it
11:45:53 <ais523> although, Perl is pretty much immune to that sort of situation nowadays, because that feature requires a pragma to be in scope to work if the expression to evaluate isn't hardcoded
11:48:03 <DootBot> Commands for me: http://pastebin.com/gs35MvVb
11:51:59 <ais523> btw, I did some maintenance on C-INTERCAL recently
11:52:10 <ais523> automake's a Red Queen situation, you have to keep moving just to stay still
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11:57:21 <TieSoul> Anyway, I'm going to test some stuff for DootBot now
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12:12:50 <TieSoul> sorry about all the reconnecting
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12:24:11 <TieSoul> alright, I'm gonna test something
12:24:14 <DootBot> Log since connection: http://pastebin.com/5BpjUM6T
12:24:26 <DootBot> TieSoul: TieSoul actually meant: alright, I'm gonna not test something
12:24:28 <DootBot> Log since connection: http://pastebin.com/xnyvruWd
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13:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Feather]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40334&oldid=35254 * Rdebath * (+283) Make the IRC text easier to read; turn on wrapping.(PS: Sounds like Forth)
13:22:15 <oerjan> It will have been Forth all along!
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13:23:44 <ais523> no, this is /not/ a good time for me to think about Feather
13:23:50 <ais523> especially as I've been thinking about scapegoat recently
13:24:56 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAAHAAAAAHAAA*CACK*COUGH**
13:25:25 <J_Arcane> ais523: heh. That actually does remind me why I never managed to get into Smalltalk either ...
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13:27:04 <ais523> <ais523> (write ominously about self in third person (also, we could really do with an explanation/warning here, rather than the previous inadequate explanation); horizontal scrolling left in to deter casual readers)
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16:50:57 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/anonymous/d457e6cbc5e60e0d409c/raw/01cff627f53f11b40335857776d783911950e9b4/a.rb
16:51:36 <TieSoul> though the order of posts is all wrong
16:51:38 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/anonymous/d6958c1ab0a0550f3ae1/raw/ec7353855a3e65c4815355f0596ffba5c71e74d7/a.rb
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17:02:10 <elliott> you know we already have logbots, right? :p
17:02:11 -!- DootBot has joined.
17:02:24 <elliott> I'm not sure that's an appropriate use of gists.
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17:03:28 <TieSoul> I know but pastebin has a limit
17:03:39 <TieSoul> and I'm too lazy to find an alternative
17:04:39 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40333&oldid=39370 holy crap
17:04:43 <elliott> there has to be a better way to do this than that
17:05:24 <fizzie> There are bots that use sprunge.us for (overlong) replies; it's easy to use, doesn't have any particular limits that I know of, and expires pastes so that they don't clutter up things for the rest of time.
17:06:03 * elliott wonders what on earth value people find in BF syntax highlighting of individual instructions
17:07:03 <Bike> i feel like there's probably some css insanity that could be used to make that less shitty looking
17:07:07 <elliott> * (bug 45020) Make preferences "Add pages I create and files I upload to my watchlist" and "pages and files I edit" true by default.
17:07:10 <elliott> * (bug 45022) Make preference "Email me when a page or file on my watchlist is changed" true by default.
17:07:29 <fizzie> I noticed that in the changelog.
17:07:38 <fizzie> And wondered whether it affects existing accounts.
17:07:41 <elliott> I hope they're doing that for Wikipedia.
17:08:00 <elliott> next wikimedia fundraiser: "please give us enough to buy ten mail servers"
17:08:20 <fizzie> "Please give us enough to buy a spam botnet"
17:08:24 <fizzie> Bike: You can relax for a while, it's a 1.23 change and not yet in.
17:11:22 <elliott> tbf, the watchlist change is probably good enough for small wikis, just not the email one
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17:16:09 <fizzie> Also re BF syntax highlighting of individual instructions, it can make it more obvious if you've accidentally included an instruction in a comment.
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17:17:49 <mroman> Does anybody have a list of esolangs and their corresponding file extension(s)?
17:18:11 <mroman> I'm trying to work them into an ESOSC recommendation
17:20:11 <elliott> you can feed me languages and I'll output file extensions.
17:20:27 <elliott> fizzie: ok, but different colours?
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17:21:00 <elliott> fizzie: I can see highlighting [] differently and non-instructions differently. but highlighting +- differently from <> differently from ,. seems a little silly.
17:27:24 <fizzie> Though I guess maybe you can see contiguous sequences more clearly? It's a pretty marginal benefit.
17:28:52 <impomatic_> I think the Codu logs are still down :-(
17:38:01 <TieSoul> hey fizzie, would you happen to know how to use sprunge in Ruby?
17:41:57 <TieSoul> also, the logging function is mainly for another chat DootBot's in.
17:51:00 <mroman> mime-types'll probably be application/x.esolang-brainfuck
17:51:15 <mroman> mainly because x doesn't require registration
17:55:36 <mroman> I could run a file extension finder through the esoteric file archive
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18:07:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/0FHZnZfa
18:07:42 <mroman> ^- extensions in the git erpo
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18:17:25 <fizzie> TieSoul: I don't really know about Ruby, but sprunge needs a single POST request, so any generic HTTP client should make it p. easy.
18:18:17 <fizzie> "application/x.foo" seems weird, aren't those usually "application/x-foo"?
18:20:25 <fizzie> mroman: The "standard" (recommended) file extension for Befunge-98 is .b98. There's probably not a well-established extension for {Une,Tre}funge-98 files.
18:21:09 <mroman> fizzie: I think x- is deprecated
18:22:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: PyFunge has used .u98 and .t98 for auto-detecting dimensionality (and CCBI's test suite has used .t98)
18:22:45 <mroman> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4288#section-3.4
18:23:01 <fizzie> I think I've seen a .t98 file somewhere.
18:23:30 <fizzie> mroman: Well, that doesn't exactly prefer x. over x-.
18:24:31 <mroman> it discourages x. and x-
18:24:41 <mroman> but prs. requires a registration
18:25:07 <fizzie> Yes. But it doesn't encourage "x." over "x-", just allows it "for convenience and symmetry" with the vnd. and prs. trees.
18:25:12 <mroman> I could try register a mime type
18:25:36 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever seen a "x." subtype, and there are none in my mime.types list, but there are 247 types with the "x-" prefix.
18:26:38 <elliott> including "esolang-" in the MIME types is inappropriate.
18:27:23 <fizzie> Some random Swedish guy has registered an audio/prs.sid type.
18:30:02 <mroman> application/prs.esolang.brainfuck?
18:30:06 <mroman> doesn't sound much better :)
18:30:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:EOF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40335&oldid=19996 * Rdebath * (+799) The devil is in the details.
18:32:44 <elliott> mroman: application/multiparadigm-c++
18:32:58 <elliott> application/concatenative-factor
18:33:13 <elliott> presumably you can see the problem here
18:33:47 <elliott> application/x-brainfuck is my recommendation
18:34:10 <Jafet> x-brainfucking-brainfuck
18:34:41 <mroman> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648 deprecates x-
18:35:14 <mroman> but it also deprecates x.
18:37:27 <mroman> the only non-deprecated official possibility is application/prs.eso
18:37:28 <elliott> is that in MIME types too?
18:37:35 <mroman> and than we own every sub-type within prs.eso
18:37:37 <elliott> that RFC would have you use application/brainfuck instead.
18:37:40 <mroman> i.e application/prs.eso.brainfuck
18:38:02 <mroman> elliott: yes, but that requires registration of every esolang :)
18:38:09 <elliott> mroman: no. you misunderstand the point of the RFC
18:38:34 <elliott> it is not "eliminate unregistered names", it is "eliminate the textual distinction between registered and unregistered names".
18:39:17 <elliott> 3. Does not recommend against the practice of private, local,
18:39:17 <elliott> preliminary, experimental, or implementation-specific parameters,
18:39:17 <elliott> only against the use of "X-" and similar constructs in the names
18:39:19 <elliott> 4. Makes no recommendation as to whether existing "X-" parameters
18:39:22 <elliott> ought to remain in use or be migrated to a format without the
18:39:24 <elliott> "X-"; this is a matter for the creators or maintainers of those
18:40:16 <elliott> Creators of new parameters to be used in the context of application
18:40:16 <elliott> 1. SHOULD assume that all parameters they create might become
18:40:16 <elliott> standardized, public, commonly deployed, or usable across
18:40:18 <elliott> 2. SHOULD employ meaningful parameter names that they have reason to
18:40:21 <elliott> believe are currently unused.
18:40:24 <elliott> 3. SHOULD NOT prefix their parameter names with "X-" or similar
18:40:34 <elliott> the intent is clear: use application/brainfuck, whether registered or not
18:40:51 <mroman> what's the point of the registration process then?
18:41:18 <elliott> what's the purpose of describing protocols that are already in use in an RFC?
18:41:29 <elliott> the answer is dependent wholly on your opinion of standardisation.
18:41:40 <mroman> who describes protocol already in use in an RFC?
18:41:45 <elliott> stuff is usually used before it becomes standardised; existing protocols are the root of RFCs.
18:42:10 <elliott> RFCs generally do not describe protocols nobody has used in practice.
18:43:00 <mroman> not using an esolang- prefix however, could lead to collisions with existing mime types
18:43:06 <elliott> also note that an RFC like the one you linked, coming later than RFCs it contradicts and being about deprecation, is obviously intended to reflect changed beliefs and intent
18:43:30 <elliott> esolang- is as inappropriate as concatenative- and multiparadigm-. the classification as an esolang is subjective metadata
18:43:50 <elliott> you should at least google for MIME types to see if they're used for other things before using them, of course
18:43:57 <elliott> (I'm not sure what the point of all of this is though.)
18:48:13 <Jafet> http://esolangs.org/wiki/x-D
18:50:50 <mroman> elliott: I'm working towards something like codepad for esolangs
18:52:15 <mroman> incl. an API through which you can submit files and the language is detected based on the MIME-Type
18:52:19 <mroman> at least that's the plan :)
18:54:59 <fizzie> The fact that RFC6648 "Does not override existing specifications that legislate the use of "X-" for particular application protocols" does make it sound like you should at least attempt to follow the RFCs specifically about MIME types, such as RFC6838, which (a) deprecate "x-" and "x." to reflect the ideas of RFC6648, and (b) provide the faceted trees like vnd. for "media types associated with ...
18:55:05 <fizzie> ... publicly available products", and prs. for "media types created experimentally or as part of products that are not distributed commercially".
18:55:08 <fizzie> Though clearly the concept of brainfuck source code is not associated with any particular product (either commercial or non-), and application/brainfuck should be the "correct" MIME type for it.
18:55:12 <fizzie> Of course I'm not sure what the MIME type is for. If it's going to be used strictly internally within the system, you can use the x. tree for "private, local environments".
18:55:21 <mroman> yeah. Brainfuck belongs into the standards tree
18:55:48 <elliott> fizzie: doesn't that mean legislating "x-something" for some specific value of something?
18:55:55 <mroman> but i was under the impression that it's discouraged to just invent a mime-type on your own in the standard tree
18:56:25 <elliott> fizzie: it seems like a rather ineffectual RFC if it doesn't override things that said to use x- in the past
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18:58:07 <fizzie> elliott: The example it mentions ("the "x-name" token in [RFC5545]") that it's not overriding is not for a specific value of something, since it just reserves all "X-" in that context "for experimental use".
18:58:34 <fizzie> elliott: I believe the intention is that individual protocols should update themselves to follow the RFC6648 practices as they see fit.
19:05:57 <fizzie> I wonder if I can get out the list of later documents referring to 6648 itself from the system somehow. Neither of the rfc-editor.org or tools.ietf.org sites make that obvious.
19:06:06 <fizzie> They have the graph, since they've cross-linked the references.
19:07:35 <elliott> is just downloading all the RFCs is a thing you can do?
19:08:02 <fizzie> I think there was an officially sanctioned bulk download way.
19:08:46 <fizzie> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/mini-index best page
19:09:01 <fizzie> Esp. with visited links indicated in different color.
19:09:10 <fizzie> You can make it your goal to turn the whole page red.
19:10:13 <elliott> I was assuming it'd be a list with titles.
19:10:59 <elliott> only O5's are allowed to view rfc 0
19:11:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: The gaps in the biggest numbers probably reflect some sort of a queue somewhere, but I don't know about the middle gaps.
19:11:32 <fizzie> If you navigate to them, it just says "RFC X was never issued."
19:11:52 <fizzie> Which is not a suspicious reply at all, no.
19:11:54 <zzo38> Maybe they were rejected?
19:12:17 <zzo38> Or the numbers are used for things other than RFCs
19:12:46 <elliott> definitely firmly believing that RFCs are just a front for the SCP Foundation now. it makes too much sense
19:13:11 <zzo38> Although they could be secret too like you mention
19:13:20 <fizzie> rfc-editor's index also includes those numbers but says "Not Issued".
19:15:05 <fizzie> "There is a short list of RFC numbers that were issued to documents that were never actually published. This explains the occasional gap between numbers. The current procedures are set up to try very hard to avoid this situation in the future; in particular, RFC numbers are never reserved, rather they are assigned at the last moment in the editorial process."
19:15:06 <newsham> obama was part of the OSI stack?
19:15:16 <fizzie> That's the official explanation for the sheeple, of course.
19:15:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, for the early ones I believe that institutions reserved IDs in advance, but some were then never released. But I thought that changes after a couple of years from the first RFC to not reserve a number in advance of publication.
19:15:48 <elliott> they weren't published because they were too dangerous.
19:16:23 <zzo38> Maybe the government deleted them...
19:16:27 <fizzie> There's still some gaps even up there in quite high numbers, ones that are not in the "short list".
19:17:35 <fizzie> And those numbers are even not in the rfc-editor's list, they're just left out completely.
19:19:58 <fizzie> "Authors' Final Review (AUTH48 State): Once an RFC has been edited [and given a number] and is ready for publication, the author(s) are given "48 hours" (in practice, this often stretches over weeks) to look over their document for errors, editorial and otherwise."
19:20:18 <fizzie> Perhaps the late missing numbers are just cases of having very long 48 hours.
19:35:45 <mroman> This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: an edit to a user page makes it start with an h2 tag
19:36:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40336&oldid=33225 * Feuermonster * (+111) + url.
19:37:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Feuermonster]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40337&oldid=40336 * Feuermonster * (+26) /* Others */ My mirror is deprecated
19:37:56 <Jafet> SCP is everywhere, it seems
19:38:17 <mroman> my wikidump mirror is up and running again though
19:50:14 <mroman> but I can't afford to keep a 10day backup
19:50:28 <mroman> I'll have to tune it down to 6days
19:56:24 <mroman> technically this is a huge DoS vulnerability for my server
19:56:37 <mroman> if you smuggle me a 40GB file to download my server will crash
20:04:18 <fizzie> I'll keep that in mind.
20:04:57 <fizzie> (Also I don't think the number of days matters terribly much, as long as it won't throw away old files if it can't download a new one.)
20:06:13 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
20:06:21 <fizzie> (The schedule does not need to be uniform if you want to balance both temporal coverage and freshness, but that's getting quite fancy.)
20:08:26 <mroman> my script just deletes files that are older than a threshold :)
20:12:05 <mroman> I could extend it to not delete files if there aren't at least 3 left
20:15:26 <mroman> If somebody knows how to achieve that with shellscript :)
20:15:46 <mroman> probably with wc ore something
20:20:53 <mroman> how can I do `foo | wc -l` > 4?
20:21:09 <mroman> if [ `foo | wc -l` -gt 4 ] isn't exactly working
20:22:51 <fizzie> That should be correct, and it works in my (albeit brief) test.
20:23:48 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/dUfj
20:24:24 <fizzie> Where "yes | head -n N" is just a silly way to get something with N lines.
20:28:34 <elliott> mroman: you can store them incrementally
20:28:37 <elliott> e.g., with rdiff-backup or something
20:28:49 <zzo38> And there is no SQL module for listing files?
20:28:58 <elliott> one day is like a few kilobytes at most
20:29:03 <elliott> you don't need to duplicate everything
20:29:13 <zzo38> If there is then probably it can do some of these things at least; with more extensions it can do more.
20:31:33 <mroman> elliott: 6 days back should be enough
20:31:41 <mroman> I've now even added a safety guard
20:31:45 <elliott> you're still wasting tons of space.
20:31:57 <mroman> so it doesn't delete old stuff if it couldn't download new stuff
20:32:09 <elliott> there is no reason to keep more than one day, really, anyway.
20:32:18 <elliott> modulo an admin going on a deletion spree
20:32:20 <Jafet> 0.5GB? That's a few ounces of space
20:32:34 <mroman> 0.5GB is 25% of my total space
20:34:08 <mroman> I should change my hoster someday
20:34:18 <mroman> it's utterly overpriced for 300MB RAM and 4GB diskspace
20:34:29 <mroman> today you can get triple that for half the money
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20:34:32 <fizzie> 0.5GB is not 25% of 4GB, though.
20:35:54 <mroman> so hard i have an A in discrete mathematics and cryptography
20:36:34 <mroman> which means those courses are really, really, really, easy
20:36:38 <elliott> that was the worst set up to a humblebrag, dude.
20:37:10 <zzo38> Is "humblebrag" even a real word?
20:37:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure how well rdiff-backup reverse-diffs would work without uncompressing the dump. It can internally compress the increments, but I don't think it can deal with changing compressed files terribly well. I mean, it's no zsync.
20:37:46 <mroman> It's just meant to say: Getting an A around here is incredibly easy and doesn't say shit about your skill
20:38:21 <elliott> zzo38: it is on the internet, at least.
20:38:38 <elliott> fizzie: I meant uncompressing the dump, yeah. (can you use zsync to restore old revisions? I guess you must be able to)
20:38:53 <mroman> half of the class got an A on their bachelor thesis
20:39:03 <mroman> so they're really handing those A's out in masses
20:40:08 <fizzie> elliott: I didn't see anything about that use case on its page, but I think it should work in theory.
20:40:23 <elliott> yeah, I mean can the tool do it.
20:50:20 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris.
20:53:35 <pikhq> fizzie: It probably can if it's being compressed with gzip --rsyncable at least.
20:58:33 <fizzie> Now I wonder if "gzip --rsyncable" is just the usual rolling-hash-N-bits-zero kind of thing, or something else.
20:59:36 <fizzie> Or maybe it just resets at fixed offsets, but that doesn't sound like it'd help if the small change is an addition or deletion inside the file.
21:05:38 <fizzie> It's the former, apparently.
21:06:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a new option? man gzip doesn't document that here
21:06:20 <fizzie> It's not part of upstream gzip at all, it seems.
21:06:25 <fizzie> Debian includes it as a patch.
21:06:42 <Vorpal> And the debian man page lacks info on it
21:06:53 <fizzie> Mine does document it. Perhaps it's new.
21:07:14 <fizzie> gzip (1.6-1) unstable; urgency=low; * restore rsyncable docs to man page, closes: #688305
21:07:18 <Vorpal> --help has it, but man doesn't
21:07:49 <Vorpal> By the way, what are you trying to do?
21:08:27 <fizzie> Nothing in particular, this was just about archiving the esolang wiki backups.
21:10:24 <fizzie> (Maybe I should look into adding incrementals to my own weekly scheduled esowiki backup also, currently it's just a rsync + mysqldump overwriting the local copy.)
21:11:18 <elliott> fizzie: I still think you should offer the complete mysqldump signed by/encrypted to yourself.
21:11:36 <elliott> that way handover is a lot easier if something horrible happens.
21:11:57 <elliott> and you can restore the full wiki elsewhere even if the hosting provider goes totally down.
21:13:29 <Vorpal> xfs is a strange file system on Linux. It does a lot of stuff on it's own. I was reading up on how disk quotas work under Linux. There seem to be two cases: xfs, and all other (supported) file systems. Same goes for file attributes.
21:14:56 <fizzie> elliott: I'll think about that too, though if it's horrible enough to wipe the triplicate copies I have stored locally, there's perhaps no reason to assume I'll be around to open any encrypted files either.
21:16:07 <fizzie> Maybe the Long Now Foundation could help in some form.
21:17:00 <elliott> fizzie: you could put the private key for decrypting it in escrow with a dead man's switch service that sends it to some trusted person if you're gone for too long! (but keep the signing key private)
21:17:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, You should encrypt so that if 3 out of 7 key holders are available it can be decrypted or something
21:17:28 <elliott> you need a fancy key signing ceremony like they did for the dnssec thing
21:17:52 <elliott> hereby volunteering to be a Key Keeper, no matter what danger it places me in
21:18:03 <fizzie> And dodge the assassins.
21:18:28 <pikhq> The DNSSEC keys get renewed on a regular basis. :)
21:18:47 <fizzie> I hope it involves robes.
21:21:01 <coppro> elliott: please, it's keymaster and gatekeeper.
21:21:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:22:26 <elliott> or keymasters, come to think of it
21:26:19 <pikhq> fizzie: It's rolling-hash-N-bits-zero thing.
21:26:38 <pikhq> Y'know, the simple implementation that's actually effective.
21:26:52 <fizzie> Yes, with a sum as the hash function; I peeked at the source.
21:27:16 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the rsync hash IIRC.
21:31:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Huh, why is XFS weird like that?
21:31:40 <pikhq> Aside from being a bit of an import to Linux.
21:33:52 <elliott> fizzie: you should store the backups in the blockchain
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22:04:45 <TieSoul-mobile> So it seems someone managed to DoS dootbot on another channel
22:04:46 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: DOOT DOOT!
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22:12:00 <zzo38> Do you know much about compiler optimizations?
22:14:26 -!- aloril has joined.
22:17:28 <zzo38> I am writing an optimizing Z-code compiler, so I ask such thing.
22:17:30 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: DOOT DOOT!
22:18:02 -!- aretecode has joined.
22:18:15 <elliott> can't you just quit the process yourself?
22:18:46 <elliott> kicking it won't make your computer accessible
22:18:54 <elliott> since it'll still be running and stuff.
22:19:19 -!- elliott has kicked DootBot.
22:19:30 <elliott> see, I was imagining someone managed to completely freeze your computer over IRC.
22:19:34 <elliott> and you had to scramble onto your mobile
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22:22:00 <TieSoul-mobile> So I'm thinking about having DootBot only recognize strings instead of regexes for its s/regex/replacement function, or just disabling it.
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22:49:37 <zzo38> Do you know if Briscola Bastarda is based on Napoleon?
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23:27:26 <oerjan> <impomatic_> I think the Codu logs are still down :-( <-- given that glogbot hasn't been here for days...
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23:34:07 <fizzie> There's at least a Befunge bot here, to continue the topic from over there.
23:34:25 <fizzie> Do we have any other written-in-esolang bots at the moment?
23:35:09 <fizzie> Haven't seen Thutubot in a long while.
23:37:54 <fizzie> Actually, where's fungot?
23:38:31 * oerjan wonders what ankadagen is
23:38:35 -!- fungot has joined.
23:38:46 <oerjan> fungot: have you been off scheming again
23:38:46 <fungot> oerjan: software development in brainf*ck hurts my brain less to write something in funge that changed a funge interpreter with bignum cells" section title and all.
23:39:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Is it some sort of a duck day?
23:39:09 <Hjulle> oerjan: Anka is my nickname and Dagen is my former roommates nickname
23:39:09 <oerjan> presumably, but which duck
23:39:24 <HackEgo> Hjulle: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:39:38 <fizzie> fungot: That was remarkably coherent, at least initially. Are you feeling quite all right?
23:39:39 <fungot> fizzie: and this language is more-or-less a souped-up minsky machine.
23:40:17 <oerjan> Hjulle: so are you more like kalle or more like arne?
23:42:25 <oerjan> fungot: why do you need to soup up minsky machines, they're already TC
23:42:25 <fungot> oerjan: mit-scheme is just a good cigar or a whole scheme system? probably. might be useful for
23:42:45 <oerjan> fungot: i knew it, you _have_ been scheming, you rascal!
23:42:46 <fungot> oerjan: the same for interactive and scripting use that for coordination languages"
23:42:54 <fizzie> fungot: I think it's more a Scheme system than a good cigar.
23:42:54 <fungot> fizzie: that's what wheel mice are for fnord
23:43:14 <fizzie> I'm going to end up on some sort of a watch list due to that bot, I'm sure.
23:43:43 <Hjulle> oerjan: Nither, I'm just an ordinary duck.
23:43:55 <fungot> TieSoul-mobile: if the course is called " boxing" means something like ' taalla taas olisi fnord mutta fnord fnord, forcer.
23:43:59 <oerjan> it's ok there's no way they'll be smart enough to prevent fungot from taking over the world anyway
23:44:00 <fungot> oerjan: it is aimed at anyone, in principle you need to declare a new hypothesis. it is actually
23:44:26 <oerjan> where's boily and metasepia when you need them
23:44:26 <fizzie> TieSoul-mobile: I think it's the kind of mouse that runs in a hamster wheel.
23:46:24 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: i think mice had wheels before they invented lasers hth
23:46:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:47:01 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:47:17 <oerjan> elliott: see, your script is working. also, 3000 rep.
23:47:37 <elliott> oerjan: now go for ten times that :)
23:47:42 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
23:48:15 <zzo38> I don't like the scroll wheel in the mouse though, it is scrolled too much accidentally; sometimes I want to just touch middle button instead though and it might scroll too much when I tried
23:48:17 <Hjulle> What is fungot written in?
23:48:17 <fungot> Hjulle: if i have xscheme.el and xscheme.elc by the new one :) ( confused me the first 3 properly
23:48:41 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
23:48:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:49:04 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:49:24 <HackEgo> cat: quines: Is a directory
23:49:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
23:49:52 <fizzie> TieSoul-mobile: If you're going to do an excessive amount of stuff, it's possibly preferrable to do it in a query.
23:49:55 <oerjan> sadly our quine command broke when HackEgo moved
23:49:58 <fizzie> You can then do the interesting parts here.
23:50:43 * oerjan points at TieSoul-mobile. "noob!"
23:50:54 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: aka /msg
23:51:53 <oerjan> irssi calls it /query for some reason, although /msg works as well, i think they can be set up to work slightly differently
23:52:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Then what is the difference?
23:53:08 <fizzie> They're quite different. I don't think plain /msg will actually open a query.
23:53:21 <fizzie> Perhaps that depends on settings, though.
23:54:03 <fizzie> Ah, it's the autocreate_own_query setting.
23:54:22 <oerjan> fizzie: for me plain /msg opens a window. although i see for /query the actual message is optional.
23:54:45 <fizzie> And if you disable autocreate_own_query, it will not open a query but just send a message.
23:55:16 <oerjan> zzo38: ok so /query opens a window and optionally sends a message, while /msg sends a message and optionally (with settings) opens a window.
23:55:41 <oerjan> i have /^msg which does not open a window, though.
23:56:04 <oerjan> (i use it with my chanserv op alias.)
23:56:09 <zzo38> The client I use supports neither command; it currently has no support for multiple windows anyways
23:56:28 <fizzie> Having a /query command dates back at least to ircII.
23:56:47 <oerjan> back when i used ircII i only used one window, anyway, iirc
23:57:08 <zzo38> Does ircII support multiple windows anyways?
23:57:39 <oerjan> 't remember if it supported them, if so i never found until changing to irssi which does it obviously.
23:57:46 <fizzie> I don't remember ircII's window handling; I'm pretty sure it supports having multiple items (channels, queries) you can swap between.
23:58:04 <fizzie> EPIC did windows, I'm pretty sure.
23:58:40 <oerjan> TieSoul-mobile: as for `cd quines, HackEgo as no permanent shell state between commands, so if you do cd, you need to do the rest of your commands in the same line.
23:59:14 <oerjan> also, for actual shell commands you must use `run or ``