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01:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41600&oldid=41590 * Rottytooth * (+470) /* Clarifications? */ response to Keymaker
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03:49:58 <zzo38> What happens if somehow an aura loses its Enchant ability? What happens if something that isn't an aura (such as an Equipment) gains enchant ability?
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03:51:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Perhaps you can ask in #mtgrules on EFNet.
03:54:50 <Sgeo> I wrote this code two days ago. I do not remember why I have two arguments with confusingly similar names.
03:55:15 <zzo38> What is the host name and port number for EFNet?
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03:55:51 <shachaf> I think irc.efnet.org:6667 should work.
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03:58:52 <zzo38> OK it looks like working.
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03:59:18 <Eiel> yes, my first time !!!
03:59:27 <int-e> looks to me like it's still an enchantment that is now allowed to enchant any object or player.
03:59:43 <HackEgo> Eiel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:00:14 <int-e> zzo38: but can you actually make that happen?
04:00:14 <Eiel> thank you elliott! greetings!
04:01:36 <zzo38> int-e: I thought it might be but an unsure, and it doesn't answer the second question. I do not know if anything can actually make that happen.
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04:04:41 <int-e> zzo38: "The enchant ability restricts what an Aura spell can target and what an Aura can enchant. " <-- if it isn't an aura that doesn't seem to do anything.
04:05:39 <int-e> but I agree that it's not perfectly clear.
04:06:45 <shachaf> I think if an aura lost "Enchant" it would make sense for it to be able to be able to enchant anything, because "Enchant X. Enchant Y." means it can only attach something which is both an X and a Y.
04:07:03 <shachaf> So for instance it would be able to enchant permanents, players, cards in graveyards, etc.
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04:11:50 * int-e boggles at the thought of enchanting an ability on the stack...
04:14:03 <zzo38> Yes, if it can enchant anything then clearly it could do that; I knew that part already.
04:14:33 <Sgeo> Woohoo, only one small mistake in major code change, other than that, worked on first try!
04:15:33 <shachaf> whoa, want to play prismata?
04:16:02 <zzo38> If you enchanted something on the stack, I would believe that as soon as it resolves or is countered, the enchantment is removed as a state based action, isn't it?
04:16:38 <shachaf> But you could make e.g. counterspells be enchantments with that mechanism.
04:17:24 <Sgeo> shachaf: right now, want to refactor a bit to get rid of the poorly named "place", which is easily confused with "dest"
04:17:58 <Sgeo> Or maybe some other shuffling around, putting the warning+copyright below the important stuff or something
04:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Scoppini * New user account
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04:32:09 <Sgeo> shachaf: ok, I'll play
04:32:44 <Sgeo> After you're done with Master Bot
04:34:10 <shachaf> whoa, does it let you see my game?
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04:48:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: What are all those engineers for?
04:48:37 <shachaf> Why block 4 with Wall+Steelsplitter instead of 2 engineers+Wall?
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04:55:48 <Sgeo> The engineers were for a vague hope that maybe I could burst build drones, so that your deadeyes can't take out all of them in a single turn, so I could get more ossifieds
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04:56:14 <shachaf> Why did you build two walls after I built a steelsplitter?
04:56:32 <shachaf> That seems way overdefensive. A wall just by itself can absorb 2 damage.
04:56:48 <Sgeo> I may have thought it made sense to prepare defensively. Probably not.
04:57:06 <Sgeo> Please do not assume that I am good at Prismata
04:58:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Oh, they don't deal in theoretical questions, apparently.
04:59:52 <Sgeo> If there are unspecified situations that can occur, does that mean that Magic is allowed to eat your laundry?
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05:10:25 <zzo38> But I am interested even in theoretical questions.
05:16:09 <oren> so you can enchant a creature's tap ability, without enchanting the creature?
05:17:49 <oren> most of this stuff doesn't fit with the way I played Magic in grade 7
05:21:17 <oren> see we used a physical STACK of cards
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05:31:22 <zzo38> No I think you would enchant it when activated, the enchantment goes away when it resolves
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05:45:04 <zzo38> Since they don't want theoretical questions I may ask some more on here: What happens if an aura has living weapon ability?
05:46:21 <shachaf> I think the answer to many of your questions is that it never happens, so the rules don't specify the behavior.
05:46:43 <shachaf> In this case, though: 702.91a. Living weapon is a triggered ability. "Living weapon" means "When this Equipment enters the battlefield, put a 0/0 black Germ creature token onto the battlefield, then attach this Equipment to it."
05:47:22 <zzo38> I read that already.
05:47:49 <shachaf> I guess "this Equipment" is meaningless, actually. Or means the same as "this permanent".
05:48:26 <zzo38> I would think the latter, but it still leaves a few things unclear to me.
05:48:54 <shachaf> It's the latter, I think that's specified somewhere.
05:50:05 <zzo38> I think so too, but it still doesn't fully answer my question.
05:50:29 <shachaf> Yes. I don't have an answer to your question.
05:51:02 <shachaf> Other than that the rules make it reasonably clear that they don't intend to print it on non-Equipment cards. And I don't know of a way you could get it onto cards otherwise.
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06:28:18 <zzo38> I looked at the rules; it looks like to me that it first is attached to whatever it targeted, and then it tries to become attached to the Germ token if possible. Is that correct?
06:29:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe #mtg on EFNet would be more accepting of theoretical questions.
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06:34:31 <oren> i was looking through the list of banned cards, and "Falling Star" seems out of place.
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06:43:48 <b_jonas> "< int-e> looks to me like it's still an enchantment that is now allowed to enchant any object or player." - I thought it was like that since Time Spiral, when they added an aura that enchants a card in the gy.
06:44:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: "What happens if something that isn't an aura (such as an Equipment) gains enchant ability?" - hmm, there was some way to get an aura equipment in some recent set I think
06:46:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: but as for an Aura losing its "enchant" ability, I suspect that's actually impossible in vanilla M:tG, it's only possible in your variant where creature auras don't get removed, but I could be wrong
06:47:00 <b_jonas> could you animate and then humiliate an aura without getting state-based actions resolve in between?
06:48:08 <b_jonas> hmm, actually, you'd need to animate it, humiliate it, then unanimate it, which is probably impossible
06:54:03 <zzo38> Are there any Magic: the Gathering puzzles involving games of more than two players? If so, are there any that require conceding in order to solve the puzzle?
06:55:33 <b_jonas> it's not hard to set up a situation where conceding will make your team win, but I don't know if there's a good puzzle made from this
06:55:58 <zzo38> I actually have a few ideas relating to such things.
06:58:03 <b_jonas> "What happens if an aura has living weapon ability?" -- dunno, but check the set faq and rulings and stuff for the sets in the Theros block, iirc think that was the block where it was first possible to get equipment auras
06:59:03 <b_jonas> all I remember is that it could somehow happen to get aura equipment and that they're attached to only one object that both equipment-related and aura-related abilities refer to
06:59:47 <b_jonas> I don't quite remember how it could happen though
07:04:51 <b_jonas> hmm, can't find that reference to aura equipment
07:13:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: that situation I described with conceding in multiplayer to have your team win the game might not work:
07:13:24 <b_jonas> "810.8b If a player concedes, his or her team leaves the game immediately. That team loses the game."
07:17:28 <b_jonas> however, you could still try to concede to influence which of your opponents win
07:19:20 <b_jonas> but that's trivial and doesn't need any rules shenenigans
07:21:17 <zzo38> I was thinking a game following rule 808, not 810.
07:21:57 <zzo38> Therefore, that rule won't apply.
07:37:07 <zzo38> Is 810 the most common team game? Well, I prefer 808.
07:48:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, now I'm no longer sure getting a non-creature aura without enchant is impossible in vanilla
07:48:33 <b_jonas> I'll have to investigate whether it's possible
07:49:34 <b_jonas> also, as for rules questions, I'd recommend against efnet #mtgrules for these kinds of crazy theoretical rules questions. they're a fine channel for ordinary rules questions, about situations that can reasonably come up in games, but not really for these kinds of esoteric rules situations.
07:53:44 <b_jonas> Is it possible to set up a combo with Time Machine that lets you win all future games with the same opponent unless he pulls off a turn zero win?
07:57:52 <b_jonas> Hmm no, it isn't. The opponent could concede very early next game to break the loop.
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08:59:39 <Sgeo> STM. Totally a stimulant drink drunk by neurons. http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=3105
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09:22:31 <oren> my short term memory is literally a stimulant drink, especially at exam time
09:33:56 <elliott> @tell Vorpal http://www.rutschle.net/tech/sslh.shtml
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09:48:44 <b_jonas> In windows 7, if I am moving a windows by dragging its title bar, and a new window is mapped to the desktop, that sometimes aborts the window move, but not always. What decides whether it aborts that?
09:49:16 <Jafet> Grabbing focus, perhaps
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09:49:59 <b_jonas> Jafet: ah yes, that's possible
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10:12:40 <oerjan> girl genius, WHY AREN'T YOU UPDATING
10:33:20 <int-e> oerjan: they're out of ideas for paper dolls?
10:34:40 <oerjan> that seems unlikely since these dolls are based on an already existing side story
10:35:30 <int-e> Yes, I did take that into account. I was trying to come up with a worst case scenario.
10:37:00 <oerjan> they still need to get through gil, tarvek and possibly the jägers
10:37:40 <oerjan> ...no, _certainly_ the jägers.
10:37:49 <int-e> maybe they needed to remind their kids of who their parents are
10:38:04 <oerjan> ah yes. i remember that.
10:38:08 <int-e> (there was this "who are you people" gag a while back..)
10:39:05 <int-e> 'course you do. you tend to remember most of GG better than I :P
10:40:28 <Taneb> I kind of want to do a Girl Genius cosplay
10:40:35 <Taneb> The issue is, how to make it recognizable?
10:40:43 <oerjan> i just reread most of the cinderella story, although that was because it was accidentally linked from an old forum comment in the yafgc forum (it turned out the story had a shoutout to them) that got bumped up.
10:40:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gamemanj * New user account
10:41:02 <Taneb> I don't really have the figure to cosplay Agatha. The only thing I can think of is Gil in his Schmott Guy hat
10:41:39 <oerjan> Taneb: i recall seeing some cosplay of maxim on their blog (also that via an ancient link)
10:41:55 <oerjan> it was the cosplayer's blog, i think
10:42:47 <oerjan> also the cosplayer was a girl
10:43:11 <oerjan> maxim _is_ canonically a bishounen jäger
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10:44:14 * oerjan tries to remember what Taneb looks like again
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10:45:16 <oerjan> apparently there's a guy called Raif Taneb
10:45:21 <Taneb> oerjan, I am just under six foot, skinny, brown hair, not short but by no means long, very noticeable eyebrows
10:45:49 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't really have the ability to connect looks and written desciptions
10:47:20 <oerjan> _something_ tells me this guy isn't you https://www.youtube.com/user/nathanvdoorn :P
10:47:49 <oerjan> (trying to find your esoprogramming video, your name/nick doesn't seem like the best search word)
10:49:10 <oerjan> why does "esolang" give all these russian hits
10:49:11 <Taneb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bekftEG3j4
10:49:30 <Taneb> Heh, I forgot about that
10:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41601&oldid=40700 * Gamemanj * (+251) /* Announcements */
10:51:43 <oerjan> hm i found that too but with a different id
10:52:35 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, it was uploaded twice
10:52:55 <Taneb> First to the person who filmed it's account, then copied to HackSoc's
10:55:40 <int-e> oerjan: Zeetha, too...
10:56:56 <oerjan> int-e: hm she wasn't in the part of the story i read
10:57:25 <oerjan> oh wait she was the godmother wasn't she
10:58:14 <int-e> though maybe they'll skip her; she had only that one outfit, I'm afraid
10:58:15 <oerjan> i started at the point where the yafgc shoutout was, which was after that
10:59:57 <oerjan> Taneb: i was thinking about moloch von zinzer but then you need more beard
11:00:05 <Taneb> oerjan, I can do more beard
11:10:13 <int-e> oerjan: interesting, I had missed the fact that the science fair was another concentration of shoutouts. (I was aware of the one when Agatha enters Mechanicsburg)
11:11:12 <oerjan> don't worry, i probably miss most shoutouts in general :P
11:12:09 <oerjan> occasionally i notice some, or notice something which just has to be a shoutout but i don't know to what
11:12:23 <int-e> sure. it just means that I didn't read the texts carefully that time (it was just a side story after all...)
11:13:36 <oerjan> did you know (of course not) that when i first saw the 3 jägers, i thought they were shoutouts to elfquest characters?
11:14:47 <int-e> oerjan: did you find http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ShoutOut/GirlGenius ?
11:14:50 <oerjan> i thought maxim looked vaguely like rayek, ognian vaguely like cutter and dimo vaguely like a troll
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11:25:35 <int-e> oh wow, the companion cube is hard to recognize...
11:26:03 <int-e> ( http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20141024 )
11:26:03 <idris-bot> (input):1:5: error: expected: "!!",
11:26:21 <int-e> idris-bot: I forgive you
11:28:05 <oerjan> sometimes i regret suggesting the ( prefix
11:28:29 <oerjan> but bots _shouldn't_ give multiline responses to unknown commands, anyway.
11:28:51 <int-e> > let f x = x x in x x x x x
11:28:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.Expr.Expr
11:29:02 <oerjan> that's not an unknown command
11:29:05 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 ~ t1 -> t
11:29:05 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include u :: t1 -> t (bound at <interactive>:1:3)
11:29:24 <oerjan> vanila: there's already a )
11:29:30 <int-e> (idris-bot doesn't trigger so easily)
11:29:58 <int-e> (but I tend to put spaces around URLs to help copy&pasting.)
11:30:06 <oerjan> vanila: well the bot isn't actually _here_ any more.
11:30:27 <oerjan> vanila: the _reason_ i suggested ( was to balance out that ) in fungot's prefix list
11:30:27 <fungot> oerjan: this is just what makes sense
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11:30:38 <int-e> oerjan: I think it's fine.
11:31:01 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘T.for’ (imported from Data.Traversable)Not in scope: ‘wfø...
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11:31:17 <oerjan> ok i guess lambdabot isn't entirely innocent.
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11:31:36 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell
11:32:36 <Jafet> > text $ replicate 10 '\n'
11:33:15 <Jafet> > text $ concat $ replicate 10 "Terminated\n"
11:33:31 <oerjan> > text $ replicate 10 '\n'
11:34:15 <oerjan> it strips final newlines, and only then decides whether there's no output
11:34:58 <int-e> > text $ replicate 1024 '\n' ++ "a"
11:35:04 <int-e> > text $ replicate 1023 '\n' ++ "a"
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11:36:15 <J_Arcane> I think I need to learn more Haskell.
11:36:19 <int-e> well, not the 1024 thing anyway.
11:36:39 <oerjan> so, step 1: strip newlines 2: decide whether it's empty so print Terminated. 3: strip whitespace 4: decide whether it's empty so print nothing
11:36:56 <HackEgo> [U+00C2 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX]
11:37:07 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘text’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ)
11:37:56 <int-e> I bet it's a feature ;-)
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12:14:39 <oren> according to my analysis, the best type of pokemon is fairy/steel
12:14:55 <oren> the worst is ice/rock
12:14:59 <ais523> both of which are in fact widly used in various metagame
12:15:11 <ais523> and yes, ice/rock is absolutely terrible except as a glass cannon setup
12:15:18 <ais523> it's not too bad wrt coverage, but it's somewhat redundant
12:15:58 <zzo38> I think I saw somewhere what is the worst single type in Pokemon Red they calculated by computer, the result is rocks.
12:16:14 <oren> basically i wrote a program to evaluate the type combos according to how many types are good against them
12:16:15 <J_Arcane> ais523: yes, but what purpose in existing if you fail to provide function?
12:16:20 <oerjan> if that didn't help we'll just have to kill you instea
12:16:44 <ais523> J_Arcane: well if you don't know what your purpose is, you can make it your purpose to find out
12:17:18 <ais523> oren: it strikes me as odd that someone would a) be the type of person to do that, and yet b) include fairy (even dark and steel are a bit weird)
12:18:10 <vanila> I use ghost type in pokemon emerand
12:18:11 <oren> well everyone knows in the old games only psychic and dragon were worth fielding
12:18:23 <ais523> vanila: your ???? is lacking context, it would describe pretty much everything that happens in this channel
12:18:33 <J_Arcane> I tried to beat platinum with an all ghost team.
12:18:42 <ais523> the perfect team for Pokémon Red/Blue was solved quite a while ago
12:18:46 <J_Arcane> platinum was wicked fucking hard.
12:18:52 <ais523> unfortunately I can't remember all of it offhand
12:19:08 <ais523> Tauros, Chansey, Exeggcutor, um…
12:19:18 <ais523> either Rhydon or Golem, they're so close it makes no real difference
12:19:30 <ais523> (because you absolutely have to have a zapdos counter or you just lose)
12:19:36 <oren> everyone i knew had 3 Alakazam, Mewtwo, Dragonite, Articuno
12:19:44 <oren> or womething like that
12:19:54 <ais523> oh, this is normally assuming that mewtwo is banned and you can't use duplicates
12:20:06 <ais523> otherwise, the best team is probably either 6 mewtwo or 6 tauros, they're cloes
12:20:46 <oren> why not duplicates?
12:21:00 <oren> duplicates of non-legendray are easy toget
12:21:04 <ais523> it's just a commonly enforced rule, partly because so many people assume it's a rule
12:21:12 <ais523> and even 1 tauros is pretty hard to get, really, in RB
12:22:20 <ais523> so the assumption is "if you can get anything you want…"
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12:23:47 <oren> When dark came, Alakazam was no longer a evil killing machine, i was sad...
12:24:09 <ais523> I think Alakazam might also be on the perfect team
12:24:28 <ais523> apparently, mostly as the Pokémon that the opponent puts to sleep
12:24:37 <ais523> (another commonly enforced rule is that you can't put more than one opposing Pokémon to sleep)
12:26:09 <ais523> but Alakazam has plenty of counters even in RB
12:26:21 <ais523> e.g. it can't do anything to Chansey, who will paralyse it
12:26:27 <ais523> and then it'll die to everything
12:26:33 <oren> Hmm... that is pretty far from the way i played it in primary school... Alakazam was countered by Dargonite usually
12:27:01 <ais523> well we've had well over 10 years to solve the game
12:28:11 <oren> that's true. the days of mewtwo -> dragonite -> articuno -> charizard are over
12:28:21 <ais523> articuno is actually pretty bad
12:28:29 <oren> but kills dragonite
12:28:43 <ais523> or, hmm, no, it's not that bad
12:28:46 <ais523> misread the guide I'm using
12:29:01 <oren> and there aren't that many ice pokemon in RBY anyway
12:29:39 <vanila> the reprogrammed pokemon
12:29:47 <ais523> vanila: did you see the credits for that run?
12:30:04 <vanila> im not sure, i was talking about the one yesterday
12:30:17 <ais523> I'm partly responsible for it, is the point I was getting at
12:30:28 <vanila> that was really stunning
12:30:31 <ais523> so while everyone else was really happy watching it
12:30:41 <ais523> I was really nervous, hoping everything would work
12:30:54 <ais523> not everything did work, but enough did that we were able to pull off something spectacular anyway
12:31:19 <b_jonas> ais523: is this the tasbot?
12:31:28 <vanila> that would be very nerve-wracking
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12:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Musical notes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41602&oldid=41447 * TomPN * (-98) /* Syntax */
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12:31:57 <ais523> oren: so looking this up, articuno loses to starmie, which is the most common reason it isn't used much
12:32:08 <oren> I should redo my program to take into acount typical stats of a type combo
12:32:48 <vanila> ais523, how do you get involved in something like that?
12:33:03 <oren> articuno also loses to Mewtwo though... some people used lapras instead
12:33:39 <ais523> vanila: well dwangoAC organizes the TAS representation at AGDQ, and I've been working with him on another project for over a year now
12:34:10 <b_jonas> ais523: on a different note, after what zzo38 said, I'm now wondering about something in M:tG:
12:34:51 <b_jonas> Namely whether it's possible to get a situation where you have a non-creature aura without an "enchant" ability in play at a point when the game tries to determine what it can be legally enchanted to.
12:35:31 <b_jonas> The rules don't seem quite clear what would happen if that occurred, but I don't know if it's possible in first place.
12:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41603&oldid=41448 * TomPN * (-98) /* Loops */
12:36:56 <ais523> I think all the existing "lose all abilities" effects only apply to creatures, but you might be able to find one with an until-end-of-turn duration
12:37:11 <ais523> so I think it's doable
12:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quantum Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41604&oldid=41449 * TomPN * (-1) /* Quantum entanglement */
12:38:51 <J_Arcane> Wow. FPComplete is actually really cool.
12:41:05 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, Turn! nice, I didn't think of that
12:41:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RingCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41605&oldid=41428 * TomPN * (-56)
12:43:34 <int-e> b_jonas: oh "copy enchantment" is an interesting card, it's an enchantment without target (but a triggered ability.) In fact that card tickles the rules about targets in interesting ways - see the first ruling at http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83807
12:43:37 <b_jonas> ok, so how does that work? I animate the aura, cast Turn at it, then unanimate it, and its abilities remain lost until end of turn.
12:44:40 <b_jonas> and that strange state lasts long enough that I can even cast spells or try to reattach it with Simic Guildmage's ability
12:46:49 <int-e> b_jonas: Uhm, "An Aura that's also a creature can't enchant anything. If this occurs somehow, the Aura becomes unattached, then is put into its owner's graveyard." (as a state-based effect)
12:47:22 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but the question is what objects an aura without "enchant" can legally enchant,
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12:48:10 <b_jonas> int-e: the rules basically say that the "enchant" ability determines what an aura can legally attach to, with the exception that if the aura is a creature it can't be attached to anything, and that an aura can never be attached to itself legally
12:48:11 <int-e> The rules say that enchantments work on objects and players.
12:48:23 <int-e> and Enchant restricts that set.
12:48:24 <b_jonas> yes, object and player sorry
12:48:26 <ais523> you'd have to make it into a nonenchantment creature first
12:48:32 <ais523> then undo the type changing
12:48:42 <ais523> being an enchantment would be fine
12:48:53 <ais523> so maybe it isn't possible
12:49:24 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm... you have to make it non-aura temporarily? that might be easiest by rewriting it with a copy
12:49:39 <b_jonas> there might be an easier way:
12:49:55 <ais523> we don't have a "target permanent becomes a copy of another target permanent until end of combat", though (or some duration that's shorter than a turn)
12:50:02 <ais523> or "enchanted permanent is a copy of target permanent"
12:50:05 <b_jonas> just manifest an aura, then Turn it, then use the special action from manifest to turn it up so it becomes an auura
12:50:21 <ais523> b_jonas: doesn't work, manifest special action only works on creatures
12:50:31 <ais523> cards that are creatures on the front, that is
12:50:45 <ais523> oh, don't use the special ability
12:51:03 <ais523> that works on everything that's a creature on the back (i.e. everything), and not an instant or sorcery on the front
12:51:08 <b_jonas> can you overwrite a non-creature artifact enchantment with a copy somehow?
12:51:50 <b_jonas> well, I hope it's a special action like morph's
12:51:50 <oren> holy crap, mewtwo still has monstrous stats
12:51:56 <b_jonas> we won't know for sure until the setfaq comes out
12:52:45 <ais523> it is a special action, it says so in the mechanics preview article
12:52:51 <ais523> oren: have you seen mewtwoite x / mewtwoite y?
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12:53:54 <b_jonas> not only does the new mtg homepage no longer has an obvious link to a list of all set faqs; but also even though the pages of earlier sets link to their set FAQs, http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/card-set-archive/khans-of-tarkir doesn't link to a set faq.
12:54:15 <b_jonas> where's the Khans of Tarkir set FAQ, I hope they haven't discontinued set FAQs
12:54:30 <b_jonas> oh, it does link to the faq, just on a differnet place
12:55:11 <b_jonas> I'll have to download that
12:58:26 <oren> Also, why the hell isn't there a game in Orange Islands?
13:00:21 <b_jonas> ais523: there's another way, without face down permanents. animate a Mizzium Transreqliquat, activate its ability to copy an artifact aura, and as a reaction, cast Turn to the Transreliquat.
13:00:59 <b_jonas> but manifest, Turn, Break open is easier
13:01:06 <ais523> oh, the copy effect causes it to stop being a creature
13:01:27 <b_jonas> ais523: nah, you can just make it no longer be a creature at instant speed
13:01:35 <b_jonas> by destroying Animate Artifact
13:01:46 <b_jonas> you can animate and unanimate artifacts any time you like
13:02:00 <b_jonas> ok, not quite, but any time you can cast spells
13:02:33 <b_jonas> I can't load the Khans of Tarkir set faq
13:02:47 <b_jonas> guess I'll have to try again in the evening, the wizards website sucks
13:04:38 <b_jonas> sorry if I interrupted the pokemon conversation
13:04:50 <oren> nah this is more interesting
13:05:17 <oerjan> how dare you interrupt their off-topic conversation with another one
13:05:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: actually the mtg one is somewhat on-topic because it's about obfu-uses of M:tG, not normal uses
13:05:54 <ais523> ew can have multiple conversations at once
13:06:06 <b_jonas> I don't know if it counts as more on-topic than the pokemon one though
13:06:06 <ais523> oerjan: I'd claim http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow is ontopic
13:06:22 <ais523> even though writing that page required me to know about various obscure M:tG cards
13:07:41 <oren> someone should invent a tabletop game so complex it is possible to make the referees have to solve the halting problem
13:07:57 <b_jonas> oren: M:tG is already like that
13:08:05 <b_jonas> oren: because of its rules about infinite loops
13:08:14 <b_jonas> those rules, sadly, are also underspecified
13:08:40 <oren> oh shit i forgot about those... so they have to know whther the loop is infinite or not
13:08:46 <b_jonas> but you can imagine specifying them completely in an ideal world, but they still have to require to solve the halting problem
13:09:09 <b_jonas> oren: yes, and as the rest of M:tG is turing complete, those rules make the judges require to solve the halting problem in theory
13:09:32 <b_jonas> in practice, you might not be able to set up an interesting enoguh situation without running out of time or some other implementation limit first
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13:09:56 <b_jonas> in any case you may need a co-operating opponent
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13:10:11 <ais523> the only remaining thing to do is to somehow set it up in a tournament
13:10:38 <oren> and then grin and say "Problem, ref?"
13:10:42 <b_jonas> ais523: if you try that, they _might_ penalize you with an unsportsmanlike conduct or something
13:10:46 <ais523> you might be able to do it in Vintage; Slaver Control is a real deck there, and one of its win conditions involves taking control of all your opponent's turns
13:11:13 <b_jonas> ais523: it's easier to get a match with a co-operating opponent
13:11:16 <ais523> so all you'd need to do in your own deck is one copy of Research//Development, plus a sideboard containing cards necessary to set the combo up
13:11:20 <ais523> b_jonas: not under sanctioned conditions
13:11:32 <ais523> an alternative would be to set it up on Magic Online, get both players to pass the turn
13:11:55 <ais523> b_jonas: because there's a rule against allowing anything other than normal Magic play to determine the winner of a game
13:11:59 <b_jonas> ais523: um, I think Magic Online has different rules for infinite loops
13:12:18 <ais523> yes, it forces you to play all the turns out manually, and uses chess clocks to penalise you if you take too long
13:12:27 <ais523> however, there's a "skip responses until end of turn" button
13:12:36 <ais523> and the StackFlow construction is a chain of triggered abilities that trigger each other
13:12:41 <ais523> with no player interaction involved, no choices either
13:13:01 <ais523> I even made sure to require that if two abilities triggered simultaneously, it was from different players
13:13:34 <b_jonas> ais523: can it be set up with only two players?
13:13:49 <ais523> also made sure of that
13:14:35 <ais523> unfortunately it requires setting up a few hundred creature and enchantment tokens and using various cards to rewrite their rules texts
13:18:34 <b_jonas> what's the time limit for an entire mtgo game?
13:18:36 <ais523> which might be hard to do within the mtgo time limit, even though the cards are probably not too hard to get hold of
13:18:39 <ais523> like 50 minutes per player
13:18:40 <b_jonas> is it about a week? or much less?
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13:19:13 <b_jonas> 50 minutes per player? hmm
13:19:35 <b_jonas> is there a way to get more time than that somehow?
13:19:42 <ais523> I don't know, I don't play mtgo
13:28:36 <int-e> "magic the gathering online exchange"
13:29:24 <ais523> apparently it was never actually used for mtg, though
13:34:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Crewjony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41606&oldid=41597 * Crewjony * (+36)
13:36:41 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow#Syntax - special keywords followed by a colon, and then entry lines starting with an asterisk? that's not markdown, that's emacs-info based.
13:38:09 <b_jonas> well, not quite, because the emacs-info format also needs an asterisk heading for the special keyword commands.
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14:09:32 <J_Arcane> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat
14:17:44 <ais523> just that URL is mindblowing
14:17:47 <ais523> I haven't dared to actually click it
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14:26:15 <FireFly> I enjoyed https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript more
14:30:01 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
14:30:05 <ais523> is that what you were looking for?
14:30:33 <Taneb> ais523, I was looking for the list that fungot ignores (is there such a list?)
14:30:34 <fungot> Taneb: at installs it automagically on any box. so far i've not found that with the usual colors.
14:30:58 <ais523> Taneb: you'd have to ask fizzie about that
14:35:26 <b_jonas> are there huffman-based compressed formats where the bits that you have to be conditional on for decoding because they determine the lengths are in separate streams from the bits that you don't have to be conditional on?
14:36:44 <b_jonas> I wonder if perhaps such a format could be faster to decode than a traditional huffman-based format like deflate/zip/png or jpeg
14:37:52 <mroman> pt sucks for font sizes
14:39:13 <b_jonas> something like this might already exist of course
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15:21:08 <mroman> although vh sucks for huge monitors
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15:28:09 <mroman> is there no relative to 1% of the viewport IN CENTIMETERS
15:28:44 <ais523> mroman: does calc() do what you want?
15:28:58 <ais523> I was considering writing a generator to work out the perfect series of nested divs to do that sort of calculation
15:29:05 <ais523> then the browser manufacturers added it to CSS isntead
15:32:00 <mroman> ais523: I'm trying to figure out a way to calculate the font-size I need to make it readable on small screens (smartphones) as well as screens such as 24" TFTs
15:32:20 <ais523> I'm not sure there's an easy way to do that
15:32:27 <mroman> you can do stuff like 2vw
15:32:32 <mroman> which is 2% of the viewport width
15:32:41 <mroman> which is still too small on smartphones
15:32:53 <mroman> but a little bit too big for 24" TFTs with HD resolution
15:33:05 <b_jonas> mroman: just set it to the default font size?
15:34:10 <mroman> the default font-size on android is apparentely ridiciously small
15:34:10 <b_jonas> oh! they added "rem", font size of the root element
15:34:26 <b_jonas> I wnated that, but all css used to have was the font size of the parent element
15:34:54 <mroman> there's <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1">
15:35:26 <ais523> note that most weird-screen-sized browsers are good at zooming
15:35:48 <mroman> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1"> works like a charm.
15:37:16 <b_jonas> they have a calc(...) value which lets you put an expression using add, subtract, multiply, division, but no min or max operators? that's crazy
15:39:00 <FireFly> there's separate min-width and max-width properties I think
15:40:13 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure, but calc is for more complicated expressions
15:40:29 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#calc-notation
15:40:37 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/new/page.html
15:40:55 <mroman> now it looks decent in my 24" TFT and on my smartphone
15:41:41 <mroman> and yes, I'm a fan of simple designs with not too much stuff around
15:42:51 <Solace|skool> Is it supposed to have a green shading behind it
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15:48:28 <mroman> Solace|skool: with background-color?
15:53:59 <mroman> Alright. I'm quite happy with that now.
15:54:09 <mroman> Now I have the design. Now I need some ideas for content.
15:54:33 <mroman> (It may be supposed to replace http://mroman.ch/)
15:56:50 <mroman> I've got my own homepage at it even says "Hi".
15:57:01 <mroman> I've got my own homepage and it even says "Hi".
16:00:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tadeboro * New user account
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16:19:27 <HackEgo> [U+25AF WHITE VERTICAL RECTANGLE]
16:21:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41607&oldid=35375 * Tadeboro * (+79) Change implementation section: add first implementation.
16:22:39 <Jafet> U+25AF TOWER OF IMPERIALISM
16:26:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Eodermdrome]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41608&oldid=41607 * Ais523 * (+6) fix cats; copyedit
16:28:16 <nortti> because it is now implemented?
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16:40:36 <Jafet> That guy must have a really slow computer, as my brute force interpreter does hundreds of substitutions per second
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16:51:25 <Jafet> ais523: also, 2 out of 2 extant interpreters don't implement the punctuated-whitespace syntax hth
16:51:48 <ais523> oh no, is the language going to get Underloaded again?
16:53:11 <Jafet> What is Underloading
16:55:34 <ais523> where a language has some minor syntactical restriction that interpreter after interpreter forgets to implement
16:55:46 <ais523> until eventually it gets removed from the definition of the language due to weight of interpreter opinion
16:57:26 <Jafet> I'm pretty sure that's older than underload
16:58:43 <ais523> underload may be the most prominent case though?
17:00:31 <Jafet> C++ template export......
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17:04:18 <ais523> C++ isn't an esolang :-(
17:04:31 <ais523> also, C++ has so many relevant features that saying "C++ed" would be ambiguous
17:04:56 <Jafet> That's true; most esolangs aren't
17:05:01 <Jafet> Perhaps they should be
17:05:29 <ais523> well The Project That Shall Not Be Abbreviated As ABCDEF was a miserable failure
17:06:51 <Taneb> ais523, I much prefer ABCDEF... G
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17:12:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> where a language has some minor syntactical restriction that interpreter after interpreter forgets to implement
17:12:59 <ais523> most recently, any-punctuation-cancels-whitespace in Eodermdrome
17:13:04 <ais523> previously, " in Underload
17:14:33 <Taneb> ais523, also [] in Underload?
17:15:17 <b_jonas> to get to the other side? no wait. for future use?
17:15:23 <ais523> originally, for Overload compatibility, then I realised reserved characters would make writing interps in underpowered languages easier
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17:28:43 <ais523> is 42 like a really really old version of 2014?
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17:34:04 <ais523> <www.tryfsharp.org> Welcome to Try F#! Your system does not support the execution of F# code in the browser.
17:34:11 <ais523> I tried Firefox and Chromium
17:34:42 <ais523> let me try with user agent set to IE11
17:34:46 <J_Arcane> You need the Silverlight plugin.
17:34:56 <J_Arcane> IT doesn't tell you this, for some reason.
17:35:12 <ais523> that could be very awkward, seeing as silverlight's been discontinued
17:35:13 <J_Arcane> I had a problem in Chrome and Opera both just loading the bar and then nothing happening.
17:35:31 <ais523> all I want to do is typecheck one term
17:35:43 <ais523> (a term that has previously been mentioned in #esoteric)
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17:37:35 <callforjudgement> I was busy using a search engine to determine the appropriate TLD
17:37:46 <J_Arcane> No REPL or fancy Intellisense completion, but it does in a pinch.
17:38:44 <callforjudgement> let's hope it prints the type of a term if I just enter it directly
17:39:39 <Jafet> The sure way to get its type is to make a typo
17:41:42 <callforjudgement> "error FS0002: This function takes too many arguments, or is used in a context where a function is not expected"
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17:44:04 <J_Arcane> What's frustrating me mroe is that MS apparently doesn't believe that F# should be used to actually write an application.
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17:45:29 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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17:47:59 <ais523> the trick was to add an int that was specifically typecast to int to the function
17:49:50 <J_Arcane> It's unfortunate, and hopefully something that the open source team can start expanding on. As an MS project, F# is basically expected to be a library language for writing algorithms. Their answer to the state problem is 'fuck it, write that part in C#' mostly.
17:50:27 <J_Arcane> Which is a bummer, and also useless, because the whole reason I wanted to learn F# was to be able to make Windows apps in a functional language.
17:54:14 <ais523> ugh, adding newlines to this actually changes the meaning of the code
17:54:46 <ais523> is there a "continue onto next line" operator?
17:55:00 * ais523 tries backslash-newline
17:55:08 <J_Arcane> let in particular is whitespace sensitive: let = on single line is an assignment, let = followed by newline and indent is a function.
17:56:08 <ais523> (fun m -> fun n -> (fun f -> f(m)(f(n)(fun z -> z)))(fun x -> (fun y -> y))) + (4:int)
17:56:38 <ais523> this is intended for my PhD thesis as an illustration that most practical type algorithms don't do rank-2 type inference
17:57:01 <shachaf> whoa, is your PhD thesis about rank-2 type inference?
17:57:01 <ais523> and so I want to try it on a range of practical type inference algorithms to demonstrate that they give it the "wrong" type
17:57:17 <ais523> it's about contraction
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17:57:27 <ais523> i.e. "the act of using the same lambda binding more than once"
17:57:28 <shachaf> People say that rank-2 types are inferrable but I'm not really sure what they mean.
17:58:13 <ais523> they mean that an algorithm exists which, given a program, will work out whether it is possible to place rank-2 type annotations at appropriate points in the program so that that program types correctly
17:58:23 <ais523> (and also tell you where to put them)
17:58:34 <shachaf> There's no "most general type", though, right?
17:58:49 <shachaf> It's the same issue as inferring existentials, I guess (or a very similar one).
17:58:57 <ais523> inferring existentials also comes up :-)
17:59:02 <shachaf> You can give (\x -> x x) a rank-2 type but I don't know that you want to.
17:59:19 <J_Arcane> ais523: http://pastebin.com/X21YdG0q
17:59:22 <ais523> but yes, there isn't a requirement for the type inference algo to be compositional
17:59:41 <ais523> J_Arcane: that's exactly what I get from ideone
17:59:45 <ais523> my current issue is more mundane
17:59:58 <ais523> the function, as written, is sufficiently long that at the font size I'm forced to use
18:00:01 <ais523> it doesn't fit on the page
18:00:12 <shachaf> "you can make it type-check with *some* type" doesn't seem all that useful.
18:00:39 <shachaf> Maybe I'll read your thesis when it comes out.
18:00:56 <ais523> shachaf: it's useful in that you can just write your whole program
18:01:04 <ais523> and the types will sort themselves out for you
18:01:15 <ais523> actually I'm not sure if rank-2 inference is actually enough in this case, it's an open problem
18:01:55 <ais523> rank-2 inference is sufficient to make the premises of my existing proof that something is badly broken not hold
18:02:06 <ais523> mostly I've been getting around the problem with intersection typing though
18:02:31 <shachaf> It seems that for the types to sort themselves out for you, you need to infer the right rank-2 types. But maybe I'm not thinking that through.
18:02:46 <ais523> shachaf: that only happens if you run inference on a bit of the program at the time
18:02:56 <ais523> as in, it infers the right type for your program, but it needs information on what the program is to do that
18:03:16 <ais523> (this is the general definition of a non-compositional algorithm, incidentally)
18:03:22 <ais523> at least, I think it's non-compositional
18:03:39 <shachaf> It seems to me that the whole point of types is to be compositional.
18:03:55 <ais523> well, the way I think about it, is there's two layers
18:03:57 <shachaf> But maybe they have other points too.
18:04:01 <J_Arcane> ais523: It seems you can safely newline after the -> if you follow that with a tab (4 spaces).
18:04:13 <J_Arcane> At least it doesn't complain in VS2013.
18:04:28 <ais523> your actual syntax is compositional, the process of working out what to put in the syntax doesn't have to be
18:05:27 <J_Arcane> error FS0030: Value restriction. The value 'it' has been inferred to have generic type
18:05:30 <J_Arcane> Either make the arguments to 'it' explicit or, if you do not intend for it to be generic, add a type annotation.
18:05:43 <shachaf> ais523: Are existentials also inferrable in the same context?
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18:06:07 <shachaf> I vaguely remember talking with dolio or someone about this but I don't remember the details of the conversation.
18:06:18 <ais523> shachaf: in my special context, yes, but it's a very unusual situation
18:06:46 <ais523> actually what I did was to put enough restrictions on the language that existentials and universals were equivalent, in the one special case where I needed existentials
18:06:54 <ais523> which clearly doesn't work in general
18:09:18 <shachaf> Is there anything that does whole-program inference?
18:11:03 <ais523> it seems like a reasonable thing to do when compositional inference doesn't work
18:11:12 <ais523> my research compiler does whole-program inference of SCC
18:11:27 <ais523> I don't know of a compositional algo for that, there might be one though
18:11:32 <shachaf> Right, but is there anything you know that does it?
18:12:26 <shachaf> Strongly connected components?
18:16:14 <ais523> syntactic control of concurrency
18:16:31 <ais523> hmm, trying to get clojure to give me a useful type error is harder, so far I haven't figured out whether it's statically or dynamically typed
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18:18:40 <ais523> so it doesn't even do type inference
18:20:12 <Gregor> Statically typed Lisp would be an anomaly.
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18:20:31 <ais523> Gregor: well I tried to work out statically typed Underload once
18:20:43 <ais523> I think it needs at least rank 2 types to work, though, probably more
18:20:47 <Gregor> I said an anomaly, not an impossibility.
18:21:17 <Gregor> Also, all languages are statically typed if you define "type" to be a sufficiently-useless concept :)
18:21:51 <Gregor> There is one type. That type is called 'thing'. All values are of type 'thing'. This is statically guaranteed.
18:22:29 <ais523> Gregor: I actually define untyped lambda calculus like that in my thesis (only I called the type 'func')
18:23:30 <ais523> oh, and apparently Scala doesn't do type inference
18:23:42 <ais523> if you want a function, you have to write the types on manually
18:24:31 <ais523> hmm, based on my research so far, it seems like Haskell and OCaml really are the only really viable languages for highly functional programming atm
18:25:09 <shachaf> ais523: That's pretty standard, isn't it?
18:25:09 <coppro> Scala is considered viable by many
18:25:12 <ais523> coppro: I actually have a requirement that the language isn't dependently-typed
18:25:23 <coppro> depends what you mean by "highly functional" though
18:25:29 <ais523> coppro: not doing type inference at all is something of a dealbreaker for me
18:25:31 <shachaf> The whole T ~ T -> T CCC thing
18:25:44 <Taneb> What was that joke CS journal? It had SHA jokes in it among other more interesting things
18:26:24 <coppro> ais523: and you're requiring statically typed as well?
18:26:39 <ais523> here. have a term I have actualy used for a serious purpose: λ q.(λ g.g(λ x.g(qx)))(λ b.(λ k.((k(λ u.u))(λ l.((kb)(λ m.(l(m( skip ))))))))(λ v.λ w.wv))
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18:26:40 <coppro> because I don't agree that you can't do "highly functional" code in a dynamically-typed language
18:27:18 <ais523> coppro: well the very general field of my research is "get a compiler's to catch «error» at compiletime"
18:27:27 <ais523> dynamically-typed languages are very bad at that
18:28:25 <ais523> the error in question for my thesis is "write a program that potentially requires infinite amounts of memory to execute"
18:28:26 <coppro> Who picked \lvert and \rvert as macro names in tech
18:28:32 <coppro> writing absolute values is tedious
18:28:55 <ais523> i.e. I'm trying to statically enforce that programs use only finite amounts of memory
18:29:17 <ais523> (which in turn means that they can be statically compared, for reasons #esoteric should be well aware of)
18:30:07 <coppro> it feels like it's related in some way to corecursion. is it? or am I just imagining things?
18:30:08 <ais523> and the motivating reason for /that/ is so that they can be compiled to hardware in a way that uses static memory allocation
18:30:17 <ais523> bringing the memory to the program, rather than the other way round
18:30:22 <ais523> I'm not sure what corecursion is
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18:31:35 <ais523> J_Arcane: oh, I should probably cite you for help with the syntax
18:31:44 <ais523> do you have a name you can be cited under?
18:33:15 <coppro> ais523: recursion works by breaking down to base cases, corecursion works by building up from them
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18:33:36 <ais523> coppro: ah right, sort-of like forward chaining in Prolog
18:35:21 <ais523> #esoteric now has two citations in my thesis :-)
18:36:54 <J_Arcane> http://atreus.technomancy.us/firmware
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19:01:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iexp]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41609 * GermanyBoy * (+4519) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Iexp |paradigms=[[:Category:Declarative paradigm|declarative]] |author=[[User:GermanyBoy]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |dimensions=one-dimensional |..."
19:02:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41610&oldid=40362 * GermanyBoy * (+68) iexp
19:02:55 <myname> wait, it's fine to cite irc channes?
19:03:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iexp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41611&oldid=41609 * GermanyBoy * (+24) output only
19:03:43 <zzo38> This IRC is logged, so it should help.
19:05:17 <myname> i have to do that, to!
19:06:23 <ais523> myname: was citing individual people within it
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19:18:04 <b_jonas> ais523: J_Arcane has mentioned ideone, but http://rextester.com/runcode also has F#. rextester generally seems to have a better interface, but here you might care more about what compiler or libraries it uses to compile rather than its web interface.
19:18:17 <ais523> I just used the first one that worked
19:19:03 <b_jonas> "are Microsoft's error messages really that bad?" -- yes, they are terrible, at least in their C++ compiler
19:22:17 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: I got so quickly used to F# errors being unintelligible that on one account while writing resume.fsx I actually completely missed a missing function argument because I was so used to that error being wrong that the idea it was actually telling me the problem never occured to me.
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19:28:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: I ais523 about M:tG and he figured quickly that even in vanilla you can get a state where there's a non-creature aura without an "enchant" ability
19:28:31 <b_jonas> (for long enough to matter)
19:29:37 <b_jonas> the easiest way is to manifest an aura, then cast Turn on it, then cast Break Open on it.
19:29:50 <b_jonas> there's also a way to do it with older sets only, but it's more complicated.
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19:31:26 <J_Arcane> -hmm. Pondering slumming it in some Javascript for a bit, and it strikes me there's an interesting philosophical dilemma in targeting JS for a port of my resume generator.
19:33:13 <J_Arcane> MY 'resume' is a simple script that generates itself from some text data files.
19:33:48 <J_Arcane> The current versions so far do so by outputting to Markdown, but that seems like a needless intermediary step with .js.
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20:23:10 <J_Arcane> Wheee. http://rextester.com/CLX22519
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20:30:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: What is the way with older cards?
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20:44:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: we found only a very complicated way, there's probably a simpler one. let me check the backscroll.
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20:45:36 <b_jonas> Animate a Mizzium Transreqliquat, activate its ability to copy an artifact aura, and as a reaction, cast Turn to the Transreliquat.
20:46:10 <b_jonas> That's really inefficient, it needs like ten different cards to pull it off.
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20:48:14 <b_jonas> You need a card to make an artifact aura, such as Mycosynth Lattice or Liquimetal Coating
20:48:44 <b_jonas> hmm, that's not _that_ bad, only like five cards besides basic lands
20:49:33 <scarf> b_jonas: that still uses Turn, which is quite recent (it went out last rotation)
20:50:37 <b_jonas> you have to Shatter the Animate Artifact before the Transreliquat's ability resolves
20:50:57 <b_jonas> scarf: oh... yeah, that makes sense, it's a fuse card
20:51:05 <b_jonas> is there a way to do it without Turn?
20:52:09 <b_jonas> you could use a Humble with Teferi, Mage of Z
20:52:55 <b_jonas> ok, so Turn doesn't even really help
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21:03:23 <b_jonas> that means the newest card in this is Mizzium Transreliquat, from Guildpact
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21:23:41 <zzo38> I asked in other IRC and got conflicting answers about what exactly is "the point the creature is declared as an attacker"; declaring an attacker doesn't seem to be a single point though.
21:23:50 <zzo38> For example: If I have Blood Pet, War Tax, Sightless Brawler, and Guardians of Akrasa, and then I activate War Tax, declare an attack with Blood Pet and Sightless Brawler, and pay for the cost imposed by War Tax by sacrificing Blood Pet, what happens?
21:24:49 <zzo38> Do *you* know??? Is this a mistake made by whoever wrote the rules?
21:25:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: uh, I'm not up for that now, sorry. scarf?
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21:25:56 <ais523> zzo38: it's the start of the declare attackers phase
21:27:24 <zzo38> Ah, OK, so as soon as 508 begins.
21:27:35 <zzo38> How do you learn these things?
21:28:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: ais reads way more rules and judge material than I'd ever done
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21:32:16 <shachaf> zzo38: It seems to me from the rules that you declare attackers in 508.1a, and then check all the conditions at once in 508.1c.
21:33:13 <shachaf> So you've declared two creatures as attacking, and then sacrificed one to pay a cost.
21:34:35 <zzo38> But 508.1c is for restrictions, not triggers. There are then requirements at 508.1d, and costs at 508.1g. It looks to me like you are in the process of declaring.
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21:36:04 <shachaf> Oh, 508.1g isn't part of 508.1c.
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22:10:25 <zzo38> Whether or not it is doesn't seem relevant to answer my question.
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22:48:09 <zzo38> From my variant planeswalkers rules it suggest to me a new kind of keyword ability called "planestrample", which actually can sometimes be used even if there are no planeswalker cards.
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23:04:26 <HackEgo> the_astrologer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:05:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: what would that ability do? trample extra combat damage over a planeswalker to its controller player?
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23:10:57 <AndoDaan> fungot, what is the most boring number?
23:10:57 <fungot> AndoDaan: why a waste?
23:11:38 <myname> AndoDaan: isn't being the most boring number kinda interesting?
23:12:14 <AndoDaan> heh. I think that's the proof that no number can be boring. Read somewhere.
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23:14:19 <zzo38> Although if a "planeswalkers are players" variant then it means: If this would deal damage (even if it isn't combat damage) to a player that would exceed his life total, the remaining damage is redirected to that player's controller. (Usually a player controls himself, so there is no effect.)
23:17:35 <zzo38> (The variant planeswalkers rule does what you said with combat damage, but also works if a player is being controlled due to Mindslaver or whatever.)
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23:24:31 <AndoDaan> And you're all back. That was exciting.
23:24:47 <oerjan> i think one is missing?
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23:26:32 <oerjan> AndoDaan: irssi tells me how many left (although it left out 3 names) and how many rejoined
23:26:37 <Taneb> oerjan, maybe nortii quit just after the netsplit
23:26:53 <oerjan> (although the latter got split up over 6 lines)
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23:33:54 <oerjan> <Taneb> ais523, I was looking for the list that fungot ignores (is there such a list?) <-- iirc the command is ^ignore but it only responds to fizzie, even when just querying the list
23:33:54 <oerjan> he did consider allowing the latter but that would obviously require rewriting fungot code...
23:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: then d has matured since i last used arj. with lynx that is:
23:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: so the hash function can, for instance, when the whim ( anger?) explodes, that has the confirmed rules of competition...
23:33:56 <oerjan> hm fizzie's server isn't responding to /whois
23:34:28 <oerjan> oh there, someone is lagged
23:35:05 <oerjan> probably fizzie and fungot then
23:35:05 <fungot> oerjan: are you respecting the ctl-v ctl-x ctl-c tradition? this is the
23:35:40 <oerjan> fungot: i use ctrl-c and ctrl-v, but rarely ctrl-x
23:35:40 <fungot> oerjan: non-recursive let has always seemed a little fnord up, ashanks!!
23:36:08 <Taneb> fungot, how will my exam tomorrow go?
23:36:08 <fungot> Taneb: http://tools.ietf.org/ rfc/ fnord and the heap is about to use scanf in c++ code, not the cd :p.
23:37:05 <oerjan> fungot: iirc Taneb is studying math so that seems somewhat irrelevant
23:37:15 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm doing maths and computer science
23:37:23 <Taneb> Tomorrow's exam is for vision and graphics, though
23:39:05 <Taneb> Heh, someone caused a botloop in another channel by having a webpage whose title made one bot evaluate a brainfuck program which printed the url of page, which another bot
23:39:09 <Taneb> printed the title of
23:40:04 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:40:14 <Taneb> He spent all day working on it
23:41:36 <oerjan> hm didn't there use to be a url title bot here
23:42:11 <oerjan> or maybe it was in #haskell way back when i was there
23:42:33 <Taneb> I think there is one in #haskell
23:44:05 <Taneb> I think tomorrow's exam is an exercise in making sure you actually go to the goddamn lectures in future
23:46:18 <oerjan> <ais523> note that most weird-screen-sized browsers are good at zooming <-- i have seen blogs which manage to make the width of the main text area _smaller_ when i zoom :(
23:47:00 <oerjan> (on my laptop with IE)
23:47:26 <myname> i wonder why the fuck some mobile sites actually forbid me to zoom
23:49:10 <Taneb> Oooh, space carving looks interesting
23:49:38 <FireFly> seam carving*? (or something unrelated?)
23:49:41 <Taneb> You know, if I could have been bothered with this module, I'd have really enjoyed it
23:49:58 <Taneb> FireFly, it's a way to construct a 3D model from some images
23:50:05 <FireFly> Oh, something unrelated then
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23:50:32 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm really annoyed at myself for not going to these lectures :(
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23:51:31 <oerjan> do any browsers have some concept of "this site is broken; allow me to overrule specific broken features of it?"
23:52:01 <Taneb> iirc Opera did? It's been a while since I've used it, though
23:56:47 <Taneb> (I remember for a time a few years ago- when I still used Windows- I decided that of course the best thing to do was to have ALL THE BROWSERS installed)
23:56:55 <Taneb> (I think I had Netscape on there)
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