00:00:13 <elliott> um. rhetorical question or sincere?
00:00:32 <oren> i really don't know
00:01:53 <zzo38> /msg is a command in some IRC clients, I think; its purpose is slightly different in different IRC clients
00:03:15 <oren> ok i get it now.. it is like a PM on a BBS. not visible to everyone that is
00:04:14 <oren> screw the technical details, i don't need to know how EVERY thing is use works...
00:04:32 <scoofy> ok, then I won't link to the RFC document
00:04:44 <scoofy> i just means 'private message' in case you send it to another person
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00:06:04 <elliott> oren: you can also /msg #channel ... though
00:06:12 <elliott> (as long as you're in it unless it is -n)
00:07:07 <scoofy> i think that is an irrelevant tech detail here.
00:07:08 <zzo38> If you send a message to a channel you do not get a copy even if you are on it though; however you can also send a message directly to yourself.
00:07:33 <oren> so i have implemented a /// variant in which each part is a pascal string.
00:07:56 <elliott> oren: I suggest not using decimal for that.
00:07:58 <oren> (e.g. it is preceded by its length as a byte)
00:08:15 <oren> but is it still TC?
00:08:46 <oren> any i figure it is less boring than most of the BF variants
00:08:54 <elliott> I was thinking something like defining it on bits as 1^m0{s1}^n0{s2}{s3} where |s1| = m, |s2| = n
00:09:13 <elliott> so 11100100... replaces "010" with the empty string in ...
00:10:09 <oren> is arbitrary length of pattern and replacement requied for TCness?
00:12:18 <oren> in hex, 010A020A0B0A0B -> 0A0B0B
00:13:11 <oren> but i'm not sure what the termination condition would be
00:14:12 <oren> but this does eliminate the need for \'s.
00:16:00 <elliott> hmm, I suppose my language can only output 0s
00:16:48 <myname> also: you did mean 0^n and not ^n0, didn't you?
00:17:46 <myname> i do not understand in that case
00:18:16 <myname> yeah, that works for me
00:18:30 <elliott> you can't do things like make programs with useful infinite output though
00:18:45 <elliott> I don't see any way to allow outputting 1s too that wouldn't feel a bit impure
00:18:52 <elliott> oh, wait, it can't even output 0s
00:19:19 <elliott> which is admittedly a useless construct, but one that is in the original ///, and one that should be present for symmetry
00:19:43 <myname> i don't see the problem
00:20:02 <myname> maybe i should reread about ///
00:20:04 <elliott> well so 0 has a meaning other than outputting a 0bit
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00:37:16 <elliott> https://esolangs.org/wiki/111 I guess HackEgo isn't here
00:38:51 <oren> hold on. what if the string evolves to a bitstring beginning with 0?
00:39:14 <elliott> 0 111 0 101 --> ("", "101")
00:39:20 <elliott> so it is like //101/ in ///.
00:40:05 <oren> ...damn. uhh... actually if my byte-based one had input it would have the same probelm
00:40:40 <oren> well... how do you terminate?
00:40:58 <myname> elliott: how do you seperate several substitution rules with your above rule?
00:41:18 <myname> won't you need to prefix s3, too?
00:41:27 <elliott> myname: strings are self-delimited, so in (s1:string)(s2:string)(s3:bits) we replace s1 with s2 in s3.
00:41:33 <elliott> and then continue running s3.
00:41:54 <oren> i am tinking of eliminating input and halting on 0.
00:41:54 <elliott> "replace" is defined as per ///, i.e. you replace the first occurrence of s1 with s2 in s3, and then repeat.
00:42:12 <elliott> (therefore if you replace a string s with any string that has an s in it, it is an infinite loop.)
00:42:20 <elliott> stopping when there are no s1s in s3.
00:47:16 <oren> yeah. so what if an empty pattern and replacement halts instead of looping ofrver doing trivial replacements
00:47:42 <oren> 00[N] will output N
00:49:24 <elliott> that's a weird special case.
00:49:39 <elliott> see e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:///#An_ambiguity_in_the_spec
00:50:14 <nys> an ambiguity in the spec
00:50:33 <elliott> mostly because I rewrote the spec :p
00:50:50 <nys> there are tons of ambiguous specs
00:51:36 <nys> i don't even know
00:52:07 <elliott> what's the behaviour of the itflabtijtslwi program GGx nys?!?! only you can clarify
00:52:31 <elliott> I suggest it be specified as starting an interactive game of tetris
00:53:39 <nys> i think i'll explicitly specify that it's unspecified
00:53:46 <nys> and call it "Undefined Behaviour"
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00:54:02 <elliott> okay, but, like, triggering an error would be so boring.
00:54:13 <nys> no it's not illegal
00:54:18 <nys> it's just. undefined.
00:54:27 <elliott> yeah but I mean as an implementation choice as to how you interpret that undefined behaviour!
00:54:36 <elliott> okay how about it's undefined WHICH game it starts
00:54:57 <nys> depends how much free memory there is
00:55:06 <nys> and the endianness of the target machine
00:55:14 <elliott> all itflabtijtslwi programs must reimplement crysis
00:55:39 <myname> elliott: i vote for dwarf fortress
00:55:44 <elliott> nys: gcc actually used to treat implementation-specific behaviour this way btw http://feross.org/gcc-ownage/
00:56:25 <elliott> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/759 ahh, this would give oren a heart attack
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00:57:25 <nys> coeducation is the great coequalizer
00:57:33 <nys> someone should teach me category theory
00:57:38 <kallisti> fizzie: you can apparently use SetWindowLong to change GWLP_USERDATA
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00:57:53 <kallisti> took me a second to parse that
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00:58:29 <kallisti> I somehow thought it would be a good idea to write a win32 GUI
00:58:36 <kallisti> on my own accord, without being paid large sums of cash.
00:59:47 <elliott> nys: be careful, inductive reasoning isn't enough to learn CT, you need the coinductive kind as well. eh this joke sucks
01:00:35 <nys> it is a terrible joke
01:00:49 <nys> but it'd be a terrible joke i'd get better if i knew CT ;_;
01:01:27 <elliott> it's not even really much of a CT joke...
01:01:52 <elliott> putting "co" in front of everything is (a very bad one), but coinduction isn't even a CT thing
01:02:03 <elliott> well, it probably is, from some perspective, but so is everything -_-
01:02:21 <nys> well i mean i know coequalizers are a thing
01:02:38 <nys> something about being applied for a unification algorithm in like one textbook
01:03:46 <elliott> I knew what coequalisers were, once
01:04:00 <nys> mnnnn i forget
01:04:18 <nys> oh uh i think it might have been category theory for computing science?
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01:04:23 <nys> or something like that
01:05:02 <elliott> that sounds interesting... why were you reading a book with that title if you don't know CT though :p
01:05:18 <kallisti> elliott: I wrote a chat bot that connects to twitch.tv's "IRC" server (more of a pseudo-IRC server than anything, since it doesn't implement most of the protocol), takes song requests from subscribers, and adds them to a Spotify playlist. Now I'm updating it with a GUI to change configuration and display who requested what song.
01:05:28 <kallisti> the person I wrote it for isn't very comfortable with config files. :P
01:06:15 <elliott> nys: oh or is it like a CT introduction from the perspective of CS
01:06:19 <elliott> rather than like the other way around
01:06:34 <kallisti> I'm more or less using win32 api to say that I did, and then move on with my life (preferably forever)
01:06:45 <nys> i didn't read too much of it
01:07:21 <elliott> I've heard that CT books are a rather mixed bag
01:08:26 <nys> i've just started reading one called uh i forget but it's by two guys named lawvere and schanuel
01:08:39 <nys> it's really sort of childish but i like it
01:08:52 <elliott> I've heard things about that and I forget whether they were really good or really bad
01:09:18 <elliott> my problem with CT is that I don't have the mathematical knowledge to understand all the concrete examples
01:09:43 <elliott> so I end up pretending the only "applied", non-"CT stuff" category is Set, which doesn't go too well
01:09:52 <nys> that's the great thing about this book
01:10:12 <nys> in that it seems like you don't even really need math as a prerequisite haha
01:10:36 <elliott> it's a shame because I am interested in CT more for its own sake than for its applications, really
01:11:19 <nys> i mostly only study this stuff in the hope of stumbling across novel applications
01:12:22 <oren> From reading the wikipedia, CT looked easy until i realized it is brutaly hard
01:14:32 <oren> but it looks so trivial at first that it is so... inviting
01:15:20 <oren> like a comfy couch with a bunch of invisible thumbtacks
01:15:21 <nys> it looks like a gateway math
01:15:25 <nys> but then it is hard maths
01:15:58 <kallisti> I quit a math long time ago. My life has been a lot better since.
01:16:35 <kallisti> I can now look down on those who do math, because I have already quit.
01:17:00 <oren> i make computers do math so i don't have to. math is the computer's job
01:18:37 <myname> no, calculating is the computer's job
01:18:43 <elliott> arguably the problem is that CT is too simple; there's nothing to hold on to
01:18:43 <myname> math is not calculating
01:19:54 <oren> myname: CAS would beg to differ
01:20:39 <kallisti> my favorite thing about this project is learning about the function wcstombs
01:20:48 <kallisti> I like to think of it as an author's name
01:21:46 <oren> The curse of W.C.'s tombs.
01:21:56 <kallisti> I haven't quite figured out a nice mnemonic for mbstowcs though.
01:22:13 <oren> William Carlsroy
01:23:02 <int-e> You're in a maze of puns, all different :/
01:23:18 <kallisti> other fun windows things: WNDCLASSEX
01:23:59 <oren> Wind class sex.
01:24:05 <int-e> Oh, I actually guessed the meaning of wcstombs correctly.
01:24:24 <elliott> is that like having sex in a class about the weather
01:24:26 * int-e goes shoot out his brain.
01:25:03 <Jafet> Surely it's a place name in the UK
01:25:04 <oren> why has atoi not been added to C11?
01:25:20 <nys> weather report music sounds pretty sexy
01:25:28 <kallisti> by the thing elliott mentioned
01:25:59 <oren> what about itoa?
01:26:07 <elliott> nys: banging to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_Forecast
01:26:37 <oren> sprintf doesn't support arbitrary base
01:26:46 <elliott> uh, neither does itoa afaik
01:27:04 <elliott> okay, it's more flexible though
01:27:15 <kallisti> who even uses sscanf for anything ever
01:27:27 <elliott> kallisti: it's less annoying than manual string mangling
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01:27:46 <oren> when you want to input one line exactly then read numbers from it
01:28:17 <int-e> kallisti: it's good for throwaway programs that require input, but where the input is trusted or only consists of numbers?
01:28:24 <oren> scanf space matches \n which is sometimes not what you want
01:28:30 <elliott> nys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSq4nfH4y6Q more likely to put you to sleep tbh
01:28:33 <Jafet> sscanf does locales.
01:29:17 <Melvar> Where is itoa a thing?
01:29:18 <nys> elliott, i was actually covertly referring to these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCQ89diiq5Q
01:29:45 <elliott> nys: oh, duh. no, I know of Weather Report, I just interpreted it completely literally for some reason
01:29:55 <elliott> I prefer my interpretation tbh
01:30:06 <elliott> muzak to get you into the mood
01:30:41 <oren> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/yakksftt.aspx
01:31:03 <oren> no i have no clue why thatis the url
01:31:31 <kallisti> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/yakksftt.aspx
01:32:11 <kallisti> I am actually pretty curious about why it is called that
01:32:46 <kallisti> ah, looks like all of the URLs have gibberish names
01:33:11 <Jafet> “More secure versions of these functions are available”
01:34:44 <HackEgo> olist 971: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
01:35:29 <kallisti> so for those who aren't familiar with it: any guesses for what the type name LPCWSTR stands for?
01:35:40 <elliott> long pointer to wide character string
01:35:51 <kallisti> wow you sound awfully familiar with that type
01:35:51 <elliott> it's easy when you know the basic elements of the type name
01:36:04 <elliott> I don't think I've ever written more than like 30 lines of Win32.
01:36:08 <int-e> funny how the "L" survived the tides of time
01:36:31 <boily> shachaf: shellochellof! thanks!
01:36:32 <elliott> "STR" is obvious, and gives an obvious meaning to "CW", because I do know Windows uses WCHAT/wchar_t UTF-16 (or UCS-2, sometimes...)
01:36:41 <nys> funny how the L survived rather than being dropped
01:37:09 <elliott> nys: well, modern-day pointers act more like long ones did, right?
01:37:24 <nys> soooort oooooofffff
01:37:30 <kallisti> well if it were PCWSTR people might think it stands for Personal Computer Wide String, or maybe Program Counter Wide String. :)
01:37:45 <shachaf> today's olist features the return of an unlikely nemesis
01:37:48 <int-e> nys: perhaps that happened because for a quite a long time, LP were 32 bits?
01:37:56 <nys> ok true nuff
01:38:12 <int-e> also with 64 bit architectures, the distinction is somewhat relevant again
01:38:33 <elliott> nys: I mean, near pointers are limited, far pointers can address everything but they're bulkier
01:38:40 <elliott> it really is more like near pointers stopped existing than far pointers
01:38:42 <int-e> Because one can save lots of memory if pointers are truncated to 32 bits, which is plenty enough for many applications.
01:38:46 <fizzie> int-e: Sadly, WPARAM and LPARAM are still the same size on x64 Windows. They missed a great chance to make LPARAM 64 bits and WPARAM 32.
01:38:56 <elliott> you have to apologise for your error nys
01:39:03 <nys> i'm really sorry
01:39:08 <nys> i retract my statement
01:39:09 <coppro> that's not enough reallys
01:39:20 <nys> i'm reeeeeally really sorry with a cherry on top
01:39:23 <kallisti> I've been messing with WPARAM and LPARAM all day and I actually did not even bother to figure out what the L and W stood for. :P
01:39:50 <int-e> (hoping for a good keyboard ;-) )
01:40:11 <elliott> that was even worse than my coinduction joke
01:40:59 <pikhq> Man, I just "love" the whole notion of far pointers in DOS C.
01:41:02 <elliott> cherry is a company that makes keyboards.
01:41:18 <kallisti> okay so apparently LPARAM and WPARAM used to be different sizes and now they're not, but they kept their names just cuz?
01:41:23 <nys> it looks like another apology is in order >_>
01:41:37 <pikhq> "If you wanna be portable to DOS and handle sane amounts of memory, good luck being sane!"
01:42:14 * nys glares at int-e
01:43:13 <int-e> Nah, whom am I kidding.
01:43:34 <nys> it's going inta yer record then...punk...
01:43:52 * int-e is sorry with a Logitech on top
01:43:56 <nys> this one gonna follow you around the rest of your pun career
01:44:19 <int-e> (Haven't seen one I liked, so that should be repentance enough)
01:49:43 <int-e> I have several sources of bad influences, http://www.vexxarr.com/archive.php?seldate=010908 not the least among them.
01:51:11 <int-e> (Not just that particular one (I got the link from TV tropes), the whole comic is full of puns, often awful to the extent that it's used as a weapon to slow down enemies. I think OOTS does that, too.)
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02:07:49 * boily glares at int-e. “you linked me to a punny comic. I hate you.”
02:10:13 <int-e> http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20071014 is another nice demonstration
02:10:31 <int-e> and it's actually meta, so that should make it ok ;-)
02:14:01 <int-e> boiling with rage?
02:14:16 <int-e> (Sorry it took so long. I'm sure this has been done before.)
02:17:29 <boily> I'll think of something. just you wait...
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02:21:29 * int-e shuffles into a corner and hangs his head in sham.
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02:55:39 <int-e> coppro: don't ask, I might still need the plausible deniability.
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03:21:00 <int-e> oh nice. apparently one can reconstruct fingerprints from photographs (obvious in retrospect...) ... so much for security.
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03:26:32 <boily> int-e: do you need hi-res, or can you infer a good engough print from a good enough picture?
03:35:38 <int-e> boily: they used a standard camera and a 200mm lens (which they write is standard for reporters) at a press conference; I assume they zoomed in on the hands.
03:40:14 <int-e> pity, the talk was in german. https://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/Fahrplan/events/6450.html
03:42:37 <int-e> Nice title though. "I see, therefore I am ... you."
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03:48:54 <oren> Authentifizierungserfahren...
03:49:46 <oren> someone make a bot that processes s/// commnads
03:51:08 <int-e> `` sed 's/./&&/g' <<<"because it would be awful"
03:51:11 <HackEgo> bbeeccaauussee iitt wwoouulldd bbee aawwffuull
03:51:18 <oren> we can name him sbot the bot. see sbot run. s/see/run,/
03:51:43 <boily> s/// is probably turing complete. it may cause infinite loops of disproportionatexponential proportions.
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03:52:41 <coppro> my laptop's battery lasts embarrassingly long <3
03:53:59 <int-e> oren: I really can't see that ending well; the abuse will outweigh the benefit and even the benefit is very small; people are good at spotting and correcting typos even without the s/// prompts.
03:54:34 <coppro> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes
03:54:53 <oren> limit it to one iteration per s//
03:55:49 <int-e> `` sed 's/.*/&! &!!! &!!!!!/' <<<"because it would be awful"
03:55:50 <HackEgo> because it would be awful! because it would be awful!!! because it would be awful!!!!!
03:57:08 <coppro> note that slashes has no regexes and no backreferences
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04:03:47 <oren> how efficient is it to fseek around in a file instead of using my own explicit buffer?
04:04:51 <oren> i am hoping there isn't much penalty
04:06:07 <int-e> Another system call. If you seek a lot and the file isn't *too* big, you could use mmap.
04:07:06 <int-e> KISS suggests you should try the fseek and optimize later.
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04:08:44 <oren> seems to be ok from my test...]
04:08:56 <oren> i'll try a buffer later
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04:10:52 <lambdabot> int-e said 11h 35m 40s ago: I'm not worried about getting to Paris yet. The more immediate problem is whether the engine will consume Agatha's locket.
04:11:32 <int-e> oerjan: not my idea, it has been hinted at.
04:12:39 <oerjan> do you mean something more specific than martellus's hand?
04:13:57 <oerjan> perhaps his chemical modifications of agatha will save the day :P
04:14:52 <oerjan> also, are we _really_ sure margolotta is dead. maybe she has something that just makes her look that way.
04:14:56 <int-e> Well, there's the last panel in http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20141219
04:15:22 <int-e> oerjan: I also thought Zeetha was worried about it at one point, but perhaps I imagined that.
04:15:55 <oerjan> she has been worried about the locket before, but recently?
04:16:03 <int-e> oerjan: Good question. But Violetta confirmed her death, so tentatively I'm accepting that she is dead. Which doesn't mean she won't be revived.
04:16:38 <oerjan> right that would be non-ferrous metal
04:17:51 <int-e> how many people have actually died in this comic so far...
04:18:05 <int-e> (named characters)
04:18:23 <oerjan> let's see, doctor beetle, judy and punch
04:18:47 <oerjan> (of course those two got better)
04:18:57 <int-e> two of them revived.
04:19:13 <int-e> (Olga revived, perhaps ;-) )
04:19:31 <oerjan> or at least, without her old brain
04:20:26 <int-e> oh there's that soldier killed by the locket
04:20:36 <oerjan> right, moloch's brother
04:21:39 <oerjan> plenty of people, i'd say :P
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04:22:09 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure zola survived
04:22:46 <oerjan> she was last seen alive and recuperating
04:23:42 <oerjan> fraulein von pinn sort of died but got reclanked
04:23:51 <int-e> oh. http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20110221
04:24:15 <oerjan> lord selnikov also got revived
04:25:21 <oerjan> there were other castle inmates but i don't remember if any had names
04:25:27 <int-e> Of course Zola should be out of action in the time stop field.
04:25:49 <int-e> (Together with a lot of other members of the cast.)
04:25:56 <oerjan> hm that may be, unless she left when klaus did
04:26:09 <int-e> Oh that could be...
04:27:12 <oerjan> öumph or whatever that trumpet guy was called, although he didn't survive very long
04:27:50 <int-e> Damn we really don't know much about what happened during those 3 years. So many opportunities for Lucrecia (one of her three? copies, besides Agatha) to come up with deviltries.
04:28:58 <oerjan> i only know of two other copies, one of which is zola and so is different
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04:30:05 <oerjan> dimo did tell agatha gil was fighting against her mother
04:30:43 <oerjan> so she's obviously somewhat powerful
04:34:59 <int-e> I guess you're right. http://girlgenius.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other
04:36:20 <int-e> The whole Sturmhalten scene is a blur to me. So two copies of Lucrecia make it out of there but one of them was Agatha...
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04:40:45 <int-e> oerjan: Do you know whether Agatha has taken the locket off since her revification death below castle Heterodyne? Because that scene looked like she might actually be rid of her.
04:40:55 <oerjan> this guy also has a name and dies shortly after http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20130520
04:42:02 <oerjan> int-e: um zola took the locket off after that
04:42:23 <newsham> https://twitter.com/jamesgolick/status/529360759256776704
04:42:27 <int-e> right. that settles that.
04:46:12 <oerjan> iirc the last time lucrezia was in complete control of agatha's body was http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100730
04:46:47 <oerjan> (there were some eerie emotion-only episodes later)
04:48:08 * oerjan has been rereading that section recently
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04:50:24 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20101129
04:52:32 <oerjan> next page is where tarvek says that he can remove lucrezia once and for all
04:52:55 <oerjan> but of course there hasn't been time for that
04:54:08 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> so there's a field of mathematics called 'non-galoisian galois theory' <-- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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04:57:15 <lambdabot> ENVA 280450Z 12011KT 9999 FEW044 SCT053 M11/M13 Q1021 RMK WIND 670FT 15008KT
04:57:39 <oerjan> it's supposed to get warmer tomorrow
04:57:49 <lambdabot> LOWI 280450Z VRB01KT 6000 -SN SCT010 SCT030 BKN050 M04/M04 Q1001 NOSIG
04:59:20 <oerjan> WHY IS THE SNOW FALLING UPWARDS IN INNSBRUCK, FILM AT 11
05:00:41 <oren> the longer you go hacking at code without refactoring, the worse it looks
05:00:44 <int-e> bah. It's snowing lightly.
05:00:59 <int-e> Silly oerjan. Not that I have any right to complain.
05:01:01 <oerjan> oren: isn't that like the definition of technical debt
05:01:28 * oerjan hasn't actually read the definition mind you
05:01:52 <int-e> there's also a + modifier for heavy rain or snow.
05:01:57 <oren> int o,ol,l,i,n,k,m;
05:05:32 <oren> that line is representative of what happens when you put the whole program into the main function
05:06:50 <oren> normally i refactor when the function gets to be more than one screen, but....
05:16:17 <oerjan> you should factor while you still remember the primes, i think
05:17:10 <oren> oerjan: that is actually a good metaphor. it is hard to refacotr code that you didn't just write
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05:43:56 <Sgeo> Am I seriously reading a pro-North Korea thing right now? WTF
05:44:08 <Sgeo> Apparently 'hermit kingdom' is racist? What?
05:45:56 <Sgeo> It doesn't seem to be a DPRK website, seems to be a socialist website
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05:56:22 <Taneb> North Korea scares me
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06:06:01 <oren> my compressor is almost working... it's losing a few bytes at the end of the file
06:08:30 <oren> i have created the most WTF compression algorithm ever
06:09:10 <oren> it goes over the file ~10000 times
06:11:21 <oren> on the plus side decompression is pretty fast
06:16:06 <oren> my compressor is awesome. it generates a program in a language similar to /// which outputs the original file
06:16:09 <TheM4ch1n3> cat somefile.ext | xz -9 -c >somefile.ext.xz
06:17:39 <oren> essentially /// except instead of delimiters each strong begins with a byte giving its length
06:18:15 <TheM4ch1n3> ok, but why not use one of the already developed compression algo's ?
06:18:51 <oren> i will post the code once i've ironed out the bugs and refactored it
06:19:56 <TheM4ch1n3> yeah, I'm working on a minecraft clone - currently developing a block level binary occluder system, goal to render many blocks, but anything could be in each block
06:20:35 <TheM4ch1n3> then I wanna add OpenDE (Physics) and some simple vehicles
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06:22:07 <oren> by "occluder" you mean it detects which blocks are visible before reducing them to polygons?
06:23:17 <oren> ok, compression is fully working it seems
06:24:22 <int-e> . o O ( refactor, v. - rewrite from scratch )
06:26:16 <oren> lol int-e i'm not gonna do that... yet.
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06:34:48 <oren> it is interesting which strings it chooses to reduce,
06:35:14 <roasted42> oren: oh, um by occluder I mean it uses a fill method, whereby airbricks (has nothing but air within) - have markers that move away from the camera until they enter a solid (block), then it knows what to draw
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06:35:34 <TheM4ch1n3> oren: have you read about huffman compression ?
06:36:00 <oren> i have of course
06:36:54 <TheM4ch1n3> how come you dont code a PC game "for fun" ?
06:36:56 <Sgeo> A good politician on SMBC?
06:39:10 <TheM4ch1n3> this is a bit rude but funny -> http://xkcd.com/508/
06:39:54 <oren> TheM4ch1n3: heh, i've done that
06:41:34 <TheM4ch1n3> oren: that is sweet, one other side project I am doing is running around with a flashdisk trying to show people screenshots of linux ....
06:41:44 <oren> I made a game that does 3d by autostereograms
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06:42:15 <oren> e.g. you screw up your eyes and see the game world in 3d
06:42:23 <TheM4ch1n3> oren: you mean those glasses that are blue & red, for seperating the two eyes of the viewer ?
06:42:35 <oren> no glasses, no special screen
06:43:19 <TheM4ch1n3> oren: oh wait, it looks like white noise - pixel fuzz - and squinting eyes reveal an image ?
06:43:52 <oren> like this image:
06:43:53 <Sgeo> cross-eyed viewing
06:43:54 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chess_Single_Image_Stereogram_by_3Dimka.jpg
06:43:56 <Sgeo> Or parallel viewing
06:44:05 <oren> parallel for my game
06:44:06 * Sgeo can do cross-eyed byt not parallel
06:44:27 <oren> i might add a crosseyed mode sometime
06:52:13 <oren> https://gist.github.com/orenwatson/01e1674fe74a21602c17
06:53:51 <oren> (that's the game i was talking about. you fly around and shoot stuff and bomb things, kinda like Xevious)
06:54:12 <Taneb> That C has extraordinarily few comments
06:55:11 <oren> not even a title or author comment, i know
06:56:12 <oerjan> i _think_ i can do cross-eyed but not parallel, in which my question is how the hell do enough people manage parallel that they standardized on it
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06:56:54 <oren> what i do is look over the top of my screen until the game goes into focus
06:56:59 <oerjan> and also, is there an image that is described clearly enough that i can tell the difference
06:57:23 <oren> my game works in walleyed but definitely no in crosseyed
06:57:41 <oren> hold on i'll get a screenshot
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06:57:52 <oerjan> oren: um if i try to do it the way i think is walleyed that wikipedia link never gets into focus for me
06:57:54 <Taneb> I think I can do parallel but not crosseyed
06:59:53 <oerjan> ok i managed to strain my eyes into parallel, just, it's clearly the correct view for that picture then. but blurry.
07:00:11 <oerjan> i guess i need glasses
07:10:46 <oren> http://ctrlv.in/479405
07:11:17 <oren> it seems the easiest way to screenshot an allegro game is to hack the screen shotting into the game itself
07:12:28 <oren> luckily with my skillz i can do that in 3 minutes
07:15:04 <oren> (only kidding, "skillz")
07:15:24 <roasted42> oren: you have used OpenGL too I assume ?
07:15:55 <oren> yeas i have, not a lot tho
07:19:35 <oren> i don't get why allegro doesn't handle losing focus properly
07:21:47 <roasted42> I use SDL2 or SDL1, allegro anoys me
07:25:09 <oren> how does it annoy you? the event system?
07:25:29 <Sgeo> Ok, why do identify so closely with a character from a comic that only has disturbed characters?
07:26:03 <oren> Sgeo: which comic/character?
07:26:17 * Sgeo doesn't really want to answer that
07:27:51 <roasted42> oren: well, I currently just prefer sdl2, the naming of the functions are a bit wacky in allegro
07:28:56 <oren> also, allegro5 is wildly different from allegro4
07:29:30 <oren> i didn't like allegro 4 atall
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07:43:59 <Sgeo> "It's pretty clearly visible by really great players in the chess world. In fact, the current reigning #1 chess champion, and highest rated player of all time, Magnus Carlsen, once said that playing a computer is like playing an idiot who beats you every time. Computers just play what seems to be atrocious moves, but always meander into a winning position somehow."
07:46:21 * oerjan waves a small norwegian flag
07:48:50 <roasted42> I've been living in Gauteng, South Africa for 31 yrs, and I just have to say, DAMN -> South Africans should not be allowed near liquor
07:49:35 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0
07:49:40 <oerjan> roasted42: you should soak the flag in liquor before burning it, then
07:54:41 <Sgeo> I already know how he does it because of Reddit comment :(
07:55:54 <int-e> Sgeo: how many players are there, total? 18?
07:56:16 <int-e> (I'm saving bandwidth here, not going to watch it)
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07:59:48 <Sgeo> 9 not including Darren
08:00:24 <Sgeo> Ok I don't know how he did -that-
08:01:21 <oerjan> darn he didn't explain the number of pieces trick
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08:02:42 <oerjan> the rest was exactly what i thought, i think conway explained that trick the one time i saw him speaking
08:03:05 <oerjan> (it's connected to his game addition)
08:03:30 <oerjan> it's possible i've seen this video before...
08:07:44 <int-e> Sgeo: wait, how many games did he win?
08:08:07 <int-e> (well, I'd expect a +1 score)
08:08:17 <Sgeo> Won 4, lost 3, tied 2
08:08:29 <int-e> Right. That's in line with the theory.
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08:09:05 <int-e> Four blacks, Five whites, and one of the white players is in on the trick, a pre-arranged win, while the other games are pair-wise identical.
08:09:36 <int-e> (err, the extra player would probably play black, doesn't matter though)
08:10:03 <oerjan> int-e: the extra player wasn't actually in on the trick, according to the explanation - he just chose the weakest one
08:11:17 <oerjan> ok it's pretty clear that the method he claims to have used to win did not give him any room for manipulating the number of pieces at the end
08:12:13 <oerjan> so i think he must have switched the notes at some point
08:14:42 <oerjan> rogier voogt's explanation in the comments seems good
08:15:21 <oren> https://gist.github.com/orenwatson/5c1e96a7c791cea21eef
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08:26:22 <oren> so the question is is there a better way to choose the replacements
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08:31:21 <oerjan> <oren> would /// still be turing complete if there was a limit on how long the /x/y/ are allowed to be? <-- hm i _think_ so, assuming the limit is big enough to contain the main program for a BCT interpreter, then the unbounded data itself could be made self-copying in smaller pieces.
08:32:19 <oren> oerjan: i see... i don't think my decompressor is TC then.
08:32:58 <oerjan> there might be ways to break up the program into smaller copying pieces too.
08:33:38 <oren> hmm... i think replacing the round counter with a prepended zero will also help
08:33:57 <Jafet> That encoder is probably worse than gzip
08:34:13 <oren> well of course
08:35:37 <oren> especially since it onlysupports up to 255 replacements
08:35:44 <oren> i am fixing that tho
08:36:50 <Jafet> Even if you implement this algorithm properly, it will probably still be worse than gzip
08:37:23 <oren> because gzip acts on bit level
08:37:44 <Jafet> Even if you use bitstrings
08:38:07 <oren> i don't think this can be used with bitstrings tho
08:38:44 <oren> but it has some properties
08:39:17 <oren> in particular, an incompressible part of the string will stay exactly the same, even readble
08:40:03 <oerjan> oren: one problem is that with no internal \ escaping, it becomes harder to prevent a substitution from acting on copies of itself
08:40:17 <Jafet> Most compression algorithms should have that property
08:40:23 <oerjan> because now it literally contains the string it substitutes
08:40:40 <Jafet> (It's the best thing to do to a string that cannot be compressed)
08:41:07 <oerjan> it's a very essential feature for the way i've written /// programs so far
08:42:05 <oren> oerjan: interesting observation
08:43:07 <Jafet> Well, you probably don't want substitutions to be recursive
08:43:55 <Jafet> That would prevent a substitution if decoding it would be ambiguous
08:45:28 <Jafet> Anyway, the reason it won't be better than gzip is that substitutions aren't windowed, so it can't adapt to the data distribution
08:45:53 <oren> I am not attempting to be better than gzip
08:46:33 <oren> i am attempting to be cooler than gzip
08:48:09 <Jafet> Ok. Being slower and less efficient makes it hard though
08:49:56 <oren> gzip outputs relatively opaque binary data, which can't be understood easily in a hex editor. my algorithm's output is byte-based which helps with that (i also have a byte-based LZW implementation somewhere)
08:50:50 <Jafet> I imagine you could make a binary editor that understands gzip streams
08:53:28 <Jafet> Also, picking the best-scoring match might not give you the smallest result in the end
08:53:37 <Jafet> I don't remember whether this is actually true
08:54:01 <oren> that is an issue. i don't know what the best heuristic for choosing string is
08:55:59 <Sgeo> "and temperatures in the winter can plunge to 40 degrees below (Fahrenheit)"
08:58:57 <int-e> Ah. Fooled by Google.
08:59:33 <int-e> Google must have a secret plan of nudging me towards enabling Javascript.
08:59:33 <Sgeo> I thought -40F=-40C, what do you mean it's not?
09:00:38 <int-e> Sigh, it's "units" that I can't use properly
09:02:40 <int-e> I have to enter tempF(-40) and ask for tempC.
09:03:06 <oren> degrees celsius isn't even a real unit
09:03:17 <int-e> `` units 'tempF(-40)' tempC
09:03:43 <oren> they can't be meaningfully added or subtracted
09:03:52 <int-e> `` units '-40degF' degC # what I tried, erroneously
09:03:52 <HackEgo> units: invalid option -- '4' \ Usage: units [option] ['from-unit' 'to-unit'] \ \ -h, --help print this help and exit \ -c, --check check that all units reduce to primitive units \ --check-verbose like --check, but lists units as they are checked \ --verbose-check so you can find units that cause endless l
09:04:29 <int-e> `` units -- '-40degF' degC
09:04:38 <int-e> the multiplication should've tipped me off.
09:05:36 <int-e> `` units -- '-40degR' K
09:05:54 <oerjan> oren: i think it's affine unit hth
09:06:15 <oerjan> (also, when do you even add kelvin anyway)
09:07:06 <oerjan> kelvin temperatures, that is. you can of course add a kelvin temperature to a kelvin difference.
09:07:41 <oerjan> but afaik kelvin is almost affine even if it has a genuine zero point
09:08:14 <oerjan> (i'm hoping for someone to quote a formula to disprove me, btw)
09:08:48 <oren> i dunno any formulæ
09:09:20 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_constant relates absolute zero temperature to a zero kinetic energy, under "average translational kinetic energy"
09:09:57 <oerjan> int-e: i mean a formula which adds kelvin temperatures hth
09:10:13 <int-e> oerjan: I know. I was going to add that this still isn't done there.
09:10:23 <int-e> But one could add energies ;-)
09:12:24 <int-e> oerjan: but it's the only property I know that's not translation-invariant.
09:13:33 <oren> ok, so now it supports unlimited replacements
09:13:57 <oren> each of limited length
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09:17:55 <oren> SLEEP? ARE YOU CRAZY? LETS GET UP FOR MIDNIGHT DINNER
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09:24:15 <Sgeo> "The North Korean newspapers liked to run “human interest” stories about heroic citizens who lost their lives rescuing the portraits from fire or flood."
09:25:53 <oren> the Kim family are basically their version of God, so this is not surprising to me
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10:09:12 <oren> in REGXY what happens if a line has stuff after its final /
10:15:45 <nyuszika7h> (just kidding, never heard about REGXY)
10:16:15 <oren> well the wiki does not say what happens so i'll just have my implementation ignore it
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10:29:04 <fizzie> Clearly it's a syntax error.
10:29:29 <fizzie> The wiki says "syntax is X", and X does not include that.
10:30:38 <oren> ok. i'll output an error. I'm implementing it in C++
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11:19:01 <oren> Attention stupid standard authors: if your class includes a bit field of flags, please assign particular bits to particular flags.
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12:19:52 <oren> I have found a better heuristic
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12:22:42 <oren> (Well, technically the same heuristic, but a better way of optimizing over it)
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12:36:09 <oren> the results are worse. that means clealy my heuristic is wrong'
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12:43:34 <oren> so i'll try different functions of the length and number of occurrences...
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15:18:17 <lambdabot> CYQB 281500Z 24011G17KT 5SM -DZ BR BKN010 OVC030 02/02 A2962 RMK ST6SC2 SLP033
15:18:40 <boily> +2. always +2. the whole week it's +2. I WANT SNOOOOOOOOW!
15:19:06 <lambdabot> EDDL 281450Z 01005KT 9999 SCT020 M00/M05 Q1030 NOSIG
15:20:35 <boily> hmm... what was it again?
15:21:46 <HackEgo> A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.
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16:17:22 <lambdabot> EFHK 281550Z 35008KT 9999 -SN OVC009 M10/M12 Q1021 BECMG FEW009
16:18:43 <lambdabot> EGLL 281550Z 35004KT 9999 FEW034 04/M02 Q1034 NOSIG
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18:00:41 <vanila> http://boingboing.net/2010/04/15/colossal-turing-mach.html
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20:46:08 <Sgeo> What is with North Korea and rice cookers?
20:46:34 <Sgeo> I get that South Korean rice cookers might be found objectionable, but are there not rice cookers manufactured elsewhere?
20:47:19 <Taneb> I... do not associate rice cookers with North Korea
20:49:44 <Sgeo> At one point at least, it seems like they were banned, but I can't seem to find the relevent quote online
20:50:40 <oren> god damn it why does a WRONG algorithm achive better compression
20:51:09 <Sgeo> "They would look for people who used more than their quota of electricity, a lightbulb brighter than 40 watts, a hot plate, or a rice cooker."
20:53:44 <Sgeo> I guess sounds more like an electricity thing? But apparently South Korean rice cookers are a symbol of status
20:53:48 <Sgeo> coppro: no legal trade maybe
20:54:04 <coppro> but where would they get a rice cooker from? options are SK and China
20:54:16 <Taneb> coppro, I thought NK had some trade with China?
20:54:29 <Sgeo> I was under the impression that imports from China are probably not frowned on as much
20:54:41 <Sgeo> http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=3442
20:54:46 <coppro> yes, there's a fair bit of trade with China
20:55:30 <Taneb> I associate rice cookers with being a fire hazard in student accomodation
20:56:51 <scoofy> had many rice cooker fires?
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21:01:20 <Taneb> scoofy, no, but they went on and on about them at the fire safety briefing
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21:37:07 <Taneb> Can anyone recommend an RCA -> VGA converter?
21:40:15 <fizzie> That's slightly ambiguous.
21:40:36 <fizzie> I mean, both component and composite video cables tend to use RCA connectors.
21:40:49 <fizzie> (On the other hand, I don't have any suggestions about either.)
21:41:51 <Taneb> I just want to be able to play ocarina of time on my monitor
21:42:10 <Taneb> I don't really know what I need
21:42:49 <fizzie> I've been using just a regular analog TV card I had lying around to plug my old PS1 to the computer, then open a live view of the video capture on the monitor.
21:43:10 <fizzie> But that's kind of convoluted.
21:44:24 <fizzie> If you want to plug it in directly to a monitor, what you need probably depends on what sort of inputs it has.
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21:46:57 <fizzie> I think you get composite (the one with a single, typically yellow RCA connector) and S-Video (it uses a mini-DIN kind of thing) out of a N64.
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21:50:25 <Taneb> I'll have to look into it
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21:53:41 <fizzie> Some computer monitors I've encountered have had regular video inputs (like composite and S-video), though most probably not. (Especially new ones, since it's all digital all the way these days.)
21:56:14 <Taneb> If I can find a relatively cheap monitor with both RCA or SCART and VGA or DVI, I would now be sorely tempted
21:57:16 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen any with a SCART (it's so bulky). But I distinctly recall a monitor that had (I think) VGA, DVI, composite video and S-Video as inputs.
21:57:42 <fizzie> (Although it might have also been a CRT with VGA, the 5xBNC thing and those video inputs.)
21:58:11 <Taneb> I'll have to have a closer look at what cables I need
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21:59:38 <Taneb> Yeah, composite analogue video
22:00:09 <fizzie> I don't think you're going to find a new monitor with those inputs, though you might find an old one. Still, I'm sure you can get a reasonable cheap composite-video-to-VGA conversion box easier.
22:01:39 <fizzie> Or you could get a SGI Indy, it's got a composite video input (IIRC) and I'm sure it'd be worth a lot of street cred.
22:05:41 <fizzie> (If you want to have something that's possibly slightly more future-proof, you might pick up a thing that goes from composite video to, say, a HDMI out. There doesn't seem to be any price difference between those that generate a VGA output and those that do digital, since it needs an active conversion process anyway. But I don't have recommendations for those either.)
22:07:30 <Taneb> Would something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000P3UB24 work?
22:08:33 <fizzie> That's for taking a VGA output (from a PC) and plugging to a TV that has a composite video input.
22:08:40 <fizzie> "Connect TV-output enabled video cards to your TV's RCA or S-Video connector"
22:09:09 <Taneb> Even with a female RCA port?
22:09:25 <fizzie> Yes. Composite video cables have a male connector at both ends.
22:09:40 <fizzie> Just look at the product description.
22:09:42 <fizzie> "If your video card or controller supports TV-out function, you can use this cable adapter to connect your PC's VGA port and your TV's S-Video or RCA-composite port.
22:09:47 <fizzie> This cable does not add TV-output functionality. If your video card/controller doesn't already have this function, this cable WILL NOT WORK for connecting your VGA output to a TV input."
22:11:43 <Taneb> That says nothing about whether it works for connecting RCA output to VGA inpuut
22:12:05 <fizzie> Presumably it would say something if it did. (It won't.)
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22:12:18 <fizzie> You need an active conversion step in there, not just a passive adapter like that.
22:13:02 <fizzie> Okay, judging from the questions I guess that's a possible point of confusion.
22:13:07 <Taneb> I don't really know what I am looking for
22:13:59 <fizzie> Well, it will probably look like a box.
22:14:40 <fizzie> Unfortunately, apparently you can also get box-looking things for the other way around.
22:15:41 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, what you're looking for is something like http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prosteruk-DVD-Composite-S-Video-Converter/dp/B00EXPJVRQ/ref=sr_1_14 or for the digital version http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mini-Composite-CVBS-Converter-1080P/dp/B00HV9PBM0/ref=sr_1_2
22:16:06 <Taneb> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00D1JMAOG/ ?
22:16:09 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: the first options I could find, and should not be construed as a recommendation. Although I think I might have seen that latter one somewhere.)
22:16:45 <fizzie> That's pretty similar to my first link.
22:17:33 <fizzie> In fact, I think it's the very same thing except with a different (re)branding.
22:18:04 <fizzie> I'm sure you could find a video nerd to tell you which box has the best upscaler.
22:20:44 <zzo38> About "Attention stupid standard authors: if your class includes a bit field of flags, please assign particular bits to particular flags." who failed to assign the particular bits to particular flags?
22:21:33 <fizzie> We can deduce that a stupid standard author did.
22:21:40 <zzo38> Yes, but what standard?
22:28:25 <fizzie> Taneb: Incidentally, the HDMI version has but a single question: "Q: Will this allow me to use my N64 on my HD PC monitor?" "A: Yes. I am using it right now for that very purpose! Don't forget that you will need to sort something for sound though. (Unless you have a PC monitor with built in speakers of course.)"
22:29:02 <Taneb> I cannot remember if one of my monitors has HDMI input, but I think it does
22:30:09 <Taneb> So I will bookmark that until I get back to York on the 5th
22:31:15 <fizzie> The HDMI box I picked up is composite-only (no S-Video), though. But if you don't have a S-Video cable for the N64 anyway, maybe that doesn't matter.
22:31:19 <fizzie> To "sort" out the sound, you can probably just plug the white/red RCA audio connectors from the N64 AV cable to wherever you want the sound to go, if your monitor does not do anything sensible with the HDMI input's audio side.
22:32:43 <fizzie> (This thing about putting speakers in everything is strange. My workstation at work has a built-in speaker somewhere inside the box, but also in the monitor, so I can make both the box and the monitor speak.)
22:32:52 <fizzie> (The monitor speaks more loudly, though.)
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23:14:25 <fizzie> Taneb: Hey, is the `thanks thing a Look Around You reference?
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23:23:13 <Solace> how does one resolve stack overflows
23:23:47 <Solace> This is just a small question As this is my first time having one
23:32:50 <fizzie> Use automatic storage duration less, too.
23:35:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you use for photo hosting?
23:36:07 <Vorpal> I have been taking more photos recently (no panoramas though)
23:36:37 <Vorpal> I would like some sort of geo tagging integration, perhaps showing location of photo on open street map or something
23:40:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I use Piwigo for our local for-relatives vacation photos, but it's not good. Neither was Gallery2. For the latter I had a handcrafted map thing. A few things I've just put to Flickr.
23:41:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, so no real recommendation then?
23:42:12 <fizzie> All the run-your-own-gallery software I've found has sucked, more or less. Though they do *work*.
23:42:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, any static generator ones?
23:42:58 <Vorpal> I prefer to generate stuff statically, much less of a hassle. And I want to keep php off my server
23:43:17 <Vorpal> Python or erlang or whatever I can deal with. Not php
23:43:38 <fizzie> I only remember trying out JAlbum or something, but it wasn't too good either. Also did work.
23:43:56 <fizzie> Haven't evaluated those thoroughly.
23:44:01 <Vorpal> what part is "not good" about these in general?
23:44:15 <Vorpal> If it works and isn't slow or such, what is the issue?
23:45:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I forgot what you use to generate the blog at zem.fi. Custom?
23:46:15 <fizzie> Both Gallery2 and Piwigo are horrible messes of PHP with terrible admin UIs and (especially for Piwigo) logic. It's also real slow when generating images.
23:46:50 <fizzie> JAlbum was just very limited. But this was quite a while back.
23:47:14 <Vorpal> Is jalbum static pre-generation?
23:47:30 <fizzie> zem.fi is custom, zem.fi/bfjoust is nanoc.
23:47:48 <fizzie> I may remember the name wrong.
23:49:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is up with zemhill_'s nick btw?
23:50:48 <fizzie> I don't think the bot framework tries to regain nick if it's not available at connect time.
23:51:06 <fizzie> So probably just a freenode hiccup.
23:53:07 <fizzie> I haven't had time to check if it's known bugs are still there after a VPS change, been kind of busy with this move stuff lately.
23:53:48 <fizzie> Switched from Tilaa to DigitalOcean.
23:54:09 <fizzie> Only have good comments for both, really.
23:55:32 <fizzie> Not that my VPS needs are very extensive.
23:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, why the switch then?
23:57:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm pretty happy with linode atm btw
23:57:44 <Vorpal> Not that my site has much on it yet (https://vorpal.se/). That was why I was wondering about the album bit...
23:58:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was marginally cheaper for a bit more specs, and they had a new London datacenter, thought I'd give it a try. I think I had some further reasons too. Nothing very substantial.
23:59:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so our sites share cities then now