00:00:51 <b_jonas> why ever are they doing that?
00:00:51 <elliott> DNSSEC is nice because instead of relying on four billion master keys, any of which could be compromised by a government, it relies on one master key, which ... well, you can complete the joke
00:01:01 <elliott> (okay, plus one master key per tld)
00:01:07 <b_jonas> I mean, I like chef, it's a good esolang, but still
00:01:30 <quintopia> because it's simple enough for a beginner to pick up
00:01:45 <quintopia> and it gives them a chance to show some creativity
00:02:44 <elliott> fizzie: you should maybe advertise this somewhere so people can test that it works fine for them
00:03:13 <elliott> I suppose I should change my wiki password
00:03:32 <fizzie> elliott: I might do DANE, since AIUI it doesn't need any changes to the certificate. And it'd theoretically stop $SHADY_GOVERNMENT_SUBORNED_CA from issuing fraudulent esolangs.org certificates.
00:03:43 <fizzie> Huh, irssi has DANE support? Bizarre.
00:03:55 <elliott> fizzie: pretty sure the org. and . keys can still own you?
00:05:08 <int-e> What's the root of trust for DNSSEC?
00:06:31 <elliott> int-e: a key to sign the root zone
00:06:33 <fizzie> elliott: Sure, but maybe it could hypothetically stop someone who just has one single CA browser-trusted CA in their pocket, but no feasible way of faking DNS.
00:06:43 <elliott> int-e: haven't you seen the articles about their fancy international key-signing rituals
00:06:58 <elliott> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/28/seven-people-keys-worldwide-internet-security-web
00:07:18 <elliott> fizzie: okay, that's not a state actor, though :p
00:08:53 <int-e> arguably if org. does it, they'd be issuing *real* esolang.org certificates, not fake ones.
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00:27:02 <elliott> fizzie: so how long until esolangscorewwwi.onion
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00:29:33 <int-e> elliott: that's a nice article indeed. funny how old-fashioned some of the measures are
00:29:52 <int-e> "a photograph of themselves with that day's newspaper and their key, to verify that all is well." -- haven't those people heard of Photoshop?
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00:30:09 <elliott> I think it's just 90% theatre.
00:30:20 <elliott> people want ICANN to look like they're taking it very seriously and being impartial
00:30:56 <int-e> at least this show doesn't hurt anybody
00:30:57 <elliott> especially with the general dislike of them being a US-based organisation
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00:32:14 <int-e> So where are those safety deposit boxes located?
00:32:27 <int-e> (I'm not quite through yet)
00:32:51 <elliott> the international space station
00:33:22 <elliott> ("In a nondescript industrial estate in El Segundo, a boxy suburb in south-west Los Angeles just a mile or two from LAX international airport, 20 people wait in a windowless canteen for a ceremony to begin.")
00:39:27 <int-e> So the smartcards are all on site. Is that enough to sign a key? :)
00:40:11 <elliott> I think if you can break in and steal the smartcards you win, yeah.
00:40:34 <elliott> why not just rob fort knox, though?
00:40:57 <elliott> I like http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/2/26/1393417295297/The-Icann-office-with-a-l-009.jpg. very high tech.
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00:56:06 <oerjan> is it shinh.org or my web which is stupidly slow now
00:56:46 <oerjan> something intermittent
00:57:20 <vanila> do you think delay is essential in unlambda?
00:57:35 <oerjan> int-e: at least i'm not the only one who cannot see htf you get 53 bytes on that A057755
00:57:52 <oerjan> vanila: you don't need it to program, no
00:57:57 <oerjan> but it's often convenient.
00:58:10 <vanila> its too hard to implement
00:58:21 <int-e> phew. lucky I had that spare ssh connection ... after an upgrade new logins failed thanks to the loginuid PAM module.
00:58:52 <oerjan> vanila: c is much harder, and is also harder to avoid (although you _can_ do that too, i believe)
00:59:22 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't need to do anything special, all effort went into producing a faster-than-0.3-seconds solution.
00:59:44 <oerjan> vanila: also i don't think d is that hard, but the simplest way of implementing it does require you to be able to compare functions to it
01:00:17 <vanila> oerjan, I implemnted c using CPS tranform
01:00:40 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/114355
01:00:48 <oerjan> int-e: well i have 2 alternative methods that are obviously faster, but i cannot get them to be as short as 53 bytes. i have one that is 53 bytes and prints in reverse :P
01:01:20 <oerjan> vanila: if you want to see how to implement d as a pure function, see my ocaml "compiler"
01:01:55 <int-e> "fanzy" is the fanzy way of spelling "fancy".
01:04:44 <oerjan> the variations that use floating point get ruined by the required ceiling :8
01:05:13 <int-e> the best lose 2 characters
01:05:18 <vanila> oerjan, your unlambda code is really nice looking
01:05:26 <vanila> did you write it by hand?
01:05:35 <oerjan> vanila: thanks i invented the indentation style myself, and yes
01:05:59 * int-e wonders what unlambda code vanila is referring to
01:06:16 <vanila> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:06:24 <oerjan> i believe the lambda expressions i expanded it from were given in the comments
01:07:10 <oerjan> lucky my website is working again, i have been seeing motd's from the server people that the user page server was down
01:08:30 <oerjan> vanila: i think if you strip my interpreter of whitespace and comments, it's the shortest unlambda self interpreter out there, i don't think it would have been that if i used a generator
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01:08:55 <int-e> it's pretty much the obvious indentation style
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01:10:03 * int-e used to use a lambda elimination tool for snippets (like ^v `^v `$F `$G $v `$H $v)
01:10:22 <int-e> but not for complete programs
01:10:49 <int-e> however I never wrote anything more exciting than quines in Unlambda.
01:10:53 <vanila> unlambda seems too long
01:10:56 <vanila> i prefer a minimal language
01:11:13 <vanila> too many weird operators
01:11:25 <Bike> what's it's minimize
01:11:55 <int-e> vanila: its existence is justified by d(elay) and c(all/cc), which are mindbending to use in practice.
01:12:20 <int-e> OTOH, its I/O is quite awful.
01:12:29 <vanila> I suppose unlambda can't be lazy or you'd have to use monad for IO
01:12:35 <vanila> and that would get really stupid
01:12:44 <vanila> so d is kind of acceptable... but i don't like it...
01:12:58 <int-e> vanila: it's there to break you, not to be liked!
01:13:16 <int-e> v is amazing in conjunction with call/cc
01:13:33 <int-e> it can consume a continuation before it can be applied to anything else
01:13:37 <elliott> (I mean, lazy k is a language. but you probably know that)
01:13:56 <int-e> (yes, you can express it using s and k, but the same holds for i)
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01:16:46 <oerjan> int-e: i used a lambda elimination tool for snippets too, but iirc it was mainly to check my hand elimination
01:17:06 <oerjan> (the ulify2.scm in the same directory)
01:17:10 <vanila> when I read about unlambda i learned that refcounting is effective for it
01:17:24 <vanila> because there is no cycles
01:17:46 <int-e> vanila: yay for strict languages
01:18:16 <vanila> I want to write a compiler for lambda + some?? things for practice at writing compilres which can use ref counting for GC
01:22:54 <oerjan> int-e: the unlambda input system is obviously an attempt to force people to actually _use_ c when programming it. as i've mentioned before, i _think_ you can avoid it, but you'll essentially be CPS transforming instead.
01:23:58 <int-e> oerjan: that part (using i/v for booleans) is ok; what I dislike is the proliferation of ? and . operators, rather than splitting things up into bits.
01:24:32 <oerjan> that meant i had to use an entire character table in the self interpreter
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01:55:57 <oerjan> int-e: gah now i have a 53 byte solution that is slightly wrong on the last two numbers :(
02:01:47 <oerjan> slightly means that they're close to the right numbers.
02:02:07 <int-e> that doesn't help you in any way.
02:02:19 <Bike> doesn't it, int-e? doesn't it
02:03:39 * int-e wonders what Bike is getting at.
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02:09:18 <Taneb> Help, my wikipedia user page redirects to the High Middle Ages
02:09:32 <Taneb> And has done so since 2008
02:09:52 <oerjan> Taneb: you might check it out occasionally, you know.
02:10:59 <HackEgo> 363) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
02:11:15 <elliott> he was last here on the 14th
02:12:45 <Sgeo> In an article about cocoa bean shortages: "R-6 was celebrated for its nutty and woody notes, with undertones of brown fruit and chocolate."
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02:13:08 <Sgeo> Chocolate (which apparently has different flavors?) can have undertones of chocolate?
02:13:10 <Sgeo> I am very confused
02:13:17 <Sgeo> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-14/to-save-chocolate-scientists-develop-new-breeds-of-cacao.html
02:13:29 <vanila> scientist have saved choclate!
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02:21:14 <oerjan> <elliott> I think it's memoised <-- no, absolutely not.
02:21:34 <oerjan> it would have been weirder if it did, i guess. but also less useful.
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02:23:57 <oerjan> <vanila> there's more quines in unlambda than there are any other programs <-- that's because they held a competition.
02:27:10 <oerjan> incidentally the shortest one isn't optimal, i discovered.
02:27:19 <int-e> http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/#quine
02:28:25 <vanila> he gave away SICP for it
02:30:16 <oerjan> (it contains `kv which can be shortened to just v, also removing the corresponding part in the "string representation")
02:31:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlambda: not found
02:31:52 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
02:32:13 <oerjan> int-e: it's the interface to all the stuff transplanted from EgoBot
02:32:24 <int-e> ah, ibin rather than bin
02:32:43 <int-e> `! unlambda `.i````ss``s`k`s.i``s`k`ki|``s``s|.```s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.i``s``s|.|i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.|``s``s|..
02:32:43 <HackEgo> ./interps/unlambda/unlambda.bin: file /tmp/input.290: parse error
02:32:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bini: No such file or directory
02:33:03 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
02:33:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ibin/u*: No such file or directory
02:33:15 <HackEgo> ibin/udage01 \ ibin/underload \ ibin/unlambda
02:33:36 <int-e> I guess it's just plain Unlambda, no Unlambda 2.
02:33:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: udage01: not found
02:34:01 <oerjan> my guess is your program got cut off
02:34:20 <int-e> `! unlambda `.i````ss``s`k`s.i``s`k`ki|``s``s|.```s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.i``s``s|.|i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.|``s``s|..i
02:34:21 <HackEgo> `.i````ss``s`k`s.i``s`k`ki|``s``s|.```s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|..``s``s|.i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.```s``s|.k``s``s|.i``s``s|.|i``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.```s``s|.```s``s|.s``s``s|.|``s``s|..i
02:34:32 <int-e> oerjan: I selected too little in my terminal
02:36:30 <oerjan> so is this another quine not in the distribution
02:37:01 <int-e> I recall sending David Madore a mail once, but never received a reply.
02:37:29 <oerjan> i recall doing that twice, once for my self interpreter and once for my intercal interpreter
02:38:33 <FireFly> for a moment I interpreted that as "Self interpreter"
02:38:38 <FireFly> As in the Smalltalk dialect
02:39:08 <oerjan> anyway, it's his loss.
02:40:23 <oerjan> presumably he completely lost interest, seeing as that unlambda 3 message has been there for over a decade.
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02:56:20 <Dulnes> This is how I feel when I play with lisp https://i.imgur.com/RqI9ncI.jpg
02:59:49 <elliott> this is how I feel when I play with intercal https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Avenger_-_Westphalian_horse.jpg
03:00:51 <nys> dulnes what the
03:01:10 <nys> could you elaborate on that picture?!
03:01:17 <vanila> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/its-cover.png me when lisp
03:01:48 <Dulnes> Sure it's from a video
03:02:17 <Dulnes> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ61q4oN7x0
03:02:44 <nys> well that's cool but also how does it connect with your feelings about lisp
03:02:49 <elliott> this is how I feel when I play with noit o' mnain worb https://i.imgur.com/C0BUG.jpg
03:03:47 <Dulnes> It just whenever I use it, I just go crazy with it just like that video
03:04:34 <elliott> this video does not seem to contain the image you linked at all
03:05:20 <nys> it sure doesn't i watched the whole thing to make sure
03:05:46 <Dulnes> Nah it's part of a post
03:06:16 <Dulnes> Anyways I have to go my friend is calling me to LE kitchen
03:06:22 <int-e> vanila: so how many cars have you wrecked by programming lisp when you should've paid attention to the road? :P
03:06:44 <elliott> int-e: not as many as cdrs
03:07:58 <FireFly> So I stumbled upon A000012
03:08:03 <lambdabot> The simplest sequence of positive numbers: the all 1's sequence.[1,1,1,1,1,1...
03:08:12 <FireFly> That has to be the silliest sequence on OEIS.
03:09:04 <int-e> Lisp, hmm. I once made the mistake of assuming that Common Lisp is Lisp, rather than an least common denominator of Lisp implementation. Common Lisp fails to acknowledge that there's a large body of Fortran (well, I wanted C) libraries out there that people might want to use; there's no inkling of FFI. So I discounted Lisp at the time. Now I've discovered Haskell, and frankly, to me that means it's too late for Lisp to make...
03:09:10 <int-e> ...much of an impression at all.
03:10:12 <FireFly> "The partial sums give the natural numbers" shocking
03:10:13 <boily> Lisp is a procedural language with an horrible syntax, nasty scopes and horrible macroes.
03:10:27 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
03:10:28 <lambdabot> Expansion of Jacobi theta function theta_3(x) = Sum_{m = -infinity..infinity...
03:11:10 <int-e> FireFly: the iterated partial sums give the binomial coefficients
03:11:21 <int-e> FireFly: including the triangle numbers!
03:11:43 <int-e> (I find this useful, actually)
03:12:07 <int-e> > map (take 4) (iterate (scanl1 (+)) (repeat 1))
03:12:09 <lambdabot> [[1,1,1,1],[1,2,3,4],[1,3,6,10],[1,4,10,20],[1,5,15,35],[1,6,21,56],[1,7,28,...
03:12:36 <FireFly> "a(n) is also the number of complete graphs on n nodes." heh
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03:13:30 <int-e> guess what, it's also the number of permutations of the numbers 1..n that are sorted in increasing order.
03:14:14 <int-e> I hope that sequence was added on some April 1st.
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03:14:46 <FireFly> I found the sequence while searching for square-free composites, because both of those keywords are mentioned in the list of silly properties of a(n)
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03:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unlambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41014&oldid=33851 * 212.95.7.185 * (-4) Fix link
03:25:58 <int-e> Oh time passes. That 344 character Unlambda 2 quine is 10 years old.
03:28:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unlambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41015&oldid=41014 * 212.95.7.185 * (-13) Update link: follow redirect
03:43:21 <Bike> wanna feel old? this unlambda 2 quine just voted for rick santorum
03:46:32 <nys> i remember when unlambda was big
03:46:37 <nys> as i recall dukakis was running
03:46:43 <nys> for governor
03:49:06 <int-e> Ah, from 100% disk usage to 95% in 23 simple key presses: 'tune2fs /dev/sdc1 -m 0'.
03:49:38 <int-e> (This is an external drive. No system critical log files are stored there.)
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03:58:38 <int-e> Bike: FWIW, I believe the Republicans are generally against lowering the minimum voting age.
04:04:56 <int-e> why ... does systemd have the audacity to use the kernel message buffer for its useless information? sigh...
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05:47:22 <Bike> http://perlhacks.com/2014/01/dots-perl/ god, what the hell
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06:18:38 <Dulnes> Bike: oh god what the fuck
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06:29:18 <zzo38> I have played a Dungeons&Dragons game today, and I am now working on write recording of it.
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06:41:21 <J_Arcane> Yikes. http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9244/subcatid/0/id/585221
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06:41:57 <zzo38> Do you think a bat can steal a magic wand in complete darkness while someone is in the middle of casting a spell with it?
06:43:47 <HackEgo> danddreclist 589: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:43:48 <HackEgo> danddreclist 58: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:44:56 <J_Arcane> elliott: experienced sticker shock.
06:45:22 <J_Arcane> I'd kinda like a keyboard with a built in pointing device, but didn't expect that particular price ...
06:45:37 <elliott> they manufacture new Model Ms etc.
06:45:51 <elliott> buying rarities is always gonna be expensive
06:46:11 <elliott> I don't know if you have experience with buckling spring but IME it's kind of awful compared to lighter mechanical switches
06:46:39 <J_Arcane> I grew up with a buckling spring AT. :)
06:46:57 <J_Arcane> I don't like a lot of the Cherry switches I've tried so far because they're too shallow.
06:46:59 <elliott> J_Arcane: http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/EnduraPro $99
06:47:14 <elliott> the Model F has really cool switches I think
06:47:16 <elliott> they're not the same as Model M
06:47:39 <elliott> I believe the unicomps are pretty much identical to what IBM used to sell, FWIW
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06:48:15 <elliott> personally I couldn't bring myself to buy a keyboard with a numpad ever again
06:48:15 <J_Arcane> That's what I've been told. Probably if I'm not getting anything 'special' it's the smarter play.
06:48:51 <J_Arcane> I used to swear by them until I moved to Finland and started using Finnish keyboards.
06:49:23 <elliott> scissor switches are a lot better than rubber domes, at least.
06:49:33 <J_Arcane> They all use the , for the decimal, but that just gets in the way whenever I have to type in English.
06:50:02 <J_Arcane> Yeah. I am trialling the Curve Comfort and the rubbery keys are just gross.
06:50:24 <elliott> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Foldable_keyboard.jpg have you ever wanted to live in that one dali painting
06:50:45 <J_Arcane> Heh, yeah, I've used one of those.
06:51:38 <J_Arcane> If only they'd made more of the split one.
06:51:50 <Sgeo> Are the functions for adjusting floating point behavior different on Windows and Linux?
06:53:19 <elliott> J_Arcane: clearly get a datahand
06:53:23 <elliott> that has a pointing device
06:53:35 <Sgeo> I think it's a libc thing
06:53:37 <elliott> bonus: costs way more than that IBM model
06:53:39 <Sgeo> I just want to do stuff from Rust
06:54:24 <J_Arcane> elliott: About on par with the split model-M, looks like. :/
06:54:42 <J_Arcane> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DataHand-Professional-II-Ergonomic-keyboard-/281497842360?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item418a9432b8
06:55:46 <J_Arcane> Very rare, only 1,000 made. http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/12675
06:55:56 <J_Arcane> Last one to come up on eBay went for $1600.
06:56:20 <elliott> it looks like they literally just sawed a keyboard in two
06:56:44 <elliott> looks like you can't separate the two halves very much? meh
06:57:23 <Dulnes> How do i get stuff to out
06:58:10 <Dulnes> I am thoroughly confuzzled
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06:59:27 <J_Arcane> Oooh. This looks nice: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b
07:01:49 <elliott> they're even further away from buckling springs than cherry switches are
07:02:07 <elliott> https://elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/topreswitch405.png
07:02:23 <J_Arcane> And also expensive, and not likely to show up in a shop any time soon for my to try one ...
07:02:36 <elliott> well, the HHKBs are pretty popular
07:03:08 <Dulnes> Do u need a fancy keyboard?
07:03:35 <Dulnes> I just get a keyboard like if it works ill buy it
07:03:57 <elliott> Dulnes: are you a markov chain bot or something
07:04:36 <Dulnes> What do you mean Elliot
07:05:30 <elliott> no, it was too rude to explain :p
07:05:37 <Dulnes> Did you think u was a bot
07:05:54 <J_Arcane> Dulnes: I get cramping and pain in my fingers from the impact on cheaper keyboards; and it's been getting worse lately. I tend to do better with something with a deep keystroke (or a really shallow one once I get used to it).
07:06:07 <J_Arcane> Ergo is a plus too because wrist pain.
07:06:37 <J_Arcane> A bit, and I'm working on that.
07:07:18 <Dulnes> Like sit up straight and angle your hands down
07:07:23 <J_Arcane> elliott: OH wow, the IBM split thing isn't just a simple hinge. It's like a knobby thing, adjusts vertically and horizontally.
07:07:28 <J_Arcane> http://www.dansdata.com/clicky2.htm
07:07:40 <elliott> J_Arcane: you could get a kinesis advantage or something
07:07:42 <Dulnes> Slouching encourages a hunch
07:07:54 <J_Arcane> elliott: Yeah, I'm considering one of those as well.
07:08:30 <J_Arcane> A friend just bought the big weird one, with the two bowls, because he's been hacking for years and it's really starting to get to him
07:08:41 <elliott> can't wait until I'm old and have to worry about ergonomics from all my years of slouching and bad typing
07:09:29 <coppro> if I get a job at google again I'm going to actually set up my desk ergonomics properly
07:09:40 <J_Arcane> I'm only 32. :/ But weak wrists run in my family. Both my parents developed wrist problems relatively young too.
07:09:43 <coppro> right now I'm kind of boned because the university doesn't care
07:09:56 <elliott> J_Arcane: you're over 1.5x my age :p
07:10:04 <coppro> and at home I have non-adjustable furniture that I don't use anyway because I'm terrible and mostly compute from my bed
07:10:25 <J_Arcane> Oooh, and the IBM split is seperatable.
07:10:26 <elliott> same. I'm the laziest person
07:10:29 <Dulnes> J_Arcane: i usually use a touch screen tablet keyboard for my comouter but if i ever want to type fast i use a keyboard that has uplifted key borders so you dont accidently hit the wrong key when you type
07:12:02 <Dulnes> Also computer chairs are on my list i have one that is just like asking you to slouch
07:13:34 <J_Arcane> Oh wow. Speaking of keyboards being 'sawn in half': https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/maxim-for-pc/
07:14:50 <int-e> Sigh. Magic is BAD.
07:15:10 <Dulnes> Where do i go with this keyboard
07:17:12 <int-e> (I'm preparing a LaTeX document. When I added an appendix, all labels of figures and chapter numbers obtained an extra . at the end. Turns out this is supposed to implement a former rule in the german orthography.)
07:18:00 <int-e> Crazy. (This is the scrbook style, from KOMA-script. There's an option to switch this behavior off, fortunately.)
07:18:21 <int-e> But it took quite some time to figure it out.
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07:23:06 <J_Arcane> Well, KOMA-Script is a German standard, as I understand it.
07:23:32 <J_Arcane> It just has so many cool features that it's useful for a lot of other stuff as well. ;)
07:25:15 <int-e> So the rule implemented is, if there's any section label containing a letter (like A.1) then *all* section labels obtain a trailing dot, throughout the document. This isn't too bad for sections (I didn't even notice it there), but Figure 1.1.: Caption looks just awful.
07:27:04 <int-e> And I'm using a style that's built on top of KOMA-script, so at the point where I should've looked for the documentation I was already digging in style files...
07:32:02 <J_Arcane> I think my last book was gonna be in KOMA-Script before I cancelled it.
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07:32:38 <J_Arcane> Maybe I should order one of those Cherry samplers, see if there's one of the switch types I do like.
07:33:01 <J_Arcane> Mostly I've only tried the 'gaming keyboards' and they tend to use the linear switches instead of clicky/bumpy ones.
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08:07:22 <J_Arcane> Hah, neat. Unicomp still makes APL keyboards.
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08:54:02 <Jafet> You know what that means, right
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09:28:52 <mroman> blsq ) {5 4 3 2 1 9 8}6{?d?d==}LO
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10:20:35 <J_Arcane> ahahahaha. The Wikipedia page for the Shakespeare esolang has Inform-7 in the 'see also' section. :D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_(programming_language)
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10:40:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41016&oldid=40927 * Rdebath * (+267) /* Tom's idea */ new section
10:40:49 <Sgeo> I don't understand frac()
10:41:13 <Sgeo> Trying to find valid small values of p here: frac(250 / (p*fps)) > 0.5 where 40 <= fps <= 45
10:41:31 <Sgeo> That where is a forall
10:41:49 <Sgeo> fps is a variable, not f*p*s
10:42:53 <Sgeo> I mean, I know p=8 works, and there's a bunch of other easy to find large values for p
10:45:04 <Sgeo> In order for frac(250/a) and frac(250/b) not to something between a and b, the difference between a and b must... not... something?
10:45:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41017&oldid=41005 * Rdebath * (+112) Appears to be the Author's intention.
10:46:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41018&oldid=41011 * Rdebath * (+98) /* Proof of Turing-completeness */
10:51:43 <Sgeo> I'm actually only interested in values of p of the form 2^n where n is an integer in [-23, 3], so I could just test all of those with code, I ... no I can't, can't easily check that there are no values in between 40 and 45 that don't make it flip over
10:59:09 <Sgeo> I think I could just check both values and see if the whole portion is the same and frac of both is > 0.5
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11:34:27 <Jafet> |250/40p - 250/45p| < 1/2 gives the trivial lower bound p > 25/18
11:37:51 <Jafet> (The actual solution is when 250/40p < 4, so p > 25/16)
11:43:53 <J_Arcane> Yay. Well, I finished the basic definitions for my BASIC-inspired Racket/Lisp dialect, but it's unusable because I can't figure out the module system at all.
11:46:51 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: um, how about scheme r7rs module system?
11:48:04 <J_Arcane> My macros aren't being provided properly, and I can't figure out why, and without that it's useless for anything but playing around in the REPL.
11:50:23 <J_Arcane> Also tried two different methods for the #lang s-expr (which is what I want to do) and they don't work either. :P
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12:21:26 <mroman> AndoDaan: ww. you did leapfrogging in Burlesque?
12:23:26 <AndoDaan> Yeah, It was easier than I thought (didn't look to golf my code at all though.)
12:24:57 <AndoDaan> And yeah, MNNBFSL might be pretty well suited to implement in Burlesque.
12:27:00 <AndoDaan> mroman, you mentioned that burlesque was going to be Object Oriented (if ircc)?
12:30:27 <AndoDaan> !blsqbot "214365879"ln{JPpL[ro{48.+L[pPjFi}m[0-.+]2CO{<-{.-}r[}m[J{{{0.>}'>{0<.}'<}cn[-}m[jJ2CO{{.*}r[1.<}m[0+]j)abz[{q.+r[}m[z[{{_+}r[}m[++Q}m[p^
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12:38:33 <mroman> AndoDaan: I'm not sure yet @oop
12:38:49 <mroman> You can define functions though
12:39:00 <mroman> !blsq %square={^^.*} 9 %square!
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12:44:10 <AndoDaan> cool. wow, that will probably ease a lot.
12:46:42 <AndoDaan> ha, just tried using a function as a variable.
12:47:02 <AndoDaan> but your way is probably better...
12:48:51 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (e!) Invalid arguments!
12:49:17 <blsqbot> | That line gave me an error
12:56:52 <fizzie> Re recent submission, didn't much golf that either.
12:58:30 <J_Arcane> I have at last got Heresy working.
12:58:37 <J_Arcane> Next will have to come actually documenting it.
12:58:54 <AndoDaan> Bah, and still a full 50char less than mine.
12:59:36 <AndoDaan> Or... you guys are at the top of your game.
13:05:03 <AndoDaan> But hey, I wrote a deadfish interpreter in python yesterday, soo...
13:05:48 <AndoDaan> nope, don't know how to make that impressive.
13:09:35 <Melvar> < J_Arcane> Oooh. This looks nice: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b – That looks kinda useless because it has control where the left third-level shift has to be.
13:20:22 <elliott> it's a bit hyperbolic to call a keyboard useless for one design choice
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13:22:25 <Taneb> elliott, unless the design choice is something like it not having keys
13:30:29 <HackEgo> \ This is perl 5, version 14, subversion 2 (v5.14.2) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 88 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2011, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit
13:30:39 <HackEgo> Unimplemented at -e line 1.
13:34:12 <Melvar> Oh huh, it doesn’t have the key to the right of left shift anyway, which is also necessary … and a few other important keys have moved to hard-to-reach locations.
13:35:48 <Melvar> I should have looked more closely before complaining about the most obvious thing.
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13:44:57 <elliott> true. I'm sure J_Arcane would find it literally impossible to use because it doesn't have keys you personally care about.
13:45:05 <elliott> (p.s., in a US layout, the key to the right of left shift is "z")
13:45:26 <J_Arcane> On a Finnish keyboard, it's <.
13:45:29 <elliott> it also doesn't have a numpad or f keys!!11
13:45:36 <elliott> or a PS/2 cable (probably?)
13:47:03 <elliott> I use US keyboards because I dislike the weird large enter keys.
13:47:28 <elliott> and have gotten used to the placement of @ and ". and want a $ key more than a pound sign
13:47:47 <elliott> by which I mean a pound sterling sign, and not what americans call a pound sign, which is #...
13:53:15 <fizzie> mroman: Minor Burlesque documentation issue: [~ is documented to work only on blocks or ints, even though it seems to work also on strings, like ~] and [- and -].
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14:22:25 <oerjan> it seems that dmm has gone a bit fruitcake
14:23:25 <vanila> oerjan, I was wondering how come you're so good at esolang stuff
14:23:51 <vanila> obviously you work very hard but maybe you also discovered the crystal orb or something?
14:26:19 <J_Arcane> in other fun programming news, Github arbitrarily switched lexers for syntax highlighting, and now half the languages on there are broken ...
14:26:40 <oerjan> vanila: i've always been good at math stuff.
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14:32:14 <oerjan> esolanging is basically about building a device with building blocks out of pure logic.
14:32:52 <oerjan> more abstract than ordinary programming, but less abstract than heavy math.
14:35:32 <oerjan> but with no essential sharp border to either side.
14:37:06 * oerjan did not know fruitcake had slided to that meaning in the us.
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14:57:14 <J_Arcane> I really hate Markdown right now.
14:58:17 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: I always hate it
14:58:32 <b_jonas> and mostly, it's not even markdown's fault, but the fault of those who misuse it
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15:00:46 <J_Arcane> FFS, GH Markdown can't even handle fucking newlines sanely.
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15:06:43 <J_Arcane> Anyway, this is what I did this week. https://github.com/jarcane/heresy
15:10:48 <vanila> J_Arcane, http://lpaste.net/114398
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15:16:18 <J_Arcane> Ahaha! My package does work. :D
15:16:59 <vanila> the whole thing is just macros
15:17:10 <vanila> that makes the implementation so short and to the point
15:17:25 <J_Arcane> It was just an excuse to practice macro writing more than anything.
15:17:42 <vanila> you know a really cool macro system is called CK macros
15:17:45 <vanila> you might be interested in it
15:18:08 <vanila> http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html
15:19:38 <J_Arcane> Interesting. Think my brain's a little fried to make much sense out of that right now.
15:26:01 <vanila> it uses syntax-rules to make a new macro system based on interpreting code
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15:29:37 <J_Arcane> I do kinda like Racket's macro system, now that I've had some time with it. The pattern matching is v. powerful and made something like this mostly easy, right up until it didn't go easy, and then figuring out why can be a nightmare for a noob.
15:30:07 <J_Arcane> In particular, the workarounds needed to do BREAK and CARRY with a hygienic macro system were a pain in the arse.
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15:58:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Bataais]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41019&oldid=40853 * Bataais * (-100) Blanked the page
16:17:17 <Taneb> How does a reduced set of residues differ from a set of units?
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16:28:18 <oerjan> Taneb: just independently evolved terminology?
16:32:28 <J_Arcane> I wonder if Heresy really qualifies as an esolang. Other than the insane inspiration, it's pretty useable and normal.
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16:38:19 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/jarcane/heresy
16:41:21 <b_jonas> I didn't know that's what it was called
16:42:09 <b_jonas> if it's basic-inspired, it has to have that
16:42:19 <Bike> yeah this doesn't seem very eso
16:42:25 <Bike> well it also says functional
16:42:42 <Bike> haha rem as a form
16:43:04 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: IT doesn't have one. :D
16:43:52 <b_jonas> why does it have a basic-like do-while loop then? how do you even use that without mutable storage?
16:45:02 <Bike> you call the body repeatedly with a new parameter.
16:45:15 <b_jonas> Bike: that's how a scheme-like do loop works
16:45:28 <J_Arcane> Mainly just to be able to run a REPL, but it's lack of carry support is an oversight.
16:45:29 <b_jonas> Bike: but this one doesn't appear to work like that
16:45:48 <b_jonas> maybe... but then the description is confusing
16:45:50 <J_Arcane> Under the hood, it *is* a scheme do loop.
16:46:21 <elliott> J_Arcane: it is impure because of input despite having no mutable storage, right?
16:46:34 <elliott> can it access files? you can use them for mutable state if you really have to
16:46:35 <J_Arcane> OR rather, a (let loop ... (loop)) construction with a break function (yay exit continuations!)
16:47:20 <J_Arcane> elliott: I think that would be technically true; there's no file I/O yet though, just basic print and input; haven't gotten to external IO. That is one reason why I backed off from using the word 'pure' anywhere in the docs. :D
16:48:30 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: but then its description is strange
16:48:54 <J_Arcane> Heh, well, it's cut and pasted from the code comments (which are a little out of date.
16:49:20 <Bike> also isn't "lisp but basic" logo
16:49:27 <Bike> not that this is much like logo at all, ofc
16:49:28 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: maybe also add some examples if you can make it work
16:49:47 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I have a 99 bottles and a Fact example, but some better ones would be nice.
16:52:16 <J_Arcane> Fixed the docs and the fact example. Thanks for the pointers!
16:52:32 <J_Arcane> Also, my mouse just broke. So that's fun.
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16:54:48 <elliott> J_Arcane: good excuse to buy one of those keyboards
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17:35:20 <J_Arcane> I made the front page on Hacker News. XD
17:37:02 <elliott> J_Arcane: "CL already does this." -- I don't think CL has continuations
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17:45:39 <J_Arcane> elliott: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/533547756150095872
17:46:11 <elliott> you can do loops and stuff with it
17:46:39 <J_Arcane> There's 99bottles implementation entirely in format, in the shape of a bottle.
17:48:26 <J_Arcane> http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-common-lisp-114.html
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17:59:19 <FireFly> What's the computational class of format?
18:03:34 <vanila> i guess its turing complete
18:07:37 <Bike> i don't think it can do unbounded loops.
18:07:45 <Bike> not counting the "call arbitrary lisp functions" part, obviously.
18:09:22 <vanila> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgf.htm maybe this?
18:10:00 <Bike> are you allowing nested calls? like (format nil "...~?..." (format nil ...))
18:10:02 <vanila> and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cga.htm might allow goto
18:10:19 <Bike> ~? doesn't do you much good then
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18:22:37 <Taneb> shikhin, that is where we are
18:22:40 <Dulnes> having a fullscale argument with a lisp bot is fun
18:23:20 <HackEgo> shikhin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:23:46 <Dulnes> its even more colourful on mobile
18:24:07 <boily> shikhin was never `relcomed?
18:24:23 -!- oonbotti2 has joined.
18:24:25 <shikhin> I'm sorry, I was testing a bot.
18:24:57 <boily> wasn't oonbotti one of fizzie's bot?
18:24:57 <nortti> you could've checked it from the sources
18:25:08 <int-e> `` echo ... ___ ... f | dc
18:25:11 <HackEgo> 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0
18:25:33 <nortti> (I originally intended for that command to print ascii-art goatse but decided against it)
18:25:48 <boily> btw, how does one pronounce “oonbotti”?
18:25:49 <shikhin> nortti: Clearly no sane person would do that on a public channel!
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18:27:47 <nortti> int-e: different way to mark a double-consonant
18:28:39 -!- Dulnes has quit (Quit: conception buildup in my compiler have to restart).
18:28:58 <boily> @ask Dulnes what is a conception buildup?
18:29:08 <boily> nortti: makes sense.
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18:31:10 <FireFly> isn't the point of irccloud to not disconnect for computer maintenance?
18:31:45 <Dulnes> phone is connected to computer
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18:32:12 <Dulnes> its charging >_> i dont have a adapter
18:32:16 <fizzie> I think that should be ː, not :.
18:33:39 <Dulnes> my phone just got murdered with lag because its connected ;-;
18:34:36 <fizzie> (And I was under the impression too that you don't have to stay connected to IRCCloud to stay on a channel.)
18:34:37 <boily> fizzie: yes, but I suspect a case of malignant asciiite.
18:36:08 <fizzie> For the record, "oonbotti" is pretty close to a Finnish equivalent of "iamabot" in English. (Or maybe "imabot" to match the colloquiality levels too.)
18:36:09 <int-e> so apparently their pricing page does not work without javascript; the prices are listed as "..." ...
18:38:49 <Dulnes> fizzie: i just had to turn my phone off for the time i didnt want to corrupt my folders
18:40:14 <Dulnes> i dont rlly have it set up to where it still stays connected even if i turn my.phone off
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18:42:29 <fizzie> And /tː/ is produced almost if not entirely equivalently to /t/ except a longer hold duration.
18:47:18 <fizzie> Heh, Google Translate's (Finnish) synthesis voice apparently has some sort of a fallback when it for some reason or another can't do the normal one. At least for me "hyvä puhesynteesiääni" is done with a relatively high-quality voice (okay, the prosody's pretty off) but "aika hyvä puhesynteesiääni" falls back to something eSpeak-style.
18:48:08 <Dulnes> Google translate is awful
18:49:55 <fizzie> To a human, presumably.
18:50:06 <fizzie> At least that'd be a fair statement.
18:50:43 <fizzie> There's been a couple papers with "superhuman" in the title in recent speech recognition conferences.
18:50:46 <J_Arcane> Humans are pretty awful at Finnish too. ;)
18:51:30 <fizzie> (They tend to restrict the scenario quite a lot to get actual superhuman results.)
18:51:31 <Dulnes> but what about the Finnish who speak it
18:51:50 <Bike> gets superhuman results at recognizing audio files consisting solely of the word "bupkis"
18:53:53 <fizzie> Not quite that bad. But I seem to recall some superhuman numbers for speech so noisy humans can't understand it either.
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19:18:19 <boily> we are who we are, except Taneb who isn't elliott.
19:18:29 <Taneb> boily, I am however Taneb
19:22:08 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
19:22:17 <HackEgo> A.+6غM8f>6hJLnj0/yvr]Ϡ٫^ÿ \ xa
19:22:26 <Taneb> I am also Ngevd, and atriq
19:22:32 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
19:23:08 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
19:25:34 <shachaf> Taneb: do you want to tell me about d-modules
19:25:43 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
19:26:33 <HackEgo> differential operator? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:27:43 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
19:28:47 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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19:31:06 <Dulnes> also should i use out of interest these symbols »»» to direct input and output
19:31:53 <shachaf> `` sed 's/rs,/rs, tanebventions,/; s/$/ Taneb invented them./' wisdom/tanebvention # does this go too far?
19:31:54 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, tanebventions, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence. Taneb invented them.
19:34:21 <FireFly> Goes too far? Did Taneb invent the concept of limits towards infinity?
19:34:24 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
19:37:11 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
19:37:48 <fizzie> `? automatic squirrel feeder
19:37:49 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
19:38:58 <Taneb> Gregor, originally
19:39:12 <Taneb> I did not invent HackEgo
19:39:39 <Dulnes> Taneb: you are quite silly
19:40:24 <fizzie> `run find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El '(is|are) just' | wc -l
19:40:29 <fizzie> So many things are just things.
19:40:37 <Gregor> In the category of other things.
19:41:06 <fizzie> `run find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El '(is|are) just.*category' | wc -l
19:41:37 <fizzie> `run find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El '(is|are) just.*category' | sed -e 's|wisdom/||'
19:41:38 <HackEgo> object \ partial order \ natural transformation \ endofunctor \ functor \ indexed monad \ automatic squirrel feeder \ arrow \ monad \ doodad \ comonad \ preorder
19:41:49 <HackEgo> Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
19:41:51 <elliott> `run find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El '(is|are) just' | xargs rm
19:41:55 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/monoidal': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `category': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/chu': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `space': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/partial': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `order': No such file or direc
19:42:23 <elliott> `run find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El '(is|are) just' | xargs -I'{}' rm '{}'
19:43:31 <fizzie> For the record, that just reverted the last 7 things with spaces in their names.
19:45:41 <HackEgo> Justice is just behavior or treatment.
19:49:09 <shachaf> There are several of those that can quite reasonably be deleted.
19:49:40 <HackEgo> wc: wisdom: Is a directory \ 0 wisdom
19:49:46 <J_Arcane> Woot. Finally added a useful numeric range generator to Heresy.
19:52:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d \ wisdom/d/da
19:54:40 <Dulnes> gonna go play some vidya ghames
19:56:06 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder why IE 8 / WinXP ends up using TLS_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA for esolangs.org. not that XP matters, but... can't it even do TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA?
20:03:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
20:04:40 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
20:05:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ibin | tail -n 40: No such file or directory
20:05:18 <HackEgo> axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
20:05:41 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
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20:06:57 <Dulnes> so what does the bin thing do and where does hackego get the recource from
20:07:46 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:08:03 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/BillNyeTheScienceGuyStopTheRock
20:11:23 <zzo38> Do you not like All The Tropes instead?
20:12:26 <b_jonas> that's what I thought, thanks
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20:20:30 <b_jonas> Dulnes: roman numerals go up to 3999 inclusive
20:20:52 <zzo38> Unless you put bars on top, the Romans only go up to 3999.
20:21:16 <zzo38> Does such program include fractions? There is fractions too in Roman numbers.
20:21:29 <zzo38> One half is "S" and one twelvth is a dot
20:21:32 <b_jonas> no, this program definitely doesn't include fractions,
20:21:54 <vanila> i commented on your phlog
20:21:56 <b_jonas> but feel free to replace it with a better program (with hopefully better handling of unexpected input)
20:25:01 <zzo38> vanila: Was that on the 13th?
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20:25:46 <zzo38> It says (947b/1com) the "1com" part means "1 comment"
20:26:12 <zzo38> That submenu lists the comments and the "send comment" menu, if you reload that menu then you can see a comment.
20:26:23 <zzo38> That's how you see it.
20:28:17 <vanila> zzo38, I like your gopher site
20:28:26 <vanila> its cool I wabt to set up one too
20:28:35 <vanila> i thought about converting esolang wiki to gopher
20:28:45 <vanila> but id have to handle a very large XML file so i iddnt do it
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20:40:15 <zzo38> The XML could also be converted into a SQLite database; do you know about SQLite?
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20:45:13 <FireFly> Does a gopher client have to request the directory above a thing to know what type to treat the thing as?
20:45:54 <zzo38> The type is part of the URL. (If it doesn't use URLs, there will be some other variable to keep track of the type.)
20:47:13 <zzo38> For example the URL gopher://zzo38computer.org/0sqlarge.doc indicates the type is "0".
20:48:11 <Dulnes> (hh)++["^§"].g[ss.h]+++-[ " ok " ." irc.web_host " ]+++( " * " )-[ "»»»" ] = <.irc.app_module> [ "«««" ] this should give me an output of 0 but its giving an output of 2 ;-; what am i to do
20:48:39 <FireFly> When I request gopher://zzo38computer.org I see 'images' with type 1 (i.e. dir) and 'fortune' with type 0 (text). Wouldn't those be requested as 'images' and 'fortune'?
20:49:27 <zzo38> FireFly: Yes, they would be requested as such.
20:49:45 <FireFly> So how would I know which has which type, without a request to ''?
20:50:31 <zzo38> FireFly: You need to provide a way for the user to specify what type to use for the initial request. If no request is specified at all, the request is an enpty string and uses type 1.
20:51:03 <FireFly> Ah, so the type needs to be stored "externally" somehow, so to speak
20:51:03 <zzo38> If URLs are used, the character after the slash that comes after the host/port is the type.
20:52:07 <zzo38> (A gopher client is not required to use URLs; you may use a different method. However, if it is part of a web browser, you should use URLs.)
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20:54:42 <Dulnes> oh nvm it was the second output bracket
20:55:44 <FireFly> I looked a bit at the RFC and interacted with zzo38computer.org using netcat
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20:58:10 <zzo38> Also, gopher servers aren't guaranteed to even use a hierarchical directory structure, so you might not even know what is the above directory. All that is known is each file/program has a selector string for accessing it.
20:58:53 <zzo38> If the selector string contains "x/../y" then that is the string that should be sent exactly as is; it is up to the server to interpret it if necessary.
20:59:03 <Sgeo> Jafet: thank you. Now I just need to understand what you did, like where that 4 came from
20:59:42 <vanila> sqlite is nicer tow ork with I think
21:01:30 <zzo38> vanila: And in case you need additional functions, I have written an extension that provides many additional functions (and a few collations and virtual table modules too)
21:04:23 <Dulnes> slowly eats noodles and watches conversation
21:05:19 <zzo38> (For example, if you want to calculate statistics, trigonometry, and other stuff)
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22:32:45 <zzo38> How to reduce a truecolor picture to a palette of a specified number of colors?
22:33:20 <Bicyclidine> sounds like something you'd have several ways to do, like shrinking an image
22:35:59 <zzo38> I believe that, but still I don't know what way is a best way if the palette is pretty small. I could also implement more than one way.
22:37:12 <zzo38> I mean both ways; it can use a supplied palette, if not then it should try to make up a palette.
22:39:05 <zzo38> Probably the simplest way is just to check how many unique colors it is, and if it is too much it will display an error message.
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22:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> <zzo38> I believe that, but still I don't know what way is a best way if the palette is pretty small. I could also implement more than one way.
22:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean your question hinges on how you actually define 'best'
22:49:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you'll get different algorithms depending on what you're trying to preserve through the palette reduction
22:51:00 <boily> one defining factor when doing a simple k-means could be the colour space where your pixels lie in.
22:51:10 <zzo38> I have a program that claims to be written by Magnetic Scrolls, which implements three algorithms to select the best color to convert into, if already given the palette; they are (if R,G,B are this pixel and r,g,b in the palette): [0] abs(R-r)+abs(G-g)+abs(B-b) [1] R*abs(R-r)+G*abs(G-g)+B*abs(B-b) [2] R*(R-r)*(R-r)+G*(G-g)*(G-g)+B*(B-b)*(B-b); and then whichever index this value is the lowest "distance".
22:51:12 <Gregor> zzo38: Floyd-Steinberg dithering. I find that with a VERY small palette though it looks better if you reduce to about double the number of colors with no dithering (i.e., just choose the closest color), then reduce again with dithering. Maybe that's my own preference though. Anyway, that's not "best", just "what Gregor apparently likes"
22:52:03 <zzo38> Gregor: How does Floyd-Steinberg work?
22:52:13 <boily> zzo38: matrix convolution :D
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22:53:07 <ion> Add the quantization error of a pixel onto the neighboring pixels on the bottom right diagonal of a window.
23:06:39 <fizzie> I did some sort of octree thing when I was last generating a palette.
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23:11:31 <fizzie> Also I seem to have here references to a 1994 paper by Anthony H. Dekker titled "Kohonen neural networks for optimal colour quantization", in Network: Computation in Neural Systems, vol. 5, no. 3, pp. 351-367.
23:14:10 <fizzie> And there's a link to http://www.cubic.org/docs/octree.htm here.
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23:15:26 <fizzie> The NeuQuant link on that page seems to have died, but was related to that paper.
23:15:44 <fizzie> And can still be found at http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dekker/NEUQUANT.HTML
23:18:11 <fizzie> Full disclosure disclaimer: Kohonen maps are from our university, I used to have an office maybe three doors left from that of prof. Kohonen, so I might not quite be an unbiased estimator of quality here.
23:19:44 <Bicyclidine> sigh, yet anothe rprogram ruined by the kohonen lobby
23:22:36 <fizzie> I think the median cut algorithm it mentions is kind of the "de-facto standard" for color quantization, if you don't want to go all SOM.
23:24:13 <fizzie> Gah, this is the ugliest C. I think I wrote this.
23:30:28 <fizzie> If I'm reading it right, it does three palette optimization methods (the popularity one, the octree one and the median cut one), some sort of weirdly optimized palette conversion (based on that [0] distance and a palette sorted by G) and Floyd-Steinberg dithering.
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