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00:09:29 <AndoDaan> Does cluid still join the chat sometimes?
00:10:36 <boily> @ask cluid do you still come to #esoteric?
00:11:21 <AndoDaan> I never think of lambdabot, sorry lb. Thanks, boily.
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00:14:36 <boily> you have to understand the bots, connect with them, feel them. and then there are the Joy of fungot.
00:14:36 <fungot> boily: that sign is like, evil.'
00:14:43 <boily> fungot: no it ain't.
00:14:44 <fungot> boily: but provide their programs for free. in sdl wouldn't you have to restrict the quantity of os resources allocated ( fds, for example
00:14:56 <boily> fungot: no, it again ain't.
00:14:57 <fungot> boily: the only thing i do in mycology to load fingerprints for fnord it
00:15:11 <boily> mycological fingerprinting. interesting...
00:15:35 <AndoDaan> how do google a word with a bot again?
00:15:54 <AndoDaan> Or get the definition, I mean.
00:16:03 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Sending HTTP request. \ HTTP request sent; waiting for response. \ Alert!: Unexpected network read error; connection aborted. \ Can't Access `http://google.com/search?q=define:%6d%79%63%6f%6c%6f%67%79' \ Alert!: Unable to access document. \ \
00:16:25 <boily> well, there was that one. it haven't been working for a loooong time.
00:17:12 <FireFly> For some definition of "get the definition"
00:17:29 <oren> mycology: the study of mushrooms and other funguses
00:17:43 <oren> i used a physical dictionary
00:19:06 <boily> there was also metasepia's ~duck...
00:19:08 <oren> it's true. i used the oxford pocket school dictionary,
00:21:58 <oren> i am an avid user of physical books
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00:22:25 <boily> oren: what is your opinion on new book smell?
00:23:25 <oren> it is delicious
00:30:00 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycology
00:30:00 <lambdabot> Title: Mycology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:30:19 <lambdabot> *** "mycology" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:30:19 <lambdabot> n 1: the branch of botany that studies fungi and fungus-caused
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00:54:35 <J_Arcane> https://ello.co/jarcane/post/NBUlE6Uez8fAaamoHryjRg
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02:00:24 <Taneb> I seem to have ended up in a Haskell meetup group
02:00:43 <oerjan> "it was inevitable, really"
02:01:10 <Taneb> It's not yet much of a group
02:01:16 <Taneb> Seeing as I am the second member
02:01:49 <oerjan> you need to work on your identity hth
02:02:31 <boily> Tanelle. weren't you the one who mistakenly participated to some fetishist group some time ago?
02:02:42 <HackEgo> 372) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills \ 1124) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
02:02:59 <Taneb> boily, that is a thing that happened, yes
02:03:08 <Taneb> I'm never going to live it down, either, am I?
02:03:32 <oerjan> it will be something to tell your grandchildren hth
02:03:42 <Taneb> oerjan, you're in easy travel distance of York, right?
02:04:00 <oerjan> that may be overstating it
02:04:09 <Taneb> Hey, the vikings managed it
02:04:25 <Taneb> And run a pizza takeaway down the road from here!
02:04:54 <Taneb> I presume all vikings came from your part of Norway
02:05:20 <oerjan> well it was a major population center
02:05:36 <oerjan> so not as wrong as it _could_ be
02:06:06 <boily> there's a pizza place near home. I should go there some day. they seem to have quite the hot sauce selection.
02:06:50 <Taneb> That sounds a lot better than Vikings'
02:07:00 <Taneb> Which really caters to the drunk student market
02:08:15 <oerjan> Taneb: do they have a logo with horned helmets, that's the way you know they're _really_ bad
02:08:50 <oerjan> stupid wagner-esque posers
02:09:22 <Taneb> http://www.vikingspizza.co.uk/
02:09:45 <Taneb> Oooh they have a variety of delicious cakes
02:10:30 <Taneb> Looking at the menu, a variety of precisely two delicious cakes
02:12:43 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(grammatical_number)
02:17:06 <Taneb> Well, goodnight I guess
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02:49:48 <quintopia> vikings with horns are better than real vikings.
02:50:33 * oerjan hits quintopia with the saucepan ===\__/
02:50:41 <oerjan> IT'S BETTER THAN AN AXE
02:52:50 <oerjan> at least in norwegian climate
02:53:44 <oerjan> actually the wind may have eased
02:54:07 <oerjan> we appear to be out of weather
02:56:09 <quintopia> well you have a better chance of knowing than I, on account of proximity
02:57:03 <oerjan> sadly i do not have a thermometer
02:57:40 <oerjan> for the weather, anyway. i'm not sure where my fever thermometer went during the move.
02:58:24 <oerjan> this website claims -5 degrees celsius
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04:01:20 <zzo38> I have idea I could add other kind of Auras that are combined with other types too, in Magic: the Gathering cards.
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04:56:26 <cluid> how do I get a random User: page?
05:02:58 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=&editsOnly=1&limit=50 has too many spammers in t
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05:13:25 <cluid> can I do my own SQL query on the site?
05:13:35 <cluid> I want to find users who have a user page and created at least 2 pages
05:20:21 <cluid> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:BCompton nice batleships in befunge
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05:35:57 <zzo38> I don't think so, unless you download it and then convert it into SQL or to use a virtual table
05:36:09 <cluid> darn, thanks anyway
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06:32:57 <Sgeo> Superputin is a comic that exists.
06:52:18 <zzo38> I invented a "remote virtual table protocol" in order to implement SQLite virtual tables on an internet server.
06:53:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately I have not written an implementation of either the server or the client though.
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07:46:34 <int-e> mitchs: thanks for all the help on anagol btw (you're finding all those easy problems that I'm submitting Haskell solutions for)
07:47:38 <mitchs> glad to see henkma getting a bit of comeuppance
07:47:56 <int-e> I'm really surprised about http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Stagger+Encode+FIXED
07:49:31 <int-e> (Mainly because I don't think I did anything special. But the identical statistics are a nice touch.)
07:51:02 <int-e> But of course there are a number of problems that I've tried but where henkma still beats me. I'm evil and not submitting those.
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09:32:22 <Solace> dissapears into the elemental demiplane of Ranch Dressing
09:48:42 <Taneb> Oooh, I saw 2 magpies this morning
09:50:57 <Sgeo> Rust currently has an easter egg that bloats output size
09:54:53 <int-e> @google rust easter egg
09:54:54 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTSaNbUgqlo
09:55:01 <int-e> I think that's the wrong one...
10:00:08 <Taneb> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/13871
10:06:06 <lambdabot> PArse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
10:06:12 <lambdabot> Can't combine named fields with locally-quantified type variables or context
10:06:20 <lambdabot> scavenge_stack: weird activation record found on stack
10:06:34 <int-e> Hmm, I was hoping for a more snarky one (ghc has a couple)
10:06:51 <int-e> (no lengthy quotes though)
10:07:38 <lambdabot> ghc says: Qualified name in function definition
10:07:48 <lambdabot> ghc says: Use -fcontext-stack20 to increase stack size to (e.g.) 20
10:08:09 <Jafet> @quote ghc cunning
10:08:09 <lambdabot> ghc says: even with cunning newtype deriving the newtype is recursive
10:08:35 <Jafet> @quote ghc interest
10:08:35 <lambdabot> ghc says: Interesting! A join var that isn't let-no-escaped
10:09:17 <lambdabot> ghc says: Kinds don't match in type application
10:09:23 <lambdabot> ghc says: Urk! Inventing strangely-kinded void TyCon: :t{tc a5gUj} (* -> *) -> * -> *
10:10:07 <lambdabot> ghc says: Interesting! A join var that isn't let-no-escaped
10:10:10 <lambdabot> ghc says: Urk! Inventing strangely-kinded void TyCon: ZCt{tc a2AN} (* -> *) -> * -> *
10:10:13 <lambdabot> ghc says: yi-static: internal error: TSO object entered!
10:10:19 <lambdabot> ghc says: ARGH! Jump uses %esi or %edi with -monly-2-regs
10:10:28 <zzo38> When making up the "proper" rules of Aberration Hater Card Game I want to design it properly by writing the rules as a literate computer program, rather than doing what Magic: the Gathering and other similar card games do, which results in some mistakes.
10:11:10 <Jafet> Will you use an existing language, or create a new language for describing card effects?
10:11:54 <zzo38> I believe it may be necessary to make up a new one. I am not completely sure, but it seems like it would help.
10:13:16 <b_jonas> you could use an existing language with some domain-specific library you write
10:13:36 <b_jonas> and lots of restrictions on what the card and rules part of the program is allowed to do
10:13:54 <b_jonas> but, well, if you write it, you decide on what's the most convenient for you
10:17:48 <zzo38> Making up new cards with new effects should not generally require changing the program for the game rules. There needs to be triggers too, as well as replacement effects supported, etc.
10:20:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, that's the theory. for most cards like Kin-Tree Warden it's certainly true. but experience seems to show that every set has a dozen of cards or some mechanics that do require changing the base rules to support them.
10:22:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, although sometimes it is only adding keyword abilities.
10:22:22 <zzo38> Can you give examples?
10:27:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: in some sets maybe. but I think if you never have to modify the core rules (in compatible ways that don't affect games with only old cards) then you're probably not doing innovative sets enough
10:28:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: Very often, new cards require you to track state or triggers that you didn't have to track before, which I think usually requires you to modify the core implementation.
10:28:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: Also, often there are new kinds of static effects affecting things that couldn't be changed so far, so you have to add new checks in existing routines.
10:34:51 <b_jonas> Magic has some crazy interactions. There are like five cards plus the commander rules that make lands produce colorless mana instead of some color, while keeping any restrictions on spending that mana. And then there's Celestial Dawn which makes you spend mana as if it was a different color, while still keeping its other restrictions.
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10:43:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: But then, maybe the game you're making is very different from M:tG. I can't tell because I'm not familiar with other collectible card games.
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10:46:10 <zzo38> I am talking about designing the programming language so that it can allow you to not have to deal with changing the rules to track new state/triggers/effects in most cases; the compiler would automatically add these checks.
10:46:22 <int-e> 101.1 sounds fun to implement
10:48:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: sounds like difficult, but ok, good luck
10:49:26 <b_jonas> Tell us if you have success.
10:49:32 <zzo38> 101.1 consists of two parts. The first part, I would hope designing the programming language so that you can very easily state such a rule. For the second part (about conceding), it would be part of the host program instead; the rules would only mention it as what is effectively a comment (since it is a literate program, the main text with no corresponding program code).
10:52:16 <int-e> . o O ( "Challenge Death", {U}{U}{U}{U}{U}{U}, Enchantment. If you would lose the game, the game becomes governed by the FIDE Laws of Chess instead. A game of chess is placed under rapid time controls, and the winner of that chess game becomes the winner of the game. In case of a draw, you lose. )
10:52:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: actually, "can concede any time" has to be sort of handled by both the host program and the rules. the rules have to handle how the game state changes in multiplayer when someone concedes (in two-player you don't have to track the game state after conceding anymore). the tournament or floor rules part has to handle conceding so a player can leave any time, and in that case he definitely loses, even if the rules part is buggy and says he doesn't.
10:54:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: Actually, I realized that in a game with more than two players that is necessary.
10:54:34 <b_jonas> int-e: who plays white in chess? it's important because the white player is flavored by chess itself, but the black player is slightly flavored by M:tG because his pieces are more difficult to remove because there's lots of spot removal for non-black like Doom Blade.
10:55:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: the effect 101.1 has on the rules part is that the rules have to support players getting removed _any_ time, even in the middle of crazy effects.
10:55:14 <Jafet> Clearly you play pairs of games until the score becomes uneven
10:55:26 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm, good question.
10:55:41 <b_jonas> And has to support multiple player leaving the game in rapid succession too of course.
10:55:54 <int-e> I pictured the challenger would get the white pieces (but draw disadvantage)
10:56:59 <int-e> b_jonas: all players losing an MtG game is a possible outcome, isn't it?
10:57:07 <b_jonas> int-e: in Casey and Andy webcomics, when Quantum Cop challenged Death, Quantum Cop got white
10:57:14 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. it's called a draw.
10:57:23 <b_jonas> int-e: it can happen even without conceding.
10:57:32 <b_jonas> int-e: it's just that the game is balanced so that it rarely happens,
10:57:42 <b_jonas> because draws make tournaments take more real time
10:58:19 <int-e> b_jonas: yeah. but two players conceding the game simultaneously is also unlikely to happen in practice :)
10:58:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, exactly that, if more than two players. (However, in some formats the game always ends when conceding even if more than two players, for example Two Headed Giant.)
10:58:28 <int-e> b_jonas: so I don't see that as a particular problem.
10:58:28 <b_jonas> int-e: The goal is sort of similar to the problem in football where teams get too defensive and so there are too many draws and tie breakers, which is bad for spectators.
10:58:45 <b_jonas> int-e: however, M:tG has never had that problem seriously I think
10:58:57 <b_jonas> int-e: "unlikely to happen in practice" -- do you know what channel you are?
10:59:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: 2HG doesn't matter, because the rules say if a player concedes his whole team is removed from the game, so it's sort of like single player
10:59:41 <b_jonas> oh right, that's what you said
11:00:13 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm just assuming that one of the players involved is not on this channel but geniunely interested in winning :P
11:01:39 <b_jonas> int-e: in theory, multiple players conceding in quick succession can handle in some kinds of cheating, when the judge hands out game loss for the violation to multiple players who cheat together, but as such multipleyer games don't happen in tournaments it's probably not a common occurrance
11:02:16 <b_jonas> hmm, what happens if someone is excluded from the tournament for cheating during a draft? how can the draft continue?
11:02:18 <zzo38> For writing the cards themself, the same programming language is probably used, but instead of literate programming, natural language programming with user-defined templates, is used. It isn't quite natural language though, because it also includes markup, formatting, explicit code, etc. For example, text in square brackets might be treated as a comment when compiling, but still rendered (although without the brackets).
11:03:16 <b_jonas> also, what happens if someone concedes and leaves the table (for urgent matters like his child is ill) during a draft (without cheating)?
11:04:30 <zzo38> Parentheses might do the same but the parentheses are rendered and the text is italicized in such a case. Perhaps there might be formatting codes with \ to change the rendering, and maybe [+ ... +] or other delimiters might be used to include explicit code which is not rendered at all. For int-e's example, a lot of explicit code would be used, since you would put in all the rules of chess, although the card would just say "chess" so put "chess" in
11:05:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: IMO that chess card is an un-card, so it doesn't need rules support
11:05:58 <b_jonas> (other than an informal FAQ)
11:08:46 <zzo38> Yes you would certainly be right, but still, I am saying how it would be done if you wanted it to be a real card (although of course the user interface would be strange in such a case, not like a normal chess game, if playing by computer with a host program that doesn't have the interface for this card explicitly programmed in).
11:09:56 <zzo38> Of course it isn't a card you would actually make except as a un-card, but it hasn't to do with hypothetical things I am saying.
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11:13:59 <zzo38> To give an example of how this "explicit code" becomes used, int-e's card might be typed as follows: If you would lose the game, [+ ... +] [the game becomes governed by the FIDE Laws of Chess] instead. [...] except that you wouldn't actually type "..." but instead the actual explicit codes and comment texts, respectively.
11:15:30 <b_jonas> the chess pieces are tokens, not cards, right? they're not wished into your game so you don't get to keep them if you chess inside a Saharazad subgame
11:18:20 <zzo38> I would say they are neither; the program inside the [+ ... +] would just provide a list of choices to the player, update its internal variables, and then provide choices to the other player, and so on. You wouldn't actually be able to program in the time controls in this way, so it still is a Un-card. But you could still implement the rules of chess with this!
11:19:13 <zzo38> (Although like I explained earlier, it also wouldn't display the chess board if played on a computer program which implements the "generic" rules.)
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11:40:14 <zzo38> O, one thing too about what I am thinking of, which is that if you add new cards, although you probably won't have to modify the rules, you would have to recomple them.
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12:37:30 <J_Arcane> http://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines.html
12:45:00 <J_Arcane> There are Lovecraft quotes in the Rust standard library: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/blob/master/src/libstd/rt/util.rs
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12:50:15 <int-e> J_Arcane: okay... what is the primary source for the latter information? reddit? you're the second one to bring it up today :P
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13:03:13 <b_jonas> Suppose I activate Deathrite Shaman's first ability to gain mana, keeping priority, then I cast Cytoshape to make that creature a copy of an animated Forest, and then resolve the activated ability. Can I spend the mana it produces to pay part of the mana cost for casting an Imperiosaur?
13:09:09 <J_Arcane> int-e: someone filed an issue about it and it made the front page of HN.
13:09:33 <int-e> b_jonas: This ruling about Cytoshape seems relevant: "This effect can cause the target to stop being a creature. For example, if it becomes a copy of an animated Blinkmoth Nexus, the printed wording will be copied and it will become an unanimated Blinkmoth Nexus."
13:11:18 <int-e> J_Arcane: I see. It's funny because the issue is 7 months old...
13:11:51 <J_Arcane> It's still in too, they kept it, and have rejected at least one pull request to remove it.
13:12:46 <int-e> at least #20035 is not rejected yet.
13:12:47 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, the permanent certainly becomes a basic land
13:13:29 <b_jonas> int-e: my question is what Imperiosaur really checks: whether the permanent was a basic land when I activated the ability, or when the mana actually gets added to my pool (which is when the ability resolves)
13:13:36 <int-e> b_jonas: then I would assume that its mana works for the Imperiosaur. (That's a funny ability though - I didn't know that mana is tracked to its origins.)
13:14:09 <b_jonas> int-e: you could also imagine this backwards but that's even crazier, with an animated basic land first gaining Deathrite Shaman's ability using Kraj, then becoming a copy of something other than a basic land
13:14:14 <int-e> well, ability. it's a restriction...
13:14:18 <b_jonas> which should have the opposit result
13:14:37 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, tracking the mana is exactly what has brought Imperiosaur to my mind:
13:15:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you implement Imperiosaur the first time, do you imagine you could do that without having to modify the core rules program?
13:15:43 <b_jonas> int-e: before Imperiosaur, there were effects that produced mana with restrictions, but those restrictions were given when the mana was _produced_, not when it was consumed
13:16:03 <b_jonas> I think even Alpha has such a restricted mana producer
13:17:08 <int-e> b_jonas: I think I have trouble resolving "that" and "it" in what you wrote initially.
13:18:46 <int-e> b_jonas: but your answer may simply be that mana abilities don't use the stack.
13:21:54 <int-e> I should've seen that sooner, but hey, I have never more than dabbled in MtG (I don't even have cards of my own) and that's been 8 to 5 years ago...
13:22:44 <int-e> obviously I have retained some interest in the rules (because they're crazy...).
13:24:56 <int-e> b_jonas: the other thing is that the mana producer is the Deathrite Shaman, not the land that it's removing from the game.
13:25:42 <int-e> b_jonas: so all in all I don't know what you tried to do there, except that I suspect that it didn't work.
13:26:17 <myname> whoever likes english with a REAL hard german accent watch from 50:00: Cyber Necromancy - Reverse Engineering Dead Proto…: http://youtu.be/fIAKzzlJ67w
13:32:30 <int-e> Zis is vat happens if you organise a congress in Germany...
13:33:02 <myname> well, there ARE german people capable of pronouncing english sentences
13:33:05 <int-e> myname: is it a good talk?
13:34:30 <myname> it's okay, but i thought it would be more technical
13:34:54 <myname> it's just "oh look, we have repeating patterns. turns out, it is xor"
13:35:48 <int-e> b_jonas: Ok, I tried parsing that again, and decided that "that creature" is the Shaman. In which case, the mana ability resolves immediately (since it doesn't go onto the stack) and there's no way to cast Cytoshape in the meantime.
13:36:53 <myname> int-e: also to be fair: english is a HORRIBLE language in regards of pronounciation
13:37:12 <int-e> myname: Oh don't get me started.
13:37:22 <myname> like: tough, tought, though, through; mature, nature
13:37:31 <int-e> For example, I'm *still* upset about "infinite" versus "finite".
13:38:12 <myname> yeah, i had taught in mind
13:38:24 <myname> but finite vs infinite is a nice example
13:39:01 <oren> fainaite infinit
13:40:07 <myname> usually i refered to ghoti, but i do think that finite/infinite is even better
13:40:21 <elliott> ghoti isn't actually a word.
13:40:24 <oren> the solution is sim ple
13:40:44 <elliott> I can make up ridiculous fake things too :p
13:40:55 <oren> write english with chinese characters
13:41:05 <myname> elliott: all it says is that you have no real way of telling how to pronounce stuff you've never heard
13:41:12 <oren> then spelling is based on meaning, and prnounciation can go hang
13:41:15 <myname> you may make good guesses
13:41:27 <elliott> ghoti is like taking a bunch of things out of context and then shoving them together
13:41:43 <elliott> of course devoid of any kind of contextual patterns and specifically picking out odd things you can make something weird.
13:42:05 <elliott> like. it's a funny joke but it doesn't really make much of a point, other than the obvious one that "english pronunciation is not simple and systematic"
13:42:20 <myname> the question is: why is the context capable of making an o sound like an i
13:42:20 <oren> wel wood yoo perfer if ai roht laik dhis?
13:42:29 <myname> that just shouldn't be possible
13:43:16 <olsner> "women" is one place where o sounds like i
13:44:02 <int-e> myname: have you seen http://www.mipmip.org/tidbits/pronunciation.shtml ?
13:44:03 <oren> because spoken language changed and spelling didn't
13:44:56 <elliott> myname: may I recommend lojban?
13:45:32 <oren> enyway, wee kan djust rait laik dhis fruhm nau awn
13:45:43 <myname> elliott: i'd learn either that or esperanto if i'd actually have somewhere to speak it
13:46:14 <oren> japan had a spelling reform in '49 that was successful
13:46:30 <oren> the old spellings were FUBAR
13:48:46 <oren> soree, ai ment: djapan had a speling r'form in '49 dhat was suksesf'l. thee old spelingz wrr foobar
13:49:51 <oren> of course, the fact that 'ee' is pronounced like japanese イ is a whole other problem
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14:02:19 <b_jonas> int-e: no, the ability doesn't resolve immediately, because it's not a mana ability, because it's targetted. that's why I chose Deathrite Shaman in particular, being one of the very few cards having such an ability.
14:03:46 <Jafet> English has ample examples.
14:06:27 <b_jonas> myname: yes, "finite" and "infiniite" is one of those things. there's the similar "sign" and "signal", and there's "cycle" and "bicycle". probably half of these is explained by stress shift.
14:07:11 <myname> cycle and bicycle got me sometimes
14:07:21 <b_jonas> "signal" still has the stress on the first syllable I believe, so stress shift can't explain that
14:07:28 <myname> i was pretty unsure on how to write bicycle as a child
14:07:53 <myname> because i thought "hey, if there were cycle at the end, it would sound like it hat, wouldn't it?"
14:08:42 <b_jonas> myname: I'm unsure how to write many of the words with "y" used as a vowel in them. I have a handy list
14:08:50 <Jafet> Cohammer and bisickle
14:09:24 <b_jonas> no, a bisickle would be a tractor for reaping
14:10:05 <b_jonas> oh, "number" versus all the words start with "numer-" also have crazy pronunciation differences
14:10:38 <b_jonas> and here's my spelling help list of words with "y" as a vowel: hygiene, etymology, mysterious, Odyssey, myopia, carbohydrate
14:11:20 <myname> as a german: they are easy
14:11:56 <myname> the y in all of them sounds more like ü than i
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14:21:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Right, thanks. So there are three times the source might be checked: a) when activating the mana-producing ability b) when resolving said ability c) when actually spending the mana... of those, a) doesn't make much sense to me, but the other two are plausible.
14:23:47 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm, I didn't think of (c) as a possibility
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14:44:41 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Superputin is a comic that exists. <-- i don't think this is surprising to _anyone_ who's vaguely followed news about russia hth
14:45:16 <oerjan> my only questions is whether it's a comic worshiping him or one ridiculing him
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14:54:15 <oerjan> @tell cluid https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RandomInCategory
14:54:37 <oerjan> @tell cluid oops misread
14:56:08 <int-e> oerjan: I survived henkma's attack on Kimariji :)
14:56:12 <oerjan> @tell cluid no random, but https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=2
14:57:05 <oerjan> int-e: i sort of suspected you would since it took him so long to submit
14:57:32 <oerjan> although his statistics are quite different...
14:59:49 <int-e> oerjan: _ isn't counted as a letter, for example
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15:04:41 <int-e> but yeah, I'd have to think about matching henkma's statistics. so much whitespace...
15:06:09 <int-e> ah, that wasn't so hard.
15:06:47 <int-e> I could get up to 40 alphanums, and 7 whitespace.
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15:09:02 <int-e> oerjan: btw, http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Red+Balloon+Locations is a mystery to me. (63 is easy)
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15:10:03 <b_jonas> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Kimariji
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16:03:46 <vanila> can you tell me a bit about Endo ICFP problem?
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16:14:43 <b_jonas> vanila: um, what do you want to know. have you found the link to the blog and task specs of the ICFP contest that year?
16:15:05 <vanila> is there esolangs inside it
16:15:24 <vanila> i just saw that you have to change a picture to get close to a target picture
16:15:33 <vanila> and i guess its generated by some code you edit
16:15:46 <b_jonas> um, the esolangs in it are the Fuun RNA and Fuun DNA, custom-made for that contest. That might count as one or two esoteric languages.
16:15:59 <b_jonas> They're specified right in the task specs.
16:16:05 <vanila> sory if you dont want to talk about it I can stop bugging you
16:16:32 <b_jonas> it depends, have I put link to the contest webpage?
16:17:00 <b_jonas> I don't know much about that task other than what's on the contest blog and task specs, plus a few descriptions I've read by teams participating
16:17:03 <vanila> its in your todo list on wiki user page
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16:17:26 <b_jonas> right, that links to the contest homepage, from which it's easy to find the task spec http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/Endo.pdf
16:17:36 <b_jonas> that should be enough links for a stub
16:20:22 <b_jonas> vanila: basically the DNA is a custom string-substitution based self-modifying language
16:20:53 <vanila> ok it sounds interesting!
16:20:54 <b_jonas> and what the program eventually evolves to is ran as Fuun RNA which is a strange very limited pixel-based drawing language
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16:29:35 <J_Arcane> http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.fi/2015/01/if-scheme-were-like-scheme.html
16:30:51 <elliott> if it is then I once emailed J_Arcane
16:31:28 <J_Arcane> my blog is http://jarcane.github.io/
16:32:43 <int-e> "Floating-point numbers would be called “inexact rationals”. Their constructor would take a numerator and denominator, just like exact rationals" <-- this felt eerily familiar
16:33:18 <elliott> that post hurts because it kind of captures exactly what's sad about scheme
16:33:27 <int-e> > 1.552134e-10 :: Rational
16:34:23 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
16:40:33 <vanila> wow J_Arcane, so Heresy is hitting the bigtime
16:41:04 <int-e> the compiler produces that as a literal, ouch.
16:41:35 <oerjan> int-e: i recall that could crash the compiler once, don't know if they fixed it
16:42:23 <oerjan> oh iirc even if you used it for a Double
16:42:24 <int-e> trying... 1e1000000 :: Rational gobbles up lots of memory...
16:42:31 <oerjan> > 1e100000000 :: Double
16:43:50 <vanila> how do you put a picture into github commits?
16:44:41 <J_Arcane> github has emoji support of a kind.
16:44:54 <J_Arcane> other than that I don't think you can.
16:45:26 <vanila> thanks, I can use emoji in my commits now
16:45:31 <vanila> http://www.emoji-cheat-sheet.com/
16:47:03 <int-e> hehe, I'm preaching that one should have a swap partition so much ... but fail to follow my own advice... one reboot later...
16:47:31 <int-e> (I should've killed ghc when it reached 6GB (of 8GB RAM))
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16:48:51 <int-e> (reason for the swap partition is that one wants to give the kernel a chance to swap out *data* instead of mmap-ed program code when memory becomes exhausted...)
16:51:29 <int-e> there, added some swap.
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16:53:47 <lambdabot> "3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
16:54:10 <lambdabot> "3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
16:54:30 <newsham> try it in privmsg to lambdabot
16:54:32 <int-e> you'll get more digits in /msg
16:54:49 <vanila> J_Arcane, It is also now the most well-recieved project I’ve ever released, netting 18 stars on Github, almost 3,000 vistors to the repo, and a whole day near the top of Hacker News’ front page.
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17:05:36 <vanila> J_Arcane, what do you want to self host it for and what woudl that mean
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17:21:20 <J_Arcane> vanila: well, I'm not necessarily set on actually self-hosting Heresy, but a direct implementation as opposed to existing as a macro layer would give me a lot more control over things.
17:21:53 <J_Arcane> As it stands, the more 'different' something is from how Racket works, the more down the rabbit-hole of obscure macro transformers and other insanity you have to go.
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18:02:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41668&oldid=40672 * Rottytooth * (-184) /* External resources */ removed dead link
18:03:16 <oren> newsham: showcereal
18:05:14 <oren> > showCReal 10 pi
18:05:25 <J_Arcane> i wonder why i seem to see so many esolangs on .net.
18:06:02 <oren> .net the environment or .net the TLD?
18:15:26 <int-e> Well, better than Java.
18:16:14 <oren> Java is C++++ and C# is C++++++
18:16:16 <int-e> (if only because the .net runtime developers could learn from the jvm's developers' mistakes)
18:17:25 <myname> there is this quote "java is in many aspects c++--"
18:17:26 <int-e> And evolution; I mean, when the java bytecode was designed, I don't think anybody expected JIT compilation. If they had I bet the bytecode would look different.
18:17:59 <int-e> .net otoh was designed very much with JIT compilation in mind.
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18:34:43 <pikhq> Yeah, weren't the first few iterations of the JVM bytecode interpreters?
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18:58:07 <olsner> iirc the jvm spec claims the bytecode is designed to be input to a compiler, but maybe the plan was install-time compilation rather than JIT
19:00:20 <J_Arcane> pikhq: yeah, JIT didn't come until HotSpot IIRC.
19:00:31 <J_Arcane> Early Java made Python look like C. :P
19:02:52 <mroman> did python have JIT when Java came out?
19:02:53 <J_Arcane> I am still baffled as to how it gained any serious support at all, and yet somehow it seemed to be an unstoppable force, like some looming inevitable task we'd just have to accept anyway. Java is the dirty catbox of programming languages.
19:03:31 <pikhq> Sun had a god damned impressive marketing effort.
19:04:06 <mroman> I don't know what other OOP languages were popular when Java came out
19:04:20 <mroman> but if C++ was the only good competitor I totally get why Java got so popular
19:04:23 <pikhq> And it came at just the right time, when the common OS was suddenly becoming Microsoft "we don't even support C well" Windows.
19:07:39 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
19:07:49 <J_Arcane> mroman: CPython *still* doesn't have JIT I don't think. It's just that Java was that slow in those days. I think partly why it took off more in business than in consumer applications was that it was unbearably slow on consumer hardware.
19:08:30 <pikhq> And businesses were often coming up from COBOL on mainframes.
19:09:05 <pikhq> In that context it doesn't even matter if it's fast or not -- the programs are really simple, but they ran on stupidly expensive platforms.
19:11:02 <J_Arcane> myname: in the late 90s, OOP was going to save us all.
19:11:27 <myname> they did pretty stupid stuff that time
19:14:30 <MDude> It was also originally an attempt an making AI.
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19:20:27 <mroman> I thought that's what Lisp was for
19:21:32 <MDude> I guess not OOP so much as objects.
19:22:38 <MDude> It's just the first language mentioned in the Wikipedia article on OOP mentions "objects" in computer programming goes back to Lisp.
19:25:18 <TieSoul> it works when it works and doesn't when it doesn't.
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19:25:42 <TieSoul> and by works I mean fits the problem at hand
19:26:05 <oren> OOP is good, but only if you understand that OOP doesn't just mean a programming language that looks like SVO grammar
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19:26:31 <oren> which is what many people seem to think it is
19:27:38 <TieSoul> wait people actually think that?
19:28:11 <int-e> a great many concepts tend to be tied to a particular syntax :/
19:28:55 <TieSoul> like functional programming
19:29:15 <myname> yeah, lambda calculus :p
19:29:25 <oren> some people think functional programming = lisp
19:29:48 <int-e> oren: actually, besides lisp, can you name another language where method invocation doesn't look that way?
19:31:04 <oren> fputs("hello, world\n",f)
19:32:00 <TieSoul> btw, is there object-oriented esolanga?
19:33:00 <myname> what is "a method invocation that looks that way"?
19:33:19 <oren> file.print(string) like that
19:33:34 <oren> obj.method(arg)
19:33:41 <myname> why should it look different?
19:33:42 <TieSoul> you could say racket but that'd be cheating
19:33:58 <oren> as opposed to lisp (method obj args)
19:34:02 <int-e> oren: Ok, I meant a language that claims to support OO (rather than allowing to implement OO because there really isn't much to it, conceptually, just some function pointers...)
19:34:26 <int-e> myname: "that way" = SVO.
19:35:00 <TieSoul> btw I tried implementing a simple scripting language some time ago.
19:35:16 <TieSoul> Here's the results: a weird language that's a cross between Ruby and C-style languages
19:35:16 <int-e> The fact that C puts the FILE* argument last trips me up a lot...
19:35:19 <TieSoul> https://github.com/TieSoul/cotton-lang
19:35:31 <J_Arcane> In Heresy it's either (send obj field ...) or just ((object field) ...) But Heresy is weird.
19:36:01 <TieSoul> but seriously don't use cotton
19:36:25 <TieSoul> but it's an interpreted language interpreted in Ruby. What do you expect
19:36:39 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I was gonna say, that's what I would expect.
19:37:18 <TieSoul> and it has OOP without inheritance
19:38:08 <J_Arcane> Heresy's objects are immutable.
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19:38:26 <J_Arcane> they're basically just structs that can take methods and return copies of themselves.
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19:41:08 <J_Arcane> they don't have proper inheritance either, because they're immutable: you can define Foo with three fields, and you can make a copy of Foo, but it'll always have those same three fields; you can't make Bar that's a Foo with 2 extra fields, for instance.
19:41:39 <J_Arcane> You could however probably expand it easily enough to support that behavior though.
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19:51:50 <oren> i think classes are the bad idea in OO
19:53:00 <oren> instead there should be interfaces,
19:55:10 <oren> and creator functions
19:55:16 <tswett> Sometimes you're only ever going to have one class implementing an interface.
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19:57:56 <oren> classes, as a syntax element, tie together interface and implementation
19:59:51 <oren> also the distinction between members and methods is a bad idea
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20:00:12 <myname> haskell style type classes rock
20:00:25 <oren> C void pointers at least help by disabling public members
20:01:05 <oren> funny how void* is so encapsulated
20:03:53 <oren> it is not used by ANY natural language
20:04:42 <oren> ok, i'm doing that
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20:05:57 <oren> idea: stack-based object-oriented
20:08:25 <b_jonas> yay, I'm copying files to another user with rsync -e "sudo -u"
20:08:47 <elliott> -u" looks like a weird emoticon
20:09:17 <b_jonas> elliott: what, like a horse or something?
20:11:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ,u,"-: not found
20:19:29 <J_Arcane> oren: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/article-objects.html
20:21:12 <Vorpal> fizzie is moving right? Probably explains why I haven't seen him for a few days
20:27:11 <Vorpal> elliott, okay, still takes some time to settle in I guess. He hasn't replied to my lambdabot message to him
20:27:32 <elliott> I mean, he's talked since moving.
20:28:10 <Vorpal> A lot? Or just "Hi, I didn't die during travel"?
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20:41:14 <fizzie> Probably less than usual.
20:42:05 <fizzie> I don't think I'll be out of "travel mode" before we find a permanent place to live.
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20:52:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, so did you see that panorama from over a week ago by now?
20:52:31 <fizzie> I think I saw it before I left, but then we were kind of getting ready to go.
20:53:34 <fizzie> Is it from a bird-watching tower?
20:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, not a bird watching tower though
20:54:34 <Vorpal> As in, not specifically for birds
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20:56:38 <fizzie> There's a similar one back in Otaniemi that's specifically for birds.
20:57:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I also experimented with the photosphere thingy in the Google camera app, haven't uploaded those yet though
20:59:37 <fizzie> I've been thinking of doing that. And I think you can these days also upload (suitable-projection) images into the Photo Sphere web thing.
20:59:47 <fizzie> Gah, Dropbox-uploading makes this connection incredibly laggy.
20:59:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, Photo Sphere web thing?
21:00:31 <Vorpal> Anyway I wasn't too impressed with it
21:01:49 <fizzie> Yeah, I haven't tried the stitching app at all.
21:02:18 <fizzie> But the rest of the thing (the viewer and the "put it on Google Maps" and so on) is usable independently, you can stitch with Hugin and just upload.
21:02:27 <MDude> Oh I'm scrolled up.
21:02:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, the issue is that it doesn't do constant exposure, so if there is a high dynamic range it looks weird
21:02:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh and not good at handling parallax
21:03:04 <MDude> Also, I know ORK is an object-oriented esolang.
21:03:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://www.dropbox.com/l/sl3nqxnT5JBqZLdt0ZsOLu -- here are some birds I photographed alongside the River Thames today. And also one thing that's not strictly speaking a bird.
21:04:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that an amphibious *bus*?
21:05:28 <Vorpal> Also what camera and lens did you use for the birds? I found telelenses made it hard to find the bloody things and not having tele-lenses means you can't see them in the photos
21:06:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a Canon EF-S 55-250mm thing.
21:06:58 <fizzie> Basically their cheapest tele thing.
21:09:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, what the heck is that non-bird?
21:09:23 <Vorpal> Tourist thing I assume
21:09:28 <fizzie> It's exactly what it looks like.
21:09:38 <fizzie> Am amphibious tourist bus kind of thing.
21:09:57 <fizzie> I've seen it drive around the streets, I've seen it in the river, and now I've seen it transition too.
21:09:59 <Vorpal> Why, it will just be like riding a boat, and then riding a car
21:10:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, it just drives up the shore I assume?
21:10:23 <Vorpal> I guess loose sand could be an issue
21:10:40 <fizzie> There's a sloping road thing, I forget what the official name for it is.
21:10:57 <fizzie> Yes, but something more specific.
21:11:09 <fizzie> There was a sign saying what it is, and how it's for commercial use.
21:11:29 <Vorpal> Is that a converted bus, a converted boat or purpose-built?
21:11:54 <Vorpal> Maybe a re-purposed old military thingy?
21:11:57 <fizzie> That I don't know. Also, I don't know what it uses for propulsion when in water mode. Perhaps there's a propeller somewhere in the back.
21:12:24 <fizzie> It also does a very very short loop in the river, I'm guessing it's not terribly practical.
21:12:44 <Vorpal> I don't think amphibious cars are in general.
21:12:47 <fizzie> They have at least two, because I've got photos with both a "Titania" (that one) and a "Miranda".
21:13:22 <fizzie> Oh, and apparently also a "Elizabeth", so at least three.
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21:15:55 <fizzie> Apparently they were banned from driving that thing into the river (rendering it doubly pointless) at some point, but I guess that ban was lifted.
21:15:59 <Vorpal> I started reading up on amphibious vehicles
21:16:09 <Vorpal> I found this strange and wonderful thingy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw-propelled_vehicle
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21:16:55 <Vorpal> I don't know what to say
21:17:45 <fizzie> "With the occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany in World War II, the quixotic Geoffrey Pyke --" oh, Pyke again.
21:18:18 <fizzie> That's the guy with the aircraft carrier made out of ice (Project Habakkuk).
21:20:00 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk
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21:21:33 <fizzie> Re the duck bus, "Each Duck seats up to 30 people and we have a fleet of 9 Ducks",
21:22:35 <Vorpal> That is weird and wonderful
21:23:46 <fizzie> "“You need me on your staff,” the shabbily dressed man [Pyke] explained to Lord Mountbatten, “because I’m a man who thinks.”"
21:38:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amfibiefiets_Amphibious_bicycle.jpg
21:40:06 <fizzie> I've seen a modern thing like that in a bike blog.
21:40:53 <fizzie> Well, not "like that" in that it'd be very similar in execution, only in concept.
21:43:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, this thing is primarily a boat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iguana_29_plage.jpg
21:47:22 <Vorpal> Also this looks silly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_2A4_-_Turm.jpg
21:50:28 <Vorpal> This is pretty strange as well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_tractor
21:50:35 <Vorpal> Though this is perhaps stranger still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_and_Rottingdean_Seashore_Electric_Railway
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22:11:14 <zzo38> What I was thinking about this kind of programming language to write rules of Aberration Hater Card Game, Pokemon Card, Magic: the Gathering, etc I would expect to resemble a kind of strongly-typed Lisp. Most data types, including a few built-in types such as ACTION and EVENT and CONDITION, are extensible by adding more constructors and/or fields; other extensions to the rules are also possible. Duplicate extensions are redundant.
22:12:22 <Vorpal> Duplicate extensions are redundant. <-- that is a redundant statement
22:13:01 <zzo38> I mean specifically that it isn't an error.
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22:23:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Didn't I see that last one in a Agatha Christie thing?
22:24:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, it was the sea tractor, and it's even mentioned on the page.
22:24:22 <fizzie> "The Burgh Island sea tractor also appears as the method of transport between the mainland and the island in Evil Under the Sun (2001 film) TV series of ITV's Agatha Christie's Poirot."
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22:36:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeteufel
22:36:54 <fizzie> Or the linked-to http://web.archive.org/web/20110927182658/http://www.dataphone.se/~ms/ubootw/boats_type-seeteufel.htm since the wiki'ticle is not very good.
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22:57:08 <oerjan> <myname> why not prolog? <-- iiuc, during the first ai era, lisp was the language of choice in the us but prolog was the language of choice in europe
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22:58:58 <lambdabot> Local time for myname is Sun Jan 11 23:58:57 2015
22:59:26 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
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23:03:48 <boily> oerjan: Բարի իրիկուն may help you hth
23:05:10 <oerjan> that looks like a very confusing alphabet, for the same reasons as tengwar...
23:06:26 <boily> it is very confusing, and it's non-featural on top of it.
23:08:03 <oerjan> also, pari irigun gives far less hits than bari irikun
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23:08:39 <oerjan> which one is west and which is east pronunciation again...
23:09:24 <boily> pari irigun is West. GT is stuck on East. htah.
23:09:35 <myname> how come lambdabot knows my time?
23:09:43 <myname> is it just ctcp stuff?
23:09:52 <oerjan> myname: it sends a ctcp time request, i assume
23:09:59 -!- r0nk has joined.
23:10:17 <myname> that's actually useful
23:10:23 <r0nk> hi, is there any log for this channel that I can read?
23:11:06 <oerjan> r0nk: the topic lists two of them hth
23:11:14 <oerjan> (codu has the best formatting)
23:11:23 <boily> r0nk: you can also read the PDF. it has the Most Bestest Formatting.
23:11:26 <myname> that is one strange first question
23:11:46 <oerjan> pretty sure i've seen r0nk here before
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23:11:49 <boily> there is no strange first question.
23:12:04 <HackEgo> r0nk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:12:23 <r0nk> I wrote a debugger, logged onto this shell for the first time in a while, checked my freenode and someone told me that people were
23:12:30 <r0nk> talking about a tool I wrote
23:12:51 <myname> you are the brainfuck debugger guy
23:13:02 <r0nk> best title ever
23:14:29 <oerjan> boily: btw i mean google hits not gt (although gt also suggests that transcription)
23:14:31 <myname> you will feel comfortable here, i guess
23:16:44 <r0nk> I take pride in creating valuable tools for the mastery of brainfuck
23:17:38 <Taneb> What's a film that really pushes the format to the limit, doing things no other format could do
23:17:52 <Taneb> Like House of Leaves did for print and Homestuck did for webcomic-ish things
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23:22:26 <myname> r0nk: now go for befunge
23:23:02 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge
23:23:20 <Tritonio> what graph? what debugger? new one?
23:24:21 <r0nk> yeah I made a debugger, here:
23:25:05 <r0nk> https://github.com/r0nk/ward
23:25:12 <myname> the gif shows pretty stuff
23:25:45 <r0nk> The state machine deal is randomly generated, so thats actually not really how i wanted it to look :O
23:27:31 <r0nk> oooooo befunge looks fun.
23:28:26 <oerjan> fungot: how fun is it?
23:28:26 <fungot> oerjan: it's pain to make it recursive when u can use a function
23:28:39 <oerjan> fungot: i suppose you're right about that.
23:28:39 <fungot> oerjan: my programming languages class? they can't be bothered
23:30:47 <r0nk> oh, so the direction of the movement of the instruction pointer is changeable? sweet.
23:31:04 <boily> myname: sentient style.
23:31:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:32:05 <oerjan> @tell TieSoul <TieSoul> btw, is there object-oriented esolanga? <-- glass and ork come to mind
23:32:28 <myname> ork is a sweet name for a language
23:35:13 <myname> i like that one, i may never write anything in it, though
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23:36:49 <myname> it looks something like what english~ should be
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23:40:25 <oerjan> @tell oren <oren> it is not used by ANY natural language <-- i could have sworn i've read all orders are used somewhere, although maybe it's not interpreted that way nowadays
23:41:45 <myname> r0nk: thinking about it, with you graph drawing abilities you may be better suited for oedermdrome (no serious recommendation, it's kind of an inside joke)
23:42:44 <boily> myname: eo, not oe hth
23:42:57 <oerjan> @tell oren https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warao_language
23:44:56 <myname> why is there no "beware of theoretical computer science" in the relcome?
23:45:05 <myname> i think there should be
23:45:24 <r0nk> I think the welcome should be in brainfuck
23:45:43 <oerjan> myname: there are irc line length limits hth
23:45:59 <oerjan> and the color codes are included in those
23:45:59 <r0nk> I wonder if I could write a version that would fit.
23:46:23 <r0nk> challenge accepted
23:47:06 <myname> r0nk: how'd you make that graph thing? is it ncurses?
23:47:35 <oerjan> r0nk: one of the purposes of the welcome is to hint to certain people that they're in the wrong channel; making it unreadable doesn't help with that
23:48:12 <oerjan> (the "other kind of" part)
23:48:30 <r0nk> yeah, ncurses with a custom line drawing function.
23:48:36 <myname> how often is this really necessary? afair there was one user that was wrong here
23:49:00 <oerjan> myname: people who think this is about the other kind of esoteric...
23:49:09 <myname> i wonder if you could at least draw eodermdrome states with that
23:49:36 <oerjan> although i think the venezuelans are more common, and they get a different message
23:49:41 <myname> oerjan: i would opt for "they will learn it the hard way"
23:49:42 <r0nk> the state machine is actually what I call a folded lattice, where Its read top to bottm,
23:50:07 <r0nk> in terms of control flow, so the main in a c would be on top,
23:50:18 <oerjan> myname: in theory it was also meant to point them to a better place, except that place is basically dead.
23:50:47 <myname> yeah, we had that on another channel some time ago
23:51:29 <myname> we sent all idiots^wmisleaded users to another channel with the result it being closed
23:52:23 <myname> we still send them there, but now they come back
23:52:45 <oerjan> i don't think it was closed because of us, it just never really took off
23:53:05 <pikhq> Presumably there's only momentary demand.
23:53:08 <oerjan> and may have been started by a person who came here first...
23:53:53 <myname> i can't imagine that many people with interest in esoterica that are capable of using an irc client
23:54:14 <oerjan> myname: that's racist!
23:54:31 <myname> are esoteric people a race?
23:55:33 <r0nk> i think i could draw eodermdrome states with it, they'd be modified though.
23:56:12 <oerjan> modified how? the state is just an unlabeled graph.
23:56:40 <oerjan> the labels are only used to describe substitutions.
23:56:59 <r0nk> well yeah, my program draws out the states of any turning machine thing,
23:57:20 <r0nk> (I'm still googling this thing, im halfway though the page so i might be wrong
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23:57:44 <oerjan> r0nk: that misspelling is so common we redefined it as something else
23:57:51 <myname> the interesting part is wether the structure of the graph is visible or not
23:58:58 <myname> damnit, i should go to bed