00:00:30 <Sgeo> I was hoping that the wtf was the W3Schools site
00:00:32 <fizzie> We discussed that the other month.
00:01:00 <int-e> they did forget the "FILE_NOT_FOUND" result though.
00:01:01 <Sgeo> At least those strings are truthy and "" is falsey
00:01:29 <Sgeo> Actually, that could be worse... it might act like a boolean for a little while
00:01:35 <fizzie> You really have to work at it to get more than a "maybe" out of Chrome, since so many formats support all kinds of unlikely codecs.
00:02:58 <fizzie> Sometimes if you specify the codec it will say "probably", e.g. for 'audio/webm;codecs="vorbis"'.
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00:04:45 <int-e> hmm "this combination does not make sense but we'll take our chances anyway?"
00:05:44 <int-e> nah, that's not it.
00:06:14 <fizzie> audio/webm is officially only Vorbis, anyway, so the codec specification is slightly superfluous.
00:07:00 <int-e> I'm stupidly mixing up "maybe
00:07:43 <fizzie> "Generally, a user agent should never return "probably" for a type that allows the codecs parameter if that parameter is not present."
00:08:11 <int-e> makes sense, actually
00:10:01 <int-e> But nevertheless, I find those return values ridiculous. If they wanted to express levels of certainty, why didn't they specify to return a float between 0 and 1?
00:10:53 <fizzie> What are your feelings on "0 but true"?
00:11:02 <int-e> Then at least I could probe all the types I have and pick the one that the browser considers best.
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00:13:13 <fizzie> No, I meant the Perl handling of the string "0 but true".
00:13:16 <Lymia> <Sgeo> I love Java, especially how Java EE follows all best practices. "Returns an array containing all of the Cookie objects the client sent with this request. This method returns null if no cookies were sent."
00:13:29 <Lymia> Even if you wanted efficiency
00:13:41 <Lymia> You can't spare a constant zero-length array so you don't make your users cry?
00:13:54 <Lymia> I bet the thought process was "oh, we should special case the zero case, our one-or-more code doesn't work"
00:14:04 <Lymia> Then someone's brain broke and put "return null" there instead of the sensible thing.
00:14:23 <ais523> fizzie: it's a reasonable hack that takes something that could be done anyway, and tweaks the warnings system to match common practice
00:15:02 <int-e> Lymia: didn't you see the sarcastic smiley! (I knew I forgot something.)
00:18:04 <int-e> fizzie: I'm not too happy with perl's idea that the string "0" is false.
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00:18:54 <int-e> but "00" isn't. Heh.
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00:22:27 <zzo38> I don't like that either (and PHP is bad at those kind of things too)
00:28:10 <zzo38> My opinion is best is "" is false and "0" is true
00:49:51 <Sgeo> "" and "0" as booleans should be mu
00:50:12 <Sgeo> Also, if I hate cold weather, how bad of an idea is a trip to Svalbard
00:50:30 <Sgeo> Do they have hot showers in Svalbard?
00:52:06 <Sgeo> Aren't there Norway people in here?
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01:24:37 <Sgeo> http://vindinium.org/ would a client for humans be legal?
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01:36:38 <Sgeo> If the worst news I had today was just that my originally desired trip to the eclipse was fully booked, I would be happy
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02:36:50 <Sgeo> Anyways... which is colder? Svalbard or Alaska?
02:37:40 <elliott> is this why you wanted to know whether iceland had subways :p
02:38:47 <Sgeo> That was when I was under the impression that the Iceland trip wasn't fully booked
02:39:12 <Sgeo> Eclipse from plane + aurora borealis sounds ideal
02:39:24 <Sgeo> s/Iceland/Faroe Islands/
02:46:56 <Sgeo> So, choices are try for eclipse+aurora in Svalbard, or just settle for aurora in Alaska
02:47:13 <Sgeo> Don't want to try for eclipse on the land of the Faroe Islands, heard there's bad weather
02:50:26 <Sgeo> "Armed guards will be on hand in case a polar bear should wander near and we provide warm drinks to keep the cold from your bones. "
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02:55:34 <Sgeo> Oh, the Svalbard trip I was looking at is sold out too
02:56:47 <Sgeo> Or... actually, might only be the option with flight from Oslo
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03:01:29 <elliott> travelling to svalbard but avoiding other places due to bad weather...
03:04:03 <Sgeo> clouds are worse than being cold, when it comes to viewing a solar eclipse
03:04:38 <Sgeo> I can only hope the armed guards know what they're doing
03:06:09 <elliott> "armed guards" might be referring to the panserbjørne...
03:07:03 <Sgeo> armoured bears?
03:11:47 <elliott> His Dark Materials reference. sorry.
03:13:07 <Sgeo> Ah. I thought you were referring to something real, like some sort of governmental anti-bear patrol, which happened to have the same name as some His Dark Materials thing
03:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rodolvertice * New user account
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03:44:39 <ais523> wow, I just got spam saying (NOT A SPAM) in the subject line
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05:39:26 <zzo38> I have a book titled "Pope-Pourri". It inclueds a list of some saints and their specialties, which include: communists; protection from fools, clowns, and idiots; protection from freethinkers; stuttering; vampires; children who are late in learning to walk; sick chickens; servants who break things; those who are insane...
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06:09:59 <centrinia> I can convert Brainfuck to Whitespace: https://gist.github.com/Centrinia/2836820aaf12e048e320
06:10:40 <coppro> I was hoping it was written in befunge :(
06:22:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40711&oldid=40710 * CosmoConsole * (+33)
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06:27:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40712&oldid=40664 * CosmoConsole * (+14) adding [[FakeASM]]
06:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40713&oldid=40656 * CosmoConsole * (+46) [[FakeASM]]
06:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40714&oldid=40711 * CosmoConsole * (+1) /* FakeASM2 */ I hate editing w/ mobile
06:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40715&oldid=40714 * CosmoConsole * (+1) /* Debug mode */ typos. my only weakness
06:40:02 <myname> these change messages are quite entertaining
06:40:37 <myname> at least i know what to do once i become a villan
06:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40716&oldid=40715 * CosmoConsole * (+2) /* Instruction list */ WSD fix
06:48:45 <Sgeo> http://thejh.net/misc/website-terminal-copy-paste
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07:28:01 <oerjan> <b_jonas> int-e: I've sent a solution so now you won't be the first <-- ah, i'd been wondering if "jonas" was you...
07:32:18 <oerjan> oops, the hungarians are breeding
07:33:35 <elliott> I think the hungarians have been breeding for a very long time
07:35:36 <elliott> they're breeding in here? ew.
07:37:40 <oerjan> i see you have also discovered the danger of hinting to int-e that things are possible
07:39:59 <oerjan> centrinia: is that a whitespace program
07:40:02 <elliott> oerjan: have you been bitten by that too?
07:40:26 <centrinia> I converted a Brainfuck program to that. :p
07:40:37 <centrinia> https://gist.github.com/Centrinia/2836820aaf12e048e320 :p
07:41:21 <oerjan> elliott: only slightly, i tried to obliquely hint that there was a more efficient way of making local definitions in golfing, and he quickly guessed i was referring to pattern guards
07:44:03 <oerjan> somehow, though, i've yet to actually make an optimal golf solution that uses them
07:45:09 <oerjan> hm yet another person who prefers explicit braces in haskell. i think you're more common than people claim.
07:45:47 <ais523> Haskell benefits from not having to be whitespace-sensitive
07:46:02 <oerjan> elliott: see centrinia's gist
07:46:20 <ais523> elliott: do /I/ get to complain at /you/ for not following links?
07:46:29 <ais523> that would seem very out of character for both of us
07:46:58 <ais523> hmm, that's not doing the polynomial optimization, is it?
07:47:19 <ais523> also, github has a big signup advert at the bottom of gists too
07:47:28 <elliott> I didn't realise it was in response to the link
07:47:30 <ais523> it annoys and depresses me that they are this desperate for users
07:47:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: I might be inconsistent about what nick I use on anagolf among "jonas" and "b_jonas"
07:47:41 <b_jonas> I should try to stick to one
07:47:48 <elliott> ais523: it's not really an ad so much as the submit a comment form
07:48:08 <ais523> the homepage is definitely an ad, though
07:48:17 <b_jonas> yeah, I'm definitely inconsistent, damn
07:48:40 <b_jonas> but I think if you wait a few more days, some of the regulars on anagolf will submit a shorter perl
07:48:46 <elliott> well, okay, it is an ad too, but it serves a purpose
07:50:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: I prefer explicit braces in haskell too
07:52:52 <b_jonas> mind you, with all the pattern matching in function heads and the pointfree style, some haskell code contains very few braces, explicit or implicit
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08:00:26 <zzo38> Article about BANCStar says "Not known if strings index from 0 or from 1". I believe it is from 1.
08:01:10 <Sgeo> There are things known about BANCStar?
08:02:22 <ais523> Sgeo: there's been huge archaelogical investigation into BANCstar
08:02:29 <ais523> I'm not sure what people are using as sources
08:02:50 <Sgeo> I once completely failed to get the presumed current owners to give any documentation
08:04:04 <zzo38> This means that "10829,2446,22245,22012" in C16LNAPP.SCN would set the "Financial Summary?" variable to "N", which seems sensible given the context.
08:04:58 <Sgeo> experimentation?
08:05:06 <Sgeo> Someone has a BANCstar interpreter?
08:05:22 <zzo38> As far as anyone knows, nobody has an implementation.
08:05:28 <zzo38> Because, it got lost.
08:07:56 <Sgeo> What if the top secret proprietary information in the sample ends up getting revealed?
08:08:25 <zzo38> Sgeo: I already figured out some of it actually
08:09:54 <oerjan> centrinia: looking briefly over it, i think your optimize will not handle >++
08:10:23 <oerjan> because the Advance gets stuck between the Increments
08:11:57 <zzo38> I am guessing that command 3100 will result in an error (requiring you to retype the input) if the condition isn't true.
08:12:08 <centrinia> oerjan: It outputs p[1] += 2; p+=1;
08:13:09 <centrinia> But the optimize function does need some work.
08:14:25 <centrinia> The Whitespace output is not very optimal. :">
08:15:42 <oerjan> ais523 pointed out you weren't doing "polynomial" optimization
08:15:49 <oerjan> but that's fancy stuff imo
08:16:31 <centrinia> I guess it does linear optimization.
08:17:49 <centrinia> It converts while(*p) { *p--; p[i1] += inc1; } to p[i1] += inc1 * *p; *p = 0;
08:17:54 <ais523> oerjan: it's needed to be competitive with the better BF optimizers
08:18:11 <ais523> meanwhile, RLE optimization is pretty basic, even fungot does that
08:18:11 <fungot> ais523: but cyrus! are you leaving! nothing here using the dna from animals, only the 3 entities you saw will help you leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
08:18:32 <oerjan> oh your "isStationary" is basically the same as "checking all loops are balanced", but it needs to be applied after the optimizations that move Advance?
08:19:15 <elliott> I think some kind of de-tapeification optimisation would be interesting.
08:19:24 <elliott> something that tries and extracts underlying variables and maybe even data structures.
08:19:48 <zzo38> The wiki says that 2999 introduces a new page. I think rather, a prompt with the response field's position being given as a negative number ends a page.
08:19:57 <centrinia> elliott: Wouldn't that involve dry runs of the program?
08:19:58 <zzo38> (This makes it even less clear what "stop code" really means.)
08:20:23 <elliott> centrinia: I don't see why
08:20:36 <centrinia> oerjan: isStationary is used in very experimental parts of the code. :p
08:20:58 <centrinia> Does polynomial optimization work on something like this? http://codepad.org/BWiQokT1
08:21:44 <Jafet> elliott: that's just called decompilation
08:22:10 <mroman> Sgeo: jloughry may have one @BANCStar
08:22:21 <oerjan> centrinia: i think it can handle all balanced loops in principle?
08:22:36 <mroman> But the last thing I've heard from him was him trying to rescue something from a floppy disk
08:22:49 <mroman> which he told me was somewhat corrupt.
08:22:56 <mroman> Since then I haven't heard from him again.
08:23:49 <mroman> I've also tracked the company down that now acquired (through various steps) the company behind BANCStar
08:23:56 <mroman> but they haven't answered to my e-mails
08:26:27 <mroman> Apparentely there also was a developer manual that they have written for themselves
08:26:46 <mroman> (They reverse engineered bancstar and documented what they have found out)
08:27:14 <mroman> However, he couldn't find a copy of that.
08:28:00 <mroman> So I don't know how to get more information about it anymore ;)
08:28:28 <mroman> the only idea I have left is ask jloughry about other people that worked with BANCStar
08:28:40 <mroman> (i.e. work colleagues of him)
08:28:52 <mroman> and then contact them and ask if they somehow have something laying around :D
08:29:32 <oerjan> <elliott> I think there might be some shorthand to set stdout to binary/latin-1? <-- we compared those, setBinaryMode ... True is actually longer than using setEncoding ... utf8
08:30:00 <oerjan> and utf8 is shorter than char8
08:30:03 <elliott> > (length "setBinaryMode ...$1==1", length "setEncoding ... utf8")
08:30:04 <zzo38> mroman: Well, a lot of things I figured out are contrary to what is on the wiki and I am making a list of them on the talk page right now.
08:30:24 <elliott> okay so it can't compete I guess
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08:31:07 <oerjan> oh forgot the h prexix, it's hSetBinaryMode and hSetEncoding
08:38:28 <centrinia> Which Brainfuck compilers do full-blown polynomial optimization?
08:38:53 <Sgeo> polynomial optimization?
08:38:54 <elliott> https://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
08:39:07 <ais523> now I'm wondering "what's the shortest true in Prolog"
08:39:09 <Sgeo> I know some trivial optimizations
08:39:25 <ais523> basically because you might be able to use ! but it has horrendous side effects
08:39:43 <centrinia> esotope generated this: http://codepad.org/gXW1K2ma
08:39:53 <Sgeo> Eliminating -+ and the [ after ]... and <> etc
08:39:56 <centrinia> I suspect that the loop can be completely removed.
08:40:21 <oerjan> ais523: isn't in some sense the empty predicate true
08:40:50 <oerjan> but i guess that cannot be used everywhere
08:40:54 <ais523> oerjan: no, the empty predicate is fail; the simplest possible nonempty predicate is true
08:40:59 <ais523> or, well, I see what you mean
08:40:59 <Sgeo> Oh, BF->C, not BF->BF
08:41:09 <ais523> I guess you could just do "t." and then use t instead of true
08:41:11 <elliott> centrinia: note that there are two esotopes :/
08:41:16 <ais523> that's three characters even if you only use it once
08:41:49 <centrinia> elliott: That was the one you linked. :(
08:41:52 <oerjan> ais523: well i also mean, that many times when you would want to use t, you can just leave it out
08:42:12 <ais523> oerjan: yes, but the same is true of booleans in lots of other cases
08:44:14 <oerjan> centrinia: hm indeed, so then it doesn't do full polynomials in that case
08:46:54 <oerjan> mind you, while i _think_ you can optimize all balanced loops into direct formulas, you are going to need modulus arithmetic and stuff in general
08:47:05 <oerjan> especially if cells are bounded wrapping
08:48:17 <oerjan> that is not true. you can do exponentiation in a balanced way, i should know since that was the only way i saw to convert input properly for 3-cell bf.
08:48:34 <oerjan> so there are probably limits
08:49:06 <oerjan> (i have _still_ not found a way to do proper output, mind you.)
08:51:11 <oerjan> centrinia: [->[->++<]>[-<+>]<<] will multiply the second cell by 2 to the power of the first, essentially
08:51:21 <oerjan> (with 3rd cell starting as zero)
08:51:37 <oerjan> so it's not describably by just a polynomial
08:53:39 <oerjan> centrinia: also, i once proved that brainfuck is turing-complete with just 3 unbounded cells, you can find the details at http://esolangs.org/Collatz_function
08:54:04 <centrinia> oerjan: http://codepad.org/10Gxjwwm
08:56:16 <oerjan> centrinia: yes, and that still contains a loop. also it's not very optimal even inside the loop, especially lines 4 and 5 should be easily combined?
08:58:03 <centrinia> This is equivalent: http://codepad.org/B8gxa2Hc
09:00:19 <ais523> oerjan: does three-cell collatz in BF use unbounded loops?
09:00:45 <oerjan> so that's even stronger proof you cannot make a formula
09:02:44 <oerjan> centrinia: that's a lot of duplication of code just to avoid having p[2] = 0 in the inner loop
09:05:19 <oerjan> although i was really intending for p[2] == 0 to start with
09:05:37 <centrinia> But my optimizer doesn't know that. :(
09:05:47 <centrinia> It doesn't know that p[2] has not been touched.
09:06:34 <oerjan> i recall back when pikhq did similar stuff, he optimized the whole program with the assumption things started as 0.
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09:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40717&oldid=40092 * Zzo38 * (+1725)
09:09:35 <oerjan> i think he had a dictionary of cells with known values
09:09:45 <oerjan> or something like that
09:10:01 <zzo38> I still cannot quite figure out "combination goto"
09:15:05 <oerjan> fizzie: what is "chocobi-C"
09:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40718&oldid=40717 * Zzo38 * (+96)
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09:24:27 <oerjan> <elliott> similarly you can strip out the final newline if you are submitting the program by upload, though I don't know whether that's still counted or not <-- it's even easier on the form, of course
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09:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40719 * Rdebath * (+287) /* Um Esoteric Language ? */ new section
09:58:53 <J_Arcane> http://www.windytan.com/2014/10/visualizing-hex-bytes-with-unicode-emoji.html
10:16:25 <b_jonas> isn't http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lenguage sort of like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary except compressed more efficiently?
10:16:51 <b_jonas> and wasn't there a third brainfuck variant simliar to these, but with exclamation marks?
10:17:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Where I copied it from, though I guess you already guessed that.
10:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40720&oldid=38803 * B jonas * (+15) /* See also */
10:18:15 <b_jonas> ah right, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary#See_also actually links to a few others
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10:38:24 <oerjan> like unary, except compressed more efficiently, sounds like a plan.
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10:41:00 <fizzie> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Golunar is very much that, too.
10:43:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that, and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary links to http://esolangs.org/wiki/MGIFOS and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ellipsis as well, which are all variants of the same thing
10:43:25 <fizzie> Yes, though Golunar adds another layer of pointlessness.
10:43:32 <mroman> Intel doesn't publish all bugs in its processors
10:43:44 <fizzie> The provided converter doesn't even construct the corresponding unary string. :/
10:43:47 <mroman> some information can only be obtained under an NDA agreement for OEMs
10:43:50 <b_jonas> this is why creating new brainfuck variants should be banned
10:44:54 <oerjan> mroman: just more evidence for my theory that we're toast the moment the first real cyber war starts
10:48:02 <mroman> That's pretty much clear, yes.
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10:48:56 <mroman> I guess it shouldn't be really hard for a country to ruin another countries economy just by doing some cyber attacks on some companies and infrastructure in that country
10:50:03 <mroman> Cyber war oughta be much cheaper than conventional war?
10:50:21 <mroman> Military equipment (bombs, ships, tanks) are really expensive.
10:51:04 <mroman> that being said: You can have the cleverest hacker and try to hack some other bigger country
10:51:16 <mroman> chances are they won't respond with a cyber war but with a few drone strikes
10:51:32 <mroman> I'm not sure who's better off then.
10:52:23 <mroman> (by cyber war I mean "war" not the "spy" thing that's going on already anyway)
10:57:45 <mroman> fungot: How do you think about cyber war?
10:57:45 <fungot> mroman: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! crono...! there was nothing i could do! we must get help from guardia kingdom, and my ultimate creation, the mighty lavos! haahahahaha! fools! i only ride with him, you are gentle, isn't he?
10:57:53 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
10:57:55 <mroman> fungot: How do you think about cyber war?
10:57:56 <fungot> mroman: the second was mental. engaged to be married to an older and handsome t-rex to confront their greatest fear: becoming separated from each other and then make a mental note, i'm going back to bed, falling asleep, and this world to get worked!
10:58:29 <mroman> fungot: there was a first and second cyber war?
10:58:29 <fungot> mroman: t-rex, that sounds like a crazy friday as weekend, why not monday too?
10:58:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:58:54 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
10:58:58 <Taneb> I don't really know what I'm doing in this vision/graphics practical
10:58:59 <fungot> mroman: oats sat and listened. that's not what i wanted out of life. sooner or later, i've got to hand it to petulia. she spotted a gap in the things they said.
10:59:12 <Taneb> It seems to be saying I can use MATLAB to turn an image into some pretty graphs
10:59:19 <Taneb> Without explaining why the graphs are useful
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11:03:50 <boily> Taneb: they are pretty. that's where their usefulness lies.
11:04:52 <boily> (seriousness of proposition depends on which kind of class and/or department this is.)
11:07:28 <boily> fungot: bon matin. enjoying some gapspotting?
11:07:28 <fungot> boily: " i was only a sweeper's shrine!' and use the corpse as a swing.
11:08:21 <boily> corpse swingin', gap spottin', shrine sweepin' fungot.
11:08:22 <fungot> boily: he was vaguely aware that there was this about agnes's shape. it was of a huge wooden horse. more correctly, argument.
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11:13:48 <boily> `relcome centrinia
11:14:25 <boily> didn't we have a backup `relcome somewhere?
11:14:44 <Taneb> Hi, centrinia, this is the channel for Esoteric Programming Languages! Check out our wiki at http://www.esolangs.org
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11:14:57 <Taneb> If you wanted the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net
11:15:11 <fizzie> Taneb: Too monochromatic.
11:15:21 <fizzie> Also there is a backup welcome in fungot, but no backup relcome.
11:15:28 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you be giving me any lip.
11:15:29 <fungot> fizzie: the show must go on"! what's so special about lord hong, watching the world go by. when they were in some dark alley, his stomach was full of this big, solid men, the kind of commander who comes up with all the treasure we want,' whispered bilious.
11:16:19 <fizzie> I think I tried fitting a relcome in, but the low ul/bf output length limits combined with the color codes made it inpractical.
11:16:36 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball
11:16:44 <fungot> just_testing: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of es ...
11:17:04 <fizzie> See, even without colors it's incomplete.
11:17:30 <boily> Taneb: you should go the myndzi way, and embrace your inner cyborg.
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14:16:37 <mroman> why does "git add *.java" add recursively
14:16:42 <mroman> but "git add *.sh" does not?
14:18:35 <ion> You might be using a shell that does expansions weirdly. It may expand *.java to "*.java" when no files happened to match (instead of an error) but *.sh to "foo.sh" "bar.sh" "baz.sh" when files happened to match.
14:19:40 <ion> “setopt bad_pattern” to make zsh behave nicer.
14:19:58 <ion> Wait, no, setopt nomatch.
14:42:19 <Gregor> git does its own globbing? >_O
14:42:33 <Gregor> Is there no depth of stupidity to which this tool will not sink? O_<
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15:58:50 <J_Arcane> https://gitorious.org/eternity-prj/eternityvision/source/524686c237f2f85c19b2e33a5ee5ca7a7a06a74d:Documentation/scheduler/sched-BFS.txt
16:01:17 <mroman> ion: that seems to be the thing, yes
16:06:00 <mroman> Gregor: why shouldn't git do globbing?
16:06:16 <Gregor> Because of exactly the problem you just found.
16:06:40 <mroman> if you have like 10K log files in a directory
16:06:40 <Gregor> If two tools solve the same problem in slightly different ways and present a result that makes it nonobvious which tool solved the problem, you will blame the wrong tool for the bug.
16:06:57 <mroman> because your shell will expand that to a too long command line
16:07:31 <mroman> which means I'd prefer if rm would just use *.log as a filter
16:07:45 <Gregor> The fact that globbing in the shell can cause too-long command lines is no reason to go to the DOS dark ages of globbing @_@
16:08:22 <Gregor> It's more important that its behavior be consistent than robust, especially when the expense is making robustness a problem for every conceivable tool rather than one.
16:09:24 <mroman> for all I care the OS should provide an API for that
16:10:13 <mroman> with iterator style stuff
16:10:15 <Gregor> The OS does provide an API for that, it's called glob(). But git wants its own globbing behavior, so it doesn't use glob(). Thus, it gets inconsistent behavior. If everyone used glob(), then the behavior would be the same, except that bugs are now spread across thousands of programs instead of one.
16:10:40 <mroman> so you don't run out of memory if you happen to have so many files that a char** of filenames wouldn't fit into memory
16:10:42 <Gregor> (Also there would be no way to explicitly name a file with stars in it)
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16:11:22 <mroman> some OSes don't allow * in file names anyway
16:12:16 <mroman> Did you mean "if everyone used glob() (from the OS)"
16:12:22 <mroman> or "if everyone used his own glob"?
16:12:58 <mroman> also the OS might allow to escape *
16:15:43 <mroman> fungot: are you running on a BefungeOS server?
16:15:43 <fungot> mroman: cohen shrugged, and shook his head, and strode away. now the best efforts of the official history?' said
16:18:46 <mroman> Ooknary is the same as unary but replaces 0 with Ook
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16:38:56 <mroman> promptfile->type = atoi(secondtoken); /* and convert them into */
16:39:11 <mroman> prompt_type[prompt[i].type]);
16:39:32 <mroman> if the prompt-type can be 2304
16:39:36 <mroman> wouldn't this segfault?
16:39:51 <mroman> prompt_type is a char[9]
16:40:44 <mroman> (first one is from L_RDPROM.C line 88)
16:41:02 <mroman> second is from L_REPORT.c:498
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16:42:58 <elliott> Gregor: I believe git does globbing itself because the shell can't glob inside trees and such.
16:43:04 <mroman> zzo38: prompt types are colors
16:43:29 <elliott> Gregor: not that that matters for git add.
16:43:49 <elliott> but it makes some sense if you think of git(1) as providing an interface to a filesystem that the OS/shell doesn't know about.
16:44:32 <elliott> "If everyone used glob(), then the behavior would be the same, except that bugs are now spread across thousands of programs instead of one.
16:44:37 <elliott> tbf this isn't really very compelling
16:44:41 <elliott> because this is already the case with, like, getopt
16:44:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40721&oldid=40718 * 160.85.232.177 * (+200) + prompt type
16:44:53 <elliott> (you could say that's an argument for centralising option parsing instead, though)
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17:44:36 <MDude> http://i.4cdn.org/x/1414647728741.png
17:48:15 <MDude> Oh, wrong channel.
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18:13:01 <Melvar> elliott, Gregor: Similarly, I can give globs to yum in paths to whatprovides, and in package names, neither of which are accessible to the shell. You *always* need to know which program is interpreting the glob. This is why one should set failglob if using bash.
18:13:56 <elliott> I have some sympathy for Windows' model where programs get to interpret everything.
18:14:10 <elliott> I have more sympathy for a model that moves more to the shell and lets programs hook into it better, though.
18:14:33 <elliott> (I mean, {bash,zsh}-completions is already a thing.)
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18:29:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40722&oldid=40712 * 83.101.88.18 * (+13) /* S */
18:31:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Strato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40723&oldid=40695 * 83.101.88.18 * (+42)
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19:17:50 <zzo38> I believe the BANCNova documentation contains errors too. Since, I tried to figure out from looking at the printout to see what it looks like those commands would do in the given contexts.
19:18:07 <zzo38> (I did not look at the LINK source.)
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19:26:58 <b_jonas> hmm, I gotta enjoy it while it lasts: I'm still leading http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24
19:27:19 <b_jonas> some golfer will probably easily do much shorter though
19:27:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: I wrote most of a dc solution before realizing the numbers aren't always in the same order as the input. :)
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19:28:41 <b_jonas> in fact, I think a gzipped solution will probably be shorter than mine
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19:42:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BANCStar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40724&oldid=40721 * Zzo38 * (+303)
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19:48:02 <b_jonas> I'm repeatedly submitting another ()[rand 3] solution
19:49:12 <b_jonas> waiting for the 1/27 chance
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19:54:27 <fizzie> The dc solution I had picked the thing by summing all the numbers and doing vv1-v.
19:54:40 <fizzie> That's essentially sqrt(sqrt(sqrt(sum))-1).
19:55:00 <fizzie> (With a sqrt that truncates down.)
19:55:02 <b_jonas> int-e: right... I just realized that that's two chars shorter
19:55:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: huh... which problem is that? euclidean norm?
19:56:07 <fizzie> The one you're talking about, I assume.
19:56:13 <fizzie> Make 24, and the input numbers, of course.
19:56:25 <fizzie> vv maps the sums of inputs to 1, 2 and 5, 1- goes to 0, 1 and 4, and the last v to 0, 1 and 2.
19:56:32 <b_jonas> to distinguish between the inputs
19:57:19 <b_jonas> I had a previous version that basically just did $_=<>;... /3/? second input :/8/? first input : third input
19:57:21 <int-e> how about last number modulo 3
19:57:48 <int-e> or do you need the rest of the stack to be empty?
19:58:03 <b_jonas> I did that because that was deterministic, later I changed to the less deterministic version
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19:58:44 <b_jonas> hmm... so my zlib solution is only 10 shorter than the simple solution? funny
19:58:52 <b_jonas> zlib sucks! I can compress almost as good
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19:59:04 <b_jonas> well, it's probably possible to do much better
19:59:26 <fizzie> int-e: That could work, too. I did a loop to stack them all in a register (and incidentally sum) so that I could easily then read them in the "right order", but as I mentioned it was assuming all the numbers appear in the same order in the solution as they do in the input.
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20:00:40 <b_jonas> and this time I did remember to check "open code statistics'
20:05:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40725&oldid=40719 * CosmoConsole * (+335)
21:08:49 <FreeFull> Not sure if there is a convienient library for it though
21:19:03 <fizzie> I made a real simple bash zcat thing since the Perl solution looked so sad alone.
21:19:43 <fizzie> (There's so little to compress, xz's worse.)
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21:55:42 <int-e> hmm, 218 for Perl without zlib (using $$)
21:55:46 <zzo38> I wanted to store geolocation in a version 1 UUID, but might it work to just store a part of the IP address instead of a geolocation? (This part of IP address might be used to indicate the ISP)
21:55:57 <int-e> and I won't submit, I have no energy to compete.
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22:01:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40726&oldid=40716 * CosmoConsole * (+1165)
22:08:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just take a cruise near Hawaii in 2016
22:08:39 <Sgeo> But long-term planning scares me
22:09:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40727&oldid=40726 * CosmoConsole * (-56) /* Deadfish (FakeASM 2) */ doubt that those labels were ever needed
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22:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40728&oldid=40727 * CosmoConsole * (+105) adding categories
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22:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40729&oldid=40728 * CosmoConsole * (+50) FakeASM2 is out
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22:21:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40730&oldid=40729 * CosmoConsole * (+12) /* See also */
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22:42:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CosmoConsole]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40731 * CosmoConsole * (+76) Created page with "I have nothing clever to put on my user page. == Languages == * [[FakeASM]]"
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22:50:24 <int-e> b_jonas: 205 now, no zlib, using $$, and using the input.
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23:12:31 <centrinia> Whitespace support in firmware shouldn't be that hard.
23:24:25 <FireFly> Oh, the helloworldless hello world in haskell did get submitted
23:24:39 <FireFly> 73, that's a respectable score actually :P
23:26:36 <oerjan> that's the one which uses lots of control codes
23:26:45 <coppro> oh god that's horrible
23:27:46 <oerjan> the one without (and which is based on a solution in another language, is more than 100
23:29:41 <oerjan> coppro: it's hard to do better when every _single_ output function in the Prelude, and "import", contains a forbidden character.
23:31:25 <FireFly> I thought the horrible solution was pretty great
23:31:50 <int-e> it shouldn't be hard to get rid of the control characters (other than tabs) without too many extra characters.
23:32:43 <oerjan> i suddenly got an insane idea, to do this, while still using pgmF, but without escaping haskell proper
23:32:51 * FireFly wonders why goruby has a 'h' command for printing hello world
23:32:57 <FireFly> It looks like a serious implementation
23:32:57 <oerjan> namely, "ghci" contains no forbidden chars
23:32:58 <int-e> henkma got Beligan Numbers in 69 characters, and fast ... I wonder how.
23:33:36 <ais523\unfoog> FireFly: goruby is ruby, plus an 'h' command for printing hello world
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23:33:41 <oerjan> and within ghci, :m _does_ allow you to load modules, and you can get things printed without functions
23:33:41 <int-e> oerjan: -phmF is invoked with 2 arguments and you have to produce output in the file specified by the second one; it's not a filter
23:33:52 <int-e> oerjan: so using ghci will be hard, I think.
23:34:08 <FireFly> ais523\unfoog: I see, so I guess it's not a serious ruby implementation then
23:34:18 <FireFly> Looked like one at first glance
23:34:30 <ais523\unfoog> it's serious in the sense that ruby is serious and it's a minor patch on ruby
23:35:01 <oerjan> what options _do_ ghci take hm
23:38:05 <oerjan> hm it seems you can only get it to load the file itself, which works fine, but not to do anything afterward
23:39:32 <oerjan> bah even that doesn't work, because having a nonexistent file on the command line prevents it from loading the ones which do exist
23:39:50 <oerjan> oh well, it was an idea anyway
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23:41:20 <oerjan> int-e: i'm also wondering about the belgians
23:43:28 <int-e> ok, it's not hard to make it fast, just don't use so many "read" calls.
23:43:55 <int-e> but how to do that without making the program larger ...
23:46:44 <oerjan> you mean while making it a lot _smaller_
23:46:58 <int-e> one step at a time
23:47:57 <oerjan> my second to last version is one char longer and the shortening does precisely that move of read from applying only to the original list chars to each "cycled" list char
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23:48:48 <oerjan> never submitted it though, it's 73 but you had already got that
23:50:17 <int-e> I recall you mentioning it here
23:50:47 <oerjan> well possibly, it's not the only one i haven't bothered to submit
23:52:32 <elliott> FireFly: it's not go ruby or anything
23:52:38 <elliott> it's golf ruby, it's part of the official ruby distribution I think
23:52:57 <elliott> FireFly: it got independently reinvented actually :p
23:53:08 <elliott> re: the helloworldless hello world
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23:57:58 <int-e> with the big hint that it's possible.