00:00:24 <elliott> I like how I first joined in 2006 but left seconds later because there were lots of people and it was scary
00:00:27 <elliott> and then came back half a year later
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00:01:34 <oerjan> elliott: at least it hasn't yet been longer since i joined than 1993 is before it
00:01:56 <elliott> when were you actually born
00:02:19 <elliott> when you said 1993 I instantly assumed it was your birth year until I realised that can't be true
00:02:29 <oerjan> i'm older than INTERCAL you young whippersnappers!
00:02:34 -!- tlewkow has joined.
00:02:48 <Taneb> I'm not even older than brainfuck
00:04:01 <elliott> vanila: I don't know what we're agreeing on but yes
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00:04:59 <oerjan> vanila: O KAY SINCE YOU ISNIST
00:05:13 * oerjan gave up typing that correctly
00:05:19 <elliott> gonna backdoor all the RNGs
00:05:52 <oerjan> vanila: it has always been the sysops selecting _from_ the candidates, when we actually got around to it.
00:06:06 <oerjan> (i probably wasn't a sysop when it started)
00:06:36 <AndoDaan> Can someone explain how different languages can use rand to solve the Wow problem?
00:06:41 <Taneb> One of my housemates in the shower, and I am very confused
00:06:46 <FireFly> 1970, isn't that literally the beginning of time?
00:06:49 <Taneb> Who showers just after midnight?
00:07:01 <Taneb> Other than one of my flatmates
00:07:15 <oerjan> AndoDaan: Wow is based on a very common random number generator
00:07:16 <Taneb> I'm in a house, not a flat, I keep forgetting that
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00:07:49 <FireFly> Do you look down on flatlanders?
00:07:50 <oerjan> namely, the one in libc iiuc
00:07:53 <AndoDaan> and most languages have it implemented?
00:08:22 <oerjan> AndoDaan: many languages probably just call out to libc for randomness
00:09:18 <elliott> oerjan: I think I threatened to op you so that you'd have to select a candidate at one point
00:09:25 <elliott> vanila: fizzie oerjan me ais523 are the active ones
00:09:31 <vanila> I nominate elliott to do this then
00:09:42 <elliott> how about I promote you and you do it instead
00:09:59 <Taneb> What are we selecting candidates for?
00:10:04 <vanila> would oerjan like to do it? else I shall bother ais and fiz
00:11:10 <oerjan> vanila: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Administrators most of the people on the first half are rarely around these days.
00:11:35 <vanila> ok, delete them please
00:12:12 <oerjan> Gregor is only an admin because he's hosting the server, he's not really active inside the wiki.
00:12:18 <elliott> vanila: https://i.imgur.com/rn0MuWV.png be afraid
00:12:50 <oerjan> vanila: we cannot delete chris pressey that would be blasphemy hth
00:13:25 <elliott> actually I agree with vanila, we should assassinate the old guard
00:13:45 <vanila> If Cluid is made Admin they will likely put Janus as featured language based on their edit history
00:14:24 <oerjan> Gregor: yes, but i think you only agreed to host the wiki on the promise others would do most of the work right? :P
00:14:42 <Gregor> Except replace "most" with "all"
00:15:17 <oerjan> Gregor: well i assume you might still want to keep the server alive since you use it for other stuff...
00:16:55 <Taneb> What are the responsibilities of esolangs.org admin?
00:17:35 <elliott> Taneb: international espionage, drug smuggling and mail merges
00:18:40 <Gregor> It runs on HP-UX 11, so occasionally you've got to go in to update that too.
00:18:58 <oerjan> AndoDaan: i don't think the fact it uses libc _intrinsically_ means C has to win, since other languages may still give better syntactic sugar for whatever is needed. they just didn't, this time.
00:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41160&oldid=41124 * 70.24.86.251 * (+1556) updated documentation for newer, hopefully last, version of interpreter
00:21:02 <vanila> i want to make 'meta' pages maybe that give overviews of thinsg
00:21:13 <vanila> having just a huge long list of languages is a bit hard to make use of, since the loudest ones win (i.e. bf derivatives)
00:21:43 <elliott> vanila: I like it when people highlight languages they like on their user pages
00:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41161&oldid=41160 * Orenwatson * (+4) corrected example a little.
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00:35:17 <AndoDaan> oerjan, so like,maybe I could have burlesque pick 765 or so random numbers between 32 and 127 and maybe just maybe I wont have to add "%95" and all that chaff.
00:36:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41162&oldid=41161 * Orenwatson * (+0) example was still a little wrong.
00:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41163&oldid=41162 * Orenwatson * (-26)
00:53:07 <oerjan> AndoDaan: well it's a little unlikely the burlesque uses the right RNG since it is written in haskell and the haskell versions need to use the ffi to get the right random numbers...
00:57:49 <vanila> there still isn't a new featured language on the wiki
00:57:58 <elliott> oerjan has been slacking off
00:58:26 <oerjan> wait this wasn't what i agreed to, was it?
00:58:32 <vanila> I thought we all agreed?
00:58:56 <oerjan> yes, but you started before my name was mentioned hth
01:00:31 * oerjan was about to capitalize i for emphasis
01:00:35 <int-e> oerjan: ok, if you're not cheating (whitespace doesn't count) then I'm missing some trick :)
01:01:02 <int-e> oerjan: I had to change the search order slightly to make the wrapping cheat work
01:01:25 <oerjan> i tried two options and neither worked.
01:01:43 <oerjan> (one worked on just the 1st and 3rd test case)
01:02:06 <int-e> I tried two options and one worked? or perhaps ... let me double check
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01:03:51 <oerjan> ...what i changed has nothing to do with the search order.
01:04:30 <oerjan> which makes it really mysterious why one option worked differently than the other. unfortunately i didn't save those attempts.
01:05:16 <oerjan> never mind, if my algorithm is beating you overall...
01:06:06 <int-e> right, time for the cheat.
01:06:20 <int-e> (since I'm finally satisfied with my encoding)
01:07:25 <oerjan> sic transit gloria mundi
01:08:32 <oerjan> fizzie: int-e just beat you hth
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01:29:42 <oerjan> int-e: you were right, changing order helped
01:29:51 <oerjan> once i found the right spot to do it
01:32:01 <oerjan> although the point of a half-cheating solution that doesn't actually win may be considered dubious
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01:38:12 <int-e> that's interesting though; I only have one binary choice for the searching order in total.
01:39:04 <oerjan> as i said, what i thought was changing searching order previously was probably just introducing a bug that caused it to always fail
01:40:23 <elliott> oerjan: do we have a new featured language yet
01:40:46 <oerjan> i don't think you've ever managed to make me write a blurb hth
01:41:22 <oerjan> (this is incidentally the part i think the proposers might do)
01:41:35 <elliott> btw I'm not sure janus would be a great feature since probably its authors don't consider it esoteric :/
01:41:54 <oerjan> wait was janus what we all agreed to
01:42:03 <oerjan> in that case, i retract my agreement
01:43:03 <oerjan> i think this is an appropriate thing to be two-faced about hth
01:43:24 <vanila> it doesn't have to be janus
01:44:25 <oerjan> i don't think Rail is esoteric, or do we have a language called that
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01:44:53 <elliott> hitting random about six times gave me esme
01:45:04 <elliott> it's almost april 2015 and we're really late for april 2014
01:45:11 <oerjan> elliott: i think that's a definite April feature
01:45:14 <AndoDaan> and it is really well documented.
01:45:41 <elliott> the scariest part of the esme article is This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information.
01:46:13 <vanila> I think Janus is esoteric
01:46:49 <elliott> clue is a great language and pretty unusual for an esolang and it has a good article with examples, though unfortunately no implementation that's on the web :/
01:47:11 <elliott> vanila: I think so too but there's a degree to which "esoteric" is a self-applied thing
01:47:42 <elliott> it's definitely like, on-topic for the wiki but singling it out as representative of esolangs could be odd if it wasn't intended that way
01:48:43 <elliott> vanila: have you seen Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck
01:48:45 <elliott> that's the best bf derivative
01:48:58 <Bicyclidine> i don't think it's eeven in any categories
01:49:13 <Bicyclidine> luckily it's pretty easy to find, since "Brainfuckiest" isn't a common term
01:49:20 <elliott> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
01:49:20 <vanila> How to write a good Clue implementation?
01:49:23 <elliott> it's like the easter egg of the wiki
01:49:50 <elliott> vanila: brute force, more or less; the restricted structure of branching/recursion and the fact that you get specified every part that should be used to build it in the bag makes brute forcing pretty easy
01:49:57 <elliott> I think the article describes pretty much the entire algorithm
01:50:44 <elliott> basically it brute forces a program structure from a very simple template given all the parts that aren't the structure and a specification to check against
01:55:44 <oerjan> you know, i don't think i've read that Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck article properly before
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02:22:28 <int-e> there. *now* I'm beating fizzie
02:22:42 <int-e> cheating, of course.
02:22:53 <oerjan> int-e: um i thought you already did
02:23:09 <int-e> check the language list at the bottom
02:33:38 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page cool! Someone updated the Featured Language bit
02:35:03 <elliott> vanila: you're getting very close to a promotion here :P
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02:41:42 <vanila> oerjan, thoughts on Janus
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02:51:38 <Bicyclidine> what's racket's call/cc for delimited continuations thing called again? call/ec?
02:51:58 <vanila> but maybe you dont mean that?
02:52:59 <vanila> http://esolangs.org/wiki/AttoASM
02:53:15 <Bicyclidine> reset and shift might be better actually, thanks
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02:56:42 <MDude> I think the reversible language idea I mentioned earlier would be better described as a language made for a type of WPU.
03:06:04 <MDude> "AttoASM is a language designed for the AttoWPU experimental processing unit, as part of the WPU (Weird Processing Unit) concept. "
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03:29:22 <oerjan> oh the pendulum, i remember reading about that
03:30:07 <Bicyclidine> right, i was confusing delimited continuations with escape continuations.
03:30:37 <Bicyclidine> luckily delimited continuations do not make sense to me. how to implement them, or why you'd use them
03:30:55 <vanila> they're difficult to implement!
03:31:52 <vanila> oerjan, is it acceptable
03:33:21 <oerjan> i've not got to janus yet
03:33:21 <vanila> you mentioned that the authors dont consider it eso
03:33:58 <vanila> i dont mean for the feature thing just being on the wiki at all
03:34:12 <oerjan> i'm not going to accept a language that has just been added to the wiki, even if it's esoteric.
03:34:14 <elliott> janus is definitely on topic for the wiki
03:35:47 <oerjan> litmus test: it should have been long enough on the wiki that i only remember it because it was actually interesting...
03:37:20 <oerjan> so's the pendulum. although what happened to that Honorary Esolang category idea.
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03:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41164&oldid=41156 * Oerjan * (-1) superfluous blank line
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03:51:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41165&oldid=41163 * Oerjan * (+1) another one, and bullets
03:53:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41166&oldid=41165 * Oerjan * (+6) /* External Resources */ um, or maybe like this
04:10:56 <AndoDaan> Thanks, oerjan. Question. If I wwere to set my mind to investigate whether MNNBFSL was TC or not... should I start by trying to implement some basic BF algorithms in MNNBFSL?
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04:16:41 <vanila> maybe you could compile a language like WHILE into it
04:19:28 <oerjan> eek, mixing http and https does nothing good for visited links coloring :(
04:20:10 <vanila> im plying with MNNBFSL
04:20:14 <int-e> Translating Brainfuck itself should work.
04:20:40 <oerjan> vanila: there is no language WHILE on the wiki
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04:21:20 <oerjan> that makes it very unlikely to be small enough to be easily used for this.
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04:22:29 <int-e> Ah, the stacks start out empty, that makes things a bit trickier than I thought.
04:22:43 <oerjan> you basically want the simplest already known-TC language that fits as well as possible
04:22:48 <vanila> [< puts 0 on the data stack
04:23:19 <vanila> at the start of program
04:23:23 <vanila> [< puts 3 on the data stack
04:23:24 <int-e> vanila: That's the easy part. But it means that some special handling is required to extend the tape.
04:23:49 <oerjan> you don't need two-sided infinite for bf
04:23:58 <vanila> i could put any numbers onto the data stack
04:25:05 <int-e> vanila: I didn't say it was an obstacle, it's just a complication.
04:27:12 <vanila> I wonder how to compile recursive functions
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04:28:00 <vanila> calling convention for main loop: [function number][arg1][arg2].. ..stack bottom|
04:28:41 <vanila> at any point in code you can push a value onto the stack using [<--------- or [<++
04:29:12 <oerjan> vanila: you can only easily push values close to the PC value, though.
04:29:25 <vanila> but thendo + or - lots, it will be inefficient but I dont mind
04:29:58 <oerjan> vanila: that will give an at _least_ exponentially growing program
04:30:18 <oerjan> well i'm not saying it won't work, but there has to be a more convenient way
04:30:38 <int-e> and there's actually something funny here ... one cannot use [<++++... to push a later address on the stack. So you need a loop (which is entirely possible) to circumvent that.
04:31:33 <AndoDaan_> as long as the top of the dStack is positive, any value on the top of the rStack sets the ip.
04:32:03 <vanila> a later address on the stack?
04:32:05 <oerjan> [<+[-"] does that work?
04:32:41 <vanila> it would require infintely many +'s
04:33:04 <int-e> oerjan: I mean a pointer into the program.
04:33:26 <oerjan> int-e: i'm still at the earlier question of how to push small values
04:33:29 <int-e> <code for pushing address of a> ... <a comes here>
04:33:54 <int-e> just [< followed by some adjustments.
04:34:20 <oerjan> well +[-"] is meant to zero a non-negative value
04:34:21 <int-e> it may result in some big programs but it'll work in principle :)
04:34:51 <int-e> without having tried, yours looks like it is a position-independent zero, yeah.
04:35:57 <int-e> MNNBFSL PIC. hmm hmm.
04:38:21 <elliott> there's no one-cell way to do 0 -> 1; 1 -> 0; anything else -> irrelevant in BF, is there?
04:38:38 <oerjan> hm you cannot skip code without knowing the address
04:39:22 <oerjan> if you have any loop, you end up with a constant.
04:39:32 <oerjan> if you don't have any loop, you're obviously adding one.
04:39:34 <elliott> so emulating boolfuck with bf is kinda wasteful
04:39:45 <int-e> oerjan: well, perhaps you could have meta-opcodes that check a flag to see whether they should be executed or not.
04:40:06 <int-e> so they all skip ahead by a small, fixed amount
04:40:37 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:40:49 <int-e> but I see no big deal in having to know the (relative) address of the target
04:41:05 <oerjan> i'm assuming this language has bignum cells
04:41:07 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/raw/115070
04:41:54 <int-e> oerjan: the implementation uses size_t for cells.
04:42:05 <AndoDaan_> the spaces increas the counter and you can use ]<. to output the value.
04:42:10 <int-e> not sure what the intention is. it's written in C after all.
04:42:28 <oerjan> int-e: well without the assumption you're not TC at least
04:42:38 <oerjan> since you cannot jump to arbitrary program spots
04:43:02 <int-e> Btw, funny things happen when you drop " ... I expect it remains TC, but it cannot do any interesting text processing.
04:43:05 <oerjan> AndoDaan_: not if the program is longer than maximal cell size
04:43:15 <int-e> oerjan: all you need is implement one universal TM
04:44:28 <vanila> [+>-<] isnt this to add two numbers?
04:44:44 <int-e> vanila: ] destroys the tested value
04:45:03 <vanila> hm i hav einfinte loop :(
04:45:09 <int-e> ... or do we want [->+<"]
04:45:20 <int-e> looping through all of size_t takes some time
04:45:31 <AndoDaan_> [<">++++++++++"[->+++++++++<"]>sets the top value of the dstack to 100
04:45:49 <vanila> i cant pop without writing to stdout??
04:46:18 <int-e> vanila: yes you can. basically, [], but that's not quite the right offset
04:46:57 <vanila> [<+++++[<[->+<"][]. 5+7 :D
04:48:37 <int-e> Actually, hmm. How do I pop the temporary that I needed to pop a value from the stack? Heh.
04:49:55 <int-e> it's just [-"][] isn't it.
04:50:28 <int-e> and you just did that. [] pops a zero.
04:50:47 <vanila> wait doesn't [] leave garbage on the return stack?
04:50:55 <vanila> after popping a zero off
04:51:02 <oerjan> i prefer +[-"] if we assume unbounded cells
04:51:15 <oerjan> because it doesn't infloop on zero
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04:51:22 <int-e> in fact it pops everything up to the first zero on the data stack
04:51:25 <int-e> oerjan: good point
04:51:40 <vanila> omg this langauge is really hard to program in
04:52:15 <int-e> surprising. it looked pretty boring at a glance.
04:55:16 <vanila> i was wondering how to do a switch(function) { case 1: jump f1_code; ... } type thing
04:55:25 <vanila> then I could compile recursive functions to it hopefully
04:55:57 <vanila> the problem int-e mentioned is seriousl though
04:56:10 <vanila> you can't jump over code, so f1_code must be written after this switch
04:56:17 <vanila> that means I cannot use th stupid inefficient number literals trick
04:56:28 <int-e> Set up targets on the return stack, each pointing to a -].
04:57:51 <vanila> i feel like not being able to pop without printing is a problem
04:59:04 <int-e> So there's a viable plan, actually; have a dispatcher at some huge address 4^k, which then jumps back to whatever code fragment is currently being executed.
04:59:10 <int-e> vanila: we can pop without printing
04:59:13 <vanila> I guess you can just past [ by doing <->
05:00:05 <vanila> I think ill need a more efficient way to encode numeric litearls
05:01:01 <int-e> set value to zero, [ pushes something on the return stack, ] pops a zero and something from the return stack, and does nothing.
05:03:08 <vanila> [<+++++[<[->+,"]+[-"][].
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05:03:15 <vanila> ive got an infiniet loop in my new 5+7 program
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05:04:16 <int-e> what's that comma?
05:04:35 <vanila> i wrote it by accident! I deleted it and still loop
05:04:51 <Dulnes> Quick name an estoric language you've never wanted to try
05:05:03 <vanila> thanks! Now it works perfect
05:05:27 <vanila> this language only supports positive numbers?
05:05:45 <FreeFull> Are there any good esoteric languages that do balanced ternary?
05:06:23 <vanila> Dulnes, I don't want to program in Dulnes Lang
05:08:24 <vanila> <AndoDaan_> [<">++++++++++"[->+++++++++<"]>sets the top value of the dstack to 100
05:08:30 <vanila> does it have any other effects?
05:11:47 <vanila> this is what it gives me
05:12:00 <vanila> if i put some spaces before
05:12:21 <vanila> I wonder how to swap the top two stack elements
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05:14:35 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/115077
05:14:39 <vanila> I gues it could be done like this, if i have subtract
05:16:55 <vanila> that was wrong, i added a right way
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05:18:13 <vanila> how do you do that though?
05:19:57 <Dulnes> Well then out of me field
05:20:17 <Dulnes> Slowly withers and dies
05:20:52 <Dulnes> Hhh this is troublesome ;-;
05:21:45 <int-e> vanila: something like [<[-"]<<+[>>+<<-"][]>- perhaps?
05:22:05 <int-e> vanila: for swapping the top two elements of the data stack.
05:22:15 <vanila> that gave me rstack underflow
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05:22:20 <vanila> but maybe im using it wrong
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05:23:09 <Dulnes> i cant put [ example ] and have a [ next to it with a space and it gets all jumbled so [ example ] [ example ] because ] space [ is deleted and it merges the bottom and top lines
05:23:31 <int-e> oh, there's something wrong. [<[-"]<<+[>>>+<<<-"][]>- perhaps.
05:25:11 <int-e> vanila: Perhaps I should just say what the idea is: given a *b, push a zero, a b *0, then add the a to that zero, 0 b *a, finally pop that 0. I'm not certain that I got the directions right.
05:25:37 <int-e> fungot: have you met Dulnes?
05:25:38 <fungot> int-e: so, hey, it was our table! if he's interested! correspondingly, zombies! my day is ruined, you guys.". ahem. one day a big crime is committed and the only guy i've ever felt that long, doctor professor jim junior, and that someone could've been me
05:26:28 <Dulnes> And also charactors such as [] + - , < arent accepted as a space i should just start over
05:26:43 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/115080 i got swapping this way
05:27:13 <vanila> int-e, your way seems much better!
05:27:17 <vanila> using 3 things is much faster
05:30:25 <vanila> https://github.com/yshl/MNNBFSL/blob/master/example/fizzbuzz.bfsl
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05:30:42 <vanila> ">[<[-"]<[->+"---[<"[-"]++++[>++++++++<-"][]>]--- <"][]
05:31:01 <mitchs> int-e's idea works with very small change: [<+[< s [<[-"]>>[<<<+>>>-"][]<< s
05:32:17 <vanila> i get that when running it
05:32:30 <Dulnes> [ 12 » 2 » ]+[ integer => 24 ]++[ method]]-[1] none of the + - are working and it just adds [ 12 » 2 ]+[ integer => 14 ]++[ method]]-[0]
05:32:42 <vanila> ther seems a problem with the code
05:32:54 <mitchs> it is 1 3 and then becomes 3 1
05:32:55 * Dulnes is very much done with math
05:33:30 <int-e> mitchs: so I did get the directions wrong. thanks!
05:33:46 <vanila> ok but i cannot run your code correctly?
05:34:02 <vanila> I have to delete [<+[<
05:34:19 <vanila> ok works perfect now :D
05:35:49 <Dulnes> Well then im dumb it was the ++ comments they deleted the method 1 but idk why
05:36:22 <int-e> Sorry, does anybody know what Dulnes is talking about?
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05:36:43 <elliott> is this your first time talking to Dulnes
05:36:48 <Dulnes> I like to talk to myself ;-;
05:37:01 <int-e> elliott: I'm not talking *to* Dulnes, I'm talking *about* Dulnes.
05:37:37 <int-e> elliott: but I think you've answered my question. Thanks.
05:38:00 <Dulnes> I should just make my own language
05:38:29 <int-e> Dulnes: I'd say you're doing just fine with your version of english.
05:38:49 <elliott> Dulnes: do you have any evidence that this weird language you keep quoting code snippets with unbalanced brackets from actually exists
05:39:19 <int-e> Hmm. I'm grumpy, bbl.
05:39:28 <Dulnes> Well i created it so not really i found i dont need balanced brackets
05:39:57 <Dulnes> I should just go back to normal coding :\
05:40:29 <vanila> does this push 0 onto the data stack?
05:43:39 <Dulnes> Elliot is very snippy today he usually never talks to me
05:45:06 <vanila> [<[-"] only works if it isn't at position 0
05:45:07 <mitchs> vanila, yshl is keeping the remainder underneath i and repeatedly incrementing it and comparing with 3
05:45:30 <mitchs> well, a copy of i, which he decrements as he increments the remainder
05:48:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe I'll have to cheat too.
05:49:10 <elliott> Dulnes: btw if you want to ping me it's "elliott"
05:49:14 <mitchs> vanila, it takes effort, but you can read the code piece by piece
05:49:55 <elliott> mitchs: hmm, I know your name from anagol, right?
05:49:57 <mitchs> at line 8, variable i is initially at the top of the data stack
05:50:18 <Dulnes> Ive never noticed that other t :0
05:50:26 <mitchs> hi elliott, yeah that's me :)
05:50:29 <vanila> i wonder how much of my code breaks when values are 0
05:51:22 <elliott> mitchs: coming to spy on all the new golfers' techs
05:51:32 <mitchs> the first two characters (">) duplicates i and puts it on the return stack
05:53:08 <mitchs> well i would look at the live code log from time to time but figured i had something to contribute so joined
05:57:05 <elliott> kind of surprised/unnerved anyone actually uses stalker mode :p
06:00:47 <mitchs> i didn't feel worthy to join for lack of haskell and burlesque knowledge ;)
06:02:24 <oerjan> vanila> [<[-"] only works if it isn't at position 0 <-- well then use [< there hth
06:02:56 <vanila> im writing product now
06:02:59 <vanila> so i can do small products
06:03:15 <fizzie> oerjan: My cheating version timed out on the first submission on test 3, and the performance checker gave it 0.989 and something. Living on the edge here.
06:06:16 <vanila> >>push 0<<[>'[>>+<<-]<-]
06:06:54 <oerjan> fizzie: his dc version still beats you, though >:)
06:07:37 <vanila> does anyone have a way to decompose a number into the form a*b+c with a,b,c smallest?
06:08:02 <fizzie> oerjan: I noticed. I don't have any idea how it's done -- probably something really clever.
06:08:20 <oerjan> vanila: you want a and b to be close to the square root
06:08:21 <mitchs> what do you mean by "a,b,c smallest"
06:08:32 <vanila> well i dont mean anything especially rigorous
06:08:39 <oerjan> although that's probably not an exact rule
06:08:52 <vanila> just make them small so I can emit code of the form push a push b * push c +
06:09:01 <vanila> to encode numerals more efficiently
06:09:21 <oerjan> vanila: have you looked at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
06:09:31 <oerjan> it may be slightly relevant
06:09:45 <oerjan> (the non-wrapping ones)
06:09:49 <vanila> thats the sort of thing i have in mind, im writing a program to do it
06:10:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Even allowing for dc's one-byte commands, I wouldn't be surprised if his dc solution was translatable to something much shorter than I have in Burlesque. :/
06:10:29 <mitchs> you probably are more interested in multiplying by a constant rather than pushing a constant and treating it as a variable
06:10:44 <vanila> multiply by immediate is really important
06:11:37 <oerjan> vanila: you basically only need multiplication by 2 to do binary encoding
06:11:55 <vanila> oh that is excellent I can use binary
06:12:51 <oerjan> that might not always be most compact though
06:12:54 <mitchs> fungot, predict the future of the universe please
06:12:54 <fungot> mitchs: it's so good, dromiceiomimus. do i seem to see them, but they all suspect he's sad. they say " are you alright
06:13:04 <vanila> still its efficient enough for me)
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06:13:45 <mitchs> hmm optimism with a touch of sadness
06:14:26 <oerjan> vanila: the nice thing about calculating all jumps as global addresses is that you then have the return stack free to use for the other half of a tape
06:14:48 <int-e> fungot: well done. that surely brightened my mood :)
06:14:48 <fungot> int-e: so people can bet in-game money to win real-life money?' then tony and louisa q were two people in love! romantic love, but there's a rude jerk, and then they both said the next few days were going to me, the omniscient. the dude has to sleep! superman could laser him from orbit while he's having nappy times! enter only if you have a valid passport to dreamland!"
06:14:49 <vanila> I need to use hard coded addersses
06:15:05 <oerjan> vanila: you might want to code an assembler for this :P
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06:17:55 <int-e> oerjan: would it be hard to make a minsky machine? with counter operations it's usually easy to undo the effect of a loop, so skipping ahead may not be necessary
06:18:29 <int-e> and you only need a finite amount of stack, assuming unbounded cells.
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06:20:24 <oerjan> int-e: i dunno, but it seems to me that vanila has got the essential ingredients for brainfuck now
06:20:33 <vanila> its annoyingly hard to do binary
06:20:49 <vanila> numbers like 1011 are ok but ones like 10100000 are annoying
06:21:15 <oerjan> vanila: you mean converting in your head?
06:21:58 <oerjan> vanila: 0 just means you skip an increment
06:22:27 <oerjan> (or before/after, at the end)
06:23:06 <oerjan> > ((0+1)*2*2+1)*2*2*2*2*2
06:24:03 <vanila> my binary ocnverter is broken
06:26:32 <oerjan> vanila: you can do it backwards with recursion. binary(x) = if x == 0 then make a zero else if x is odd then binary(x-1) ++ increment else binary(x/2) ++ double
06:27:11 <oerjan> i think i mixed haskell and pseudocode in maximally confusing way there, hope it's clear
06:27:27 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/115085
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06:29:50 <oerjan> one minor problem here is that the length of a number representation isn't constant, so you _might_ get complication calculating addresses that depend on each other's representation length...
06:30:07 <oerjan> this can be fixed with padding at worst
06:30:08 <vanila> but thankfully i can pad
06:30:22 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/115087
06:30:24 <vanila> this is what i have so far
06:30:46 <int-e> fizzie: holy cow, what are you spending all this time on!
06:31:19 <int-e> (Well, half-rhetorical question. I can imagine at least one possibility, actually.)
06:33:38 <oerjan> you only need to pad forward references, fwiw
06:34:55 <mitchs> hmm, i wonder if a straightforward-ish translation of daniel b cristofani's dbfi into mnnbfsl would be possible
06:35:08 <vanila> (goto address) => (push-binary address) (emit #\])
06:35:21 <vanila> and then the assembler will work out addresses for all labels
06:35:31 <vanila> and insert gotos with padding
06:35:39 <mitchs> possibly you could keep track of the end of the simulated data array with a marker and expand as necessary
06:40:06 <vanila> i need conditionals I guess
06:40:49 <vanila> if i have goto, conditionals, then maybe using the two stacks I can simulate a fixed number of integer variables and a stack
06:41:13 <vanila> but maybe i should just look for a turing complete stack language to encode
06:41:13 <oerjan> vanila: no, you can simulate an entire brainfuck tape
06:41:19 <vanila> like some kind of minimal forthy thing
06:41:25 <oerjan> two stacks gives a tape
06:41:34 <vanila> id like to use something else than brainfuck
06:41:53 <oerjan> well then you can consider int-e's minsky machine idea
06:42:31 <oerjan> that requires cell values to be really huge, though.
06:42:44 <oerjan> (compared to program size)
06:43:08 <vanila> i should maybe compile recursive functions including mu minimzer
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06:45:09 <oerjan> i guess a minimal forthy thing will work, that also needs both stacks in full
06:46:21 <oerjan> unless you use unbounded integers, but then you're back to recursive functions
06:47:24 <vanila> i can define a table of words by name and they can call each other
06:47:30 <vanila> adn they can manipulate stack
06:48:02 <oerjan> anyway, what you've got + conditionals should give you all you need to construct a lot of possibilities
06:48:23 <mitchs> Dulnes, i'm operating under the idea that Hhh is not an actual word
06:48:27 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: then you're back to the minsky machine
06:48:34 <oerjan> or recursive functions
06:48:45 <Dulnes> That is the sound im making atm
06:49:03 <vanila> im making a new stacky language
06:49:05 <Bicyclidine> i never did figure out how that shitty register machine was turing complete
06:49:14 <Dulnes> Ofc hhh isnt a word wth did you think it was
06:49:23 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: via godel encoding, really
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06:49:45 <vanila> IF (else then predicate - result)
06:50:01 <Dulnes> mitchs: no need to be rude
06:50:02 <vanila> if predicate is 0 result=then, otherwise result=else
06:50:11 <vanila> and things like +, *, dup, swap
06:50:14 <mitchs> i thought i was joking
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06:50:40 <Dulnes> :T alas i cannot understand jokes
06:50:50 <Bicyclidine> oerjan: yeah i was just having trouble understanding how to use godel encoding with the paucity of instructions. i don't doubt it's possible, but still
06:50:58 <oerjan> vanila: if you make a new stack language then you have to prove _that_ TC as well :P
06:51:21 <Dulnes> Thanks for making it seem you want me gone
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06:53:44 <oerjan> Bicyclidine: basically you use godel encoding to encode an n-register machine with a 2-register one
06:54:26 <oerjan> for this to work, you need to be able to divide a number by a prime and check the modulus
06:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AnneFrank * New user account
06:54:42 <oerjan> which you can do with iterated decrement
06:55:39 <oerjan> then, once you have n-register machines, you use 2 cells with base k encoding to give you a tape of cells with k possible values
06:56:06 <vanila> i wonder if ` s k execution would be easiest
06:56:21 <oerjan> (each cell gives you a stack)
06:56:51 <oerjan> oh and a temporary register to help multiply/divide by k
06:57:10 <vanila> the assemblr is a bit tricky
06:57:30 <oerjan> vanila: i'm pretty sure a turing machine thingy is simplest here
06:57:39 <vanila> if i have code like this x (goto Label3) y Label1: z w Label2: e h y Label3:
06:57:43 <oerjan> or minsky machine, if you have unbounded cells
06:57:58 <vanila> i do not really know how large the goto code will be until I know where Label3 is
06:58:13 <vanila> i can try to allocate enough space for it and pad
06:58:17 <oerjan> vanila: that's why you need the padding?
06:58:30 <vanila> but still, i do not know for sure what amount of padding to do
06:58:35 <vanila> it might have to retry with more
06:59:14 <vanila> it would be nice to get it right on first try
06:59:15 <oerjan> vanila: you can use algebra and keep the padding a variable until you know how big the entire program expands to
07:00:13 <oerjan> calculate addresses as a + p * b, where p is the unknown padding
07:00:28 <oerjan> this should allow you to calculate this in two passes
07:01:02 <oerjan> depends on program code
07:01:35 <oerjan> increment a every time you insert a normal command, increment b every time you insert a padded value
07:02:20 <oerjan> mind you, you can _probably_ overestimate p if you know the maximal length of the expanded program.
07:02:29 <vanila> ill try to implement it tommorow
07:02:30 <int-e> are you generating position-independent code?
07:03:00 <oerjan> that would require using relative addresses. still possible, but a bit more complicated.
07:03:11 <int-e> if you would, you could work inside-out when translating code.
07:03:25 <int-e> ah, there's a downside to everything
07:03:30 <oerjan> you'd have to add a calculated offset to the current program counter
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07:21:12 <Taneb> I think my sleep schedule is back into something sensible
07:21:20 <Taneb> I've woken up before 2 PM
07:21:22 <fizzie> int-e: I don't know what I'm spending the time on, it just turned out that way.
07:22:16 <oerjan> Taneb: 's ok i can balance you out
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07:43:02 <mroman> {{1 1} {1 2} {1 3} {1 4} {1 5} {2 2} {2 3} {2 4} {2 5} {3 3} {3 4} {3 5} {4 4} {4 5} {5 5}}
07:49:02 <oerjan> a @fizzie command might be useful
07:52:13 <mroman> Is there no String -> JSONStuff?
07:52:32 <mroman> I don't want stuff like readJSON :: String -> Result a
07:54:07 <fizzie> mroman: What do you want, then?
07:55:27 <scoofy> how much memory is good for an esoteric language?
07:55:36 <scoofy> should 64k be enough? or is 2GB limit better?
07:56:59 <int-e> scoofy: 59049 bytes are enough to be interesting
07:57:04 <zzo38> scoofy: Well, you don't necessarily have to have a hard limit (although some implementations might)
07:57:15 <scoofy> sure. i'm just wondering what advantages that might bring.
07:57:33 <int-e> Bicyclidine: that's not a nice power.
07:57:43 <lifthrasiir> int-e: I'd like to have 343 memory cells instead
07:57:46 <scoofy> using some wraparound modulo arithmetic
07:57:50 <int-e> Bicyclidine: I did not make up that number, hth.
07:58:10 <lifthrasiir> honestly, any size of p^n with a prime p ought to be enough
07:58:10 <oerjan> mroman: JSonStuff is known as Value, it is an instance of the conversion classes
07:58:19 <scoofy> for example, if all cells are 16 bit, and all memory addresses are 16 bit, then the two can be mapped.
07:58:36 <lifthrasiir> (and an integral p and n to be extra sure)
07:59:20 <int-e> Bicyclidine: in fact, the number comes from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
07:59:55 <int-e> lifthrasiir: 7^3, now that could be fun.
08:00:38 <int-e> lifthrasiir: sorry, took me a moment to realize that you did not typo 243 = 3^5 there.
08:01:20 <int-e> are there any other prime power that are exactly 100 apart?
08:02:32 <lifthrasiir> maybe Pell's equation? have to look at it.
08:03:01 <int-e> b_jonas: Right, I guess I wanted the exponent to be different from 1.
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08:04:02 <mitchs> here's a big list of prime powers if you just want to work on the numbers http://oeis.org/A025475/b025475.txt
08:04:03 <int-e> and that's an exclamation mark, not a factorial.
08:04:14 <mitchs> (with exponent 0 or >= 2)
08:05:26 <fizzie> int-e: Do you want to reveal whether your 64B dc just encodes the outputs instead of actually doing the work?
08:06:25 <b_jonas> but probably no other case
08:06:34 <Sgeo> "D is open source"
08:06:50 <Sgeo> "Worried about redistribution? Don't be: Just ask Walter. He may be under obligation to require his permission, but it's only a technicality. Ask him, and he'll grant permission. He hasn't been known not to. "
08:06:56 <Sgeo> I don't think that's sufficient for Debian
08:07:13 <Sgeo> (Although there are other compilers that are actually OSS)
08:07:28 <int-e> fizzie: I already said that it's cheating.
08:08:01 <int-e> fizzie: though I guess that was directed at oerjan.
08:08:05 <lifthrasiir> afaik DFSG requires that the non-interactive agent can get the license ("lonely island experiment" I think?)
08:08:17 <Taneb> I need to get into the habit of putting on a wash more often
08:08:24 <Taneb> I'll probably have to do three loads today
08:08:29 <fizzie> int-e: Well, you know... there's cheating, and then there's cheating. The Burlesque I tagged as "cheat" just cheats by a little bit, in that it'd fail for some subset of puzzles.
08:08:41 <fizzie> int-e: But good to know.
08:08:50 <int-e> fizzie: same here, but the subset is a tad smaller ;-)
08:09:17 <mitchs> i checked that (25,125) and (243,343) are the only such pairs in that file
08:09:29 <int-e> fizzie: err larger, since you spoke about the set where it would fail
08:09:46 <Sgeo> lifthrasiir: I se ereferences to it but not the test itself
08:09:50 <fizzie> Granted, I tried to make a trivial base-30-encoded-outputs in Burlesque, and ended up with 134B due to overhead.
08:10:04 <b_jonas> it's not so hard, the prime powers are 4 8 9 25 27 32 49 121 125 128 169 243 289 343 361 529 841 961 1331 1369 1681 1849 2048 2187 2197 2209 2809 3125 3481 3721 4489 4913 5041 5329 6241 6859 6889 7921 ...
08:10:21 <Sgeo> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.curiosa/4526
08:15:12 <lambdabot> LOWI 260750Z 08005KT 9999 FEW006 BKN009 06/05 Q1016 NOSIG
08:15:31 <Taneb> I don't know the code of my nearest airport :(
08:15:40 <Taneb> I don't even know what my nearest airport is!
08:16:46 <int-e> . o O ( google: airport nearby )
08:17:42 <int-e> well at least it turns up a couple of sites that promise to find airports
08:18:01 <Sgeo> Ate so many twizzlers
08:19:58 <oerjan> "The nearest major airport is Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBA / EGNM). This airport has international and domestic flights from Leeds, United Kingdom and is 33 miles from the center of York, United Kingdom."
08:20:02 <int-e> Sgeo: I'm imagining this is a serious request and trying to figure out what kind of help we could provide.
08:20:05 <lambdabot> EGNM 260750Z 05005KT 020V090 3000 -RADZ BR FEW002 SCT011 BKN035 05/05 Q1014
08:20:27 <Taneb> I generally use http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/ now
08:20:40 <int-e> Some goatse link, perhaps.
08:20:43 <Taneb> It's only a mile away from my house
08:20:48 <lambdabot> ENVA 260750Z 10005KT CAVOK M00/M00 Q1026 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT
08:22:53 <oerjan> help there is no temperature here
08:22:58 <Sgeo> Reassuring me that either it's not possible to puke in sleep or that I would wake up shortly first would help
08:23:06 <oerjan> or perhaps it's just cowing out
08:23:40 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure that is a phrase
08:24:34 <Sgeo> Apparently it can happen. I'm scared now :<
08:24:58 <oerjan> Sgeo: you could try puking before going to bed hth
08:25:17 <Sgeo> Can too much sugar even cause this?
08:25:51 <Taneb> Sgeo, try going for a bit of a walk to settle your stomach?
08:30:22 <Sgeo> oerjan: ty, just did what you suggested
08:30:25 <Sgeo> (not voluntarily)
08:36:20 <Sgeo> On the plus side, I feel much better now
08:36:29 <Sgeo> Almost scary that it was red, but not really
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08:46:44 <Taneb> Sgeo, hope you are OK :(
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09:05:27 <Sgeo> Freezing cold and not sure why,, other than thstt I'm fine
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09:36:40 <vanila> I added labels and push label-address operations to that MMBF
09:37:24 <vanila> stack + goto means we can do procedure calls and recursion
09:38:11 <Sgeo> Still feeling a bit nausous. Not as much though
09:38:29 <mitchs> you're working with a modified version of the language, or you found ways to implement things in the language ?
09:38:42 <vanila> i wrote an assembler which compiles these features into the original language
09:38:48 <vanila> so this would be useful for proving TCness
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09:47:08 <vanila> we know how to permute the top of the stack
09:47:22 <vanila> and can compute things like +, * etc..
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10:01:01 <lambdabot> EFHK 260950Z 19008KT 1700 -DZ BR SCT001 BKN002 04/04 Q1025 NOSIG
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10:11:10 <vanila> would you like to change the featured language on wiki front page?
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10:38:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure. I don't generally "do things". Would it be into something listed at [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] and with a good article about it in addition to being otherwise interesting?
10:39:20 <vanila> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Current
10:39:27 <vanila> I guess its this page which gets edited
10:40:00 <vanila> Eodermdrome, Funciton and Rail were suggested, I don't think it matters which is picked any should be fine
10:40:08 <vanila> (any of the candidates, not nec. one of those 3)
10:44:14 <fizzie> Oh. I would need to write a blurb. I don't think I can do that right now, but I might attempt it in the evening, if I remember.
10:45:32 <vanila> you could just copy the start of the article
10:45:35 <vanila> so you don't have to write it yourself
10:45:39 <vanila> but you can if you like
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11:13:07 <int-e> Wow, henkma. Right, if f terminates the program then we can schedule as many calls of it in a row as we like... phew.
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11:14:26 <vanila> int-e, were you interseted in the stack brainfuck?
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11:16:43 <int-e> variable: MNNBFSL? Yes.
11:19:10 <vanila> I wrote an 'assembler' which adds labels and a command to p ush the addres of a label (computed in binary) to the stack
11:19:39 <vanila> so this gives you ability to e.g. perform recursive functions like how assembly does it
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11:36:08 <int-e> Nice. (Sorry, I am interested but I don't really have the time to look at stuff in any detail.)
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12:06:57 <mroman> 09:09 < fizzie> Granted, I tried to make a trivial base-30-encoded-outputs in Burlesque, and ended up with 134B due to overhead.
12:07:28 <mroman> fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values
12:07:59 <mroman> I'd rather want case read of JSInt i -> ... JSString s -> ..
12:08:31 <mroman> since I don't know the type ahead using :: is not for me
12:09:19 <AndoDaan> I finished the burlesque interpreter for MNNBFSL.
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12:09:44 <AndoDaan> Seems so trivial in hindsight.
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12:10:48 <AndoDaan> No. I think it was a friend of hinichiro.
12:12:06 <AndoDaan> I just got interested in it because it was new on anagol.
12:13:11 <AndoDaan> I skimmed the logs, vanila. Do you feel closer to thinking MNNBFSL is TC?
12:13:31 <vanila> well I think someone smart might prove it TC in a much easier way
12:14:07 <fizzie> mroman: Isn't that just runGetJSON (fmap burlesqize readJSValue) inputString where burlesqize (JSInt i) = x; burlesqize (JSString s) = y; ...?
12:14:13 <vanila> but to me this confirms that it is TC for sure
12:14:31 <vanila> it doesnt count as a proof but the construction is mostly, you'd have to do conditional branching
12:16:08 <fizzie> Maybe that's overly low-level, I don't know how the package is constructed.
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12:58:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41167&oldid=41166 * Orenwatson * (+219) Added explanation of name
13:09:44 <FireFly> <AndoDaan> I just got interested in it because it was new on anagol. ← perhaps anagol could use an "interpret burlesque" task
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13:10:33 <AndoDaan> it would have to be a subset of burlesque's commands.
13:11:44 <vanila> are there any golf problems which were solved by writing an interpreteR?
13:13:57 <int-e> vanila: Perl's s///gee stuff can sometimes be viewed as implementing ad-hoc DSLs.
13:14:27 <AndoDaan> "minimal scheme interpreter" & "minimal postscript interpreter" too.
13:14:58 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: those don't really work on anagolf, because you can't easily give inputs that can really only be solved by writing a general interpreter
13:15:37 <b_jonas> in fact, on any golf server it would be very hard to write good tests for it that cover everything
13:15:53 <int-e> vanila: so that's a question. if somebody does some stuff on a string to produce a bunch of code that is then evaluated, have they written a compressor for code or an interpreter for a weird language?
13:16:29 <vanila> I think there is a close relation between decompression and intepreters ! :)
13:17:06 <int-e> Oh, we're dangerously close to rediscovering Kolmogorov complexity.
13:17:43 <b_jonas> Make 24 is now post-mortem, let me see what people submitted
13:18:08 <AndoDaan> yeah... that was a fail of a question.
13:18:36 <vanila> i wonder what to do now
13:18:43 <b_jonas> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Make+24
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13:21:21 <vanila> i could make al anguage out of nand gates
13:21:48 <vanila> you write CPU like this: (NAND X (NAND ... .. (NAND ... )))))
13:22:28 <vanila> its not TC since you can only address finite memory but you can do real programming with it
13:24:26 <AndoDaan> you wouldn't even need to be able too loop right? as long as you copy and branche any sequence of instruction of a wanted loop.
13:24:50 <AndoDaan> (sorry, my terms are terrible).
13:25:25 <vanila> well it would be run in a loop
13:26:20 <vanila> so you could design your own instruction set and program it, or make a special purpose cpu
13:27:23 <AndoDaan> aren't all average computers{cpu s} basically nand logic gates and memory?
13:28:13 <vanila> so it's very bad to program in
13:28:21 <vanila> immense code duplication
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13:31:44 <AndoDaan> (I say "saw it" but my grasps of these concepts are nowhere near concrete)
13:31:54 <vanila> im just bored i dont know what to do now
13:33:00 <AndoDaan> in the discussion i was surprised that it's possible TC ness wasn't dismissed outright.
13:36:57 <AndoDaan> I can't even begin to see how one would try and implement any usefull and understandable instructions in it.
13:37:38 <AndoDaan> it feels like a <2 dimensional CA.
13:37:46 <int-e> AndoDaan: the same could be said about Conway's game of life.
13:41:04 <AndoDaan> I mean, I can grasp using standard stable pattern to build standard stable processes, but how anybody worked out to use floaters{?} and the guns to interact like logic gates... Amamzing
13:41:36 <int-e> gliders and spaceships
13:42:25 <int-e> people systematically tried all possible ways of up to three gliders to interact, and less systematically beyond.
13:42:26 <vanila> have you seen glider gun?
13:42:40 <int-e> Have you seen rakes?
13:43:22 <vanila> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Conways_game_of_life_breeder.png
13:43:35 <vanila> oh it makes glider guns
13:43:47 <int-e> "A rake is a puffer whose debris consists of spaceships."
13:44:16 <vanila> id like to play with Golly
13:44:17 <AndoDaan> yeah, I think I watched a tc machine in gol vid not too long ago.
13:45:13 <int-e> or space fillers (though those are of little interest for TC of GoL) http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Max
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13:45:41 <vanila> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8
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13:53:06 <J_Arcane> John Conway talks about the Game of Life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8kUJL04ELA
14:01:34 <AndoDaan> I always thought the live\die interpretation of the rules weird.
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14:06:29 <AndoDaan> I'm much more comfortable with having every possible neighbours states defined.
14:07:13 <AndoDaan> I guess I'm more use too 1d ca s, where that's easier to visualise.
14:11:15 <AndoDaan> Time for some sleep I think. See you guys later.
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16:57:01 <int-e> fizzie: hah, "supercheat"
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17:05:40 <int-e> cheat? well, of course.
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17:32:07 <fizzie> int-e: Admittedly it's not very "super" lengthwise.
17:39:25 <fizzie> (It's the kind of thing with one character for each pair of numbers, so technically 45B of payload, but the formatting code is quite long. Selecting the right string I got done rather compactly, at least.)
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17:44:02 <fizzie> I could cut off 9B if I could embed arbitrary octets in a string.
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20:32:12 <fizzie> Now it's 27B of data out of 82B, so the ratio's gotten even worse.
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22:10:06 <HackEgo> danddreclist 59: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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22:18:28 <Taneb> Perl is a scary language and I do not like it
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22:28:13 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you prefer AWK?
22:28:26 <Taneb> zzo38, I have not used AWK
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22:35:04 <Taneb> What is a good language for demonstrating call-by-reference?
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22:40:13 <oerjan> oh mccarthy function is over
22:40:54 <Sgeo> It almost seems like Rust has more of an opinion on mutabiltiy than Haskell. Haskell is theoretically everything is immutable, but ultimately, you need to use the IO monad, where anything goes. In Rust, it's not anything goes even though it's implicitly in the IO monad like most languages
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23:01:34 <zzo38> Well, in Haskell in the IO monad there are even a few things which are mathematically improper. In my opinion should be avoided as much as possible, although in some cases it is good to keep them for example ability to execute pointer operations which might or might not affect the rest of the program in proper and improper ways.
23:07:57 <AndoDaan> b_jonas, I was thinking. a anagol problem asking to implement a language, if you not only ask for the impleted language output, but also for complete code state each for each step, that would come close to forcing a 'true' implementation, right?
23:08:51 <zzo38> AndoDaan: I think it might come closer than otherwise, but still it can involve a cheat possibly; there is also the possibility that the specification of a language might not specify exactly how some of the internal state might be.
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23:11:03 <AndoDaan> hmm. output of an uncertain state could just be the list of all possible symbols that state could be.
23:11:27 <AndoDaan> it probably wouldn't narrow much down for some bit, I guess.
23:14:09 <AndoDaan> but making sure the to be implemented language is has a clear and easy to read system state would help that issua.
23:14:25 <zzo38> Yes that is one way, if it is such a language.
23:15:06 <AndoDaan> I'm only thinking about possible low level languages for implementation, like string replacement or cell based.
23:21:12 <AndoDaan> then again, maybe I'm creating too many big codegolf problems. But it's hard to come up with a basic algorith that hasn't been asked already.
23:31:44 <zzo38> I invented two more pokemon cards
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23:36:24 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> Wow, henkma. Right, if f terminates the program then we can schedule as many calls of it in a row as we like... phew. <-- fiendish
23:39:52 <oerjan> <mroman> fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values <-- i told you, use the Value type for that.
23:40:08 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> fizzie: I want something that allows me to map JSON values to Burlesque values <-- i told you, use the Value type for that.
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23:41:37 <shachaf> `` ln -s dontaskdonttelllist bin/don\'taskdon\'ttelllist
23:42:09 <shachaf> does mercurial handle hard links?
23:42:35 <oerjan> i'm not sure it handles symbolic ones
23:44:09 <fizzie> You can go directly to http://www2.codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi if you want the fshg browser.
23:44:52 <shachaf> is a pro tip given to a pro or given by a pro?
23:45:00 <shachaf> or does one become a pro by virtue of receiving it?
23:45:15 <fizzie> I don't think the giver or givee really factor in -- it's just that the content is on a "pro level".
23:46:09 <Jafet> Is a pro tip more reliable than a con tip?
23:46:44 <AndoDaan> The teacher can be a fool, as long as the student is wise
23:52:43 <fizzie> If a thing has an attribute that was formerly negative but due to changed circumstances is so no longer, is that an "ex-con"?
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23:54:56 <AndoDaan> Depends on if the tipper knows if it's an ex-con or not. If s/he knows its an ex-con but tips it unchanged it was actually a protected ex-con.
23:56:26 <AndoDaan> add a little non-verbal signalling and it's mankind's favourite pasttime.
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