00:02:42 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:16:25 -!- idris-bot has joined.
00:16:31 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:18:36 -!- |S} has changed nick to S1.
00:35:40 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:40:08 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
00:49:29 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1).
00:50:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:51:03 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:51:22 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
00:54:12 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:55:48 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
01:00:43 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:01:09 <zzo38> I made up a file on my computer with some new pokemon cards I have made up now.
01:06:55 <zzo38> HEAVY GRAVITY STADIUM = All resistance to { # } is ignored.
01:07:11 <zzo38> SUPER IMPOSTER PROFESSOR OAK = Discard an energy card attached to one of your pokemons in order to cause opponent to shuffle his hand into his draw pile and draw ten cards.
01:07:31 <zzo38> COMPACT GARBAGE = Select you or opponent; all cards in his trash will get lost.
01:12:09 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
01:30:37 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/iRcT wonder what exactly it generated there
01:30:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:41:17 <Sgeo> Rustaceans seem very good at bikeshedding the word 'unsafe'
01:42:55 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/2ly7q8/two_hours_after_rust/clzmbpc
01:43:02 <Sgeo> Not the first time a similar conversation has occurred
01:44:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:45:19 <Taneb> I was actually about to try and do some Rust again
01:46:12 <Sgeo> I'm half considering just waiting for 1.0 before doing anything
01:46:22 <Sgeo> But I do have a use case... kind of...
01:46:38 <Sgeo> Want to do some loops regarding 32 bit floats
01:47:00 <Sgeo> Figure that performance probably helps. Probably not -that- significantly though
01:47:33 <Sgeo> Also wrapping C libraries... maybe. For that though it might be better to wait for unboxed closures to land, the library in question is callback intensive
01:47:48 <Sgeo> Would be nice if Rust had a real REPL
01:48:14 <Sgeo> Also there's already a C# wrapper for that library so why am I bothering
01:48:31 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:49:35 <coppro> Sgeo: what does "unsafe" do?
01:50:22 <Sgeo> unsafe blocks allow using 'unsafe' functions, and a few other things that the Rust compiler cannot verify is safe in particular ways. unsafe functions can also do those things but can only be used from unsafe blocks.
01:50:50 <Sgeo> (incl. dereferencing raw pointers and bypassing the type system ala unsafeCoerce)
01:51:01 <Sgeo> Well, the latter is a specific unsafe function
01:52:31 <int-e> oerjan: Is the domino thing your golf problem? the last one is quite hard...
01:54:03 <oerjan> although i have played the puzzle
01:54:20 <oerjan> (you could say it's in my tatham puzzle rotation)
01:57:55 <Dulnes> what was the first thing you ever did in code
01:58:46 <oerjan> the first thing i remember is writing complex arithmetic in BASIC. without a computer.
01:59:30 <oerjan> (my dad had a textbook, but no computer at home to go with it. this was approximately 1981 or so.)
02:00:08 <int-e> oerjan: (I had to verify that the solutions are unique. They are. So there's a slight chance that one can outperform the data compression approach by an honest search.)
02:00:08 <fizzie> Re earlier paste, heh; what it does is it completely omits the function epilogue from main: http://sprunge.us/Jcib
02:00:12 -!- ^v has joined.
02:00:45 <oerjan> int-e: i was thinking of a search yeah
02:01:03 <oerjan> although you're probably right that it's hard to beat compression.
02:01:40 <fizzie> Leapfrogging has had relatively little attention.
02:02:15 <oerjan> it has? i thought all the haskellers except me were improving it constantly.
02:02:27 <oerjan> (i have no idea how they're doing it :P)
02:02:28 <fizzie> Well, I mean, language-wise.
02:02:37 <fizzie> Only 8 languages in there.
02:02:42 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:02:58 <int-e> ah, well the dc folks cannot compete, for example
02:03:17 <fizzie> I was thinking of doing it in dc, actually.
02:03:27 <int-e> how are you hoping to do the parsing?
02:03:44 <int-e> sorry, I was looking at the output, not thinking
02:04:05 <fizzie> It would end up pretty long, I think.
02:04:16 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
02:04:16 <fizzie> And probably not very interesting.
02:04:46 <Dulnes> What was the most complex thing you've ever created in code
02:04:50 <int-e> I won't try, I've had a hard enough time with Wow
02:05:18 <fizzie> I'm pretty surprised at how short the dc Wow is.
02:05:55 <int-e> (And I'm a bit afraid that tails is just missing an easy trick for saving two characters.)
02:07:23 <Dulnes> sonic boom is probably the worst game ive ever seen
02:07:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:08:44 <Dulnes> collision detection doesnt activate for 6.23 seconds and when it does it makes the most ungodly noise
02:09:29 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:09:53 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:14:07 <oerjan> int-e: that last dominosa problem was no problem for my usual methods. but then the real puzzles are larger.
02:18:02 <oerjan> the initial stage of the method is mostly "search for dominoes that only exist in one place", though, so may take a while if unlucky.
02:18:25 <oerjan> (if that really fails, _then_ i have to get clever, but it didn't for this one.)
02:19:49 <oerjan> oh and also "exist in two places but those share part of their border", that got me the first hit here.
02:20:07 <int-e> ok, I have no practice at all...
02:20:39 <oerjan> i think i played dominosa several time before i had the epiphany of how to do it more efficiently.
02:21:51 <oerjan> and also once you've found something, it's important to mark what else that excludes.
02:22:24 <oerjan> tatham's puzzle allows you to insert marks where you know there is a border.
02:22:27 <int-e> yeah, I got that. I missed that the 11 are right next to a corner.
02:23:35 <int-e> so I started with 21 22 in opposite corners
02:24:07 <oerjan> and after that i found 1-4 by brute searching, and that started closing off options.
02:24:28 <int-e> I had to backtrack twice, I think.
02:24:37 <int-e> (well, branch twice)
02:24:46 <oerjan> ah and that wouldn't have worked unless you found the 0-4 corner first, i guess.
02:25:57 <oerjan> that 21 22 thing would have been important if nothing simpler had worked, i guess.
02:26:49 <oerjan> it would have allowed finding the 2-4 next
02:27:15 <int-e> I'm no longer trying to follow btw
02:28:42 <oerjan> well i mean, since you had 21 22 in opposite corners, that means 21 and 22 are both spoken for there. and it so happens that that excludes a couple of 1-2's elsewhere, giving you enough of the border of the 2-4 to place it.
02:28:49 <MDude> Who is it here that has a gopher page?
02:29:38 -!- adu has joined.
02:31:42 <oerjan> one thing i've found is that it's best to start searching for the double ones first: 00 11 etc.
02:33:15 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
02:33:51 <oerjan> because if you find 00, it gives a better chance of finding unique things involving 0's later.
02:36:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:36:31 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
02:40:46 <Dulnes> what is the percentage of tripping over a rope and exploding into flame
02:41:42 <oerjan> depends whether the rope is next to a lava pit.
02:42:31 <oerjan> pretty close to 0, i assume.
02:43:28 <Dulnes> all my code is very messy
02:43:36 <Dulnes> but it gets its job done
02:43:38 <Taneb> I don't often see ropes in my day to day life
02:43:41 <oerjan> i think that is a very high estimate.
02:43:54 <Taneb> And I have never to my knowledge exploded into flame
02:44:00 <Dulnes> 0.0000000000000000003.33%
02:44:11 <oerjan> Taneb: not you either? and here i thought i was the only one!
02:44:22 <Taneb> oerjan, we should start a support group
02:44:26 <oerjan> Dulnes: more plausible.
02:45:18 <oerjan> in fact i'd be willing to think it's higher than that. world population and all.
02:45:39 <Taneb> There aren't that many ropes lying about
02:45:51 <Taneb> Maybe if you lived in a port city or something
02:45:58 <oerjan> you still need some way to spontaneously combust without a fire to ignite you.
02:46:05 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
02:48:00 <oerjan> Taneb: i am thinking some kind of cordon.
02:49:25 <Dulnes> if you were to be accelerated in someway
02:49:38 <Dulnes> bypassing your terninal velocity
02:49:58 <Dulnes> and just ignite your blood
02:50:23 <oerjan> i doubt blood is the first thing to ignite in your body.
02:50:58 <Dulnes> if you hadnt any clothing?
02:52:42 <Dulnes> well you know how your blood vaporises when you are electricity
02:53:21 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
02:53:26 <Dulnes> mmm a rope near an electrical plant
02:55:58 <oerjan> "If SHC is a real phenomenon (and not the result of an elderly or infirm person being too close to a flame source), why doesn’t it happen more often? There are 5 billion (editor's note: as of 2011) people in the world, and yet we don’t see reports of people bursting into flame while walking down the street, attending football games, or sipping a coffee at a local Starbucks."
02:56:06 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
02:57:12 <Dulnes> mmm yes but this rope scenario is in of course theory oerjan
02:57:22 <oerjan> Dulnes: [citation needed] on that blood vaporising
02:58:56 <Bike> i'm glad i'm a biologist, so i can say things like what the fuck are you even talking about
02:59:38 <Bike> plenty of weird random things happen to bodies, like heart attacks! be satisfied with these deaths, you monsters
02:59:38 <Dulnes> well i was having very imaginative brain farts yesterday
02:59:51 <oerjan> Bike: are you a mad biologist who can do the necessary experiments to get to the bottom of this twh
03:00:05 <Dulnes> like what would liquid entropy taste like
03:00:49 * oerjan is reminded of delirium from sandman
03:01:00 <FireFly> but would they sleep furiously?
03:01:03 <Dulnes> oh my friends name us deliriun
03:01:06 <Bike> this experiment doesn't even seem very mad. bleed a cow for a while, then get a bunsen burner. easy. i could probably even get iacuc approval, except it's probably been done already
03:01:12 <AndoDaan> wouldn't 'tasting like something' be doing work?
03:01:40 <Dulnes> imaginative brain farts
03:02:00 <Bike> stringing words together isn't that imaginative, yo
03:02:48 <oerjan> AndoDaan: only if irreversible hth
03:02:54 <Dulnes> unless you go indetail
03:03:52 <AndoDaan> And maybe it's my tongue doing the work.
03:03:55 <Dulnes> like what happens if you touch photons that are super condensed to the point where the laws of the universe are like fuck it why not have liquidized light
03:04:47 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:05:51 <oerjan> if you condense light enough you get a "normal" black hole afaiu
03:05:56 <AndoDaan> that can bump into other light and make matter, if dense enough
03:05:59 <oerjan> you need a lot, though.
03:07:44 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:08:06 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugelblitz_(astrophysics)
03:10:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:11:19 <AndoDaan> could one collapse the space around a blackhole?
03:12:09 <Dulnes> is in a skype with friends
03:12:19 <AndoDaan> like if i had a wee little black hole in my room, and i managed to direct light (a lot of light) around it, could could i create an outher shell black hole?
03:12:24 <Dulnes> please help me discuss this with them
03:13:49 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:13:51 <Dulnes> apparently no you cant according to my friend
03:16:14 <Dulnes> did you guys hear about the hard light thing
03:17:01 <Dulnes> ok so they condensed the light or something
03:17:08 <oerjan> if it's recently, well i haven't been keeping up with r/physics
03:17:25 <Dulnes> but it wasnt really solid
03:17:44 <oerjan> hm it vaguely rings a bell, this was probably inside some material
03:17:49 <Dulnes> it was just alot of light moving around a set point
03:18:03 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
03:21:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:40:55 <zzo38> Now I have 34 chapters, 58 sessions, and 57 footnotes.
03:45:05 <MDude> How does anything go in a black hole if it can't get out?
03:45:34 <MDude> Can antimatter get out of a black hole, if it bahaves like regular matter going in reverse time?
03:45:57 <oerjan> MDude: no. because gravitation is symmetric under time reversal.
03:46:34 <AndoDaan> But black holes can evaportat with a little trick.
03:46:45 <MDude> That only answers the second question, unless you're saying things can't go in lack holes.
03:47:19 <oerjan> what you could have in theory is a _white_ hole, from which things can _only_ get out. but we don't know of a way to produce them, and haven't found any.
03:47:41 <MDude> I imagine they would empty fairly quickly.
03:48:06 <Dulnes> it would never go in if it has reverse time properties
03:48:09 <Bike> how are white holes even supposed to work?
03:48:10 <oerjan> well they would essentially be black holes time reversed
03:48:17 <Bike> learning physics has really ruined my sci-fi abilities.
03:49:07 <Dulnes> because if the antimatter goes in
03:49:07 <MDude> I guess it doesn't tend to happen due to being very un-entropic.
03:49:28 <Dulnes> it goes back out because of reverse time
03:49:43 <oerjan> Bike: well they are a mathematical solution, but probably thermodynamics doesn't allow them to be formed in the first place.
03:50:03 <oerjan> you'd essentially have to drop hawking radiation into a spot...
03:50:05 <Dulnes> but since nothing can escape it
03:50:19 <Dulnes> then antimatter would never enter
03:50:50 <Dulnes> and not forward which goes infinite
03:51:01 <Taneb> Most actual science scares me
03:51:09 <oerjan> MDude: i assume if a white hole existed, it wouldn't _always_ be spewing out matter, in the same way a _black_ hole isn't _always_ swallowing something.
03:51:19 <Taneb> I like to stay firmly in the region of things that are definitely true and hence useless
03:51:33 <Bike> physics only makes sense locally. here, let me tell you about all the dude ants dudeing about on this apple
03:52:33 <Dulnes> if there are white holes
03:52:36 <Taneb> > (.) flip const join (+) () 12
03:52:58 <Dulnes> it woukd have to swallow stuff to spew it out
03:53:20 <Dulnes> or the second way its just reverse gravitational force
03:53:32 <Taneb> > (<*>) pure (+) 12
03:53:34 <Bike> the Kinda Mediocre Nuclear Force
03:53:37 <Dulnes> that would leave large holes in the universe
03:53:41 <AndoDaan> if it had stuff within region before it was form it would have fuel to spue out.
03:53:53 <Bike> as you can see, i'm an efficient programmer.
03:54:07 <Dulnes> the begining of the universe was a white hole in theory
03:54:17 <Dulnes> and it pushed it outwards at highspeed
03:54:25 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:54:57 <AndoDaan> Dark energy... what's that all about, aye.
03:55:04 <oerjan> Dulnes: really you are not thinking precisely enough for this, but one hint: if you play a ball thrown through the air backwards, it still looks like a ball thrown through the air. reversing time does not change what gravitation does.
03:55:17 <oerjan> *play a video of a ball
03:55:30 <Dulnes> sorry i wasnt thinking
03:55:44 <MDude> Dark energy is for super villains to charge purple crystals.
03:56:00 <Dulnes> didnt this start with liquid light creating black holes
03:56:07 <Taneb> MDude, I'm a beginner supervillain, where can I found out more about these purple crystals?
03:57:53 <Bike> i'll sell you purple crystals for $1000/pound, dawg.
03:58:01 <MDude> A minute of using a search engine got me nothing.
03:58:23 <MDude> Half Life Wiki has uses of dark energy by a villain, though.
03:58:56 <MDude> They use it for bouncy balls that tend to explode.
03:59:04 <Taneb> Bike, I'm a low-budget beginning supervillain
03:59:15 <Bike> half life wiki is my favorite anime
03:59:24 <Bike> Taneb: i also offer loans with quite reasonable deferral times
03:59:53 -!- not^v has joined.
04:00:07 <MDude> my favorite anime.gif is a set of ink blots I made out of random data from random.org
04:00:42 * oerjan used to collect purple stones when he was tiny
04:01:02 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
04:02:16 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm imagining a tiny adult hauling purple rocks as big as himself around
04:02:19 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
04:02:37 <oerjan> Taneb: don't listen to Bike btw, his deferral times involve time dilation
04:02:49 <oerjan> and possibly travelling into black holes
04:03:28 <coppro> ooh I have a great idea
04:03:34 <coppro> we should add a black hole to dbefunge
04:03:40 <Bike> I don't have to sit here and just take what is hypothetically slander, oerjan.
04:03:46 <oerjan> Taneb: also, not very accurate imagination
04:04:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘<’
04:04:14 <Dulnes> a black hole in a data sequence
04:04:17 <coppro> I mean it exerts gravity on the IP
04:04:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
04:04:34 <oerjan> > let x = x in x -- haskell black hole
04:04:35 <Bike> several things that aren't black holes exert gravitational force, such as your mother
04:04:43 <coppro> and executing the black hole randomly transports the IP to some random point in the time and space of the fungespace
04:06:10 <Bike> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gravity i'm not sure if EFE are uncomputable in the same way, hrm
04:08:24 <Dulnes> Bike: omg that mom joke
04:11:31 <Bike> it was uninspired.
04:22:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: The black hole of programming madness | BF Joust scoring poll: http://goo.gl/02KE0Y | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
04:23:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: The black hole of programming madness, or was it the other way around | BF Joust scoring poll: http://goo.gl/02KE0Y | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
04:35:14 -!- adu has joined.
04:36:37 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:48:23 <Dulnes> guys i just made a thing that reads webbrowser cookies on a phone through the IP address and lets me find out peoples accounts still working on the thing that auto connects to said servers port
04:48:39 <Dulnes> im so proud of myself :0
04:49:33 <Dulnes> until i have to type un manually the name of the port
04:49:49 <Dulnes> until i get a auto snooper
04:50:06 <Dulnes> im doin things manually
04:50:33 <Sgeo> I assume snooper means something other than -chat client that connects to WormNET-
04:51:31 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:51:34 <Dulnes> kinda like a password sniffer
04:51:56 <Dulnes> which im purposely leaving out of g
04:56:48 <Dulnes> its actually very short
05:05:33 <Taneb> I should go to bed at some point
05:06:56 <Bike> isn't it five am
05:08:22 <Taneb> I'm in a more sensible time zone
05:08:24 <Bike> and do you sleep? no. exactly
05:08:32 <shachaf> sounds like our time zones are seven minutes apart
05:08:56 <shachaf> oh, now they're eight minutes apart
05:09:13 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm in UTC+7minutes
05:09:19 <Dulnes> do u live in Washington
05:09:44 <Taneb> I used to live 30 miles from a Washington
05:11:36 <Taneb> Not that Washington
05:12:41 <Taneb> Not that Washington
05:13:24 <quintopia> do we really need the scoring poll still?
05:13:28 <Taneb> Washington, Tyne and Wear
05:13:28 -!- ^v has joined.
05:13:38 -!- not^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
05:13:40 <quintopia> i mean, fizzie just went ahead and implemented all of them :P
05:14:47 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
05:15:53 -!- quintopia has set topic: The black hole of programming madness, or was it the other way around | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:17:39 <oerjan> it stands to reason that that washington guy had to get his name from somewhere other than the places that were named for him.
05:18:32 <Bike> maybe he was just descended from a washing machine.
05:28:26 <Dulnes> its probably the most intrusive app ive come acrosd
05:29:05 <Dulnes> so much.power over the ppl on my contact list
05:34:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Et cetera).
05:45:12 -!- copumpkin has joined.
05:50:30 <int-e> "skypr" sounds like a skype usr.
05:52:33 <Dulnes> http://animestuckneko.tumblr.com/image/102852169768 finally got around to mowing the lawn
05:58:41 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
06:01:36 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:08:42 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
06:18:53 <zzo38> I play this Dungeons&Dragons game, and if I find any beholders in this town, then I have two things that I can use to help in such a case: [1] Box of anti-magic fields [2] Holy symbol of Gxxyuxihuvxi
06:25:53 <zzo38> One of the kind of monsters in the game
06:26:17 <zzo38> It is involving ten small eyes can cast various spells, one big eye to make anti-magic field
06:26:37 <zzo38> AndoDaan: Did you read this level20.tex texts?
06:27:25 <zzo38> Such thing will explain various stuff
06:28:41 <AndoDaan> I've only played DandD once years ago. One of the best gaming experience of my life
06:29:34 <zzo38> You can read it, then. And then learn how I am playing such Dungeons&Dragons game.
06:31:13 <zzo38> Read http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex there I typed a story by recording all of the Dungeons&Dragons game.
06:31:25 <AndoDaan> is level20.tex suppose to be a weblink?
06:31:50 <Dulnes> but first before i read
06:32:00 <Dulnes> what is Dungeon and dragons
06:32:02 <zzo38> AndoDaan: It is supposed to be a Plain TeX document.
06:32:28 <zzo38> If you want to compile it by yourself, you will also need a file dungeonsrecording.tex which is in the same directory.
06:33:16 <Dulnes> ignore that hit enter instead of Back space
06:33:29 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
06:34:29 <zzo38> Anything with a percentage sign is a source comment; it won't render it or anything afterward. The command \note will become a footnote when rendered. Just to explain its working a bit.
06:36:52 <Dulnes> so what are you up to zzo38
06:38:27 <zzo38> Now I work on a program to convert Z-machine picture formats.
06:51:51 <zzo38> Do you know Pokemon Card playing?
06:54:14 <Dulnes> but before that i have to tell u something
06:54:33 <zzo38> OK, what do you like to tell me?
06:54:37 <Dulnes> Betty white is older than sliced bread
06:54:56 <zzo38> I do not understand.
06:55:40 <Dulnes> betty white was born in 1922 sliced bread was invented in 1928
06:55:58 <zzo38> O, OK. I don't know who is Betty White, but OK
06:56:42 <Dulnes> anyways, As you were saying?
06:56:58 <zzo38> I made up many puzzles involving Pokemon Card, as well as some new cards, and a few other things
06:58:00 <zzo38> It can be found in directory http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/ where puzzle.1 up to puzzle.5 are puzzle games, terminology.txt explains some terminology, newcards.txt is new cards I have made up (the ($1) and so on don't have a name yet), 59eye1mewtwo.txt is a document about the "59 eye + 1 Mewtwo" deck.
06:58:33 <zzo38> Did you make up any new pokemon cards too?
06:59:44 <Dulnes> ill get on that tommorow
07:01:18 <zzo38> I have invented a deck which is much more terrible than a "59 eye + 1 Mewtwo" deck, but nevertheless is 100% guaranteed to beat a "59 eye + 1 Mewtwo" deck.
07:01:35 <Dulnes> This is very well made
07:02:21 <Dulnes> Ill save this to my todo module
07:03:45 <zzo38> What is your opinion of some of these new card, puzzles, etc? Can you figure out any of them, or is it difficult?
07:04:59 <zzo38> Maybe some of the names isn't very good I don't quite know
07:05:41 <Dulnes> mmm I dont know what to.make of proffesor black
07:10:31 <AndoDaan> Back. Don't think I've ever compiled Tex before. Another learning oppertunity.
07:12:23 <zzo38> AndoDaan: Simply run the program "tex" on your computer; at the "**" prompt you type in the filename. Most implementations also allow specifying the filename as a command-line parameter.
07:13:26 <zzo38> The result will be a "dvi" file. (You can also download a precompiled DVI; it is called level20.dvi and is in the same directory.) DVI is a device-independent format for printing; it can be previewed directly, or converted into other formats such as PCL, PDF, PNG, DjVu, or whatever format your printer uses.
07:13:30 <AndoDaan> I think I first have to install an implementation.
07:13:56 <zzo38> Yes, you would need to. Even to use the DVI, you need fonts; a TeX installation will include the necessary fonts.
07:14:10 <zzo38> Yes, MiKTeX will do and is what I have.
07:15:35 <zzo38> The previewer in MiKTeX is called "yap", so you can use that to open the DVI.
07:16:22 <AndoDaan> Okay. (dl and installing usually takes a while for this old laptop)
07:17:00 <AndoDaan> Does your D&D group play in person or online?
07:18:28 <AndoDaan> Must be a good group, seems like a big campaigne to take on.
07:20:46 <AndoDaan> Why aren't slaves ever named Thomas... or Bob. It's always something like "Kjugobe"
07:21:39 <zzo38> Well, Kjugobe is my character, and the name is made up by random
07:22:04 <zzo38> Slaves probably can be named Thomas or Bob, but there is nobody of these names in this story (yet).
07:23:38 <zzo38> My brother's character is named Also (this causes grammatical confusion sometimes).
07:23:55 <zzo38> I have a page about it in All The Tropes wiki.
07:26:38 <AndoDaan> Oh, sorry. "Also" just reminded me of Annyong means hello running gag in Arrested Development.
07:32:21 -!- Patashu has joined.
07:35:36 -!- Patashu has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:36:06 -!- Patashu has joined.
07:36:52 -!- AndoDaan has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:40:18 <zzo38> http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/level20.tex
08:17:16 <Jafet> > floor (250 / (40 * (25 % 18))) `const` "Sgeo"
08:18:01 <Sgeo> I should sleep
08:18:30 <Bike> > "a" `const` "b"
08:24:04 <mroman> fizzie: K. I'll fix it.
08:25:19 <int-e> > "a" `const` "b" `const` "c"
08:26:12 <mroman> @tell AndoDaan s<digit> is "set var" and g<digit> is "get var"
08:26:25 <int-e> > "a" `const` ("b" `const` "c") == ("a" `const` "b") `const` "c"
08:27:00 <mroman> @tell AndoDaan also {g1} doesn't work because Blocks aren't evaluated UNTIL you call eval. You can use |[g1]| though. |[ and ]| are like { } except stuff in between is evaled.
08:27:37 <int-e> Const is associative. It lacks a left unit to make monoid.
08:28:16 <int-e> hmm, I should s/Const/const/
08:28:23 <Jafet> It is a monoid on ()!
08:28:25 <mroman> !blsq 9s0|[g0g0?*|["hi"]|]|
08:28:34 <int-e> Because Now It Looks Like A Data Or Type Constructor.
08:28:58 <int-e> Jafet: But only if you take a relaxed view about bottoms.
08:29:38 <int-e> `seq` is a proper monoid on ().
08:30:18 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
08:36:31 <elliott> int-e: well, if you believe Reader is a monad...
08:44:19 -!- MoALTz has joined.
09:16:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:19:20 <elliott> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/24/programmers-price *cries*
09:22:43 <elliott> "Scopely, a mobile-game publishing company, rewards a new hire—or anyone who can deliver one—with eleven thousand dollars wrapped in bacon, an oil portrait of himself, and a harpoon gun." we're doomed
09:39:23 -!- weissschloss has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
09:41:42 -!- weissschloss has joined.
09:42:06 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
10:02:27 -!- mihow has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:03:30 <fizzie> "The mainly products of the factory are optical quartz glass, opaque quartz blanks,quartz substrate, quartz apparatus, quartz crystal singing bowls, quartz tuning forks, quartz rod, twin born quartz tube, quartz lamp, quartz heating elements, quartz tube and so on."
10:03:34 <fizzie> They're all about the quartz.
10:04:01 <mroman> Since this is the day of targeted advertisement I conclude you like quartz.
10:04:10 <Jafet> It looks like everything I knew about the quartz reproductive cycle has been wrong
10:04:21 -!- mihow has joined.
10:04:39 <fizzie> Technically, it was sent to the TI-86 robotfindskitten role address.
10:04:53 <fizzie> Don't know how they've associated that with quartz exactly.
10:07:29 <mroman> Through a new machine-learning algorithm.
10:15:06 -!- b_jonas has joined.
10:15:54 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: BBL).
10:29:27 <mroman> fizzie: Nice @Leapfrogging
10:34:54 <mroman> I kinda whish Java had destructors
10:36:24 <mroman> (not that silly finalize thing)
10:38:52 <fizzie> Perhaps you could emulate them with 'finally' blocks generated by processing your source with m4 and suitable macros, in what would be the pinnacle of elegance.
10:40:21 -!- weissschloss has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
10:40:48 <fizzie> They do have the try-with thing these days, isn't that kind of.
10:42:39 -!- weissschloss has joined.
10:44:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
10:51:15 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
10:52:16 <mroman> elliott: try-with statements
10:52:38 <mroman> try(conn = jdbc.getConnection();) { //blabla } catch(Exception e) { //blabla }
10:52:51 <mroman> which will close connection afterwards
10:53:17 <mroman> fizzie: it's kinda that.
10:53:33 <mroman> although I'd prefer something like...hm...
10:53:33 <fizzie> It works when the type in question implements java.lang.AutoCloseable.
10:53:45 <mroman> autoclose Connection conn = jdbc.getConnection();
10:53:58 <b_jonas> elliott: maybe you want python-like with blocks?
10:54:01 <mroman> where autoclose instructs the compiler to call close on connection when the method returns or throws
10:54:05 <elliott> so it's like Python's with
10:54:20 <elliott> b_jonas: I don't wan tanything, I was just asking what the try-with fizzie mentioned was :)
10:54:38 <fizzie> elliott: There's no "enter" method, just the "exit" (close), but quite like.
10:55:28 <elliott> what's the use of the enter method anyway?
10:56:40 <b_jonas> elliott: a possible use is that a mutex could have an enter method that locks that mutex, so the enter method can have different semantics than just creating that object
10:57:10 <b_jonas> the mutex object and the lock object aren't the same
10:57:49 <b_jonas> python also has proper c++-like destructors with reference counting too, but this is more explicit
10:58:44 <b_jonas> and more compatible with a possible non-refcounting implementation
10:58:51 <fizzie> In the Java-7+ land, you could write explicitly try(Lock uselessNameHere = new Lock(mutex)) { ... } in which case the constructor of the Lock would be the enter method, though.
10:59:25 <fizzie> Or perhaps mutex.lock().
10:59:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, that's the C++ way
10:59:41 <b_jonas> creating a separate lock object
10:59:54 <b_jonas> like { std::unique_lock mylock(somemutex); ... }
11:00:21 <elliott> b_jonas: there's a perversity about how Python deals with the disadvantages of reference counting, but refuses to exploit its advantages because hey what about Jython
11:01:30 <b_jonas> elliott: I don't think that's really the reason. it's just that they insist on extra-readable code, which is why they provide "with" because it's easier to see a "with" than to see which objects have a semantically significant destructor
11:01:57 <elliott> so are they going to use "with" to allocate memory too? :p
11:07:10 <b_jonas> elliott: memory can be garbage-collected, which doesn't count as observable behaviour
11:07:17 <b_jonas> the garbage-collection can be delayed
11:07:35 <elliott> b_jonas: sure but you can view closing files the samew ay
11:07:38 <b_jonas> whereas closing a file or unlocking a mutex can be an observable and important side effect that you have to do immediately
11:07:50 <elliott> it's just a question of what level you view things at
11:07:53 <b_jonas> sure, sometimes closing files can be delayed, and sometimes even freeing a mutex can be delayed
11:07:59 <elliott> certainly not freeing memory can hold up resources
11:08:06 <elliott> just like not closing a file
11:08:21 <b_jonas> yeah, I guess if you allocate so much memory that you _need_ it to be freed at a particular point in the code, you could with(mmap(...)) or something
11:08:33 <elliott> or just put a strategically-placed "del"
11:09:04 <elliott> point is, it can have effects anywhere between worse performance and your code not working; same for files. mutexes are much easier to argue as an application logic thing, admittedly
11:09:19 <elliott> in the end it's just a sliding scale where we make the trade-off of manual but precise vs. automatic but imperfect resource management
11:26:42 -!- boily has joined.
12:00:13 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:26:14 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ICONIC CHICKEN).
12:42:51 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (r0)!
12:42:58 <blsqbot> | "I have 358 non-special builtins!"
12:43:16 <mroman> 1.7.4dev as of now has 380
13:04:59 -!- HackEgo has joined.
13:11:18 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
13:24:26 <Taneb> Last night, before I went to bed, I had an idea, so I wrote it down on a piece of paper so I wouldn't forget it
13:24:53 <Taneb> "Data.Group.Homomorphism?" was what I wrote
13:25:00 <Taneb> And I left it on the living room table
13:25:12 <Taneb> One of my housemates has written "No." underneath
13:25:35 <mroman> I would have added "and a glas of milk please"
13:27:19 <Taneb> I drank so many glasses of milk last night...
13:29:09 <mroman> That sounds like an odd thing to brag about but ok...
13:29:53 <mroman> I actually rarely drink milk
13:30:13 <Taneb> It's less bragging, closer to regret
13:30:25 <Taneb> I drink too much milk :(
13:31:18 <Taneb> Went to bed after 5 AM
13:31:20 <mroman> I think at certain times I lay hours in bed thinking I'm sleeping and dreaming but I'm actually awake
13:31:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbolge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41020&oldid=39476 * TomPN * (+192)
13:31:50 <Taneb> I also had a weird dream...
13:31:59 <Taneb> It had Muse and George R. R. Martin in it
13:34:30 <Taneb> But waking up at 20 past 1 is great when you have lectures at half 10 and half 11
13:39:31 <mroman> you went to bed at 5 AM o_O
13:40:08 <elliott> please, Taneb has nothing on my sleep
13:41:18 <mroman> "The programming hole of black madness"?
13:41:26 <mroman> "The black programming of hole madness"?
13:55:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:57:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:03:55 <int-e> The black hole mattress of sound sleep.
14:10:17 <mroman> `learn_append mroman He also likes black madness.
14:10:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'mroman': mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW) He also likes black madness.
14:11:49 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ He/. He/' wisdom/mroman
14:13:15 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness.
14:16:24 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
14:22:23 <mroman> Today I recommended just doubling the password instead of using salts.
14:22:49 <mroman> i.e. h'(p) = h(p+p) instead of h'(p) = h(salt+p)
14:23:05 <mroman> It doubles your password security.
14:24:19 <mroman> Because the attacker doesn't know the salt this way!
14:24:32 <mroman> storing the salt in plaintext is giving it to the attacker for free
14:24:47 <elliott> this is some weak trolling :p
14:25:04 <mroman> elliott: But the idea is somewhat decent.
14:25:35 <mroman> non-disclosed salts make it harder to crack the password.
14:26:07 <elliott> I think I've had enough password security discussions with you for a lifetime :p
14:26:29 <mroman> My more advanced password system uses h'(p) = h(h(p)+p) of course.
14:26:53 <mroman> p+p isn't very strong for two character passwords .
14:27:44 <elliott> here's my favourite passwod system hash(p) = md1(md2(md3(md4(md5(p)))))
14:27:58 <elliott> as you can see it's 1*2*3*4*5 = 120 times more secure than just MD5
14:28:15 <elliott> I also put the result in a jpeg
14:28:17 <mroman> Shouldn't it be as secure as the least secure hash mechanism?
14:28:24 <elliott> no, it's 120 times as secure.
14:29:23 <elliott> for instance you wouldn't expect good_password_function(MD5(p)) to be as weak as MD5, because good_password_function(p) isn't as weak as the identity function
14:29:24 <mroman> No, but I'd be actually interested to know the weaknesses of h'(p) = h(h(p)+p)
14:29:36 -!- nicole has joined.
14:29:56 <HackEgo> nicole: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:30:30 <oerjan> `learn_append mroman He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function.
14:30:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'mroman': mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function.
14:30:50 <oerjan> i think this about sums up this discussion.
14:31:12 <mroman> You can always add more stuff!
14:31:20 <mroman> deducing the number of rounds from the password.
14:31:31 <mroman> h'(p) = h(h(p)+p, rounds=f(p))
14:32:02 <elliott> here's my updated password hash: hash2(p) = sha1(sha2(sha3(...sha512(p)...))). as you can see it is at least 512 factorial times stronger than my previous one
14:32:58 <mroman> The solution is btw that h(h(p)+p) doesn't help if two people have the same password
14:33:04 <mroman> so it's a stupid thing to do.
14:33:08 <oerjan> elliott: i sense that hash{n} may be an ackermannlike function.
14:33:43 <elliott> I'm sure we're giving nicole a fantastic impression of this channel's quality
14:34:11 <blsqbot> | {144 89 55 34 21 13 8 5 3 2 1 1}
14:34:13 <oerjan> well for this time of day, the usual channel activity would be *chirp*
14:34:16 <mroman> there. Better impression.
14:34:27 <elliott> oerjan: just wait for hashomega(p) = hash(hash2(hash3(...p...)))
14:35:27 <nicole> I mean you can only hash so many things ...
14:35:50 <mroman> and h(p)+h(p) is obviously better than h(p) because h(p)+h(p) must contain more bits.
14:36:38 <elliott> thankfully thanks to quantum computing we can stack an infinite number of hash functions
14:36:47 <elliott> okay, I should stop. I'm almost as bad as mroman
14:37:03 <nicole> yea I mean if you take the output of one hash and put that directly into another one you are taking a cross-section of the posibilites because fixed langth input on the second one
14:37:44 <mroman> Luckily nobody knows I'm designig a hash function called Burlesque .
14:38:17 <elliott> nicole: in H1(H2(p)), if H2's output is larger than H1's then you can cover all possible outputs of H1... you're not necessarily guaranteed to though, I forget what this property of H1 is called
14:38:32 <elliott> well, larger or even the same
14:38:49 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
14:40:24 <elliott> hi though, did you come here from the wiki? (in before you've already had the welcoming committee treatment and I look like a fool...)
14:40:53 <oerjan> it's ok boily isn't around to ask about body weigh
14:40:59 <nicole> I guess if you are using hash functions that are significantly different from eachother then it would be worth the extra stuff
14:41:32 <nicole> elliott: nah I just thought it would be fun in here and stuff.
14:41:53 <elliott> nicole: you're going to be so disappointed...
14:42:24 <nicole> elliott: well I have not been let down yet...
14:43:51 <elliott> I'll make sure to keep making up nonsense hash functions, then
14:44:43 <oerjan> well nicole hasn't left yet despite our best attempts at making a hash of it.
14:48:50 <elliott> I think we've scrambled nicole quite enough already
14:49:09 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (!!) Invalid arguments!
14:49:09 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (s@)!
14:49:28 <mroman> that's my hash function I guess!
14:50:39 <blsqbot> | "1011111001001011010110111"
14:50:55 <mroman> not sure how to reverse that
14:51:04 <mroman> nicole: it's r@, not s@
14:51:13 <blsqbot> | {"abcd" "bacd" "cbad" "bcad" "cabd" "acbd" "dcba" "cdba" "cbda" "dbca" "bdca" "bcda" "dabc" "adbc" "abdc" "dbac" "bdac" "badc" "dacb" "adcb" "acdb" "dcab" "cdab" "cadb"}
14:51:50 <blsqbot> | {"" "a" "b" "ab" "c" "ac" "bc" "abc"}
14:52:34 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:53:55 <ais523> is that some sort of hash function?
14:54:38 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (**) Invalid arguments!
14:55:10 <elliott> I still can't understand a line of burlesque
14:55:33 <ais523> elliott: think of it as a normal stack language where all the commands have been replaced by arbitrary two-character sequences
14:55:34 <oerjan> there, now you understand one line
14:55:46 <elliott> nicole: the language the bot use
14:56:01 <mroman> ais523: that's actually a pretty good summary, yes.
14:57:13 <nicole> I know I am reading its github source right now and I cant make head or tails of this maybe ctags will help me tomorow
14:57:59 <mroman> There are two tutorials
14:58:16 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/tutorial.html <- this one
14:58:28 <mroman> http://fmnssun.github.io/Burlesque/ <- and that one
14:59:54 <mroman> ais523: it's got variables and functions now though
15:00:17 <mroman> !blsq %foo={)++} {{1 2}{3 4}} %foo!
15:00:50 <J_Arcane> I really should make a proper esolang again sometime, I always seem to wuss out and make something almost useful instead.
15:01:09 <mroman> I usually wuss out of making something useful and make something useless instead
15:02:24 <ais523> J_Arcane: if the language is both esoteric /and/ useful, so much the better
15:02:43 -!- S1 has joined.
15:02:44 <ais523> although My Unreliable Past is basically only useful for philosophical reasons, and/or implementing it on systems limited in a very weird way
15:02:57 <J_Arcane> VIOLET I guess is 'lesser evil
15:03:43 <J_Arcane> Though I do kinda dig the pseudohistoric languages more than just out-right crypticism.
15:07:04 <mroman> Did you take the Certified Burlesque Programmer (CBP) Test?
15:07:06 <ais523> juts got spam with the subject "my subject"
15:07:08 <nicole> !blsq "asdfqwer" "sgdfgfhj" IN
15:07:23 <ais523> I suspect someone was filling out an automated spambot configuration thing from a tutorial and took it a little too literally
15:07:52 <fizzie> (For no particular reason.)
15:09:40 <mroman> elliott: To become a CBP you must solve http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?number+lines+reverse in 11B in Burlesque
15:10:14 <elliott> can I just solve it in haskell and J and then smudge the two solutions together?
15:10:18 <elliott> pretty sure that's how burlesque works
15:12:36 <mroman> elliott: but you have to reverse it
15:12:46 <mroman> since J is right->left and blsq is left->right
15:12:50 -!- kline has changed nick to im1ach.
15:13:37 <mroman> Can't compete with that. Only have prefixes.
15:14:10 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
15:14:18 <mroman> that's actually a command prefix
15:14:37 <elliott> I mean, J is a f b, not f a b
15:17:51 <mroman> I'm sure you can write a Burlesque parser with infix .
15:17:57 -!- shikhin has joined.
15:18:43 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) Invalid arguments!
15:19:08 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (z[) Invalid arguments!
15:19:25 <mroman> that's not how zip works
15:19:29 <mroman> !blsq "mroman" "nicole" z0
15:19:29 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (z0)!
15:19:31 <mroman> !blsq "mroman" "nicole" z[
15:19:31 <blsqbot> | {{'m 'n} {'r 'i} {'o 'c} {'m 'o} {'a 'l} {'n 'e}}
15:19:39 <mroman> !blsq "mroman" "nicole"**
15:19:57 <nicole> didnt think that it did tha
15:21:00 <nicole> !blsq "mroman" "nicole" z[ u[
15:21:43 <nicole> some complex statitics stuff in here like variance
15:22:24 <mroman> and some distributions
15:22:28 <mroman> and a chi squared test
15:24:17 <nicole> that was a dissapointing output for coolmap
15:24:35 <mroman> !blsq "hi"{{zz}{ZZ}{<-}}M-
15:25:20 <mroman> !blsq "hi"{qzzqZZq<-}}M-
15:25:53 <mroman> !blsq "hi"{qzzqZZq<-}M-
15:26:58 <blsqbot> | ERROR: You should not transpose what you can't transpose. Yes this is an easteregg!
15:27:41 <nicole> !blsq {{h' i'}{b' g'}} tp
15:27:44 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘GHC.Types.Char’ with ‘[a]’
15:27:46 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2}{3 4}}tpBS
15:27:51 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2}{3 4}}tpSP
15:27:54 <mroman> !blsq {{1 2}{3 4}}tpsp
15:28:05 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (SP) Invalid arguments!
15:28:05 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (tb)!
15:28:09 <elliott> burlesque is useless for cooking
15:29:26 <nicole> !blsq {{h' i'}{b' ee}} cp
15:29:26 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!
15:29:34 <elliott> come on, that was funny :(
15:29:51 <mroman> !blsq {'h 'i}{'b ee}cp
15:29:52 <blsqbot> | {{'h 'b} {'h ee} {'i 'b} {'i ee}}
15:30:05 <mroman> !blsq {'h 'i}{'b ee}cpsp
15:30:31 <mroman> (sp is used to pretty print 2d arrays)
15:30:37 <nicole> !blsq {{3.4 5}{4 ee}} cp
15:30:37 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!
15:30:49 <mroman> nicole: cp wants two lists
15:30:54 <mroman> but you give it a list containing two lists
15:31:07 <nicole> !blsq {3.4 5}{4 ee} cpsp
15:32:13 <nicole> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1} cp
15:32:14 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 34):
15:32:14 <blsqbot> | expecting "%", "g", "s", "S", "m{", "q", "{", "\"", "-", digit, "'", "(", "y" or "}"
15:32:25 <nicole> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}} cpsp
15:32:47 <nicole> I was kinda wanting the crossproduct
15:33:16 <mroman> that is the crossproduct
15:33:27 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}} )cpsp
15:33:27 <blsqbot> | [Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", "7 8", "\n", Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", "pi 6.1"]
15:33:47 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}} {p^cp}m[sp
15:33:47 <blsqbot> | [Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", Sh, "\n", 7, "\n", Sh, "\n", 8, "\n", Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", Sh, "\n", pi, "\n", Sh, "\n", 6.1]
15:33:58 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}}cp)cpsp
15:33:59 <blsqbot> | [Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", "[3.4, 5] [7, 8]", "\n", Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", "[3.4, 5] [pi, 6.1]", "\n", Sh, "\n", ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments!, "\n", "[9, ee] [7, 8]", "\n", S
15:34:01 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}}cp)cp
15:34:01 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments! {{3.4 5} {7 8}} ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments! {{3.4 5} {pi 6.1}} ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments! {{9 ee} {7 8}} ERROR: Burlesque: (cp) Invalid arguments! {{9 ee} {pi 6.1}}}
15:34:03 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}}cp
15:34:04 <blsqbot> | {{{3.4 5} {7 8}} {{3.4 5} {pi 6.1}} {{9 ee} {7 8}} {{9 ee} {pi 6.1}}}
15:34:11 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}}cp{p^cp}m[
15:34:11 <blsqbot> | {{{7 3.4} {7 5} {8 3.4} {8 5}} {{pi 3.4} {pi 5} {6.1 3.4} {6.1 5}} {{7 9} {7 ee} {8 9} {8 ee}} {{pi 9} {pi ee} {6.1 9} {6.1 ee}}}
15:34:13 <mroman> !blsq {{3.4 5}{9 ee}} {{7 8}{pi 6.1}}cp{p^cp}m[sp
15:34:14 <blsqbot> | [7, 3.4] [7, 5] [8, 3.4] [8, 5]
15:34:14 <blsqbot> | [pi, 3.4] [pi, 5] [6.1, 3.4] [6.1, 5]
15:34:14 <blsqbot> | [7, 9] [7, ee] [8, 9] [8, ee]
15:35:13 <mroman> also ee and pi aren't parse level constants
15:35:31 <mroman> but that's a new feature of 1.7.4
15:35:38 <mroman> so it's not documented yet.
15:36:38 <nicole> !blsq {3 -3 1} {-12 12 -4} cpsp
15:36:57 <nicole> nope that is suppoed to equal 0
15:37:01 <nicole> !blsq {3 -3 1} {-12 12 -4} cp
15:37:02 <blsqbot> | {{3 -12} {3 12} {3 -4} {-3 -12} {-3 12} {-3 -4} {1 -12} {1 12} {1 -4}}
15:37:26 -!- im1ach has changed nick to kline.
15:45:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:46:11 <nicole> I mean I am doing the math right in front of me... (-3x(-4))-(1x12) = 0
15:49:12 -!- vanila has joined.
15:51:26 -!- nicole has left ("Leaving").
15:53:50 <Dulnes> One of my cores overheated and broke sooo I need a new one, Any ideas?
15:55:40 <Dulnes> On where to buy one the ones i had were already came with the computer So ive just been using those. Ive looked for some but.all are 1/3 the size in how much space it has
15:56:59 <elliott> do you mean one of your CPUs
15:57:41 <Dulnes> so effectively i have no computer
15:58:14 <Dulnes> ill just buy a new one nvm
15:58:28 <elliott> ...can't you just use the remaining CPUs?
15:59:09 <Dulnes> nope :T they are broken also
15:59:40 <Dulnes> i really only need two CPUs
16:07:18 -!- hjulle has joined.
16:13:26 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
16:22:05 <Dulnes> mmm anyways thats.just my Dr
16:24:26 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:28:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?toroman: not found
16:29:26 <Dulnes> i forgot the cmd again well whatever
16:36:19 * oerjan kills a tab for the heresy of making unrequested sound
16:47:20 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
16:47:44 <int-e> oerjan: first adblock, then close
16:48:03 <oerjan> *first install adblock
16:48:17 <oerjan> it doesn't happen often enough to make me bother?
16:49:05 <Dulnes> regular adblock gets paid to not block ads
16:50:39 <int-e> yes, but an adblock author cooperating with ad providers, well it just smells fishy
16:51:03 <elliott> I remember there being fishier things about adblock edge
16:51:27 <elliott> but I use µBlock because it's the only one that doesn't use a trillion gigabytes of RAM injecting tons of CSS into every single page
16:52:38 <FireFly> I don't mind non-intrusive ads
16:52:54 <vanila> non intrusive ads don't exist!
16:53:51 <quintopia> "i hope you happen to click up here!"
16:54:04 <FireFly> Like, say, small webcomics making use of project wonderful to advertise other small webcomics
16:55:09 <int-e> I wish we had a viable business model for the web that is not based on surveillance.
16:55:36 <int-e> I don't mind the non-flashy ads, but I do mind the tracking.
16:56:03 <int-e> (much to my dismay, animated gifs still haven't quite died out.)
16:56:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:56:42 <int-e> I do wonder though, whether tracking has already moved on to the next obvious step: just buy webserver logs. Or take them for free (google analytics...)
16:57:17 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:57:19 <Dulnes> and the phisher ads are a annoying
16:57:36 <FireFly> Sure, that doesn't count as non-intrusive :P
16:57:55 -!- `^_^v has joined.
16:58:16 <elliott> int-e: have you seen panopticlick?
16:58:45 <Jafet> Just get the ISP to do tracking for you (Verizon)
17:00:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADS).
17:00:41 <int-e> "Currently, we estimate that your browser has a fingerprint that conveys at least 22.17 bits of identifying information." ... removing de_DE from the accepted languages, "Within our dataset of several million visitors, only one in 213,892 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours."
17:01:04 <int-e> I do have javascript disabled, otherwise this would be much much worse.
17:01:09 <elliott> then you stick out like a sore thumb but nobody can tell which sore thumb you are
17:01:18 <elliott> disabling javascript can actually help panopticlick :/
17:01:26 <Jafet> I'm pretty easy to track since I use elliott's useragent string
17:01:35 <elliott> IIRC tor browser without javascript gets more bits than tor browser with javascript
17:02:12 <int-e> elliott: That's not a good reason for enabling javascript.
17:02:34 <elliott> it's not, no. but it does mean it's not an unqualified win for pure tracking
17:03:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:05:13 <int-e> You can play other fun games. For example, Panopticlick currently has about 4.51 million samples.
17:06:27 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:09:29 <fizzie> "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,705,644 tested so far."
17:09:34 <fizzie> Yay, I'm a special snowflake.
17:09:50 <fizzie> (This was with scripts on.)
17:09:57 <elliott> q: how many bits does the exact "N bits"/"one in X" figure leak?
17:10:10 <elliott> wait, I guess that's kind of obvious
17:10:50 <fizzie> Heh, I had a unique HTTP_ACCEPT.
17:11:24 <mroman> I think nicole confuses cross product with the other kind of cross product
17:11:37 <int-e> elliott: the nice thing is that if you visit the page twice, the number gets smaller. so some simple linear algebra lets you estimate the number of total samples
17:11:44 <fizzie> (Thanks to manually putting 'el' there because I wanted β.zem.fi to show up in Chromium properly.)
17:12:18 -!- adu has joined.
17:12:52 <elliott> int-e: that sounds harder than just setting some header to something ridiculous to get a unique result like fizzie
17:13:11 <int-e> elliott: then it doesn't display a number
17:13:22 <elliott> 17:09:08 <fizzie> "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,705,644 tested so far."
17:13:22 <fizzie> Doesn't it say the "among the N tested so far" message for non-unique results?
17:13:22 <int-e> so you still have to reload, and then multiply by 2
17:13:39 <elliott> it is less mathematically elegant I admit
17:13:44 <int-e> I thought I tested that ... it has been a while though, admittedly.
17:15:28 <int-e> fizzie: no, it says "one in <N> visitors have the same fingerprint as you"
17:15:36 <int-e> (modulo precise wording)
17:15:56 <int-e> and "among our millions of samples"
17:17:22 <fizzie> I guess the exact count is just a prize for being unique, then.
17:20:20 <fizzie> Or if you're still doing a no-scripts version, at least for me the content (including the "among the N tested" message) comes directly from https://panopticlick.eff.org/index.php?action=ajax_log_clientvars over AJAX.
17:20:36 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
17:22:33 <fizzie> No, you're right; you need to be unique to get the exact number. That's funny.
17:22:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:27:13 <newsham> http://www.i-programmer.info/news/105-artificial-intelligence/7985-a-worms-mind-in-a-lego-body.html
17:27:19 <mroman> only one in 34,601 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours.
17:28:02 <mroman> that's with JS disabled though
17:28:43 <mroman> my browser plugin details are unique
17:32:15 <J_Arcane> http://danluu.com/empirical-pl/
17:37:59 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:39:37 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
17:41:58 * Melvar appears to have a unique HTTP_ACCEPT header.
17:49:23 -!- MoALTz has joined.
17:54:59 -!- NATT_SiM_ has joined.
17:55:04 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:56:33 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1).
17:56:58 <Taneb> Without quite realizing, I made GHC compute 10!, in unary, at compile time
17:57:22 <tromp_> how many days is 10! seconds?
17:57:47 <ais523> Taneb: has it finished yet?
17:57:49 <Taneb> > product [1..10] `div` (24*60*60)
17:57:53 <Taneb> ais523, I killed it
17:58:06 <ais523> 10 factorial's only a few million, IIRC
17:58:15 <ais523> the "unary" probably causes problems, though
17:58:51 <tromp_> a friend of mine just won the IOCCC with that computation
17:59:04 <ais523> oh, are the results out already?
17:59:14 <tromp_> only winners, no source yet
17:59:21 <ais523> I have a theory that the number of submissions is actually reasonably small
17:59:42 <Bike> > product [1, 7, 2, 3] `div` (1)
18:00:34 <J_Arcane> Dammit, I'm supposed to be doing homework but now I want to write a for w/carry version of !.
18:01:21 <ais523> where ! means factorial?
18:01:32 <ais523> for some reason, the first association that came into my head was Prolog's cut
18:01:44 <Taneb> Right, ran it with a sufficiently small value of 10 (ie., 7), and it doesn't compile
18:01:51 <Taneb> Context reduction stack overflow
18:02:29 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/114452
18:05:12 <Bike> gonna need a compiler that rewrites product[...]/product[...] based on factorization
18:05:36 <Bike> actually let's say general rational functions
18:05:37 <Taneb> Just realised that only had 7 as a sufficiently small value of 10 if 6 is a sufficiently small value of 7
18:06:18 <Bike> hey taneb maybe you should implement a more efficient multiplication algorithm and that would fix it
18:06:35 <Bike> i'm thinking schönhage
18:06:52 <Bike> or fürer but taht seems overcomplicated
18:07:23 <Taneb> Bike, it's doing it in unary
18:07:34 <Taneb> Any binary multiplication'd be much much faster
18:07:42 <Bike> exactly. i think you need fourier transforms
18:08:47 <ais523> fourier-based multiplication doesn't work in unary
18:08:57 <ais523> needs a hyperpositive base to work
18:09:00 <ais523> (i.e. more positive than 1)
18:10:14 <b_jonas> this conversation is surreal
18:11:15 <ais523> b_jonas: half the reason I even stay here is to have surreal conversations
18:14:32 <Bike> data N; data O n; data Z n; type family x + y; type instance N + n = n; type instance Z m + Z n = Z (m + n); type instance Z m + O n = O (m + n); type instance O m + O n = Z (m + (n + O N))
18:14:42 <Bike> i'm sure this is totally reasonable and also that i know the haskells.
18:15:27 <elliott> pretty sure that would work as-is
18:15:47 <Bike> fuck you if you want to add an odd number and an evne number in that order, though. you're what's wrong with america.
18:16:50 <Bike> the order is inside out from what i originally thought of, though. life is suffering tbh.
18:19:20 <Bike> type instance Z m * Z n = Z (Z (m * n)); type instance Z m * O n = (Z m + Z (Z (m * n))); type instance O m * O n = (O m + O n + Z (Z (m * n)) + O N)
18:20:01 <Bike> glad i can contribute to taneb doing completely reasonable things.
18:23:29 <Bike> oh and N * n = N i /guess/
18:24:17 <int-e> nice, binary arithmetic
18:25:05 <Bike> for my next trick, a carry lookahead adder
18:25:51 <Jafet> Circuit parallelism in the type system
18:26:04 -!- NATT_SiM_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:26:16 <Jafet> Never before seen in the civilised world, ladies and gentlemen
18:26:31 <J_Arcane> Hmmm. I think carry is doing crazy things ...
18:26:51 <ais523> Bike: now I'm trying to figure out if that violin-based adder is carry lookahead
18:27:00 <int-e> Bike: I'd try and optimize that a bit: type instance Z m * Z n = Z (Z (m * n)); type instance Z m * O n = Z (m + Z (m * n)); type instance O m * Z n = Z (n + Z (m * n)); type instance O m * O n = O (n + m + Z (m * n))
18:27:22 <Bike> even reasonabler.
18:28:34 <int-e> But I'll punt on the carry look-ahead.
18:28:40 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
18:29:26 <ais523> We can define the sum in terms of the carry, and the carry in terms of itself:
18:29:28 <ais523> * `sum` = `x` bitwise-XOR `carry`
18:29:29 <ais523> * `carry` = (`a` bitwise-OR (`x` bitwise-AND `carry`)) leftshifted 1
18:29:32 <ais523> there's the basic algorithm
18:29:50 <ais523> (`x` and `a` are the bitwise-xor and bitwise-and of the numbers you're adding
18:30:26 <Bike> i'm not sure how you'd do bitwise operations on types.
18:30:30 <J_Arcane> Sigh. I am an idiot. Carry works fin, I was using my function variable instead of my loop variable to accumulate the value ...
18:30:49 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
18:30:55 <Bike> i've got it. what if we just used some kind of sub-type programming. we could have "number" objects and "functions" operating on them. maybe we could evne make "numbers" a type
18:33:29 <Bike> "the HT80C51 processor (2007???) from Handshake Solutions" so the wikipedia article on async cpus is pretty shitty
18:34:11 <Bike> «During demonstrations, the researchers amazed viewers by loading a simple program which ran in a tight loop, pulsing one of the output lines after each instruction. This output line was connected to an oscilloscope. When a cup of hot coffee was placed on the chip, the pulse rate (the effective "clock rate") naturally slowed down to adapt to the worsening performance of the heated transistors. When liquid
18:34:17 <Bike> nitrogen was poured on the chip, the instruction rate shot up with no additional intervention. Additionally, at lower temperatures, the voltage supplied to the chip could be safely increased, which also improved the instruction rate—again, with no additional configuration.»
18:34:26 <Bike> this, however, seems totally useful and practical. maybe if those resistors are busy computing 10! in unary
18:35:01 <Jafet> I would be amazed to see 10! being computed by resistors
18:35:06 <ais523> Bike: ooh, async CPUs is pretty close to what I was doing on my thesis, before I discovered the underlying theory sucked
18:35:10 <J_Arcane> (fact n) in Heresy: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/534414254510997504
18:35:20 <Bike> ais523: yeah i remember you mentioned that
18:35:23 <Bike> ais523: sucks how
18:35:51 <Bike> J_Arcane: well /now/ it looks eso, good job
18:36:19 <J_Arcane> I plan to add carry support to do loop as well. It's a filed issue.
18:37:13 <Bike> ais523: like, does it inherently suck, or is it just like wikipedia says and nobody's worked on it.
18:37:20 <ais523> you should see how many ridiculous recursive fibonaccis we've written in Verity
18:37:23 <ais523> the lastest one makes the compiler crash
18:40:23 <J_Arcane> Bike: Shit like that is why I called it Heresy. :D
18:40:48 <Bike> what can i say, anaphoric macros leave a bad taste in m mouth
18:40:51 <ais523> Bike: basically, the state is that there was a bunch of work done in Holland like 20 years ago that had some promising results
18:40:57 <ais523> but fell a little short of the result everyone ants
18:41:11 <ais523> and mentioned that that would be a sensible result to aim for
18:41:13 <ais523> then nothing else happened
18:41:28 <Bike> i'm just curious about async cpus since it seems a bit like biological clocks
18:42:16 <Bike> has there been any research on karman streets appearing in multicore async cpus? i'm sure this is a major research area
18:42:27 <J_Arcane> Bike: Also fun, underneath it's still technically entirely functional code. Heresy's for is a recursive list eater, even carry is just passing one of the optional arguments to the next recursion.
18:50:27 -!- S1 has joined.
18:57:22 <J_Arcane> Oh maaan. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Vintage-Gimix-Ghost-6809-computer-OS-9-GMX-I-complete-original-box-extras-/231387896256?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item35dfcb19c0
18:57:49 <Taneb> Right, I've got it to use bnary addition
18:57:56 <Taneb> Which makes it so much faster
19:04:31 <Taneb> Now I've got a less naive implementation of multiplication too :)
19:06:35 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/114454
19:11:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
19:12:10 -!- Sprocklem has changed nick to Guest76372.
19:24:35 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:26:02 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
19:27:26 <Dulnes> omfg my power went out
19:32:59 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
19:33:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:33:04 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
19:33:30 <Vorpal> ais523, did you ever do anything with my patches to build ick on classic Mac OS?
19:33:43 <Vorpal> I happened to find them the other day, and I was wondering whatever happened to that
19:33:47 <ais523> Vorpal: no, other than admire them
19:33:50 <ais523> I don't have a Mac Classic
19:33:56 <ais523> I can put them as a branch in the repository if you like?
19:34:19 <Vorpal> ais523, thanks I guess. But eh I don't have time to maintain them or such
19:34:40 <ais523> just as a "historical interest" thing, like the DOS port
19:34:49 <Vorpal> Still using darcs btw?
19:35:06 <Vorpal> ais523, also remember the mac Makefile *has* to be encoded as MacRoman not ASCII in order to work
19:35:28 <ais523> Vorpal: ESR ported like five different repos into git
19:35:49 <ais523> Vorpal: you should probably read this: http://nethack4.org/blog/save-optimization.html
19:35:53 <ais523> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491
19:36:07 <ais523> (you can read my post about optimizing save files in NH4 too if you like but it's not what I was trying to link you to)
19:36:23 <ais523> both because it describes the history of the repo, and because it offers an insight into what it's like trying to work with ESR
19:37:50 <Dulnes> guys is noscript something i should get
19:38:07 <Vorpal> ais523, oh okay, I already clicked before I saw your link. I was just going to write: "interesting, but what has this got to do with anything?"
19:38:44 <ais523> Dulnes: if you have a personality like me, it's really useful
19:38:48 <ais523> I don't know how much like me you are, though
19:38:58 <ais523> I see it as a way of generally removing annoyances, many of which people believe to be useful functionality
19:38:59 <elliott> Dulnes: don't you need to fix your broken CPUs first?
19:39:01 <Vorpal> ais523, "trying to work"?
19:39:45 <Dulnes> which ive been trying to do while i was gone
19:40:03 <elliott> did you clean them with soap
19:40:24 <Dulnes> im transplanting my desktops CPUs out
19:40:33 <ais523> elliott: is Dulnes Sgeo, or have you changed who you give humorous bad advice to?
19:41:09 <elliott> ais523: I'm happy to give bad advice to people who I think are trying to troll me badly <_<
19:41:18 <Dulnes> And no im not cleaning it with soap
19:41:50 <Dulnes> elliott: why would i have a reason to troll you? i dont even know you
19:42:13 <elliott> Dulnes: what language is (hh)++["^§"].g[ss.h]+++-[ " ok " ." irc.web_host " ]+++( " * " )-[ "»»»" ] = <.irc.app_module> [ "«««" ] in anyway?
19:42:45 <Vorpal> ais523, well, esr has a /significant/ ego I can tell at this point.
19:42:55 <Dulnes> also its my friends bots code
19:43:10 <Dulnes> im just borrowing it >_>
19:43:39 <elliott> ok. you need to fix your broken CPU core so you can code in your skypes again
19:44:14 <Dulnes> or i can just throw my entire desktop out the window
19:44:29 <Dulnes> and use my phone forever
19:44:37 <elliott> in summary, I have no idea what could have possibly given me the impression that you're not saying true things
19:44:57 <Dulnes> i dont need you to believe me
19:45:13 <Dulnes> i just need to know where to buy a good one
19:45:15 <ais523> !bfjoust dulnes_example (hh)++["^§"].g[ss.h]+++-[ " ok " ." irc.web_host " ]+++( " * " )-[ "»»»" ] = <.irc.app_module> [ "«««" ]
19:45:17 <zemhill> ais523.dulnes_example: points -30.67, score 3.72, rank 47/47
19:45:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_dulnes_example: 6.1
19:45:27 <ais523> I guess it probably isn't BF Josut?
19:45:42 <elliott> ais523: I don't think it's anything seeing as the last snippet of bot code before that had unmatched barckets
19:45:49 <elliott> and random embedded brainfuck code
19:46:04 <elliott> and also the "bot" connected via webchat :p
19:46:12 <ais523> it was me who pointed that out
19:46:23 <ais523> thing is, that might actually be a sane impl on Windows 95
19:46:52 <ais523> hmm, are we talking about the same person?
19:47:12 <elliott> ais523: yes, I just didn't pay as much attention yesterday
19:47:28 <elliott> I think you can get a browser that will run webchat on Windows 95, but only just
19:47:36 <Dulnes> werent we talking about black holes
19:47:41 <elliott> thankfully none of this is a true thing
19:48:17 <Vorpal> ais523, also consider model based checking for ick? Like QuickCheck.
19:48:52 <Vorpal> Might be fun, writing a haskell FFI for intercal so you can use quickcheck on it. Maybe?
19:49:40 <ais523> Vorpal: actually I wrote something for fuzzing the optimizer which is vaguely similar to that
19:49:42 <ais523> it generates random INTERCAL expressions, then feeds a bunch of random numbers through them (many of which have significant values like powers of 2)
19:50:00 <elliott> there's quickcheck ports to other languages
19:50:09 <ais523> and sees if they produce the same result on an optimized and unoptimized program
19:50:17 <ais523> we found several optimizer bugs that way
19:50:29 <Vorpal> elliott, I know a guy who ported it/is porting it to C++11. :/
19:50:57 <Vorpal> Well, apart from C++ not being reasonable, sure
19:50:57 <ais523> incidentally, I'm /still/ not sure if ESR has figured out that I'm a different person from Claudio Calvelli yet
19:51:08 <Vorpal> ais523, have you told him?
19:51:27 <ais523> I think I did once, but there's not much point really
19:51:44 <ais523> I'll mention it again if it ever becomes important
19:52:16 <elliott> why would you go out of your way to talk to esr :p
19:52:25 <Vorpal> ais523, cfunge has an even simpler fuzz test btw, where it feeds a random program into cfunge (which is set to run in "safe mode", which disables instructions that could affect system state, like writing a file). It then checks if it crashes within x seconds, if not it runs it again under valgrind for another x seconds and checks for errors being reported.
19:53:16 <ais523> strangely enough, I'd made my own attempt to collect old INTERCAL versions independently from ESR
19:53:21 <ais523> but he has better connections than I do, so was better at it
19:54:33 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, feel free to put up that patch if you still have it around. I don't currently know where I have it as a patch. I just found the source and build directory on the old mac.
19:54:44 <Vorpal> Where there is no version control.
19:55:31 <Vorpal> Oh and if I didn't credit myself already, note down it was me who did it somewhere. And remember the Mac MPW Makefile must be encoded as MacRoman.
19:55:36 -!- Guest76372 has quit (Changing host).
19:55:37 -!- Guest76372 has joined.
19:55:59 <ais523> Vorpal: do you know which version it was a patch /against/?
19:56:00 -!- Guest76372 has changed nick to Sprocklem.
19:56:30 <Vorpal> ais523, no, but I guess I could check if you know a reasonble way to detect it?
19:57:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm starting sheepshaver right now
19:57:09 <ais523> Vorpal: if you have the complete source directory as well as the patch, you could reverse the patch and apply it to the source dir
19:57:29 <Vorpal> I do not have the patch, just the complete source & build directory
19:57:51 <ais523> let's see if I have the patch
19:58:00 <ais523> please tarball up at least the source directory
19:58:17 <ais523> tarballing up the build directory is not "technically" necessary as it should be in theory reproducible, but I'm not sure that most peopel actually can
19:58:40 <Vorpal> ais523, tarball doesn't do resource forks do it?
19:58:49 <Vorpal> So the build directory will be corrupted
19:58:54 <Vorpal> Source should be fine though
19:58:55 <ais523> Vorpal: OS X can tarball resource forks
19:59:02 <ais523> no idea if that was backported to Classic though
19:59:21 <Vorpal> I will have to copy it as-is to a different computer and then tar it there
19:59:23 <ais523> do you have any proprietary Mac-specific archiver?
19:59:31 <ais523> someone's probably reverse-engineered it by now
19:59:48 <Vorpal> ais523, hm there is the directory "ick mac" and "ick mac - new" directories.
19:59:56 <Vorpal> I will copy both and diff them
20:00:03 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:00:09 <Vorpal> Oh great there is ick-mac.prev too
20:00:41 <Vorpal> Oh and a locked disk image marked "ick"
20:01:07 <elliott> sounds like you have a bit of an
20:02:18 <Vorpal> Well I copied all the ones I found. I will do some directory diffing now
20:02:47 -!- Patashu has joined.
20:05:14 <vanila> There was a follow-up study that illustrated the issue by inviting Lispers to come up with their own solutions to the problem, which involved comparing folks like Darius Bacon to random undergrads. A follow-up to the follow-up literally involves comparing code from Peter Norvig to code from random college students.
20:05:22 <vanila> could you help me find that follow-up please?
20:05:31 <vanila> http://danluu.com/empirical-pl/#wat_summary
20:05:35 <vanila> regarding this linked earlier
20:07:50 <Vorpal> ais523, one of the versions involve resource fork :/
20:08:07 <Vorpal> No, there is a resource script I think
20:08:38 <Vorpal> ais523, Are you sure you don't have the patch around any more?
20:10:27 <Vorpal> ais523, oh I think this will show a dialog box with the options to the ick command in MPW
20:10:44 <ais523> Vorpal: haven't looked for it yet, got confused
20:11:14 <ais523> Vorpal: I have a "macppc_beginning.patch" but it's just 637 lines long
20:11:38 <Vorpal> can you upload that somewhere?
20:12:15 <ais523> Vorpal: nethack4.org/esolangs/macppc_beginning.patch
20:13:05 <Vorpal> That mime type, I guess I'll download it
20:13:28 <ais523> what mime type does my server give it?
20:13:55 <Vorpal> Something that makes firefox want to save it rather than view it
20:14:30 <Vorpal> Anyway, it appears that I have a newer version here, since ick.r is missing in your patch
20:14:32 <ais523> ah right, I think my server just doesn't know what type it is
20:15:08 <Vorpal> ais523, The big problem is that 1) I don't know which files are generated any more 2) I have no idea if the resource fork or file type matter on any of these files
20:15:22 <Vorpal> As in the mac creator flag and file type (4 letters each)
20:16:02 <Vorpal> Heh, sublime does macroman, nice
20:16:21 <Vorpal> elliott, What is the command to search the logs?
20:16:35 <ais523> Vorpal: there isn't one any more because HackEgo doesn't have access to them
20:16:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41021&oldid=39850 * Nthern * (+222) /* Capuirequiem reference interpreter */ new section
20:16:49 -!- shikhout has joined.
20:17:20 <Vorpal> ais523, I do have a backup disk that might contain the Linux side repo of this, let me look at it (I have reinstalled this computer since I did that)
20:19:27 <Vorpal> ais523, this might be of interest: http://sprunge.us/OOGg
20:19:41 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:23:14 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
20:26:02 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:27:57 <Vorpal> ais523, okay so I know which version to use now. However, this is with resource forks stored as the sheepshaver emulator does it when you copy file to the shared-with-host virtual disk thing.
20:28:10 <Vorpal> I have no idea if this is useful for anyone using a real mac
20:28:24 <ais523> I have no idea if all this is useful even for someone running Linux
20:28:54 <Vorpal> And on my real mac I only have stuffit for compressing it. Also there are no build instructions anywhere, except for esolang logs I guess. I certainly have no idea how to build it any more.
20:30:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm writing a short read me with the stuff I know about (not much at this point) then sending it to you
20:45:08 <Vorpal> ais523: https://www.dropbox.com/s/65xc2m46wu3itih/ick-mac_final.tar.xz?dl=0
20:46:11 <ais523> hmm, another website that claims to require JavaScript, but actually doesn't
20:46:18 <Vorpal> ais523, Hope you can figure out which version it is based on (probably a darcs revision, not a specific release)
20:46:29 <ais523> Vorpal: ooh, I have an ick-mack-patches directory too
20:46:38 <ais523> that I didn't notice last time I looked
20:46:46 <Vorpal> ais523, okay? I have no idea about that
20:47:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I do think some of the source is patched to fix issues with path generation
20:47:18 <ais523> Vorpal: what's the README actually named?
20:47:24 <int-e> ais523: is it one of those that include a CSS file that hides most contents?
20:47:48 <Vorpal> ais523, macppc/Makefile *must be MacRoman*
20:48:00 <Vorpal> ais523, it looks like it contains weird letters, because it does
20:48:10 <ais523> that ick_createdata thing looks like a bug that should be fixed
20:48:16 <ais523> also, you've gone on about this encoding thing like 10 times now
20:48:20 <ais523> it's not like iconv doesn't exist
20:48:39 <Vorpal> ais523, well, just treat it as a binary file is probably best.
20:49:20 <ais523> except, hmm, iconv doesn't know the name "macroman"
20:49:49 <ais523> oh, it's just called "macintosh"
20:49:55 <ais523> SysLibs = {ShareDir}syslib.i ∂
20:50:02 <ais523> is that the correct transcode to UTF-8?
20:50:10 <Vorpal> ais523, ∂ is line continuation \
20:50:14 <Vorpal> There is another character too
20:50:31 <ais523> {ObjDir} ƒ {SrcDir} {PreBDir} {GenSrcDir}
20:50:33 <ais523> who designed this syntax
20:50:40 <Vorpal> ais523, I have no idea
20:50:54 <ais523> this is like British people using ¬ and £ in language definitions because they don't know better
20:51:04 <ais523> (and I think ¬ is on UK keyboards because it's in EBCDIC?)
20:51:13 <Vorpal> ais523, also there is ƒƒ but I don't remember how it differs. ƒƒƒ even i think?
20:51:48 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway if you can commit it as a binary file it is probably best to do so, saves people from having to re-encode it if they want to use it.
20:52:19 <ais523> huh, according to Wikipedia, there is actually also a capital Ƒ
20:53:17 <Vorpal> Bicyclidine, yes the make file is louder :P
20:53:25 <Vorpal> ais523, in MPW make files!?
20:53:30 <ais523> Wikipedia also has dire warnings about confusing the character in the Makefile with ʄ
20:53:32 <ais523> Vorpal: no, just in general
20:53:49 <Vorpal> ais523, wikipedia has a page on MPW make files?
20:53:58 <ais523> it has a page on ƒ though
20:54:28 <Vorpal> ais523, you should look at the comment near the top of uncommon.c where it deals with path separators
20:54:40 <ais523> oh, Wikipedia actually has two paragraphs on MPW make files
20:54:43 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop#Writing_MPW_tools
20:55:17 <Vorpal> ais523, yep I basically build ick as an MPW tool
20:55:29 <Vorpal> Otherwise there would be no command line argument support
20:55:52 <Vorpal> ais523, after reading uncommon.c you will ask again "who designed this syntax"
20:56:57 <ais523> huh, this is pretty similar to Wikipedia escaping syntax
20:57:27 <Vorpal> How are mac paths similar? Or the make file?
20:57:31 <ais523> [[page]] is [[:page]] is named "page" (and are the same page), [[::page]] would be a page named ":page" but that's disallowed because the software gets confused handling its own escaping syntax
20:58:28 <Vorpal> ais523, that makes no sense, what does the single : actually do there?
20:58:44 <ais523> forces the link to be an actual link
20:58:56 <ais523> rather than something else that might have similar syntax
20:59:07 <ais523> e.g. [[:Category:2014]] compared to [[Category:2014]] on Esolang
20:59:38 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I patched ick to not generate foo//bar in compile commands I remember, since that breaks with foo::bar on mac
21:00:13 <Vorpal> ais523, also classic mac supports / in file and directory names (it was forbidden in 9.1 or so I think, in preparation for OS X)
21:00:38 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
21:00:42 <Vorpal> Forbidden as in "you can't create new ones"
21:02:09 <Vorpal> ais523, oh another thing I remember now that I forgot in the readme. ick will output the compiler commands to run. Since MPW tools can't execute other tools
21:02:21 <Vorpal> Because reasons and fucked up memory management
21:02:40 <Vorpal> IIRC they are basically loaded as libraries into the MPW workbench
21:03:05 <Vorpal> And it would cause freezes if it tried to run another tool
21:03:36 <ais523> so basically a permanent -c
21:05:30 <Vorpal> there are some patches in perpet.c it appears (I find this file naming confusing btw)
21:05:50 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:06:05 <ais523> Vorpal: basically, the file names are tangentially related to the purpose of the file
21:06:13 <ais523> that's it, that's the only principle behind the names
21:06:20 <ais523> so there's normally some connection, but a very remote one
21:06:41 <ais523> that said, I have no idea what's behind the name "feh.c" (which eventually became "feh2.c")
21:07:52 <int-e> @google fiddle lose ick feh
21:07:53 <lambdabot> https://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/source/9745c958c4bc00939fd244d78530ad232be61b72:Makefile
21:08:17 <Vorpal> ais523, searching for #ifdef MPW_C and variants of that should probably help you find most patches
21:08:20 <int-e> (those are some good search terms)
21:09:58 <Vorpal> ais523, perpet.c line 807-826 might be interesting too
21:20:28 <fizzie> Just bought: one-way tickets to London.
21:20:30 <fizzie> And § is another only-in-some-keyboards key.
21:26:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:30:54 -!- yukko has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:31:03 -!- zemhill has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:31:24 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
21:34:10 <Vorpal> I have §. Unshifted even
21:34:30 <Vorpal> It is the key to the left of 1
21:34:45 <Vorpal> What is that on US keyboards I wonder
21:34:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~: not found
21:36:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: We do, too, because the Finnish layout is practically identical to the Swedish one.
21:37:07 <Vorpal> It is a fairly useless symbol
21:37:39 <fizzie> The British layout has ` and ¬ there. (So same as US in that regard, except with ¬ replacing ~.)
21:38:09 <fizzie> (They've got # and ~ in the key where we have ' and *.)
21:38:37 <fizzie> (Also I just used § in an email today.)
21:39:51 <ais523> the British keyboard also has a second | on altgr-`
21:39:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:40:22 <ais523> it produces the same character as shift-\ on Linux, but typically a different character from | on Windows (often a "broken" pipe)
21:40:25 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
21:41:19 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:41:57 -!- zemhill has joined.
21:44:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host).
21:44:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:45:49 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
21:46:28 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
21:48:04 <fizzie> The broken bar can be confusing.
21:48:08 -!- zemhill has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:49:06 <fizzie> A relatively common Finnish keymap has the key-between-z-and-shift as < unshifted, > with shift, | (solid bar) with altgr and ¦ (broken bar) with shift-altgr.
21:49:41 -!- perrier has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:51:18 -!- perrier has joined.
21:51:33 <fizzie> Though that's not an official part of the modern SFS (Finnish national standards body) 2008 fi keymap -- it doesn't define any level4 meaning for the key.
21:52:10 -!- yukko has joined.
21:52:51 <fizzie> It's the most mortal of layouts: there's a total of 19 dead keys (if you count all shift levels separately).
21:53:44 -!- zemhill has joined.
21:55:55 <b_jonas> yeah, the latin1 broken bar
21:56:17 <b_jonas> I have a mark next to it in my font because my normal bar | is broken too
21:56:25 <fizzie> And the SFS layout also has the worst thing, which is putting a non-breaking space as altgr-space. Combine with the fact that | comes from altgr-< and every third pipeline fails due to an unintentional nbsp between | and the command.
21:57:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's a bad idea. there's a good reason why shift-space and altgr-space still has to give space
21:57:25 <olsner> mac seems to generically have alt-space as nbsp, regardless of layout
21:57:30 <b_jonas> in fact, in my weird layout I use capslock to write hungarian letters,
21:57:44 <b_jonas> but I don't have to press it exactly, because all the a-z letters still produce the same thing with caps lock as without
21:57:54 <olsner> (at least I've never seen swedish layout produce nbsp except on mac)
21:58:00 <b_jonas> and produce the same letter with capslock-shift as with shift
21:58:11 <b_jonas> so I can hold the capslock for longer than needed
21:58:33 <b_jonas> I only have some extra symbols on capslock-digits and capslock-shift-digits
22:02:15 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:03:07 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:07:08 <int-e> Oh well, Unicode is just weird. ⌨
22:08:10 <int-e> but now I can type ⦇⟦⦃«⟪⟫»⦄⟧⦈
22:08:41 <Vorpal> <ais523> it produces the same character as shift-\ on Linux, but typically a different character from | on Windows (often a "broken" pipe) <-- \ is altgr-+ for me, | is altgr + key left of z
22:08:45 <Vorpal> ais523, so that didn't help
22:09:07 <ais523> key left of z on a UK keyboard is \ unshifted, | shifted
22:09:10 <Vorpal> <fizzie> A relatively common Finnish keymap has the key-between-z-and-shift as < unshifted, > with shift, | (solid bar) with altgr and ¦ (broken bar) with shift-altgr. <-- same for my Swedish keymap
22:09:16 <int-e> . u ⟅ I wonder whether anybody uses these... ⟆
22:09:35 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It's the most mortal of layouts: there's a total of 19 dead keys (if you count all shift levels separately). <-- Does Swedish have that much?!?
22:10:16 <olsner> of course not, we're not finns are we?
22:10:29 <int-e> (Actually I have seen ⟅ ⟆ on somebody's slides recently.)
22:10:38 <fizzie> The "traditional" Finnish layout doesn't have that much, at least.
22:11:48 <Vorpal> <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's a bad idea. there's a good reason why shift-space and altgr-space still has to give space <-- I had issues in some terminal, I think it was either the cygwin one or putty with altgr-<key right of å> (which yields ~ as a dead key, so you have to type altgr+key-left-of-å <space>) opening the menu on altgr-space
22:12:04 <Vorpal> When I didn't release altgr quickly enough
22:12:34 <fizzie> ▕block drawing for absolute value▏
22:12:45 <Vorpal> That renders poorly for me
22:12:51 <olsner> tilde on a dead key is not great for coding
22:12:53 <Vorpal> the | and the b merge together
22:13:16 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
22:13:46 <int-e> olsner: I learned to hate dead keys in Pascal. ~ wasn't an issue. ^ was.
22:13:52 <olsner> especially bad in editors that don't handle dead keys
22:14:08 <Vorpal> int-e, oh yes, ^ is shift-<key left of å> for me
22:14:11 <olsner> I guess I just wrote c++ without destructors
22:15:11 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, hopefully you can do something with that tarball. Figure out what it was based on and then put it up there for historical interest
22:15:24 <fizzie> I hit some issue recently where ~ was a dead key, but also pressing ~ + space did not insert ~ but ̃, which is not really good for anything.
22:15:31 <fizzie> (That's a space with COMBINING TILDE.)
22:15:46 <fizzie> And pressing ~ + ~ didn't insert anything.
22:15:52 <fizzie> I couldn't figure out any way to get a regular ~ out of it.
22:16:10 <int-e> that sounds utterly broken.
22:16:28 <fizzie> I think it was some virtual on-screen thing, I forget which device.
22:16:47 <ais523> Vorpal: I'll have a look when I'm more awake and working on INTERCAL
22:17:11 <ais523> thanks for the files, anyway, we can probably make something of this
22:17:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm not around much, dropping me an email might be better if you need to get in contact with me.
22:19:22 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
22:20:52 <fizzie> Aw, we didn't get DNSSEC for esolangs.org. :/
22:21:01 <fizzie> Oh well, it's not like anyone actually uses it.
22:24:29 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:25:16 -!- AndoDaan has joined.
22:26:28 <Melvar> < fizzie> It's the most mortal of layouts: there's a total of 19 dead keys (if you count all shift levels separately). – Now I want to know wha they are, ’cause even Neo2 only has eighteen.
22:33:25 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: S1).
22:33:58 <fizzie> Melvar: Based on the layout image, some sort of horizontal-line-in-the-middle (1), grave accent (2), acute accent (3), cedilla (4), something that looks like flipped cedilla (5), a hook above (6), something cedilla-like on the right side (7), ring above (8), the Hungarian double acute accent (9), diaeresis (10), ^ above (11), ~ above (12), - above (13), two variants of reversed ^ that look ...
22:34:04 <fizzie> ... pretty similar (14, 15), dot above and below (16, 17)... and, hm. There's two more, but they look suspiciously similar to dot-above and horizontal-line-in-the-middle, so maybe they're redundant. I'll try and find the official list.
22:35:05 <fizzie> Here's the official list.
22:36:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:37:41 <fizzie> Yes, they're redundant. Sorry, so there are 19 dead keys but only 17 unique ones.
22:41:55 <fizzie> And the characters are 0301 0300 0327 0328 031B 0309 030B 030A 0308 0302 0303 0304 030C 0306 0323 0307 and there's no code point listed for the combining horizontal line, if I'm interpreting this right it's not actually a single combining Unicode character but more a general "add a stroke" character that can produce d, g, t, l, h, o with an extra stroke.
22:42:42 <fizzie> (That's 0111, 01E5, 0167, 0142, 0127 and 00F8, respectively.)
22:43:38 <Melvar> The ones Neo2 doesn’t have are hook and horn (Vietnamese), and it overloads cedilla and ogonek, because they mostly only go on different letters. The additional ones Neo2 has are: turn, rhotic hook (which may actually serve as Vietnamese horn as well), and greek dasia and psili.
22:45:08 <fizzie> Also the Finnish names for the combining characters are (a) ridiculous and (b) something I've never heard of. (akuutti-korkomerkki, gravis-korkomerkki, sedilji, ogonek, sarvi, yläpuolinen koukku, kaksois-akuutti-korkomerkki, yläpuolinen ympyrä, treema, sirkumfleksi, tilde, pituusmerkki, hattu, lyhyysmerkki, alapuolinen piste, yläpuolinen piste)
22:45:41 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:46:19 <oerjan> sedilji and ogonek are presumably borrowed from french and russian
22:46:46 <Melvar> Polish actually I believe, that’s where the ogonek is used.
22:47:13 <oerjan> oh right it wouldn't make sense for cyrillic
22:47:45 <oerjan> fizzie: does hattu mean "hat"
22:50:30 <Melvar> Looks like it does, and also háček, which is not what one usually means by a hat on a letter in English.
23:00:27 <Melvar> Having looked at them in Wiktionary, all of those names seem not particularly ridiculous.
23:01:36 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:08:47 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
23:11:55 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
23:13:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41022&oldid=41021 * Zzo38 * (+305)
23:22:03 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:26:27 -!- digitalc1ld has changed nick to digitalcold.
23:27:18 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:29:18 -!- Bicyclidine has joined.
23:31:21 -!- NATT_SiM has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41023&oldid=41002 * BCompton * (+473)
23:35:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:My Unreliable Past]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41024&oldid=41023 * BCompton * (+57) /* Transactions */
23:36:52 -!- NATT_SiM has joined.
23:37:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41025&oldid=41024 * Ais523 * (+79) /* Transactions */ good catch
23:37:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41026&oldid=40999 * Ais523 * (+4) /* Semantics */ fix thinko
23:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41027&oldid=41026 * Ais523 * (+56) /* Semantics */ clarify
23:40:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes. Oh, someone already said that.
23:41:49 <fizzie> And I'm sorry but "gravis-korkomerkki" is unarguably ridiculous, no matter how you spin it.
23:44:48 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:45:23 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:46:48 <fizzie> Nobody uses (or even knows) the phonetics-specific meaning of "korko", especially since it has a perfectly normal and well-known word ("paino") already.
23:47:58 <fizzie> (And "gravis" is just a gratuitous loanwordery. And a family of sound cards.)
23:49:22 <Melvar> I don’t think any language hasn’t loaned that in in one form or other …