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00:59:23 <zzo38> If a card with Storm targets spells, can it target the spell it is a copy of?
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01:02:02 <zzo38> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382942 does not say.
01:02:27 <boily> I suppose so. 702.39a says that new target can be chosen, and that copies are on the stack.
01:06:40 <Solace> Oh you guys and your games
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01:09:08 <boily> Solace: it's not a game.
01:11:46 <Solace> oh you guys and your things
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01:13:58 <boily> Solace: we're not guys. we're Canadians!
01:15:56 <boily> it's not god, it's fungot!
01:15:56 <fungot> boily: i think c's syntax is closer to being 80 times slower. ( both sarahbot and fsbot have this problem; it always bugs me when sarahbot initiates the ai when she should be saying ' i need to
01:16:24 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient.
01:16:30 <int-e> Waiting for Fungot?
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01:17:46 <int-e> Not I want to see sarahbot and fsbot.
01:20:18 <int-e> myname: btw I believe "Smiley's triangle" is a problem where the Haskell records are out of reach (55 is possible; as far as I can see, 52 requires n+k-patterns which were removed in Haskell2010)
01:20:35 * int-e swats himself for that apostrophe.
01:21:12 <myname> what are n+k-patterns?
01:21:23 <int-e> > let f (n+1) = n in (f 1, f 0)
01:21:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: n + 1
01:21:29 <myname> i am not sure if i could shorten my solution much more
01:21:46 <myname> why were they removed?
01:21:52 <int-e> with NPlusKPatterns: (0,*** Exception: <interactive>:3:5-15: Non-exhaustive patterns in function f
01:23:52 <myname> while we are at it, are there good ways to not use unlines?
01:23:58 <myname> it takes quite the space
01:25:32 <int-e> myname: There is no hard reason, just a general dislike for their semantics (they only match if n>=0) and lack of use. There is a compiler writer argument (they translate to a pattern that's a variable, followed by another assignment to a fesh variable and a comparison)... but by the same argument the plain N-patterns (0, 1, 2,..., -1,...) would also have to go, and those were kept because they're...
01:25:39 <int-e> ...just too useful.
01:26:01 <int-e> myname: it's not always possible, but sometimes do notation and ++"\n" are shorter.
01:26:15 <lambdabot> CYRQ 050120Z AUTO 22014KT 3SM BR OVC003 M01/M01 A2941 RMK ICG PAST HR SLP962
01:26:33 <myname> how picky is the site about trailing newlines?
01:26:41 <int-e> myname: for output, mapM putStrLn is shorter than putStr.unlines
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01:28:59 <int-e> myname: it only removes trailing whitespace at the end of output; all other whitespace is critical.
01:29:23 <int-e> so "a\nb" is the same as "a\nb \n\t " but not the same as "a \nb"
01:30:23 <int-e> (Hmm, I'm guessing about the \t here.)
01:32:17 <myname> also: how the hell are the languages sorted?
01:32:48 <int-e> possibly chronologically by time of being added?
01:33:47 <int-e> I mean I don't know, but that would explain why Ruby comes first (the site is written in ruby after all)
01:34:47 <myname> i am a bit confused sometimes
01:35:00 <myname> what the hell is f"oo" for haskell?
01:36:04 <myname> ah, i forgot that ++ binds weaker
01:37:27 <Solace> replacer bot in here s/this/replace
01:37:30 <int-e> So it's not the order of addition. "jq" was added very recently and comes somewhere in the middle. So I don't know.
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01:39:40 <myname> also i am very confused by these mid-sized solutions
01:39:52 <myname> (not to talk about these 1157 php ones)
01:40:20 <myname> i mean, 492 characters in scheme
01:40:41 <int-e> it's shorter than the total output ;-)
01:41:19 <myname> but to be 9 times as large as the shortest given solution is poor
01:41:26 <int-e> the php one is probably a single print statement?
01:41:29 <boily> exploring the limits of Kolmogorov complexity, one atrocious program at a time.
01:41:44 <myname> i don't know how it handles php
01:41:58 <myname> if you need tags, you could just copy&paste the output and be shorter
01:43:08 <myname> this second line really gets me
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01:44:55 <myname> maybe i should start learning that do syntax
01:45:09 <myname> is it shorter than list comprehension?
01:45:51 <int-e> the point is that do x <- foo; bar x is the concatenation of [bar x | x <- foo]
01:46:28 <myname> but this is still equally long
01:47:10 <int-e> the list comprehension is one character shorter, but you get the concatenation almost for free.
01:47:38 <int-e> (foo>>=bar is even shorter, of course.)
01:47:57 <myname> given i don't need the parameter named
01:48:47 <myname> okay, i have problems with that do
01:49:39 <myname> do x<-[1..];putStrLn$take x "foo" gives me a type mismatch
01:49:49 <int-e> another use of do notation is m@main=do n<-readLn;<something>;m
01:50:21 <myname> not sure if it's actually shorter than interact
01:50:29 <int-e> myname: well, it'd have to be mapM putStrLn$do x<-[1..];..., and suddenly the do is not worth it anymore.
01:50:52 <myname> i thought i could replace the mapM using do
01:51:04 <int-e> or rather... putStr$do x<-[1..];take x"foo"++"\n" still not worth it.
01:51:12 <int-e> myname: only in the list monad
01:51:22 <int-e> actually, scratch that.
01:51:35 <int-e> you cannot do mapM in do notation.
01:52:42 <int-e> But one can switch between mapM putStrLn and putStr.unlines, and the unlines is basically concatenation, which you can get "almost for free" in do notation
01:52:50 <int-e> impossible to predict.
01:53:37 <myname> i am not sure if i can follow you there
01:55:12 <int-e> I can show you a 55 character solution that should be very close to what you currently have, if you like
01:55:31 <int-e> (not using do notation; I don't think it helps for this problem)
01:55:42 <myname> i can get to 57 but now missing newlines
01:55:56 <myname> i cannot get putStrLn into a do block, can i?
01:56:13 <int-e> not in any useful way, for this problem
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01:56:38 <myname> but i get what you mean with the concatenation thing
01:56:42 <int-e> (as far as I can see.)
01:57:34 <myname> i could show you what i have, that may be more fair
01:58:18 <int-e> sure. message me if you like (oerjan hates spoilers)
01:58:43 <boily> is oerjan stalking us now?
01:59:52 <myname> isn't he the one who basically reads all the log files?
02:00:17 <int-e> boily: oerjan is almost always reading the logs
02:00:37 <myname> that's how the bots learnt about my twin
02:00:55 * boily chants a few OKAYs towards the Spirit of Oerjan
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02:15:00 * pikhq wonders if ais523 is currently at AGDQ 2015 or not
02:15:23 <pikhq> Allegedly he is involved in some way with the TASbot bit.
02:15:23 <coppro> what happened to pokemon red?
02:15:32 <pikhq> It got pushed around it looks like.
02:15:40 <pikhq> Going after the mystery game rather than before.
02:16:23 <elliott> pikhq: "no, but he's at AGDQ 2016"
02:17:04 <pikhq> Been fun finally watching that thing live.
02:18:08 <zzo38> I can see a copy of a stormed spell can copy the original, but for example could the first copy of a Flusterstorm spell target the original, the second copy target the first copy, the third copy targets the second copy, etc?
02:20:06 <pikhq> No, just watching on my TV.
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02:26:50 <elliott> okay it's in nowhere, virginia
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02:36:26 <pikhq> Okay, the Pokemon Red TASbot demo was beautiful.
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02:42:48 <pikhq> ais523: Pray tell, what was your involvement in this delight?
02:43:11 <coppro> pikhq: ais523 came up with the triple takeover idea
02:43:13 <ais523> pikhq: the idea of breaking into an SGB
02:43:22 <ais523> when people were thinking of the game inside as the "game"
02:43:44 <pikhq> So, the concept that made it delightful, but not really the implementation.
02:43:55 <ais523> I wasn't that much involved in the implementation
02:43:58 <ais523> we had much more planned than that
02:44:10 <ais523> some of my other parts didn't make it in, either due to technical issues or because it was shortened for time
02:44:12 <ais523> but I'm fine with that
02:44:15 <ais523> it had the desired effect
02:44:51 <ais523> not sure how much I should reveal because they may be planning to do the whole thing later
02:44:51 <pikhq> Presumably that'll be in the bonus stream if possible.
02:45:04 <ais523> and I don't want to steal anyone else's thunder
02:45:09 <ais523> if it was just me I'd tell you everything
02:45:26 <pikhq> Pokemon Red was definitely a good choice though.
02:45:42 <pikhq> I'll probably pester you for details after the marathon. :)
02:45:50 <ais523> one thing that was mentioned: I worked on some of the lines TASbot sent to Twitch chat, but it was so spammy nobody could actually see them
02:46:30 <elliott> wait it actually sent messages back the other way?
02:46:36 <elliott> like how did it communicate them from the NES
02:46:40 <pikhq> Wait, was TASbot running the IRC connection, or was the SNES?
02:46:50 <ais523> not the SNES itself, we were going to until we realised that was silly
02:47:09 <pikhq> It's possible but probably *pretty tricky* to do from an SNES.
02:47:24 <coppro> Pokemon Red is poetic, because it flipped TPP around
02:47:32 <pikhq> Actually, I think it'd be much easier on an NES.
02:47:33 <coppro> (and I saw a could of start9s in the chat too)
02:49:07 <FireFly> I really liked both the SMW and Red TASes
02:49:24 <pikhq> Pity that ended up being slightly buggy.
02:50:06 <pikhq> (I presume a very *miniscule* missync that only showed up when the SNES controller port was being used as a mildly high-speed interface?)
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02:53:14 <ais523> pikhq: I'm not 100% sure what happened, and it lasted longer than I expected
02:53:30 <ais523> I /think/ it was a bug that they figured out a workaround but not a fix for, but I'm not clear on it
02:53:32 <int-e> zzo38: "When you play this spell, put a copy of it onto the stack for each other spell that was cast before it this turn. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies." is poorly phrased; it leaves unclear when exactly the new targets are chosen. I /suppose/ you do that as part of putting the copy on the stack.
02:53:51 <ais523> int-e: it all happens at once; also, Storm is a pre-existing ability, and that's reminder text
02:54:01 <ais523> there's a section in the rules for it specifically
02:54:32 <int-e> ais523: that is the rules text.
02:54:53 <int-e> (if I can believe the mtgsalvation wiki)
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02:55:56 <int-e> ais523: the most extreme reading is that everything is put on the stack, and then you choose targets on the stack, so a spell could target a spell higher up on the stack. (but not itself...)
02:59:26 <zzo38> I am confused about such thing too
03:07:33 <FireFly> Apparently the PPT part will be re-shown in full later in the week
03:08:25 <int-e> . o O ( Card: Stack Overflow. Type: Instant. Cost: 0. Text: You win the game. You may only cast this spell if there are at least 20 items (spells or abilities) on the stack. )
03:09:29 <zzo38> Maybe it should cost more than zero though.
03:10:41 <int-e> perhaps s/Stack Overflow/Combo Breaker/
03:10:47 <coppro> pikhq: from the sounds of what they were saying, the cables are sufficiently bad and what they are doing is sufficiently precise that crossing cables over one another can induce electromagnetic interference enough to mess things up. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was something that broke it slightly
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03:11:04 <pikhq> Oh right, that did happen last year too.
03:11:09 <int-e> Also I suspect there are ways of getting a spell on the stack without casting it.
03:11:25 * pikhq sighs a bit though
03:11:45 <pikhq> Had a root canal on Tuesday, and the really sharp toothache is back in the same tooth.
03:12:17 * Sgeo wonders what pikhq thinks of Prismata
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04:47:34 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/ob4RHT7.png
04:48:16 <Sgeo> So, is it a bad idea for me to just aggregate copyrights+warnings? Maybe each route's warniings should be listed with each destination, rather than all at the top
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04:58:09 <Sgeo> I do want to display per-route information anyway
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05:16:09 <coppro> whatever font chrome uses for Wikipedia renders 👻 as a pac-man ghost
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05:16:21 <HackEgo> U+1F47B GHOST \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 bb UTF-16BE: d83ddc7b Decimal: 👻 \ 👻 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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05:18:49 <Solace> Sometimes people input special symbals they make tbh on wikipedia
05:19:03 <Solace> so other computers can't really render them.correctly
05:20:14 <coppro> no, this is using native font rendering
05:21:04 <Solace> I cannot believe a swastika is a symbol that you can make with alt symbols
05:21:54 <HackEgo> [U+5350 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5350] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+534D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-534D]
05:22:44 <Solace> Well I didn't know that
05:23:04 <copumpkin> both of them are pronounced wàn in mandarin, apparently
05:23:43 <Solace> off hand they should crook one of the branches
05:23:51 <Solace> so it doesn't look like the broken cross
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05:26:03 <lifthrasiir> Solace, copumpkin: they are common buddhism signs.
05:26:27 <copumpkin> that doesn't necessarily justify their inclusion in unicode though
05:26:46 <Solace> Well if Hitler hadn't changed the German sign for peace
05:26:50 <copumpkin> but the fact that they're also considered chinese characters (obviously for the reasons you mentioned) does
05:26:57 <Solace> We wouldn't be having this discussion
05:27:24 <lifthrasiir> of course, it is not intended for Swatchka (is this spelling right?)
05:28:31 <Solace> https://i.imgur.com/zx8qFta.jpg
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05:32:05 <Solace> I wish I could contribute to the wiki but it seems all of my 'original' ideas have already been thought of
05:35:20 <Solace> Also the having a bot on a different name thing is annoying so ill just keep it on my accounts
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05:45:54 <Solace> or should the my be in quotations
05:46:10 <Solace> to imply they were never mine and I just had a burst of thought
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05:49:25 <Sgeo> I love forgetting that the stuff I want is in a list instead of being a single entity
05:51:07 <Solace> is it like when you have a random stack that isn't filled and you pull from another that is and put it in that but accidently put the entire stack into that one and crash everything
05:51:16 <Solace> sigh I've done that a lot lately
05:51:31 <Solace> maybe that's why the school was able to link so quickly
05:52:19 <Solace> or my vps wasn't payed for and I've forgotten again
05:54:20 <Solace> I'm just going off on a tangent and anxiety levels are through the roof
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06:09:37 <int-e> Solace: Don't kill anybody.
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06:19:05 <Sgeo> Is there a rule of UI design that says "Don't put too much text"?
06:19:07 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/MYGcHIe.png
06:19:20 <Sgeo> I'm a fast reader, but slower readers might have problems with this, especially as I add more bullet points
06:20:15 <coppro> you shoudl also be drawing attention to the more importan info
06:20:59 <Sgeo> I don't know what's most important to the user
06:21:11 <Sgeo> Time spent walking? Whether or not taxi is required? Time waiting for transfer?
06:21:15 <Sgeo> All stuff I intend to show
06:21:34 <Sgeo> (The taxi thing is already coded but I guess these routes don't suggest it)
06:24:06 <Sgeo> 'It might be misleading as-is making it look like these are all walking routes, which they're not
06:24:31 <Sgeo> The first route displayed is walk, bus, walk, bus, walk
06:24:39 <Sgeo> Which will be displayed on the right when clicked, but still
06:28:15 <Sgeo> This feels a lot like a tablet-y UI
06:29:19 <newsham> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
06:30:09 * Sgeo is addicted to overflow-y: scroll
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07:29:19 <Solace> int-e: not if I dont have to, lol
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07:38:03 <^v> newsham, <3
07:38:05 <^v> lua is at the top
07:54:03 <int-e> oh, a (say) perl -> brainfuck -> perl quine is easier to write than a brainfuck one.
07:56:44 <Solace> all these greater than and less than
07:57:20 <int-e> and that's how the whole circle can be covered by a 12k program; for most of the languages, one just needs transformations for printing fixed strings.
07:58:32 <int-e> in principle there only needs to be one exception, but with Brainfuck appearing twice, I guess there are more intermediate programs that are actually quine-like in that they duplicate some part of themselves
07:58:51 <int-e> (Ook! is also on the circle)
07:59:13 <int-e> Piet is another one where the encoding is likely to be inefficient
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10:16:53 <oerjan> <myname> isn't he the one who basically reads all the log files? <-- now that's crazy talk
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10:37:10 <mroman> @hoogle String -> ByteString
10:37:10 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Char8 pack :: String -> ByteString
10:37:10 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString.Lazy.Char8 pack :: [Char] -> ByteString
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14:16:49 <Jafet> > 244876632^3 - 214243302^3 == 236678442^3 - 203342412^3
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14:51:28 <Taneb> Does anyone know what the notation "ℂ*" means?
14:52:14 <Taneb> Complex numbers without zero?
14:52:32 <b_jonas> Taneb: maybe complex numbers closed with infinity?
14:52:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, hmm, I think complex numbers without zero makes sense
14:53:23 <Taneb> It's from a past exam question asking whether ℂ* and o form a group where z o w = izw
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15:01:39 <b_jonas> Taneb: oh, yes, in that case without zero can make sense
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16:00:57 <Taneb> What should I know for last minute group theory revision?
16:01:29 <Jafet> Don't revise group theory all by yourself!
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16:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41598&oldid=40627 * InputUsername * (-73) Updated user page
16:57:32 <myname> so, why doesn't this work: c#[]=[];c#(h:t)|c==h=t|True=h:c#t;f l=[c:r|c<-l,r<-f$c#l]
16:58:58 <Vorpal> What the hell, I can ping my phone on WLAN from my desktop but not my laptop. ssh works fine from the desktop to the phone, but not from the laptop again. They are all on the same LAN/WLAN. Oh and laptop<->desktop works fine
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17:42:43 <Vorpal> FreeFull, it doesn't matter which AP the phone or the laptop is on (there are two physical, one with both 2.4 and 5 GHz, so 3 SSIDs in total). Or even if the laptop is on ethernet
17:47:53 <zzo38> I have book of Magic: the Puzzling and I believe I have found an alternative solution to "Near Death" which does not involve playing Baki's Curse or blocking Hungry Mist, but do you know if this alternative solution is valid under Fourth Edition rules?
17:49:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41599&oldid=39093 * 73.184.106.177 * (+7) Possible intention
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19:26:14 <zzo38> For the purposes of conceding the game in Magic: the Gathering when the game would continue (such as if there are more than two players), which effects are considered atomic?
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19:58:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think none, but there are some tricky rules on what happens when an invalid action is rewound and you've conceded:
19:59:57 <b_jonas> in a multiplayer game, if an opponent tries to cast Hex, you can concede very quickly before he chooses the targets, and that can make casting Hex invalid if there aren't enough creatures remaining, so casting Hex is rewound, but you don't rejoin the game, you and your objects have left it permanently, that isn't rewound because it isn't part of trying to cast the spell.
20:00:16 <b_jonas> it's tricky, I don't quite understand it, but that's what we surmised when I asked about this Hex situation.
20:00:51 <b_jonas> (that's a situation that could very rarely plausibly come up in a multiplayer game when you're desperate)
20:02:12 <b_jonas> (mind you, you're not likely to see a game where you can actually save your teammate this way, but it's possible that you're very close to losing and don't see any other chance)
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20:27:30 <Taneb> Exam went well, except I completely forgot there was such a thing as the Fundamental Theorem of Group Homomorphisms
20:31:54 <Taneb> If I got everything that I think I got right right, that's 93%
20:32:04 <b_jonas> wait, was it a written test?
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21:02:24 <zzo38> I read of a kind of Magic: the Gathering format called Solomon Draft. It looks like I like that one.
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21:43:01 <J_Arcane> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/01/pokemon-plays-twitch-how-a-robot-got-irc-running-on-an-unmodified-snes/
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22:12:43 <oerjan> <Taneb> Does anyone know what the notation "ℂ*" means? <-- "the group of invertible elements in ℂ under multiplication *", i should think
22:13:16 <Taneb> oerjan, the context suggested it was a set rather than a group, because the question gave another operation
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22:13:24 <Taneb> And asked "is this a group?"
22:13:41 <oerjan> (pretty sure it's a group btw)
22:14:07 <oerjan> (hint: it's isomorphic to the usual multiplication)
22:14:57 <Taneb> oerjan, yeah, I worked that out
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22:23:34 <oerjan> @tell myname <myname> so, why doesn't this work: c#[]=[];c#(h:t)|c==h=t|True=h:c#t;f l=[c:r|c<-l,r<-f$c#l] <-- it's empty for the f [] base case, which causes all others to be empty as well. btw 1>0 is shorter than True.
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22:42:48 <J_Arcane> hah hah. ideone supports intercal.
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23:50:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 052300Z 26013G20KT 15SM FEW030 M17/M23 A3029 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP260
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