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00:06:40 <|oren\> noise sensitivity eh. i have the opposite problem, i can't fall asleep in the country because it is too quiet and i need the sound of the city to put me to sleep
00:06:47 <oerjan> <|oren\> when goto is used wisely it pervents confusion <-- i think "pervent" is the perfect word for what happens if you try to use goto wisely
00:09:23 <|oren\> goto is actually a less confusing construct today because of the existence of editors that can search for the label.
00:10:33 <|oren\> (less confusing as compared to adding a new boolean variable)
00:11:14 <oerjan> i also think adding a new boolean variable may mean you've missed the point of avoiding goto
00:11:24 <|oren\> it pervents more confusion than it causes
00:11:47 <oerjan> (psst you did realize i was teasing about the misspelling, right?)
00:12:12 <|oren\> well from now on i'm spelling it like that every time. like biguate.
00:12:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: Mandatory spelling lessons in 1,2... | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:13:03 <Jafet> Shouldn't it be mbiguity
00:13:35 <|oren\> ambiguity->antonym = biguity
00:14:10 <oerjan> am- as a negative prefix almost makes sense but not quite.
00:14:18 <|oren\> but to be fair in modern greek the sound b is written mu beta
00:14:45 <oerjan> oh because beta is a fricative
00:15:43 <|oren\> guities can be bi, or ambi.
00:16:24 <oerjan> (that -o- has to be wrong)
00:19:03 <oerjan> if ambisexual means something different from bisexual than YOU GO TOO FAR
00:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i think CPT symmetry means you're having reverse sex with your antimatter twin?
00:21:09 <oerjan> that sounds hot. explosive, even.
00:23:30 <Solace> Bi means you like male and female
00:23:38 <Solace> Ambi means you like chairs?
00:24:06 <oerjan> i don't know that ambi- has anything to do with chairs
00:24:33 <oerjan> it's the latin word for "both"
00:24:54 <Solace> Semen has clocked in the scale for best cpu coolant next to artic silver
00:25:32 <oerjan> [citation ne...NO NO NO]
00:26:02 <oerjan> also what is artic silver
00:26:28 <Jafet> [unreliable source?]
00:29:21 <elliott> just gotta jizz all over my CPU to test
00:32:19 <Solace> I was just skimming a forum and thats all i saw
00:32:42 <Solace> Maybe thermite and blood makes a great coolant
00:32:58 <oerjan> forums are not reliable sources: world scientific community shocked
00:33:36 <Solace> Topic is set to that why?
00:33:48 <oerjan> because y'all need to learn to spell hth
00:34:10 <Solace> Eye sea watt yew did their oerjan
00:34:45 <Solace> Jk so like what is brainfuck and why does it look like garbage and syntax
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00:35:33 <oerjan> it was designed to have a very small compiler which means it needs to be extremely simple
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00:36:18 <oerjan> (unlike most other esolangs which look like garbage because most esolangers don't bother to invent parsing)
00:36:49 <Solace> The way you phrased that made me laugh
00:37:04 <vanila> Its hard to use BRINAFUKK
00:37:12 <vanila> beacuse it doesn't have procedures
00:37:21 <oerjan> ok some look like garbage because they're inspired by the others that do
00:38:05 <oerjan> (most commonly, brainfuck)
00:40:02 <myname> brainfuck looks like garbage? it's perfectly readable to me
00:41:12 <oerjan> brainfuck is hard because it's so low level that you have to implement almost everything from scratch, including any advanced data structures - you don't even have pointers or references.
00:41:36 <oerjan> and also because it has no real form of abstraction
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00:44:02 <Solace> I will never try my hand at that ._.
00:44:03 <oerjan> well that means it's more of a puzzle than actually useful
00:44:08 <elliott> vanila: is BRINAFUKK a bf derivative
00:44:32 <vanila> BRINAFUKK Is Not A BRINAFUKK Derivative
00:44:41 <oerjan> Solace: _many_ esolangs share those "features"
00:45:03 <myname> Solace: are you sure you are at the right place?
00:45:05 <Solace> Ill only use esolangs that have letters
00:45:50 <Solace> myname: yeh i am im usually afk doing stuff though
00:46:05 <myname> Solace: so a substitution of +-<>.,[] with idbfpcse is fine?
00:46:07 <elliott> vanila: BINABD. yep, those are the same letters as BRINAFUKK
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00:46:18 <elliott> Solace: you might like deadfish
00:46:32 <oerjan> Solace: i think myname is hinting that you seem to dislike the most common features of esolangs :P
00:46:48 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> brainfuck is hard because it's so low level that you have to implement almost everything from scratch, including any advanced data structures - you don't even have pointers or references.
00:47:12 <Solace> Nah not really its just like idk its name suits it well
00:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> brainfuck, i'd say, is more than anything else hard because it has no built-in nonlocal stuff at all
00:47:25 <Solace> Verbosefuck is probably what ill be good at
00:47:32 <myname> Solace: you should try malbolge
00:48:05 <Jafet> Yeah, it's hard to imagine anyone using anything resembling brainfuck as any kind of formal basis for computation
00:48:45 <Solace> I need esolangs you can actually implement large data structures in
00:50:00 <myname> Solace: how about funciton
00:50:06 <oerjan> Solace: you just think that because you didn't get his joke
00:50:42 <Solace> Ill check that out also myname
00:50:44 <oerjan> (hint: turing machines resemble brainfuck in most of the ways that make it awkward)
00:51:31 <oerjan> not entirely, but enough
00:51:45 <Solace> I remember when i didnt know how to remove piping
00:52:18 <oerjan> Solace: eodermdrome is nice, you should implement it
00:52:55 <Solace> i DONT know what eodermdrome is?!
00:53:37 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
00:53:54 <myname> Solace: it's pretty neat. all you have to do is solving an np hard problem every single step
00:54:31 <oerjan> Solace: you can implement large data structures in unlambda btw
00:55:46 <oerjan> i didn't say it would be easy hth
00:55:46 <Solace> Lets focus on one language at a time
00:55:59 <Solace> I have alot of time left
00:56:05 <oerjan> but it may still be easier than it most of the languages mentioned already
00:56:26 <Solace> Doesnt look terribly hard
00:56:49 <Solace> Is just kinda ehhh ok for me
00:56:57 <oerjan> i think unlambda was my first esolang, except for _probably_ having been exposed to parts of the INTERCAL manual at some point
00:57:24 <Solace> Anyways i have to dinner
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00:57:54 <oerjan> um first to discover, that is
00:57:58 <myname> mine was brainfuck. at a point where i didn't really were able to write code in normal languages
00:58:37 <myname> there was a website explaining it like a turing mashine
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03:25:11 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyprogramming/comments/2pxbr7/faster_inverse_square_root/
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03:34:51 * pikhq wonders why his stomach hurts
03:37:02 <oerjan> hidden eating utensils
03:37:23 <oerjan> ate too fast, swallowed fork
03:39:29 <pikhq> Y'mean I shouldn't have put tabasco on my fork and ate it?
03:39:39 <pikhq> But I thought I was being a culinary genius.
03:46:23 <J_Arcane> this morning I learned Racket's case doesn't support one-half of the typical behavior of case statements.
03:46:52 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/issues/10
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03:51:30 <Jafet> That's because the case syntax is cond.
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03:59:10 <CrazyM4n> That reminds me that I was learning lisp like a week ago
04:01:35 <elliott> J_Arcane: pretty sure that holds in standard scheme too?
04:01:53 <elliott> J_Arcane: your syntax is weird, it's ((1) 'foo) because you can also do ((1 2 3) 'foo) I think
04:02:06 <elliott> so it would "at least" be (((mod 5 2)) 'foo)
04:03:34 <elliott> scheme's case is disappointing though
04:03:35 <J_Arcane> Yes, you can. and that's a good point.
04:03:40 <elliott> it is not exactly pattern matching
04:03:57 <J_Arcane> Probably because it does have match, and case is evil C.
04:03:57 <elliott> I suspect racket probably has something for proper pattern matching
04:04:08 <elliott> nah, case is scheme heritage for racket, not C
04:04:09 <J_Arcane> Yes, Racket has a very powerful match statement.
04:05:22 <elliott> even supports pregnant expressions
04:07:16 <elliott> racket has a lot of nice stuff but I find it hard to see what its overarching philosophy is
04:07:43 <oerjan> wtf is a pregnant expression
04:07:51 <elliott> like a regular expression except pregnant
04:08:25 <elliott> you can match them with the pcre library (pregnancy-compatible regular expressions)
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04:13:06 <J_Arcane> Hah hah! I did it. I wrote an evaluating case statement. :D
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04:13:29 <elliott> does it differ much from using cond?
04:13:33 <CrazyM4n> I tried googling that and through an untimely slew of typos, google thought I wanted "pregnant expressional lips"
04:14:24 <J_Arcane> elliott: less verbose in some cases. IT came up because I was writing a "canonical" FizzBuzz for Heresy, and realized I couldn't use the case method (ie. 0 as val, and various (mod ...) calculations for the matching clauses)
04:14:55 <J_Arcane> And it turns out it is literally as simple as rewriting it without the extra ' around the matching values.
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04:21:38 <J_Arcane> (in Racket, the helper macro that handles the equal? literally just matches on (k ...) but then does (equal? v 'k) instead.
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05:13:08 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:14:05 <Sgeo> Remind me to get back into Racket so I can get back to that optics library
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06:29:59 <Solace> (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ﾟ. * ･ ｡ﾟ, *
06:31:41 <Solace> How do you stop xml stack overflows
06:34:08 <Solace> Thanks that fixed the problem
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09:36:35 <Jafet> Eodermdrome looks like it can be interpreted in polynomial time
09:37:01 <Jafet> (Each subgraph can have at most 26 nodes)
10:06:15 <myname> well, as long as you only allow lower case letter nodes
10:07:36 <Jafet> But programming would become too easy otherwise.
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11:18:45 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/abt_programming/status/546969469571325952
11:18:51 <ais523> Jafet: right, I intended to restrict it to 26 to keep things hard
11:18:55 <ais523> not sure if the spec actually achieves that, though
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11:28:38 <b_jonas> ais523: but doesn't that mean you can have only finitely many programs (say at most double exponential in 26) so you can't encode arbitrary data in the program itself, so it's technically not turing-complete?
11:28:52 <b_jonas> it's TC only if you're allowed to prefix a string to the input
11:29:07 <ais523> also I think you might be able to get up to triple exponential
11:29:14 <b_jonas> what's "curly-L-complete"?
11:30:07 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92
11:30:11 <b_jonas> triple exponential how? there's about 2**O(n**2) possible graphs and statements using n fixed letters,
11:30:24 <b_jonas> and a program is just a set of such statements
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11:31:05 <ais523> oh right, it's 2**(2**(n**2))
11:31:19 <b_jonas> you can have infinitely many programs because a statements can contain an arbitrary output string
11:31:20 <ais523> which is higher than double exponential I think?, but lower than triple exponential
11:31:31 <ais523> and arbitrary output strings won't affect the computational class
11:31:45 <b_jonas> exactly, it doesn't help making the language more turing-complete
11:32:08 <b_jonas> if you allow any number of letters, it is turing complete though
11:32:25 <b_jonas> and "efficient" too, in that it can simulate programs in polynomial time
11:32:34 <b_jonas> very slow polynomial, but still polynomial
11:38:14 <Jafet> In this case the construction of generalised Eodermdrome ("Geraliseodermdromen"?) is straightforward
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12:22:19 <J_Arcane> So in answer to my earlier puzzlement about Racket's (case ...) statement, apparently it has to do with performance details in how it compiles making it a lot faster if it's not allowed to do any calculation for the matching clauses at compile time.
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12:55:34 <mroman> !blsq 1Jq.+10C!CLq.+pa
12:55:34 <blsqbot> | {{144} ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! {144 89} ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! {144 89 55} ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! {144 89 55 34} ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments! {144 89 55 34 21} ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Inva
12:55:43 <mroman> !blsq 1Jq.+10C!CLq++pa
12:55:43 <blsqbot> | {144 233 288 322 343 356 364 369 372 374 375 376}
12:55:53 <mroman> !blsq 1Jq.+10!CCLq++pa
12:55:53 <blsqbot> | {1 2 4 7 12 20 33 54 88 143 232 376}
12:57:06 <mroman> !blsq 1Jq.+10!CCLqpdpa
12:57:06 <blsqbot> | {1 1 2 6 30 240 3120 65520 2227680 122522400 10904493600 1570247078400}
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13:46:10 <mroman> *Main> eval $ parseRC "({x.x}{y.y}z)"
13:49:11 <mroman> *Main> eval $ parseRC "({f.{x.{y.((fy)x)}}}{x.{y.x}}ab)"
13:49:12 <mroman> ((({x.{y.(a)}})(b))(a))
13:49:16 <mroman> this doesn't look right
13:54:53 <mroman> > (\f x y -> (f y) x)(\x y -> x)0 1
13:55:09 <mroman> but something is screewing up big time
13:56:36 <mroman> bound vs unbound variables
13:58:27 <Jafet> @let eval=let e s@(_:'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in(take 4 s++x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=snd.span(==' ');a(_:'\\':v:_:l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in fst.e$init l>>=f;a f x='(':f++" "++x++")" in fst.e
13:58:39 <Jafet> > eval "(((\\x. x)(\\y. y)) z)"
13:59:34 <mroman> *Main> eval $ parseRC "({f.{x.{y.((fy)x)}}}{x.{y.x}}ab)"
14:01:30 <Jafet> > eval "((((\\f. (\\x. (\\y. ((f y) x)))) (\\c. (\\d. c))) a) b)"
14:02:36 <mroman> > eval "((((\\f. (\\x. (\\y. ((f y) x)))) (\\x. (\\y. x))) a) b)"
14:03:13 <mroman> this doesn't check either that it must not replace the x in the second term
14:06:33 <Jafet> I wonder how many strokes is needed to implement that
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14:38:12 <mroman> at least now I have my own lambda calculus interpreter
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15:19:11 <J_Arcane> http://www.wired.com/2014/12/mathematicians-make-major-discovery-prime-numbers/
15:20:34 <vanila> Prime Numbers, which have previously only been hypothesized to exist were finally discovered in the wild.
15:22:06 <vanila> J_Arcane, there is way too much text in this, what result are they talking about?
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15:24:32 <J_Arcane> vanila: as best I could understand, it seems they've found a new proof for the gap between prime numbers.
15:25:13 <vanila> maybe his blog will explain it better
15:25:28 <vanila> Kevin Ford, Ben Green, Sergei Konyagin, James Maynard, and I have just uploaded to the arXiv our paper “Long gaps between primes“.
15:25:31 <vanila> http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2014/12/16/long-gaps-between-primes/
15:27:04 <vanila> so they are using graph theory ideas in sieving theory to get really good results on prime gaps
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17:17:42 <oren> i am now north of north bay.
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17:37:01 <int-e> oh wow, what's up with the C# entries for http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Base+37 ...
17:38:37 <int-e> (The whole output is just 659 bytes.)
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17:58:48 <elliott> vanila: it was actually a whole bunch of results http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes
17:59:32 <elliott> it's kind of amazing to see the comment threads, all these mathematicians just blasting through better and better bounds
18:00:11 <elliott> http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Timeline_of_prime_gap_bounds
18:03:51 <elliott> it's like in the movies where they get all the scientists to work together non-stop on finding a solution except it's pure mathematics :p
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18:05:26 <tromp_> it's number theory golfing
18:33:56 <vanila> this kind of math is intimidatingly difficult
18:38:17 <int-e> The "admissible sets" part (from k_0 to H) is actually fairly easy to understand. http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Finding_narrow_admissible_tuples
18:39:05 <int-e> But the analytic number theory (which produces bounds on k_0) is very scary.
18:39:13 <vanila> I feel sad that im not studying math
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18:50:22 <oren> vanila: what are you majoring in?
18:50:59 <oren> oh, yeah that;s right, you're still young!
18:51:28 <vanila> i did math in the past
18:51:32 <oren> whereas i'm apparently old compared to everyone except oerjan
18:53:31 <elliott> oren: is that deduction because before you're majoring, you're a minor
18:54:15 <oren> i never thought of it that way but yeah lololol
18:54:31 <elliott> (not exactly accurate but)
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18:56:43 <vanila> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/2m5gk3/terence_tao_is_going_to_be_on_colbert_report/ apparently tao has discovered a new prime
18:58:01 <elliott> following on the footsteps of grothendieck
18:58:34 <elliott> it's really cute when mathematicians know nothing about the elements of the sets they like
18:59:26 <oren> i was like "are twin primes the ones two numbers apart?"
19:00:19 <elliott> they're the ones born at the same time
19:01:12 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_prime I forgot this name =_=
19:02:13 <oren> Dang, i took a course in number theory and they didn't mention that? what a waste.
19:02:49 <oren> "sexyprime triplets"
19:03:55 <oren> knowing that there are such thing would be worth taking a course all on its own
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19:11:39 <oren> what does idris-bot do?
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19:44:11 <Phantom__Hoover> elliott, has it come to a conclusion of how much idris is worth yet?
19:44:41 <elliott> that joke is too bad to bother replying to, sorry
19:45:34 <fizzie> This is the general advice channel, right? What's a good standard included-in-Debian duplicate-file-detector thingie?
19:46:15 <fizzie> (I ran across 'fdupes', but possibly I'm missing something that didn't have the good sense to put "dup" in the package name.)
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20:07:08 <oren> what about diff -s *
20:09:00 <oren> no that doesn't work
20:23:31 <oren> well you can use cmp and a loop: for i in * ; do for j in * ; do if cmp -s -- "$i" "$j" ; then echo "$i $j" ; fi; done ; done
20:23:51 <oren> that will output each pair twice tho
20:23:52 <fizzie> I don't think that'd be particularly efficient for, say, a terabyte of files.
20:24:03 <CrazyM4n> That RNA language is soo tedious to make an interpreter for D:
20:24:13 <fizzie> I think I'll try to go with this fdupes thing.
20:25:04 <oren> actually my loop is buggy anyway
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20:31:51 <CrazyM4n> ;~; I'm 1/4th the way done typing the amino acids as a hash in ruby
20:32:35 <CrazyM4n> And it's taken like 5 minutes now D:
20:33:20 <CrazyM4n> Because 5 minutes is a long time that I should definitely be worried about.
20:33:39 <elliott> fizzie: "fdupes" is fun to say.
20:33:50 <elliott> fdupes. fdupes. faaadupes!
20:41:34 <oren> man the c standard library sucks
20:42:10 <oren> i forgot, again, that strrev is one of those functions i keep copying the code of from one project to another.
20:42:45 <CrazyM4n> If you want a good stdlib why not just use C++?
20:45:16 <oren> C++ strings don't have reverse either actually
20:46:49 <elliott> oren: you'd be better off avoiding nul-terminated strings entirely, really
20:47:08 <CrazyM4n> Just encode them as arrays of integers
20:47:15 <CrazyM4n> It's probably a better alternative
20:47:24 <elliott> how is that different from using pointer to char?
20:47:30 <elliott> or do you mean a fixed-size char array
20:47:59 <CrazyM4n> By the way oren: http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm/reverse
20:48:25 <CrazyM4n> elliott: It's really not, I'm just joking around
20:48:37 <nycs> strings should really just be opaque blobs
20:48:56 <oren> that oughta do it actually...
20:49:44 <oren> i'm just writing some single-use glue code to get these files to have better names
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20:50:15 <oren> why in C/C++ because i'm an idiot i guess
20:51:29 <oren> never mind this will never work
20:53:57 <nycs> any time you want to iterate or index into a string you should ask yourself "is this going to work with unicode?"
20:54:05 <nycs> 99% of the time the answer is going to be no
20:54:39 <CrazyM4n> Would it work with your opaque blob idea?
20:55:18 <nycs> you'd probably want to disallow those operations outright
20:55:57 <nycs> well, not iterating i guess
20:56:14 <nycs> i havent thought too much about this
21:02:33 <elliott> nycs: depends what you're iterating over
21:02:41 <elliott> codepoints, graphemes, characters are all reasonable possibilities
21:04:02 <zzo38> 99% of the time I want to iterate or index into a string I want it to treat the string as single-bytes encoding anyways, so it will work.
21:05:02 <zzo38> (And if it does contain Unicode characters, it often works fine to just treat the individual bytes as characters anyways)
21:09:32 <CrazyM4n> https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/9a85ded307dcde3ece5b it's... finally... done...
21:22:13 <oren> i have some copypasta somewhere that converts utf-8 to an array of coedepoints as ints.
21:23:27 <oren> i wrote it because some crap i wrote wasn't working with unicode
21:24:10 <oren> CrazyM4n: conglaturation!
21:25:45 <elliott> int isn't necessarily big enough to store unicode codepoints :P
21:29:52 <oren> elliott: yeah, yeah, yeah... anyway assuming an unsigned is big enough, this is the code: https://gist.github.com/orenwatson/b071c93b287604684e6a
21:30:05 <elliott> you know uint32_t exists, right? :p
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21:30:11 <elliott> > (length "uint32_t", length "unsigned")
21:30:30 <CrazyM4n> as someone who doesn't do C or low level stuff
21:30:35 <oren> yeah, i wrote this about 4 years a go tho
21:30:58 <oren> and it has been copypasted into various things
21:30:59 <elliott> anyway, this is comparable to the original plan 9 utf-8 implementation
21:36:43 <oren> technically this code doesn't convert to an array of ints, it returns one int at a time
21:37:36 <oren> yay for inconsistent ad-hoc apis
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21:51:47 <oren> hmm, could the lempel-ziv-welch compressor be turned into a programming language if some codewords instead altered the dictionary?
21:52:59 <oren> i have a shitty implementation of it just lying around..
21:54:25 <oren> like, maybe if we had a way to swap two existing codewords' definitions?
21:54:47 <vanila> what about conditionals?
21:56:01 <oren> hm... loops could be done by having a codeword to move N codewords back, but onditionals...
21:57:40 <oren> actually for maximum crappiness, let's have it be N bits instead of N codewords
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22:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nysnamovois * New user account
22:26:12 <vanila> Nysnamovois sounds like a spammer
22:33:44 <oren> as he hasn't psoted any spam yet
22:35:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spite]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41526 * Nysnamovois * (+426) create
22:36:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Nysnamovois]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41527 * Nysnamovois * (+5) Created page with "hello"
22:36:30 <vanila> you created a cool esolang
22:36:34 <nys> is it cool
22:37:31 <nys> if anyone wants me to uh explain anything
22:38:04 <nys> oh right <<> is like cdaar
22:38:50 <nys> i'm kinda spooked by the prospect of writing a curried function in it
22:40:07 <nys> oh shoot i forgot to add the minus symbol to the parser hold on
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22:41:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spite]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41528&oldid=41526 * Nysnamovois * (+0)
22:43:49 <oren> ok so as i understand it $ is the start symbol?
22:44:54 <oren> ohh, it means "apply"?
22:49:23 <nys> ^ is like "on" from Data.Function
22:49:34 <nys> (which i discovered by looking up its type)
22:49:40 <nys> er, `, not ^
22:49:48 <nys> ^ is composition
22:50:21 <nys> but i think of them as "computed application" and "literal application"
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23:01:17 <oerjan> arjanb: this channel is not big enough for both of us
23:02:12 <oerjan> (my search for my nick/name in the logs hits you as well)
23:03:54 <zzo38> Then use a better search
23:05:20 <oerjan> IE supports no beter ones
23:06:58 <oren> use a better browser hth
23:07:11 <oerjan> i think i'll just ban you all instead hth
23:08:37 <oren> use maxthon that is what i use on windows
23:09:23 <oren> maxthon cloud browser. b/c i'm soooo original and clever
23:10:33 <oren> it -is- pretty awesome to
23:11:15 <elliott> nys: this language looks cute
23:11:20 <oren> but unlike IE they didn't ruin it on win8
23:12:57 * arjanb waves at almost namesake
23:12:58 <elliott> did ie even change in win8
23:13:02 <nys> thanks elliot :D
23:13:08 <elliott> oh I guess there's the metro one but there's still the desktop version... (but why would you use IE)
23:13:34 <oren> because windows comes with IE.
23:14:19 -!- dts|pokeball has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:15:21 <oerjan> i don't want to change browser. i want the universe to stop continuously inventing new ways to annoy me while keeping most of the old ones.
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23:17:47 <oerjan> AND NOW IT'S DEPRIVING ME OF MY CHICKENS, THIS WILL NOT DO
23:17:59 <oerjan> (well, boily's chickens)
23:19:22 <oerjan> arjanb: hm do you come from #haskell? i recognize a similar nick from when i've read links from there
23:20:21 <oerjan> elliott: IT'S UNSTOPPABLE *MWAHAHAHA* HTH
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23:21:38 <oerjan> int-e: HOW DARE YOU RAISE MY HOPES
23:21:39 <int-e> I'm not paying attention, and I'm reading scrollback backwards, which does wonders to my perception of the context.
23:22:17 <oerjan> ah unstoppable chicken, very winslow
23:23:07 <oerjan> at least xkcd has updated
23:26:38 <int-e> Yes, it did. Hope the next one will be better.
23:27:12 <oerjan> it's better with less oxygen hth
23:29:00 * oerjan is slightly confused by people like ee who submit golf answers that are nowhere near competitive
23:29:13 <oerjan> i guess as long as they're having fun.
23:31:16 <int-e> oerjan: yes, strange.
23:31:56 <vanila> I wante to sove combinator puzzles like "find a fixed point"
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23:32:11 <vanila> find a term which applies to itself gives itself back
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23:32:34 <vanila> what would be the best way to program a search like that?
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23:32:51 <vanila> tromp_, but try to do it onl out of L terms
23:33:20 <oerjan> vanila: hm i had a combinatory logic question once, that i've never got answered: do the fixpoints of a value determine it? if not always, is there a model in which they do?
23:33:49 <oerjan> preferably a model generated by S and K
23:33:50 <vanila> I was thinking of converting from combinators to de bruijin and using some kind of algorithm to quickly test if they are equal (I know this is undecidable in general but I need to approximate it)
23:34:29 <vanila> like to test if m n equals m n' i ony need to test if n = n'? not sure if thats even true :/
23:34:49 <vanila> i suppose i could test n = n' as well as doing beta reduction to test m n = m n' in parallel
23:35:01 <elliott> it is, per leibniz, but maybe you mean something subtler than the obvious reading?
23:35:26 <vanila> oerjan, I can't really understand your question I think - doesnt' that there's multiple fixed point combinators mean you can't use fixed points to tell things apart?
23:35:47 <elliott> oerjan means, do the values x such that f x = x determine f
23:36:02 <int-e> oerjan: what do you mean by "fixed points of a value"? What are the fixed points of K and K K?
23:36:15 <elliott> as in, does {x | f x = x} uniquely determine f
23:36:15 <oerjan> the fixed point of K K is K, of course
23:36:45 <vanila> aren't the fixed points of Y and Theta the same?
23:36:53 <vanila> where Y and Theta are two different fixed point combinators
23:37:22 <elliott> well, you'd consider indistinguishable fixed point combinators equal
23:37:23 <oerjan> for K you have V (unlambda notation), i think all others are equivalent böhm tree-wise?
23:37:23 <int-e> oerjan: but neither K nor S have any fixed points.
23:37:27 <elliott> by functional extensionality, presumably
23:37:47 <oerjan> int-e: um every combinator f has a fixed point, namely Yf
23:38:16 <oerjan> of course you want beta-equivalence, probably eta.
23:38:22 <vanila> tthis is a really interesting question but does anyone know how to do what i wanted to do :[
23:38:43 <vanila> i mean what algormth should i use to quickly test if combinator/lambda terms are probably equal
23:39:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:BCompton]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41529 * BCompton * (+1031) Created page with "==Languages I Created== *[[StaPLe]] ==Languages I've implemented== *[[Brainfuck]] - Python *[[Befunge]] - Python *[[Whitespace]] - Python *[[Tag]] - Python *My Unreliable P..."
23:39:05 <int-e> reduce to normal form, hoping there is one.
23:39:24 <elliott> oerjan: hm, YKx is y = Kyx = _|_, so YK = _|_ and I guess YK is the only fixed point of K?
23:39:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:BCompton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41530&oldid=41529 * BCompton * (+3) D'oh!
23:39:48 <elliott> vanila: sorry, I have no idea :(
23:39:50 <oerjan> vanila: LLL might count as a solution dependent on your semantics, since it never halts
23:39:52 <vanila> so just reduce a limit of a million times?
23:40:16 <oerjan> elliott: YK is not _|_
23:40:21 <vanila> The Lenstra–Lenstra–Lovász (LLL) lattice basis reduction algorithm ?
23:41:13 <oerjan> vanila: LLL where L is the function you defined above
23:41:19 <int-e> vanila: Apparently there is a so called Gross-Knuth strategy for beta-reduction that is cofinal.
23:41:28 <vanila> the answer was ((L(LL))(L(LL)))((L(LL))(L(LL)))
23:41:31 <elliott> haha I thought LLL was some fancy equivalence-checking algorithm too
23:41:40 <oerjan> elliott: YKx = K(YK)x = YK
23:41:55 <oerjan> as i said, V from unlambda
23:42:00 <elliott> oerjan: how can you distinguish that from _|_, purely
23:43:07 <elliott> is there a reason to consider it any different to any other variation of "function that returns itself when given any argument" (_|_, YK, etc.)
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23:43:26 <elliott> it seems like you're staying YK isn't _|_ because it returns YK, not _|_ :p
23:43:39 <int-e> elliott: Depends on your model. In a term model, clearly those are not equivalent.
23:43:53 <elliott> are they equivalent with the usual denotational semantics?
23:44:27 <vanila> A strategy F is cofinal if whenever M->>N there is an n with N->>F^n(M).
23:44:52 <vanila> I don't really understand this
23:45:04 <vanila> i mean how does this apply to the equality test problem?
23:47:16 <int-e> Hmm. True that's not enough to make F^n(N) and F^m(M) have commone elements if N and M are equivalent.
23:48:35 <vanila> i know the problem is undecidable but i just want to be able to quickly verify claims like (KBB(SSS))SBS satisfies xL = xx or whatevr
23:48:45 <vanila> or return 'i dont know'
23:48:59 <oerjan> elliott: i suppose it's consistent for YK and _|_ to be equal.
23:49:26 <vanila> and i would implement it in C maybe, so it's efficient
23:49:40 <elliott> oerjan: to be fair it's consistent for everything to be _|_
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23:50:00 <oerjan> elliott: well modulo S /= K
23:50:16 <oerjan> which is a minimal distinction
23:50:42 <oerjan> elliott: i mean, if S = K then everything is _|_, so if you want something nontrivial just assume S /= K
23:51:33 <oerjan> of course there are other similar pairs.
23:51:42 <oerjan> but YK vs. _|_ may not be one.
23:52:32 <elliott> I mean I feel like to distinguish two terms you need to show some application of them that differs in some way other than one having x and one having y
23:52:33 <oerjan> i guess i mean consistent in a way similar to logic's "not everything is equivalent"
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23:52:53 <elliott> though even that rule isn't enough for me, since you can make a series F_0, F_1, ... s.t. F_n x = F_(n+1) I think
23:53:06 <vanila> elliott, so to show that f =/= g, you need to show that f x =/= g x ?
23:53:22 <elliott> vanila: for some x, yes, that would be my criteria
23:53:38 <elliott> and appealing to f =/= g for the f x =/= g x case doesn't seem very convincing to me, personally
23:53:41 <vanila> but to show that f x =/= g x dont I have to show that f x y =/= g x y?
23:53:56 <elliott> vanila: you know that S =/= K
23:57:57 <int-e> elliott: you can do so quite brutally: let f n x = f (n+1) in f 0, so Y (\f n x -> f (n+1)) 0, with church numerals, and abstraction elimination
23:58:40 <elliott> SII =/= I because SIIK = IK(IK) = K(IK) and IK = K, and K(IK)I = IK = K but KI = KI, and KI = KI but KII I'm not geting anywhere near
23:58:53 <elliott> let's just assume it's true
23:59:00 <oerjan> Y K = K (Y K) = \x -> Y K which is a weak head normal form but not a head normal form i think...
23:59:20 <vanila> there's this thing used in lisp programming sometimes called SXHASH
23:59:22 <oerjan> and it has no head normal form, so if you go by requiring that...
23:59:39 <vanila> I wonder if there's something similar, a nontrivial hash of de brjuin terms which doesn't change when you perform a beta reduction