00:00:02 <oerjan> unfortunately wikipedia's article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_normal_form is too crappy to define the latter precisely or even mention the former
00:00:25 <oerjan> oh wait maybe it does define the latter
00:01:42 <int-e> Hmm, there's a concept called "contextual equivalence": M and N are contextually equivalent, if C[M] has a normal form if and only if C[N] does, for all contexts C.
00:02:47 <vanila> http://tarpit.github.io/TarpitGazer/gallery.html
00:02:49 <oerjan> weak head normal form does not allow the initial lambdas afair/u
00:04:36 <oerjan> (and all the top google hits for it are about haskell)
00:06:01 <oerjan> "The term was coined by Simon Peyton Jones to make explicit the difference between head normal form (HNF) and what graph reduction systems produce in practice."
00:07:02 <elliott> peano arithmetic is inconsistent therefore every term is equal, thanksa nd you're welcome
00:07:09 <int-e> Oh, I didn't know that SPJ coined that. Interesting.
00:07:14 <elliott> *thanks and (I can prove that the original sentence actually had no error)
00:07:23 <oerjan> from the foldoc article, which manages not to mention haskell otherwise :P
00:07:46 <int-e> elliott: You what? Did you prove that 0=1?
00:08:25 <int-e> (At least that answer was consistent...)
00:14:01 <int-e> oerjan: Well, I read that as "I proved it, and I also disproved it."
00:14:37 <int-e> Mathematics will not tell us whether that was the intended meaning.
00:14:39 <elliott> I can prove that it was inconsistent.
00:15:58 <oerjan> this may be my fault, i've been threatening elliott with an afterlife where logic doesn't exist hth
00:16:23 * int-e fails to see the threat and runs away in panic.
00:16:40 <oerjan> it wasn't on-channel hth
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00:16:59 <int-e> but now it's meta-on-channel
00:17:01 * elliott doesn't consider that a threat
00:17:16 <oerjan> but you also _do_ consider that a threat, right?
00:17:41 <oerjan> (i may not actually have expressed it as a threat)
00:18:24 <int-e> oerjan: Maybe absence of logic also means absence of truth and falseness (falsity?), and therefore your question doesn't make any sense.
00:19:35 <int-e> in fact your sentence may be indistinguishable from rnad qjnf cnbbdaas eowelhfvcdsa wqq fjdsbncww ...
00:20:21 <int-e> (all I see is letters; soon it'll be pixels.)
00:20:52 <oerjan> / _ \ | |/ / / \\ \ / /
00:20:52 <oerjan> | | | | | ' / / _ \\ V /
00:20:52 <oerjan> | |_| | | . \ / ___ \| |
00:21:51 -!- int-e has set topic: Symbols devoid of meaning | but often spelled correctly. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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00:59:04 <vanila> I want to make a GUI for editing 2d progarms
00:59:18 <vanila> it will need to be able to drag boxes around and have the wires connecting them move along with it
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01:09:28 <zzo38> What kind of 2D programs? It depend what kind.
01:10:46 <vanila> the language is called '2d'
01:10:57 <vanila> i can post an example program
01:11:48 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/117043
01:12:01 <vanila> inputscome from north and west, outputs are east and south
01:12:10 <vanila> a box is triggered if it has all inputs
01:13:20 <vanila> its hard to program in because of the editing...
01:13:26 <vanila> but if i had a nice GUI editor it would be ok
01:16:27 <vanila> so i want to make an editor..
01:16:35 <vanila> but i think that would be a ot of work
01:24:28 <elliott> that language looks really pretty
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01:51:17 <nys> here's integer division in spite
01:51:21 <nys> ^^`<.;k:p^-;>>>> >><`<;<;><;>><;^+;>>><k1^-;>>>> >>< >>>.;<;>;k0<
01:52:07 <nys> 99 bottles here i come
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01:55:57 <elliott> nys: I love how programs look
01:59:23 <nys> it's lots of fun to program with
02:00:43 <nys> because of the prefix syntax
02:01:22 <nys> so i can just kinda trace along with my finger and say "ok this is the part that does one iteration but i need it to recurse instead"
02:01:58 <nys> and then just tack on another function in front of it to do that
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02:08:26 <int-e> Where'd the Werebear go?
02:09:17 <oerjan> bear? i thought it was a sparkhound
02:09:34 <oerjan> assuming you're referring to tybalt
02:10:01 <int-e> Oh. Yes that makes more sense.
02:11:02 <int-e> (Just noticed that nobody intervened in the attack on Martellus *this time*.)
02:11:35 <oerjan> the bears haven't shown up at the fortress yet. i expect that will be interesting.
02:12:15 <int-e> Ah the train will smash them and then the Dreen will get the train.
02:12:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spite]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41531&oldid=41528 * Nysnamovois * (+0) added positive predicate function
02:13:40 <int-e> (I sort of like the idea of pitting the Dreen against that metal-eating engine, now.)
02:15:53 <int-e> Actually we don't even know whether the bears or the Dreen are fiercer.
02:15:55 <oerjan> it cannot be a proper magnet battle without wolkerstorfer, surely.
02:16:04 <int-e> I'm just *assuming* it'll be the Dreen.
02:16:47 <int-e> Is that singular or plural anyway?
02:17:11 <int-e> Maybe a single one is a Dree?
02:17:49 <oerjan> they used the word "Dreen" when the single one showed up at mechanicsburg, although with no article
02:18:07 <elliott> nys: you don't document how to actually do IO btw
02:18:29 <nys> i have a hello world :D
02:18:51 <oerjan> also given that this dreen was found in the fortress vault, who knows who if anyone it's loyal too.
02:18:54 <nys> that doesn't show the I but it does show the O
02:19:14 <oerjan> if it's even alive, i was assuming it was disabled somehow since they passed it without event
02:19:21 <nys> i've tried a bit of both input and output but it's weird
02:19:44 <oerjan> (the ones seen before were obviously working for wulfenbach)
02:20:09 <int-e> oerjan: It was clearly alive and lurking, hth.
02:20:32 <int-e> And maybe the Dreen are actually peaceful.
02:20:40 <int-e> "clearly" <-- to my mind.
02:28:40 <oerjan> hm it does seem a bit hard to explain the two pictures of the dreen without it moving.
02:29:56 <int-e> Also the eyes(?) glow, and I'd expect them to go dark when the Dreen dies.
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04:11:32 <J_Arcane> Racket apparently *does* have a (case ...) like I was looking for; http://docs.racket-lang.org/mzlib/mzlib_etc.html#%28form._%28%28lib._mzlib%2Fetc..rkt%29._evcase%29%29
04:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spite]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41532&oldid=41531 * Nysnamovois * (+326) 99 bottles of beer on the wall (almost)
04:14:51 <nys> read it and weep
04:16:55 <J_Arcane> http://pasterack.org/pastes/29552
04:17:52 <J_Arcane> nys: that reminds me that I really wanna port Heresy to Haskell or F# in the near future. I started working through a book on doing a Lisp in C, but it's not strictly faithful to Lisp.
04:20:39 <J_Arcane> Doesn't use linked lists, which makes standard head and tail work weird, but that's not the weirdest part, which is the "Q-expressions". Rather than support the usual 'quote form and macros, it implements a special kind of list syntax with curly braces that is ignored at the interpreter level.
04:23:28 <elliott> to be fair that is an idea so weird that it was in original lisp
04:24:14 <nys> elliott, can you tell me if mathematica's syntax is essentially m-exprs?
04:24:40 <elliott> well, mathematica's syntax is like prolog or whatever.
04:24:50 <elliott> M-exprs are defined by their equivalence to s-exprs, I feel
04:24:55 <elliott> mathematica operates on its terms directly
04:25:26 <elliott> also mathematica has weird infix operators and lambda syntax and stuff
04:26:20 <J_Arcane> elliott: I suppose no one is so clever as they think. At least not with McCarthy and the AI Lab as competition. ;)
04:26:40 <J_Arcane> (the author of BYOL seems to think he invented them)
04:27:12 <zzo38> Actually those kind of "Q-expressions" are also something I would have wanted to use once
04:28:00 <glguy> elliott: You might find this interesting. http://lpaste.net/117041 I can use Yoneda in order to fuse fmaps in lens composition to enable GHC generics to optimize away
04:28:04 <nys> that description of them reminds me of MDL
04:28:16 <J_Arcane> Honestly, it's not a terrible idea. Quote/quasiquote etc. are one of the weirdest concepts in Lisp for a beginner, and at first feel more like something you're fighting with than helps you.
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04:28:41 <J_Arcane> (at least until you learn the magic of `(,templating))
04:28:44 <elliott> glguy: that sounds cool! I'll take a look later
04:29:03 <zzo38> Quote/quasiquote operators will still help too even if you have Q-expressions, I think
04:30:01 <J_Arcane> zzo38: True, you probably at least still want an explicit function for converting data to and fro q-exps. I haven't got far enough yet to see how it's handled.
04:31:54 <elliott> J_Arcane: oh, I see, it's an alternative to quote.
04:31:58 <elliott> that's not quite like m-exprs then
04:32:02 <elliott> I think clojure does something like that though? or something
04:33:18 <J_Arcane> elliott: It might, somewhere. Clojure has so many inane weird little syntaxes for things I wouldn't be surprised.
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05:20:06 <J_Arcane> (require mzlib/etc)(for([n(in-range 1 101)])(let([% modulo])(displayln(evcase 0((% n 15)"FizzBuzz")((% n 5)"Buzz")((% n 3)"Fizz")(0 n)))))
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05:43:25 <Solace> How do you turn amino acids into hash for ruby CrazyM4n?
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06:27:15 <Solace> Data charts are a nuisance
06:29:48 <Solace> Gasp thats some pretty code oren
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07:04:41 <Solace|datastuff> God dammit why does everything break when i try and do something
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07:53:39 <Solace|datastuff> Whats the best way to stress test your server without breaking it
07:54:32 <lifthrasiir> took it into the lava, it won't break (but it will melt)
07:55:08 <glguy> Host content on it and post to Google+
07:56:23 <glguy> Yeah, that probably wouldn't be enough to stress anything...
07:57:18 <lifthrasiir> Solace|datastuff: seriously, I think "without breaking it" part is redundant. the goal of stress testing is to determine its "normal" operating range and test the graceful failure when its load exceeds that "normal" range.
07:58:40 <lifthrasiir> if your server breaks rather violently after some number, then it should be visible from your stress test I think
07:59:32 <lifthrasiir> oh, is it a physical server (not a server software)?
08:00:52 <Solace|datastuff> The data relay is fine im just wanting to see how much data it can process before shutting down
08:01:12 <glguy> You're talking about stressing the hardware a LA memtest86+ ?
08:05:55 <elliott> if you permanently lag your server for the rest of time by flooding it with packets that's kind of impressive
08:07:19 <elliott> glguy: that ghc generics thing is cool
08:07:34 <elliott> I can't imagine actually wanting to handwrite those last lenses though
08:07:52 <elliott> btw, how come that generic iso isn't already in GHC.Generics.Lens?
08:07:53 <glguy> That was a demo. You can automate that
08:08:18 <glguy> It's type was too restrictive
08:09:11 <Solace|datastuff> infinite loop packets into the server? turns off when my heart stops?
08:09:39 <glguy> The fusion can help lenses in general, helps GHC generics a lot
08:09:43 <glguy> http://lpaste.net/116931
08:11:53 <glguy> Or you can genetically generate more interesting lens http://www.galois.com/~emertens/tries/Trie.hs
08:12:53 <glguy> Like a new trie type for any ADT along with a corresponding "at" lens
08:13:15 <glguy> Without generics overhead ^_^
08:13:28 <glguy> I'm just exploring the space right now
08:14:51 <glguy> My phone confused generic and genetic
08:15:18 <oerjan> genetic space exploding
08:21:18 * glguy wipes some of the spilled excitement up and goes back to idling
08:22:48 <elliott> glguy: so when is deriveLenses going to use this :p
08:24:14 <glguy> When I have a personal level up and wrap my head around a way to make type changing lenses easy to generate this way
08:24:55 <glguy> I can do them ugly like the first code I shared or automatic like the second with no type change
08:36:37 <mroman> surfing the web with flash deactivated is sooo comfortable
08:37:02 <mroman> no lags due to flash ads that try to render 3d shit and what not
08:37:17 <mroman> you can actually smoothly scroll now on certain websites
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09:07:09 <zzo38> Or even just don't install Flash and then they won't try to render 3D and music and stuff because it can't.
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09:18:31 <zzo38> Many people have different opinions of IAU making their 2006 definition of planets not including Pluto, including: astronomers, other scientists, astrologers, song writers, etc. What are your opinions?
09:22:46 <zzo38> How would you intend to do it?
09:24:28 <lifthrasiir> Pluto is less planety than (say) Earth but more planety than most asteroids?
09:24:55 <zzo38> A proper definition would still be required though.
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09:41:22 <zzo38> No, the sun is a star.
09:41:28 <mroman> Why is it not a planet?
09:41:32 <mroman> It's round for all that matters.
09:41:46 <zzo38> Yes, it is round. I don't know all of the details.
09:42:04 <mroman> I'd classify every sufficiently round object as planet.
09:43:08 <mroman> So actually the earth is a moon of the sun.
09:43:15 <mroman> and the moon is a sub-moon of the sun
09:43:23 <mroman> because it's a moon of the earth which is just a moon of the sun.
09:43:25 <zzo38> mroman: I have thought of things like that too actually
09:43:47 <zzo38> Although it might not be correct?
09:43:57 <jslave> planet means 'wanderer'
09:43:57 <jslave> planet means 'wanderer'
09:44:16 <mroman> Jupiter is a gas planet, the sun is a urm... hot glowing planet?
09:44:29 <jslave> planet means 'wanderer'
09:44:32 <zzo38> Yes, and that is also a very old definition, where the objects they saw in the sky which aren't "fixed stars" are called planets, so it does includes Sun/oon.
09:45:05 <zzo38> Some astrologers have said they want to omit Pluto from a horoscope because the IAU no longer considers it a planet. That is a silly reason! Even if it is not a planet, it still has coordinates! Anyways, horoscopes nearly always include Sun and Moon, which also aren't planets. A good reason to omit Pluto might be if there are too many lines and you want to remove some to simplify the horoscope, such as if you do not need to plot that data.
09:45:09 <mroman> "A star is a massive, luminous sphere of plasma held together by its own gravity. "
09:46:17 <zzo38> Yes, a star does do that; it emit light, makes nuclear fusion, etc
09:46:24 <zzo38> And the planets go around it (if there are any).
09:46:49 <mroman> I mean, it _does_ make absolute sense to classify planets by some of their properties.
09:46:57 <jslave> also, there are more objects, even bigger than pluto in the cuiper belt - all those would need to become planets.. they didn't like it
09:47:06 <mroman> isn't the moon bigger than pluto?
09:47:39 <mroman> and yes, there are many objects larger than pluto that aren't planets (yet)
09:47:41 <jslave> ah yes.. planets also orbit stars
09:47:50 <mroman> but there are planets that don't orbit stars
09:48:53 <mroman> An exoplanet or extrasolar planet is a planet that does not orbit the Sun and instead orbits a different star
09:49:14 <mroman> "A rogue planet, also known as an interstellar planet, nomad planet, free-floating planet or orphan planet, is a planetary-mass object that orbits the galaxy directly. "
09:50:07 <mroman> what says there can't be planets that orbit another planet
09:50:22 <mroman> a rogue planet that has moons with sub-moons
09:50:32 <mroman> or a rogue planet that has moons
09:50:34 <jslave> astronomers do... and screw them! pluto is a planet
09:50:50 <mroman> so they don't orbit a star
09:51:01 <mroman> they orbit a planet that doesn't orbit a star either
09:51:34 <mroman> `quote halting problem
09:51:36 <HackEgo> 498) <oerjan> theorem prover yada yada halting problem. \ 630) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
09:51:42 <HackEgo> 768) <mroman> You can't quote me. \ 1139) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend \ 1218) <mroman_> Rule of thumb is that if I can understand it you're not using enough fancy stuff \ 1221) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
09:51:50 <zzo38> I agree it make sense to classify planets by some of their properties.
09:51:56 <mroman> Since I don't believe in bottom I can believe anything I want.
09:51:58 <jslave> except those living on earth maybe
09:52:06 <zzo38> A property may include their orbits.
09:52:08 <mroman> Therefore, there are rogue planetary systems orbiting galaxies.
09:52:32 <mroman> which don't have a star at the center but a rogue planet.
09:54:07 <jslave> zzo38: i think there was also another criterium: planets need to be round
09:54:27 <zzo38> jslave: Yes; I was only listing some of them, but there may be others.
09:54:39 <zzo38> However, it is also possible that some of the criteria aren't very good.
09:54:55 <jslave> they are not named pluto
09:55:32 <mroman> jslave: not round but they have to have enough mass for gravity to do that weird named thing
09:56:15 <mroman> they need to be in "Hydrostatic equilibrium"
09:56:46 <mroman> I don't know what that means
09:56:53 <mroman> I just know that planets have to be that
09:57:04 <mroman> I have no idea what hydrostatic equilibrium actually is
09:57:26 <mroman> "In continuum mechanics, a fluid is said to be in hydrostatic equilibrium or hydrostatic balance when it is at rest, or when the flow velocity at each point is constant over time. This occurs when external forces such as gravity are balanced by a pressure gradient force.[1] For instance, the pressure gradient force prevents gravity from collapsing the Earth's atmosphere into a thin, dense shell, whereas gravity prevents the pressure gradient force from diffu
09:59:01 <mroman> Everything is a fluid with enough pressure I guess?
10:00:05 <jslave> with less pressure..if
10:01:24 <mroman> can you make a rock fluid by using...
10:02:05 <mroman> I'm so not into physics.
10:02:17 <jslave> neutron stars are pretty solid iirc.. more density..less movement ..more solid.. at least that's my intuitive conclusion
10:03:29 <mroman> I imagine them as stars solely consisting of neutrons
10:03:37 <mroman> no electrons, no protons
10:04:40 <jslave> let's have temperature.. the lowest temp -273° is wehen the lightest atom (hydrogen) is not moving anymore (it becomes solid)
10:05:16 <jslave> there are no upper boundaries to temp. so everything gets fluid or even plasma
10:08:19 <jslave> but you're right.. pressure affects the temp. needed to switch aggregate state
10:08:26 <Jafet> Neutron stars are "solid" due to pauli exclusion
10:08:39 <zzo38> There are then also black holes and possibly other stuff that you don't know.
10:09:14 <mroman> Didn't some paper just recently claim that black holes don't exist?
10:12:53 <jslave> related: http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/bf/1f/29/bf1f2950b73d662f7695a7d132e537f5.jpg ;)
10:14:45 <Jafet> The universe is actually one big planet
10:15:07 <mroman> The what is our universe orbiting?
10:15:54 <mroman> also we know for almost certain that god created the earth
10:16:41 <mroman> what we don't know is if he intented pluto to be a planet or a dwarf planet.
10:16:46 <zzo38> mroman: Extremely indirectly, I think. But that has nothing to do with deciding what is considered a planet and how to figure out stuff by science and so on.
10:17:40 <Jafet> Pluto doesn't exist; it's all greenscreened
10:18:48 <zzo38> I doubt it, but I don't know 100% sure really
10:19:47 <jslave> cmon.. we don't want to fall back into that intellectual scheme..do we?
10:19:54 <mroman> does the bible actually say that god made the moon?
10:19:58 <mroman> or did the moon come naturally
10:19:59 <zzo38> Into what intellectual scheme?
10:20:21 <mroman> also there's no mentioning of him creating hell
10:20:22 <zzo38> mroman: I don't know, but it doesn't matter.
10:20:24 <mroman> just heaven and earth.
10:20:43 <zzo38> But if you are interested, you can look it up!
10:20:50 <mroman> I'm trying to look it up
10:21:01 <mroman> but it's so hard to find sources that look serious enough to be taken serious
10:21:17 <Solace|zzz> Heaven and hell could exist in other universes
10:22:27 <mroman> well.. at least it says here
10:22:30 <zzo38> Skeptics Annotated Bible includes the full King James version (which isn't a very good version, but it is what is commonly used) except deuterocanonical/apocryphal books, and is full of cross-references and external links; you can also use a search function.
10:22:32 <mroman> we should rule the animals
10:22:45 <mroman> so I guess it's ok to eat animals and make them do whatever we want them to do.
10:22:48 <zzo38> Solace|zzz: What does string theory have to do with that exactly?
10:23:43 <jslave> other universes are an invention of scientists having difficulties to explain the well balanced properties of our universe
10:24:17 <zzo38> mroman: Well, the Bible is book like any other books really. It isn't worthless; it is still a book. But, it isn't the only book, nor does it mean you should believe everything you can read.
10:24:20 <mroman> Maybe there are universes with even more well balanced properties.
10:24:38 <mroman> we just think our universe is perfect when there could be even more perfect ones.
10:24:59 <jslave> maybe thre is milk with 13,7% fat
10:25:09 <mroman> zzo38: yes, and everybody reads a translation of the original one that has gone under modifications over time
10:25:21 <zzo38> Of course human is omnivore so yes we can eat animals but, that doesn't mean you should make them do whatever you want them to do and do bad thing.
10:25:25 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, that too.
10:25:32 <mroman> which has actually been studied very well. It's known that some texts barely resemeble the original ones.
10:25:53 <zzo38> mroman: Which I also know. It is certainly something to study!
10:26:13 <zzo38> jslave: Yes I know that thing about other universe that scientists propose for such reasons.
10:26:29 <jslave> are you talking about apocryphs?
10:26:59 <mitchs> i believe everything i can't read
10:27:05 <zzo38> I believe that "mathematics is the real reality", so really any mathematically possible universe are mathematically exist. The physical existence is just an instance of such.
10:27:39 <mroman> Wouldn't one rather say that mathematics just describes what we can observe
10:27:43 <mroman> for some values of observe
10:28:07 <mroman> or that it describes what we could observe based on what we already observed
10:29:27 <jslave> i'm not sure if you have an idea of how well balanced the values of every constant is.. change the weight of an electron by 0.0001% and the universe is crap
10:31:05 <zzo38> No, mathematics can also describe things that are impossible to observe. Also, not all mathematics can be studied, due to our limitations of universe and other things. To describe what is observed is scientific, and mathematics can be used to describe it scientifically, based on what is known. The true mathematics of universe is possibly unknowable and/or uncomputable and/or nondeterministic.
10:31:08 <mroman> but who says other universes actually have electrons.
10:31:32 <zzo38> Define electrons in the context of other universes!
10:33:36 <mitchs> i observed the set of all sets last week but forgot to take a picture
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10:34:44 <Jafet> Did you at least obtain a preimage?
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10:39:09 <jslave> the set of all sets you say.. that reminds me of leibniz' monadology
10:39:34 <mitchs> i tried to, but my precamera case was stuck and i couldn't get it clopen
10:40:07 <jslave> you know leibniz? it's a german cookie distributor..
10:40:26 <jslave> but also a famous mathematician..
10:41:42 <jslave> i hope you like cookies
10:42:59 <oren> Solace|zzz: i was asleep when you posted that but thanks! lol "C utf-8" ... "pretty code" ... lololol
10:46:25 <jslave> okay..thanks for playing
10:48:57 <oren> wow did this channel actually just have a religious discussion?
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10:51:36 <jslave> religious? let's say esoteric.. scindere et re.ligio
10:53:47 <oren> other universes moght be defined in terms of a different logic than the one that seems to govern ours
10:55:04 <oren> for example in another universe the axiom of choice might be true
10:56:47 <mitchs> in other universes, mother russia makes jokes about you
10:56:47 <oren> so in another universe i might be able to have as many birthday balloons as i want, provided a sphere-duplication machine
10:57:24 <b_jonas> there's a fast approximation for the permanent of a matrix with non-negative elements only, and this result is from 2004?
10:57:28 <b_jonas> I totally haven't heared about this
10:57:35 <b_jonas> why did nobody tell me this?
10:57:46 <b_jonas> or more likely they did, I just didn't listen
10:58:05 <jslave> in another universe they may have told you
11:01:04 <jslave> in another universe.. they share information! completely different logic you know? you probably came to the wrong place
11:01:37 <b_jonas> fungot: in which other universes did they tell you that the permanent of matrices with nonnegative entries is easy to approximate?
11:01:37 <fungot> b_jonas: i mean, there's nothing i've noticed in sisc), you must have been tough
11:03:11 <b_jonas> fungot: for arcane casters, which one is easier, levitating themselves, or levitating another monster with similar weight?
11:03:11 <fungot> b_jonas: it's the if true part, not many things are you devising now?
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11:10:52 <jslave> fungot: i'm a better bot than you! i can be programmed live ..right here in the irc-channel ;)
11:10:52 <fungot> jslave: that cannot be smoothed out by some macros are allowed to
11:17:50 <oren> b_jonas: in Final Fantasy they can't do either, you can only fly by getting the airship from Cid hth
11:24:16 <oren> or in FF7 the rocket ship damn that game was awesome.
11:27:39 <jmaster> .var cxg = function(text) { wpost("http://cxg.de/paste.php", {'lang':'auto','pastetext': text} ).then(function(response) { result = response.match(/http:\/\/cxg\.de\/.*\.htm/); console.log(result); }) }
11:27:56 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_69201b.htm
11:29:30 <jmaster> .cxg(wget("http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/s"))
11:29:31 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_596b3f.htm
11:31:15 <fungot> jmaster: he *is* alive." block expr; everyone i was 7. o only pushes one value onto o, fnord... fnord... :(
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11:33:16 <jmaster> .fungot.insult = function(text) { text = text || "thanks."; console.log("fungot: " + text); }
11:33:16 <jslave> jmaster: function (text) { text = text || "thanks."; console.log("fungot: " + text); }
11:33:16 <fungot> jmaster: i am a bot you fools! ha ha ha
11:33:16 <fungot> jslave: damn low-level.... and that gave them a special look and feel
11:34:14 <oren> is this a bot loop?!
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11:36:55 <jslave> jmaster: http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=REPL&btnI=1
11:37:33 <Taneb> jmaster, a bot-loop is when two or more IRC bots get stuck talking to eachother
11:37:48 <Taneb> In an infinite loop
11:38:10 <jmaster> well..than it's not a botloop
11:38:29 <Taneb> Does jslave evaluate J?
11:38:52 <Taneb> Ah, so it's sort of JSslave
11:39:09 <oren> key is not to make any bots that respond to fungot with a line including fungot's name
11:39:10 <fungot> oren: people have visited fnord, fnord and a decent ide could trivially exploit this to provide the syntax-case level of metaprogramming.
11:39:52 <Taneb> Hmm, I think that used to work?
11:39:59 <Taneb> fungot has a list of bots to not respond to
11:39:59 <fungot> Taneb: i mean, the c preprocessor ;p) has example graphs.). assembly language reminds you at very instruction.
11:40:15 <fungot> jmaster: but they return a procedure from a record definition. but be aware that you're not, heres your ugly solution: define a macro
11:40:19 <b_jonas> um, what language is that?
11:40:21 <Taneb> And fungot will stop responding temporarily if someone says "fungot" in too many lines in quick succession
11:40:21 <fungot> Taneb: girls is evil and at the last line is so long it's about as related to towers of hanoi. thanks. :) but... it's still booting... i don't know
11:40:21 <fungot> jmaster: makes sense.) i look forward to it. just download it, but there's no nil in scheme,
11:40:35 <fungot> jmaster: yes i did. the freebsd box hasn't got any chance :d" " there it goes again..." " they live"
11:40:45 <Taneb> I am pretty sure this channel is at least 10% bot
11:40:54 <b_jonas> is it javascript/ecmascript?
11:41:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:41:11 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
11:41:22 <Taneb> Hmm, 7.5% actually
11:41:24 <Jafet> Now fungot's in a botloop
11:41:24 <fungot> Jafet: i know i didn't know that you've already asked, but then i need to enter " qemu" to edit is the ordinary ( for call/ cc))) hangs
11:41:26 <jmaster> taneb.. are you the author of fungot?
11:41:26 <fungot> jmaster: and that is? you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote."
11:41:34 <Taneb> jmaster, no, I am not
11:41:36 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
11:44:17 <jmaster> my basic idea was to provide an adapter to bind webservice APIs to a bot with a single bot function
11:44:55 <jmaster> so everyone could develop on any system.. with whatsoever
11:45:22 <b_jonas> jmaster: um, so how does this work?
11:45:43 <jslave> jmaster: function (text) { wpost("http://cxg.de/paste.php", {'lang':'auto','pastetext': text} ).then(function(response) { result = response.match(/http:\/\/cxg\.de\/.*\.htm/); console.log(result); }) }
11:46:03 <jmaster> i defined just this script above
11:46:30 <jmaster> like var myfunc = function(arg1, arg2) { /*do stuff here */ }
11:47:42 <jmaster> (async http post) wpost(url, postvars).then(function(result) { /*when ready and got response -- erm --do sth with response */ })
11:47:56 <jmaster> knowing that u can call most apis
11:48:24 <b_jonas> um, ok, and is there some persistent state?
11:48:57 <jmaster> yes.. i'm working on it.. i believe it has worked already.. but than i crapped it..but!
11:49:23 <jmaster> you define and test your function in global scope
11:50:03 <jmaster> if working ..you move the function into the well structured and persistent scope ..which is .fn
11:50:13 <jmaster> call .bind() -----------------------------> ready.
11:50:29 <jmaster> next restart all objects in fn get reloaded
11:50:45 <b_jonas> and can you show an example of the web api thingy working?
11:50:47 <jslave> jmaster: (object)imgur, radio(), (object)gallery, $(), help(), girls(), (object)lamb, (object)db, read(), init()
11:50:57 <Jafet> .console.log('hi')
11:51:17 <Jafet> .var x = new XMLHttpRequest(); x.open('GET', 'httsp://esolangs.org', false); x.send(null); console.log(x.responseText)
11:51:17 <jslave> Jafet: [Exception] undefined
11:51:43 <Jafet> .var x = new XMLHttpRequest(); x.open('GET', 'http://esolangs.org', false); x.send(null); console.log(x.responseText)
11:51:44 <jmaster> .var x = function() { new XMLHttpRequest(); x.open('GET', 'httsp://esolangs.org', false); x.send(null); console.log(x.responseText) }
11:51:44 <jslave> Jafet: <html> <head><title>302 Found</title></head> <body bgcolor="white"> <center><h1>302 Found</h1></center> <hr><center>nginx/1.2.1</center> </body> </html>
11:52:46 <b_jonas> um, that's only a redirect
11:53:08 <jmaster> jafet.. because http get requests are so usual u can just use wget()
11:54:06 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_432508.htm
11:54:28 <jmaster> it works: it's a pastie site built by a droog
11:54:52 <jslave> jmaster: function (text) { wpost("http://cxg.de/paste.php", {'lang':'auto','pastetext': text} ).then(function(response) { result = response.match(/http:\/\/cxg\.de\/.*\.htm/); console.log(result); }) }
11:55:20 <Jafet> .setTimeout(function(){console.log('hi')}, 1000); setTimeout(function(){console.log('hi')}, 2000)
11:55:20 <jslave> Jafet: [object Object]
11:55:55 <jmaster> wget is sync now.. and wpost async ..that's why u need this .then() shizzle (see Promises mdn)
11:56:06 <jslave> jmaster: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/search?q=Promise
11:56:47 <b_jonas> jmaster: are there also commands to listen to irc or talk on it?\
11:57:32 <Jafet> This is like leaving a tank on the road with the hatch open
11:58:04 <b_jonas> Jafet: exactly. ideal for #esoteric.
11:58:21 <jmaster> i am mad showing you those.. but it's build for a cooperative policy
11:58:39 <jmaster> like..some friends develop sth together
11:59:47 <jmaster> i've spent like 10 hours making it.. all that while learning node.. and javascript :))
12:00:00 <jmaster> so there's a few more things to do on the module site
12:01:50 <b_jonas> jslave: console.log("xaxabimufeivomuzecixavaireijaudauxavopafeiregainogaibirevojaurejaugainosoci")
12:02:10 <b_jonas> jslave: .console.log("zesofeifeibinodaugaivairevaifeisomureipaxareivairesoxavaigaipavovoresoxagaivai")
12:02:17 <Jafet> .fs.stat('.', function(a, b) { console.log(utils.inspect(b)) })
12:02:17 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] fs is not defined
12:02:19 <b_jonas> I wonder if it can respond to anything not starting with a dot
12:02:48 <b_jonas> ( http://www.xkcd.com/604/ )
12:02:48 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: "!!",
12:02:59 <Jafet> .require('fs'); fs.stat('.', function(a, b) { console.log(utils.inspect(b)) })
12:02:59 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] require is not defined
12:03:17 <jmaster> b_jonas: it does.. in query you don't need a prefix
12:03:32 <jmaster> but i can set the prefix as i want to
12:03:46 <jmaster> mostly trying not to be in conflict with other bots
12:03:57 <b_jonas> sure, I was just wondering if it could respond to its nick
12:04:08 <jmaster> also u can use -- to make jslave answer in privmsg
12:04:16 <Jafet> .console.log(os.type())
12:04:16 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] os is not defined
12:05:08 <jslave> jmaster: dmp(), (string)from, (string)to, (object)bot, (object)json, (object)net, (object)http, jQuery(), XMLHttpRequest(), xhr(), (object)util, prettify(), setTimeout(), (object)res, (object)imgur, read(), (object)delicious, (object)search, Promise(), (object)sandbox, run(), getGlobal(), dispose(), dump(), (object)fn, bind(), wget(), wpost(), pastebin(), exec(), (object)console, (object)jslave, heapdump()[..] readmore:
12:05:08 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_8c366d.htm
12:05:47 <jmaster> the cool thing is: it will paste the result autmatically if respnse longer than: defined max
12:06:34 <jmaster> you see it's not very well structured yet
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12:06:58 <jmaster> the idea is to structure fn with more thoughtful
12:07:09 <jmaster> as it's meant to be persistent
12:08:29 <jslave> jmaster: [TypeError] Cannot read property 'paste' of undefined
12:08:42 <jslave> jmaster: [object Object]
12:08:49 <jslave> jmaster: [object Object]
12:08:53 <jslave> jmaster: function (text) { wpost("http://cxg.de/paste.php", {'lang':'auto','pastetext': text} ).then(function(response) { result = response.match(/http:\/\/cxg\.de\/.*\.htm/); console.log(result); }) }
12:09:18 <jmaster> (which doesn't work yet..but probably later today;)
12:10:43 <jmaster> fn.api.paste.cxg <- this is just a spontanous structure ..probably not good too... but if you seen a framwork with namespaces u got the idea
12:11:31 <jmaster> u will have a string ns, a net ns, a db ns, or whatever
12:12:21 <Jafet> Note that HackEgo already runs arbitrary code, with persistent state
12:12:51 <jmaster> .. can i code it via irc too?
12:12:51 <jslave> jmaster: [SyntaxError] Unexpected token .
12:13:07 <HackEgo> jmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:13:15 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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12:27:42 <jmaster> darn ..i need to buy some xmas presents today
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12:29:14 <jmaster> i can't prevent endless loops yet.. that's a major vulnerability ..it happens quick even without intention
12:29:30 <jmaster> so any suggestions on that are welcome
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12:29:44 <b_jonas> jmaster: just do it the proper but unpopular way and make the bot send only NOTICEs and listen only to PRIVMSGs
12:30:56 <jmaster> notice != privmsg iirc..also how would this make the bot stop the loop?
12:31:31 <b_jonas> it prevents loop because bots don't reply to the NOTICE you send. it's like a ttl of 1 effectively.
12:31:53 <jmaster> it's really nasty ...it runs so quick even the flood protection on another server was fucked
12:33:11 <jmaster> <b_jonas> it prevents loop because bots don't reply to the NOTICE you send. it's like a ttl of 1 effectively. <-- i doubt this
12:33:25 <Jafet> Add flood protection, then.
12:34:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: x.toString(): not found
12:34:39 <oren> oh crap weather today = "sleet". "Sleet"!
12:34:47 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] type is not defined
12:35:12 <jslave> jmaster: [RangeError] Maximum call stack size exceeded
12:35:22 <Jafet> .var xx = setInterval(function() { console.log('hi') }, 1000)
12:35:22 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] setInterval is not defined
12:35:37 <jmaster> b_jonas' suddendeath function
12:36:19 <jmaster> .var xx = function() { /*code here*/}
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12:36:47 <jmaster> else it expects a return value to assign
12:36:52 <Jafet> .var xx = [null]; function f() { console.log('hi'); xx[0] = setTimeout(f, 1000) }; f()
12:37:05 <Jafet> .clearInterval(xx[0])
12:37:05 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] clearInterval is not defined
12:37:08 <oren> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
12:37:10 <Jafet> .clearTimeout(xx[0])
12:37:10 <jslave> Jafet: [ReferenceError] clearTimeout is not defined
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12:37:38 <Jafet> Sorry, I assumed it could be cleared.
12:37:54 <jmaster> you can stop this by assign a stop condition in the function
12:38:44 <b_jonas> .for(var m=6;m-->0;)console.log(m)
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12:38:49 <b_jonas> .for(var m=6;m-->0;)console.log(m)
12:39:15 <jmaster> it's very cool it runs async functions in the background ;)
12:40:35 <jmaster> for(var m=6;m-->0;)console.log(m) <-- never seen that notation ..nice
12:40:55 <b_jonas> you're on #esoteric, you'll see worse
12:41:23 <oren> it is actually a -- and a > it is not a downto operator.
12:41:36 <oren> but yeah seen that trick before
12:41:37 <myname> oren: yeah, but i like that name
12:42:22 <b_jonas> so there is persistent state. good.
12:43:07 <jmaster> but as i said.. i will make it work as good and as soon possible
12:43:29 <Taneb> Could you use cookies or something to get more persistent state?
12:45:11 <jmaster> .mongodb.find({gender: 'm', $or: [{nationality: 'english'}, {nationality: 'american'}]}, 'people') // .find(where, collection)
12:45:11 <jslave> jmaster: [ReferenceError] mongodb is not defined
12:45:17 <jmaster> .mongo.find({gender: 'm', $or: [{nationality: 'english'}, {nationality: 'american'}]}, 'people') // .find(where, collection)
12:45:17 <jslave> jmaster: [object Object]
12:45:18 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_4ff711.htm
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12:47:42 <jmaster> .mongo.insert({ first: "fun", last: "got", dob: "06/01/1996", gender: "m", hair_colour: "blonde", occupation: "bot", nationality: "irish"}, 'people')
12:47:42 <jslave> jmaster: Collection: peopleCount: = 10
12:49:09 <jmaster> mongo.find({first: 'fun'}, 'people') // .find(where, collection)
12:49:16 <jmaster> .mongo.find({first: 'fun'}, 'people') // .find(where, collection)
12:49:17 <jslave> jmaster: [object Object]
12:49:17 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_647437.htm
12:50:32 <jslave> jmaster: { '0': { '_id': { '_bsontype': ObjectID, 'id': Tdmfx&h_, 'toHexString': function () { if(ObjectID.cacheHexString && this.__id) return this.__id; var hexString = ''; for (var i = 0; i < this.id.length; i++) { hexString += hexTable[this.id.charCodeAt(i)]; } if(ObjectID.cacheHexString) this.__id = hexString; return hexString; }, 'get_inc': function () { return ObjectID.index [..] readmore:
12:50:33 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_c440b9.htm
12:53:22 <jmaster> .eval("var test = function() { console.log('it works too!') }") //never tried this
12:53:28 <jslave> jmaster: it works too!
12:54:04 <jmaster> so theoretically u can store code in the db
12:55:02 <jmaster> if the admins here get mad i'll say it is all Taneb's fault
12:55:53 <Jafet> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
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12:57:09 <Taneb> `run echo "Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since." > wisdom/persistence
12:57:14 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
12:57:37 <Taneb> `run echo < wisdom/tanebventions
12:57:38 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
12:57:41 <Taneb> `run echo < wisdom/tanebvention
12:57:47 <Taneb> `run cat wisdom/tanebvention
12:57:49 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, and this sentence.
12:57:50 <vanila> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_%28Keymaker%29
12:58:19 <Taneb> `run echo "Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence." > wisdom/tanebvention
12:58:28 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
13:02:14 <jmaster> .paste(wget("http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2014-12-23.txt")
13:02:14 <jslave> jmaster: [SyntaxError] Unexpected end of input
13:02:30 <jmaster> .paste(wget("http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2014-12-23.txt"))
13:02:33 <jslave> jmaster: http://cxg.de/_272f46.htm
13:04:18 <jmaster> .mongo.insert({date: date(), server: "irc.freenode.net", channel: "#esoteric", content: "http://cxg.de/_272f46.htm"}, "irc_logs")
13:04:18 <jslave> jmaster: [ReferenceError] date is not defined
13:04:24 <jmaster> .mongo.insert({date: Date(), server: "irc.freenode.net", channel: "#esoteric", content: "http://cxg.de/_272f46.htm"}, "irc_logs")
13:04:25 <jslave> jmaster: Collection: irc_logsCount: = 1
13:04:55 <jmaster> the cool thing about mongodb is: it does everything for you
13:05:10 <jmaster> no need to create tables or stuff
13:05:33 <jmaster> just take an object..and push to any collection..done
13:05:44 <jmaster> at least that's the basic functionality
13:06:14 <jmaster> u can do things more complicated (which is what you probably want to do _here_ :P)
13:06:45 <jslave> jmaster: https://www.npmjs.com/package/mongodb | mongoDB API | Documentation: http://mongodb.github.io/node-mongodb-native/ | Tutorial: http://code.tutsplus.com/tutorials/getting-started-with-mongodb-part-1--net-22879
13:07:52 <jmaster> this is a religious channel...isn't it? ..good.
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13:13:46 <jmaster> PS.: i'm also avaible for children-parties
13:14:39 <oren> doyou bring your own red nose and makeup?
13:15:50 <jmaster> i'm glad we all agree plut is a planet
13:20:09 <oren> it wanders through the sky, so it is a planet. checkmate.
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13:43:55 <jmaster> Taneb: clearTimeout will work upon next restart.. i had to allow this function in the sandbox
13:46:27 <jmaster> and thanks.. i did not know about this function yet^^ i'm a level2 js-noob (attack: 12 / defense: 9 / grey-hair: 23)
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14:21:24 <oren> Do any varieties of lisp allow unicode names?
14:21:41 <vanila> https://github.com/jterrace/js.js/
14:21:50 <vanila> js.js is a JavaScript interpreter in JavaScript. Instead of trying to create an interpreter from scratch, SpiderMonkey is compiled into LLVM and then emscripten translates the output into JavaScript.
14:21:57 <vanila> oren, I think they all should
14:23:11 <oren> J_Arcane: Ok good.
14:24:36 <J_Arcane> It even has a macro that maps λ to lambda (and a shortcut for it in Racket).
14:25:21 <oren> Now, i'll make a macro from 【】 and （） to [] and () respectively...
14:26:07 <J_Arcane> Good luck with that, I still haven't made sense of writing custom readers for Racket yet ... ;)
14:26:19 <oren> And then create a chinese #lang that can by typed entirely in chinese character IME
14:37:04 <J_Arcane> At last, Heresy now has actual docs: http://jarcane.github.io/heresy/heresy.html
14:46:22 <J_Arcane> I actually want to write a proper guide for it at some point.
14:46:32 <J_Arcane> But at least now there's a function reference.
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14:48:59 <J_Arcane> I wonder if I should write a brainfuck in Heresy. That's like the rule right? the first non-trivial anything in a language is always a brainfuck?
14:52:08 <tromp_> http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/a_brainfuck_monad/
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15:06:29 <oren> there brainfuck in chinese hyh
15:07:57 <oren> hyh = hope your happy
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15:09:32 <vanila> no one ever asked for a chinese version fo brainfuck
15:10:51 <oren> vanila: well they still got one hthyh
15:12:02 <oren> also i cant figure out readers in racket either
15:15:26 <J_Arcane> Part of why heresy uses #lang s-exp instead of being a pure #lang, is because to do that you have to do a bunch of stuff with providing a reader and what not
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15:21:01 <myname> as a none native speaker: i don't get why people confuse you're/your, it's/its and their/they're
15:21:50 <oren> i know how to do it proply i just dont care hope your're happy.
15:25:17 <b_jonas> myname: as a none native speaker, you'll never now
15:25:39 <myname> b_jonas: you are trolling
15:26:03 <oren> and i did your're on purpos
15:27:52 <MDream> Well, they often don't learn by writing.
15:27:57 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
15:28:24 <myname> but from watching porn?
15:28:34 <MDude> By hearing people talk.
15:29:01 <oren> MDream: i am a native speaker, and msot native speakers don't care at all about these rules, we just care if we are understood
15:29:51 <MDude> But it wouldn't matter if we cared if we intuited it well enough to do it without really caring.
15:29:55 <myname> if you are not american you can go on, everybody will say it's because americans are stupid :D
15:30:41 <MDude> I'm maximum american.
15:30:58 <oren> canada is the bestest country in whole wold
15:31:43 <oren> why? maple buttertarts that is why
15:35:15 <jmaster> btw: I cnduo't bvleiee taht I culod aulaclty uesdtannrd waht I was rdnaieg. Unisg the icndeblire pweor of the hmuan mnid, aocdcrnig to rseecrah at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mttaer in waht oderr the lterets in a wrod are, the olny irpoamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rhgit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whoutit a pboerlm. Tihs is bucseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey l
15:36:12 <myname> that's not entirely true
15:36:14 <jmaster> wlohe. Aaznmig, huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghhuot slelinpg was ipmorantt! See if yuor fdreins can raed tihs too.
15:36:22 <myname> at least not language independent
15:36:55 <jmaster> maybe mandarin doesn't work
15:37:17 <myname> people have a hard time reading words with ordered letters
15:37:19 <oren> well mandarin has some words with two characters
15:37:37 <oren> but most of those a different when rearranged
15:37:56 <jmaster> first and last letter stay the same
15:38:11 <jmaster> anyway.. ca m'est egalement
15:38:24 <myname> first and last letter is in place
15:38:32 <oren> in japanese too: 社会:society 会社:corporation
15:38:37 <myname> it is still unreadable, at least in my opinion
15:39:14 <nys> [citation needed]
15:39:25 <myname> also: iamnoprtt is way less readable than irpoamtnt
15:39:53 <myname> i don't think the order doesn't play any role
15:40:41 <oren> well for japanese the order defiantly matters
15:41:43 <myname> oren: can you read caaeilltprr?
15:42:04 <oren> consider 分かりましたvs分りましかた
15:42:32 <oren> myname: i can't
15:43:27 <oren> ohhh... yeah some orders screw with my head more i think
15:44:09 <myname> that's exactly my point
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15:48:51 <oren> and some cant be biguated: sont snot
15:49:19 <oren> i guess context helsp
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15:49:45 <myname> people cite the same text over and over again
15:49:52 <oren> cigoto egro sum
15:50:02 <myname> and think "hey, i can read this, so it has to be true that the order doesn't matter"
15:52:07 <oren> but can an abrtriay txet be srcewd up and rbleessad?
15:57:08 <jmaster> lol.. you just because i can read it doesn't mean i can read it
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15:59:55 <b_jonas> "reblessed" doesn't have an "a"
16:00:23 <b_jonas> and only scalars can, hash keys can't
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16:02:19 <jmaster> yes.. don't try this at home.
16:02:37 <int-e> msot wrods are shrot.
16:03:16 <myname> in german you can make arbitrary long words
16:03:34 <int-e> I also read somewhere that it helps a lot if you only exchange tall letters with other tall letters and short ones with short ones, keeping the "skyline", so to say, intact.
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16:04:01 <myname> but you cannot change letters at will
16:04:03 <int-e> myname: I know. But we generally don't do that :)
16:04:43 <int-e> the Dampfschifffahrtskapitänsmützenbandsortiermaschine is a joke ;-)
16:06:05 <int-e> But Sonnenfleckenhäufigkeit isn't.
16:06:22 <myname> relative luftfeuchtigkeit
16:07:23 <int-e> Anyway I still don't know whether "rbleessad" was a typo or not.
16:08:02 <jmaster> it's more difficult to write them wrong anyway.. i just supported oren's statement: "we just care if we are understood".. so brave ;>
16:09:24 <int-e> usually it's just a few letters getting shfited a bit forth or back, not a random permutation.
16:10:55 <int-e> the internet anagram finder suggests "beardless" as the sole (english) single word anagram of "rbleessad"
16:12:03 <int-e> and "sad rebels" is nice.
16:13:34 <int-e> (at least for this season)
16:14:54 * Melvar had a look for the longest word in his proto-thesis, it’s “Assoziativitätsdeklaration”.
16:15:17 <b_jonas> oh, out of memory. that explains why the computer wouldn't respond
16:17:47 <int-e> jmaster: I read too much of fefe's blog to not recognize that one.
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16:26:40 <Melvar> The longest non-programming-specific word in it is “höchstwahrscheinlich”.
16:27:27 <Melvar> ^scramble höchstwahrscheinlich
16:27:48 <Melvar> Oh. It tore up the ‘ö’.
16:29:10 <int-e> "interrelationship" is a long english word.
16:30:14 <int-e> "lexicographical" is one I use fairly often
16:30:35 <Melvar> @let scramble = concat . (_last %~ reverse) . transpose . chunksOf 2
16:30:54 <Melvar> > var $ scramble "höchstwahrscheinlich"
16:31:54 <J_Arcane> I think I am going to need a better documentation situation in the long term.
16:32:24 <J_Arcane> Having to switch branches and manually copy the damn HTML file every time it changes just so it will show in the URL on gh-pages is a pain in the ass.
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16:42:58 <mroman> german words can be as long as you want them to be
16:43:28 <mroman> Messlattenständerfabrizierungsanlagenkäufer is a perfectly reasonable word
16:43:55 <mroman> Geldvernichtungsmaschinenhersteller
16:43:55 <myname> heizölrückstoßabdämpfung is a great word for losing at hangman
16:44:38 <mroman> Heizölrückstossabdämpfungshaltevorrichtungsfabrikant
16:45:03 <myname> the point in my word is that nearly every letter exits in it
16:45:28 <J_Arcane> hmm. I can't write scramble in Heresy yet because I still haven't included a random number generator. and I'm not sure I want to do that right now because then I'd have to update the docs again ...
16:45:38 <mroman> Heizölrückstossabdämpfungsextrakt.
16:46:12 <mroman> Heizölrückstossabdämpfungsextrahierungsrythmus.
16:46:21 <mroman> but that's not so much sense making I guess
16:46:35 <mroman> A german knows what it means
16:46:50 <mroman> He just might have never heard of something like that :D
16:47:09 <mroman> also you'd usually rephrase that as
16:47:25 <mroman> Der Rythmus der Extraktion von Heizölrückstossabdämpfungen
16:48:40 <mroman> chönt me joh grad no e abverheiters wort erfindä.
16:49:05 <mroman> and that concludes my opinion about that in swiss german .
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16:58:12 <mroman> "I'm not willing to go much further by hand. "
16:58:23 <mroman> I guess that *totally* makes sense for a wiki article
17:00:09 <mroman> are there pseudo-quines
17:00:48 <mroman> it's not really a quine
17:01:00 <mroman> it just pretends to be quine by producing output that is a quine
17:01:04 <mroman> however, the actual program is not a quine
17:01:15 <mroman> a pseudo-quine prints a quine
17:01:31 <mroman> which.. as I'm saying it out loud
17:02:17 <mroman> for example there's a PHP web-page that prints it's own source code
17:02:27 <mroman> and you can verify that the source code it gave you actually is a PHP quine
17:02:38 <mroman> but that doesn't mean that it actually IS the source code of that PHP web-page
17:02:51 <mroman> it might just be $quine=..; echo $quine;
17:03:22 <mroman> Let's call that a Level-1 pseudo-quine
17:03:30 <J_Arcane> Does implicit print break the rules of quines?
17:03:32 <myname> i do think that indeed is pretty lame
17:03:42 <mroman> a Level-N pseudo-quine can (randomly) choose to produce any of N quines;
17:04:01 <mroman> $quines[0]=...;$quines[1]=...; echo $quines[rand(2)]; something like that
17:04:16 <myname> i mean, you go all the way to make a real quine just to write a program that prints it, but is longer than the quine itself
17:04:51 <mroman> in a sense a pseudo-quine *generates* a quine
17:05:03 <mroman> the output of a pseudo-quine is a quine
17:05:27 <J_Arcane> I mean, the stereotypical Lisp "Hello World" seems to also be a quine, for the same reason: The implicit print means a bare literal is both the source and the value to be printed: "Hello world."
17:05:28 <mroman> it's a pretty lame thing
17:05:40 <mroman> It sounded cool for a second
17:06:04 <newsham> http://codepad.org/SQ1i0eie
17:09:35 <mroman> a program that given an Input I finds the longest common substring of I and it's own source-code
17:10:07 <mroman> which makes it a quine when fed its own source-code
17:10:43 <mroman> that sounds a little bit less lame
17:12:45 <mroman> impressive @third order quine
17:13:15 <mroman> it must work for all inputs of course
17:13:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41533&oldid=41507 * BCompton * (+0) /* Pascal */ Bad variable name
17:17:25 <mroman> if input were xech it has to print "ech"
17:18:00 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN
17:18:00 <blsqbot> | {"c" "e" "h" "ch" "ec" "ech"}
17:18:03 <int-e> @tell oerjan Oh this may be useful for Haskell golfing: If you ever need Data.Bits, you can import Foreign instead. (It also exports Data.Int and Data.Word)
17:18:12 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)sB
17:18:12 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (sB)!
17:18:12 <blsqbot> | {"c" "e" "h" "ch" "ec" "ech"}
17:18:15 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)sb
17:18:15 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (sb) Invalid arguments!
17:18:15 <blsqbot> | {"c" "e" "h" "ch" "ec" "ech"}
17:18:23 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suINL[Cmsb
17:18:23 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (sb) Invalid arguments!
17:18:23 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
17:18:28 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)Cmsb
17:18:28 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (sb) Invalid arguments!
17:18:28 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.+) Invalid arguments!
17:18:35 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)cmsb
17:18:36 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (sb) Invalid arguments!
17:18:44 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)cMsb
17:18:44 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (sb) Invalid arguments!
17:18:44 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (cM)!
17:19:00 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN(L[)CMsb
17:19:00 <blsqbot> | {"c" "e" "h" "ch" "ec" "ech"}
17:19:09 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN[-
17:19:09 <blsqbot> | {"e" "h" "ch" "ec" "ech"}
17:19:12 <mroman> !blsq "echo $_GET['input'];"su"xech"suIN[~
17:19:47 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (f5)!
17:19:47 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (x6)!
17:20:07 <b_jonas> what's the syntax for variable assignment these days?
17:20:12 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 20):
17:20:16 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (f5)!
17:20:16 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (x6)!
17:20:22 <b_jonas> oh, it just doesn't like hex
17:20:23 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
17:20:25 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
17:20:30 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
17:20:40 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (r:)!
17:20:40 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (va)!
17:20:55 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
17:21:05 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mz)!
17:21:05 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (Ta)!
17:21:10 <b_jonas> um, what how do I retrieve?
17:21:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (z4)!
17:21:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (am)!
17:21:18 <mroman> !blsq %Tamz45=166 %Tamz45?
17:21:28 <mroman> !blsq %Tamz45=1662593013 %Tamz45?
17:21:33 <b_jonas> !blsq %Tamz45=1662593013 %Tamz45?
17:21:35 <b_jonas> !blsq %Tamz45=1662593013 %Tamz45
17:21:35 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mz)!
17:21:35 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (Ta)!
17:21:42 <mroman> %foo= is set, %foo? is get, %foo! is eval
17:22:01 <b_jonas> but there are shortcuts for a few variables, right?
17:22:04 <b_jonas> !blsq %Tamz45=1662593013 %Tamz45?
17:22:23 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (f5)!
17:22:23 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (x6)!
17:22:29 <b_jonas> how do I enter hexadecimal?
17:23:19 <b_jonas> what's the syntax for pop and store to variable?
17:23:37 <jslave> int-e: [SyntaxError] Unexpected identifier
17:23:37 <mroman> <value> <key> sv for set-var
17:23:51 <mroman> !blsq 166 "0x166"sv "0x166"gv
17:23:55 <mroman> !blsq 1661 "0x166"sv "0x166"gv
17:23:59 <int-e> oh. this will continue to happen
17:24:07 <int-e> jslave: what are you?
17:24:11 <jslave> int-e: invoke commands - public: -cmd(args); / private: _cmd(args) or in query just cmd(args); | $(): global scope/see all objs/cmds; $(obj): see obj-properties; console.log(txt): reply to channel/user; .fn: protected scope(never overwrite!); .fn.init() run on botstart; dump(obj): returns obj-code as string; bind("name", "code"): .fn["name"] = code - use to bind code permamently! see more: http://hagb4[..] readmore:
17:24:12 <jslave> int-e: http://cxg.de/_ed209c.htm
17:24:13 <b_jonas> mroman: no, I mean pop the _value_ from stack, not the variable name
17:24:14 <mroman> but blsqbot doesn't store the variables fore more than one query :)
17:25:00 <b_jonas> !blsq "631927f5"b6 %Tamz45=vv %Tamz45
17:25:01 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (mz)!
17:25:01 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (Ta)!
17:25:03 <b_jonas> !blsq "631927f5"b6 %Tamz45=vv %Tamz45?
17:25:06 <jslave> int-e: [ReferenceError] version is not defined
17:25:09 <jslave> int-e: [ReferenceError] about is not defined
17:25:11 <jslave> int-e: [SyntaxError] Unexpected token .
17:25:22 <mroman> !blsq "631927f5"b6 "Tamz45"sv %Tamz45?
17:25:27 <mroman> that's all there currently is
17:25:33 <b_jonas> int-e: takes javascript input
17:25:38 <int-e> . is an awful prefix.
17:25:38 <jslave> int-e: [SyntaxError] Unexpected identifier
17:25:42 <mroman> %foo=x is parse-time stuff
17:25:52 <b_jonas> mroman: hmm. could you add a syntax for runtime pop and store to variable?
17:26:17 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
17:27:36 <mroman> also "technically" blsq has the prefix !blsq*
17:27:45 <mroman> either !blsq or !blsq_uptime
17:29:07 <mroman> Although I'm not sure when I'll touch Burlesque again
17:29:29 <mroman> I might suffer from some depressive episodes again sooner or later so I guess I'll do it then.
17:30:05 <mroman> currently doing esolang stuff has the absolute least priority of things I want to do right now ;)
17:32:10 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
17:33:36 <mroman> I barely used the internet privately for months now
17:33:57 <mroman> and it ain't so bad :)
17:35:16 <mroman> I even managed to go to a barber.
17:35:24 <mroman> that's a huge improvement for me.
17:35:26 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, no problem, I'm just surprised you added variables but not this stuff
17:37:29 <mroman> so. gotta go home now :)
18:03:56 <fizzie> You mean with VARPTR/VARSEG and such?
18:13:07 <J_Arcane> Ahh. REading some old code for alternate random functions and it kept referring to pointers, but I think they mean what b_jonas said.
18:13:13 <J_Arcane> http://www.allagri.net/pub/distrib/win/Developing/Basic%20-%20VB/Qb45/QB45/TOOLBOX/RANDOMS.BAS
18:14:57 <J_Arcane> It occurs to me that writing an RNG, at least a simple one, is probably easier in a language with laziness.
18:23:21 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (\x -> let x' = x `xor` (x `shiftR` 12); x'' = x' `xor` (x' `shiftL` 25); x''' = x'' `xor` (x'' `shiftR` 27) in x''') xss in map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) xs
18:23:22 <lambdabot> [13571057368034195726,5609927630774915935,7579251470305882622,59837103641785...
18:24:00 <elliott> tbh the original C is nicer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#Variations
18:25:25 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (doop (-27) . doop 25 . doop (-12)) xs; doop i x = x `xor` (x `shift` i) in map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) xs
18:25:43 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (doop (-27) . doop 25 . doop (-12)) xss; doop i x = x `xor` (x `shift` i) in map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) xs
18:25:44 <lambdabot> [13571057368034195726,5609927630774915935,7579251470305882622,59837103641785...
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18:45:04 <J_Arcane> Racket does have bitshift operators somewhere.
18:46:00 <mroman> ultimate tethering test
18:46:50 <mroman> it'll probably suck the phone battery dry in a matter of minutes
18:47:36 <mroman> but ping is pretty good
18:56:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:02:51 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/fuzxxl/Xorshift
19:09:25 <elliott> tbh I do not think haskell or C has any advantage here really
19:09:35 <elliott> it's a simple mathematical function with some running state
19:10:07 <J_Arcane> Well, it's the state that's the tricky part if I want to actually write it in Heresy.
19:11:08 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (doop (-27) . doop 25 . doop (-12)) xss; doop i x = x `xor` (x `shift` i); rng = map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) in (take 10 xs, take 10 (map (`div` 2685821657736338717) rng))
19:11:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[a1]’
19:11:10 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Word.Word64] -> [GHC.Word.Word64]’
19:11:21 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (doop (-27) . doop 25 . doop (-12)) xss; doop i x = x `xor` (x `shift` i); rng = map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) xs in (take 10 xs, take 10 (map (`div` 2685821657736338717) rng))
19:11:23 <lambdabot> ([41406170598,1389699684410119595,46619205452378150570033046,156466283843221...
19:11:28 <elliott> > let xss@(_:xs) = 1234 : map (doop (-27) . doop 25 . doop (-12)) xss; doop i x = x `xor` (x `shift` i); rng = map (\x -> (x :: Word64) * 2685821657736338717) xs in (take 3 xs, take 3 (map (`div` 2685821657736338717) rng))
19:11:30 <lambdabot> ([41406170598,1389699684410119595,46619205452378150570033046],[5,2,2])
19:11:52 <elliott> it would obviously be very bad if you could go from the output to the seed.
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20:18:43 <J_Arcane> CL's bit operators have such nicer names than Scheme and Racket ...
20:23:06 -!- scarf has changed nick to ais523.
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21:23:40 <J_Arcane> man, I am really an idiot sometimes.
21:24:49 <FireFly> J_Arcane: what are the bit operator names in those lisps?
21:25:39 <J_Arcane> FireFly: in CL, they're ash, logand, logxor, etc. In Racket/Scheme they're the interminably long arithmetic-shift, bitwise-and, bitwise-xor, etc.
21:25:57 <elliott> at least it's not call-with-current-continuation
21:26:34 <elliott> J_Arcane: incidentally, *log*and?
21:26:37 <elliott> shouldn't it be bitand or something
21:26:53 <J_Arcane> elliott: well, that makes a little more sense I agree. Probably what I would use.
21:27:02 <J_Arcane> but at least it's consistent and still not so verbose.
21:36:57 <J_Arcane> Hah hah. Well, it's not at all functional code, but I have managed to write an xorshift* generator in Racket now.
21:37:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:44:30 <elliott> ...how do you pronounce "xor"
21:44:30 <jslave> elliott: [SyntaxError] Unexpected token .
21:44:33 <jslave> elliott: [SyntaxError] Unexpected token .
21:44:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:44:42 -!- elliott has kicked jslave pick a different prefix.
21:44:42 -!- jslave has joined.
21:44:46 <jslave> elliott: [SyntaxError] Unexpected token .
21:45:00 <elliott> hey, I think jmaster is hagb4rd.
21:45:10 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*jslave@*.
21:45:19 -!- elliott has kicked jslave pick a different prefix and don't rejoin when kicked.
21:45:21 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:45:49 <int-e> . o O ( It had it coming... )
21:46:10 <elliott> int-e: it especially had it coming if its owner is the ban-evader I think they are
21:46:58 <J_Arcane> Basically, I think the xorshift algo in particular is rather explicitly dependent on repeatedly mutating a state variable, because it's all about fun with fixed bitwise math. The only way I could do it was importing the "racket/unsafe/ops" library, just to have proper 'rolling over' random values. And even then I don't think it works quite right (because it's not using unsigned ints for fixnums)
21:47:12 <elliott> for reference, hagb4rd is the only person to have ever logged on from koln.*mediaWays, afaik
21:47:15 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
21:47:39 -!- fizzie has joined.
21:47:52 <elliott> also, they joined and started botting without any introduction. and act like hagb4rd.
21:48:24 <elliott> jmaster: hi, I have strong suspicions that you are a repeat ban evader; apologies if you're not but please respond to this message
21:48:26 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
21:48:36 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
21:48:56 <elliott> hagb4rd is on like the world's longest quest to ensure nobody will ever, ever think about unbanning him, ever
21:49:22 -!- nortti has changed nick to lawspeaker.
21:49:31 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
21:51:48 <elliott> you know, maybe I should have just left his entire ISP unbanned.
21:51:53 <elliott> it was only days ago I removed that, wasn't it?
21:53:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
21:53:41 -!- ais523 has kicked jmaster if we say "please say something to prove you're human", you should do that.
21:53:44 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
21:53:57 <elliott> ais523: err, I'm sure they're human
21:54:05 <J_Arcane> anyway, I need sleep. and tomorrow is bloody Christmas eve, so probably if I do anything about randoms in Heresy at all this weekend, it'll be just importing the Racket generator and being done with it.
21:54:05 <elliott> they're almost certainly hagb4rd, on the other hand, so I don't object
21:54:18 <elliott> you should maybe /msg them asking if they are, he usually admits to it
21:54:23 <elliott> btw, for those following along at home, hagb4rd was initially permabanned almost 18 months ago
21:54:32 <ais523> treating ban evaders as spambots is funny anyway
21:54:37 <elliott> thus proving that as long as you never give up, you can achieve anything
21:54:57 <ais523> it could just be autojoin?
21:55:03 <elliott> ais523: to be fair my evidence is just ISP + location (the "koln" from the mediaWays IP) + typing style + coming in and talking/botting without introduction or anything
21:55:11 <ais523> nicks don't change autojoin
21:55:30 <elliott> the first thing he did was rot13'd his nick so we wouldn't recognise him, I think...
21:55:33 <elliott> that was literally days after being banned
21:55:43 <ais523> you have to suspect learning difficulty at that point
21:55:45 <elliott> also, he really hates me, and insults me to oerjan or something whenever I ban him again
21:55:55 <elliott> ais523: I can assure you, he knows he's banned
21:56:00 <elliott> he's tried to get me to unban him because it's "been so long"
21:56:08 <ais523> elliott: I know, but I mean, assuming that that would get around a filter
21:56:13 <elliott> without mentioning that (a) that ban was a permanent one after a last straw, and (b) he's been evading since
21:56:19 <elliott> ais523: it actually worked for a few days
21:56:24 <elliott> most people don't rot13 people's nicks...
21:56:37 <elliott> I think he got banned based on behaviour before it was realised it was rot13
21:56:52 <elliott> also, probably talking about him will encourage him? but whatever
21:57:07 <int-e> would strike me as unreadable, but not familiar ;-)
21:57:26 <elliott> it was "untoneq" or something
21:57:29 <int-e> (vag-r has a problem)
21:57:40 -!- mitchs has joined.
21:57:43 <elliott> ais523: how do you feel about banning every mediaWays user from the city of koln, germany
21:57:53 -!- CrazyM4n has joined.
21:58:13 <glguy> It feels good to be able to sit back and now worry about who's who and needs banning. Go elliott !
21:58:18 <ais523> in smallish channels, broad bans are often OK because people will contact you separately if they need to join
22:02:23 -!- ZuuSanta has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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22:03:05 <elliott> would you like ops here too?
22:03:23 <ais523> opping people who haven't been around for years normally tends to be a bad idea
22:03:32 <ais523> doesn't mean it doesn't happen anyway, but…
22:03:50 <elliott> do hostname bans apply to webchat, or just IP
22:03:55 <elliott> they made IP ones apply recently I think
22:04:03 <int-e> ais523: I think this is part of a #haskell conspiracy to take over this channel.
22:04:31 <glguy> I'd prefer to have no op responsibilities. ^_^
22:04:39 <elliott> I kind of enjoy catching repeat ban evaders
22:04:45 <elliott> with everyone else you have to wonder if you've made the right decision
22:04:51 <elliott> so it's nice when people make it unambiguous
22:05:01 <elliott> (hagb4rd: this is not an encouragement)
22:05:10 <glguy> The shiny of channel moderation wore off
22:05:39 <elliott> being vs. not being an op is like a tradeoff of "I can't make this person go away" vs. "I have to worry about making everyone who needs to go away go away"
22:06:08 <zzo38> Use a client-side filter if you don't like them, is one option.
22:06:17 <glguy> Yeah, I know all about the trade off. I still do the work in #haskell
22:07:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:07:06 <glguy> It's draining. I don't need to do more!
22:07:14 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +b *!*@koln*.pool.mediaWays.net.
22:07:17 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
22:07:47 <elliott> I think the more time I spend as an op the greater the portion of a channel I want to ban out of annoyance from having to be an op
22:07:52 <elliott> well, #esoteric is easy since it's so sleepy
22:08:05 <zzo38> Do you know Freenode has NOOP and NEVEROP settings? It says it prevent you from added to access lists.
22:08:58 <zzo38> (I use these settings myself too)
22:10:17 -!- Solace|zzz has joined.
22:11:24 <int-e> asm volatile ("nop; nvop" : : : "memory")
22:11:54 <elliott> is nvop like... very no operation
22:12:04 <int-e> oh, ; is bad. should use \n\t
22:16:31 -!- Zuu has joined.
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22:34:58 <lambdabot> int-e said 5h 16m 54s ago: Oh this may be useful for Haskell golfing: If you ever need Data.Bits, you can import Foreign instead. (It also exports Data.Int and Data.Word)
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22:51:16 <boily> I'm in a bus. are you in a bus?
22:51:35 <oerjan> no, i'm in a sofa. which is not in a bus.
22:52:17 <boily> prepositions shmepositions. I say “in”.
22:52:48 <oerjan> it's "i" in norwegian, anyway
22:53:23 <oerjan> i'm just trying to clarify i haven't been eaten by murder furniture
22:53:58 <boily> Scandinavian Design Murder Furniture: the new Ikea collection.
22:55:14 <glguy> You *hide* in a sofa
22:56:25 <boily> québécois verb of the day: s'effouérer. example: «j'me suis effouéré su'l'divan.»
22:56:37 <int-e> going by bus, on a bus, inside the bus.
22:56:47 <oerjan> hm am i imagining a john cleese sketch that doesn't exist in this universe
22:56:55 <boily> (s'effouérer: v.i. to adopt a post-modern horizontal un-feng-shui position.)
22:57:03 <int-e> boily: hmm, Ikea has those great names ...
22:57:54 <boily> int-e: I'm convinced Ikea names are sombre subliminal messages to mess with your consumer mind.
22:58:02 <int-e> Now I'm wondering what that murder furniture would be called
22:58:56 <int-e> To be fair, it's hard not to mess with people's minds.
22:59:04 <boily> ĀĀĀĀĀGH (it's a cabinet. a very gloomy loomy cabinet.)
22:59:41 <int-e> oerjan, boily: I like both
23:00:05 <oerjan> mine has the advantage of being plausible if you know swedish hth
23:01:01 <boily> mine will titillate the exotropism of naïve consumers by having an audacious concentration of ā ^^
23:01:41 <oerjan> boily: i suggest we use mine for the nordic market and yours for the us, then
23:03:30 <oerjan> back to trying to find the sketch. maybe it wasn't john cleese after all.
23:05:55 <oerjan> it doesn't help that i don't remember what the murder chair was called in english
23:06:12 <oerjan> and that this was back in the 80s or perhaps even 70s
23:07:19 <boily> I don't believe people who say they were alive during the 80s.
23:07:54 <oerjan> fine, i'm trying to find a reference for my implanted fake memory of this sketch, anyhow
23:08:13 <int-e> oerjan: If it was called "executive chair" you'll never find it.
23:09:44 * boily hides the fact that he turns 26 tomorrow.
23:10:30 <int-e> boily: are you still counting years in decimal?
23:10:55 <oerjan> boily: i'm sorry only i am allowed to be older than oren hth
23:11:20 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:11:23 <oerjan> i think that is established now
23:11:26 <boily> @ask oren What are your approximate ages?
23:11:38 <int-e> I don't think we have much choice in the matter.
23:12:50 <boily> choice is an illusion. war is peace. ketchup is a vegetable.
23:13:32 * oerjan gives up the search and just accepts having shifted to a different universe
23:14:20 <int-e> Ketchup, hmm. Well, there's sugar, usually made from plants, vinegar, some wood perhaps?, and most ketchup claims to contain tomatoes.
23:15:18 <int-e> (I really don't know what cheap vinegar is made from... let me ask aunt google)
23:15:58 <oerjan> i know cheap vanilla is made from wood, but i thought vinegar was merely alcohol that had been allowed to go bad
23:16:21 <boily> wooden vanilla? I thought it was only artificial synthesis...
23:16:37 <oerjan> boily: wood is the basis for the synthesis
23:16:46 <int-e> Interesting. "Vinegar made from beer is produced in the United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands."
23:16:50 <boily> I think white vinegar is made from malt. consulting uncle wikipédia...
23:17:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well methanol is known as wood alcohol, so if you want it so cheap that you die of it...
23:17:26 <int-e> "It is sometimes derived from petroleum." yay.
23:19:08 <int-e> but basically it seems to be "anything that contains alcohol and isn't too lethal by itself."
23:21:33 * oerjan didn't know there were that many types of vinegar, although it's obvious in retrospect
23:22:04 <boily> “1-Propanol is thought to be similar to ethanol in its effects on human body, but 2-4 times more potent.”
23:25:07 <oerjan> wtf there is a vanilla flavoring made from beavers
23:25:27 <int-e> are vegetarians allowed to eat that?
23:25:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, from beavers' assholes or something
23:25:50 <elliott> I check IRC and all I see is "beavers' assholes"
23:25:56 <b_jonas> int-e: most probably are, just like how they're allowed to drink milk, but it depends on their individual choices
23:26:09 <b_jonas> vegetarians come in all kinds of variants
23:27:25 <oerjan> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castoreum
23:27:26 <int-e> (Perhaps I also shouldn't ask whether they are allowed to do it; these constraints are self-induced more often than not, with some notable ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion ) exceptions)
23:27:45 <elliott> int-e: probably more relevant to ask it of vegans
23:28:21 <int-e> Sorry, the moment of curiosity passed.
23:28:41 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, it's not really "allowed"
23:29:51 <boily> I see dietetary constraints as a challenge: what's the tastiest stuff I can muster within a given frameset.
23:30:20 <boily> (my goto secret ingredient: hoisin sauce.)
23:30:33 <b_jonas> boily: I think the people with dietary constraints for health reasons (allergies) don't see it like that
23:31:59 <int-e> I'm sure they do pereceive it as a challenge :-/
23:32:22 <boily> it's not a constraint, it's an impediment. (to the tune of "not a bug, a feature")
23:33:11 <boily> but b_jonas has a point. I can't eat mussels. (well, I can. but then I'll be tasting the same mussel twice.)
23:34:25 <int-e> Does it extend to any other kind of sea food?
23:34:50 <b_jonas> luckily I don't have health-enforced dietary restrictions
23:35:00 <boily> no, only them. I'd be very sad if I were intolerant of any other seafoods.
23:35:27 <b_jonas> but many people do. doctors keep labelling lots of people as lactose-intolerant, it's the newest fashionable illness I think.
23:35:36 <int-e> I'd say that just mussels aren't a big loss.
23:35:52 <b_jonas> they tried it on me once too, more than a decade ago, but luckily it didn't stick.
23:37:11 <boily> int-e: to compensate, I eat the fungot out of calamaris and squids and clams and shrimps and everything else that tries to hide itself inside a shell.
23:37:11 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
23:37:29 <fungot> boily: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has that as their whole fnord range of the ' ' ' delete a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there aren't any penguins this far inland. there's nothing to take on
23:37:44 * int-e knows of one severe case of lactose intolerance, where the result would be vomiting (rather than unspecific tiredness and perhaps the occasional stomach ache)
23:38:43 <elliott> tbh I don't even know why you'd want to eat the toes of a lack
23:38:54 <elliott> stick to its muscles (unless you're boily)
23:39:13 <boily> moar delicious innards!
23:39:23 <boily> (btw, what's a lack?)
23:39:47 <fizzie> ISTR Finland has a good high score in lactose intolerance.
23:40:06 <fizzie> Relatively speaking, anyway.
23:40:16 <fizzie> There are some places where it's like 90%.
23:40:21 <elliott> wyh would a ma even have a pole. tahts too violent for a mother
23:40:31 <b_jonas> the problem is that lactose intolerance alone is something you can actually base a seemingly reasonable diet on, so people are more incilned to believe their doctor when she says their child has it; whereas gluten allergy is much harder to accomodate, so people are more likely to verify it before they try to.
23:40:46 <int-e> elliott: clearly you've never tamed 5 little brats at the same time
23:41:06 <boily> int-e: you're a mother?
23:42:35 <int-e> Much to the advantage of my children I'm not a father either.
23:42:43 <b_jonas> still, I wouldn't be happy to try either
23:43:42 <glguy> int-e: You'd be a bad influence on them so it's best that you don't take on the role?
23:44:00 <boily> I believe in int-e's maternal instincts.
23:44:11 <int-e> glguy: something like that
23:51:21 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:39 <oerjan> <boily> int-e: to compensate, I eat the fungot out of calamaris and squids and clams and shrimps and everything else that tries to hide itself inside a shell. <-- huh i don't even think of clams as something different than mussels...
23:56:49 <boily> fungot: I'll take Random Choice Questions for 200 zorkmids.
23:56:50 <fungot> boily: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! they're my friends! you are crono. why not?
23:57:16 <int-e> wow, you actually got a question out of fungot.
23:57:16 <fungot> int-e: to " print" statement should always remember the songs on p2p apps in scheme, besides, was not beyond normal credibility holidays but that is amazing. i believe, on the one hand, and caused the seal of that great people were peculiar. anteeks ett olen tyhm. tai no fnord min. c++ is plain, and :) which i not yet can see as " at least, that is expressions which have not been able, to assume responsibilities. he went on, "
23:58:09 <int-e> Perfectly on topic.
23:58:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:58:47 <int-e> (And I didn't even think of fungot when I changed the topic.)
23:58:47 <fungot> int-e: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! a top secret document has been left behind? marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea, each player's score is set to eir bvlop
23:59:09 <boily> oerjan: well, clam is kinda ambiguous... with «palourde» even more so.
23:59:32 <boily> (surf clam sashimi is delicious!)
23:59:49 <boily> int-e: there's an understanding between fungot and me. we connect on another level.
23:59:49 <fungot> boily: or is it just me, or i: yet, you rogue! explain why haskell is a lot easier life, some feathering, and are, going a little far and its kind, but my watch it toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.