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01:20:17 <Sgeo> How much truth is there to the Apple claim that only allowing their hardware lets them focus on it? I mean, it seems to make sense to me, anyway, just very few sets of drivers to develop and maintain
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01:25:11 <Sgeo> Also, when people say Macs are overpriced... by how much? I can live with a few hundred extra... not a few thousand extra though
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07:47:33 <mroman> what's this consonant gradation thing?
07:53:05 <J_Arcane> You mean the weak and strong forms?
07:53:27 <J_Arcane> Pitää vs. minä pidän and so forth?
07:54:06 <J_Arcane> Just more fun with Finnish, basically. It does sort of make sense, English is full of those little shortcuts, it's just trying to define a rule for it turns out to be a lot of damn rules to remember ...
08:00:35 <J_Arcane> It's a pronunciation aid in it's original form, I think, just like the vowel harmony; in normal speech a lot of those simplifications and switches roll off the tongue better, but remembering them all as a foriegner is tricky.
08:02:28 <mroman> always or just for some kotus type thingies?
08:02:50 <coppro> J_Arcane: I'm a native English speaker and trying to think of all the ways that we do that makes my head hurt
08:02:56 <coppro> it's not as bad as Quebec French though
08:04:27 <J_Arcane> coppro: English is like the hardest language. XD I think the reason it survives (beyond a lot of problematic history) as a global language is because it's still largely tolerant of error.
08:04:47 <J_Arcane> You can be bad at English, really bad, and still get your point across.
08:05:47 <mroman> no cases, no conjugation, few exceptions
08:06:37 <mroman> no "la/le" "der/die/das" stuff
08:07:46 <viznut> english has a very difficult relationship between spelling and pronunciation, it is full of idioms that make little sense, there is parallel latin and germanic vocabulary for just about anything, etc
08:08:55 <viznut> the grammatical basics are simple, but the basics are seldom enough for fluency
08:09:06 <mroman> strong grade is used in the syllable, which is open (ends with vowel), weak grade when syllable is closed (ends with consonant)
08:09:09 <J_Arcane> mroman: Because there's so many exceptions and special cases, you can ignore them and pretend they don't exist, except when trying to transition from one to another.
08:09:32 <J_Arcane> English *does* have cases, and conjugation, and so forth, it's just not *taught* that way because the rules are no rules at all.
08:09:57 <J_Arcane> Instead we tend to just teach 'well you use this word for this tense, and that word for this one, etc. etc.'
08:10:09 <mroman> kukasta is weak, but ends with a vowel
08:10:15 <J_Arcane> And dear god, the ambiguous prepositions ...
08:10:47 <viznut> ku-kas-ta, s is a consonant
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08:21:21 <coppro> English does not have noun cases
08:21:44 <coppro> (or, I should say, it doesn't have declension except for pronouns)
08:22:28 <coppro> It also has verb conjugation, but there are at most five true forms for any verb other than 'be'
08:22:55 <coppro> all the rest is done by auxiliaries
08:23:27 <viznut> i count the 's-genitive as a noun case
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09:39:30 <b_jonas> but of course, Hungarian is hard too, it's just that it's not always hard in the same ways
10:02:49 <mroman> coppro: compared to other languages the conjugation are very simple
10:03:02 <mroman> sure, there are tenses.
10:07:18 <elliott> fizzie: I'm definitely not going to say no if you're offering! I love weird old hardware. not sure how much of a fuss the logistics of getting them to me would be, I guess they're too bulky to reasonably ship off in a normal package? I have to do the sleeping thing now, though. (also, I assume this means congratulations on getting the job?!)
10:09:53 <fizzie> elliott: Well, I mean, I got a definite offer, but I haven't accepted it yet, since I've yet to hear from the other place I applied to.
10:10:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slist: not found
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11:32:53 <fizzie> Bah. This 'highlight' tool supports all kinds of niche languages I've never even heard of ("Biferno"? "ABAP/4"? "MoonScript"? "SuperX++"?), but not Forth.
11:33:40 <fizzie> Sure, there's not that much syntax to highlight, but there's at least numbers, comments, and well-established parsing words like : ; ." and so.
11:37:11 <mroman> it compiles to Lua o_O
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11:44:36 <fizzie> I think it sounded vaguely familiar.
11:44:41 <fizzie> Or at least familiarest of those.
11:44:47 <fizzie> That was a non-exhaustive list.
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11:45:20 <fizzie> There's also "Not eXactly C" and "Yaiff" and "Yang" and "Zonnon", for example.
11:45:38 <fizzie> And "Squirrel" with file extension .nut, which sounds familiar though I can't quite place it.
11:45:38 <MDude> That'd be especially bad if you were trying to use ColorForth!
11:46:26 <fizzie> (Wrote a BOLG POST about some golf entries; my "blog engine" uses highlight for codey bits.)
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13:17:53 <int-e> oerjan: I did a bit of catching up.
13:17:58 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:18:16 <oerjan> can someone fix `undo please :(
13:19:41 <oerjan> `sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist
13:19:41 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
13:19:47 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's|rm bin/slist; ||' bin/slist
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13:21:25 <oerjan> i'm sure i vaguely recall there was some joking rationale for making that file self-deleting, but my humor keeps deteriorating.
13:22:21 <oerjan> also, we no longer have log search.
13:22:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/undo
13:27:56 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | paste
13:27:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.25739
13:28:53 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run
13:28:54 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:29:35 <int-e> oerjan: you were not involved, apparently: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-10-18 (03:01 ... 03:18)
13:29:41 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -R --dry-run
13:29:42 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you should have used the -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to
13:29:50 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p0 -R --dry-run
13:29:51 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 324c6be2e35a -r bbeb9415a2eb bin/slist \ |--- a/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:08:30 2013 +0000 \ |+++ b/bin/slistFri Oct 18 03:09:16 2013 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File to patch
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13:29:55 <int-e> (now do I want to figure out what slist was? I guess not.)
13:29:57 <oerjan> `run hg diff -c 3920 | patch -p1 -R --dry-run
13:31:41 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/-R/-p1 -R/' bin/undo
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13:32:18 <oerjan> i'm sure there's some way that will break for other files.
13:33:22 <int-e> `` hg diff -c 5074
13:33:23 <HackEgo> diff -r 5ac8a6965ce8 -r 08a929427374 bin/undo \ --- a/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:30:29 2014 +0000 \ +++ b/bin/undoSat Oct 18 13:31:12 2014 +0000 \ @@ -1,2 +1,2 @@ \ #!/bin/sh \ -hg diff -c "$@" | patch -R \ +hg diff -c "$@" | patch -p1 -R
13:34:13 <TieSoul> So I'm writing another Funge-98 interpreter, and I'm having some trouble with Mycology (again)
13:34:24 <TieSoul> GOOD: u with a positive count transfers cells correctly BAD: u with a positive count transfers cells incorrectly
13:34:40 <TieSoul> everything else is GOOD up to that point
13:34:45 <oerjan> i'm particularly worried about the /dev/null case, so i hope that's special cased.
13:35:48 <oerjan> int-e: `slist is homestuck iirc
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13:37:37 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
13:37:44 <HackEgo> slist 10/18: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
13:37:58 <HackEgo> diff -r b1c3b71f6b09 -r b69bb8ef2199 quotes \ --- a/quotesThu Nov 22 23:35:11 2012 +0000 \ +++ b/quotesFri Nov 23 08:58:56 2012 +0000 \ @@ -1,4 +1,3 @@ \ -<Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as
13:38:05 <atriq> oerjan: good timing
13:38:32 <oerjan> atriq: i'm just repeating the command Sgeo did because `slist had been made self-deleting.
13:38:35 <int-e> strange. I'd expect -p1 to be necessary
13:38:53 <int-e> but... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/5e1c1f3d6df7
13:38:54 <oerjan> int-e: um yes it is? that's what i changed.
13:40:24 <oerjan> int-e: i think it happens to work when the files are in HackEgo's home directory or something, since broken `undo has often strewn files there.
13:41:22 <int-e> oerjan: I know, I'm looking at logs, http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-01-24#211227Gregor ff.
13:42:44 <int-e> And I have no clue how a plain -R can work, even by accident.
13:43:00 <oerjan> elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice.
13:45:32 <int-e> oh wait, just read the documentation. "not specifying -p at all just gives you blurfl.c" [the example path is /u/howard/src/blurfl/blurfl.c]
13:45:47 <int-e> so yes it only works for files in the root directory.
13:45:58 <int-e> and -p1 is clearly the right thing to do.
13:46:58 <atriq> Can anyone link me an explanation of the char[] main stuff?
13:47:17 <int-e> atriq: huh, in what context?
13:47:24 <oerjan> atriq: i think it's just machine code as a string?
13:47:47 <oerjan> and since C's linker isn't typed, it treats that as if it's a defined function.
13:47:51 <atriq> oerjan: I'd prefer something more detailed, such as how to make one myself
13:48:00 <int-e> oh, there's that IOCCC entry, yes. that just defines a symbol "main" or ("_main") pointing to machine code.
13:49:37 <int-e> which may or may not work; usually that code would end up in the data section and that may not be executable.
13:49:43 * oerjan not good with assembler
13:53:47 <int-e> char main[]="\xc3"; ==> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
13:54:21 <int-e> (0xc3 is retq, it's an empty function. but the data segment cannot be executed, hence it dumps core instead.)
13:56:32 <oerjan> perhaps the const matters?
13:56:34 <int-e> the same code works on x86, apparently.
13:57:24 * oerjan not good with C whatchamacallits either
13:57:49 <oerjan> but i'd imagine if data is for changeable data, consts might be stored in the code segment
13:58:06 <int-e> with const it'll end up in .rodata, right that helps. interesting.
13:58:49 <Jafet> If the linker and kernel agree that .rodata is nonexec, you'll get a segfault anyway
13:59:06 <int-e> Jafet: it helps = that does work for me.
13:59:21 <int-e> interesting = I wonder why. :)
13:59:36 <Jafet> Sometimes they disagree, and rodata is executable
13:59:49 <Jafet> sometimes = pretty often
14:01:34 <oerjan> int-e: grmbl why do you always beat me on the golfs where i think i've been particularly clever.
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14:01:55 <oerjan> (disclaimer: confirmation bias at work)
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14:02:17 <int-e> oerjan: henkma did it first.
14:03:26 <int-e> oerjan: and I was feeling the same about hello hello world.
14:06:25 <int-e> (and actually the statistics helped me on that one)
14:06:44 <oerjan> right. how can you have so many fewer alphanums than me when the main (insignificant) change i can see is changing an operator to a function to get _more_
14:07:58 <oerjan> no, gvim, you're _not_ supposed to stupidly resize when i focus.
14:10:43 <int-e> hmm, funny. I have a solution of length 85 with 52 alphanums, none with more.
14:11:33 <int-e> oh wait, I can push that to 54
14:12:09 <int-e> (oops. no, that doesn't work.)
14:14:36 <b_jonas> how do you specify the result of {jorne} or {lasna}? the best I can think of is to add a {fi'o sumji} or {fi'o ve jmina} modal place
14:15:08 <int-e> that sounds perfectly esoteric
14:15:48 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's just like perl. you can do sane things or esoteric things in it, but the esoteric stuff is funnier
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15:22:18 <Gregor> <oerjan> elliott: Gregor: some explanation would be nice. // I'm not sure what you're asking me to explain.
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15:52:05 <oerjan> Gregor: how you ended up putting no -p1 in `undo, i guess. although the log linked showed some confusion about it.
15:53:15 <oerjan> but the answer is probably "because someone tested it without in the particular case where it actually doesn't break".
15:53:47 <oerjan> (someone being either you or elliott)
15:54:32 <oerjan> i suppose this was after something changed that made the old version break.
15:54:55 <oerjan> if there was an old version, maybe not.
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15:58:00 <oerjan> ah square root of minus garfield has started its birthday special sequence
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15:59:21 <int-e> all agree, a miracle!
15:59:37 <int-e> `` cd $HOME; pwd; env pwd
15:59:46 <oerjan> are you sure it's not an evil conspiracy.
16:00:35 <InvalidCo> I've just found my self writing an in-place-macro
16:00:44 <InvalidCo> for the sole purpose of being able to inline code generating code
16:00:44 <int-e> `` ln -s tmp /mtp; cd /mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm /mtp
16:00:45 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `/mtp': Permission denied \ bash: line 0: cd: /mtp: No such file or directory \ /hackenv \ /hackenv \ rm: cannot remove `/mtp': No such file or directory
16:01:04 <InvalidCo> int-e: what on earth are you doing?
16:01:07 <int-e> `` ln -s /tmp mtp; cd mtp; pwd; env pwd; rm mtp
16:01:09 <HackEgo> /hackenv/mtp \ /tmp \ rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory
16:01:32 <int-e> oh, hackenv ... grr.
16:01:50 <Bike> i kind of like maru's model, where a macro is just a normal function wrapped in a container that makes the evaluator and compiler do the right semantics.
16:01:51 <oerjan> http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/
16:03:09 <Bike> about five pounds!
16:03:11 <int-e> huh? Done, but not done?!
16:03:22 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory
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16:03:52 <oerjan> int-e: i am not convinced you reverted the right thing
16:04:14 <int-e> well it's gone, but why isn't it in codu's log...
16:04:36 <oerjan> it was a symbolic link
16:04:50 <oerjan> int-e: well that's a known bug, it doesn't work well with empty files
16:05:09 <HackEgo> total 32 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 bin \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 dev \ drwxr-xr-x 4 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 etc \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Oct 18 16:02 hackenv \ drwxr-xr-x 3 0 0 0 Oct 18 16:04 home \ drwxr-xr-x 11 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib \ drwxr-xr-x 2 0 0 4096 Jan 29 2014 lib6
16:05:20 <HackEgo> :-( \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
16:05:26 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
16:05:42 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `mtp': No such file or directory
16:06:00 <oerjan> wait it still doesn't show up
16:06:54 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
16:07:01 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 4 Oct 18 16:05 mtp -> /tmp
16:07:17 <int-e> I think the real question is why there was a commit for a change that should've been in the hackenv subdirectory
16:08:28 <oerjan> i think this transaction business is somewhat flaky.
16:08:28 <int-e> so the repo and hackego are now out of sync.
16:08:40 <oerjan> no, i think they're back in sync now
16:08:43 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access mtp: No such file or directory
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16:09:21 <int-e> yes they are, thanks
16:09:46 <int-e> anyway I still don't get what happened.
16:10:14 <oerjan> both symbolic links and empty files can confuse things, so the way to fix things is to turn the mess into an _ordinary_ file, then rm it normally. i think.
16:10:25 <int-e> does restarting the transaction change the cwd somehow?
16:11:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
16:12:01 <int-e> sigh, I forget that /hackenv *is* the root of the repo. Sorry.
16:13:33 <Taneb> Well, that was a fun day
16:13:36 <oerjan> Gregor: it would be nice if `revert didn't break the repository <-> actual directory contents correspondence when empty files are involved twh
16:14:29 <oerjan> Gregor: so that it would be possible to see whether things are broken or fixed, like.
16:15:08 <oerjan> Taneb: not too many casualties, i hope.
16:16:27 <Taneb> oerjan, Capture-The-Flag competition run by BAE's Computer Intelligence people
16:16:41 <Taneb> A lot of challenges involving cryptography and cybersecurity
16:16:46 <Taneb> One of which was to write brainfuck
16:17:02 <Taneb> Only two teams got that
16:17:06 <oerjan> int-e: i think the thing to do is (1) get the repository and actual directory to agree whether the file _exists_ (2) rm it properly.
16:17:09 <Taneb> Only one of which (me) did it properly
16:19:16 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure how there can _be_ an actual directory if there are simultaneously running programs, though.
16:19:21 <Taneb> (two programs were needed to complete the challenge, one of which was to print a certain string, easy enough)
16:19:51 <Taneb> (the second was to read a line from input that starts with an ASCII digit, then repeat the line that digit number of times)
16:20:47 <mroman> I have a language that compiles to itself.
16:21:05 <oerjan> mroman: how metacircular.
16:22:23 <mroman> echo being the compiler for it
16:23:08 <oerjan> ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test
16:23:55 <oerjan> ^bf ,------------------------------------------------>>,[>,]<[<]<[->>[.>]<[<]<]!3test
16:26:13 <mroman> "Superx++ is an object-oriented language that is entirely based on XML's syntactical structure. Superx++ conforms with the XML version 1.0 specification as published on the W3C web site. Programming in XML itself has great potential and Superx++ pushes the envelope!"
16:27:01 <boily> it seems someone had a bad case of XSLT.
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16:28:07 <mroman> The advantage of creating esolangs based on XML is that you can easily parse it
16:28:18 <mroman> like with JAXB (Java) for example
16:28:26 <mroman> you essentially get XML-parsing/writing for free
16:28:33 <mroman> it can even generate an XSD for it
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17:00:05 <int-e> haha, superx++ has a "short" format which ... http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/Samples/ArrTest_shx.htm ... err, looks like C++ with a couple of extra semicolons?
17:11:24 <mroman> of course it's useless
17:12:41 <mroman> finally complete. It has been released on the web site of Emergent Logic LLC, the company I formed to promote Superx++
17:12:51 <mroman> he created a company to promote SuperX++
17:13:38 <mroman> although emergentlogic.com isn't a registered domain
17:14:46 <mroman> http://xplusplus.sourceforge.net/FAQ.htm
17:14:53 <fizzie> "ART PRIZE [ITALY]: Marina de Tommaso, Michele Sardaro, and Paolo Livrea, for measuring the relative pain people suffer while looking at an ugly painting, rather than a pretty painting, while being shot [in the hand] by a powerful laser beam."
17:15:03 <mroman> Who wants to write SuperX++ by hand
17:15:29 <fizzie> (Ig Nobels are always worth looking at, and the 2014 ones were awarded relatively recently.)
17:15:47 <mroman> this guy is more serious about his SuperX++ than I'm about Burlesque
17:16:54 <mroman> also... if XML is so cool
17:16:59 <mroman> why did he invent the C-like syntax
17:17:09 <fizzie> If XML is so cool, then why aren't you rich?
17:17:16 <mroman> He kinda made SuperX++ because he thinks XML-Syntax > C-like Syntax
17:17:23 <mroman> then suddenly he adds C-like syntax
17:17:34 <mroman> fizzie: Why would XML make me rich?
17:18:06 <fizzie> That was just a "if it's so X then why aren't you Y" thing.
17:18:42 <mroman> But I still think it's somewhat contra his initial opinion
17:19:03 <mroman> since the best benefits of SuperX++ is, that it's XML
17:24:16 <b_jonas> oh great, this says gcc 4.9 libstdc++ has the make_unique function!
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17:32:35 <mroman> If C++ is so cool then why do I not like it?
17:33:21 <mroman> (probably mostly because too much line noise, references vs ptrs, you have to do your own memmgmt
17:34:02 <mroman> too much const (auto_ptr)&*std:<bost:::<><>>make_ptr:uniqiu_potr
17:35:23 <mroman> (that's just a rant. Not to start a discussion. Pls don't relpy to the above. thx)
17:37:48 <j-bot> mroman: |syntax error
17:41:33 <Sgeo> j-bot uses [ now? And is not named jconn?
17:44:56 <Sgeo> Is Factor dead? I do seem some development on it, but not sure if it's just a little bit
17:48:52 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it's forks of the same bot ran by different people
17:49:11 <b_jonas> there's like eight different names used so far by about six people running that bot
17:49:24 <b_jonas> you can also use its full name
17:59:35 <Sgeo> Hmm. It occurs to me that Factor might be exactly the sort of language where if you're writing lenses, you really, really, want to be able to use native function composition
18:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrew Melrose * New user account
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19:20:55 <mroman> ais523: Now I need to circumvent your spam protections
19:21:04 <mroman> my language generation bot needs that
19:21:20 <mroman> how many generated languages shall it publish a day :D?
19:21:33 <ais523> mroman: if it's something that would seriously benefit the wiki, I can give it an exemption
19:21:58 <ais523> however, if you're generating unboundedly many languages, may as well just write a page about the generator, unless they're all individually interesting
19:21:59 <mroman> it wouldn't benefit anything
19:22:21 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL
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20:24:05 <elliott> fizzie: ah, well, I suppose I'd better wish you luck in getting a better offer then :p
20:33:36 <fizzie> That would be counterproductive from your point of view, since the other place's in Germany, though.
20:33:55 <elliott> yes, but it shows how selfless and caring I am, see?
20:34:10 <fizzie> Ohhh, right, I see. Of course.
20:34:30 <elliott> that way if you get a good offer in germany you'll be overcome by guilt at not being able to reward my kindness, and be forced to turn it down.
20:35:03 <elliott> (I like how you were bemused at either me having a non-selfish bone in my body, or possibly anyone at all having a non-selfish bone in their body.)
20:39:53 <fizzie> As for physically moving those things, they are kind of heavy. I mean, I'm sure the post would take them, but I think it'd be at least a "Medium Parcel".
20:39:58 <fizzie> Though we were thinking of doing some trips to Scotland (depending on how vacations and the like happen), and I guess most of the rest of UK would be more or less on the way there.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Well, we'll see. This all would most likely be start of next year at the earliest.
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20:41:14 <elliott> fizzie: I am a little worried that this would put us at a very critical mass for a UK #esoteric meetup.
20:42:37 <Bicyclidine> it's going to be a problem when you start fissioning and irradiate the place
20:44:26 <ais523> it takes like a day to travel from Scotland to the south of the UK
20:44:39 <ais523> although I guess Hexham's quite close to the south part of Scotland
20:44:56 <b_jonas> make all the others travel to scotland instead then
20:45:15 <mroman> Are you planning an #esoteric meetup in UK?
20:45:24 <fizzie> I've had enough trouble keeping track of all the Finnish people, I have no idea (a) how many UKers there are, and (b) how they've spread across the place.
20:45:50 <ais523> we're scared of the possibility
20:46:09 <ais523> most likely because it'd raise the chance of elliott and Taneb knowingly meeting a long way above zero
20:46:50 <boily> (btw, where's that madbr guy...)
20:46:54 <elliott> fizzie: of the people who are around these days, I think me, ais523, ph, taneb, impomatic?
20:47:14 <ais523> I didn't know that impomatic was British, but in retrospect, I should have guessed
20:48:07 <fizzie> Is Lord British British, by the way?
20:48:19 <fizzie> "British / American", says Wikipedia, so I guess kinda.
20:48:36 <ais523> the Lord British Postulate is hilarious
20:49:08 <ais523> (basically, the defining characteristic of Lord British the fictional character is indestructability; thus, whenever he's placed in a computer game, people inevitably find some way to kill him)
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21:29:13 <Taneb> elliott, impomatic is british?
21:29:25 <elliott> unless I'm seriously mistaken
21:30:42 <oerjan> interesting, the logs about the `slist self-deletion which were linked were exactly one year ago. which caused me some confusion just now when trying to bring up today's logs from the address bar :P
21:31:03 <Taneb> oerjan, the gigapause was a year-long
21:33:11 <Taneb> Also I fear we've lost a bftxtgen
21:33:48 <HackEgo> 43 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>++++>><<<<-]>.+.>+. [187]
21:34:31 <Taneb> Oooh I did not know you could do that
21:34:44 <oerjan> we've got most of the things ported to HackEgo from EgoBot mostly working now. there probably are still exceptions.
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21:35:38 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: not found
21:35:44 <fizzie> Arguably, maybe that should do something?
21:35:49 <oerjan> fizzie: ok maybe not that one.
21:37:08 <oerjan> also, `! c still has the flaw that it no longer supports whole modules are arguments, because gcc now accepts so much junk inside main that everything tends to compile with the inside-main version first.
21:37:28 <oerjan> however, the `cc command does the whole module version, so it's no disaster.
21:38:12 <oerjan> (although it might be confusing for people who expect `cc to work as a synonym for gcc
21:39:01 <fizzie> `cc b;main(a){for(;a<501;)printf("%d\\n",b+=a&-a++);}
21:39:01 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:1: warning: data definition has no type or storage class [enabled by default] \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:23: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default] \ 1 \ 3 \ 4 \ 8 \ 9 \ 11 \ 12 \ 20 \ 21 \ 23 \ 24 \ 28 \ 29 \ 31 \ 32 \ 48 \ 49 \ 51 \ 52 \ 56 \ 57 \ 59 \
21:39:15 <fizzie> I keep getting caught by the \n \\n thing.
21:39:21 <oerjan> oh, and HackEgo doesn't have haskell. the infrastructure for _calling_ haskell from `! is all there, just not an actually installed ghc.
21:39:34 <zzo38> Is it possible in Windows Vista to make a custom keyboard layout and set it for only one account?
21:40:18 <oerjan> we _do_ still have lambdabot.
21:40:27 <oerjan> although it doesn't accept whole modules.
21:41:01 <HackEgo> bin/fueue: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x917b248982ab816231581ea2110accfe9423e4ec, not stripped
21:41:26 <oerjan> i don't recall which fueue interpreter that was generated from.
21:41:56 <oerjan> oh, and of course all the `userinterps from EgoBot haven't been transferred afaik.
21:42:16 <oerjan> which includes some implementations of esolangs in other languages.
21:43:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%21
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21:46:25 <oerjan> `run (echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo "echo '"'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.') >ibin/help
21:46:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/help: Permission denied
21:46:42 <oerjan> `run chmod +x ibin/help
21:46:46 <HackEgo> ibin/help: 3: ibin/help: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string
21:46:54 <HackEgo> cat: bin/help: No such file or directory
21:46:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo 'The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.
21:47:28 <oerjan> `run sed -i "2s/$/'/" ibin/help
21:47:38 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/` for a list.
21:47:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i "2s/` for/ for/" ibin/help
21:47:56 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
21:48:04 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/` for/ for/' ibin/help
21:48:09 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list.
21:48:17 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
21:48:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
21:49:29 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/ls /url /' ibin/help
21:50:02 <Taneb> I have just written the most commented brainfuck file I have ever written
21:50:07 <oerjan> `run url ibin/; echo hi
21:50:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin \ hi
21:50:18 <HackEgo> The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `ls ibin/ for a list.
21:50:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/ls ibin/url ibin/' ibin/help
21:50:59 <HackEgo> The ! command calurl various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
21:51:26 <oerjan> fizzie: your privmsg got in the way
21:52:13 <oerjan> fizzie: it is not polite to do other changes while someone is trying to edit a file hth
21:52:19 <Taneb> https://gist.github.com/Taneb/ed9bb3db765d16bf6c3f
21:52:33 <elliott> oerjan: you could just unpack a ghc/hp tarball probably
21:52:37 <Taneb> (it was for the CTF today)
21:52:52 <Taneb> (input must begin with an ASCII digit and be newline-terminated)
21:53:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
21:54:00 <oerjan> why does `! glass need a cache anyway.
21:54:32 <HackEgo> The ! command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
21:54:49 <Taneb> (only two teams solved the brainfuck challenge and the other team only solved it for some inputs)
21:55:12 <elliott> oerjan: you can store things in it i think
21:57:16 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: HackEgo used to have ghc but then it moved servers.
21:57:52 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't think I was at least consciously doing any changes.
21:57:59 <oerjan> so there are probably still broken haskell-based commands in it. unless they were all statically linked.
21:58:12 <oerjan> fizzie: yeah `! glass has a cache for some reason.
21:58:22 <fizzie> `! glass {M[mxA!yO!a<1>=b<0>=c<20>=/ccc*<1>xs.?=b*y(on).?" "yo.?ba*aa*b*xa.?==\]}
21:58:23 <HackEgo> 0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181
21:59:04 <fizzie> Even though it took me an absurd amount of attempts to get that written, as the version history shows.
21:59:18 <oerjan> i vaguely do seem to recall glass used to have some preserved state, yeah
21:59:25 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, I started learning Racket this week and I know this is shocking but I think I like it a lot
21:59:43 <oerjan> fizzie: put it on the wiki
22:00:09 <fizzie> There is already a Fibonacci sequence in the wiki, though a lot longer.
22:00:50 <fizzie> Arguably more proper, there's a "f" function and it uses locals instead of object-scope variables even though those involve (_x) in place of x.
22:01:09 <Taneb> Bicyclidine, it's like Scheme
22:01:23 <Taneb> I think it's like Scheme in the way that GHC is like Haskell
22:01:36 <Bicyclidine> i think ghc is more standards conformant than racket
22:02:04 <Bicyclidine> racket kinda does its own thing, i mean it used to be "PLT Scheme" but now it ain't
22:02:33 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/command/or interp command/' ibin/help
22:02:40 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
22:02:59 <oerjan> to only affect the second line
22:03:21 <Sgeo> Standard HAskell should just run directly with GHC, right? Standard Scheme isn't always valid Racket code
22:03:29 <oerjan> sort of redundant there, but i just kept editing my first version
22:03:36 <Sgeo> Racket uses iimmutable cons cells
22:03:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: actually ghc deviates from the standard in some minor points.
22:04:26 <oerjan> and 7.10 will get far worse, although hopefully it will come with a new standard version.
22:05:11 <oerjan> (the main point until now is that ghc drops Eq and Show as superclasses of Num.)
22:05:57 <ais523> I can understand Num not requiring Show
22:06:04 <ais523> but Num not requiring Eq's a bit hard to get my head around
22:06:06 <ais523> is it for things like CReal?
22:06:26 <oerjan> i think there is some discussion going on about exactly _how_ much 7.10 will change. someone started protesting the Prelude changes.
22:06:42 <oerjan> ais523: yeah and also for things like Num b => Num (a -> b)
22:07:27 <ais523> how popular are non-ghc Haskell impls?
22:07:29 <oerjan> elliott: yeah, but there's also a plan to move Foldable and Traversable to the Prelude, which has caused controversy. i'd know more but all the golfing recently has caused my r/haskell reading to slip :P
22:07:35 <ais523> popular enough for anyone to care about compatibility with them?
22:07:49 <elliott> oerjan: is it just the regular "nothing should change ever"
22:08:00 <elliott> oh, is it because it'd make foldr more polymorphic and so errors and such?
22:08:06 <Taneb> Some of my friends and I were going to write one, though
22:08:16 <oerjan> elliott: well they're planning to change the types of foldr in the Prelude, for example.
22:08:17 <ais523> Taneb: a Haskell impl? interesting
22:08:26 <Sgeo> Probably the best thing about Racket is the emphasis on error reporting
22:08:33 <elliott> Bicyclidine: like in mathematics.
22:08:38 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: pointwise addition, multiplication etc.
22:08:39 <Taneb> ais523, on the basis that YHC is unmaintained, we were going to make a New York Haskell Compiler
22:08:46 <ais523> Bicyclidine: f + g = \x.(f x + g x)
22:08:55 <ais523> Taneb: is this purely just for the name?
22:09:06 <Taneb> And, well, we're in York
22:09:27 <Bicyclidine> every passing moment i grow more and moe sure that maths notation is the world's enemy
22:09:35 <Sgeo> If I did lenses in Factor, I'm going to need to do them in reverse
22:09:48 <Bicyclidine> anyway someone define the inner product space of square integrable functions in haskell for me, thx
22:09:58 <Taneb> So it is /a/ York Haskell Compiler
22:10:01 <ais523> Bicyclidine: my notation was verity, at least the bit past the =
22:10:04 <Taneb> And it's new relative to YHC
22:10:29 <ais523> how does a lambda look in Haskell? \x -> ?
22:11:20 <Bicyclidine> i think i'm just grumpy because vector calculus notation is really stupid on several levels
22:11:33 <Bicyclidine> btw don't use the word "grumpy" on twitter, i have two different grumpy cats spam-following me
22:11:42 <zzo38> I want to invent a kind of Z-machine terminal codes and then write the interpreter so that it optionally can use them. I wanted to know how to write C program that can connect to other program using its stdin/stdout and interpret them in this way.
22:11:46 <Sgeo> > (\(id -> x) -> x) 4
22:11:52 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: btw the pointwise Num thing can be extended to (Num a, Applicative f) => Num (f a) hth
22:12:10 <Bicyclidine> i'm so glad we have a strongly typed language to do all our duck typing in
22:12:20 <Sgeo> ais523: view patterns
22:12:21 <ais523> you can have strong duck types
22:12:26 <ais523> Sgeo: that doesn't help
22:12:50 <Sgeo> (id -> x) is a pattern that runs id thingtomatch and then matches that against x
22:12:55 <Sgeo> So, equivalent to x
22:12:56 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: lambdabot _used_ to have the Num b => Num (a -> b) instance, but it was removed, i think they must have considered it too confusing
22:13:14 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> a1 -> t))
22:13:14 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1123’
22:13:14 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> a2 -> t),
22:13:58 <Bicyclidine> exterior product would be good too let's get this algebra motherfuckery goin
22:14:10 <shachaf> @let import Data.NumInstances
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22:14:52 <Sgeo> Are these @let imports channel scoped?
22:14:57 <Sgeo> Or user scoped?
22:15:04 <Sgeo> Just hoping that it's not bot scoped
22:15:37 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: for an inner product of (a -> b) you need your a to be a finite type, like a Bounded Enum.
22:15:42 <drdanmaku> does anyone know q? or k, i guess?
22:15:51 <drdanmaku> this just hit hacker news: http://www.kparc.com/$/edit.k
22:16:12 <drdanmaku> apparently that file implements a "text editor", for some definition of text editor
22:17:13 <Bicyclidine> drdanmaku: apl is notoriously terse http://catpad.net/michael/apl/
22:17:28 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: well a is just your list of coordinate indices, really
22:17:29 <Bicyclidine> k is one of a few languages based on it but not using the weird fuckin character set
22:17:31 <drdanmaku> yes, i've seen it before, but i was wondering if anyone here actually knew it
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22:17:43 <Bicyclidine> i know a tiny bit. i have a copy of the book somewhere
22:18:04 <Sgeo> Bot changed name and prefix
22:18:18 <Sgeo> [ 1 2 3 + 4 5 6
22:18:31 <Sgeo> Bicyclidine: I just saw it in use today I think
22:18:41 <Bicyclidine> i think if apl used prefix or postfix notation i'd have a chance of understanding it
22:18:44 <drdanmaku> someone did bring up the point that bugs have been reliably correlated with LOC
22:18:55 <drdanmaku> but edit.k seems...i don't know if i want to go that far *-*
22:19:15 <boily> APL is kind of like somewhat prefix.
22:19:26 <Bicyclidine> yeah and that's more confusing than actually prefix, you know?
22:19:30 <Sgeo> shachaf: it's bot scoped.
22:19:47 <Bicyclidine> i had a prof once who found apl really inspiring
22:19:59 <Bicyclidine> he does automata fpgas and wrote sort in vax microcode
22:20:00 <boily> Bicyclidine: unless properly documented and commented and explained, APL is impossible to read.
22:20:21 <boily> automata fpga? I fail to grasp the link between the two concepts.
22:20:53 <Bicyclidine> uh, some kind of general purpose processor based on spatially coordinated automata... i hvaen't looked at it in a while.
22:21:23 <boily> nope, not helping hth
22:21:27 <quintopia> boily: one of these days we'll figure out a way to be online at the same time for more than a handful of minutes, eh?
22:21:54 <drdanmaku> so the k people are implementing a "kOS" with graphics and input and stuff, that is a little exciting if only for the weird factor
22:22:02 <boily> quintopia: indeed. we ought to synchronize our ircing. also, did you just canadian-eh me?
22:22:29 <quintopia> it's not canadian anymore! anyone can do it now!
22:23:01 <quintopia> well, i cannot get online during the hours you can, so i think it is not possible
22:23:45 <boily> I could be having had up stayed late, but the last few weeks were a little bit overworking.
22:23:52 <Bicyclidine> ...actually he was only there for five months, random
22:24:21 <boily> quintopia: we could. like this weekend there's nothing special, so about 9am~9pm.
22:24:38 <oerjan> we in trondheim don't want none of your imperialist canadianism, sjø
22:24:48 <Bicyclidine> http://www.cellmatrix.com/entryway/entryway/core.html there we go
22:24:53 <quintopia> boily: i will probably find a period of time between those hours tomorrow
22:25:06 <boily> oerjan: sjø? is that like «tsé»?
22:25:38 <FireFly> APL ought to be simple-ish to read since it only has two (IIRC) levels of precedence
22:25:47 <oerjan> it's supposedly a contraction of "ser du ~ you see", i think
22:25:54 <boily> quintopia: otherwise, I'm there Mon-Fri 6am~7am and 7pm~9pm, Sat-Sun Random~Random.
22:26:15 <boily> oerjan: tsé → tu sais → you know → y'know.
22:26:30 <nys> mao tstung
22:26:42 <boily> si seulement c'était aussi simple...
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22:27:50 <oerjan> boily: ok so essentially similar
22:28:44 <boily> oerjan: that one really is spelled like that. (or with an hyphen?)
22:30:08 <boily> oh. “Tsetse include all the species in the genus Glossina, which are generally placed in their own family, Glossinidae.”
22:30:14 * boily looks at Bicyclidine
22:30:17 <quintopia> boily: i'm asleep 6am-7am mon-fri, and at work mon-thurs 7pm-9pm. 7pm-9pm friday would be possible if i had no social life :P
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22:31:00 <elliott> drdanmaku: I know some things about K
22:31:03 <elliott> drdanmaku: I know J better
22:31:08 <boily> ah, social life... even Taneb yielded to having a social life.
22:31:20 <elliott> sadly the HN comments on that story are the predictable boring complaints about unreadability when I saw it
22:31:43 <drdanmaku> elliott: yeah, the HN thread is useless, but i'm still interested in K
22:32:05 <drdanmaku> i did find https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/
22:32:23 <quintopia> boily: if you could just get on from work :P
22:32:24 <drdanmaku> elliott: that article seemed to claim the k interpreter "outperformed" c, do you know how that could be the case?
22:32:27 <elliott> drdanmaku: yes. it is difficult to play with K because everything is buried under things costing trillions of dollars or whatever.
22:32:36 * FireFly remembers a quote about K and its implementation fitting into a screenful of C (at one point)
22:33:13 <drdanmaku> also it doesn't help that the C implementation of Kona is written in the style of K
22:33:18 <drdanmaku> e.g. https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/blob/master/src/0.c
22:33:23 <elliott> drdanmaku: because the K code and the C code would do different things, basically... you could write the equivalent C just as well but language implementations can optimise things like tight inner loops of operations and make efficient patterns idiomatic and natural for certain use-cases
22:33:34 <Bicyclidine> http://archive.vector.org.uk/art10501320 mentions the C thing
22:33:35 <drdanmaku> i don't know how i'm going to learn anything about this language if even the impl is unreadable :<
22:33:44 <elliott> drdanmaku: actually that code looks nothing like the true K style, imo
22:34:05 <elliott> drdanmaku: http://www.nsl.com/papers/origins.htm
22:34:33 <elliott> http://www.nsl.com/ is generally a nice resource
22:34:53 <FireFly> That snippet is also on the J page: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/Incunabulum
22:35:39 <elliott> that interpreter fragment isn't actually that hard to read, you just have to spend a little bit of time familiarising yourself with the definitions it's using first
22:36:00 <Bicyclidine> i still have nightmares about chaitin apl lisp, ok
22:36:07 <boily> quintopia: I am also googlehangoutable, which probably is the best way to chat with me on Monday nights.
22:36:27 <boily> (and during the day, but then you'd have to find a way to find my work e-mail address :P)
22:36:54 <boily> (which isn't very hard to find, and or reconstruct.)
22:37:16 <elliott> drdanmaku: anyway, J and K have a lot of similarities (though they are by no means identical), J isn't open source but it is freely available unlike the K stuff, http://jsoftware.com/, and it has a pretty nice graphical environment with a lot of interactive-ish tutorials and good documentation
22:38:13 <drdanmaku> what's the main difference between them? i'm probably going to stick with K/Kona because it's open source
22:38:17 <FireFly> J is open-source actually, since 2012 IIRC
22:38:28 <FireFly> The source-code is GPL-licensed nowadays
22:38:43 <FireFly> http://www.jsoftware.com/source.htm
22:39:05 <elliott> drdanmaku: I wonder if Kona actually implements, e.g. the GUI stuff that many K programs use.
22:39:16 <elliott> it may not be the best thing to learn K with
22:39:46 <drdanmaku> a language environment aimed at financiers is going to be hard to play with for the reasons you mentioned above, though
22:40:01 <elliott> J/K don't really have that much of a language/implementation divide, so unofficial interpreters might not really be what you want
22:40:05 <drdanmaku> that's unfortunate, it looked interesting
22:40:14 <elliott> drdanmaku: yeah :) you can find a copy of an older version, K3, if you poke around enough
22:40:20 <elliott> J is a lot more accessible
22:40:44 <FireFly> There's also #jsoftware for J and other APL-family languages, by the way
22:50:57 <Taneb> How much discussion of APL itself is there on #jsoftware?
22:57:02 <oerjan> they have to find a font that supports the discussion first.
23:12:25 <FireFly> One of the people there knows only APL at least
23:13:18 <FireFly> Though most of the discussion is about J, when there is any discussion at all
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23:55:59 <Sgeo> Is it really too much to want both a well-curated app store and the option to go outside it?
23:58:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: Well, I think it is a good idea, at least.
23:58:54 <Sgeo> Apple fights against option to go outside it, Android marketplace is not really well maintained