00:00:00 <oerjan> well we have -s suffix on nouns which is sort of genitive, but really the same as english 's so barely counts
00:00:15 <boily> la bus (/bys/): you're from Eastern or Northern Québec; le bus (/bʌs/): you're from Southern Québec or Ottawa.
00:00:56 <shachaf> oerjan: number or just plurality?
00:02:00 <fizzie> oerjan: How about that Swedish thing of having a possessive pronoun, an adjective (with the definite-style -a suffix) but no suffix?
00:02:28 <shachaf> oerjan: In Hebrew a noun/adjective can be male/female and singular/plural. But articles work a little bit differently so I'm not sure I can directly compare.
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00:02:43 <shachaf> You do put a definite article on every adjective.
00:02:50 <shachaf> So maybe it's the same sort of thing.
00:03:11 <fizzie> oerjan: Something like "den gamla bilen" but "min gamla bil".
00:03:15 <oerjan> fizzie: there are circumstances in which the definite suffix on nouns is dropped when the prefixed article is added; danish does this obligatory but neither norwegian nor swedish iirc
00:03:22 <shachaf> (And there are no indefinite articles.)
00:03:52 <shachaf> Verbs can be male/female, singular/plural, first/second/third person, and past/present/future tense.
00:04:11 <shachaf> Or imperative, which is its own tense, I guess, and always second person.
00:04:49 <oerjan> fizzie: oh right. yes norwegian does that too, although there are _two_ different options. "min gamle bil" or "den gamle bilen min". my dialect only allows the latter in most situtations, while conservative bokmål/oslo prefers the former
00:05:19 <Melvar> shachaf: Imperative is usually classified as a mood, not a tense.
00:05:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Good to see you've managed to complicate it more than the Swedes.
00:06:00 <oerjan> fizzie: my dialect has at least three ways of expressing possession
00:06:40 <oerjan> bil'n te hain ørjan, hain ørjan sin bil, bil'n hainnes ørjan
00:06:53 <oerjan> (i don't actually have a car)
00:07:22 <Taneb> I am coming to the conclusion that colorForth was an elaborate joke in the early 2000s
00:07:37 <oerjan> the first two also work with non-proper nouns
00:07:41 <shachaf> Melvar: I'm not sure the distinction is pointful here.
00:08:30 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm we also have an indefinite article in the singular, like english does, and that's used more or less the same
00:08:48 <Melvar> shachaf: Well, I don’t know if you have any more moods; if you do, it probably is.
00:08:49 <oerjan> even if we also have noun inflection
00:09:07 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_verb_conjugation
00:09:35 <boily> Taneb: I think colorForth falls in the unintentionally-esoteric language category.
00:09:53 <zzo38> boily: I do think that is an important category too, probably.
00:11:11 <shachaf> obviously languages with no articles are the best
00:11:26 <oerjan> shachaf: norwegian has lost all person suffixes on verbs, and never had gender. we still have past/present/imperative, pretty much like english (but we have no progressive forms)
00:11:35 <boily> shachaf: the lack of vowels disturbs me. without niqqud so many conjugations are written the same :/...
00:11:47 <boily> zzo38: most possibly.
00:11:55 <zzo38> I think you should write an article, if there is no article.
00:12:22 <oerjan> generally our verbs are simpler than english ones, i think
00:12:41 <oerjan> while it's the other way with nounds and adjectives
00:13:00 <boily> shachaf: I'm francophone. I'm used to an overabundance of unused letters.
00:13:06 <Melvar> In German, adjectives inflect for three levels of a definitenesslike distinction, but only certain combinations of gender and case have different forms.
00:13:34 <shachaf> Newspaper headlinese is one of those languages without articles.
00:13:37 <boily> pikhq: こんばんは！おひさしぶり
00:13:44 <shachaf> Area linguist shoots man, escapes police, flees scene.
00:14:02 <shachaf> Fortunately newspapers include articles directly below the headlines.
00:14:10 <pikhq> boily: Un, hisashiburi ne (IME nai, gomen)
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00:17:46 <boily> “Linguist Shoots Man, Escapes Police, Flees Scene” should become the canonical headline when discussing languages.
00:18:56 <zzo38> One thing I have wanted to do is making a Japanese-style manga book that is written in English, but the title is written using Japanese writing and some of the signs in the picture also have some writing with Japanese, but, the main text is in English.
00:21:44 <boily> pikhq: 心配しないで（^＿^） お元気ですか？何が新しいのか？
00:22:55 * boily waves Taneb a goodnightaneb
00:23:06 <pikhq> boily: Un, genki desu. Ima koso... ano sa. Atarashii mono wo oboeru no ga muzukashii ne.
00:25:29 <zzo38> Now I have all of the Akagi manga up to 28
00:25:40 <boily> (I really ought to get back to having classes. my Japanese's getting way too rusty and corroded...
00:25:52 <pikhq> (I hear ya, I have been slacking off myself.)
00:26:11 <pikhq> Darned work keeping me busy. :P
00:29:23 <boily> zzo38: the Akagies are in my backlog. meanwhile, I got the complete Slam Dunk.
00:46:27 <zzo38> boily: That one I don't know. But, in this most recent Akagi, he manages to do something that hasn't been done before even though I have predicted it (kind of). If you read it, then you can see...
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01:08:26 <boily> I just watched the first episode of Baccano. it's going to be an interesting series...
01:09:44 <boily> non-linear Gravity's Rainbow in book form, non-linear Baccano in anime form...
01:09:56 <boily> there should be a non-linear boardgame out there to complete that.
01:10:09 <boily> (does Red November count?)
01:26:35 <boily> “Or rather, that their race was always on top.” I think it fits the bill.
01:42:06 <lifthrasiir> it always bothers me that I can read Japanese (somehow) but cannot write in that
02:03:17 <zzo38> I am not very good reading/writing Japanese, but I can a little bit, at least.
02:12:11 <boily> today's kanji: 韓【かん】Korea.
02:13:09 <boily> (nothing like a Chinese character, with a Japanese pronunciation, about a third country.)
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03:22:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40887&oldid=40886 * AndoDaan * (+146) Added an interpreter.
03:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40888&oldid=40477 * AndoDaan * (+14) Hey guys! *cough* I mean, added MNNBFSL implementation mention.
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04:36:02 <J_Arcane> Morning reading: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST-WITHDRAWN/ECMA-116,%201st%20edition,%20June%201986.pdfhttp://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST-WITHDRAWN/ECMA-116,%201st%20edition,%20June%201986.pdf
04:36:17 <J_Arcane> Arg, malformed link: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST-WITHDRAWN/ECMA-116,%201st%20edition,%20June%201986.pdf
05:06:13 <Sgeo_> Will ABCDEF ever get a non-dead link?
05:08:47 <Sgeo_> If only I had a perfect memory
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05:12:11 <L8D> LISP, FORTH, Io, Brainfuck... what am I missing?
05:12:42 <L8D> and how is the bfjoust hill doing?
05:14:48 <L8D> elegantly-simple languages
05:15:12 <L8D> I'm thinking about which languages I should incorporate in a game I'm theorizing
05:15:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thatguy25252525 * New user account
05:15:19 <vanila> I want to play that game
05:15:21 <vanila> can you tel me about it
05:15:38 <L8D> so there is this matrix of bytes
05:15:56 <L8D> and you as the player have this character which is just a program
05:16:07 <L8D> that you can write in any of the above languages
05:16:15 <L8D> and they all have they're own strengths and weaknesses
05:16:34 <L8D> but your program essentially is supposed to continously traverse this matrix
05:16:38 <L8D> and can find other programs
05:16:57 <L8D> and then you can delegate code to try and eliminate or try to communicate with these other programs
05:17:52 <L8D> so the world is represented as an ever-expanding matrix of bytes, and there is a 'tick' every few minutes or so
05:18:04 <L8D> and each tick evaluates each step in a program
05:18:14 <L8D> so like with brainfuck a single tick would run a single instruction
05:18:29 <L8D> but with LISPs ticks are a lot slower and stuff
05:18:38 <vanila> are you sure Io is slow
05:18:50 <L8D> well I don't know about Io really
05:19:06 <L8D> I think I'd need to create a subset or something
05:19:19 <L8D> but the syntax and structure behind is really elegant
05:19:31 <L8D> so I can make something that a user can build upon
05:19:47 <L8D> but I'd need a way of making a 'tick' of the program more concrete or evident
05:19:56 <vanila> i really like th sound of this
05:20:10 <L8D> and give some kind of power to the higher-level languages to prevent people from using brainfuck-generating scripts
05:20:22 <L8D> but another big problem is how I would implement the structure behind this all
05:20:27 <L8D> and how to make it scale
05:20:53 <L8D> I'll probably just use erlang
05:21:03 <L8D> but for now I'm focusing on the design of the game
05:21:18 <L8D> vanila: you're in #haskell right?
05:21:39 <vanila> yes but dont hold it against me
05:21:58 <L8D> but yeah I looking for languages that are simple and elegant
05:22:33 <L8D> I guess Io is too bloated but I can see myself writing a subset or forking the repo and stripping the standard library out
05:23:08 <zzo38> Lisp, Forth, and brainfuck can be used at least; I don't know much about the Io programming language, so I could not answer you about that.
05:24:12 <L8D> maybe even lua
05:24:37 <vanila> http://barrywatson.se/cl/cl_metacircular.html
05:24:37 <L8D> I was wondering if there were any nice esoteric languages other than brainfuck that fit the bill
05:25:23 <L8D> yeah prolog is very similar to erlang but still very complex to implement
05:25:34 <vanila> prolog is very very simple to implement from scratch
05:25:45 <L8D> well the syntax is quite crazy
05:26:08 <L8D> that's what I meant by similar to erlang
05:26:10 <vanila> the syntax is extemely simple, on level with Lisp plus some infix operators
05:26:30 <vanila> the language itself is quite differnet to erlang since it has unification and nondeterminism
05:27:26 <L8D> okay I'll consider
05:27:37 <L8D> ooo what about assembly?
05:28:15 <vanila> you dont have to include it in your game but I just wanted to express that prolog is very simple and belongs on the list
05:28:35 <L8D> AndoDaan: what
05:28:49 <L8D> AndoDaan: waaay to complicated
05:28:50 <vanila> assembly.. could use something stupid like subleq
05:28:54 <AndoDaan> Unefunge is Befunge limited to one dimension.
05:29:28 <L8D> it doesn't look like one dimension :/
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05:37:00 <zzo38> I saw some things saying that when doing Huffman coding you need a EOF code or an indication of the length in the header. Actually, you only need three bits at the beginning of the file to tell you when it ends, or depending on the tree in use, possibly even less than three bits.
05:37:56 <vanila> that seems wrong to me anyway
05:38:12 <vanila> the number of bits out of the last byte
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05:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40889&oldid=34356 * Thatguy25252525 * (+586) /* ATZ */ new section
05:39:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40890&oldid=40889 * Thatguy25252525 * (+1) /* ATZ */
05:41:45 <vanila> does esoteric archive other sites e.g. http://strlen.com/programming-languages
05:42:51 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_M%C3%BCller
05:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40891&oldid=40890 * Thatguy25252525 * (+2) /* ATZ */
05:44:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40892&oldid=40891 * Thatguy25252525 * (-1) /* ATZ */
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05:48:04 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Fuck_Scheduler
05:51:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40893&oldid=37931 * Thatguy25252525 * (+577) /* ATZ */ new section
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05:52:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40894 * Thatguy25252525 * (+590) Created page with "The ATZ programming language is an esoteric programming language designed by Arvin Zadeh in 2014. It has yet to be implemented and no interpreters have yet been made. Since it..."
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06:10:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40895&oldid=40851 * Thatguy25252525 * (+10) Added the ATZ programming language.
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06:42:56 <zzo38> Do you know the "Schroedinger's Directory"?
06:43:58 <zzo38> ls fldrA fldrB fldrC rmdir fldrA rmdir: fldrA: Not a directory cat fldrA cat: fldrA: Is a directory ... So, which is it?
06:44:07 <zzo38> I think it is a file containing the text "cat: fldrA: Is a directory"
06:52:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: some other process has changed it in between?
06:52:23 <zzo38> I suppose that can be a possibility too
06:52:50 <zzo38> What exactly will happen if it is a symlink?
06:53:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: ah, that's possible
06:53:32 <b_jonas> if it's a symlink to a directory
06:53:47 <b_jonas> because rmdir won't follow it, cat will
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09:48:42 <fizzie> "The company name is FEDERAL GOVERNMENT APPROVED COMPANY, Nigeria Federal Government approved this company because some bank and courier company are using their office to scam many other people all over the World --" well, that's an imaginative name.
09:50:17 <AndoDaan> Only the most naive person would still respond to something like that. Just the type they're looking for.
09:51:19 <AndoDaan> though, leading them on is fun for a while.
09:52:28 <fizzie> It would only cost $8000 to get my $10.5 million, and I can pay most of it when I receive the money, they just need $180 now "to enable them approve your delivery from Nigeria Federal High Court of Justice".
09:52:59 <fizzie> Also the company name keeps changing, now it's called "FEDERAL GOVERNMENT APPROVE FEDEX COMPANY".
09:53:54 <fizzie> "Stop contacting Western union Or those evil Bank because they can't transfer your fund rather they will kept demeaning money one after another."
09:54:04 <fizzie> Oh no, they will demean the money.
09:54:38 <shachaf> fizzie: You should ask them to send you $20 to confirm their bank account is real, after which you'll send them the full $200.
09:56:21 <fizzie> I don't think I'm enterprising enough.
10:00:14 <J_Arcane> Anyone know of any dynamically typed BASIC dialects?
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10:19:53 <mroman> AndoDaan: you can invoke other processes using Haskell yes
10:19:59 <mroman> that's what I do with blsqbot as well
10:20:19 <mroman> blsqbot launches the blsqinterpreter in a new process
10:20:33 <mroman> for security reasons I guess
10:20:41 <mroman> because this way I can have a timeout in the interpreter
10:20:55 <mroman> (which is about 0.04s or something iirc)
10:21:08 <mroman> and a 2s timeout for the process
10:23:02 <mroman> also that's the way rlisp works as well
10:26:41 <mroman> also Burlesque is becoming object something-oriented
10:31:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40896&oldid=40871 * TomPN * (+4) /* def function */
10:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40897&oldid=40896 * TomPN * (+155) /* Qubits */
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11:40:06 <Taneb> I am going to try and write a really optimizing brainfuck implementation at some point
11:53:57 <boily> this sound like a threat. “I'm going to write you a brainfuck optimizer, you vile slimy fungot!”
11:53:58 <fungot> boily: but some people just born to marry fnord with that and
11:56:47 <b_jonas> fungot: any predictions about the comet and the lander mission?
11:56:59 <b_jonas> fungot: no, I mean any prediction from you?
11:56:59 <fungot> b_jonas: so i don't really have that much time but she was very pleased and was showing everybody you know and
11:57:15 <b_jonas> fungot: trust your instincts
11:57:16 <fungot> b_jonas: ( ( ah ah)) to talk to meet people you know talking about travel i wish i did
11:57:51 <boily> fungot: which one of your girlfriends was showing everybody?
11:57:51 <fungot> boily: i think ' cause that's what they
12:09:06 <fungot> mroman: i don't know how i exactly how i feel you know i get it um yeah i knew one day i just made up my mind you know certain certain subways don't go to bars so i have to
12:09:25 <fungot> mroman: what kind of products they sell okay laughter you know like he's chasing her all over the place laughter and so it's it's crazy
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12:15:57 <boily> bars selling laughter, chasing prospects all over the place.
12:16:22 <boily> oerjan: good mœrjaning. careful, fungot is being sentient today.
12:16:22 <fungot> boily: i well i want what liz taylor has i want to collect it
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12:17:08 <oerjan> boily: fungot wants to marry a dozen times?
12:17:09 <fungot> oerjan: if it's a ban on everybody then you can purchase that gives you a ah destination and something fun to do scrapbooking do you do any sewing any actual sewing or laughter you know
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12:27:24 <J_Arcane> Closest thing to a first peek at what I've been working on: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/532501084120809472
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12:29:36 <oerjan> J_Arcane: if you link a pdf here, you could at least _mention_ that it's > 50 Mb
12:29:52 <J_Arcane> oerjan: Oh shit, sorry about that, I didn't realize it was so big.
12:30:53 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
12:30:57 <J_Arcane> mroman: Well, I am diagnosed with clinical depression, but I'd like to think it's unrelated to this project. ;)
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12:31:01 <oerjan> it's not _just_ a joke.
12:32:16 <elliott> mroman: that's kind of a weird thing to randomly ask somebody
12:32:49 <mroman> elliott: Not If that Somebody has a blog article mentioning it.
12:33:09 <elliott> ...if they have, then do you need to ask in the first place?
12:33:42 <mroman> I wasn't asking for a "fact"
12:33:50 <mroman> It's a "surprise" kind of question.
12:34:10 <mroman> "I hit him in the face." "You did?"
12:34:23 <elliott> how surprising that somebody could have illnesses and still talk about esoteric programming languages on IRC.
12:34:39 <mroman> I'm diagnosed with depression as well
12:34:55 <mroman> in fact, I'm living in a mental health facility right now
12:35:40 <elliott> been there, done that. (good luck, btw)
12:36:39 <elliott> sorry for the sarcasm, anyway; I have a bit of a hair trigger about the topic.
12:36:52 <mroman> It was an odd question.
12:36:54 <J_Arcane> It's a sensitive issue for sure.
12:37:10 <mroman> My social skills aren't impressively good ;)
12:37:13 <J_Arcane> A lot of stigma around it still, though it's starting to get better, at least about depression.
12:37:14 <elliott> my experiences with the mental health care system have not been positive
12:37:46 <J_Arcane> I keep getting good therapists and then having to move and losing them ... :(
12:38:40 <elliott> mroman: also, they let you have internet?
12:38:53 <mroman> elliott: It's not full stationary
12:39:07 <mroman> I have to consult leo.org for a moment
12:39:28 <J_Arcane> I'm also still on a sub-therapeutic dose of my medication, and the doctor here won't approve a bigger one for at least another two weeks, maybe longer. Big city health services in Finland can mean long wait times.
12:39:36 <mroman> it's the kind of thing where you are not 100% in the clinic
12:39:56 <mroman> I work during day hours
12:40:43 <mroman> you sleep there and stuff
12:40:55 <elliott> for me, it was 24/5; I was allowed to go home on weekends. to start with (until I was uncooperative), and months later when they ran out of excuses to keep me sleeping there, it became an outpatient thing. (I was a minor at the time.)
12:41:17 <elliott> I sincerely hope you are getting better treatment than I did :p
12:42:00 <mroman> I think they are trying to get rid of me..
12:43:06 <mroman> just in the "you should think about leaving soon" sense
12:44:40 <mroman> The problem is that if you can't answer the question
12:44:46 <mroman> "Well, how can we help you?"
12:46:04 <elliott> my experience was considerably less voluntary :p
12:46:28 <oerjan> elliott: the place i stayed was also pretty lenient about internet
12:46:36 <fizzie> I just wrote the word "lexicuton", and was struck by a strong feeling that it should mean something, but I don't think it does.
12:46:44 <fizzie> (Was attempting to write "lexicon".)
12:46:45 <mroman> We have internet from 17:30 to 23:00 in the clinic
12:46:50 <oerjan> (obviously, since i kept coming here)
12:47:06 <elliott> oerjan: right. I suspect that is more common in facilities for adults.
12:47:36 <mroman> They don't actually know all my "symptoms"
12:47:41 <elliott> you miss out on the "IRCing until 4 am every day on a smuggled iPhone from a mental health care facility" experience, though
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12:47:51 <mroman> because I'm blocked/too scared/whatever to tell them the whole story
12:48:05 <oerjan> elliott: well that _is_ something to write in your autobiography
12:48:06 <elliott> I'm so good at iPhone typing now.
12:48:52 <elliott> oerjan: my autobiography would be 2000 pages long and panned as being completely unrealistic
12:48:57 <mroman> The thing that shuts down internet isn't DST aware though
12:49:04 <mroman> for a short time it cut you off at 22:00.
12:49:50 <elliott> mroman: how does the blocking work? does it just completely cut the connection or does it, like, hijack HTTP to redirect to a "stop using the internet" page?
12:50:07 <elliott> I'm not thinking about that thing that tunnels TCP over DNS but I'm thinking about that thing that tunnels TCP over DNS.
12:50:18 <mroman> it cuts the connection
12:51:14 <mroman> I'm not really planning on using internet after 23:00 anyway
12:51:18 <mroman> that's usually the time I go to sleep
12:52:21 <b_jonas> "lexicuton" looks like "L-execution"
12:53:01 <b_jonas> mroman: that could be because of the one week difference in America versus Europe DST
12:53:14 <fizzie> I was thinking of something like a particle physics analogue but in a language context.
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12:53:56 <b_jonas> mroman: as in, the DST offset changed on 2014-10-26 in Europe, but one week later in much of the US
12:54:00 <fizzie> The thing that mediates the interaction between two lexicons.
12:54:35 <fizzie> Or maybe you learn new words by absorbing lexicutons, or something.
12:56:08 <mroman> b_jonas: the explanation is much simpler I think
12:56:20 <mroman> you turn the clock one hour back
12:56:29 <mroman> so what previously was 23:00 is now 22:00
12:56:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40898&oldid=40897 * TomPN * (+2) /* Output */
12:56:51 <mroman> if you don't turn the clock one hour back in the "cut internet of" thing it will think it's 23:00 when it's really just 22:00
12:57:08 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, it's possible that they just misconfigured it
12:57:23 <mroman> it's probably even something that just cuts power of the modem/router
12:57:56 <mroman> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitschaltuhr#mediaviewer/File:Digitale_Zeitschaltuhr.jpg <- something like that
12:58:18 <oerjan> it might just be using UTC, sounds more likely than anything american involved
12:58:19 <elliott> I'd guess it'd be a feature of the router. they often have a lot of "parental control" type things
12:58:21 <b_jonas> mroman: hmm... I'd more guess it's a setting on the router, but that's possible too
12:58:52 <mroman> anyway... if you have smartphone with internet connection you can use internet all day long
12:59:01 <mroman> (I have no internet contract for my smartphone though)
12:59:03 <b_jonas> mroman: "can" in what sense?
12:59:18 <mroman> b_jonas: you "can" and it's allowed.
12:59:47 <mroman> which makes the policy of "no internet past 23:00" kinda obsolete actually
13:00:19 <mroman> I don't think they pay by the hour :)
13:00:44 <mroman> It might be a legal thing though
13:01:13 <elliott> how filtered is their internet? :p
13:01:20 <mroman> they are somehow responsible for what you do while you are there
13:01:37 <mroman> elliott: well... I can ssh out of it
13:01:48 <mroman> I can play League of Legends
13:02:05 <mroman> the connection somehow breaks always after some time
13:02:27 <mroman> hearthstone works as well
13:05:28 <fizzie> We had one of those things which rotate and then you stick in pins to configure the time.
13:05:56 <Taneb> fizzie, we use one of those for christmas lights
13:06:10 <elliott> see, configure the time, get it. never mind
13:06:54 <fizzie> http://indoorgardensupplies.com/wp-content/uploads/TN311C-T-6-Timer.jpg -- this sort of thing, except much more... er, I can't figure out a better description except "German-looking", which is probably horribly inappropriate.
13:07:04 <elliott> the joke is I interpreted fizzie's line as referring to time travel.
13:08:45 <mroman> fizzie: I hate the ones that rotate
13:13:27 <Taneb> This evening I have an opportunity to fulfil my life-long dream
13:13:47 <Taneb> To be a contestant on University Challenge
13:13:54 <Taneb> My uni's try-outs are this evening
13:16:23 <Taneb> (University Challenge is a British quiz show which pits teams of students against eachother)
13:16:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40899&oldid=40898 * TomPN * (+1556) /* Example programs */
13:16:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40900&oldid=40899 * TomPN * (+0) /* Hello World! */
13:17:22 <mroman> hm. on sounds better actually
13:17:25 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fd1ywxn8ig
13:17:34 <mroman> so Taneb is going on a TV.
13:17:58 <Taneb> If I make the try-out, then the second round of selection, then the team is good enough to go on TV
13:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40901&oldid=40900 * TomPN * (+3) /* Hello World! */
13:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40902&oldid=40901 * TomPN * (+2) /* Storing qubits in cells */
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13:23:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40903&oldid=40857 * TomPN * (+0) /* Velocity */
13:24:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40904&oldid=40902 * TomPN * (+11) /* Example programs */
13:25:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40905&oldid=40904 * TomPN * (-11) /* Hello World! */
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13:38:57 <oerjan> xkcd is doing something weird again...
13:41:10 <J_Arcane> Whatever it is id doesn't work in my Chrome so I couldn't figure what.
13:41:30 <J_Arcane> Ahh, now it's working. Just blank before.
13:41:54 <fizzie> "Volume 4783" wow, that's a big number.
13:48:44 <oerjan> someone made http://xkcd1446.org/
13:51:19 <int-e> why do people embed jquery from jquery.com rather than hosting their own copy... (though I guess I like that better than loading it from google.com)
13:57:41 <b_jonas> Taneb: good luck for that. tell us how the try-out went.
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14:16:42 <oerjan> int-e: dammit your comment about waiting for henkma's 120 byte solution was too close to accurate :(
14:17:34 <oerjan> i said "too close to", not "exactly" hth
14:17:56 <int-e> I wasn't contradicting you.
14:18:24 <int-e> Otoh you seem to agree on the 68 for Brainfuck Optimization.
14:19:19 <oerjan> i'm a little surprised you didn't find that, it's _almost_ the completely obvious thing to do
14:19:22 <int-e> anyway, plenty of time left for desparation
14:19:34 <int-e> I didn't try too hard
14:20:02 <int-e> so don't count me out yet :P
14:21:32 <oerjan> hm henkma's 124 solution uses as many alphanums but much fewer symbols
14:24:41 <oerjan> perhaps that means he's using some verbosely named function, or even an import
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14:26:49 <int-e> import Data.Mysterious.Bag.Of.Golf.Tricks;main=doWhatIMean
14:27:08 <int-e> (it's a bag, hence in data)
14:28:26 <oerjan> i actually tested Data.Map, it was one char longer than Data.List with sort
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14:57:18 <FreeFull> Who here has been looking at Rust?
14:57:37 <oerjan> looking at rust forming, now there's a hobby
14:58:25 <FreeFull> "However, due to the quantum nature of the program, this will only occur ≈99% of the time. " Well, there are deterministic quantum algorithms too
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15:11:23 <mroman> if the harpoons don't work it will just bounce of the comet back into space?
15:11:50 <mroman> *bounce off from the comet?
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15:13:18 <mroman> It's "bounce off the comet", right?
15:13:25 <b_jonas> the thruster may still work, and even if it doesn't, there's dampers so he doesn't bounce too high so gravity may still help, and after that he can anchor himself like a rock climber
15:13:40 <mroman> b_jonas: but I've read that gravity isn't really strong
15:13:53 <b_jonas> the bounce off is the unlikely worst case
15:14:04 <b_jonas> sure, it's not strong, it's a small (four kilometer size) comet
15:14:39 <mroman> this news site says it only weighs 4 grams on the comet
15:14:53 <mroman> which suggests that if I threw a golf ball at it it would just bounce off into space again
15:14:55 <b_jonas> the lander still slows down a lot before landing, those thursters work. it's just the reverse thruster that weakly pushes the lander _towards_ the comet _after_ touching down that may have a problem
15:15:07 <mroman> since the rebound is probably stronger than the gravity
15:15:11 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, but there's nobody throwing golf balls that far up
15:17:11 <fizzie> If it really says "weighs 4 grams" and not something like "equivalent of 4 grams on Earth" or anything, that must've annoyed quite a few readers.
15:17:47 <mroman> it's obvious that it means "equivalent of 4 grams on earth"
15:18:28 <fizzie> It may be obvious, but I wouldn't be surprised it'd still annoy people. It kind of does that to me.
15:25:44 <mroman> I see fizzie did basic brainfuck optimizations
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15:38:19 <Taneb> Does anyone know of a channel where I can ask basic APL questions?
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15:50:12 <tromp> try stackoverflow?!
15:50:54 <tromp> are there any irc channels for those J / K languages?
15:52:13 <Taneb> tromp, there is but I am not sure if that is the right place to be asking about APL?
15:53:09 <j-bot> mroman: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
15:53:09 <j-bot> mroman: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
15:53:09 <j-bot> mroman: 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
15:53:09 <j-bot> mroman: 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35
15:53:09 <j-bot> mroman: 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44
15:53:25 <j-bot> mroman: |ill-formed number
15:54:04 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
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15:56:11 <tromp> i thought those are the modern derivates of APL
15:56:40 <mroman> blsq is really modern .
15:57:59 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 3 1}{2 2 2 2}ct
15:57:59 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
15:58:02 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 3 1}{2 2 2 2}ct
15:58:31 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 3 1}{2 2 2 2}ct4 0.95cq
15:58:43 <mroman> !blsq {2 2 3 1}{2 2 2 2}ct4 0.95cq.<
15:58:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:58:57 <mroman> !blsq {0 2 5 1}{2 2 2 2}ct4 0.95cq.<
15:59:04 <mroman> !blsq {0 0 7 1}{2 2 2 2}ct4 0.95cq.<
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16:00:48 <mroman> !blsq "Hello, world!"tt{**32.-2B!7'0P[}m[sa^^8.%8\/.-.+'0[P8co{2B!}\m
16:00:48 <blsqbot> {81 22 100 201 227 0 87 159 74 100 64 32}
16:01:55 <fizzie> mroman: I pretty much did the same as the ubiquitous sed, so it's p. boring.
16:02:07 <mroman> !blsq {81 22 100 201 227 0 87 159 74 100 64 32}{2B!8'0P[}\m6co{L[6==}f[{2B!32.+L[}\m
16:03:10 <mroman> !blsq "1234"<-3co)<-<-',IC
16:03:19 <mroman> !blsq "1234567"<-3co)<-<-',IC
16:04:44 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-',IC
16:04:44 <blsqbot> {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
16:06:45 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-',[]
16:06:54 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-',[]im
16:06:54 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (++) Invalid arguments!
16:06:57 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-',[]
16:07:02 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]
16:07:05 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]im
16:07:05 <blsqbot> ERROR: Burlesque: (++) Invalid arguments!
16:07:07 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]
16:07:11 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]sp
16:07:11 <blsqbot> [Sh, "\n", 1, "\n", Sh, "\n", ,, "\n", Sh, "\n", 234, "\n", Sh, "\n", ,, "\n", S
16:07:17 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]bs
16:07:21 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-(,)[]BS
16:07:24 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3co)<-<-',[]BS
16:07:59 <mroman> !blsq 1234567<-3CO)<-<-',[]BS
16:07:59 <blsqbot> 123 , 234 , 345 , 456 , 567
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16:22:50 <mroman> I guess it's Touchdown for Philae
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16:31:54 <mroman> fungot: Do you live on a comet?
16:31:54 <fungot> mroman: i fnord you for being able to exercise sigh
16:33:53 <fizzie> Not too many exercise possibilities on comets, I guess.
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16:35:56 <oerjan> the hard part is not falling off while you do it
16:36:51 <mroman> I've heard harpoons work on comets.
16:37:08 <oerjan> yeah there's some recent evidence.
16:40:58 <L8D> LISP, FORTH, Bf, possibly Io... what am I missing here?
16:41:05 <L8D> prolog has been suggested but I don't know
16:41:14 <L8D> I'm writing an MMO similar to bfjoust
16:41:35 <oerjan> L8D: when reading the logs, i _was_ going to suggest underload until i saw you needed interactivity.
16:42:04 <L8D> the brief summary is: There's a matrix of bytes (octets), you write a program that continuously traverses this matrix and finds other programs
16:42:13 <oerjan> you should just prod ais523 to finish underlambda, i guess.
16:42:36 <tromp> L8D: what are the requirements for the language?
16:42:36 <L8D> what makes underload useful?
16:42:55 <L8D> tromp: simple to learn/parse syntax, libary-less semantics
16:42:58 <oerjan> L8D: i thought you wanted elegant and simple, not useful hth
16:43:12 <tromp> L8D then how about binary lambda calculus (BLC) ?
16:43:18 <L8D> I mean... what makes underload elegant and simple?
16:43:28 <L8D> tromp: is that something that is easy to learn and parse?
16:43:44 <L8D> I thought that was just an encoding for doing ski combinators
16:43:53 <tromp> L8D: see http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html
16:44:05 <tromp> no, it's not SK based
16:44:21 <oerjan> ^ul (It is )((very easy)*)^(S):!^
16:44:22 <elliott> underload has simple semantics
16:44:26 <tromp> i can be parsed and interpreted in 29 bytes
16:44:31 <elliott> and an elegant concatenative paradigm
16:44:37 <L8D> this will be code that would be edited inside browsers BTW
16:45:04 <L8D> the game itself would have a fancy UI
16:45:09 <L8D> and be web based
16:45:13 <tromp> hmm, blc is not suitable for writing code in directly:(
16:45:30 <L8D> one sec I have some examples
16:46:14 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
16:46:23 <L8D> all of the programs would be equivalent: http://lpaste.net/114179
16:46:25 <tromp> but it comes with a BLC assembler so maybe that is doable
16:46:35 <L8D> it's psuedo-code at the moment however
16:47:16 <tromp> that ioccc link has an example program for reversing input that looks like "\a a ((\b b b) (\b \c \d \e d (b b) (\f f c e))) (\b \c c)"
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16:50:32 <L8D> I'm not really looking for hard-to-code-in or really-effing-abstract programming languages
16:50:41 <L8D> which I guess is what most esoterics are
16:50:45 <elliott> but you're asking this channel? :p
16:50:53 <L8D> yeah... should've expected it
16:51:03 <L8D> but I know this channel would definitely be interested
16:51:16 <tromp> BLC is both hard-to-code-in and really-effing-abstract :-(
16:51:36 <tromp> as well as really simple:-)
16:52:20 <Taneb> L8D, I'm still inclined to suggest something APL-like, such as J
16:52:25 <Taneb> Not sure how good at IO they are, though
16:53:11 <L8D> nah they don't need good IO
16:53:19 <L8D> I can just inject the stuff in-memory
16:53:24 <L8D> or somethign
16:54:36 <L8D> hm... J is actually quite interesting
16:54:56 <L8D> although it gets quite crazy fast
16:58:48 <L8D> what about some kind of lambda calculus thing?
16:58:52 <L8D> not ski combinators but lambdas
16:58:58 <L8D> and well... not lisp
16:59:03 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download :)
16:59:05 <L8D> something Haskell-y
16:59:18 <L8D> Taneb: what?
16:59:43 <Taneb> L8D, an esolang I made
17:00:07 <tromp> it's the COBOL dialect of binary lambda calculus:)
17:00:11 <Taneb> It has the ease-of-programming of binary lambda calculus with the terseness of COBOL!
17:00:24 <Taneb> (I meant it as a purely functional BIT)
17:00:46 <Taneb> In terms of semantics, other than IO it's identical to BLC
17:00:55 <L8D> tromp: what about a Haskell dialect of lambda calculus?
17:01:15 <elliott> depending on what you mean
17:01:21 <L8D> I mean like....
17:01:25 <L8D> everything's a function
17:01:28 <L8D> and you have lambdas
17:01:40 <Taneb> elliott, maybe with binding names?
17:01:42 <tromp> then you end up with hard to program
17:01:47 <elliott> Taneb: LC has name binding!
17:01:52 <L8D> but I'm looking for an existing LANGUAGE that models LC
17:02:02 <Taneb> elliott, syntaxy binding names
17:02:06 <L8D> Haskell fits but haskell has other things
17:02:14 <L8D> I want something that is stricty LC
17:02:20 <elliott> lambda calculus is a language...
17:02:31 <L8D> which could be a LISP but LISP has other things
17:02:42 <L8D> elliott: like there is a specific language named "lambda calculus" ?
17:03:02 <J_Arcane> there are actual implementations of pure lambda calculas.
17:03:04 <tromp> blc is just lambda calculus with the means to do IO
17:03:33 <tromp> and written in binary:(
17:03:35 <L8D> so like... I could do peano numerals and all that?
17:03:35 <elliott> L8D: the lambda calculus was one of the very first programming languages, really
17:03:39 <elliott> it just wasn't thought of in that way originally
17:03:53 <tromp> you have to define you numerals from scratch
17:03:57 <elliott> since we didn't have computers to evaluate it yet
17:04:04 <L8D> I went through the CS lectures too ;)
17:04:14 <elliott> but yes, you can write a lambda calculus evaluator in like half a page of haskell code, if that
17:04:17 <tromp> the blc prime number generator doesn't even use a number representation
17:04:21 <L8D> I'm talking about implementations though
17:04:35 <L8D> are there implementations of LC that do it properly and lazily and such
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17:04:51 <tromp> see that ioccc link
17:05:02 <L8D> elliott: how would it be typesafe?
17:05:23 <elliott> L8D: you hide the recursion behind a data type
17:05:26 <tromp> it would be untyped
17:05:47 <Taneb> I want to enter IOCCC but I can never think of a good thing to write that isn't like, way too ambitious
17:05:54 <L8D> elliott: but you'd still run into problems with GHC not letting you do recursively ambiguous types
17:05:59 <elliott> L8D: or just don't do it metacircularly
17:06:04 <elliott> I don't know what you mean by that
17:06:12 <elliott> newtype LC = LC (LC -> LC) -- this type models the lambda calculus, albeit uselessly
17:06:25 <L8D> and that compiles without warnings?!
17:06:34 <elliott> data List a = Nil | Cons a (List a)
17:06:39 <int-e> L8D: what would the warning be?
17:06:42 <elliott> you couldn't do much of anything without recursive types
17:07:04 <L8D> int-e: cannot determine type of this type
17:07:11 <elliott> actually, GHC's inliner does have a bug when you use this trick to implement the Y combinator directly, embarrassingly. I don't think it's that easy to trigger though.
17:07:31 <int-e> L8D: it's even inhabited
17:07:32 <L8D> I understand recursive data structures, I'm not a noob to haskell
17:07:33 <elliott> in practice I'd just use newtype LC a = Var a | App (LC a) (LC a) | Lam (LC (Maybe a)).
17:07:49 <elliott> well, the type of LC is *. :p
17:07:56 <J_Arcane> Here's a walk through for building a lambda-calculus language in Racket, with sample code: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
17:08:01 <int-e> (unlike things like newtype Foo = Foo Foo)
17:08:07 <elliott> L8D: do you believe that newtype LC = LC (Int, LC) is a type?
17:08:15 <elliott> inhabited by, for instance, x = LC (123, x)
17:08:17 <L8D> elliott: sure, it's a comonad too
17:08:29 <elliott> L8D: OK. do you believe that newtype LC = LC (Int -> LC) is a type?
17:08:40 <elliott> newtype LC = LC (LC -> Int)?
17:09:01 <int-e> newtype LC = LC (LC -> LC) is inhabited by LC id, for example. or LC (const (LC id))
17:09:02 <L8D> sure, but wouldn't the problem rely when there aren't any other types that GHC can infer other than functions
17:09:10 <elliott> inhabited by e.g. x = LC (\_ -> 123), y = LC (\(LC k) -> k (LC k) + 1)
17:09:27 <elliott> do you believe newtype LC = LC (LC, LC) is a type?
17:09:37 <elliott> I mean, functions aren't really special here
17:09:55 <Taneb> IN JUST OVER AN HOUR I WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO BECOME ONE STEP CLOSER TO ACHIEVING MY DREAM
17:09:58 <L8D> I know it's a type, but I don't get why GHC doesn't throw a fit
17:09:58 <elliott> (okay, they are if you're trying to have a sound language like proof systems have to worry about, because of variance. but Haskell doesn't care about non-terminating programs)
17:09:59 <int-e> or LC (\LC f -> LC (f . f)) -- which would be the Church numeral 2.
17:10:08 <elliott> I mean, I don't get why GHC would :)
17:10:14 <int-e> uhm LC (\(LC f) -> LC (f . f))
17:10:30 <elliott> L8D: what about data LC = Foo | LC (LC -> LC)?
17:10:47 <L8D> I could see that as fine
17:10:49 <elliott> then you have really boring inhabitants like Foo, LC (\_ -> Foo), LC (\case Foo -> Foo; LC _ -> LC (const Foo))
17:11:02 <elliott> L8D: okay, and you believe there are values of LC that completely ignore Foo?
17:11:21 <elliott> let's say they all, whenever they consume an LC, map Foo to undefiend and just extract the function out of the LC
17:11:24 <elliott> and let's say they never produce a Foo
17:11:27 <int-e> Really, newtype LC = LC (LC -> LC) it's a perfectly good type. It's not even all that obvious that you cannot do anything useful with it.
17:11:31 <elliott> then do you believe we can just take Foo away?
17:11:52 <L8D> from a types standpoint
17:11:56 <L8D> as a type it makes sense
17:11:59 <elliott> int-e: I agree, but I am actually interested in the reasoning here... to me I can understand balking at newtype LC = LC (LC, LC)
17:12:07 <elliott> but I can't quite understand accepting that but not (LC -> LC)
17:12:20 <elliott> (without some deeper kind of mumbling about being strictly positive)
17:12:26 <L8D> because then you couldn't actually get the function to eval as a thunk without !
17:12:41 <L8D> and I assume GHC would pick up on that
17:12:56 <elliott> I'm not sure what you mean by that
17:12:57 <L8D> because GHC can get any useful data out of those functions so why bother?
17:13:05 <int-e> L8D: a type is all that it has to be for the compiler to accept it without complaining.
17:13:08 <elliott> well, you can't get useful data out of (() -> ()) either
17:13:16 <elliott> *ignoring _|_ (i.e. without ! or such)
17:13:25 <elliott> you expect the compiler to reject (() -> ())...?
17:13:26 <L8D> so is it not complaining because it doesn't know?
17:13:34 <L8D> I expect a warning about () -> ()
17:13:53 <elliott> do you expect a warning about (main :: IO ())? :p
17:13:57 <int-e> L8D: it's not complaining because there's nothing wrong
17:14:04 <elliott> () -> () is isomorphic to () without _|_.
17:14:13 <elliott> if you don't think () values should cause warnings then there's no reason for any of these to either
17:14:20 <L8D> because with () -> () GHC will either assume it's unsafe, will bottom, or just never evaluate it
17:14:34 <L8D> and those are warning-worthy to me
17:14:46 <elliott> (\() -> ()) is a perfectly good value of type () -> ()
17:14:51 <elliott> and yes you might actually need that
17:14:53 <elliott> consider generic programming
17:15:03 <elliott> you often fix type variables to () when you don't need to use the more advanced form of a function
17:15:06 <int-e> > fmap id (Right ())
17:15:11 <elliott> and then have to supply glue functionality like that to use the function
17:15:15 <L8D> (() -> ()) only makes sense with "!"
17:15:32 <L8D> then when would you ever use it?
17:15:46 <elliott> consider thingy :: (a -> b) -> [(a,Int)] -> IntSetWith b
17:15:49 <int-e> just because there is only one inhabitant doesn't mean that a type useless. () is proof of that.
17:15:50 <elliott> pardon the ridiculousy data structure
17:16:01 <elliott> then (thingy id . map ((),)) :: [Int] -> IntSetWith ()
17:16:12 <elliott> this is a contrived example. there are less contrived examples.
17:16:22 <elliott> this kind of thing does pop up frequently in polymorphic programming
17:16:37 <L8D> but it's still kind of useless
17:16:43 <elliott> (I guess "IntSetWith" is also known as "Map Int")
17:16:48 <L8D> it's there to fill an empty/unused gap
17:16:57 <elliott> no, it's not useless. it's trivial. there's a difference
17:17:04 <L8D> but it's unused
17:17:05 <elliott> if thingy is the API you get, this is a perfectly reasonable use of it
17:17:19 <int-e> () is quite heavily used in Haskell
17:17:22 <L8D> (() -> ()) means the function will either throw, bottom or do nothing
17:17:28 <L8D> I'm not talking about ()
17:17:34 <L8D> I'm just talking about (() -> ())
17:17:34 <elliott> can you stop repeating yourself without addressing what I said?
17:17:38 <elliott> I gave you some code that uses (() -> ()).
17:17:38 <int-e> () -> () will, usually, be just id.
17:17:55 <int-e> (which I guess is what you mean by "do nothing")
17:17:59 <L8D> elliott: but that's to just fill types that you don't use
17:18:02 <elliott> L8D: ok, I give you this API. mapFromList :: (a -> b) -> [(k,a)] -> Map k b
17:18:07 <elliott> L8D: you want to write a function [Int] -> Map Int ()
17:18:13 <int-e> however, there's value in such a function because it can be passed to higher-order functions
17:18:14 <elliott> if you don't think Map Int () is a useful type, consider that it is exactly Set Int.
17:18:18 <elliott> L8D: please write this function for me
17:18:21 <int-e> > (id *** succ) ((), 1)
17:18:30 <elliott> you will find that you inevitably write a function (() -> ()) (it will be id)
17:18:42 <elliott> if the compiler gave a warning for that it would be ridiculous. you're doing something perfectly reasonable with a perfectly reasonable API
17:18:43 <L8D> \xs -> M.fromList (map ((),) xs)
17:18:57 <elliott> you get mapFromList. it's a thought experiment.
17:19:03 <elliott> pretend it's MyFancyMap instead of Map if you'd rather.
17:19:21 <elliott> (yes, in this case the API is pointlessly more complicated than fromList. But there are many legitimate situations where you want to do something like this.)
17:19:40 <L8D> mapFromList (const ())
17:19:46 <L8D> something in that vein
17:19:53 <L8D> :t const ()
17:19:56 <elliott> @let data MyMap k a = Dummy
17:20:07 <int-e> @type Data.Map.fromSet -- hmm
17:20:13 <elliott> @let mapFromList :: (a -> b) -> [(k,a)] -> MyMap k b; mapFromList = undefined
17:20:23 <elliott> @type mapFromList (const ()) :: [Int] -> MyMap Int ()
17:20:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(Int, a0)’ with ‘Int’
17:20:25 <lambdabot> Expected type: [Int] -> MyMap Int ()
17:20:25 <lambdabot> Actual type: [(Int, a0)] -> MyMap Int ()
17:20:32 <elliott> @type mapFromList (const ()) . map ((),) :: [Int] -> MyMap Int ()
17:20:33 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘()’
17:20:33 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘map’, namely ‘((),)’
17:20:38 <elliott> @type mapFromList (const ()) . map (,()) :: [Int] -> MyMap Int ()
17:20:42 <elliott> L8D: correct. I have bad news for you.
17:20:47 <elliott> do you know what the type of (const ()) in context is there?
17:21:06 <elliott> it's doing exactly what you want.
17:21:10 <L8D> but that's when you're doing polyfilling
17:21:32 <L8D> I'm talking about when you do somethign where you could just use unit
17:21:43 <L8D> and that's not what I mean by polyfilling
17:21:52 <L8D> when you use unit to substitute some unused type
17:22:44 <elliott> here's the last thing I say before I let myself get sucked back into this in a few minutes: if you had your way GHC would produce thousands of spurious warnings on vast swathes of high-quality, idiomatic Haskell code that would only be worsened by trying to work around it.
17:23:31 <L8D> in mapFromList (const ()) . map (,())
17:23:37 <L8D> const () is Int -> ()
17:23:46 <L8D> but whatever
17:24:02 <elliott> :t \f -> mapFromList f . map (,())
17:24:19 <L8D> > mapFromList (const () :: Int -> ()) [1, 2, 3]
17:24:21 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (L.MyMap k0 ()))
17:24:21 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M389555805829656213922168.show_M3895558058296562139...
17:24:47 <elliott> ;t mapFromList (const () :: Int -> ())
17:24:49 <elliott> :t mapFromList (const () :: Int -> ())
17:24:58 <elliott> your job was to write [Int] -> MyMap Int ()
17:25:06 <elliott> :t mapFromList (const () :: Int -> ()) . map (,())
17:25:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘()’
17:25:07 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘map’, namely ‘(, ())’
17:25:09 <elliott> :t mapFromList (const () :: () -> ()) . map (,())
17:25:39 <elliott> I'm too old for bickering angrily on IRC like this. I should be too old for bickering on IRC like this, anyway...
17:25:42 * L8D is the dumbest person in this channel
17:26:05 <oerjan> L8D: btw GHC uses GHC.Exts.Any rather than () to fill unused types hth
17:26:21 <elliott> I doubt that, but I'm the most irritable, that's worse.
17:26:39 <elliott> sorry for ranting over something that doesn't matter.
17:27:13 <elliott> I was going to say fungot probably is but that's just mean. fungot has made more sense than people in this channel before
17:27:13 <fungot> elliott: seeing she was like that's ' cause we especially kids watching the news because you never know
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17:27:55 <L8D> who is fungot ?
17:27:55 <fungot> L8D: yeah exactly and if pays good then it's all right it's okay for adults too you probably wouldn't be the best way to find out
17:28:17 <fungot> L8D: and it seems like some kids a lot better it's a lot of
17:28:46 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
17:28:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher* fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:28:50 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
17:28:51 <L8D> fungot fungot
17:28:51 <fungot> L8D: that would be first-class, and they need to raise our hopes too high, yes.
17:28:53 <fungot> elliott: see: unicode!?! :p) then performed operations on it, it's not a
17:28:58 <elliott> fungot: you can do bette than this
17:28:58 <fungot> elliott: lambda the ultimate
17:29:08 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: lambda the ultimate
17:29:08 <fungot> elliott: interfaces should never ask to save
17:29:10 <HackEgo> 1223) <fungot> elliott: lambda the ultimate
17:30:48 <fizzie> fungot: You hypocri-bot with your ^save command.
17:30:49 <fungot> fizzie: the only difference between proper lists dotted lists is the wrong way
17:31:22 <L8D> ^yoda fungot
17:31:39 <fungot> L8D: matthew integrated that fix, but i
17:31:48 <fungot> L8D: since people get to take 6.001. i realized that
17:31:54 <fungot> L8D: translates ' good night' to people and sympathize with them. these were designed in. from what i understand
17:32:06 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> elliott: lambda the ultimate
17:41:03 <Taneb> `quote I thought that was
17:41:04 <HackEgo> 938) <ais523> did you know that likes follow you around the internet and steal your browser? <Taneb> I thought that was Phantom_Hoover
17:41:20 <Taneb> Meh, I'm a narcissist
17:41:25 <Taneb> Last night I made a pun.
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17:42:01 <Taneb> Bah, I'm getting anxious, I'm gonna go for a walk
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18:53:45 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/114191
18:53:53 <vanila> bubble sort in i ment what i sed
18:54:43 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/114192
18:59:45 <vanila> oh, i guess /// is better than this!
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19:09:27 <L8D> omg its augur
19:09:39 <L8D> itz augur guys
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19:23:08 <augur> what are you doing here
19:24:01 <vanila> i made an esolang but /// is better
19:29:36 <augur> vanila: whyd you make an esolang?
19:29:38 <augur> and what kind is it?
19:30:21 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/114191 http://lpaste.net/114192
19:30:34 <vanila> because i couldnt sleep :S
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19:41:09 <b_jonas> tromp: #jsoftware is the irc channel
19:44:13 <tromp> thx; b_jonas, i suggest Taneb tries his APL questions there
20:00:44 <coppro> is there any language which distinguishes the first-person plural when it does or does not include the addressee of the conversation as well?
20:00:51 <coppro> ("we" vs. "we and you", basically)
20:03:48 <Melvar> It’s called “clusivity” (inclusive vs. exclusive (of the second person)).
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20:19:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40906&oldid=40894 * 199.254.2.56 * (+7)
20:20:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ATZ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40907&oldid=40906 * 199.254.2.56 * (-7)
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20:51:43 <mroman> !blsQ %:"age" 19 "money" 1000V
20:52:19 <mroman> !blsQ %:0"age" 19 "money" 1000V
20:54:35 <mroman> !blsQ %p=%:0"age"19V%p?
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20:56:30 <b_jonas> mroman: are those variables?
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20:57:06 <mroman> !blsQ %foo=9 %foo? %foo? ?*
20:57:25 <mroman> !blsQ %square{^^?*} 9 %square!
20:57:26 <blsqbot2> ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
20:57:31 <mroman> !blsQ %square={^^?*} 9 %square!
20:57:38 <mroman> %foo= is an assignment
20:58:10 <mroman> !blsQ %m=%:0%:0 9 9V8V
20:58:15 <mroman> !blsQ %m=%:0%:0 9 9V8V%m?
20:58:24 <mroman> that's a map with a map as a key
20:58:44 <mroman> %:0 9 8V creates a map with key 9 and value 8
20:58:55 <mroman> the 0 is the "default" value returned by lookups if no value was found
20:59:03 <mroman> !blsQ %:0 1 2 3 4 5 6V
20:59:13 <mroman> !blsQ %:0 1 2 3 4 5 6V8 7mi
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21:03:15 <mroman> which means you can also do recursion
21:03:23 <blsqbot2> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
21:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Voidpigeon * New user account
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21:04:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40908&oldid=40892 * Voidpigeon * (-588) moving atz
21:05:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40909&oldid=39056 * Voidpigeon * (+589) moved atz
21:09:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ATZ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40910 * Voidpigeon * (+181) Created page with "==Documentation== On [[Talk:Joke_language_list|the joke language list]], it says that documentation is said to be released upon request. This is a request to see the document..."
21:12:32 <Melvar> Hah, this newsthing spends a paragraph on describing the stink of the landed-on comet.
21:12:38 <mroman> !blsQ %q={%q={}%q!}%q!
21:12:46 <mroman> !blsQ %q={%q={9}%q!}%q!
21:16:23 <mroman> !blsQ %q={%q={9 8"q"sv}%q!}%q!
21:16:31 <mroman> !blsQ %q={%q={9 "q"8sv}%q!}%q!
21:17:16 <mroman> !blsQ %q={9"q"sv%q?}%q!
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21:42:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40911&oldid=40909 * 70.211.156.73 * (-589) /* ATZ */
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22:03:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Container]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40912 * Por gammer * (+1929) Created page with ""Container" is an esoteric programming language created by the user [[user:Por Gammer]]. The language models a finite set of nonnegative integers (denominated "containers") th..."
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22:12:15 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dimensions There isn't an implementation for this language, is there
22:13:35 <FreeFull> Well, it didn't seem to have existed at all before the 8th of november
22:14:18 <FreeFull> I imagine it needs to be implemented in some sort of sparse manner
22:14:19 <S1> I'd like to see one, too
22:16:50 <FreeFull> If you constrain yourself to just two cells in every direction, that's 2^52 cells
22:17:08 <Bicyclidine> the problem of dimensionality, they call it.
22:17:32 <S1> as if it was allocated all at once
22:17:46 <S1> Bicyclidine: n-funge is not listed on esolang wiki, is it?
22:18:49 <Bicyclidine> there's not a lot to specify, really, just add one instruction for arbitrary velocity and then two for each dimension
22:20:14 <FreeFull> https://sbjoshi.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/paradox-about-high-dimensional-spheres/ High-dimensional stuff is weird
22:20:18 <S1> Bicyclidine: this one? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungeoid
22:20:48 <Bicyclidine> "The closest relative, and most direct extension, of Befunge-93 is Befunge-98 of the Funge-98 family of languages. Each Funge extends the central concepts of Befunge to a given number of dimensions (for example, Unefunge is one-dimensional, Trefunge is three-dimensional, Nefunge is n-dimensional, etc.). "
22:20:48 <S1> I meant the n-funge one
22:21:20 <FireFly> http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1110/1110.2832.pdf this is a succint abstract
22:24:56 <S1> The paradox is cool
22:26:31 <FireFly> Unefunge and Trefunge are specified in spec98 (in addition to Befunge-98)
22:50:58 <S1> The Hello World example in 'Dimensions' is so lame
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23:16:40 <Sgeo> No one here's talking about .NET?
23:17:12 <zzo38> I don't know a lot about .NET
23:17:15 <S1> it's not a language
23:17:50 <S1> russian .net?
23:18:38 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: but .no is norway
23:19:52 <Sgeo> `quote cross-platform
23:19:57 <shachaf> boily keeps asking, but people respond with neither coördinates norway
23:20:01 <HackEgo> 50) <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands? \ 63) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 93) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 102) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutat
23:20:13 <Sgeo> `quote microsoft
23:20:13 <HackEgo> 116) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on \ 247) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Be
23:20:21 <Sgeo> 116 no longer applicable?
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23:21:45 <Gregor> I'm cautiously optimistic about open .NET.
23:23:39 <oerjan> shachaf: your pun israelly bad but doesn't deserve a swat
23:25:58 <oerjan> S1: when it comes to puns, i'm german
23:32:27 <HackEgo> 247) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
23:32:35 <shachaf> oerjan: what do i gotta do to fuel my swat masochism
23:33:07 <int-e> I guess that quote is a bit dated
23:33:11 <oerjan> i guess you could join a swat team
23:33:26 <elliott> whoa, nyuszika7h has been here before?
23:34:27 <int-e> lambdabot: have you been good today?
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23:43:05 <int-e> Oh Agatha has a hard time second-guessing herself, but at least she's trying :)
23:44:20 <int-e> Also we've seen a pile of metal that needs scrapping fairly recently. The possibilities!
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