00:02:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41626&oldid=41365 * Scoppini * (+368) Added XRF
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00:48:32 <ais523> oh, btw, I think XRF is a really interesting language
00:48:36 <ais523> at least the general concept
00:48:39 <ais523> not sure about the actual implementation
00:53:09 <tswett> I'm wondering if, for every point x in a topological space, there exists a countable collection C of open subsets of the space such that every open set containing x is a subset of all of the elements of C.
00:53:16 <tswett> I'm leaning towards no.
00:53:56 <tswett> Pretty sure it's true in every topological space with a countable basis. You can just let C be all the basis sets containing x, right?
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00:57:56 <tswett> Replace "collection C of open subsets of the space" with "collection C of open subsets of the space which contain x".
00:58:19 <shachaf> The empty set still works?
00:58:28 <tswett> What about the empty set?
00:59:10 <shachaf> It always works as C. Doesn't it?
00:59:16 <tswett> Ah, let C be the empty collection.
00:59:26 <tswett> Uh, I made another mistake somewhere.
00:59:41 <tswett> Okay, let me try yet again.
01:00:49 <tswett> For every topological space S, for every point x in S, there exists a countable collection C of neighborhoods of x, such that for every open set A, if A is a subset of every element of C, then A contains x.
01:07:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elyg * New user account
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01:18:15 <HackEgo> Orianny: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:18:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenir: not found
01:19:04 <tswett> Is "bienvenir" even a word?
01:19:10 <tswett> Can you "bienvenir" someone?
01:19:16 <HackEgo> Orianny: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
01:19:28 <tswett> But how do we know whether Orianny is an -o or an -a?
01:19:34 <tswett> We'd better also do the other one, just in case.
01:19:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenida: not found
01:19:42 <tswett> I guess that answers the question.
01:19:58 <tswett> Bienvenido/a, como estas?
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01:20:28 <tswett> Yo si hablo espanol, pero sin los acentos porque mi... como se dice "my keyboard sucks" en espanol?
01:22:56 <Orianny> que bueno y de donde eres ?
01:26:28 <tswett> De Michigan, en los Estados Unidos.
01:27:18 <tswett> (Which United States? The United Mexican States? No, the United States of America. Which United States of America? The United Mexican States of America? No, the OTHER United States of America.)
01:28:45 <Orianny> como es todo haya donde vives ?
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02:05:00 <oerjan> tswett: let S be an uncountable set with the topology that a subset is open iff its complement is countable. let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. then A is open.
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02:06:08 <oerjan> @tell tswett let S be an uncountable set with the topology that a subset is open iff its complement is countable. let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. then A is open.
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02:20:21 <int-e> @tell tswett You could also take the empty set for A (probably not intended), which is open but does not contain x.
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02:20:45 <oerjan> i noticed that, but come on
02:24:39 <int-e> oerjan: why don't you try to do Kimariji sideways?
02:26:46 <lambdabot> "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
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02:28:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Esowiki201529A * New user account
02:29:48 <int-e> hmm "Esowiki", does that string appear on the site?
02:30:28 <vanila> > 'W' : repeat 'A' ++ "T"
02:30:29 <lambdabot> "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
02:30:33 <int-e> As far as I can see quickly, it seems to say "Esolang" everywhere...
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02:31:10 <int-e> (The question is whether the name "Esowiki201529A" involved any human interaction. It might...)
02:31:34 <oerjan> i was thinking similar thoughts
02:33:25 <oerjan> i find two mentions in talk pages
02:34:17 <int-e> Oh well, I'd wait for the first edit. We're odd people after all :)
02:35:11 <int-e> (And I'm saying that as somebody who's refusing to make a wiki account.)
02:41:43 <int-e> Hmm, let me make up a reason... Because I want to improve the reputation of "IPs".
02:43:42 <vanila> wwhat is the real reason
02:51:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41627 * Esowiki201529A * (+66) Created page with "#REDIRECT [http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1517]"
02:51:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41628&oldid=41627 * Esowiki201529A * (+2) Redirected page to [[Http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1517]]
02:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41629&oldid=41628 * Esowiki201529A * (-12)
02:54:05 <vanila> that isnt a very high quality page :/
02:55:25 <int-e> not the usual spam either.
02:55:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41630&oldid=41629 * Esowiki201529A * (+73)
02:56:26 <vanila> LLL is an esotiric programming with logic circuits.
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02:56:54 <int-e> but LLLL is a set of CA rules?
02:57:28 <oerjan> the forum link looks good though. i wonder if that's lode vandevenne - oh right the new link goes to his site
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02:59:49 <int-e> vanila: oh I missed the typo.
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03:20:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Esowiki201529A * moved [[111]] to [[Binary:111]]
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03:35:21 <vanila> http://lodev.org/ he has 4 esolangs
03:35:58 <int-e> doesn't explain that move...
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03:42:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary:111]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41633&oldid=41631 * Esowiki201529A * (+7) It called "binary:111"
03:51:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[قلب]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41634&oldid=41446 * Esowiki201529A * (+39) This is not english based programming language
03:54:10 <vanila> can you pleaes ban this asshole?
03:54:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41635&oldid=41630 * 213.162.68.166 * (+396) stubify
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04:00:21 <int-e> Oh well. The LLLL edits were bad, but at least not obviously ill-intentioned. But the other three edits... :-(
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04:44:43 <int-e> vanila: you make it sound so urgent
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05:04:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Ehird * moved [[Binary:111]] to [[111]] over redirect: I know what my own language is called
05:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[قلب]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41637&oldid=41634 * Ehird * (-39) Undo revision 41634 by [[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]] ([[User talk:Esowiki201529A|talk]]) non-english languages are perfectly welcome here, and those templates don't even exist
05:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41638 * Ehird * (+344) /* Disruptive edits */ new section
05:08:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[111]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41639&oldid=41636 * Ehird * (-7) Undo revision 41633 by [[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]] ([[User talk:Esowiki201529A|talk]])
05:08:09 <elliott> int-e: thanks, I missed that one
05:08:31 <elliott> it's hard to warn people when I don't understand their actions at all
05:09:57 <int-e> Btw, note that the page as created by Esowiki201529A consisted of two uncommented links.
05:10:56 <elliott> yeah but they're on-topic, so.
05:11:33 <vanila> Its probably just a trick
05:11:35 <elliott> I'd guess they're not actually trying to be actively malicious, so whatever
05:11:52 <vanila> do a pretend contribution to hide your bad action
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05:12:15 <int-e> elliott: anyway, thanks for taking action
05:12:27 <elliott> if they keep doing it I'll block
05:12:41 <elliott> but they're probably just a kid messing around, I think
05:12:42 <glguy> It's not my thing, so do whatever, but the stuff that scrolled by earlier looked more misguided than malicious
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05:15:32 <int-e> glguy: The thing I didn't get was that the LLLL edits looked like they were made by somebody who didn't know what wikis are for (though they read up about mediawiki syntax), but the other three edits were enforcing some imaginary policy. That's inconsistent.
05:16:32 <int-e> But I'm probably thinking about this too much.
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05:18:16 <elliott> I don't think it's worth worrying about too much. it's clear they're not some evil mastermind destroying the wiki with their cunning plan. my experience (and my own behaviour on the internet when I was a kid) suggest that it's just someone overly-eager who wants to be making edits and doing things to the wiki but doesn't really have much in the way of contributions to do that with, and who doesn't entire
05:18:22 <elliott> ly understand the rudeness of randomly changing other people's languages or whatever.
05:18:32 <elliott> it is annoying though but eh, I reverted it all in a few clicks anyway
05:19:31 <zzo38> They must have misunderstood some things
05:20:12 <vanila> they're not some evil mastermind destroying the wiki with their cunning plan <----- How do you know? This could only be the beginning
05:21:07 <elliott> when they assassinate me, invade canada and seize the server running the wiki, that's when to start worrying
05:21:42 <zzo38> Yes, although if they were trying to do that, there would be better ways of doing that.
05:21:58 <elliott> anyway if the wiki can handle NSQX it can handle this :p
05:22:07 <elliott> okay it couldn't handle NSQX. but.
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05:25:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LLLL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41640&oldid=41635 * 213.162.68.166 * (+23) Category:Languages (why do we have a category that encompasses 2/3 of the wiki?)
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05:53:51 <vanila> what programming languages havea regular language syntax
05:54:04 <vanila> just stack and assembly ones?
05:54:15 <zzo38> Now I made up one artifact card with "Graft 0, Unleash, Undying, Echo {0}" abilities.
05:54:52 <zzo38> vanila: I don't know? There probably are others.
05:55:20 <vanila> its rare to have a language which is regular
05:55:25 <vanila> because people like brackets
05:55:57 <zzo38> Yes, although not all programming languages have brackets.
05:56:16 <zzo38> Also, some assemblers use brackets too (for expressions, usually)
05:56:35 <vanila> hopefully they only have a set depth
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06:05:45 <Jafet> Well, you can say that the syntax of commentless brainfuck is [][+-<>,.]*, which is regular
06:07:13 <zzo38> No the brackets have to match
06:07:17 <vanila> im discounting brainfuck
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06:11:39 <int-e> BF with nesting depth 2 should be enough for everybody ;-)
06:15:23 <Jafet> What's the minimum depth for tc
06:18:34 <int-e> Well, 2 is my bet.
06:23:13 <vanila> http://dynamicdev.net/Twit
06:27:15 <Jafet> Oh that's right, /// is regular.
06:29:42 <Jafet> int-e: you may be interested to know that 392629621582222667733213907054116073 is a base {2,3} palindrome
06:31:08 <FireFly> Is it the shortest possible non-single-digit base {2,3} palindrome
06:31:25 <zzo38> I was wondering the same thing; I want to know too
06:31:45 <Jafet> No, but it's larger than those listed http://oeis.org/A060792
06:32:50 <FireFly> "Next term (if it exists) is greater than 3^66." well, that covers the "if it exists" part, at least
06:34:00 <vanila> did you write an efficient program to find it?
06:35:02 <Jafet> That took about a day to find
06:35:08 <int-e> Jafet: hmm, mixed based palindromes are not currently on my agenda, but thanks.
06:35:26 <int-e> (I'm interested, but don't have the time)
06:36:57 <lambdabot> LOWI 090620Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW080 SCT300 M05/M06 Q1032 NOSIG
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06:41:09 <int-e> Jafet: is this the first term greater than 3^66?
06:41:25 <Jafet> Assuming the program is correct, it should be
06:42:27 <vanila> i wwas just wondering what kind of optimizations were used in a search for that type of number
06:43:46 <int-e> vanila: there's this link: http://chesswanks.com/txt/BigDualPalindromes.txt
06:44:58 <Jafet> Yes, except I didn't have enough RAM, so I sorted the lookup table on disk
06:46:09 <int-e> So, hmm. To find N, one needs O(N^(1/4)) time and memory, with possible trade off (M memory and T should work for MT = O(N^(1/2)))
06:46:30 <int-e> provided that M<T, and ignoring logarithmic factors.
06:47:26 * int-e gives up on speling and grammer.
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07:49:47 <Sgeo> Help I think I might like a compiles-to-Javascript language more than a native compiled language that it's mostly copying from
07:51:27 <zzo38> Might it be better to just one but with multiple compiling target backends?
07:51:50 <Sgeo> "PureScript does not provide this rule, so it is necessary to either
07:51:51 <Sgeo> omit the operator: runST do ..."
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07:52:16 <Sgeo> I thought the reason everyone uses $ there in Haskell is because it's necessary. So if it's not necessary in Purescript, that seems like a good thing
07:52:23 <vanila> Sgeo, interactively re-engineer excellent leadership skills objectively evolve functionalized value authoritatively generate extensible web services credibly aggregate parallel deliverables
07:52:50 <Sgeo> zzo38: but I don't care about compiling to Javascript. I do care that this language seems better
07:55:01 <zzo38> Neither do I, but that doesn't affect what makes it better and how to fix it by using multiple compiling target backends so that it doesn't have to be Javascripts.
07:55:51 <vanila> http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html "fungibly" is an enterprise word apparently
07:57:05 <int-e> vanila: Oh yeah? ... You call yourself a pirate?
08:10:36 <b_jonas> 'I made up one artifact card with "Graft 0, Unleash, Undying, Echo {0}" abilities.' -- that sounds like an un-card, because the combination of abilities probably actually make sense but it's quite opaque what they are doing
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08:13:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Maybe, but I like to try making up these kind of things
08:13:54 <zzo38> (Note that the card isn't a creature; it is a non-creature artifact. That doesn't prevent the abilities from working, though.)
08:14:34 <zzo38> Can you see what they are doing?
08:14:37 <b_jonas> Jafet: if you know it's the least such number after 8022581057533823761829436662099 then submit that to the oeis for that entry
08:15:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: not really. I don't see why it has "Graft 0, Unleash" instead of just "Graft 1"
08:15:52 <fizzie> Today's randomly generated spam-filter avoidance block is funnier than usual.
08:15:54 <zzo38> You can choose not to use Unleash, don't you know that?
08:15:55 <fizzie> "Capel did not play football in 2000, while he was competing as a sprinter on the U. Ginty Lush won the toss and batted. Even after 50 years, the surface is still warm to the touch."
08:16:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but why would you do that? the artifact doesn't seem very useful if you don't get a counter on it
08:16:26 <fizzie> That must've been quite a batting.
08:16:46 <zzo38> If it has a counter on it then undying won't work.
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08:17:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: doesn't it work like this: you put it to play with a counter, then graft the counter to a creature that comes into play in your turn, then next turn you don't pay the echo so you get it back with a new counter and repeat
08:18:20 <b_jonas> if for some reason you had no creature come into play in your turn, you do pay the echo cost, so it's not a problem the undying doesn't work.
08:19:23 <zzo38> If you do pay the echo cost, then if you want to get rid of it later you have to do it in a different way because echo only works once.
08:19:59 <b_jonas> oh, you mean you want to sacrifice it to some ability to get it back with undying?
08:20:00 <int-e> so make it an upkeep cost
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08:20:39 <zzo38> int-e: Well, I don't want it like that; it is supposed to be sometimes it is difficult to use.
08:20:47 <b_jonas> mind you, I don't know many things that eat non-creature artifact sacrifices
08:21:28 <zzo38> (Also I just wanted to see what I could do with only keyword abilities)
08:23:14 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems there are a lot of cards that take artifact sacrifices
08:23:23 <zzo38> Yes, including Atog.
08:25:50 <b_jonas> Etherium Astrolabe, Ferrovore, Reshape, Shrapnel Blast.
08:26:20 <b_jonas> Mind you, I'm still not sure I'd use that artifact to sacrifice for these, rather than other artifacts, even if that thing costed only {2}.
08:27:31 <zzo38> This use of these keyword abilities can make it really tricky; there are several things both players can do with such thing. How much do you think it should cost anyways?
08:27:45 <b_jonas> no idea. I can't imagine this artifact really
08:27:58 <b_jonas> you see, there's at least one similar artifact that lets you put +1/+1 counters on creatures:
08:28:06 <b_jonas> and I think it's junk, useless
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08:31:13 <zzo38> Note that with my artifact, either player can do various things with the correct spells such as turning it into a creature to allow it to attack/block with +1/+1 per counter, sacrifice it to renew it, and various other things.
08:31:33 <zzo38> Also, Baton of Courage doesn't put +1/+1 counters on anything.
08:31:48 <b_jonas> sure, but if I want cheap artifacts, there are already lots of good ones that are already creatures
08:32:08 <b_jonas> why wouldn't I play those simple ones rather than any of these complicated non-creature artifacts that require tricks?
08:32:40 <int-e> It should be called "I don't care whether I win, I just want to keep the Judges busy."
08:33:08 <Jafet> I beat... the referee
08:33:11 <int-e> And become part of one of those joke card series.
08:33:13 <zzo38> It doesn't normally require tricks, unless you (or your opponent) is trying to do something tricky, isn't it?
08:33:42 <int-e> For extra fun, just put every keyword ability in the rule book on it.
08:34:05 <b_jonas> and if I want a cheap artifact I can play tricks with, then just take Shuko in the infinite life combo deck (you use it to target Daru Spiritualist or Task Force)
08:34:38 <zzo38> And sometimes, protect you if all artifacts are getting destroyed.
08:35:35 <b_jonas> well, no problem, I don't have to like every card
08:35:48 <zzo38> Yes, that's fine not everyone has to like everything
08:39:01 <b_jonas> maybe I'm prejudiced because any card that mentions +1/+1 counters never turns out to be as good as it seems
08:43:51 <zzo38> And I made up two non-creatures with ninjutsu. (I can guess what happens in such a case although I am not quite 100% sure.)
08:55:10 <Sgeo> 'Putting Elm on Node.js would totally defy it's purpose -- you probably want to use Haskell in that case.'
08:55:15 <Sgeo> :/ what if I prefer Elm
08:55:46 <Sgeo> Although apparently Elm is missing a whole bunch of stuff. Purescript probably isn't, but Purescript seems much less popular, and not as suited for front-end
08:56:11 <Sgeo> So, Javascript can go frontend or backend. Haskell-like languages that compile to Javascript have preferences for frontend vs backen
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09:49:49 <mroman> "Your mom has a hairy ballsack." -- Wikipedia
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10:55:29 <J_Arcane> Minecraft word processor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ULtNYRCbg
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11:17:16 <zzo38> "Enchanted artifact gains aura swap {2U}."
11:19:47 <Jafet> If all these people making redstone computers spent that time on actual computing we'd have a... (I'm trying to think of a computing theory analogue for "cancer cure")
11:27:00 <J_Arcane> Jafet: Apparently that took like two years to develop.
11:27:25 <J_Arcane> In less than that, Guy Steele prototyped a processor that ran Lisp natively...
11:29:41 <int-e> "what did you do today?" "I mined 63 nand gates"...
11:30:12 <Jafet> I wonder if they make all these things by hand
11:30:35 <elliott> they're almost certainly not doing any mining
11:31:32 <Jafet> https://github.com/cemulate/minecraft-hdl
11:31:34 * elliott doesn't see it as appreciably different from something like http://www.homebrewcpu.com/
11:32:47 <b_jonas> beware of people who use fancy latin numbers like "icositetrad" in casual conversatoin
11:33:07 <Jafet> Well, that type of computer actually existed
11:53:06 <boily> b_jellonas. is that 24?
11:54:57 <b_jonas> boily: I'm not sure, I don't want to understand the context
12:01:38 <Taneb> I think that's greek rather than latin
12:05:59 <boily> Δεν μιλάω Λατινικά, non verba graeca.
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12:38:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/HTML Code]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41641 * Esowiki201529A * (+5969) Created page with "<pre> <nowiki><html> <body> <h1>Two variable based language</h1> x: <input id="Var1" type="text" value="0" /> <br /> y: <input id="Var2"..."
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12:40:37 <Jafet> [[Category:Implemented]] imo
12:46:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41642 * Esowiki201529A * (+227) Created page with "==[[Hello, World!]]== This program prints out the words ''Hello World!'': <pre>*++*$++$$++$$++$$++$$+g*g*$-g*$-*+*+*p$+2*2*$+*-*pg*g*$+*+*p*pg*$+*p*g2*2*$-*+*p$-*p*2*2$-g*g*$+..."
12:47:23 <int-e> I wonder whether the missing break between case "d*" and case "*f" is intentional.
12:49:38 <int-e> (of course, it almost certainly isn't. but with esoteric languages, every bug could be a feature.)
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12:51:16 <oren> d* then does v1 = (v2 = v1 / v2) / v1;
12:51:44 <oren> thus v1 = 1 / v2
12:52:10 <oren> and v2 = v1 / v2
12:52:12 <int-e> Yeah, so this line is a bit misleading ;-) : <pre style="width:100px" onclick="Var2.value = Math.floor(Var1.value / Var2.value); Coding.value += 'd*'">y = x / y</pre>
12:52:42 <oren> that is the intended behaviour i think
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12:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41643&oldid=41642 * Esowiki201529A * (+56)
12:59:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calculator fuck/Example]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41644&oldid=41643 * Esowiki201529A * (+0)
13:13:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Test cyclic redirect]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41645 * Esowiki201529A * (+34) Redirected page to [[Test cyclic redirect]]
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14:50:19 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Baton of Courage <-- Bacon of Tourage
15:17:09 <oren> #define unt unsigned int
15:26:52 <int-e> oerjan: it's not worse than some of our puns ;-)
15:27:23 <oren> #define chur unsigned char
15:27:35 <int-e> oerjan: (I'm not sure who is the worse offender. Obviously your puns hurt me more than mine ;-) )
15:29:09 <oren> chur shurt unt lung
15:29:38 <int-e> so is a lungfish signed or unsigned?
15:30:35 <oerjan> i think it's a float hth
15:30:45 <oren> there should be unsigned floats
15:30:48 <int-e> hmm. unsigned floats...
15:31:33 <oren> that way we can use the extra bit for more exopnent
15:33:35 * oerjan is suddenly wondering if the freefall police chief is going to marry his mobility suit
15:33:44 <oren> anyway it would help because then sqrt(duublu x) would always be defined
15:34:00 <oerjan> it suddenly starts looking like a natural development
15:34:47 <oren> similarly double log(duublu)
15:36:39 <oren> actually, there should be a type for nonzero positive reals
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15:40:08 <oerjan> > until ((==0).(/2)) (/2) 1
15:44:10 <Jafet> > logBase 2 5e-324
15:46:12 <oerjan> > until (isInfinite.(*2)) (*2) 1
15:46:35 <oerjan> > logBase 2 $ until (isInfinite.(*2)) (*2) 1
15:47:25 <oren> ieee doubles. not even once
15:48:18 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=5e-324;printf("%llx", d);}
15:48:48 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=5e-324;printf("%llx", *(unsigned long long*)&d);}
15:50:20 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h>\nmain(){double d=1e-323;printf("%llx", *(unsigned long long*)&d);}
15:54:21 <oren> ints are computer science, doubles are software engineering
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16:03:11 <b_jonas> no, that's not true. that's just what the people who don't understand doubles say.
16:04:37 <Jafet> "I met a girl who looked single precision but she turned out to be a long double"
16:08:09 <b_jonas> mroman: do you mean -1 or -Infinity?
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16:11:14 <mroman> can't increment infinity I see
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16:11:54 <Solace> Why would you want to increment that mroman
16:11:55 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (./) Invalid arguments!
16:11:55 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (\/) Stack size error!
16:12:34 <Solace> http://www.math.utah.edu/~pa/math/largeprime.html
16:12:47 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (fc) Invalid arguments!
16:12:51 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:13:02 <mroman> infinity has an integer representation o_O?
16:13:08 <blsqbot> | "179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350
16:13:12 <Solace> It has 17 million digits
16:13:19 <mroman> Infinity only has 309 digits
16:13:44 <mroman> whereas NaN has 310 digits
16:13:46 <blsqbot> | "-26965397022934738615939577861835371004269654684134598591014512173659901370825144469906271598361130403168017081980709003648818465322162493373927114595921118656665184013729822791445332940186914117917962442812750865325722602351369432221086966581124085574502
16:13:47 <oerjan> mroman: it's a side effect of how toInteger is implemented
16:14:20 <Solace> has 17 million digits I meab
16:14:23 <mroman> does that work the other way around?
16:14:31 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:14:40 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:14:44 <blsqbot> | 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055009631327084773224075360211201138798713933576587897688144166224928474306394741243777678934248654852763022196012460941194530829520850057688381506823424628814739131105408272371633505
16:15:27 <Solace> well the largest known prime number is bigger than a googolpleslx
16:16:03 <blsqbot> | {1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 1473
16:16:06 <Solace> 17 million digits so I guess its bigger than infinity
16:16:18 <blsqbot> | [Sh, "\n", 1797693134, "\n", Sh, "\n", 8623159077, "\n", Sh, "\n", 2930519078, "\n", Sh, "\n", 9024733617, "\n", Sh, "\n", 9769789423, "\n", Sh, "\n", 657273430, "\n", Sh, "\n", 811577326, "\n", Sh, "\n", 7580550096, "\n", Sh, "\n", 3132708477, "\n", Sh, "
16:16:21 <blsqbot> | {Sh "\n" 1797693134 "\n" Sh "\n" 8623159077 "\n" Sh "\n" 2930519078 "\n" Sh "\n" 9024733617 "\n" Sh "\n" 9769789423 "\n" Sh "\n" 657273430 "\n" Sh "\n" 811577326 "\n" Sh "\n" 7580550096 "\n" Sh "\n" 3132708477 "\n" Sh "\n" 3224075360 "\n" Sh "\n" 211201138
16:16:24 <blsqbot> | 1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 14739
16:16:28 <elliott> I'm pretty sure the largest known prime is smaller than a googolplex
16:16:35 <blsqbot> | 1797693134 8623159077 2930519078 9024733617 9769789423 657273430 811577326 7580550096 3132708477 3224075360 2112011387 9871393357 6587897688 1441662249 2847430639 4741243777 6789342486 5485276302 2196012460 9411945308 2952085005 7688381506 8234246288 14739
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16:16:46 <elliott> number of digits in the largest known prime: 17,425,170
16:16:52 <elliott> number of digits in a googolplex: 10^100
16:17:06 <mroman> does the number of digits somehow relate to how large it is?
16:17:19 <elliott> mroman: yes, it's called a logarithm :p
16:17:24 <Solace> Its pretty long I guess
16:17:40 <Solace> Can you divide a googolplex by 1 and itself?
16:17:41 <oerjan> Solace: you're missing that 13,466,917 needs to be a superscript, those don't work in irc
16:18:27 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:18:38 <mroman> !blsq 2 13466917?^ShL[
16:18:38 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:18:49 <Solace> A number bigger than googolplex
16:19:34 <blsqbot> | 109234465617278670000000000.0
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:46 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (.*) Invalid arguments!
16:19:57 <blsqbot> | 3082797582150960060825374875267347268164340029730999104571144467050608921920646339600877190335097751414114384294014195868765793932144959853414780122285826738123600051221442167845136851330457269511328374382842132795545699826316386656124236236324783660607200
16:20:11 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}11C!itShL[
16:20:13 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}110C!itShL[
16:20:13 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:20:16 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}15C!itShL[
16:20:16 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
16:20:21 <mroman> !blsq 2 2{J?*?*}13C!itShL[
16:20:32 <mroman> Solace: It's called Burlesque
16:20:34 <Solace> I ain't got time fo' dis
16:20:43 <mroman> the most evolved esolang there is
16:21:22 <mroman> you haven't seen how beautiful fibonacci is in it
16:22:06 <blsqbot> | {1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144}
16:22:46 <mroman> people say he has been admitted to a mental health institution though.
16:23:05 <Jafet> Do they have irc there
16:23:09 <oerjan> Solace: try graham's number hth
16:23:31 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
16:23:43 <mroman> but I actually got released this monday.
16:24:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Romans on the loose | Home Alone 6: The horror of fungot | but often spelled correctly. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
16:24:30 <mroman> (but no: I was there by my own choice so it's not really admitted nor is it released.)
16:24:43 <J_Arcane> I can't believe I thought to run permutations to solve for anagrams before just trying sort ...
16:24:48 <oerjan> the technical term is "kicked out" hth
16:25:10 <mroman> It's more "I decided to leave"
16:25:24 <mroman> because I'm feeling much better now.
16:25:35 <J_Arcane> today is a day for leaving then. Congrats!
16:25:47 * J_Arcane escaped the cult ... I mean Finnish school ...
16:25:51 <Jafet> The burlesque website doesn't talk about "real word problems" as it claims, how disappointing
16:26:05 <mroman> Jafet: I'm sorry but it can't cure depression just yet.
16:26:09 <Solace> is mroman at an institute
16:26:45 <mroman> chronic depression since 6 years
16:27:02 <mroman> which recently turned into a major depression
16:27:08 <J_Arcane> mroman: depression is a rough business. it's part of why I quit the school.
16:27:14 <oerjan> J_Arcane: congrats to you too then
16:27:21 <mroman> Solace: Currently, yes
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16:28:23 <Solace> School is amazing J_Arcane Especially the mass ammounts of anxiety
16:28:40 <Solace> But you can't leave school on a whim in America
16:29:36 <elliott> people drop out of school in america y'know
16:30:48 <J_Arcane> Solace: it was a really screwed up program, and one tailor made to trigger all my neuroses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestopedia
16:30:57 <J_Arcane> also, I'm a college drop out, and not in jail yet. ;)
16:31:42 <Solace> elliott: you cant really in highschool
16:32:22 <elliott> I guess the people I've known who dropped out of high school just don't exist then
16:32:48 <Solace> you need atleast a highschool diploma for many jobs
16:33:04 <Solace> I'm sorry elliott but if I dropped out my family would disown me
16:33:20 <elliott> ok, well, that's quite far from going to jail
16:33:45 <J_Arcane> Solace: ahh, yeah, high school is differentish. until you're 16 or so in most states it is technically illegal, though I don't think they've jailed anyone for it since the 40s.
16:33:50 <Solace> Id probably murder someone so
16:34:14 <elliott> J_Arcane: especially since homeschooling is legal and (afaik) not terribly regulated in practice in the US?
16:34:15 <Solace> I need anti-phsychotics for stuff
16:34:54 <J_Arcane> elliott: It really depends on the state. IT was in theory pretty specific in Oregon, but not well enforced and still pretty flexible.
16:35:20 <Solace> Uh how did this come from burlesque
16:35:26 * elliott dropped out at age ~8-10, but in the UK.
16:35:47 <Solace> elliott: not every one is elliott
16:36:33 <elliott> mroman: btw congratulations on leaving! hope things go well for you
16:36:36 <J_Arcane> elliott: Partly this is because the biggest motivator of homeschooling is religious, science education standards for homeschooling in particular are abominable.
16:37:06 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 4):
16:37:10 <jameseb> elliott: how? I thought it was required to be educated until age 16...or do you mean you were homeschooled?
16:37:58 <elliott> jameseb: it's really not very regulated.
16:38:23 <Solace> J_Arcane: I don't do illegal stuff cuz ye
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16:38:39 <elliott> I might have been de jure down as being homeschooled.
16:38:53 <J_Arcane> MY town in high school was lousy with teenage dropouts, but they were rarely even investigated unless the kid did something illegal.
16:42:02 <Solace> I'm gonna use a mitre saw
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17:39:45 <Taneb> I have FINISHED EXAMS FOR THE WEEK
17:43:28 <b_jonas> Taneb: good. what will you have next week.
17:43:56 <Taneb> None, I just didn't want to say "until I next have exams, probably June"
17:44:07 <Taneb> I recognize in retrospect what I said may have been mildly misleading
17:44:11 <Taneb> For which I apologize
17:44:47 <b_jonas> then it's time to celebrate
17:47:05 <Jafet> > nubBy (<=) [1,2,3,4,2,4,6,3,6,9]
17:47:28 <Taneb> Jafet, nice dropsort implementation
17:48:03 <elliott> Jafet: technically undefined behaviour
17:48:10 <Jafet> (Does this work for any valid implementation of nubBy?)
17:48:15 <elliott> or, well, implementation-defined or whatever
17:48:25 <elliott> you must pass nubBy an equivalence relation
17:48:30 <elliott> so theoretically that could just do whatever
17:48:31 <glguy> "The nubBy function behaves just like nub, except it uses a user-supplied equality predicate instead of the overloaded == function.", That's all the guarantee base offers
17:48:43 <Jafet> Oh, nubBy could apply it backwards
17:48:44 <oerjan> i understand ghc and hugs worked differently on this point
17:48:56 <elliott> Jafet: you could even just use a RULE to turn nubBy (<=) into reverse or whatever
17:49:21 <oerjan> ghc and the haskell 98 reference implementation didn't agree
17:49:34 <Jafet> There was a reference implementation>
17:50:04 <glguy> the GHC implementation only needs to match the reference implementation up to the specification, though
17:50:41 <oerjan> https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/list.html
17:50:55 <oerjan> they removed those from h2010 though
17:51:37 <elliott> they did? https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/haskell2010/haskellch9.html
17:52:06 <oerjan> not for the Prelude, but for the other modules
17:55:57 <oerjan> i wonder if parametricity means it's still safe to use relations that are reflexive/symmetric but not transitive
17:56:25 <oerjan> > nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
17:56:27 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
17:56:53 <Jafet> No, because nubBy can pick an arbitrary "equal" element to compare with the rest of the list
17:57:41 <oerjan> at least those work in both sane implementations
17:58:45 <oerjan> oh actually i think the prime list might work even if you do that
17:59:28 <oerjan> because a multiple still works
17:59:48 <elliott> I guess there's no way to break things with it without breaking stuff that must work
18:00:10 <elliott> oerjan: also it could always try every combination of comparisons on the list
18:00:18 <elliott> and check they're consistent with equivalence relation properties
18:00:33 <elliott> that's the DS9K way, I think
18:00:45 <elliott> since if those tests pass it doesn't matter what element it uses for comparisons etc.
18:00:58 <elliott> except nub has to work with infinite lists I guess?
18:01:10 <elliott> but it could check as it goes.
18:01:25 <Jafet> > let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:01:26 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
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18:03:53 <oerjan> i _think_ nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..] is guaranteed to work for any parametric implementation of nubBy.
18:04:26 <Jafet> > let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:05:02 <Jafet> > take 10 $ let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case filter (x==) xs of _:x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:05:09 <oerjan> no you could break it by being evil enough.
18:05:20 <Jafet> What, are those all primes
18:06:44 <oerjan> you seem to have lost all multiples of 3
18:08:45 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't think that's a legal implementation of nubBy, it will break on infinite lists when there is nothing or just one item matching x
18:10:05 <oerjan> however you could do a bait and switch thing. once you get to 6 you can deduce that it's == to both 2 and 3, and throw away one of them.
18:10:37 <elliott> > let True ==> p = p; _ ==> _ = True; check_symm p xs = [p x y ==> p y x | x <- xs, y <- xs] in check_symm (<=) [1,2,3,4]
18:10:39 <lambdabot> [True,False,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,True,True,False,True,True...
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18:10:45 <elliott> > let True ==> p = p; _ ==> _ = True; check_symm p xs = and [p x y ==> p y x | x <- xs, y <- xs] in check_symm (<=) [1,2,3,4]
18:11:14 <Jafet> But gcd makes it so that you can substitute any multiple of the prime and it still works
18:11:23 <elliott> that + the same for reflexivity and transitivity, then feed the xs's inits into all of those
18:11:35 <oerjan> <elliott> and check they're consistent with equivalence relation properties <-- oh hm right
18:11:35 <elliott> advancing to the next init each time you process an element in nubBy
18:11:46 <elliott> that works for infinite lists, and checks as much as you possibly can
18:12:02 <elliott> of course you can still subvert it by giving a list it just happens to work out on, nothing you can do there given parametricity
18:14:19 <oerjan> well that would mean it _is_ an equivalence relation on the set of list elements.
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18:16:44 <Jafet> > take 8 $ let nubBy (==) (x:xs) = x : nubBy (==) (filter (not . (x'==)) xs) where x' = case drop 2 $ filter (x==) xs of x':_ -> x'; _ -> x in nubBy (((>1).).gcd) [2..]
18:17:16 <Jafet> This is the most robust prime generator ever
18:44:34 <J_Arcane> Racket has a suite of prime-number functions in the standard library. You can just do "(map nth-prime (range n))" ... kinda spoiled Project Euler a bit. ;)
18:44:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think there's a hole in your puzzle specs. "No cards that are in anyone's graveyard and exile have abilities that can be activated from those zones" technically doesn't exclude that the opponent has a Devil's Play in his gy and can kill you right now in your upkeep.
18:49:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: or five copies of Flam Jab
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19:40:58 <zzo38> That's because I made a mistake and wrote "activated" instead of "used"; I fixed it. I don't mean only activated abilities. But let me check those cards and see what it is anyways
19:41:57 <zzo38> There aren't any triggered or static abilities that can be used from there either (possibly other than characteristic defining abilities).
19:47:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: basically, any card with flashback or retrace or unearth
19:47:49 <b_jonas> I guess perhaps some triggered abilities that work form the graveyard could cause trouble too, I don't know if there are any cards like that
19:48:35 <b_jonas> well, there's recover, but that won't matter in this puzzle
19:49:08 <b_jonas> unless you manage to donate a creature or something, btu I don't think that occurs in The Dark
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19:50:10 <b_jonas> I think Hunted Wumpus from Masques is the earliest card with that kind of stuff
19:51:11 <b_jonas> I think the word they use is "function" as in, the ability "functions from the graveyard"
19:51:24 <b_jonas> or "functions in the graveyard"? I dunno
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20:59:39 <shikhin> elliott: I made a script that allowed others to rename me, and... :p
21:00:43 <shikhin> elliott: Not going to get myself into more spamming!
21:00:54 <elliott> trust me I have something better in mind
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21:01:59 <elliott> please. all programming discussion is suspended until I can get shikhin to /nick elliott_ and then ghost them
21:02:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: Nevertheless I fixed it.
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22:15:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41646&oldid=40883 * 99.231.6.121 * (+10)
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22:47:39 <zzo38> If a Magic: the Gathering global enchantment card called Nirvana says "Goblins cannot reach Nirvana", it is meaningless, but what do you think it means to you at least? A few people including myself had varying ideas about what it means.
22:48:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, maybe it means that if that Nirvana is attacking and has flying, then goblins with reach can't block it unless they also have flying
22:49:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is what I thought it meant too.
22:49:31 <shachaf> A global enchantment card attacking?
22:49:44 <zzo38> (Of course it can't attack since it isn't a creature, but it would have to become a creature and gain flying ability.)
22:49:47 <shachaf> That's maybe not impossible but it doesn't seem likely.
22:49:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, it can get turned to a creature
22:50:00 <b_jonas> it's easier than for an aura
22:50:02 <shachaf> It doesn't seem to follow the intent of the card.
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22:51:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: a goblin with reach also doesn't sound like a common occurrance
22:51:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: I realized that too
22:53:15 <b_jonas> but at least it's easier to get one than to get a flying global enchantment
22:53:29 <b_jonas> from an ordinary global enchantment that is
22:54:11 <b_jonas> not one that's printed already as an enchantment creature
22:54:33 <zzo38> Yes, as to make it fly you have to first make it into a creature (even if you can give it flying without making it into a creature, which is even more difficult, it can't attack unless it becomes a creature)
22:55:09 <shachaf> There's a goblin that can have reach without any other cards on the battlefield.
22:55:48 <b_jonas> Do you need three more cards, one to turn Nirvana to an artifact, one to animate it to a creature, and one to make it flying? or can you do it with only two?
22:56:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: duh. you can cast Snare the Skies on anything.
22:56:54 <shachaf> I was trying to be clever with Cairn Wanderer.
22:57:36 <zzo38> shachaf: When doing a search, that's the one I found too, Cairn Wanderer
22:58:53 <b_jonas> who needs fancy rares like Cairn Wanderer? I can just cast Shields of Velis Vel on my Treetop Scout.
23:02:32 <b_jonas> though my favourite way to give creatures reach does require a permanent
23:02:43 <b_jonas> I actually play that card in my elf control deck
23:06:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: so after Cleanse and that puzzle, I was wondering whether an opponent in a similar situation (nothing on his battlefield and hand, you have 5 life) could win starting from drawing just one card
23:08:37 <zzo38> This puzzle doesn't have enough targets for Dust to Dust isn't it?
23:08:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: it does, the circle of protection and some card you have
23:09:26 <Sgeo> Rust 1.0.0 alpha!
23:09:27 <zzo38> Circle of Protection isn't an artifact.
23:09:30 <b_jonas> the problem is that with Dust to Dust, the opponent can still keep two lands, which is enough
23:09:58 <b_jonas> taht card doesn't destroy enchantments?
23:10:27 <b_jonas> this wasn't about Dust to Dust
23:10:31 <zzo38> But you may have meant Cleansing.
23:10:33 <b_jonas> what was taht crazy card that destroyed lands?
23:11:55 <zzo38> And yes they can, in various ways, depending on the situation. For example if you don't have enough cards in your library afterward they will defeat you with Ancestral Recall.
23:12:15 <b_jonas> you probably do have enough cards
23:12:58 <zzo38> Yes, probably, although the stipulation says this is not guaranteed.
23:12:58 <b_jonas> the fun part is that if you had only 4 life, Pact of the Titan would be enough for them to win
23:14:57 <zzo38> Actually with that and Lightning Bolt, they can still win if the first card they picked up is Ancestral Recall targeting themself instead of you.
23:15:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: but they can't pay for the Ancestral Recall
23:15:32 <b_jonas> that's why I'm asking for the hypothetical situation when they hae no lands
23:15:44 <b_jonas> Cleansing isn't enough, because it lets them keep two lands, which is enough for them to win
23:15:44 <zzo38> O, I thought they had two?
23:15:55 <b_jonas> yes, with Cleansing they keep two lands, for six mana
23:16:28 <b_jonas> so they can play Ideas Unbound, draw a Mountain, a Lava Axe, and a third card they discard to the Lava Axe
23:16:34 <b_jonas> they win even without the Mana Flare
23:16:46 <b_jonas> so this isn't part of the puzzle,
23:17:18 <b_jonas> I'm just wondering if it's possible for them to win if they have no permanents at all and no card in hand at the start of their turn
23:17:59 <b_jonas> you could assume you still have Concordant Crossroads and two Mana Flare if that makes it easier
23:19:45 <b_jonas> and assume your Leviathan is tapped or dead or something
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