←2015-01-03 2015-01-04 2015-01-05→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:00:03 <elliott> nooo, fizzie should explain it
00:00:11 <fizzie> No, I should be asleep.
00:00:19 <coppro> fizzie: cht=tx tells it it's a TeX formula
00:00:35 <elliott> I love it when you come in to take the effort away from me
00:00:57 <coppro> that's deprecated though
00:01:07 <Solace> I should try to reboot somestuff
00:01:58 <fizzie> All I was going to say is that this definitely-non-GPT laptop has root=UUID=... on it.
00:02:16 <Solace> blurgh
00:02:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok, but then what's the full syntax? how do I specify the partition number on that disk, and where's good documentation here?
00:02:53 <elliott> it specifies a partition.
00:03:09 <fizzie> It's a partition-specific UUID, you can't specify a partition on it.
00:03:09 <elliott> use blkid or something to get the identifier
00:03:09 <elliott> it can print them all out for you
00:03:09 <elliott> you can use these in /etc/fstab too btw
00:03:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: is it a laptop with only one hard disk?
00:03:09 <elliott> which is good if, uh, you have no /dev, I guess?
00:03:09 <b_jonas> ok wait
00:03:09 <elliott> b_jonas: e.g. I'm pretty sure ubuntu and so on have installed with UUIDs only for years
00:03:09 <elliott> certainly it's been the recommended arch practice for everyone for a long time
00:03:09 <b_jonas> so I can use these partition-specific UUIDs, which are a filesystem feature
00:03:09 <b_jonas> I see
00:03:09 <b_jonas> that's great!
00:03:09 <elliott> so I'd be very surprised if it didn't work for you
00:03:09 <b_jonas> I might try this
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00:03:09 <fizzie> This is a Debian installation, and it configured grub with UUID=... by default.
00:03:09 <b_jonas> I sort of prefer the hard disk hardware ids, because the partition uids could get duplicated if I copy a whole filesystem bytewise, but that's a rare occasion
00:03:09 <b_jonas> but I guess I could use this filesystem id thing for boot
00:03:13 <fizzie> And yes, the format does seem filesystem-specific, because all these ext-whatevers have the GUID-style thing, while the NTFS partitions are just 16 hex digits.
00:03:15 <coppro> b_jonas: you should get in the habit of changing the UUID if you do that
00:03:20 <elliott> you maybe can do ID=... or something
00:03:21 <elliott> I dunno
00:03:34 <elliott> b_jonas: btw, that's why byte-copying GPT tables is generally considered a sin
00:03:43 <elliott> (you have to generate a new GUID if you clone a partition)
00:03:48 <elliott> well
00:03:48 <b_jonas> elliott: change them with tune2fs? could work, yes
00:03:50 <elliott> depends on what you're doing
00:03:54 <elliott> for backups it's whatever
00:03:59 <elliott> but if you intend to use both simultaneously
00:04:11 <Solace> Ok so like there's 16 million colour hex codes and I wanna list them all but idk how to do that in an.efficient and fast way
00:04:25 <b_jonas> (or reiserfstune -u depending on the fs type I guess)
00:04:30 <Solace> Or atleast almost a lot
00:04:40 <elliott> you still use reiserfs? o_o
00:05:04 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, for backup partitions that I may want to access even if my main system crashes and I want to access them with an old system that doesn't have ext4 support
00:05:16 <b_jonas> (I'm paranoid)
00:05:26 <b_jonas> I actually prefer ext4 now
00:05:37 <b_jonas> but won't recreate some existing reiserfs
00:05:51 <b_jonas> anyway, my remaining question is, where's this kernel parameter root=UUID thing documented?
00:05:59 <b_jonas> does it work even without initrd?
00:06:04 <b_jonas> because I think it's an initrd thing
00:06:06 <b_jonas> but let me check
00:06:26 <elliott> fizzie: so does this mean that if you have some random data that just happens to look like a valid somefs filesystem with a certain UUID...?
00:06:35 <elliott> like, it works by probing, not by hashing up some hardware identifiers of the partition?
00:06:56 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, I guess that's the other problem
00:07:07 <elliott> I mean, it works, it's just ugly :p
00:07:11 <elliott> I like PARTUUID better then
00:07:20 <elliott> though I just use PARTLABEL since UUIDs are a pain and I know what my partition labels are
00:07:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: By the way, "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" suggests you can perhaps use PARTUUID without GPT too, because all these partitions have PARTUUIDs of 0008fac6-01 .. 0008fac6-07 where the first digits are probably the disk ID.
00:07:27 <elliott> (you can use LABEL on non-GPT)
00:07:32 <int-e> Meh am I the only one who lost data thanks to reiserfs' attitude of keeping metadata consistent but not caring about the relation between file size and file contents?
00:07:42 <Solace> no
00:07:44 <fizzie> (Where the 01 .. 07 is the partition number.)
00:07:48 <Solace> you arenr
00:07:52 <b_jonas> elliott: some live cd systems that supposedly don't use your hard disk default to using any swap partitions they find on your hard disk as swap by default, good luck if you wanted to recover data from a failing hard disk with such a live boot system
00:07:54 <int-e> (this must have been around the year 2000, I have not used reiserfs since)
00:08:17 <fizzie> (So many redundant tools -- I picked "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" out of 'man mount'.)
00:08:18 <Solace> I've only used it recently
00:08:53 <b_jonas> sadly,
00:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: blkid is part of the same package as lsblk, I think.
00:09:00 <b_jonas> it seems root=UUID= is an initrd feature
00:09:08 <b_jonas> the kernel itself only has root=PARTUUID=
00:09:09 <Solace> How do you keep a constant file of metadata mine keeps deleting itself and I'm slowly dieing
00:09:22 <elliott> have you considered just using an initramfs :p
00:09:31 <fizzie> elliott: dpkg reports they're both in util-linux here, FWIW.
00:09:38 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, I have mentioned that among other stuff
00:09:58 <fizzie> b_jonas: So did that non-GPT PARTUUID suit your needs?
00:09:59 <b_jonas> but I just don't see why I need these sort of workarounds when linux does now my hard disk identifier anyway
00:09:59 <elliott> fizzie: right I mean, they both use libblkid or whatever
00:10:09 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, how does that work?
00:10:33 <fizzie> b_jonas: Try "lsblk -o +UUID,PARTUUID" and see if your partitions have "xxxxxxxx-NN" PARTUUID values.
00:10:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: Then try them out as root=PARTUUID=..., I guess.
00:11:03 <Solace> just Delete linux and install the original windows
00:11:04 <b_jonas> I don't have an lsblk
00:11:10 <b_jonas> do I have to install that?
00:11:12 <fizzie> Well, hmm.
00:11:14 <Solace> that's a horrid suggestion
00:11:21 <Solace> I'm sorry
00:11:38 <b_jonas> whatever I choose, I definitely won't do it right now. I'll sleep on it and thing what's the best thing to do.
00:11:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's in 'util-linux' on Debian. But I don't know anything about this.
00:12:10 <fizzie> b_jonas: At any rate, it's just a disk ID + partition number, so if you wanted something robust to repartitioning, this ain't it.
00:12:19 <b_jonas> oh, apparently it's in later versions of lsblk
00:12:23 <b_jonas> later than what I have installed
00:12:41 <b_jonas> ok, I'll try to figure that out, thanks
00:12:44 <b_jonas> it might helop
00:13:37 <fizzie> FWIW, fdisk reports "Disk identifier: 0x0008fac6" and the PARTUUIDs I get from lsblk are 0008fac6-01 and so on, so you could probably puzzle it out that way too.
00:13:47 <fizzie> Anyway, the sleep. ->
00:13:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks for the hints
00:16:28 <b_jonas> creating an efi partition table and installing grub2 might make sense, so that's an option I have to consider too
00:18:28 <quintopia> anyone know the name of the symmetry group of Life-like CAs?
00:18:34 <b_jonas> elliott: thank you
00:18:47 <elliott> no problem. that'll be $5k
00:19:39 <int-e> quintopia: dihedral group, D_4?
00:19:54 <vanila> what symmetry group?
00:19:59 <vanila> one of the wallpaper groups?
00:20:55 <oerjan> should it include translations as well?
00:23:43 <vanila> or the symmetry of the rule set?
00:23:57 <vanila> since it only depends on the number it's the full permutation group I think
00:24:24 <quintopia> aha
00:25:33 <quintopia> seems right vanila. thanks.
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00:30:35 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA!
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00:39:38 * GeekDude blows everyone in this channel up with 1 ton of c4
00:42:22 <elliott> rip
00:42:28 * GeekDude flings everyone in this channel into a black hole
00:44:37 <Solace> u wot
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00:49:22 <Solace> Are you implying GeekDude that being tossed into a black hole would kill us?
00:49:32 * GeekDude throws a baseball bat at everyone in this channel
00:49:42 <Solace> U fkn w0t
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00:50:40 * GeekDude slaps everyone in this channel with a PRIVMSG
00:51:04 <Solace> idk
00:51:10 <Solace> whats happening
00:51:14 <Solace> Is he a bot?
00:51:47 <elliott> GeekDude: pls stop
00:51:47 <Solace> keeping an entire copy of your server on 300 floppy disks
00:51:56 <GeekDude> I am not a bot
00:52:01 <GeekDude> I just like slapping people
00:52:08 <Solace> Stop :l
00:52:15 <Solace> ya dip
00:52:15 <GeekDude> Who keeps a backup on floppies?
00:52:35 <Solace> was a joke
00:52:48 <GeekDude> A very floppy joke
00:52:48 <elliott> GeekDude: it's not really appropriate so please don't
00:52:52 <Solace> Since servers nowadays would take up a lot of floppies
00:53:23 <GeekDude> I think it'd depend on whether or not you're copying the entire server, or just the relevant configuration files and web root
00:53:29 <Solace> Ok so like I'm trying to fill up a petabyte
00:53:39 <Solace> And its taking very long
00:53:50 <Solace> All of the server
00:54:01 <Solace> God dammit words
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00:56:13 <Solace> I'm having trouble with outputting spaces in haskell.
00:56:32 <Solace> itsjusthavingallthewordsconnectedlikethis
00:57:18 <elliott> uhh... can I see your code?
00:58:13 <Solace> when I get on the computer elliott
00:58:27 <Solace> I'm at my friends house atm
01:02:19 <Solace> oh.. I'm stupid I accidently deleted the zerospace file ;-; now I have to redo it
01:02:32 <Solace> Sorry for the bother. ugh I is stupid
01:08:40 <GeekDude> I have a saying
01:08:46 <GeekDude> "Everybody is stupid"
01:08:56 <GeekDude> So far it's turned out pretty correct
01:25:12 <zzo38> I tried entering a complicated regular expression into Gatherer and it would not accept it.
01:25:56 <shachaf> How complicated?
01:27:51 <zzo38> I typed m/^[^()]*(\([^()]*\))*[^()]*counters?\son[^()]*(\([^()]*\))*[^()]*$/ although maybe it contains a mistake I don't know
01:28:41 <shachaf> What are you looking for?
01:29:00 <zzo38> Cards with "counter(s) on" outside of reminder text.
01:31:08 <shachaf> Does Gatherer even search inside the reminder text?
01:32:21 <zzo38> Yes it does, and doesn't seem to have an option to omit it.
01:34:24 <shachaf> I think what people usually do for complicated queries is download the database and search it themselves.
01:34:32 <shachaf> I don't know if it's easily available for download, though.
01:36:44 <zzo38> I did also want a SQLite database of Magic: the Gathering cards in fact.
01:37:22 <zzo38> Maybe people can work together making one up.
01:38:03 <shachaf> Several people have databases, e.g. magiccards.info and the bot Datatog on EFNet.
01:40:28 <zzo38> It doesn't seems you can download those?
01:40:59 <shachaf> I don't know, but maybe you can talk to those people.
01:41:05 <shachaf> There are also other databases of cards.
01:42:42 <zzo38> If they aren't in SQLite format then maybe they can be converted into SQLite format.
01:43:57 <zzo38> From what I have seen Gatherer is still the best one so far, though.
01:48:18 <vanila> what's good about SQLite?
01:48:24 <vanila> I use it in websites
01:52:45 <zzo38> You can use SQLite in websites, but it can also be used standalone, which is how I normally use it.
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01:54:32 <zzo38> SQLite is a relatively simple SQL implementation, it stores the database in a single file, is public domain, is fast for small databases (it is fast for large databases too, but not as fast as larger implementations), and it supports virtual tables and INSTEAD OF triggers and a few other things.
01:55:02 <shachaf> zzo38: http://yawgatog.com/resources/oracle/
01:55:10 <zzo38> It is also easy to write extensions.
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01:58:42 <vanila> a virtual table sounds weird, isn't SELECT statement enough?
01:58:43 <zzo38> shachaf: Thank you that might help for converting into SQLite format.
01:58:59 <shachaf> You can also search it directly. It is a text file.
01:59:31 <zzo38> Yes, although I believe it would also be useful in SQLite format.
01:59:57 <zzo38> vanila: ???
02:00:19 <vanila> i can nest SQL select
02:00:27 <vanila> and I imagine that is powerful enough to replace virtual table?
02:01:21 <zzo38> Do you even know what a virtual table does?
02:02:43 <zzo38> O, SQLite also supports recursive WITH clauses and partial indices. Also, I find INSTEAD OF triggers are usually more useful than BEFORE and AFTER triggers.
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02:16:47 <zzo38> I made up some new rules and cards for Magic: the Gathering. Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/newmtg.txt
02:17:24 <shachaf> Why reinstate mana burn?
02:17:33 <shachaf> I've never played with mana burn and it seems like it would be annoying.
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02:19:51 <zzo38> For strategic purposes mainly.
02:20:06 <zzo38> But look at the card texts too.
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02:25:11 <oren> why can't I centre anything?
02:26:58 <vanila> I just realized something
02:27:08 <vanila> zzo38 appears last in a lot of lists that it appears in
02:27:43 <oren> yars.
02:27:51 <oren> so what? it begins with zz
02:27:55 <vanila> yes thats why
02:28:11 <oren> if you want first you do AA
02:28:28 <vanila> im not sure if that will wo rk well
02:28:31 <vanila> since aardvarks exist
02:28:35 <vanila> and aaron
02:28:39 <vanila> you might need to go triple a
02:28:44 <oren> or 00
02:28:49 <vanila> oh yeah true
02:30:27 <oren> what black sorcery does it take to vertically centre text in a div?
02:33:52 <boily> I could say jQuery, but I won't mention it.
02:38:25 <zzo38> My first name does start with AA, and my father changed his last name to Black so that his name would be close to the beginning of alphabetical lists.
02:39:07 <oren> boily: jquery doesn't seem to have it
02:44:34 <oren> oh it see. the font i'm using is uncentred. oh joy
02:45:37 <boily> the vagaries of web development...
02:46:21 <oren> i had the bright idea of making an RPG in javacript. I regret everything
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03:06:20 <oren> `unidecode 🔣
03:06:22 <HackEgo> U+1F523 INPUT SYMBOL FOR SYMBOLS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 a3 UTF-16BE: d83ddd23 Decimal: &#128291; \ 🔣 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
03:06:44 <oren> unicodeception
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03:24:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Isn't a token always a permanent right now?
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03:34:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes.
03:34:27 <zzo38> oren: Maybe you should make the RPG in SQL instead?
03:38:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Using {T} as the cost for loyalty abilities sounds worrying.
03:38:56 <shachaf> Untapping permanents isn't very difficult. They surely did it this way on purpose.
03:39:09 <shachaf> Though e.g. http://magiccards.info/query?q=!the+chain+veil exists.
03:40:38 <vanila> is there a UNIX command to "pop" a line out of a file
03:40:56 <vanila> using a file as a stack
03:40:59 <vanila> or queue
03:43:43 <zzo38> shachaf: OK I fixed that.
03:44:08 <zzo38> vanila: I don't know of any, at least.
03:44:21 <shachaf> zzo38: What's the point of {T} loyalty abilities?
03:44:24 <vanila> im goingo to write it myself, called 'pop'
03:44:30 <shachaf> Just to make it easier to keep track of the state?
03:45:01 <vanila> it will be more efficient to truncate a line off a file, than move everthing back one line
03:45:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Mainly yes, but in unusual circumstances may do other things too.
03:45:22 <vanila> hm tail gves me the last time
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04:24:54 <shachaf> zzo38: Why not make losing the game as a result of attempting to draw a card a state-based action?
04:26:42 <shachaf> zzo38: http://mtgjson.com/
04:26:53 <zzo38> It just doesn't make complete sense to me, since that would require the state of the game to include such a feature; it seems simpler to make it not a state-based action; this also would affect some unusual situations.
04:27:25 <shachaf> I was wondering which situations it would affect.
04:27:35 <shachaf> It seems like state-based actions are the usual way to handle that sort of thing?
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04:30:52 <Solace> oren why is that unicode so long
04:30:59 <Solace> or the catagory
04:31:17 <zzo38> That JSON data is good idea. Virtual table module can be one way to convert it into SQLite format. (Another virtual table module could then be used to convert into another different format too.)
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04:34:34 <Solace> how does one render 16 million colours on a bit map
04:35:15 <Jafet> vanila: depending on what "pop" is used for, you should probably create a new file and rename it atomically.
04:38:35 <zzo38> shachaf: It would affect the situation in case someone is both losing all life and being unable to draw a card at the same time. (I am also curious what the old Fourth Edition rules are regarding this situation. I have a Magic: the Puzzing book, so it would help to know such thing.)
04:39:04 <zzo38> And, what is your opnions of some of the cards I have put in? (Note that sometimes I update them even a few seconds ago and a few minutes in the future.)
04:40:03 <Jafet> For example: x=$(mktemp --tmpdir "$(dirname "$1")"); l=$(tail -n 1 "$1"); head -n -1 "$1" >"$x"; mv "$x" "$1"; echo "$l"
04:43:29 <Sgeo> An open-source fanatic friend says no one will use my project if I don't open source it
04:43:44 <Jafet> Well, he is probably half right.
04:43:55 <zzo38> Sgeo: It depend what your project is, probably. What is the project anyways?
04:44:12 <Sgeo> Not sure if I really want to say on here
04:44:20 <Sgeo> It's just a sorting of Google Maps API data though
04:44:35 <zzo38> Open-sourcing it will nevertheless probably improve its usefulness.
05:05:40 <zzo38> O, they also have mana symbols in SVG; that may help in order to convert it into a typeface.
05:08:25 <Sgeo> shachaf: where's prismatajson?
05:09:50 <shachaf> Sgeo: http://blog.prismata.net/units/ hth
05:15:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: http://prismata.gamepedia.com/index.php?title=Category:Unit_data has some unit data.
05:15:45 <shachaf> Do you want to play a game?
05:16:27 <vanila> why don't you open source it
05:18:58 <Sgeo> I might want to make money on it. Although I guess I can both have ads and open-source it
05:19:01 <Sgeo> I'm still undecided
05:20:38 * Sgeo is also undecided whether to play shachaf in Prismata right now
05:20:56 <Solace> Put lots of invisible banner ads on it
05:21:33 <Solace> Then open source it layer a couple ssh's over it encrypt all of it and then no one can use eet
05:21:47 <Solace> Screeeee
05:25:15 <shachaf> imo decide
05:25:26 * Sgeo decides he needs to drink water
05:26:14 <zzo38> You can open-source it and still earn money; there are several ways to do so. For example the GUI version is you can charge money and/or put ads in it, command-line version is an open-source software package
05:26:49 <Solace> Make it force pull $3000 from their paypals
05:27:23 <zzo38> That's cheating and anyways not everyone is using Paypal or has that much in their account even if they do.
05:27:48 <Solace> Uh ;-;
05:27:54 <Solace> Packet sniffer
05:28:09 <Solace> Idk I give illegal suggestions
05:28:12 <Solace> Don't mind ne
05:28:19 <Solace> me*
05:28:42 * Sgeo won't play Prismata right now
05:29:01 <Solace> whatis prismata?
05:29:31 <Sgeo> http://prismata.net/
05:30:08 <Solace> Ty
05:30:29 * Solace proceeds to click the link after 17 weeks
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06:10:28 <oren> 🍔🍟🎮😊
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06:21:00 <GeekDude> Isn't prismata that game that was basically jumpstarted by reddit?
06:24:18 <Solace> Do you crave that mineral?
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06:30:45 <Sgeo> GeekDude: yes
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07:52:38 <FreeFull> Solace: Might as well encrypt their data and ask for money to decrypt
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08:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folders]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41590 * Keymaker * (+828) Clarifications?
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10:18:04 <[{Oren}]> i still don't understand why the icon for a zip archive on windows is a folder with a zipper on it
10:18:20 <elliott> didn't you just answer your own question
10:18:46 <[{Oren}]> why not use a proper metaphor instead of a stupid pun?
10:19:11 <oerjan> is it a pun?
10:19:15 <[{Oren}]> like haha .zip zipper
10:19:49 <oerjan> or, if it is a pun, are you sure microsoft made it?
10:20:19 <[{Oren}]> i haven't got any special icon sets installed (afaik)
10:20:35 <oerjan> i mean, are you sure "zip" wasn't made for that pun
10:20:54 <oerjan> also, making metaphors into icons is hard.
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10:21:22 <shachaf> oerjan: it was named after pkzip obviously hth
10:22:16 <oerjan> ok maybe not "The name "zip" (meaning "move at high speed") was suggested by Katz's friend, Robert Mahoney."
10:22:36 <shachaf> whoa
10:23:53 <oerjan> if God was the first pun, then who made God
10:24:13 <[{Oren}]> http://snag.gy/Al52E.jpg
10:24:20 <shachaf> fun puns
10:24:35 <[{Oren}]> anyway the zipper is in a nonsensical place
10:25:04 <oerjan> although, pretty sure "zipper" must have been made from that verb too...
10:25:08 <int-e> oerjan: Yeah I won't believe that they were unaware of the other meanings. (the decompressor was pkunzip -- would that mean "make slow"?)
10:26:56 <oerjan> i get this feeling everyone in the channel except me is into manga style these days
10:27:06 <oerjan> (of course i have no style)
10:27:09 <[{Oren}]> oppa manga style!
10:28:06 <oerjan> [{Oren}]: i see no zipper in that image :(
10:28:25 <shachaf>
10:29:19 <[{Oren}]> the "compressed folder" named "allegro" is the fourth one down on the left.
10:29:21 <oerjan> ``unidecode ꊐ # ha ha
10:29:21 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `unidecode: not found
10:29:28 <oerjan> wat
10:29:42 <[{Oren}]> `unidecode ꊐ
10:29:42 <HackEgo> ​[U+A290 YI SYLLABLE ZIP]
10:29:56 <oerjan> oh
10:30:40 <[{Oren}]> `unidecode 名
10:30:41 <HackEgo> ​[U+540D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-540D]
10:30:57 <[{Oren}]> that is an extremely unhelpful name
10:31:01 <oerjan> you thin
10:31:02 <oerjan> k
10:33:28 <[{Oren}]> `unidecode 狗
10:33:28 <HackEgo> ​[U+72D7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-72D7]
10:33:48 <[{Oren}]> it sure is 72D7 isn't it
10:34:19 <shachaf> it's an ideological system hth
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10:36:33 <oerjan> the han unification ideology
10:38:20 <[{Oren}]> that character means dog in every languageit is used in... why can't they just say CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH DOG
10:39:05 <b_jonas> I'll have to re-check this, I may have been stupid yesterday
10:39:16 <[{Oren}]> also nowadays it should just be CJ unification since K aren't using them anymore
10:39:23 <Jafet> It should just be CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH 狗 hth
10:41:03 <oerjan> [{Oren}]: they aren't?
10:41:52 <oerjan> when did south korea stop sprinkling kanji into everything, i heard that was a major difference between them and north korea
10:42:02 <oerjan> (once upon a time)
10:42:48 <[{Oren}]> oerjan: apparently they stopped in the 1990's
10:42:53 <oerjan> huh
10:43:35 <oerjan> live and learn
10:44:22 <[{Oren}]> yeah, so it went from CJKV to CJK and now it should just be CJ
10:48:36 <Jafet> "Formal hanja education begins in grade 7 (junior high school) and continues until graduation from senior high school in grade 12. A total of 1,800 hanja are taught: 900 for junior high, and 900 for senior high (starting in grade 10)."
10:50:20 <Jafet> So it's latin
10:50:37 <[{Oren}]> oh... i see
10:51:03 <int-e> Jafet: "Only Latin capital letters A to Z (U+0041..U+0056), ASCII digits (U+0030..U+0039), U+0020 space, and U+002D hyphen-minus occur in character names."
10:51:41 <Jafet> Such privileges
10:52:28 <b_jonas> int-e: I thought the allowed selection was a bit larger,
10:52:28 <shachaf> someone should tell those folks about unicode
10:52:31 <shachaf> it's 2015
10:52:34 <b_jonas> as in, all iso-646 invariant printable characters
10:52:35 <int-e> (Unicode, chapter 4.8)
10:52:43 <int-e> shachaf: ehe
10:52:45 <b_jonas> so basically commas or slashes cuold appear
10:52:48 <elliott> int-e: hmm, is that a statement of what is /allowed/ or just what happens to be true?
10:53:00 <b_jonas> and I think at least one more character actually appears, let me look it up
10:53:21 <int-e> b_jonas: looks like a hard rule to me.
10:53:50 <Jafet> Probably a rule for subcommittees.
10:54:44 <Jafet> I don't think there's even any systematic way of enumerating the han characters by shape
10:54:47 <[{Oren}]> Anyway i see now reason then why 漢 could not be CJ UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH HAN
10:56:13 <[{Oren}]> Jafet: there is the tried and true radical/stroke number system but it doesn't really work for simplified characters
10:56:25 <b_jonas> Jafet: shape? _shape_? the shape isn't what determines the characters, it's the historical fluff loaded on it. that's true even for latin. O and О are different characters even if they have the same shape.
10:56:26 <oerjan> CJ UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH COMPOSED OF RADICAL WITH TWO SHORT DOWNWARD DIAGONAL STROKES ABOVE A LONG UPWARD DIAGONAL STROKE AND RADICAL GOD WHAT A MESS
10:57:06 <[{Oren}]> so as expected, it should be by the meaning
10:57:58 <Jafet> I think most han ideographs are uniquely determined by shape
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10:58:10 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: but the meaning can change, and you can't ever be sure what meanings a character will get that all languages that will ever be transcribed with kanji in the future um I've got this sentence tangled up
10:58:18 <b_jonas> Jafet: not the unified ones, that's the point
10:59:12 <b_jonas> Jafet: of course, the unified ones (that unify different characters from simplified chinese, traditional chinese, and japanese) are a historical artifact that should never have happened (the reason was that they only had the space for about 65536 characters)
10:59:49 <oerjan> `unidecode OО
10:59:50 <HackEgo> ​[U+004F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+041E CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER O]
11:00:07 <[{Oren}]> unicode is far from futureproof anyway
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11:00:16 <oerjan> imagine if they'd done latin-cyrillic greek unification
11:00:21 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: sure, there are mistakes and even plain typos in the character names
11:00:23 <oerjan> *-
11:00:46 <[{Oren}]> oerjan: i have done that in a font for a game
11:00:57 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think that would have been pointless. there's only like one character you can share with greek (o) and about two or three you can share with cyrillic
11:01:04 <oerjan> somewhere out there is a parallel universe where china invented the internet and they did just that.
11:01:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh hm well if you have to keep upper and lower case together...
11:02:09 <oerjan> imagine this system being made by completely culture-ignorant chinese
11:02:11 <[{Oren}]> if china was more powerful then japan and taiwan would just have to make due with simplified characters
11:02:25 <oerjan> so they unify latin P with russian R
11:02:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, admittedly that's already sort of fucked up with the turkish i and the two different cyrillic lowercase shapes
11:02:50 <b_jonas> there's just no easy solution for those, some software really has to know about the details to handle those
11:03:54 <b_jonas> hmm, I was wrong, indeed all character names use only those characters
11:04:10 <oerjan> i wonder how much internationalized software out there _actually_ handles russian numbers correctly
11:04:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: russian numbers? what?
11:04:55 <b_jonas> but of course most software handles internationalized anything wrong
11:05:08 <oerjan> b_jonas: this isn't a character issue, but combining a number and a noun in russian has at least 5 different inflection combinations
11:05:54 <Jafet> Most software don't even handle 1 languages correctly
11:05:58 <oerjan> you need to know how to inflect the nouns
11:05:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: dunno, ask ais523, he's the one who's worked on that kind of crazy phrase making software. well, some of my colleagues have too.
11:06:10 <oerjan> oh he has?
11:06:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: not Russian in particular, but he's started to wrote a branch of nethack4 called grammartree, currently sleeping, that tries to handle translation well in general
11:07:06 <b_jonas> and also improving messages in English, which is no easy task beacuse nethack's handling of English is quite good already most of the times
11:07:13 <b_jonas> (though there are small mistakes)
11:07:53 <b_jonas> but it turns out grammartree was too large a task so he's concentrating on other stuff instead, and the trunk has drifted far enough that grammartree is not even easy to merge I think
11:08:09 <b_jonas> but anyway, the basics of grammartree might be helpful, it seems to be some ultra-general system thingy
11:08:09 <oerjan> b_jonas: mainly i'm thinking of this because the yesod web framework in haskell has a documentation page on internationalization, and mentions the russian problem as something you want an advanced system for, but does _not_ show that (or anything similarly complicated) as an actual code example
11:08:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: have you checked if icu has code for this russian numbers thing? they have some sort of number formatting stuff
11:09:03 <[{Oren}]> interesting fact: because Shift-JIS encodes greek and russian with two bytes, these characters are displayed wide on Japanese fonts
11:09:12 <oerjan> ...i don't even do this kind of coding myself, so no
11:09:23 <b_jonas> (and no interface for finding the date of Easter in their calendar handling, it seems)
11:09:45 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: yeah, crazy historical stuff
11:10:07 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: that's where the weird single width kana come from
11:10:12 <[{Oren}]> the fact they even decided that 2 bytes = wide character is crazy
11:10:46 <zzo38> [{Oren}]: Are you sure it is really crazy? It make a few sense to me.
11:10:54 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: oh come on, that does make sense. think of teletext, where the color changing codes take up a column, so that it can be decoded by very simple circuits
11:11:16 <[{Oren}]> it could guarantee that strlen is the width of the string...
11:11:23 <zzo38> The part of Shift-JIS which is bad is that it sometimes interferes with ASCII characters.
11:11:32 <zzo38> But, 2 bytes = wide character is not bad.
11:11:36 <b_jonas> (teletext also has different and incompatible codepages, so if you're watching with the television made for the wrong country, you'll see garbled accented characters. that happens with some old basic-based personal computers too.)
11:12:58 <b_jonas> from http://userguide.icu-project.org/formatparse/numbers I think it doesn't handle that
11:13:07 <b_jonas> not fully I mean
11:13:21 <b_jonas> it may have a way to format numbers with different inflections
11:13:50 <oerjan> here in norway, teletext frequently shows swedish letters instead of norwegian ones
11:13:59 <oerjan> or at least used to
11:16:01 <b_jonas> as in ö instead of ø ? or more fucked up?
11:16:20 <b_jonas> no wait, I mean Ö instead of Ø
11:16:27 <b_jonas> (lowercase letters... what was I thinking)
11:16:33 <oerjan> yeah
11:16:50 <oerjan> noticeable but not a real problem
11:17:44 <b_jonas> do modern television receivers handle all that correctly? I mean, they're certainly technically capable to store all the different codepages and use the right one.
11:18:32 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm going to suspect that their ORDINAL rule cannot even handle romance languages (something like 1a vs. 1o dependent on gender)
11:19:14 <b_jonas> I hear from my brother that Swedish-speaking doctors in Norway sometimes dictate medical texts in Swedish and their secretary types them translated to Norwegian on the fly.
11:19:29 <oerjan> wat
11:20:18 <oerjan> do doctors even have secretaries these days.
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11:20:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: assistants. and not all of them have them of course, just some, so this isn't universal.
11:21:02 <b_jonas> But the texts doctors write have very few ordinary words, it's mostly medical jargon and abbreviations, so I imagine translating it isn't difficult.
11:22:58 <[{Oren}]> my dad once translated a bulgarian math paper into russian. he has very little knowledge of wither language
11:23:00 <b_jonas> But they certainly have assistants because there are too few doctors but enough assistants.
11:23:46 <b_jonas> [{Oren}]: yes, math is like that too. it's much easier to learn to read english or french or german or russian math papers than to really learn those languages. the vocabulary is small.
11:23:48 <oerjan> i once translated an english medical text into norwegian for my aunt
11:24:19 <b_jonas> these days most of the papers are English or Chinese, so I never really had to learn that skill, but still.
11:25:28 <oerjan> western scientists are going to be so hosed when chinese really takes off as a scientific language
11:25:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: nah, quite a lot of the papers they write are worthless
11:26:01 <b_jonas> the papers they write in chinese that is
11:26:09 <[{Oren}]> japanese scientists could read both
11:26:17 <oerjan> b_jonas: by taking off, i mean in quality as well, of course
11:26:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe
11:26:25 <oerjan> as in, can no longer be ignored
11:27:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: but aren't math papers at that point (possibly not those in other sciences) still supposed to have a small vocabulary, so they're easy to read (even if not write)?
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11:29:00 <oerjan> well i wasn't talking about math specifically
11:29:34 <b_jonas> You mean like biologists? They might be more screwed, yeah
11:29:36 <oerjan> although i still think chinese would be worse; with german/french you can still recognize all the latin/greek-derived words in common
11:29:48 <b_jonas> sure, it would be somewhat worse
11:30:36 <oerjan> *far* worse, if you can never guess what a word means...
11:30:46 <oerjan> from its form
11:30:59 <b_jonas> you don't have to guess. look it up in a dictionary. come on, we're living on the internet age.
11:31:07 <oerjan> ...fair point.
11:31:27 <b_jonas> computers are already making finding and reading research papers much easier in many ways.
11:31:29 <Jafet> Hopefully some of those improved-quality publications concern automatic translation
11:33:37 <Jafet> On the other hand, nearly all computer science publications worth reading are written in english
11:35:07 <oerjan> i suppose when you're already using an english-based programming language...
11:35:22 <[{Oren}]> and english based libraries
11:36:17 <b_jonas> Jafet: meh, I don't care much about computer science publications.
11:39:20 <zzo38> What is the rule in Magic: the Gathering if the type of a creature being haunted changes into something that isn't a creature?
11:39:45 <zzo38> O wait, now I see.
11:39:48 <zzo38> Never mind
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11:49:00 <b_jonas> there's such a rule? I think the haunting continues to work
11:49:46 <b_jonas> I think there's a general rule that effects saying things like "that creature" referencing an object selected earlier still work even if the referenced object is no longer of that type
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11:51:30 <b_jonas> though of course some particular effects could have specific rules overriding this
12:04:20 <zzo38> Actually, rule 702.54b clarifies it so that is how I already saw
12:04:40 <zzo38> The haunting does continue to work.
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12:14:21 <zzo38> Did you see the new cards I made in newmtg.txt? Now I added some, such as "Hide Attackers".
12:15:45 <zzo38> (It is an instant with Ninjutsu; that is pretty strange, isn't it?)
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12:17:12 <zzo38> I assume that Vigilance does not prevent a card with Ninjutsu from coming into play tapped.
12:17:44 <zzo38> I also assume that Defender does not prevent Ninjutsu from working.
12:25:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: what newmtg.txt?
12:29:55 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/newmtg.txt
12:33:05 <zzo38> Is there any Magic: the Puzzling that invokes rule 514.3a?
12:36:07 <b_jonas> um, wait a minute, which rule is that, do I even have a copy of the latest version of the rules?
12:36:31 <b_jonas> "These rules are effective as of June 1, 2014." -- that's old
12:36:50 <zzo38> That is the rule that allows players to have priority during a cleanup step if state-based or triggers occur at that time.
12:37:15 <b_jonas> oh, I've heared of that rule, yes
12:38:56 <b_jonas> "These rules are effective as of September 25, 2014." - better
12:39:06 <b_jonas> yes, that's what 514.3a says
12:42:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: here's what I was wondering. would it be sane for white to have a counterspell like this: name: Fair Duel. mana cost: 1W. type: Instant. abilities: Cast Fair Duel only during combat. Counter target spell.
12:43:12 <zzo38> I don't know. It looks like OK to me, but I don't know.
12:43:41 <zzo38> I will add it anyways for now.
12:44:11 <b_jonas> “Losing the game due to being unable to draw a card is now part of the definition of drawing a card (rather than a state-based action), and occurs immediately, before state-based actions are checked.” - oh, sounds like a good change!
12:44:44 <zzo38> There are cards too, not only rules in there!
12:46:07 <b_jonas> “Loyalty abilities have {T} as part of their cost.” - what? wouldn't that make the middle ability of Gideon, Champion of Justice very difficult to use effectively?
12:46:51 <zzo38> Yes.
12:47:19 <b_jonas> and apparently Khans has another similar planeswalker: Sharkan, the Dragonspeaker
12:47:48 <b_jonas> but even without this, what purpose would that change serve?
12:47:54 <zzo38> I deleted that paragraph now.
12:48:04 <b_jonas> ok
12:49:48 <zzo38> (You may want to reload; I don't know if you have the newest version with other minor changes too.)
12:50:53 <b_jonas> oh dear, Aether Hack sounds scary
12:51:18 <b_jonas> does it let me change -1/-1 counters to +2/+2 counters? or whatever is the best counter in existance
12:51:22 <zzo38> No!
12:51:45 <zzo38> Only references to named (not +X/+X and -X/-X) counters can be changed.
12:52:45 <zzo38> I added that clarification.
12:53:21 <b_jonas> (+2/+2 and -2/-2 seems to be the best)
12:53:25 <b_jonas> can you change to poison counters?
12:53:29 <zzo38> Yes.
12:53:44 <b_jonas> not that it helps much, because players barely get other counters
12:54:24 <zzo38> Yes, exactly that.
12:55:26 <b_jonas> so I can't change _from_ -1/-1 counters either?
12:55:30 <b_jonas> ok
12:55:34 <b_jonas> ah, it says "named counter" now
12:56:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct it can't change _from_ -1/-1 or +1/+1 counters either.
12:58:46 <b_jonas> what cards are there that refer to any type of counter, besides Aether Snap, Clockspinning, and Giant Fan?
12:59:18 <zzo38> Also, it cannot change counters that are already on a permanent, although it may partially or fully stop those counters from working.
12:59:49 <b_jonas> sure, but it can make a spell enter the battlefield with the wrong type of counters
13:00:26 <zzo38> Yes, it can, in some cases.
13:00:30 <b_jonas> hmm, a super-strong Searchlight that adds to each player's mana pool? weird
13:00:52 <b_jonas> Change Designation - um, doesn't this break some sort of rules?
13:01:01 <b_jonas> plus it might be hard to track because it doesn't time out
13:01:11 <b_jonas> well, at least it's an aura
13:01:12 <b_jonas> but still
13:01:29 <zzo38> It does expire when the aura is removed (or its ability is removed).
13:01:34 <b_jonas> yeah
13:01:46 <zzo38> What kind of rules is it breaking exactly?
13:01:52 <b_jonas> dunno, let me think
13:02:10 <b_jonas> it might not break any
13:02:23 <b_jonas> because you can mostly already change names with copy effects
13:02:49 <b_jonas> it lets you double Legendary creatures under the same control of course,
13:03:00 <b_jonas> or help or hinder Echoing spells
13:03:06 <b_jonas> but that's not rules breakage
13:03:33 <b_jonas> Biovisionary… what the heck is this? is that card for real?
13:03:46 <b_jonas> wow
13:04:11 <b_jonas> Simic at its best
13:06:15 <b_jonas> I guess it might let you get Kaldra a bit earlier, but that's also no problem
13:09:29 <b_jonas> Diligent Farmhand … what the heck? do cards like that really exist?
13:09:33 <b_jonas> I find strange things
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13:15:14 <b_jonas> what the heck...
13:17:13 <b_jonas> ah, I see
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13:22:00 <b_jonas> what the heck, there's an aura in Fallen Empires that gives a creature the homarid abilities?
13:22:03 <b_jonas> wow
13:22:23 <b_jonas> (well, technically it doesn't)
13:24:36 <b_jonas> "{(3/R)}" - now really
13:24:39 <b_jonas> that would be confusing
13:32:55 <b_jonas> Control Yourself -- a bit narrow, but could work against Lure abilities, or possibly on cards with activated abilities an opponent can play
13:33:14 <zzo38> Yes, although maybe the name should be changed too
13:33:23 <b_jonas> like Clergy of the Holy Nimbus
13:33:36 <b_jonas> or that undamagable stone lion thing
13:33:58 <zzo38> Yes, that is some of the uses of this card.
13:34:47 <b_jonas> technically it could also protect you if you're going to be mindslaved
13:35:17 <b_jonas> hmm, Aether Storm
13:35:26 <b_jonas> no wait, it doesn't help for that
13:35:33 <b_jonas> not much at least
13:37:32 <b_jonas> that lion thing is Glittering Lion
13:38:37 <b_jonas> oh, maybe also "must attack" creatures, there are a lot of those
13:38:48 <b_jonas> (or "must block")
13:40:39 <zzo38> Yes.
13:42:23 <b_jonas> Corrupt Council - what the... how does this work? Basically, if you activate its ability, then you want to vote "yes", and then the opponent may have him draw a card in exchange for you drawing three cards?
13:42:31 <b_jonas> plus some lifegain.
13:42:45 <b_jonas> unless you have extra votes or something.
13:43:33 <zzo38> Yes it is how it works. But I don't know possibly the costs should be changed?
13:43:45 <b_jonas> no idea
13:44:55 <zzo38> Well, I fixed it so that whoever win a vote has to pay {1} before gaining 1 life and/or drawing 1 card.
13:45:28 <b_jonas> Diamond of Many Colors - why does this say "All mana in your mana pool is changed into a single color of your choice." rather than "Change all mana in your mana pool into a single color of your choice."?
13:45:49 <zzo38> I could change the wording if that would help.
13:46:28 <b_jonas> though this seems somewhat inefficient to me, and I'd rarely use it over that shaman guy
13:46:47 <b_jonas> the snake shaman
13:47:01 <b_jonas> Orochi Leafcaller
13:47:32 <b_jonas> I mean, I would like more tools for coloring mana infinitely, but this seems underpowered to me
13:48:40 <b_jonas> whoa... Emblegoyf gets +1/+1 for each object in the command zone... wait a minute
13:49:01 <b_jonas> does that get like 20/20 if there's a pack of Archenemy schemes there?
13:49:20 <b_jonas> and if you play it in Archenemy, that's guaranteed
13:49:25 <zzo38> Yes, probably the cost is too low
13:49:36 <b_jonas> no, the problem is that you can't cost it correctly
13:49:46 <b_jonas> because in archenemy, it's always a 20/20 creature
13:49:48 <zzo38> Either that it maybe it should be banned, or apply only to emblems
13:50:41 <b_jonas> are emblems even objects?
13:51:14 <b_jonas> yes, they are objects
13:51:14 <b_jonas> ok
13:51:39 <zzo38> Or possibly only face-up objects.
13:51:58 <b_jonas> are emblems even face up?
13:52:27 <zzo38> I don't know what the rule is, but I assume it is if it isn't face-down.
13:52:39 <b_jonas> well, whatever
13:53:32 <b_jonas> Energy Conversation ... hmm, this is funny
13:54:39 <zzo38> I now changed it to "non-face-down object"
13:56:20 <b_jonas> Epicize is scary, but it has a high cost
13:57:23 <zzo38> And it can be removed with Disenchant.
13:57:43 <b_jonas> but doesn't it makes games boring and non-interactive once you cast it?
13:58:13 <b_jonas> like that deck I made that quickly gains me infinite life but then takes its sweet time to wait until the opponents are decked
13:58:21 <b_jonas> and tries to refill my library
13:58:22 <zzo38> You can still do stuff other than cast spells.
13:58:26 <b_jonas> well sure
13:58:37 <b_jonas> and my opponents can still do stuff other than damage me
13:58:58 <b_jonas> they can try to counter my stuff that refills my library, which is the most effective tactics but only because that part of my deck sucked,
13:59:37 <b_jonas> I wonder, what spells of your own can it be worth to cast Epicize?
14:02:06 <b_jonas> hmm, a 2/2 creature with flying, trample, first strike costing any two different colors of mana, isn't that a bit overpowered in a two-colored deck?
14:02:39 <b_jonas> hey! I was serious about the exact text of Fair Duel
14:02:43 <zzo38> It has affinity for lands too though
14:03:15 <b_jonas> Angelic Favor says "Cast Angelic Favor only during combat."
14:03:18 <b_jonas> that's the text this should have too
14:03:36 <zzo38> OK I fixed Fair Duel except that it refers to itself using a tilde.
14:03:36 <b_jonas> not "Can be used only during", that makes it look like some old card back before sane templating
14:03:45 <b_jonas> better, thanks
14:03:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh wait, you mean the affinity is mandatory
14:04:10 <b_jonas> so if I have five lands it can only get one +1/+1 counter?\
14:04:11 <b_jonas> whos
14:04:29 <b_jonas> tricky
14:04:37 <b_jonas> yes, then it might be not so overpowered
14:04:40 <zzo38> Yes, I believe affinity is mandatory.
14:04:44 <b_jonas> interesting construction
14:06:46 <b_jonas> Fast Aging ... what's that good for? countering permanents that already have cumulative upkeep?
14:08:11 <zzo38> One thing it is capable of doing is allow its controller to sacrifice it during their upkeep if they do not want that card anymore, even if it does not already have cumulative upkeep.
14:08:19 <b_jonas> Hex Shield - that's like an improved Diplomatic Immunity?
14:08:58 <zzo38> Yes it is like that.
14:10:24 <b_jonas> in Human Supremacy Corporation, the template should be "This ability may be activated by any player." instead of "Can be used by anyone."
14:10:38 <b_jonas> no wait
14:10:49 <b_jonas> it's "Any player may activate this ability."
14:10:51 <b_jonas> sorry
14:10:55 <zzo38> OK
14:11:30 <zzo38> Next card I also fixed in the same way.
14:13:19 <b_jonas> oh, Instant Infection can target spells or non-creature permanents... interesting
14:13:53 <b_jonas> if I target a spell, does it keep that ability if that spell resolves to a permanent? my guess is no, but I'm not sure about the rules
14:14:06 <b_jonas> hmm wait
14:14:08 <b_jonas> maybe it does
14:14:15 <zzo38> I believe it does; an object moving from the stack into play doesn't reset.
14:14:18 <b_jonas> where's the Lace rule
14:14:32 <b_jonas> um, no
14:14:39 <b_jonas> it does reset, but there's a large exception I think
14:14:48 <b_jonas> it keeps some of its characteristic changes
14:14:49 <b_jonas> or something
14:14:51 <b_jonas> let me look it up
14:15:34 <b_jonas> rule 400.7a
14:15:38 <zzo38> I don't really know, let me look it up too, but I thought at least it didn't used to reset in some version of the rules? I'm not sure
14:15:51 <b_jonas> "400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes."
14:15:55 <b_jonas> so it keeps infect
14:15:56 <zzo38> O, yes that's correct.
14:16:50 <b_jonas> also I think there's a rule somewhere that face down spells resolve face down
14:17:10 <b_jonas> to a face down permanent
14:17:19 <zzo38> Yes
14:17:40 <b_jonas> Knowledge Enforcer - hmm, a reverse magpie
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14:18:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Budget]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41591&oldid=41560 * Oerjan * (+162) You're right
14:18:28 <b_jonas> Landscape Formation - ah, this is that one you were asking about
14:19:17 <b_jonas> you didn't dare to call it "Yo Mama So Fat He's Got His Own Postal Code" or "Officer, I Hit Him Because I Didn't Have Enough Gas To Drive Around Him"
14:19:30 <b_jonas> I guess you could still put that in the flavor text
14:19:52 <zzo38> Those names are silly and long, but yes they could be used in flavor text if anyone renders the cards.
14:20:12 <zzo38> (Of course, different renders can have different flavor text and/or different art.)
14:20:49 <b_jonas> Magical Armory - what the, can you even have a non-equipment just gain equip?
14:21:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Budget]]": Off topic and uninteresting
14:21:27 <b_jonas> yes, I think you can
14:21:29 <b_jonas> still, strange
14:21:45 <zzo38> The rules do not seem to prohibit it.
14:22:37 <b_jonas> um, why does Magus of Suspension have that last ability?
14:22:44 <b_jonas> how is it related to the rest?
14:23:08 <b_jonas> Master of the Dragons - oh no, another Old Fogey!
14:23:31 <zzo38> It isn't but I put it there to allow doing more damage, but maybe it shouldn't be?
14:24:30 <zzo38> (If Magical Armory is played on a global enchantment, I think the Equip ability is still usable but does nothing in such a case.)
14:25:58 <b_jonas> dunno, maybe make it 1/2 and give it an activated switch power and toughness ability
14:27:12 <zzo38> OK
14:27:13 <b_jonas> or just remove it entirely and assume blue players will figure out something interesting to do with it rather than just want it to deal more damage
14:27:26 <zzo38> Yes probably that is better OK
14:27:34 <b_jonas> those five paragraphs don't even fit easily on a card
14:27:45 <b_jonas> though you could try to put the first four in the same paragraph
14:28:03 <b_jonas> no wait
14:28:06 <b_jonas> suspend should be on its own
14:28:27 <b_jonas> how about "Suspend 4 -- {U}" as the first paragraph, then "Vanishing 4, flying" as the second
14:28:58 <b_jonas> in Master of the Dragons, don't capitalize all those abilities individually
14:29:04 <zzo38> OK, yes it can help to do that as am abbreviation.
14:29:35 <b_jonas> and don't capitalize "Dragons" either
14:29:52 <zzo38> Aren't subtypes always capitalized though?
14:30:18 <b_jonas> hmm wait, maybe they are
14:30:58 <b_jonas> yes, it seems so from Nath's Buffoon
14:31:04 <b_jonas> ok, so "Dragons" should remain capitalized
14:31:29 <b_jonas> and change "Usable only during your turn." to something like "Activate this ability only during your turn."
14:32:03 <zzo38> OK
14:33:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41592&oldid=41587 * Oerjan * (+39) author, links
14:33:20 <b_jonas> Master Switch - bringing back the old rules like Jar Jar Binks from Droidekar does? hmm
14:33:36 <b_jonas> what next? will you add a card with an ability that reinstates mana burn?
14:33:53 <zzo38> Well, it stops working itself once its own activated ability is used
14:34:13 <b_jonas> uh... what?
14:34:21 <b_jonas> I don't think it does
14:34:34 <zzo38> No it says it only works while untapped
14:34:39 <b_jonas> oh
14:34:40 <b_jonas> hmm
14:34:53 <b_jonas> then I don't know how this would work
14:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Yearcats]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41593&oldid=38196 * Oerjan * (+26) Update
14:35:42 <zzo38> But if you have two then you can turn off one artifact.
14:37:17 <b_jonas> Modular Aura - interesting, that's a bit similar to Vigeaqn Hydropon
14:39:28 <b_jonas> Moon Monolith - hehe, so you'll have to remember which handful of cards are errataed to have color indicators? (Evermind, the suspend spells with no mana costs, Dryad Arbor I think)
14:40:10 <b_jonas> Painful Markings - whoa.... interesting, though I'm not sure it should be red
14:40:34 <zzo38> I could change the mana cost if it help to do so.
14:40:59 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure what color it should be really
14:41:18 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem to fit anywhere
14:42:54 <b_jonas> Personal Guard - wait what? how is a personal guard too slow to jump in front of a bullet? that's now how they work in Hollywood films
14:44:12 <b_jonas> isn't having to pay {1W} enough of a restriction to activate that ability reacting to a surprise?
14:44:41 <zzo38> Probably you are correct.
14:45:42 <zzo38> But even in such case you can still react during declare attackers/declare blockers step if the stack is empty.
14:45:55 <b_jonas> sure, but not for a Lightning Bolt
14:46:04 <b_jonas> or a javelin or arrow
14:46:21 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct.
14:46:40 <zzo38> For now I just changed the cost to {1} but later may make other changes.
14:46:57 <b_jonas> Scroll of Cryptic Runes - "Put target spell into play" - hehehe
14:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41594&oldid=41580 * Oerjan * (+80) wikify a bit
14:49:13 <b_jonas> um, can you paly that card with its madness ability if the stack isn't empty?
14:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vigil]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41595&oldid=41594 * Oerjan * (-5) On second thought, I don't think it fits our definition of "joke language"
14:49:48 <zzo38> Yes, I believe madness allows it.
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14:50:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41596&oldid=41574 * Oerjan * (+12) /* V */ Add Vigil
14:50:29 <b_jonas> oh right, stupid question
14:50:35 <b_jonas> yes, it does allow
14:51:14 <b_jonas> "Scroll of Protection" - hmm, I have a crazy card with protection somewhere
14:51:20 <b_jonas> um, not with protection
14:51:26 <b_jonas> but one that gives protection
14:51:30 <J_Arcane> Ugh. wtf. OK, trying to write an actual application in F# now, and I'm suddenly understanding why everyone hates writing code on MS platforms ...
14:51:35 <nys> always wear protection
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14:55:06 <J_Arcane> I just want to write a simple script that reads some text files and then outputs another text file, but apparently even predicting the current directory of an F# script/executable is non-trivial.
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14:56:07 <b_jonas> I think it was something like an aura that gives every creature protection from the enchanted permanent.
14:56:08 <J_Arcane> Script files default to a Windows temp directory, and executables build to a nested subfolder deep in the bowels of the project.
14:56:38 <J_Arcane> Oh, and of course, script files and source files have completely different behaviors when it comes to a main function. So that's fun.
14:57:41 <b_jonas> "Staff of Kicking" - how is this a staff rather than boots?
14:58:12 <zzo38> It is staff with boots on it; it is not equipment so it is not boots.
14:58:25 <b_jonas> Stone of Interruption - what
14:59:06 <b_jonas> how would you even activate that ability while there's a split second spell on the stack?
14:59:57 <zzo38> Split second doesn't stop mana abilities from being used.
15:00:11 <b_jonas> ah!
15:00:19 <zzo38> This ability meets the criteria for being a mana ability, therefore it can be used.
15:00:21 <b_jonas> Suppress Quality - how does this affect landwalk?
15:00:59 <b_jonas> and what does "not choosing any parameters" mean?
15:01:00 <zzo38> Causes all landwalk abilities to be lost.
15:01:16 <zzo38> It means you have to choose Landwalk, you can't choose Forestwalk or Swampwalk or whatever.
15:01:21 <b_jonas> oh!
15:01:30 <zzo38> You can use Protection, but not Protection from red or whatever like that.
15:01:52 <b_jonas> then put a comma before it, or possibly even rewrite it to more readable
15:02:09 <b_jonas> I thought it would apply only to parameterless keyword abilities like flying or trample, not parametered ones like enchant
15:02:13 <zzo38> Yes it could be rewritten but I am not quite sure how.
15:02:35 <b_jonas> so this works like that Wall thingy
15:02:45 <b_jonas> Rolling Stones
15:02:51 <b_jonas> only better because it can destroy all auras
15:03:11 <zzo38> Its cost is so high because it can do so many things.
15:03:15 <b_jonas> Tiny Shard - what?
15:04:01 <zzo38> The ability does nothing when it resolves.
15:04:11 <b_jonas> oh, then maybe write that explicitly
15:04:54 <zzo38> OK
15:05:25 <b_jonas> Totem Weakness - nice
15:05:49 <b_jonas> that's one of those auras that you can play for your own or an opponent's monster
15:06:08 <b_jonas> Triangle of Protection - NO WAY!
15:07:24 <b_jonas> hmm
15:07:34 <b_jonas> it might work, I dunno, but it's scary
15:08:14 <b_jonas> especially at such a low cost
15:08:36 <zzo38> Yes, I thought maybe it should be increased, but I don't know how much.
15:09:11 <b_jonas> Unearthed Arcana - again what
15:09:16 <b_jonas> what's that good for?
15:09:35 <b_jonas> I mean, how is it better than the same thing without splice?
15:09:36 <zzo38> Splicing other cards onto it mainly, I suppose.
15:09:46 <b_jonas> oh
15:09:47 <b_jonas> I see
15:09:56 <b_jonas> splicing stuff on it... yes, that might work
15:10:22 <b_jonas> thuogh we have better cards for that, like Reach Through Mists
15:10:34 <b_jonas> but why does it have the splice ability?
15:10:39 <b_jonas> how does that help it?
15:10:51 <b_jonas> Arcane helps you splice stuff on it, or lets you trigger stuff
15:10:55 <b_jonas> but splice why?
15:11:04 <zzo38> Possibly something might do something with that, even if no such card currently exists, I don't know for sure.
15:13:00 <b_jonas> Universal Salvation - nice
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15:13:23 <b_jonas> Wall of Attachment - doesn't seem very useful, but whatever
15:13:46 <b_jonas> hmm wait
15:13:50 <b_jonas> it might be useful
15:13:55 <b_jonas> dunno
15:14:05 <b_jonas> not sure if it is useful or not
15:15:26 <b_jonas> Wall of Demons - seems not very efficient to me
15:15:57 <b_jonas> but at least some people still like walls, even walls with power. wizards seems to have stopped printing them.
15:16:57 <b_jonas> thanks for sharing these cards
15:17:10 <zzo38> OK
15:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Trinary]]": Obsolete redirect
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15:22:16 <zzo38> Later I might write some more, but, not right now!
15:22:22 <b_jonas> or they reprint Wall of Wood over Steel Wall
15:23:01 <nys> Larry Wall
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15:59:29 <[{Oren}]> gcc -Wall
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17:08:48 <boily> @metar CYQB
17:08:49 <lambdabot> CYQB 041700Z 08015G21KT 3SM -FZRA -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2970 RMK SN2SC6 PRESFR SLP062
17:15:13 -!- perrier has joined.
17:24:46 <fizzie> Happy -FZRA -SN day to you, too.
17:24:55 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
17:24:55 <lambdabot> EGLL 041720Z VRB04KT 4100 BR FEW002 SCT003 BKN004 03/02 Q1036 NOSIG
17:25:05 <fizzie> I don't know what BR means.
17:25:32 <fizzie> (But those are some pretty low clouds.)
17:26:19 <fizzie> BR is apparently mist, due to what is undoubtedly a perfectly logical reason.
17:27:21 <olsner> iirc it's from the french word for mist
17:27:21 <Melvar> @metar EDDL
17:27:22 <lambdabot> EDDL 041720Z 25005KT 9999 FEW020 03/01 Q1035 NOSIG
17:27:23 <boily> BR is French «brouillard».
17:27:40 <boily> hellolsner. you ninjaed me.
17:28:00 <olsner> helloily
17:29:10 <olsner> I recalled a shorter word though, something like brume
17:31:47 <boily> oh. hm. mistake on my part. sorry.
17:31:58 <boily> BR is «brume», which is “mist”.
17:32:10 <boily> («brouillard» is “fog”.)
17:33:33 <boily> but then, according to the wikipédias, the terms refer to similar meteorological phenomenons, and are used differently depending on context.
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17:39:54 <olsner> `quote metar
17:39:55 <HackEgo> 989) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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17:51:22 <Taneb> `quote field of cows
17:51:23 <HackEgo> No output.
17:51:30 <Taneb> `quote field full of cows
17:51:31 <HackEgo> No output.
17:51:34 <Taneb> `quote cows
17:51:34 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 989) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows \ 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile o
17:51:50 <Taneb> I wanted that first one
17:52:11 <boily> `quote Taneb.*?cows
17:52:12 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
17:52:19 <Taneb> Oooh
17:52:20 <boily> ooooh, regexpes!
17:52:23 <Taneb> I did not know you could do that
17:52:29 <boily> neither did I.
17:53:14 <olsner> `quote through a cow
17:53:15 <HackEgo> 995) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark
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18:00:39 <fizzie> It's just a grep.
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18:11:45 <quintopia> boily!
18:14:12 <boily> quintopia!
18:14:27 <boily> fizzie: egrep or pgrep?
18:14:39 <boily> `` cat bin/quote
18:14:40 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
18:14:49 <boily> (ah, pgrep.)
18:15:01 <quintopia> you sure havent been on steam in a long time mr. cuttle
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18:15:45 <david8956> hi
18:15:54 <david8956> helo
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18:16:49 <boily> quintopia: >_>;...
18:18:09 <quintopia> is it work? work is too busy?
18:18:43 <boily> yeah. and tomorrow it starts again. bleh.
18:20:03 <quintopia> yeah same here
18:20:13 <quintopia> i need a better job
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18:20:35 <quintopia> anyone know a job with benefits and normal hours
18:21:53 <boily> hours are normal here, and always within standard deviation.
18:21:53 <olsner> random coder job? if you don't end up having to do overtime, that is
18:22:56 <quintopia> yeah sure
18:23:24 <quintopia> boily what is the stdev of hours there?
18:23:42 <quintopia> and are you sure they arent skewed left?
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18:26:32 <boily> quintopia: a workday amounts to 7.5 hours (contract definition), but longest I've had was 9, I believe.
18:26:52 <boily> (previous job was much worse. personal record was 14 hours straight, on a Saturday.)
18:26:55 <quintopia> and shortest?
18:27:22 <boily> without appointments and similar, 7 I think?
18:28:37 <quintopia> and how often is it 7 and how often is it 9?
18:30:15 <boily> we've had a bout of light workload after the big Major Release, and heavy duty just before that.
18:31:10 <boily> (not many people overtimed like crazy. I did a few days because I self-inflicted some stupid bright ideas on myself... in the end it did work out and saved the company a non-homeopathic amount of money, but never again.)
18:31:44 <quintopia> haha
18:31:50 <quintopia> well
18:31:59 <quintopia> what about me man
18:32:06 <boily> you man?
18:32:08 <quintopia> got anything for me?
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18:33:07 <boily> we're always open to people who can make their way with Java and/or C++, know linear algebra, and French.
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18:34:51 <quintopia> well that last one is a deal breaker. i havent the froggiedt how to frenxh
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18:39:05 <quintopia> p
18:42:04 <boily> frenxhp?
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18:52:14 <skj3gg> klb n,.
18:53:11 <skj3gg> ... sorry, cat thought the best path to the other side of the couch was across my computer
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18:56:38 <boily> [{Helloren}]
19:02:33 <Taneb> Orbyen?
19:25:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crewjony * New user account
19:26:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Crewjony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41597 * Crewjony * (+74) Created page with "0x29A is an esoteric programming language, invented by David Lewis in 2004"
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19:29:40 <fizzie> That's a strange.
19:30:02 <fizzie> I mean, it's the captcha question.
19:30:56 <ais523> I suspect it's a spambot
19:31:06 <ais523> desperately looking for anything apparently relevant to put on the page
19:42:46 <ais523> `unicode smiley face
19:42:47 <HackEgo> No output.
19:42:48 <ais523> hmm
19:43:02 <mroman> Somebody could make unicode captchas
19:43:27 <mroman> And then you have to enter the exact name of the character according to unicode
19:43:37 <mroman> `unicode small rectangle
19:43:37 <HackEgo> No output.
19:43:42 <mroman> `unicode rectangle
19:43:42 <HackEgo> U+2327 X IN A RECTANGLE BOX \ UTF-8: e2 8c a7 UTF-16BE: 2327 Decimal: &#8999; \ ⌧ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+25AC BLACK RECTANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 ac UTF-16BE: 25ac Decimal: &#9644; \ ▬ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+25AD WHITE RECTANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 ad UTF-16BE: 25a
19:44:17 <mroman> "Sorry, your answer 'X IN A RECTANGLE' was wrong."
19:56:06 <myname> Sorry, your answer 'invisible plus' was wrong.
20:05:03 <Sgeo> Make up a character and a name, and it has to get accepted into Unicode
20:09:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:12:11 <Taneb> Sgeo, GIRAFFE WEARING ROLLERBLADES EMOJI
20:12:52 <Sgeo> If it doesn't look like a giraffe wearing rollerblades, I think we can conclude you're not human
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21:08:40 <myname> is there any golfy way to swap the first two elements of a haskell list?
21:09:33 <coppro> myname: swapHeads (x1:x2:xs) = x2:x1:xs; swapHeads xs = xs ?
21:09:45 <ais523> coppro: that was pretty much what I was going to write
21:09:54 <ais523> but with a 1-letter name because it's golfed ;-)
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22:01:19 <Solace> Uh yeah FreeFull
22:01:45 <Solace> Although this was yesterday and I have no furthur need to talk about it
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22:25:03 <ais523> `2014
22:25:04 <HackEgo> No output.
22:36:09 <Jafet> `2016
22:36:09 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
22:45:25 <Taneb> ais523, did you forget what year it was
22:45:32 <ais523> Taneb: no
22:45:35 <ais523> just making sure it's still working
22:45:55 <Taneb> how could it concievably not work?
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23:11:25 <elliott> aw, I mised graue
23:11:29 <elliott> missed
23:11:30 <Sgeo> I think LSL poisoned my brain
23:11:54 <Sgeo> Trying to do Javascript. Desperately avoiding global variables by abusing closures. Everything is in one large function
23:12:54 <elliott> that's, um... literally what idiomatic javascript does
23:14:03 <Sgeo> That makes me feel better
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23:14:17 <elliott> fizzie: ais523: crewjony is obviously Johny of My name is Johny, what the F**K?????
23:14:29 <elliott> the prophecy is coming true
23:15:01 <elliott> Sgeo: like, you've seen the (function () { ... })(); thing, right?
23:15:08 <Sgeo> Yes
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23:17:42 <ais523> elliott: wasn't that a spambot, though?
23:17:48 <ais523> also, did you ever write that language?
23:18:08 <elliott> ais523: you clearly have no understanding of the scriptures
23:18:18 <elliott> the language can only be created by johny himself
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23:24:32 <oerjan> elliott: finally it all makes sense
23:27:15 <oerjan> <ais523> desperately looking for anything apparently relevant to put on the page <-- it's the spambot of the beast hth
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