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02:05:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And then]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41168 * Lucasieks * (+466) Created page with "This language is like BF, but you need to put " and then" between commands. It works like this: We have our sweet little cute program in BF. +> We add the andthens. + and th..."
02:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And then]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41169&oldid=41168 * Lucasieks * (+8)
02:06:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And then]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41170&oldid=41169 * Lucasieks * (+2)
02:07:56 <elliott> ok this has to be a troll.
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02:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41171&oldid=40755 * Lucasieks * (+47)
02:08:41 <Bicyclidine> "define start as this big thing past the colon"
02:08:44 <oerjan> lucasieks has been around
02:09:18 <elliott> maybe I'll be forced to if oerjan doesn't feature something else soon
02:09:47 <oerjan> i think fizzie agreed to maybe write a blurb
02:10:27 <elliott> tempting to just preemptively block whoever thought AnneFrank would be a good username
02:10:38 <oerjan> i was wondering about that one too
02:11:26 <oerjan> but i kept silent lest i become tempted to make really awful puns
02:13:48 <oerjan> i expected elliott to snark now, but i guess he's too scared of the possible puns
02:14:13 <elliott> dude, if I was scared of your puns I'd have left long ago
02:14:27 <oerjan> well you will nazi _these_ coming
02:15:45 <madbr> hmm... how2design branch predictor
02:16:13 <oerjan> just use organically grown branches
02:17:14 <madbr> architectural target: in order, short mips-like pipeline (5 stages or so), instruction words are 64 bit and are split into 3 instructions of ~20 bits each (load/alu unit, store/alu unit, branch/alu unit)
02:17:26 <madbr> essentially a very small vliw
02:17:39 <oerjan> very small very large, check
02:19:05 <madbr> more or less a 3 way superscalar MIPS except the instruction pairings are baked beforehand
02:20:30 <madbr> not that you guys would care since you guys only care about networking, encryption, haskell and linux
02:21:52 <oerjan> i only care about haskell and puns hth
02:23:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41172&oldid=40670 * Lucasieks * (+52)
02:23:38 <madbr> my target is something that renders gfx and mixes sound
02:24:39 <madbr> so it needs a hardware multiplier and some way of drawing textures without wasting a gazillion cycles on cobbling addresses together
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02:25:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41173&oldid=41172 * Oerjan * (-52) Undo revision 41172 by [[Special:Contributions/Lucasieks|Lucasieks]] ([[User talk:Lucasieks|talk]]) (I see nothing wrong with it)
02:25:46 <elliott> I'm interested in CPU architectures, it's just anything I say to you would roll right off anyway
02:25:49 <elliott> not that I have any expertise at all
02:26:07 <madbr> what do you mean it would roll off?
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02:28:55 <zzo38> If I wanted specifically using Haskell involved CPU design, I would prefer to add some stuff so that it is design for Haskell usage; I think something like this has already been done actually.
02:29:34 <madbr> elliott : are you telling me that my current design is unsound? :D
02:29:45 <madbr> or just goes way overboard
02:30:11 <elliott> I'm not adequately qualified to assess your design
02:30:58 <madbr> I'm getting into the calculation latency etc stuff and only professionals really deal with that :/
02:33:54 <madbr> also it's hard to tell if a design is balanced and will work, or if it's crippled and will never be fast
02:34:50 <zzo38> I suppose you can estimate it, but you might not be precise in making an estimation of such.
02:34:51 <Bicyclidine> make 10000 prototype chips with small schematic changes, have them drive robots, select the survivors
02:34:54 <madbr> even intel has failed multiple times at that (iAPX 432, i860)
02:36:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41174&oldid=41173 * Lucasieks * (+26)
02:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41175&oldid=41174 * Ehird * (-26) if you'd prefer to be unable to edit this page, I'd be happy to block you
02:40:04 <madbr> for my application (video games), the small, really classic RISC designs have worked well (mips, arm, superH...)
02:40:26 <zzo38> It even depend what game though
02:40:55 <Bicyclidine> i wonder how well 3d games do on risc, not that that's a terribly good question
02:41:35 <madbr> psx was mips, n64 was mips as well
02:41:42 <madbr> ps2 was a mips derivative I think
02:42:12 <Bicyclidine> i'm just thinking of all the weird shit in the current gen
02:42:38 <elliott> the current gen is really boring
02:42:44 <madbr> sega 32x, saturn and dreamcast were superH
02:42:46 <elliott> it's just x86. okay plus the wii u
02:43:01 <madbr> handhelds are like all ARM
02:44:08 <oerjan> well that sounds pretty logical
02:46:05 <madbr> there's nothing really special about RISC, it's just a well balanced family of architectures in general
02:48:41 <oerjan> get a leg up with ARM hth
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03:03:15 <int-e> "fromEnum" is terribly long...
03:04:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Newton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41176&oldid=40041 * Lucasieks * (+114)
03:04:49 <int-e> so that's my third 183 character non-cheating Dominosa.
03:05:18 <int-e> (the other two are very similar, but each changes something non-trivial)
03:10:48 <oerjan> there was a point where i though a short fromEnum would have helped, but i no longer think so.
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03:40:17 <pikhq_> Lnging for the days of the SNES, eh?
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03:45:18 <madbr> snes has a lot of cool games
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03:46:55 <madbr> basically you can't do anything so you have to keep your game small
03:47:07 <Bicyclidine> imo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fox_2
03:47:11 <madbr> which means if you spend as much time it's more polished
03:47:39 <AndoDaan> Constantly bitched it after 3stages in StarFox me.
03:48:36 <AndoDaan> I do a barrelrole until my fingers bleed, but it's never enough.
03:48:41 <Bicyclidine> emulating this thing must be a pain in the ass, i just realized
03:49:22 <madbr> I'm trying to design a vm that's easy to emulate but can also run fast IRL
03:49:46 <Bicyclidine> don't allow people to plug in games with custom coprocessors in them, then
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03:58:40 <int-e> oerjan: ah I think I understand your trouble regarding the search order.
03:59:25 <int-e> 177, getting there.
04:04:02 <int-e> There, 175 non-cheating, 164 cheating slightly. yay.
04:06:19 <int-e> funny statistics though. (I won't bother with the slightly cheating version)
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04:07:44 <int-e> oerjan: surely there must be *some* room for optimization.
04:07:53 <elliott> dominosa small seems like hell
04:08:09 <int-e> elliott: I disagree, obviously.
04:08:42 <elliott> you can solve a problem while thinking it's hell
04:09:04 <int-e> elliott: well I didn't think it was hell because I approached it as a compression problem.
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04:09:35 <int-e> by that approach, it's not a cheat
04:10:27 <int-e> (you can see that I also stuck to my previous convention of using "alt" to mark the alternative approach to the problem that is not data compression ;-) )
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04:10:46 <int-e> (though that's not a very firm convention)
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04:11:04 <elliott> I thought you meant that what you did wasn't actually cheating
04:11:23 <elliott> you should really mark "data compression" solutions :p
04:11:29 <int-e> elliott: Yes, that's what I said.
04:12:10 <elliott> well, ok. I can't figure out whether you mean you use a different definition of "cheating", or whether you actually solved the problem in a way everyone would consider non-cheat but that still approaches it as a data compression problem.
04:12:32 <int-e> elliott: it's too much hassle, because I *will* accidently submit an improvement under the plain "int-e" nick at some point.
04:13:10 <int-e> (as can be seen in Wow, where I tried sticking to (boring) and (alt) throughout.)
04:15:34 <elliott> I like that 798-byte Python solution to Wow.
04:15:42 <int-e> elliott: I'm bending the notion of cheating. Anyway, I was initially answering your claim that Dominosa was hell. By never trying not to cheat (in your terminology ;-) ), it turned quite pleasant.
04:15:53 <int-e> s/turned/turned out/
04:16:56 <int-e> elliott: oh yes, I particularly like the space between print and "
04:17:04 <int-e> elliott: and of course, the nick that goes with it.
04:17:10 <elliott> well, if you're not going to try, why bother trying?
04:17:19 <elliott> eliminating the space would be a bit pointless.
04:17:33 <int-e> elliott: It's the salt in the soup.
04:17:51 <int-e> elliott: It's so fundamentally against any golfer's instinct.
04:17:54 <elliott> I should submit an answer like that to every problem
04:18:03 <elliott> if sys.stdin.read() == '...':
04:18:23 <int-e> I mean, eliminating superfluous whitespace is the first thing you do, before you even start thinking about imrpovements.
04:18:44 <elliott> int-e: I think printing a huge constant string with escapes is also against any golfer's instinct :p
04:20:10 <int-e> Bicyclidine: you know the correct link, right?
04:20:47 <int-e> Let me guess, ANA = All Nippon Airways?
04:22:35 <int-e> because you can sponsor pretty much anything you like as an airway.
04:22:57 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: surely there must be *some* room for optimization. <-- perhaps. i went through several improvement iterations already.
04:23:11 <int-e> Bicyclidine: http://www.ana.co.jp/anaopen/ hth
04:27:56 <oerjan> there was one point that didn't feel necessarily optimal, though.
04:29:54 <oerjan> i suppose there's always the possibility we've missed different ones
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04:33:59 <int-e> > map length ["notElem","all(/=)"]
04:34:19 <oerjan> i recall checking that before :)
04:34:42 <int-e> so that could explain 4 alphanums difference
04:35:56 <oerjan> perhaps our approaches are really different
04:36:20 <int-e> always a possibility
04:36:27 <int-e> it's just hard to imagine ;-)
04:36:52 <int-e> I mean, coming up with different approaches is hard.
04:37:20 <Bicyclidine> i suppose i'll remember this the next time i need to explain kolmogorov complexity
04:37:48 <oerjan> i can think of another variation with equal length that might give you 4 more symbols
04:38:05 <int-e> oerjan: Like the McCarthy thing, where the fundamental idea was to use strings of ")" as unary numbers, instead of an Int counter. When I found that, that's when I said "McCarthy is beautiful"
04:38:32 <oerjan> figures, because i never did
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05:00:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:And then]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41177 * Orenwatson * (+653) complaining
05:00:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:And then]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41178&oldid=41177 * Orenwatson * (+95)
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05:02:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:And then]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41179&oldid=41178 * Orenwatson * (+4) corrected perl code
05:24:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41180 * AnneFrank * (+28) Created page with "Goodness me brainfuck indeed"
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05:26:05 <elliott> temptation to block rising
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05:34:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41181&oldid=41180 * AnneFrank * (-20)
05:35:46 <int-e> that's a strange edit?
05:35:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41182&oldid=41181 * Orenwatson * (+144) reply to confusing message.
05:35:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:AnneFrank]] with an expiry time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): please pick a different username
05:38:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BillGates * New user account
05:39:51 <elliott> tempting to block again to see what they come up with next
05:40:05 <int-e> this brings back memories... of xbill
05:40:50 <Bicyclidine> indefinite (autoblock disabled): that one was funny, let's see what you can really do
05:41:17 <elliott> faking the colour, dedication
05:42:25 <elliott> well BillGates is borderline but it will maybe fall on the wrong side of the border when they make another bizarre edit
05:42:30 <elliott> although wikipedia would block that name in an instant
05:42:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:BillGates]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41183 * BillGates * (+121) Created page with "How do you create a throw/catch error for perl or am i mistaken on the panguage? im probably mistaken but if im not help"
05:43:01 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BillGates
05:43:01 <elliott> I hope not to seem unfriendly or make you feel unwelcome, but I noticed your username, and am concerned that it might not meet Wikipedia's username policy. After you look over that policy, could we discuss that concern here?
05:43:05 <elliott> Bill Gates is the name of a well-known living or recently deceased person which is a violation of the username policy.
05:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:BillGates]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41184&oldid=41183 * BillGates * (+0)
05:44:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ehird * blocked [[User:BillGates]] with an expiry time of indefinite (autoblock disabled): I meant a username that doesn't impersonate anyone living or dead other than yourself, please
05:44:31 <elliott> I like the "or recently deceased" part.
05:44:43 <elliott> I'd appreciate learning your own views, for instance your reasons for wanting this particular name, and what alternative username you might accept that avoids raising this concern.
05:45:05 <Bicyclidine> for a second i thought you meant you were copy pasting wikipedia's mention to this peep
05:45:22 <int-e> it would be fun if it were the real Bill Gates.
05:45:47 <elliott> int-e: and simultaneously the real anne frank?
05:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Josaphine O'Conner * New user account
05:45:56 <int-e> elliott: Soul wandering?
05:46:16 <elliott> is Josaphine O'Conner a corruption of some well-known name or something
05:46:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41185 * Josaphine O'Conner * (+39) Created page with "Better? i used my name if you dont mind"
05:46:43 <int-e> oh google. "Josephine O'Conner Death Records - FindTheBest Genealogy"
05:46:47 <elliott> Thanks to Brian Josephine's life is in danger, and some of Bragas men are on the hunt for O'Conner and Toretto. They will do anything to protect their family, even if it means getting Jack involved. (This is one of these kinds of stories that you write late at night, and decide to post. I apologize for any errors in the writing.)
05:47:25 <Bicyclidine> http://www.foreignaffairs.com/author/josephine-oconnor-howe oh ho
05:47:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:BillGates]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41186&oldid=41184 * Orenwatson * (+212) answered question.
05:48:12 <elliott> this is going to be such a mess
05:48:21 <elliott> can someone, like, merge those pages
05:49:31 <elliott> if I hadn't just said that, yes
05:49:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41187&oldid=41185 * Josaphine O'Conner * (+127)
05:50:09 <int-e> elliott: I know! Put them in a Web Ring!
05:50:59 <elliott> are we being watched... I'm mostly kidding with all this.
05:51:21 <elliott> it's the real bill gates and he has the NSA monitoring us...............
05:51:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41188&oldid=41187 * Orenwatson * (+424) answered question (on her new user page).
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05:53:44 <elliott> well, anyway, this gives the excellent illusion of making it look like the wiki was really active today
05:53:58 <HackEgo> Oren: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:54:39 <int-e> elliott: So it's Much Ado about Nothing?
05:55:06 <int-e> now the prey has arrived and we're ready to leap
05:55:09 <elliott> you know what would inflate it even further? oerjan featuring a new language
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05:56:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41189&oldid=41188 * Josaphine O'Conner * (+273)
05:57:09 <int-e> "im going to be a detrament to this community", really? ... (and I don't mean the typo)
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05:57:47 <Bicyclidine> as an actual detriment to the community, i'm watching the competition carefully
05:58:44 * elliott shakes head fretfully at this channel
05:58:49 <int-e> anyway, my first thought when seeing the question was "this is not stackoverflow".
05:58:50 <Oren> I'll try and answer her issue...
05:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41190&oldid=41189 * Orenwatson * (+329)
06:02:19 <Oren> you mean, them brainfuck-clones... http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:And_then
06:02:53 <elliott> people have been despairing brainfuck clones for pretty much the entire seven years I've been here :p
06:03:31 <elliott> sadly your perl script cannot reproduce And then because of the "mandatory header" if nothing else.
06:03:40 <elliott> at least it was added to the _joke_ language list and not the real one.
06:04:05 <Oren> I haven't been here long and I'm already like 絶望した!
06:04:25 <Oren> every time I see a bf clone
06:04:42 <Oren> zetsuboushita.gif
06:05:31 <elliott> sadly most of the non-BF clones aren't that great either
06:05:48 <fizzie> oerjan: I "agreed", but didn't get anything done. Huge surprise there. Maybe today!
06:06:33 <elliott> fizzie: did you get the memo? we're going against the process and featuring And then immediately, for the rest of time
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06:07:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41191&oldid=41190 * Josaphine O'Conner * (+189)
06:09:02 <Oren> Is she being DDOS'd by hakkers on steroids? lol.
06:10:08 <Dulnes> How about those turkeys
06:11:22 <Dulnes> Also do some of these bots work or are they users who are names that
06:12:04 <Oren> I had turkey at thanksgiving dinner... it was delicious cooked by my aunt. I live in Canada but my aunt lived most of her life in Boston...
06:12:09 <elliott> glogbot does the codu.org logs
06:12:15 <elliott> applybot... does something. I forget what.
06:12:52 <elliott> wasn't it hol light or isabelle or something
06:12:59 <Dulnes> Doesnt Canada have October thank give
06:13:18 <Bicyclidine> i said i THINK it srats with an m, asshole
06:13:27 <elliott> there are also some bots that don't have "bot" in the name. for instance clog, and Bicyclidine
06:13:57 -!- Bicyclidine has changed nick to Botcyclidine.
06:14:12 <Oren> that's correct. oct 12 is canada thankgiving. but some people in my family are form america, so we celebrate both.
06:14:32 <Botcyclidine> To comply with IRC standards, this interface will now prevent botloops via standard mechanisms.
06:14:49 <elliott> ...almost didn't put that . in
06:14:58 <elliott> I'm a responsible lambdabot admin who is not at all forgetful
06:15:57 <Dulnes> Slowly closes my many tabs
06:17:41 <Oren> only if you're eating other people.
06:18:14 <Botcyclidine> you know, that's another thing in that book, it wouldn't have covered kuru either
06:18:24 <Botcyclidine> the book on neurobiology of disease i almost bought and have not mentioned to you before this point
06:18:30 <Oren> can prions be transmitted if the meat is cooked to gray?
06:18:58 <Dulnes> Dead prions are still bad
06:19:44 <oerjan> the british ought to know after that mad cow thing
06:19:46 <Oren> yaeh, i was thinking about the denaturing of the proteins.
06:20:01 <Botcyclidine> "It was reported in January 2011 that researchers had discovered prions spreading through airborne transmission on aerosol particles," well, just give up
06:20:27 <elliott> I'm glad we're finally getting around to having the mature, channel-wide discussion about vore we've all been waiting for
06:20:27 <Botcyclidine> WHO recommends "Immerse in a pan containing 1N NaOH and heat in a gravity-displacement autoclave at 121 °C for 30 minutes; clean; rinse in water; and then perform routine sterilization processes"
06:20:31 <oerjan> Botcyclidine: i see good opportunities for a zombie plague here
06:20:41 <elliott> Botcyclidine: for eating human meat?
06:20:52 <elliott> I'm going to believe the WHO has recommendations about that and you can't convince me otherwise
06:20:55 <oerjan> routing sterilization processes means burning it, right
06:21:15 <oerjan> elliott: world humanitatian organization
06:21:23 <elliott> oerjan: sauteeing, actually
06:21:28 <Dulnes> Gravity displacement autoclave?
06:21:35 <int-e> quoth wikipedia: "[The prions'] structural stability means that prions are resistant to denaturation by chemical and physical agents, making disposal and containment of these particles difficult."
06:21:49 <Botcyclidine> Dulnes: an autoclave that works by letting the steam out through gravity
06:21:54 <Oren> dunking it in burning alcohol? fancy restaurants do that.
06:22:00 <int-e> Botcyclidine is better informed, I see.
06:22:04 <Botcyclidine> got that backwards, the steam comes in from the top and sinks down
06:22:29 <Botcyclidine> the thing with autoclaves is they have to remove the air somehow, see
06:22:55 <Dulnes> Mature channel wide discussion of vore? what do you mean elliott
06:23:01 <elliott> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Broad_billed_prion.jpg can't be denatured
06:23:04 <int-e> elliott: if you use @quit once, it'll come back. if you use it again too soon, it will stay away.
06:23:36 <Dulnes> Put your meat in a fireplace then
06:23:41 <Botcyclidine> might violate some ethics rules in the process, but hey
06:23:43 <elliott> Dulnes: I have no idea how to adequately answer your question
06:23:53 <elliott> please don't fuck fireplaces though
06:23:55 <Botcyclidine> can't cook an omelette without boiling a few vertebrates
06:24:00 <Oren> vore = fetish for eating people. I saw actual evidence of this fetish in Akihabara... Never again.
06:24:45 <Dulnes> I dont often scroll deep web
06:24:51 <Oren> yes it is. I have seen too much in this short life...
06:24:55 <elliott> you know, I think I'm going to officially decree vore as off-topic for #esoteric
06:25:19 <Dulnes> The topic is visual studio
06:26:00 <Dulnes> Well i think ive seen worse than vore then
06:26:04 <oerjan> i see Dulnes hasn't learned about rule 34 yet
06:26:38 <Botcyclidine> wrote a web portal for my dragon cars eating each other fetish community
06:26:40 <elliott> oerjan got the rule right the first time
06:27:03 <elliott> I have an idea, let's talk about literally anything else
06:27:29 <Oren> Who here still likes Visual Basic?
06:27:48 <Oren> I am still nostalgic for it
06:28:03 <Dulnes> Are you nostalgic for it
06:28:14 <Botcyclidine> when i was young and formative*, i read a 21 days VB book that had a line about C programmers always having to play catch up to VB programmers
06:28:20 <Dulnes> Or for what was happening in your life at the time
06:29:02 <Oren> I loved the drag and drop interface. If only someone made something like that for PHP/JQueryUI
06:29:06 <elliott> Botcyclidine: is the footnote ever going to come
06:29:32 <Dulnes> The drag and drop was handy
06:29:42 <Botcyclidine> *i am probably using this word wrong, but i only care enough to mark an asterisk and write this out, not enough to look it up
06:30:07 <Botcyclidine> later i used blitzbasic and it didn't have drag and drop ness
06:30:09 <oerjan> Botcyclidine: you could at least have written formaline
06:30:22 <Botcyclidine> and, laterer, i used matlab's interface generator, which is very similar to VB
06:31:17 <Botcyclidine> after that i joined the peace corps and died attempting to invade honduras? what do you want me to say
06:31:51 <oerjan> isn't that more like a war corps thing
06:32:43 <elliott> remember the fresh smell of organically harvested rubber roasting in the morning
06:33:29 <Botcyclidine> how do you organically harvest rubber? just like... poke a tree?
06:33:44 <elliott> Botcyclidine: without GMOs
06:33:48 <Dulnes> Set fire to rubber wood
06:34:19 <elliott> Oren: btw I'm sorry to report this channel is usually less out-of-control than this
06:34:28 <elliott> somehow it seems to catch fire when new people join
06:34:32 <Dulnes> Oh question when did you start coding elliott
06:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Newton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41192&oldid=41176 * Oerjan * (+1) fmt
06:34:47 <elliott> 2004ish, when I was about 8.
06:35:27 <Oren> You're younger than me!
06:35:30 <int-e> Botcyclidine: what a question. "The latex is a sticky, milky colloid drawn off by making incisions into the bark and collecting the fluid in vessels in a process called 'tapping'."
06:35:30 <elliott> I mean I did some things with, like, typing out BASIC programs into old computers before that and the like, but not really much in the way of original programming.
06:35:59 <Dulnes> Im always confused on years i forget time aloy
06:36:27 <elliott> Botcyclidine: well, 2014-(2004-8) gives the wrong result.
06:36:47 <Botcyclidine> like you can drink in the US either way, probably
06:36:48 <elliott> Dulnes: I felt a lot younger when I first joined here and I was 11 :/
06:37:11 <elliott> I know, right? your country is weird
06:37:25 <Dulnes> Your parents must be very lax to let you internet at 11
06:37:26 <elliott> alright this time I be the brit and you be the american
06:37:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41193&oldid=41182 * Oerjan * (+49) unsigned
06:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41194&oldid=41193 * Oerjan * (+1) oops
06:37:50 <elliott> Dulnes: I had internet for years before that.
06:38:18 <Dulnes> Ill probably die at 34
06:38:36 <Dulnes> Since i have seizures and such medical issues
06:38:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:BillGates]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41195&oldid=41186 * Oerjan * (+50) unsigned
06:39:10 <elliott> I don't think any of my medical issues are likely to significantly shorten my lifespan
06:39:31 <elliott> that's not generally considered a medical issue Botcyclidine
06:40:43 <Dulnes> Seizures & Brain cancer are probably the top two that are going to kill me
06:40:45 <elliott> didn't they remove most of the paraphilia stuff
06:40:49 <Oren> due to my statistical groups I am most likely to die of suicide.
06:41:13 <Dulnes> guys dont talk bout suicide
06:41:39 <Dulnes> Anyways different topic
06:41:57 <int-e> I think I prefer fatal morbidity to Visual Studio support.
06:42:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Josaphine O'Conner]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41196&oldid=41191 * Oerjan * (+177) unsigned
06:42:10 <Botcyclidine> https://twitter.com/neuroecology/status/537790766178136064
06:42:27 <Oren> Ok, so long as you don't give me flashbacks to that attic in Akiba.
06:42:54 <madbr> msvc vs gcc... so many ways to interpret the same c++ standard
06:43:06 <Dulnes> Unplugs modem and dips it in hydrochloric acid
06:43:23 <Botcyclidine> geez mon, didn't know you were so sensitive about computational neuroscience
06:43:29 <madbr> also someone should be punched for 32 bit long in 64bit msvc vs 64bit in 64bit gcc
06:43:34 <madbr> no idea who but someone
06:43:56 <elliott> long should be 64-bit with mingw I think?
06:44:04 <elliott> a lot of things would break if it violated the platform ABI
06:44:14 <int-e> . o O ( "Of course people eat people. Which part of 'omni' in 'omnivore' didn't you understand?!" )
06:44:43 <Oren> elliot: not secret. you literally go to top floor of any store in akihabara and go upstairs. don't go to the top floor of any manga store... ever.
06:44:46 <Dulnes> Death isnt really a topic for me since im going to Die in 9 years and leave my kids behind.
06:45:16 <madbr> elliott: never really used mingw directly but if I'm not mistaken it has a mix of posix ABI stuff and win32 ABI stuff
06:45:43 <madbr> like, gcc link system but it also has to deal with msvc generated dlls to be useful
06:45:44 <Oren> just use int64_t if you need a particular bit length.
06:46:01 <Oren> or int32_t or whatever
06:46:06 <elliott> madbr: if it had 64-bit long then calling functions in libraries not compiled with mingw would be kinda bad
06:46:18 <Botcyclidine> i don't think HCl would be good for disposing of modems, btw
06:46:23 <madbr> no idea what it does
06:46:29 <madbr> it probably has a switch
06:46:43 <Oren> bubbles hydrogen gas... don't light a match
06:47:01 <Oren> or boom hindenburg
06:47:09 <Botcyclidine> well, yeah, but i mean it's notterribly efficient destruction wise
06:47:44 * oerjan wonders if Dulnes's irc client has the /me command
06:47:53 <madbr> elliott : windows/posix mixes are usually kinda insane, too
06:48:08 <zzo38> i DO USE mINgw FOR MY OWN PROGRAMS
06:48:17 <zzo38> I do use MinGW for my own programs
06:48:35 <Oren> why does the capslock key still exist
06:48:43 <zzo38> To type in all capitals
06:48:50 <zzo38> Oren: Why do you type in all lowercase then?
06:48:52 <Botcyclidine> so i have something to hit to turn on my mic. actually no zzo's answer is better.
06:49:11 <madbr> you can compile non-win32 executables in cygwin
06:49:18 <madbr> (ELF binaries I think)
06:49:21 <zzo38> Unfortunately the light on my keyboard to indicate caps lock is broken
06:50:02 <Oren> i type in all lowercase because i see no reason to press shift when i would be fully understood even if i did not.
06:51:09 <madbr> also: there are two x64 ABIs (microsoft/msvc and posix/gcc)
06:51:32 <madbr> yes that's retarded
06:51:47 <Oren> i set capslock to shift into japaneseたとえば、これ。
06:53:22 <madbr> it would be interesting to calculate the number of manhours lost to the win32 vs posix differences actually
06:54:15 <Oren> starting with every time i have to convert \r\n to \n
06:55:02 <Oren> and C:\\blah\\afsf to /blah/afsf
06:55:12 <zzo38> madbr: I try to write program to avoid such things, when they are needed I can use #ifdef and that stuff; for example to change stdin/stdout into binary mode if the program is using it
06:55:30 <zzo38> Oren: In Windows the C functions can you backslash or forward slash both are acceptable
06:55:54 <zzo38> And you can use fopen(...,"wb") it selects binary mode; on UNIX it is treated the same as "w"
06:57:04 <Botcyclidine> @tell Dulnes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvlllG1FwjI revise your disposal strategies
06:58:05 <elliott> "Skip to 4:20 for the burst." I always skip to 420
06:58:43 <Botcyclidine> anyway it looks like it's caused by pressure buildup anyway
07:00:01 <Oren> my mom was all proud when I smoked pot for the first time. made me never want to do it again - what's the point if your mom doesn't hate it?
07:01:44 <Oren> i never did it again after that.
07:02:32 <Botcyclidine> last time i mentioned #drugz to my parents my mom related drinking booze through a catheter.
07:02:39 <madbr> zzo38 : yeah that's the basics of it but there's much more gory fallout
07:03:09 <madbr> like utf-16 vs utf-8 filename handling
07:04:18 <madbr> or abs() being integer on gcc (you're supposed to use fabs() instead, and it also interacts with the C/C++ divide)
07:04:58 <zzo38> I just always use ASCII filenames and avoid that issue
07:05:15 <madbr> also, caps sensitive filenames
07:05:33 <Oren> That's fine until your clients in Japan and Europe are yelling at you.
07:06:27 <Oren> because esmé.doc isn't uploading
07:07:12 <madbr> or your program gets installed to a path that has é somewhere in the folder name
07:07:44 <elliott> how do you even know about esme
07:07:56 <madbr> or you write a python 2 script. é appears somewhere. the whole thing crashes
07:08:09 <Oren> I have lurked on the wiki for ~three years
07:08:10 <madbr> (sorry but that's retarded)
07:09:07 <zzo38> It crashes because an incorrect character appears somewhere? That's certainly not good, it should just treat them as any other bytes in the input file are, and therefore don't crash.
07:09:27 <zzo38> Inside of an identifier it could display an error, but in a string literal it should be permitted.
07:09:38 <madbr> zzo38 : yes but obviously python2 was designed by an idiot
07:10:04 <madbr> in theory you're supposed to use a different string type
07:10:05 <Botcyclidine> i tried using eight bit characters for some ascii hardware i had and kana came out
07:10:39 <madbr> in practice, aint nobody have time for that
07:10:47 <zzo38> Botcyclidine: That is because you have to use the correct character encodings, clearly.
07:11:01 <Oren> hiragana or katakana? some old japanese computers mapped kana to some of the upper 128 chars
07:11:05 <zzo38> madbr: Do you mean normal strings are 7-bit character strings?
07:11:27 <zzo38> ASCII is only 7-bits so 8-bit character sets, if they are ASCII, are actually extended ASCII.
07:11:37 <Botcyclidine> Oren: kana. after some searching i found out it's a typeface particular to the kind of screen. it was almost shift-jis but not, so frustrating
07:11:54 <Oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0201 probly
07:12:06 <madbr> basically if é appears anywhere, the default string operations in python2 cause an exception and stop the program
07:12:41 <Oren> wow I'm glad I use perl despite its linenoiseness
07:12:42 <madbr> because it's "invalid for the default string type you're supposed to use the unicode string type or something"
07:13:00 <elliott> unicode in perl is no picnic
07:13:11 <Botcyclidine> Oren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_HD44780_LCD_controller#Font
07:13:34 <madbr> also retarded: the uppercase version of i in Java is I
07:13:41 <Botcyclidine> by the way, are you at all related to orenronen
07:13:44 <madbr> EXCEPT if your computer is in turkish
07:14:14 <b_jonas> So I have a serious question. In Funciton, how do you define a function that takes two lambdas and an integer as its input, and returns one of those two lambdas depending on whether that number is nonzero?
07:14:16 <elliott> can you lay off the "retarded"
07:14:20 <madbr> surprise your program crashes in turkey
07:14:40 <zzo38> I always use "C" locale and avoid such problems, but I wrote program in C anyways.
07:14:53 <Oren> the hitachi thing looks like a variant on jis 208
07:15:03 <Oren> or rather super set of
07:15:04 <zzo38> My shell scripts on UNIX systems I access I always set the locale to C explicitly in order to avoid problems
07:15:05 <Botcyclidine> the kana thing was also pretty funny because my program was super buggy and just dumped memory at the thing, so all this half-japanese gibberish scrolls by as i pull out my hair
07:15:16 <madbr> elliott: I've lost many hours to figuring out why some tool suddenly stopped working
07:15:32 <Botcyclidine> insulting things is fine, just use a different insult if you would
07:15:43 <elliott> you can say whatever you want, I'm just asking you not to use that word
07:15:52 <Oren> I am entirely unrelated to orenronen
07:16:01 <Oren> so far as I know
07:16:09 <madbr> and turning out because word decided to turn "..." into "…"
07:16:12 <zzo38> madbr: What tool is that?
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07:16:49 <zzo38> Do you mean Microsoft Word? You can turn off autocorrection in Microsoft Word.
07:17:01 <madbr> zzo38 : an internal tool that turned an excel sheet of like all the sfx in a game (often with 1000+ sounds) into xml for the engine
07:17:10 <Botcyclidine> you could introduce yourself as mister dogfucker and i'd be like nice to meet you
07:17:17 <madbr> zzo38 : I know but the sound designer that made that excel sheet didn't
07:17:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Funciton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41197&oldid=38214 * B jonas * (+376) /* Conditional returning lambda */ new section
07:18:00 <madbr> or he typed some french into the comment section somewhere and the parser choked anyways
07:18:20 <madbr> or also some unicode version of "-" that's not the real dash
07:18:41 <Oren> I'm not Japanese -- I learned it from a dear friend in primary school. My last name is Watson
07:18:58 <zzo38> Those are some problems caused by Unicode and stuff, although it shouldn't care about the character encoding used in comments; that doesn't make sense.
07:19:06 <Botcyclidine> that you aren't japanese, anyway, not the other stuff
07:19:10 <Oren> My japanese is terrible but i can survive in japan
07:19:21 <madbr> zzo38 : the string just gets copied into a dictionary
07:19:36 <madbr> which is enough to crash the script
07:20:11 <zzo38> Yes, it is designed badly then
07:20:11 <madbr> because python2 strings crash instead of doing something sensible
07:21:16 <Oren> Why can't the language just treat all upper-byte characters as if they were legal identifier letters?
07:21:19 <madbr> also filling docs with "accents in filenames don't work" and adding checks in scripts etc
07:21:42 <zzo38> In the programs I have written I generally accept any characters in comments, but outside of comments usually only ASCII characters are allowed (although there are a few exceptions in some cases).
07:21:45 <Botcyclidine> why can't it just treat C1 control characters correctly, imo,
07:22:07 <madbr> Oren : probably got fixed in python3. which does you no good because nobody uses it because it's not compatible with python2
07:22:12 <zzo38> Oren: That is another way too, yes. CWEB converts all 128-255 characters into letters so that it can be used in a C program.
07:23:06 <elliott> b_jonas: sorry, this channel is about unicode :p
07:23:18 <madbr> sound designers are not technical people
07:23:28 <Oren> Becuause of this ascii rubbish all Japanese coders code their stuff in Engrish instead of understandable japanese
07:23:45 <elliott> b_jonas: but maybe this will help: Since the only datatype in Funciton is the arbitrary-size integer, a compliant interpreter must allocate a non-zero integer to every lambda closure the program creates. The lambda expression box returns an integer that identifies the closure, and the lambda invocation box will use the number to identify the lambda closure to invoke. This approach has many ...
07:23:47 <zzo38> Although, the #TITLE command in VGMCK accepts UTF-8 encoding
07:23:51 <elliott> ... advantages; in particular, you can automatically have lists of functions. The integers returned are required to be non-zero as a convenience so that the user code can still use the number 0 to mean null or false in cases where a lambda is optional.
07:24:06 <zzo38> Oren: I have seen program with the comments in Japanese though; it isn't much problem.
07:24:27 <madbr> they don't understand that calling a sfx explosion_deuxième_prise.wav is going to break some way or another
07:24:30 <zzo38> If the compiler doesn't accept arbitrary comments then it isn't very good.
07:25:28 <madbr> so then you need a second guy to go through their stuff to make it ok for computers because computers are stupid
07:25:40 <b_jonas> elliott: hmm, that might work
07:26:00 <b_jonas> elliott: that might cause some difficulties of how garbage collection works
07:26:21 <b_jonas> you'd have to define how exactly you're allowed to store functions to keep them referenced
07:26:33 <madbr> cap sensitive file systems will also break in not-so-cool way
07:26:37 <elliott> b_jonas: okay, but it doesn't, so by the axiom that GC never breaks a program, it will work
07:26:37 <b_jonas> so it's possible, but the language spec would need some extension for it
07:26:46 <oerjan> sounds like it pretty much excludes garbage collection
07:26:51 <madbr> name an asset Funky_stuff.wav
07:27:03 <elliott> you can do conditionals with lambdas as much as with integers
07:27:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe… but this seems a more practical language than that
07:27:08 <madbr> play funky_stuff.wav in your code
07:27:09 <elliott> since they are integers :p
07:27:12 <Botcyclidine> can you use a conservative collector, btw i am not paying attention
07:27:16 <madbr> it looks like it works
07:27:20 <elliott> b_jonas: practical? it stores strings in BigInts
07:27:49 <madbr> surprise the sfx doesn't play on iphone or whatever because the file system is case sensitive
07:27:50 <b_jonas> elliott: yeah... and the example implementations of the functions aren't too efficient either
07:27:52 <elliott> not even with reasonable alignment (21 bits)
07:28:06 <madbr> and nobody caught it because it plays on windows
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07:28:20 <Oren> In otherwords in order to be compatible with everything, you have to put everything as binary inside the exe.
07:28:23 <b_jonas> what I was thinking is that it would just extend the nand operation to return something sensible for lambdas, so that you can still use it for conditionals
07:28:52 <elliott> b_jonas: but lambda expressions evaluate to integers
07:28:52 <madbr> oren : one favorite strategy is "One huge data file"
07:28:53 <b_jonas> like, 0 NAND somelambda is still -1, and -1 NAND somelambda is somelambda, and stuff
07:29:01 <madbr> (usually a zip with compression turned off)
07:29:10 <madbr> the zip parses the same on every platform
07:29:21 <zzo38> You can put everything into a SQLite database for example too
07:29:35 <zzo38> There are many ways to put multiple data into one file
07:30:18 <b_jonas> elliott: you're right, the description says "
07:30:20 <madbr> zzo38 : like 10 meg data files that are going to be updated over svn and baked through data generation/compression scripts?
07:30:23 <b_jonas> Since the only datatype in Funciton is the arbitrary-size integer, a compliant interpreter must allocate a non-zero integer to every lambda closure the program creates.
07:30:29 <b_jonas> The lambda expression box returns an integer that identifies the closure, and the lambda invocation box will use the number to identify the lambda closure to invoke."
07:30:41 <b_jonas> so they practically can't be garbage collected
07:30:41 <elliott> b_jonas: I quoted that to you earlier :)
07:30:57 <elliott> probably not a great design decision, IMO
07:30:57 <b_jonas> elliott: I didn't know that was a quote
07:31:05 <madbr> zzo38 : also there are 1000 of these files
07:31:06 <b_jonas> ok, well this answers the question]
07:31:08 <elliott> ah, yeah, I should probably have added quotes
07:31:16 <elliott> sorry about that, bad dhabit
07:31:21 <oerjan> especially since lists of integers are essentially a form of godel encoding
07:31:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Funciton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41198&oldid=41197 * B jonas * (+173) /* Conditional returning lambda */
07:31:46 <oerjan> there's just no way to know how an integer referring to a lambda may be hidden
07:31:49 <madbr> zzo38 : also the suits/marketing guys want to have DLC and then you need multiple data paths for god damn everything
07:33:04 <Oren> Or it's an application that users make files with, so, you're at the mercy of the users' filename choices
07:33:06 <zzo38> madbr: Well, depending what file you can certainly still use SQLite; it is actually pretty powerful. There is also OHRRPGCE "lumped" foramts, which is like a simple file archive basically.
07:34:06 <Oren> for example saved games or user-made maps
07:34:17 <Oren> also have the problem
07:34:27 <madbr> uses free standing files
07:34:33 <elliott> oerjan: never mind hiding it, you could also just iterate through all integers and try calling them as lambdas later on
07:34:43 <zzo38> Yes I know how MegaZeux works
07:34:48 <madbr> a game is a folder of data files songs etc
07:34:58 <elliott> well maybe it dies if you hit an invalid one but that doesn't matter
07:34:58 <madbr> it used to be a DOS program
07:35:15 <madbr> which means that to even work on Posix it has to simulate caps insensitivity
07:35:15 <zzo38> Yes I know that too I used the DOS version and actually know of some of the significant differences
07:35:36 <zzo38> (Which actually broke some of my older MegaZeux games)
07:40:15 <Oren> i'm back from looking up megazeux
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07:42:14 <Oren> is it just me or does every document file format eventually become turing complete?
07:42:49 <Oren> what with VBA and javascript for example
07:43:01 <lifthrasiir> wait a min, javascript is not a document file format
07:43:13 <zzo38> Oren: I don't know. I suppose it depend. I know TeX can do a lot of program.
07:43:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no, javascript in (html and in pdf)
07:43:22 <Oren> javascript was added to html becuase html was not sufficient
07:43:50 <Oren> VBA was added to docs and xls becuase they needed programmability
07:43:53 <zzo38> Oren: I think HTML is pretty sufficient really
07:44:23 <Oren> not sufficient for users' wants
07:45:13 <lifthrasiir> HTML as a document format is sufficient already, HTML as an application platform... would be never sufficient.
07:45:20 <b_jonas> Oren: you're getting it backwards. HTML is sufficient for what the users want, it's not sufficient for what the people who want to make their websites unusable want
07:45:40 <lifthrasiir> and we are living in the age that somehow mixes both
07:46:05 <b_jonas> (or maybe it's sufficient for what the users need, but not sufficient for what the users want?)
07:46:08 <madbr> javascript is not industrial grade enough to build a serious game on
07:46:09 <zzo38> HTML+CSS+JavaScript works as a VM in many cases, although it is a terrible design for such a thing!
07:48:33 <Oren> Which is why jquery was invented.
07:48:41 <Oren> and then angular js
07:49:05 <zzo38> No, it is still a terrible design; JavaScript isn't a bad programming language, it is that the VM design is terrible.
07:49:50 <Oren> no the ui is terrible. I want by drag and drop forms and buttons back, that I had for VB apps in 1999.
07:50:38 <b_jonas> the problem isn't with javascript, it's how many websites that wouldn't need it have an interface that require you to run a beefy box and wide bandwidth to access something that they could just publish on a simple text interface through a 32 kilobit/second modem
07:51:03 <b_jonas> including some online banking stuff
07:51:23 <b_jonas> and they manage to modify websites that used to work fine to do this too
07:51:24 <Oren> noone knows how to use telnet anymore.
07:51:38 <zzo38> I do think SSH would be better for this bank interface anyways
07:51:48 <b_jonas> Oren: it needn't be telnet, it can be just plain small htmls with no fancy javascript thingies where there's no point adding them
07:52:02 <zzo38> (Telnet isn't secure enough though. Actually, HTTPS also isn't quite as secure enough.)
07:52:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, I think just plain nineties style html with ZERO javascript and zero images would work for this banking interface
07:53:07 <b_jonas> they managed to make an interface where I can't just type a date to an input box, I have to use their fancy unusable javascripd date chooser
07:53:13 <zzo38> It would, but I think SSH is working OK
07:54:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: not for banking, but for other stuff, a html interface is usually better than an ssh interface, because it's easier to automate, especially if they put in helpful class and id attributes everywhere
07:54:27 <Oren> The problem is that there isn't a standard <input type="date"> in HTML<5
07:54:28 <zzo38> It deepnds much on the design.
07:55:30 <b_jonas> Oren: there is, but who cares, it can be just a plain text input box (which is what the html5 date control falls back to, and no matter the fancy control, I want to just type in a fucking date as YYYY-mm-dd without having to use the mouse and trying to navigate through calendar pages)
07:55:59 <b_jonas> they should just have a text input box
07:57:18 <b_jonas> at least the online banking interface has the advantage that it's completely replaced only like once every five years, unlike some crazy websites
07:58:50 <Oren> I dunno if that's a virtue. My father's website has worked the same since 1994, only the backend has been updated.
07:59:05 <b_jonas> it's a virtue only in comparison
07:59:35 <Oren> so it is exactly as you describe, no JS, all pure html forms
08:00:58 <b_jonas> I don't insist on having no javascript, only that it works without the javascript too.
08:01:09 <b_jonas> And the javascript shouldn't actively make it more difficult to use the page.
08:02:45 <Oren> maybe that's too much to ask though
08:04:16 <Oren> that any technology not create work as well as saving work, is too much to ask possibly
08:04:59 <Oren> I tend to get philosophical at 3am.
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08:08:19 <Oren> Hello, London?
08:08:58 <Oren> or possibly Portugal
08:12:51 <Oren> related : http://xkcd.com/1335/
08:13:34 <Bicyclidine> i had to look up a country in africa at gmt. my first guess was niger, but it's just a little too far east
08:14:55 <Bicyclidine> hm. i bet elliott lives in Drowning Maud Land.
08:18:15 <oerjan> it's norwegian for Queen hth
08:18:37 <Oren> sanae - I immediately thought of 東方, and there is a user on this irc with the name drdanmaku
08:19:30 <oerjan> i don't think she drowned, she had something chronically bad let me check
08:19:38 <Oren> I pronounced that in my head as drawning, not drowning
08:20:20 <oerjan> that's good, if you want to be slightly closer to correct pronunciation
08:21:31 <oerjan> hm it seems to have been a sudden illness
08:21:42 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maud_of_Wales#Maud.27s_death
08:22:59 <Oren> youngest daughter of the king of england. european royalty have weird family trees
08:23:29 <Oren> but then so do I, blah...
08:23:58 <Bicyclidine> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/EgyptianPtolemies2.jpg
08:25:19 <oerjan> yeah our king's mother was swedish royalty, his (paternal) grandmother (maud) was english royalty and his grandfather was danish royalty
08:25:20 <Oren> yah a few kissing cousins doesn't compare
08:25:48 <oerjan> however both he and his son have married "ordinary" people
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08:37:54 <Oren> idea: rather than most languages where we struggle or use libraries for dates and times, a language in which the only type is datetime.
08:39:08 <Oren> and containing many constructs useful for such type.
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08:40:17 <oerjan> it will be the first computer essentially based on computus
08:42:56 <Oren> characters -, T and : are reserved for ISO-8601 literals, which require no quoting. So you would just write x=2014-06-25T06:36:09
08:43:41 <Oren> also + for time zone
08:44:07 <Oren> in fact maybe use ADD DIVIDE COBOL style
08:45:08 <Oren> ADD 3 DAYS TO x.
08:46:48 <Oren> ROUND x TO A WEEK
08:46:53 <zzo38> What about, advance until Sunday, advance until full moon, advance until Easter, advance backwards such that Sun's ecliptic longitude matches that which Mars has during the current date...
08:47:17 <Oren> ROUND x TO NEXT SUNDAY
08:48:00 <Oren> Maybe ADVANCE is a clearer keyword tho
08:48:15 <Oren> This will be the SQL of dates.
08:48:35 <Oren> except that SQL is already the SQL of dates.
08:49:11 <zzo38> I know how to program SQL too. It has no commands like that though
08:51:05 <Oren> not like that, but most web programs store and handle dates in SQL that I've seen... that might just be me though
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08:51:51 <Oren> I think php has better native dates than perl -- that might be it.
08:53:57 <Oren> ADD 1 MONTH TO x -- this is a really complex operation for many reasons
08:54:25 <Oren> ADD 1 QUARTER to x
08:55:23 <Oren> ADVANCE x TO NEXT HOLIDAY
08:55:46 <Oren> requires sophisticated locale
08:57:34 <Oren> LET y BE ALL WEEKDAYS FROM x TO z.
08:57:52 <Oren> BUSINESS DAY is a thing too
08:58:44 <Oren> and then you have time. SET x TO 8:00 THAT DAY
08:59:47 <Oren> I'mma try and build a prototype of this when I have time.
09:03:28 <Oren> SET x TO LAST OF exam_days. ADD 1 DAY TO x. PRINT x.
09:04:08 <Oren> PRINT x AS DATE FORMAT WORDS
09:05:15 <Oren> >>>Wednesday, December 17, 2014
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09:09:04 <Oren> really every part of a datetime needs to be nullable.
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09:30:24 <AndoDaan> Is it alright if I use a talk/discussion page, specifically MNNBFSL's, to write down my non concrete musing on possible constants/algorithms/converting from BF?
09:33:31 <Oren> converting from BF to what?
09:34:06 <AndoDaan> and i mean constants/algorithms in MNNBFSL
09:34:47 <zzo38> O, OK, I think is OK I suppose?
09:35:44 <mroman> AndoDaan: nice job on that MNNBFSL Interpreter
09:36:44 <AndoDaan> thanks! I'm not sure if it does error handling perfectly/well though. I might have to double check that.
09:37:11 <Oren> I see. まだ名前のないBrainfuck Stack Language is it?
09:38:17 <Oren> "not yet having a name"
09:38:59 <AndoDaan> As far as I could make out from google translate, that's what the author left the name as.
09:40:15 <mroman> wooho my little japanese knowledge finally pays off
09:41:27 <Oren> my japanese knowledge mostly pays off in not needing to wait for scanlators...
09:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41199&oldid=41164 * Orenwatson * (+15) explained what language the name is in
09:43:53 <mroman> AndoDaan: you can btw. embed " in strings with \'
09:44:14 <mroman> \' is the escape sequence for "
09:45:02 <AndoDaan> Helpful, thanks. Should I add the link to the first mention of MNNBFSL (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdsOTr6SmDrxuWE7sJFrkhQ)
09:45:16 <AndoDaan> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yshl/20140726
09:46:33 <AndoDaan> phew, accidental youtube link was non-incriminating.
09:47:44 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JVlpm0eRs
09:48:07 <Oren> In that name, まだ名前のないBrainfuck風スタック言語 , the 風 which on the wiki is simply "fu" should be translated as "style" or "method"
09:48:32 <Oren> or transcribed properly as fū
09:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41200&oldid=41199 * Orenwatson * (+11) made translation of fuu
09:51:53 <Oren> the fuu literally is the chinese character for "wind" but it also means the general "direction of flow" of something etc... chinese characters are hard
09:53:09 <Oren> and the sma echaracter is pronounced differently when it means the other meaning
09:53:41 <mroman> I didn't know something like gofundme existed
09:53:52 <mroman> and I'm suprised that they actually can raise the money
09:56:56 <Oren> According to the Japanese developer, this is a cat program in mnnbfsl:
09:56:58 <Oren> [<+++++"[->+++++<"][]">"++>] [.,]
09:57:13 <AndoDaan> You probably have to have a good pre-existing online presence to have any luck.
09:57:23 <Oren> why is it so different from the one on the wiki?
09:58:51 <mroman> AndoDaan: or a good story.
09:59:26 <fizzie> mroman: I wanted to distinguish it from "cheat".
09:59:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41201&oldid=41200 * AndoDaan * (+28) /* Examples */ fixed wrong code
09:59:54 <mroman> supercheat > cheat > no cheat
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10:00:31 <Oren_> The other program on the japanese website is apparently a "busy loop"
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10:02:18 <myname> are there competitions for bf busy beavers?
10:02:23 <Oren_> this comment presents FizzBuzz in MNNBFSL
10:02:23 <fizzie> mroman: "no cheat" should (modulo bugs) find a valid solution to any solvable Dominosa instance (with the same size); "cheat" makes one untrue assumption and tweaks the search a bit to succeed on the three test puzzles and probably some vaguely defined subset of others; "supercheat" just encodes the output and doesn't actually solve the problem.
10:02:26 <Oren_> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/yshl/20140823
10:02:58 <AndoDaan> Oren_, https://github.com/yshl/MNNBFSL/tree/master/example it's all gathered there.
10:04:28 <mroman> that's what we call an embed solution
10:04:36 <mroman> which is usually suffixed with (embed)
10:04:44 <fizzie> I've heard the term, but int-e was using just (cheat).
10:05:27 <fizzie> In retrospect, that would've been more informative, if less whimsical.
10:09:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41202&oldid=41201 * AndoDaan * (+23) /* Commands */ changed 9+1 to 9=8+1
10:12:15 <AndoDaan> Looking at the cat example, it seems it's using the loop method I've been trying to form.
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10:43:34 <b_jonas> `8ball is it too early yet?
10:46:03 <zzo38> It is too early for what?
10:47:14 <Oren_> to be awake possibly
10:47:43 <Oren_> how can it be too early yet though is another question.
10:48:37 <Oren_> yet implies something is false will become true, but being too early only ever changes from true to false ... hmmm....
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10:50:10 <zzo38> Don't you have a clock?
11:06:18 <b_jonas> http://underhanded.xcott.com/?p=26 The 7th Underhanded C Contest is now Open
11:06:44 <b_jonas> yeah, twelve days old news. I didn't notice till now.
11:07:27 <b_jonas> also, 23rd IOCCC winners announced: http://www.de.ioccc.org/2014/whowon.html
11:08:44 <FireFly> Yusuke Endoh is that Ruby guy, isn't he?
11:09:24 <b_jonas> wait, two klingon web servers?
11:11:01 <FireFly> also the guy who made http://mamememo.blogspot.se/2010/09/qlobe.html and https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
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13:10:34 <Sgeo> :( beginning to look like Rust flat out won't work for my use case
13:29:25 <int-e> . o O ( Use case: Erecting a Steel Framework. )
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14:13:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41203&oldid=41096 * TomPN * (+3) /* Increase and decreasing the value of a cell */
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15:06:24 <J_Arcane> Anyone had any experience with F#?
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15:41:36 <cluid> b_jonas, did you work on Janus?
15:42:09 <cluid> i got confused sorry
15:44:49 <cluid> zzo38, BTW, I saw some dead links on C2 wiki
15:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> so i've just realised that i don't actually know what colour red bull is
15:47:31 <ion> It is colored E150a and E101.
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15:48:17 <cluid> I would like to improve the RegXy page on esoteric wiki
15:48:29 <cluid> but also I couldn't find it because I thought itw ould be called Reg Xy
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15:53:42 <b_jonas> is there something like a comesub, which is like a comefrom but pushes the from address to the return stack? or would that defeat the whole point of comefrom?
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16:13:15 <cluid> where can i see the code
16:13:16 <cluid> http://www.de.ioccc.org/2014/whowon.html
16:14:02 <b_jonas> cluid: you can't yet. the source code is usually released a few weeks later, probably in January
16:14:02 <fizzie> Usually it takes them a while to release the sources.
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18:06:57 <Oren_> Why doesn't C have a bitwise rotate operator???
18:07:30 <J_Arcane> Oren_: Same answer as any C question: because it hates you.
18:07:32 <Oren_> My assignment is to do SHA1
18:09:01 <Oren_> So I have to define yet another bit_rotate() macro... a macro which appears in so many programs, like the max macro
18:10:51 <Oren_> Proposal for C2020 - add a variadic max operator
18:11:47 <Oren_> And a ones-complement add operator.
18:11:49 <elliott> defining a correct, type-generic max is kind of hard.
18:12:23 <Oren_> So long as it works for integers and floats...
18:12:25 <elliott> in fact it might require C11
18:12:35 <elliott> Oren_: the main problem is that max(x, y) usually evaluates x or y twice
18:12:48 <Oren_> that's why it should be in the compiler...
18:13:03 <elliott> you can avoid this with gcc statement expressions but, I think, at the cost of breaking things if y references whatever name was used to put the result of x in
18:13:08 <elliott> (I don't think gcc has proper gensym)
18:13:13 <b_jonas> Oren_: libecb has a bit rotation function/macro, see http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libecb.html
18:13:16 <elliott> with C11, you can use _Generic and dispatch to actual functions
18:13:45 <b_jonas> Oren_: you could try to use that instead of defining your own
18:13:48 <Oren_> max(x, y) should be a macro for __Max() or something, the way they did typeof and bool
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18:14:12 <elliott> well, building it into the compiler is kind of sad.
18:14:19 <elliott> it's like admitting your language has zero abstraction power.
18:14:38 <Oren_> C *does* have zero abstraction power
18:15:06 <Oren_> #define has less power than sed
18:16:13 <coppro> elliott: fuck _Generic
18:16:16 <coppro> fuck everything about it
18:16:47 <Gregor> Such strong feelings X-D
18:16:51 <elliott> Oren_: aw c'mon, people have implemented functional programming languages entirely in the preprocessor
18:17:20 <coppro> Gregor: it's a horrible hack
18:17:27 <Oren_> IImade a sed scipr once that added a swap operator
18:17:56 <coppro> the C committee persists in adopting very poor solutions to their problems
18:18:10 <Oren_> becuase it is a commitee
18:18:36 * elliott looks for that thing gcc has that is kind of like gensym
18:18:38 <coppro> Oren_: C++'s committee is waaaaaay more sane
18:18:40 <elliott> at least I remember it having something along those lines
18:18:42 <Oren_> good languages are designed by one visionary or two, not 15 guys
18:19:01 <coppro> although I guess that C++ is the exception that proves the rule
18:19:07 <elliott> gcc has some magical builtins
18:19:07 <elliott> — Built-in Function: void * __builtin_apply (void (*function)(), void *arguments, size_t size)
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18:19:11 <elliott> This built-in function invokes function with a copy of the parameters described by arguments and size.
18:19:18 <elliott> Oren_: haskell is designed by committee
18:19:37 <elliott> the Great Man theory has been obsolete for a while :p
18:20:44 <Bicyclidine> i wish we'd go back to "visionary" meaning "hallucinating"
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18:22:12 <elliott> was that a ragequit, or...
18:23:41 <elliott> of course it is maybe relevant that haskell was designed by committee /after/ said committee had separately made a bunch of languages similar to Haskell that they wanted to unify
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18:26:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SuperJedi224 * New user account
18:26:26 <Gregor> I was recently implementing an assembler (of sorts) for x86_64.
18:26:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41204 * SuperJedi224 * (+6) Created page with "Hello!"
18:26:43 <Gregor> x86_64 machine code is a true nightmare.
18:29:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41205 * SuperJedi224 * (+655) Created page with "GridScript is an esoteric programming language designed by SuperJedi224. It is not yet implemented. ==Sample Programs== ===Hello World=== #Hello World. @width 4 @heigh 1 (1..."
18:31:10 <Gregor> Of course it's an octothorpe.
18:31:28 <Gregor> That's the original(?)/best name for it.
18:31:44 <Bicyclidine> i imagine originally it was called something like "what the hell is this"
18:32:39 <Gregor> Bicyclidine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign#Other_names_in_English <-- srsly, octothorpe is for real X-D
18:32:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41206&oldid=41205 * SuperJedi224 * (+91) /* Sample Programs */
18:33:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:GridScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41207 * 71.222.118.42 * (+162) the pearl that lies in the sea hard by the loud-breathing serpent
18:34:15 <elliott> gonna just put completely random quotes in my edit summaries from now on
18:34:42 <Bicyclidine> my other edit summary was "hot singles in fungot's area" but that was nearly relevant, i'll have to be more careful
18:34:44 <fungot> Bicyclidine: but t-rex, you can't play the game optimally! and assuming that in a man... or a woman, dromiceiomimus
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18:35:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41208&oldid=41206 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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18:36:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41209&oldid=41208 * SuperJedi224 * (+27)
18:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41210&oldid=41120 * SuperJedi224 * (+17) /* G */
18:37:57 <elliott> I quite like the edit summary no https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=X%2B%2B&diff=prev&oldid=40155
18:38:00 <elliott> I think I was very tired for that
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18:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41211&oldid=41209 * SuperJedi224 * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
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18:42:25 <fungot> FireFly: all that means is that if a building? tornadoes? ghost ships! ships sent sailing and found drifting weeks or months or so, with some stranger's fingers in my mouth was full of cans of frozen concentrated juice at the grocery store, i'd miss tasting the inside, there's real organs!
18:43:04 <FireFly> eeh, if that's what you're into, fungot...
18:43:04 <fungot> FireFly: a bush. so that raises a good point, t-rex? that would be good to have you for dinner, t-rex
18:43:48 <fungot> FireFly: but that makes things worse than ever! everybody is going to be a surprise
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18:50:01 <J_Arcane> Hooray for native support for imaginary numbers ...
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18:59:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41212&oldid=41211 * SuperJedi224 * (+659) /* Sample Programs */
19:01:04 <fizzie> Hooray for good, logical argumentation at the Finnish Parliament regarding this citizen petition about allowing same-sex marriage: (paraphrasing) "It's not about equality. We don't have jurisdiction to change the laws of nature."
19:03:05 <Bicyclidine> parliament learns about bird reproduction, institutes new "it's not cheating if they're more than 50 meters away" rule
19:04:35 <fizzie> "It's obvious that the change would be detrimental to children's rights."
19:04:51 <fizzie> Most of the opponents are playing the "but think of the children" card.
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19:06:08 <nys> man for all the good finnish things..
19:06:49 <fizzie> (Adoption rights are one of the major things differentiating Finland's current "civil partnership" from marriage, that's why.)
19:10:20 <J_Arcane> The man I ordered a pizza from which never arrived this evening is apparently in the hospital with a neck injury sustained after someone struck him head on while he was delivering said pizza ...
19:10:51 <elliott> I hope the pizza was worth it
19:11:47 <J_Arcane> His brother just arrived with our pizzas and a free bottle of coke.
19:12:54 <elliott> a free bottle of coke for getting your deliverer in hospital
19:13:26 <J_Arcane> I just hope he's OK. He's a really nice guy, and he makes the best kebab in town.
19:13:54 <elliott> horrible strategy: pay people to hunt down and injure those delivering your pizza so you always get free stuff
19:13:57 <J_Arcane> My wife had to take the call, and she didn't have the heart to ask for a refund.
19:14:09 <elliott> neck injuries sound unpleasant
19:16:10 <fizzie> http://isometri.cc/strips/this_is_neck_crick/ yes
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20:22:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41213&oldid=41212 * SuperJedi224 * (+241)
20:22:27 <b_jonas> ais523: in case you missed it, the ioccc winners' name is out: http://www.de.ioccc.org/2014/whowon.html
20:22:45 <b_jonas> also the Underhanded C contest is open: http://underhanded.xcott.com/
20:22:56 <ais523> b_jonas: I noticed both, but thanks for the reminder
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20:46:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41214&oldid=41213 * SuperJedi224 * (+468)
20:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GridScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41215&oldid=41214 * SuperJedi224 * (+38) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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22:26:04 <elliott> does anyone know how long catching a SIGSEGV usually takes
22:26:20 <elliott> (from the invalid access to getting your SIGSEGV handler called)
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22:33:58 <Oren> depends greatly on OS and I think that is the kind of thing that would depend on processor model
22:34:12 <Oren> some processors can't even detect it...
22:35:46 <elliott> "modern x86 unix", I'm only looking for a rough estimate really
22:36:33 <elliott> I sort of suspect that using this to detect running out of a bump-allocator memory pool is a lot worse than just adding a branch to allocation unless running out is extremely rare, but I'm curious
22:37:12 <Oren> So then it depends on what the linux kernel does on interrupt vector number 13
22:38:02 <Bicyclidine> me, i use synthesis os, so i get forty thousand interrupts per second and it works,
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23:34:02 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> which is usually suffixed with (embed) <-- if you want people to follow conventions you should actually state them on the website hth
23:34:17 <fizzie> elliott: I have the vaguest feeling I actually tested the "trap sigsegv and fake 0" Befunge stack against a regular "test on every pop" stack, and... well, I think the signal handling was "pretty fast" in an absolute sense, but still of course orders of magnitude slower than a single test. (On the other hand, many Befunge programs never pop from an empty stack at all.)
23:34:55 <fizzie> I'm sure people have benchmarked Linux signal delivery overhead, though, which I'd guesstimate is the larger component, compared to the hardware side.
23:35:02 <elliott> fizzie: I'm wondering about it for, e.g., knowing when you're out of copying GC heap.
23:35:17 <elliott> I think collections in a generational collector are probably too frequent for it to pay off.
23:37:25 <oerjan> how many befunge programs test the depth of stack?
23:38:07 <oerjan> it might be easier to have a sizeable buffer of zeros preallocated
23:38:07 <FireFly> I imagine even if programs do pop an empty stack, they probably do it infrequently
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23:38:27 <oerjan> and have the depth test do a subtraction
23:39:50 <oerjan> then the sigsegv thing could bump that back up, causing a low average cost
23:42:02 <oerjan> there's that a* word i can never remember again
23:42:21 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if Mycology was the only real program that actually checked stack depth.
23:42:46 <oerjan> `learn_append oerjan He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
23:42:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'oerjan': Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
23:43:18 <oerjan> now i just have to remember that i put it there should be easy
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23:43:29 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
23:43:58 <Taneb> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
23:44:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'taneb': Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
23:44:33 <Taneb> Sounds about right
23:47:03 <oerjan> wait i thought i'd memorized that as 0.701something
23:48:01 <Taneb> There is sooomething that begins like that
23:48:10 <oerjan> oh that's approximately e of course
23:48:45 <oerjan> oh well my logarithms in the head are rarely more accurate than 0.7 anyway
23:49:24 <Taneb> My brother passed his driving test today :)
23:52:43 <Taneb> He is 60% of my nick
23:52:49 <oerjan> that's what i remembered
23:54:30 <oerjan> 0.30103 should be easy to remember
23:55:28 <FireFly> Not as easy as 2.718281828
23:55:35 <oerjan> hm that might have a large continued fraction coefficient
23:56:00 <elliott> how much faster is call compared to push + jmp? surprisingly google doesn't have an answer for this
23:56:08 <elliott> interested in the corresponding answer for ret, also
23:56:33 <oerjan> > 1/(1/logBase 10 2-3)
23:56:46 <oerjan> > 1/(1/(1/logBase 10 2-3)-3)
23:56:59 <oerjan> > 1/(1/(1/(1/logBase 10 2-3)-3)-9)
23:57:13 <oerjan> > 1/(1/(1/(1/(1/logBase 10 2-3)-3)-9)-2)
23:57:38 <oerjan> maybe it doesn't really show up as that. well 9 is fairly large.
23:58:05 <oerjan> > 1/(1/(1/(pi-3)-7)-15)
23:58:47 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
23:58:47 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M57241604867522287715068.show_M57241604867522287715...
23:58:47 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
23:58:47 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
23:59:16 <FireFly> [ <. (1 %@| ])^:(<20) 10^.2
23:59:16 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 3 3 9 2 2 4 6 2 1 1 3 1 18 1 6 1 7 1 1