00:00:05 <oerjan> where: i have doubts that there ever was an implementation.
00:01:15 <oerjan> digerati's other languages GodScript and Genome aren't implemented either.
00:04:05 <oerjan> int-e: i think fungot has doubts
00:04:06 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( mm)) the one that's next month in rawley but they just gave me a
00:04:18 <oerjan> thought i was going to ping out there
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00:05:11 <oerjan> hm do none of the bots respond to /ping
00:12:50 <tswett> You know, it's never quite made sense to me that you can discover the Euclidean distance formula from simple axioms or whatever.
00:13:39 <tswett> Like, we can define distance however we want. Manhattan distance, that other kind of distance, D&D distance, whatever. What makes Euclidean distance so special?
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00:16:49 <Jafet> It has... economic significance
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00:18:13 <tswett> Ooh, I just remembered that one lovely proof of the Pythagorean theorem.
00:18:45 <int-e> you make it sound like there is only one lovely one...
00:19:17 <FireFly> What would D&D distance be?
00:19:18 <tswett> The determiner "that one" doesn't imply uniqueness.
00:19:45 <int-e> tswett: It could be read that way, though.
00:20:03 <Bicyclidine> it could also be read as a scarring indictment of nazi economic policy
00:20:46 <int-e> tswett: To be fair, all "sound" in that text message is obviously my own.
00:21:14 <tswett> FireFly: it's defined for lattice points. The distance between (0, 0) and (a, b), where 0 ≤ a ≤ b, is floor((3/2) * a + (b - a)).
00:21:35 <tswett> Which I guess is the same as floor(a / 2 + b).
00:21:42 <tswett> Anyway, that one proof.
00:22:03 <tswett> Suppose you have some triangle ABC. Let T(x) be the area of a triangle similar to ABC whose hypotenuse has length x.
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00:22:30 <tswett> T(c) is just the area of triangle ABC.
00:23:42 <tswett> T(a) is the area of triangle ADC, where D is the projection of C onto line AB.
00:23:54 <tswett> T(b) is the area of triangle DBC.
00:24:26 <tswett> Since triangle ABC is the disjoint union of triangles ADC and DBC, T(a) + T(b) = T(c).
00:24:42 <tswett> Finally, T(x) is proportional to x^2.
00:25:35 <tswett> "You know how the Pythagorean theorem is usually illustrated using three squares? Instead, illustrate it using triangles similar to the original triangle. It starts to look kind of obvious."
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00:37:06 <FreeFull> tswett: I saw it demonstrated using a weird blobby shape
00:41:07 <zzo38> There are many different proof of Pythagorean theorem.
00:44:59 <boily> the plural of proof is preef.
00:46:10 <zzo38> I have seen many different ones, including the one I made up while resting on the couch.
00:46:12 <AndoDaan> no, it's profess. As in professor.
00:55:19 <lifthrasiir> you've found a triangle with a slightly displaced apex
00:55:40 <Sgeo> http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130701021023/disney/images/5/52/Opening_bill_transparent.png
00:59:28 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: maybe it's that pyramid from discworld
01:00:09 <lifthrasiir> I guess so, just wanted to suggest the (in)flexibility of ASCII approximation
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01:11:22 <Sgeo> Apparently, until 5 days ago, a website I often go on was using PHP4
01:11:46 <Sgeo> Make that a week ago, actually
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01:13:34 <zzo38> I would like SQLite extension to do such things as manipulating MIDI files, manipulating a file system, and for accessing weather data on the internet, astronomical data, news report, and others
01:15:58 <shachaf> A pony is seen as something desirable but difficult to acquire.
01:16:22 <shachaf> pikhq is suggesting that, as long as you already want all those other things, you might as well add a pony to the list.
01:16:29 <zzo38> Well, I don't need a pony, but maybe you do.
01:16:42 <Sgeo> Doesn't Yahoo have something for ... Internet stuff?
01:17:02 <Sgeo> "The YQL (Yahoo! Query Language) platform enables you to query, filter, and combine data across the web through a single interface. It exposes a SQL-like syntax that is both familiar to developers and expressive enough for getting the right data."
01:17:15 <boily> ponies are tasty. their meat is very lean and goes well in hamburgers.
01:17:43 <Sgeo> I guess that's not an SQLite extension though
01:17:46 <zzo38> I wanted to access it through SQLite command line interface though rather than a web browser, and to be able to use it with SQLite database files
01:18:14 <Sgeo> Wonder if you could make a custom source of data that when manipulated via YQL, does stuff to some SQLite db file
01:18:31 <pikhq> boily: I'll take your word for it for now -- I'm pretty sure there's no good source here.
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01:59:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Oj742]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40849 * Oj742 * (+73)
02:01:36 <shachaf> int-e: I wanted to @tell but lambdabot is gone. :-(
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02:05:15 <int-e> provider says "Troubleshooting some network issues."
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02:13:05 <shachaf> int-e: I @told someone something and then lambdabot quit with Excess Flood.
02:13:11 <shachaf> How likely is it that it actually went through?
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03:55:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40850 * AndoDaan * (+2032) Basic page creation.
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04:01:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40851&oldid=40837 * AndoDaan * (+14) Added MNNBFSL
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09:01:01 <zzo38> How much do you like of these kind of thing? http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/?action=list&o=random&m=100
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10:17:44 <HackEgo> mosasaur: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:19:03 <mosasaur> thanks, but I was actually looking for stuff about Ouspensky and Gurdjieff ...
10:19:44 <viznut_> #esoteric at irc.dal.net is empty
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10:43:38 <zzo38> Let's see if Wikipedia has it
10:44:21 <zzo38> Yes, of course they do.
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11:18:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40852&oldid=40833 * TomPN * (+0) /* Array and pointer */
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11:29:08 <oerjan> according to swedish wikipedia, the composers refused a request by bbc to have that translated into english
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11:37:38 <lambdabot> shachaf said 9h 30m 21s ago: http://chu.stanford.edu/ might be a better introduction to Chu spaces than Wikipedia.
11:37:39 <lambdabot> shachaf said 9h 18m 37s ago: http://chu.stanford.edu/ might be a better introduction to Chu spaces than Wikipedia.
11:38:10 <boily> schellochellof. I was confused by the wikipédiarticle. this may help me more.
11:38:44 <boily> oerjan: I think it's better if the hemicketskt remains incomprehensible.
11:40:44 <shachaf> boily: I guess lambdabot did get the message the first time.
11:42:01 <oerjan> clearly lambdabot needs a drastically reduced pH
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11:43:44 <shachaf> boily: I don't know what hilight I need to match the things you do to my nick.
11:44:02 <shachaf> The real question is where that first c came from.
11:44:19 <shachaf> People keep thinking "schachaf" for whatever reason.
11:44:32 <boily> muscle memory? German invasion?
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11:48:26 <oerjan> argh noisy construction machine
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12:00:09 <boily> oerjan: what is being constructed?
12:01:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Bataais]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40853&oldid=40848 * Bataais * (-28) Undo revision 40848 by [[Special:Contributions/Bataais|Bataais]] ([[User talk:Bataais|talk]])
12:02:40 <oerjan> i believe the pavement just outside my apartment, after they digged it up _again_ to search for a leak down to the parking cellar complex which they've been spending a year to try to plug
12:04:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40854&oldid=40852 * TomPN * (+11) /* Loops */
12:05:52 <oerjan> and there they put it on again
12:06:48 <shachaf> An "ordinary" ball is called a 3-ball, but its boundary is called a 2-sphere? Why?
12:07:03 <oerjan> it's some kind of sand compactor, so i hope that means they'll soon be laying down the asphalt and actually declare it finished
12:07:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40855 * TomPN * (+5758) Created page with "'''Quantum Dimensions''' is an adaptation of [[Dimensions]], where the program operates on qubits instead of numbers. Quantum Dimensions was invented in 2014 by Tom Price-Nich..."
12:07:22 <oerjan> shachaf: because that's the dimension of the sets in question
12:07:51 <shachaf> I guess that should be obvious in retrospect.
12:08:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40856&oldid=40854 * TomPN * (+77) /* See also */
12:08:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40857&oldid=40856 * TomPN * (+1) /* See also */
12:08:34 <oerjan> shachaf: you can imagine there's some more convoluted reason and this is just after-the-fact rationalization if that helps
12:08:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40858&oldid=40855 * TomPN * (+1) /* See also */
12:08:43 <shachaf> Especially with the wiki activity going on.
12:09:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40859&oldid=40828 * TomPN * (+78) /* See also */
12:09:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40860&oldid=40859 * TomPN * (+0) /* See also */
12:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40861&oldid=40860 * TomPN * (+0) /* See also */
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12:10:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40862&oldid=40829 * TomPN * (+34) /* Dimensions */
12:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40863&oldid=40862 * TomPN * (+1) /* Other esolangs */
12:10:40 <shachaf> "has dimension n" just means that each point has a neighborhood homeomorphic to R^n?
12:11:57 <oerjan> shachaf: there are several definitions of dimension, many of which tend to agree for manifolds
12:12:29 <shachaf> What if you don't have a manifold?
12:15:36 <oerjan> i am somewhat partial to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension#Lebesgue_covering_dimension since i've actually published articles where that was relevant
12:16:23 <oerjan> the inductive dimensions in the next section may be easier intuitively, though.
12:16:59 <shachaf> Oh, I remember reading an intuition about that in http://xorshammer.com/2011/07/09/a-logical-interpretation-of-some-bits-of-topology/
12:17:17 <oerjan> and hausdorff dimension (which requires a metric) is also cool because fractals
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12:22:06 <oerjan> lebesgue covering dimension 1 is cool because the refined covering essentially splits into a bipartite graph of open and closed sets
12:23:01 <oerjan> which allows an easy proof that the measures we were studying were trivial (which here means they were lebesgue measures) on those spaces
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12:37:53 <shachaf> oerjan: I should learn all these things properly. :-(
12:40:04 <oerjan> don't ask me i never did it properly hth
12:40:30 <shachaf> does that mean you learned all of it rather than a proper subset of it
12:40:34 <J_Arcane> blargh. I forgot how my own variable declarations are supposed to work.
12:40:55 <oerjan> no, it mean i never had a proper course and picked up pieces in a haphazard way.
12:42:00 <shachaf> what's a good haphazard way twh
12:43:21 <J_Arcane> currently working on this https://github.com/jarcane/heresy, but I've forgotten which definition of LET I decided to run with.
12:44:38 <oerjan> shachaf: find a math library and spend time in it
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13:00:18 <AndoDaan> Are there any dangers to consider if one were to host an irc bot from his or her own computer?
13:01:05 <elliott> AndoDaan: the same dangers as exposing any service to the internet
13:01:44 <elliott> if your code deals with any kind of external resource like the filesystem or other network services and exposes functionality based on that, you should be running it in some kind of sandbox at the very least
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13:01:56 <elliott> if it's just, like, brainfuck code hooked up to netcat you should be fine
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13:02:28 <J_Arcane> The frequency of bogus connects try-racket.org blocks is measured in *seconds*. Such is ye olde internets.
13:02:40 <AndoDaan> It'd be more like that, just basic language interpretation.
13:03:42 <elliott> AndoDaan: if the language doesn't have any more IO than brainfuck then you should be fine. of course you can't rule out compromise of the IRC account (like, if someone can make you send \r\nPRIVMSG Nickserv :set password owned)
13:03:43 <AndoDaan> And I suppose some language are safer to implement a bot on than others.
13:03:51 <elliott> (so you should be sanitising even that IO)
13:03:52 <oerjan> elliott: well if it's a bf implementation that doesn't check array boundary, you're _theoretically_ in trouble right?
13:05:14 <AndoDaan> Hmm. Array boundries. So like, where I store the the value on the bf data tape could be compromised?
13:05:31 <elliott> oerjan: I was assuming a memory-safe language
13:05:42 <oerjan> AndoDaan: i mean if they can move the tape pointer out of bounds
13:05:49 <elliott> if you're considering exposing code written in a memory-unsafe language to the network, consider: don't
13:06:10 <elliott> I'm serious. humans aren't good enough to do that kind of thing.
13:06:12 <AndoDaan> I notice that's possible with the anarchy golf version of BF.
13:06:15 <elliott> at least not if you can't afford a professional audit.
13:06:25 <elliott> AndoDaan: I think that's a weird intentional feature rather than an exploit, where you can read your own code
13:06:54 <elliott> AndoDaan: what language are you using to write the bot/interpreter?
13:07:03 <AndoDaan> Hmm, didn't consider that. Seems to such the fun out of BF golf though.
13:07:26 <AndoDaan> Lua... I hate it, but I'm not proficiant in anything else yet.
13:07:45 <elliott> no need to worry about array bounds, then
13:07:56 <AndoDaan> Really, I should knuckle down and finish learning python.
13:08:02 <oerjan> AndoDaan: haskell beckons you ...
13:08:07 <J_Arcane> AndoDaan: If you know Lua, Python's trivial to pick up. Try the Codecademy course.
13:09:13 <elliott> if you know lua python will be so boring :p
13:09:59 <AndoDaan> It is. I mean, I force myself to start with the basic, but my mind soons wanders after a while.
13:10:26 <AndoDaan> I think i'm 25 percent done with the khan code academy lessons of python.
13:10:51 <elliott> honestly, if you don't feel like you're getting anything out of it I'd suggest learning a language less similar to lua than python
13:11:20 <elliott> ok, maybe not that dissimilar
13:12:53 <elliott> I feel like I could probably fit good C++ knowledge and experience in my head if I tried now, after ten years of programming in a great many languages. that definitely wasn't the case, like, six years ago :p
13:13:01 <elliott> it's a very complex behemoth of a language
13:14:16 <elliott> (I've never actually sat down to probably learn it, though. I know about the design issues at play and have a good sense for why the language is like how it is, but honestly I'm more experienced in C++ template metaprogramming than C++ itself...)
13:16:06 <AndoDaan> I saw a C++ template when I was looking at the deadfish implementations. What is a c++ template?'
13:17:11 <ais523\unfoog> a C++ template's basically a function or class (or possibly other things?) where you can substitute out some of the identifiers, normally for types or integers
13:17:23 <elliott> Um, I'm not sure how to justify them if you're only experienced with dynamically-typed languages
13:17:29 <ais523\unfoog> e.g. one of the simplest examples is "template <typename T> T id(T& x) {return x;}"
13:17:37 <elliott> but they're basically compile-time metaprogramming, used for type-generic (and otherwise) programming in C++
13:17:50 <ais523\unfoog> then, for instance, id<char> would be "char id (char& x) {return x;}"
13:17:51 <elliott> (such as implementing a generic vector type that you can instantiate to be a vector of ints, or of strings, or such)
13:17:57 <elliott> but they're... rather hideously powerful in C++
13:18:01 <elliott> to the point where you can implement deadfish in them
13:18:29 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: I've heard that when templates were being designed, someone noticed early on that they were TC and mentioned it to Stroustrup
13:18:41 <ais523\unfoog> and he told them he was happy for them to stay that way
13:18:52 <ais523\unfoog> I think they were expecting him to change it to be sub-TC
13:18:59 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: I thought everyone was surprised it turns out they accidentally implemented the world's most bizarre functional programming language
13:19:21 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: yes but they found out very early on, when it wasn't too late to change
13:19:48 <elliott> just nerfing templates doesn't seem that compelling
13:19:56 <elliott> as opposed to entirely replacing them with something less horrible
13:20:16 <ais523\unfoog> they work pretty well in simple cases, except that I sometimes have trouble working out where you're meant to put the template argument
13:20:23 <Jafet> You'd just end up with java
13:20:51 <ais523\unfoog> also, has anyone done `olist yet? just noticed there are only 5 pages of discussion
13:21:11 <elliott> Jafet: I don't think java is reasonable C++, no
13:21:33 <elliott> I don't think it satisfies very many of C++'s goals
13:21:58 <Jafet> That is, generics are nerf foam templates
13:23:10 <elliott> right, generics are boxing hell though, like the rest of java
13:23:59 <ais523\unfoog> one thing that amuses me is how many languages leave out generics because they think they're complicated and they don't need them
13:24:13 <Jafet> Before java 8 it was even sillier. The type system was not actually strong enough to express generic programming without type casts
13:24:34 <FireFly> Hm, they changed that in Java 8?
13:24:44 <elliott> it still doesn't understand {co,contra}variance, right?
13:25:27 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: List<T> is still broken right, though?
13:25:43 <Jafet> It does now, but most java programmers don't and never will
13:25:52 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: is it still possible to use List<Dog> as List<Animal> and then push a Cat to it
13:26:02 <elliott> I really can't imagine java would break compatibility with that brokenness
13:26:26 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: oh, I think there might be variance annotations on the accessors, but they should still prevent that
13:26:38 <ais523\unfoog> bleh, the JDK isn't even in my browser autocomplete any more?
13:26:48 <elliott> it was definitely possible in the past, since this is an infamous fundamental java brokenness
13:26:56 <elliott> if they broke compatibility to fix it that would be really good but I'd be very surprised
13:28:30 <elliott> arrays are still broken though, yeah?
13:28:34 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: looking at this, the bulk operations all seem to have variance annotations
13:28:50 <elliott> and yeah -- I just misremembered the problem, you are right
13:29:02 <elliott> arrays breaking the type system is still pretty bad though :p
13:29:57 <ais523\unfoog> "Operations using a Spliterator that cannot split, or does so in a highly imbalanced or inefficient manner, are unlikely to benefit from parallelism."
13:30:10 <ais523\unfoog> what's the point of a spliterator that can't split?
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13:32:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40864&oldid=40858 * TomPN * (+62) /* def function */
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13:32:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40865&oldid=40864 * TomPN * (+2) /* def function */
13:32:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40866&oldid=40865 * TomPN * (-6) /* def function */
13:33:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40867&oldid=40866 * TomPN * (+2) /* def function */
13:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40868&oldid=40867 * TomPN * (-26) /* def function */
13:34:05 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: an `olist was done yesterday
13:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40869&oldid=40868 * TomPN * (+30) /* def function */
13:34:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40870&oldid=40869 * TomPN * (+2) /* def function */
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13:35:14 <ais523\unfoog> [13:33] <ais523\unfoog> elliott: are you going to warn me not to read that?
13:35:16 <ais523\unfoog> [13:33] <ais523\unfoog> I'm worried about what I'll find if I do
13:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40871&oldid=40870 * TomPN * (+13) /* def function */
13:35:26 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: not to read what?
13:37:13 <ais523\unfoog> also, that's the second time I've been DCed, reconnected, then seen lines I've said earlier
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13:41:55 <AndoDaan> hmm, that should have done something.
13:43:21 <ais523\unfoog> unlike other "quantum" esolangs, this is basically a stupid syntax for a perfectly ordinary quantum programming language
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13:44:28 <oerjan> just need to shor it up a bit
13:46:10 <ais523\unfoog> quantum deadfish can do shor's algorithm pretty easily
13:46:58 <HackEgo> olist 967: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
13:47:33 <elliott> quantum deadfish sounds amazing
13:47:36 <FireFly> quantum deadfish wouldn't be any more powerful than regular deadfish, would it?
13:48:33 <ais523\unfoog> I don't think quantum computers can solve P=NP in constant time
13:48:38 <FireFly> I wonder where oerjan put the swatter
13:49:26 <oerjan> ais523\unfoog: I SAID THERE'D BEEN AN `OLIST
13:50:14 <oerjan> which was bad since it was done yesterday
13:51:16 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
13:51:23 <oerjan> sorry, was a bit backlogged
13:51:43 <elliott> thanks, little do you know I'm a masochist and will continue stating falsehoods to promote more swatting
13:52:26 <oerjan> i guess constant time is taking it one step further than the usual lie
13:52:55 <oerjan> oh not to mention the confusion of "solving P = NP"
13:53:03 <elliott> oerjan: also I very specifically said "solving P = NP" -- yes :p
13:53:12 <oerjan> you know, actually that was a thing of beauty
13:53:13 <elliott> it produces a proof that P = NP, in constant time, by existing.
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13:53:37 <J_Arcane> So I am presented with a strange question: Do I make this bastard spawn of Scheme and BASIC pure-functional or not ...
13:54:08 <AndoDaan> Why would DeadFishBot work in a channel I made, but not here?
13:54:25 <ais523\unfoog> AndoDaan: are you matching on the name of that channel?
13:54:35 <J_Arcane> oerjan: IT would be a lot easier than trying to solve the LET name conflict between the two.
13:55:27 <AndoDaan> That's probably it, but the join channel is given by argv
13:55:37 <oerjan> J_Arcane: your strange capitalization inspires me to tell you to just call one of them IT
13:56:19 <oerjan> J_Arcane: also you know LET is optional in most basics right
13:56:42 <elliott> J_Arcane: neither scheme or basic is purely functional, so yes.
13:56:50 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I actually haven't 100% decided on a capitalization rule. And yeah, LET has been basically optional since slightly after Dartmouth BASIC.
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13:57:17 <oerjan> J_Arcane: you could distinguish them by including = in the basic one, maybe?
13:57:21 <J_Arcane> But otherwise BASIC doesn't have a strict assignment/definition command besides just the =.
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13:58:57 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I was thinking about overloading DEF into DEF FN and DEF VAR; it's a Lisp-1 so it's purely a syntax shortcut either way (I considered doing this in CL so I could match the split namespace and have an excuse to use GOSUB, but Racket macros are sooo flexible.)
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14:00:00 <AndoDaan> Yeah, but I had to slap him from over here.
14:00:07 <oerjan> AndoDaan: you know you'll have to paste the code soon if this continues
14:00:53 <AndoDaan> Gonna take a step back, and (give up) go through the code.
14:01:08 <oerjan> J_Arcane: hm in scheme the DEF FN is just distinguished by putting the FN inside a list...
14:01:28 <oerjan> are you not using parentheses, in which case this might be more like a LOGO than a scheme
14:02:01 <oerjan> heck you might consider LOGO to _be_ a bastard child of scheme and basic
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14:02:10 <J_Arcane> oerjan: Yeah, I also thought of that too. If I make lambda into fn like Clojure does, then essentially you can just do DEF name FN (args), which is a bit backwards but works.
14:02:54 <J_Arcane> oerjan: Oh there's direct relationship between LOGO and Lisp IIRC, it just doesn't show up at the basic levels. But no, I'm using S-expressions, because I haven't learned how to write reader macros yet.
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14:16:11 <AndoDaan> I can't. I have to clean up my code first.
14:16:48 <AndoDaan> The bot is basically a frankenstein's monster.
14:17:57 <AndoDaan> But thanks for the offer. Idk, I guess I should work on my code shiness.
14:18:34 <AndoDaan> `help how do i build an irc bot?
14:18:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:23:24 <FireFly> @faq can Haskell help me build an IRC bot?
14:23:25 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
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14:24:11 <AndoDaan> @hoogle Can Haskell help me build an irc bot?
14:24:12 <lambdabot> Can Haskell help me build an irc bot?
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15:14:35 <nyuszika7h> AndoDaan: if that helps, here are some basics: on initial connection, you send "NICK <nickname>" and "USER <username> * * :<real name>". obviously, don't include <>. username is this part: foo (~bar@baz.com). real name is what shows up next to the hostname in whois usually, can be anything you like.
15:14:52 <nyuszika7h> on receiving a message that starts with "PING", send the message back with "PING" replaced by "PONG".
15:15:17 <nyuszika7h> recv: "PING foo", send: "PONG foo" | recv: "PING :foo bar", send: "PONG :foo bar"
15:15:18 <ais523\unfoog> the second and third fields in a USER command can be pretty much anything
15:15:39 <ais523\unfoog> they're meant to be details of the connection you're using, but the other end ignores them because it'd be a security risk to honour them
15:16:55 <nyuszika7h> usually if the second space-separated token of the message is "376", that means "End of /MOTD command" - this is usually where you auto-join channels and such, unless you need to identify to nickserv.
15:17:39 <elliott> ais523\unfoog: not in all RFCs
15:17:49 <elliott> one RFC changed it to, be, uh, something or other and an initial umode, or something, I think
15:18:15 <elliott> I think nobody cares about that updated RFC though?
15:18:24 <elliott> I think the IRC 3.0 thing is based on the original RFC.
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15:18:48 <elliott> nyuszika7h: is there any actual reason to wait for the end of the motd before sending JOINs?
15:19:50 <nyuszika7h> elliott: some ircds will say "You are not registered" if you send the join too early
15:20:04 <nyuszika7h> can be probably sent earlier like around 251 or what it was, but 376 is the most common
15:20:18 <mroman> AndoDaan: theres an IRC bot written in haskell on the haskell-wiki
15:20:34 <nyuszika7h> if you want to identify to nickserv, then either you should use SASL or if you have a cloak, on freenode and charybdis-based networks, 396 will work too
15:20:37 <mroman> it - however - can only write to a single hardcoded channel
15:20:52 <nyuszika7h> probably should catch only the *first* occurrence of 376 and 396 per connection
15:20:57 <elliott> on freenode, you should just use PASS.
15:21:13 <elliott> PASS actually just turns into a /msg nickserv
15:21:17 <elliott> so unfortunately it doesn't do any better in terms of cloaks
15:21:21 <fizzie> Client-side certificates hth
15:21:33 <elliott> but it's easier to send it at the start if you don't want to deal with, like, TLS and SASL and all that mess. careful about your deadfish IRC bot opsec
15:21:36 <nyuszika7h> fizzie: they don't do much better either, until freenode implements SASL EXTERNAL :(
15:21:48 <elliott> freenode does support client-side certificates, I believe?
15:22:00 <nyuszika7h> but not SASL EXTERNAL, which identifies you early when using CertFP
15:22:19 <elliott> oh, you can have a cloak failure with the certificate approach?
15:22:27 <elliott> that justifies my lazy sticking with normal SASL
15:22:38 <nyuszika7h> yeah you can still end up joining before cloaked
15:22:47 <nyuszika7h> because nickserv handles identifying still
15:23:01 <elliott> but regular SASL passwords are fine?
15:23:16 <elliott> I mean, not that cloaks are life-and-death, but.
15:24:27 <fizzie> Oh, that's the silliest if true. I mean, certificate validation happens so early in the connection, it should just work.
15:24:51 <fizzie> Also I forgot to say "hello" from Tampere, I think there were some channelfolk living there.
15:33:54 <nyuszika7h> elliott: SASL identifies you early, yeah, whatever mechanism you use
15:34:56 <nyuszika7h> I use both SASL PLAIN and CertFP, so that I get automatically identified after services come back in case they split or something
15:35:24 <elliott> five nines on your nickserv identification
15:35:26 <fizzie> Perhaps you should also add a script that polls for services every three minutes.
15:35:55 <fizzie> I guess there's no SLA for freenode.
15:36:11 <elliott> I don't think freenode manage very many nines.
15:38:07 <fizzie> "Have them put a decimal point after the ninety nine and see how many nines they can tack on behind it." (From a book.)
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16:28:56 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"{pPFi}m[
16:28:57 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
16:29:01 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPFi}m[
16:29:01 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments! "132" '1 ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Inval
16:29:07 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPfI}m[
16:29:07 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments! "132" '1 ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Inval
16:29:26 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPFi}m[
16:29:26 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Invalid arguments! "132" '1 ERROR: Burlesque: (fi) Inval
16:29:29 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPjFi}m[
16:29:42 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPjFi?i}m[
16:30:25 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPjFi}m[
16:30:53 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPjFi}m[2CO
16:31:05 <mroman> !blsq "132"Pp"123"XX{pPjFi}m[2CO{p^.<}m[
16:31:56 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[2CO{p^.<}m[
16:32:09 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[
16:32:12 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[#s
16:32:12 <blsqbot> {{1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0} {1 0 3 2 5 4 7 6 8}}
16:32:31 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[j2CO{p^.-}m[#s
16:32:32 <blsqbot> {{-1 3 -1 3 -1 3 -1 2} {1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0}}
16:32:45 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[j2CO{^p.-}m[#s
16:32:45 <blsqbot> {{1 -3 1 -3 1 -3 1 -2} {1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0}}
16:33:17 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[j2CO{^p.-ab?i}m[#s
16:33:17 <blsqbot> {{2 4 2 4 2 4 2 3} {1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0}}
16:33:28 <mroman> !blsq "214365879"Pp"123456789"XX{pPjFi}m[J2CO{p^.<}m[j2CO{^p.-ab?i}m[**
16:33:29 <blsqbot> {1 2 0 4 1 2 0 4 1 2 0 4 1 2 0 3}
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16:34:37 <mroman> but that's way too ugly
16:49:43 <oerjan> my alternative approach seems far worse than the first i tried, and which i managed to shorten to tie int-e
16:49:52 <oerjan> (i suspect his approach is similar)
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17:22:37 <AndoDaan> Okay... How do I subtract two elements in a block like {3 1} to give {2}?
17:23:19 <AndoDaan> nyuszika7h: Thanks, I'll have to check that.
17:24:02 <nyuszika7h> oh and to send a message: PRIVMSG #channel :message
17:24:43 <AndoDaan> mroman: Could I possible use the haskell irc bot to call external (lua) code, while itself handles interacting with irc?
17:25:46 <AndoDaan> I think my faulty bot was only looking for PRIVMSGs, but even after I broaden what it recognizes, still nop.
17:28:22 <elliott> it would be a lot simpler to just write the bot in lua
17:28:33 <elliott> compared to adapting the haskell code for that and plugging everything together
17:30:03 <AndoDaan> I don't think I can pull off 'simple', but you're probably right. mroman was most likely just nudging me to learn Haskell. :)
17:31:09 <elliott> I could take a look at your code?
17:31:59 <J_Arcane> I think I need an alternate naming style for predicate functions in Heresy; the scheme pred? style just doesn't feel very basic to me.
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17:57:44 <AndoDaan> elliott: Thanks for the offer. I'm still kinda shy about my code. I'm just gonna try cleaing it up, and make sure I'm not missing something embarrassingly obvious.
17:58:16 <elliott> you probably are, but won't notice until someone else points it out :p
17:58:18 <elliott> that's how programming usually goes
18:00:00 <elliott> 10x better than the rubberised equivalent for debugging
18:00:42 <AndoDaan> And if doesn't work out... well that would be dinner sorted.
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18:26:05 <int-e> oh actually it seems that lambdabot got off lightly 18 hours ago. the provider hat trouble with a switch and half of the servers were unreachable for 3 hours and more instead of 50 minutes.
18:32:12 <HackEgo> :-( \ 113500 \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ etc \ factor \ head \ hej \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test.c \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
18:54:20 <shachaf> ais523: I'd already olisted.
18:54:33 * shachaf considers giving olist state.
18:54:47 <ais523> bleh, no matter how much trouble I go to to verify the absence of past olists
18:55:00 <ais523> they frequently seem to have have happened
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19:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40872&oldid=40245 * 152.26.69.32 * (+0) /* Instructions */ learn to count, silly!
19:31:36 <b_jonas> what the heck? there's now a third one?
19:33:18 <shachaf> HackEgo doesn't have access to logs anymore, right?
19:34:22 <AndoDaan> Are cell based data structures one and the same as tape base data structures?
19:34:35 <ais523> shachaf: right, the logs are no longer in its filesystem
19:34:48 <ais523> so you'd have to get `olist to update a file itself
19:37:08 <ais523> AndoDaan: I think so, although "cell-based" could also apply if you had more than 1 dimension
19:38:35 <AndoDaan> Hmm, and I suppose Cells can also indicate how the code is stored. So not soley to do with data.
19:38:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40873&oldid=38253 * 86.148.171.225 * (-145)
19:40:00 <int-e> shouldn't the first one be an exclamation mark...
19:40:33 <int-e> `` printf "%c" ABC
19:40:45 <int-e> not what I wanted, but ok
19:41:11 <int-e> I wanted C semantics, where the argument has int type.
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19:44:12 <int-e> `` python -c 'print "%c"%33'
19:44:31 <int-e> `` python -c 'print "%c"%387'
19:44:32 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ OverflowError: unsigned byte integer is greater than maximum
19:44:33 <int-e> `` python -c 'print "%c"%38'
19:44:56 <shachaf> Really, unsigned byte integer?
19:45:12 <int-e> the "Portal" example makes no sense.
19:45:30 <shachaf> `` python -c 'print u"%c"%387'
19:45:32 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u0183' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
19:46:29 <int-e> I think that each 'o' invocation is supposed to reverse the direction of execution... but as o+++++]]]]]o is executed in reverse, the right o "portal" is moved to the right before any of the "+" are executed. *mumbles*
19:48:06 <int-e> so let's see what the interpreter actually does :/
19:50:49 <int-e> So apparently what actually happens is that the second o transfers control back to the first. "Move the pointer to the other o portal" is an awful description.
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19:56:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40874&oldid=40872 * 213.162.68.192 * (+51) clarify 'o' behavior
19:58:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40875&oldid=40256 * 213.162.68.192 * (-1) What was this about counting?
20:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40876&oldid=40875 * 213.162.68.192 * (+102) Clarify 'o' and '0'
20:01:54 <int-e> hmm, same captcha three times in a row. I though there were several?
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20:20:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40877&oldid=40876 * 213.162.68.192 * (+107) /* Example */ indicate instruction pointer in trace
20:23:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40878&oldid=40874 * 213.162.68.192 * (+59) /* Example */ indicate instruction pointer in trace
20:25:36 <int-e> (Hmm I tried to make the * red but there doesn't seem to be an easy way)
20:26:20 <int-e> The problem is to replicate the style of a <pre> block, so that one can use markup inside.
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20:26:31 <fizzie> int-e: The current thought is that if there's only one captcha, it's easier to replace if/when it gets manually broken, and having only one does not seem to be any weaker.
20:26:52 <int-e> fizzie: I'm not complaining, just wondering aloud :)
20:27:04 <int-e> Thanks for the explanation.
20:27:29 <fizzie> I've still been idly thinking about trying out something in the http://thingelstad.com/stopping-mediawiki-spam-with-dynamic-questy-captchas/ vein, but the current setup seems to be more or less working.
20:27:32 <elliott> int-e: can't you just use an explicit <pre>?
20:27:48 <int-e> elliott: what's an explicit <pre>?
20:27:55 <elliott> as in <pre>...markup...</pre>
20:27:59 <elliott> as opposed to prefixing with spaces
20:28:12 <int-e> elliott: that's what I'm using
20:28:31 <int-e> (that's what the original author used, too)
20:28:47 <elliott> oh, okay. I didn't look at the diff or anything.
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20:32:54 <int-e> hmm hmm. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Template_talk:Pre
20:36:54 <elliott> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=381506
20:37:04 <elliott> why is that an eclipse bug?
20:37:15 <elliott> my advice was the wrong way around
20:37:18 <elliott> you should use spaces instead of <pre>.
20:38:27 <int-e> elliott: ah thanks, that will work.
20:40:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40879&oldid=40878 * 213.162.68.192 * (+569) /* Example */ add some color
20:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40880&oldid=40877 * 213.162.68.192 * (+1346) /* Example */ add some color
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20:56:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Len(language,encoding)]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40881 * 68.189.222.97 * (+2261) Created page with "'''Len(language,encoding)''' is not a single programming language, but rather a large family of related programming languages, inspired by [[Lenguage]] and [[Unary]]. == Synt..."
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20:57:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Len(language,encoding)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40882&oldid=40881 * 68.189.222.97 * (-1) mistake in ASCII to binary
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21:00:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40883&oldid=40720 * 68.189.222.97 * (+29) /* See also */
21:00:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Len(language,encoding)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40884&oldid=40882 * 68.189.222.97 * (-35) Not a brainfuck equivalent
21:02:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lenguage]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40885&oldid=40781 * 68.189.222.97 * (+73)
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21:58:48 <coppro> groupon backed down from the gnome trademark... that was fast
21:59:09 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how much money Gnome raised before that happened?
21:59:45 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.gnome.org/groupon/ says 68629 USD so far (might not be accurate)
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22:15:59 <fizzie> It said something like $20k or $30k a very short time ago.
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22:51:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40886&oldid=40850 * BCompton * (+1) /* Commands */ Fixed typo
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23:23:59 <boily> (you're still the only one whom I address in the vocative case.)
23:25:32 <oerjan> boily: hellørjan could be vocative, it's definitely not 2. declination
23:25:38 <Taneb> Today I went to a seminar on Forth
23:26:08 <boily> Taneb: how was it?
23:26:19 <Taneb> boily, the seminar proved interesting
23:26:24 <Taneb> The language seems... odd
23:26:34 <Taneb> But an interesting odd
23:26:37 <oerjan> boily: -us/-um -i, the only one that generally has separate vocative iirc
23:27:03 <boily> I wouldn't know for sure, I never got Latin imprinted into me during my schoolyears.
23:27:11 <Taneb> oerjan, some are also -er, eg. puer
23:27:28 <boily> IIRC, I went with the generic *PIE vocative ending.
23:27:47 <Taneb> Well, that's really suffixless in nom. and voc., but I think they're all -er
23:28:21 * boily feels complete now that he received his daily OKAYRJAN
23:29:06 <oerjan> one of the tidbits i recall about czech is that it has vocative -o ending for female names in -a
23:29:20 <oerjan> but none for masculine names iirc
23:29:31 <oerjan> (or possibly i just didn't pick that up)
23:32:11 <oerjan> norwegian is relatively light on case, but my dialect has a way of adding pronouns as articles before proper names that means vocative is slightly different, by leaving it out
23:33:25 <oerjan> (literally "he ørjan")
23:34:51 <oerjan> you can also inflect the pronoun for genitive
23:34:58 <oerjan> hainnes ørjan = ørjan's
23:35:09 <Taneb> Can anyone think of any implemented languages, other than ColorForth, where colour has semantics?
23:35:24 <Taneb> (text-based, I mean, so not like Piet)
23:35:45 <coppro> oerjan: which is your dialect?
23:36:10 <oerjan> coppro: northern norwegian
23:36:20 <coppro> oerjan: where do you livE?
23:37:09 <coppro> farthest north I've been is Trondheim, though I think my favourite place I visited was Alesund
23:37:18 <oerjan> i live in trondheim, which may have the same dialect feature (i'm having trouble deciding just by remembering) but it's not the same dialect
23:37:20 <coppro> (A with a ring; don't have an international keyboard atm)
23:37:35 <coppro> ah, cool. Trondheim is also a pretty awesome place
23:40:05 <tromp> i've also been to Alesund and Trondheim
23:40:21 <Taneb> AndoDaan, I don't think paintfuck+ has colours in the source code
23:41:00 <oerjan> trondheim dialect is considered trøndersk, not northern norwegian though, but several features apply to both regions
23:42:21 <oerjan> to distinguish trondheim dialect from any other in norway, ask them to talk about their car; it's the only dialect in which the word for car is feminine
23:43:39 <oerjan> (iirc bergen dialect, on the other hand, can be distinguished as the only which doesn't _have_ feminine)
23:51:39 <oerjan> no:bil = en:car is usually masculine
23:52:12 <oerjan> definite form bilen, vs. trondheim bila
23:54:41 <Melvar> I seem to have guessed the etymology.
23:55:47 <oerjan> Melvar: from automobile, right. iirc the word was supposedly chosen by a poll in a danish newspaper, and spread throughout scandinavia
23:56:25 <oerjan> shachaf: which is "buss" in norwegian
23:56:57 <oerjan> ("bus" in danish, which spells long consonants differently from norwegian)
23:58:08 <oerjan> shachaf: also, in norwegian nouns and adjectives are inflected according to number, gender (for adjectives, nouns just have them) and definiteness
23:58:33 <oerjan> bil, bilen, biler, bilene = car, the car, cars, the cars
23:59:00 <oerjan> although when an adjective gets added, we have an article in _addition_ to the suffix