←2015-01-14 2015-01-15 2015-01-16→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:01:06 <tswett> Every ordinal number has a Cantor normal form, but certain ordinal numbers have non-terminating Cantor normal forms.
00:02:16 <oerjan> tswett: basically you get trouble once you get to something with alpha = omega^alpha
00:02:22 <tswett> Right.
00:02:36 <tswett> Is it possible to have, say, alpha = omega^alpha + 1?
00:02:50 <oerjan> i don't think so
00:03:06 <oerjan> omega^alpha >= alpha seems clear
00:03:26 <tswett> omega^alpha >= alpha isn't obvious to me.
00:03:59 <tswett> But Wikipedia does state something like that.
00:04:08 <oerjan> well it's true for limit ordinals if it's true for those below
00:04:21 <oerjan> because omega^ is continuous by definition
00:04:41 <tswett> Every ordinal number has a "degree" under Cantor normal form. The degree of alpha is less than alpha, unless alpha = omega^alpha.
00:05:03 <oerjan> and omega^(alpha+1) = omega^alpha * omega > omega^alpha, (or so i hope)
00:05:33 <tswett> Okay, so here's our notation so far. If the ordinal number is greater than its own degree, write it in Cantor normal form. Otherwise, it's a fixed point of exponentiation with base omega.
00:05:38 <oerjan> so omega^(alpha+1) > alpha by induction, so >= alpha+1
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00:06:18 <tswett> In which case it's of the form phi_1(beta) for some ordinal number beta.
00:06:40 <tswett> So we can just write it like that, unless it happens that beta = phi_1(beta).
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00:07:04 <oerjan> and then you make phi_alphas
00:07:22 <tswett> But if that's the case, we can just write it as phi_2(gamma) for some ordinal number gamma. Unless it happens that gamma = phi_2(gamma).
00:07:31 <tswett> In which case you can move on to phi_3, then phi_4, and so on.
00:08:04 <oerjan> and this works until you get to the sad state of phi_alpha(alpha) = alpha, or something like that
00:08:21 <tswett> WP says phi_alpha(0) = alpha.
00:08:26 <oerjan> ok
00:08:33 <tswett> At which point we choose to give up.
00:08:48 * oerjan doesn't remember all that stuff
00:09:48 <tswett> So there we go. All ordinals below Gamma_0 can be written in terms of natural numbers, addition, and the phi function.
00:12:03 <oerjan> um is there some phi thing for getting multiplication and exponentiation?
00:12:51 <tswett> e
00:13:01 <tswett> Exponentiation, yeah. phi_0(alpha) = omega^alpha.
00:13:07 <oerjan> good
00:13:28 <oerjan> ah i guess you don't need multiplication because you only multiply by finite numbers
00:13:31 <tswett> Multiplication by a natural number is just repeated addition.
00:13:43 <tswett> And multiplication by an infinite ordinal might be exponentiation.
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00:14:56 <tswett> So it's probably easy to define arithmetic and ordering on these notations, or something.
00:15:01 <oerjan> yeah
00:15:48 <oerjan> you still have the distributive law of multiplication
00:16:08 <oerjan> so you just need to be able to multiply phi terms
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00:17:30 <tswett> Well, every phi term is a fixed point of omega^.
00:17:45 <tswett> So you multiply them by adding them and then omega^ing them.
00:17:49 <oerjan> yep
00:19:26 <tswett> So gee, there definitely seems to be some regularity here.
00:20:16 <oerjan> also sometimes a+b simplifies to b
00:20:19 <tswett> We seem to have a function fixedPoints : (Ord -> Ord) -> Ord -> Ord, which enumerates the fixed points of a function on the ordinal numbers.
00:21:07 <tswett> Obviously, not every function on the ordinal numbers has fixed points.
00:21:39 <oerjan> the "continuous" ones do
00:21:59 <oerjan> continuous increasing
00:23:01 <oerjan> and enumerating fixed points of a continuous increasing function gives another one such iirc
00:23:03 <tswett> And doesn't continuousness have some really simple definition? Like, a function is continuous iff the image of a limit is the limit of the images?
00:23:21 <oerjan> yeah
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00:24:52 <oerjan> where all the limits are usually increasing in practice, which means it's also just supremum
00:24:58 <tswett> Right.
00:25:34 <oerjan> i think it's an ordinary topology except for the part of not being a set...
00:26:16 <tswett> Let V_kappa be a model of ZFC.
00:26:17 <tswett> Continue.
00:28:01 <oerjan> basically, open intervals are open. and non-limit ordinal singletons are open because {alpha} = (alpha-1, alpha+1)
00:28:41 <tswett> Right, it's the order topology.
00:30:33 <tswett> Hm. So, ordinal numbers below epsilon_0 have a certain obvious way to obtain a natural number by substituting a natural number for omega.
00:30:41 <tswett> Just write it in Cantor normal form and then substitute.
00:31:51 <tswett> Can you extend that to the Veblen functions in an obvious way?
00:37:00 <tswett> There's definitely a sort of correspondence between defining large ordinal numbers and just defining large natural numbers.
00:37:19 <tswett> Of course, every natural number, in principle, has a definition.
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00:41:08 <nys> no results for "metacircular microsoft excel interpreter"
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00:47:09 <tswett> I'd like to come up with a theory of arithmetic whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true.
00:47:15 <tswett> But there's a problem with that idea.
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00:47:32 <tswett> Suppose you have a theory T, whose axioms are precisely those statements which are obviously true.
00:47:55 <tswett> T is obviously sound, meaning that T is obviously consistent, meaning that "T is consistent" is an axiom of T.
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00:48:23 <tswett> And so T is inconsistent. Crap.
00:48:48 <tswett> At least, that's the informal paradox.
00:49:34 <oerjan> actually the way around that is simply: T obviously has an infinite number of axioms
00:50:02 <oerjan> thus you cannot formulate "T is consistent" hth
00:50:24 <tswett> Well, you can formulate "T is consistent" if T is definable, right?
00:50:44 <oerjan> now turn this around to a proof that T isn't definable hth
00:51:01 <tswett> Right.
00:51:06 <tswett> Now...
00:51:14 <tswett> What's the smallest ordinal number that isn't arithmetically definable?
00:51:31 <oerjan> wilbur hth
00:53:30 <Taneb> 12 and a quarter
00:53:54 <tswett> 12 and a quarter is the smallest ordinal number x such that x * 4 = 49.
00:54:06 <nys> the ordinality of the set of all microsoft excel programs
00:56:30 <oerjan> <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards!
00:57:01 <oerjan> @tell Jafet <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS. <-- those bastards!
00:57:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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01:16:10 <Lilax> Night o/
01:21:43 <boily> Night?
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01:26:41 <tswett> Here I go, trying to create the perfect programming language again.
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01:29:29 <boily> tswello.
01:30:01 <boily> what is the most important feeling you want to achieve in that programming language?
01:30:45 <lifthrasiir> an inclusion of colon
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01:33:28 <boily> are there collective nouns for punctuation symbols and syntactic features? a décalage of indentations? a surprise of exclamation marks?
01:34:04 <oerjan> i am pretty sure english collective nouns are just a kind of inside joke.
01:35:29 <boily> a weirdness of Norwegians... :P
01:35:38 <oerjan> (mainly because norwegian has no such ridiculous proliferation of specific-to-specific-nouns ones)
01:36:30 <tswett> Ahoily.
01:36:44 <oerjan> we're pretty happy to use "flokk" for almost any kind of bird or mammal
01:37:30 <tswett> I want to be able to write anything clearly and concisely.
01:37:38 <oerjan> insects do get "sverm" instead, i guess.
01:37:54 <tswett> So far, this language looks so wonderful.
01:37:58 <tswett> Here's a sample:
01:38:30 <oerjan> boily: are you implying that french has a similarly ridiculous collection?
01:38:40 <tswett> <module> {{ <inductive> List <:> Set -> Set <by> {{ empty <:> forall A : Set , List A ;; cons <:> forall A : Set , A -> List A -> List A ;; }} ;; }}
01:38:48 <tswett> It'll probably look better in the future.
01:39:00 <tswett> Hopefully.
01:39:14 <tswett> All those <:>s are bound to get obnoxious.
01:39:59 <tswett> So far this language is just Coq with worse syntax.
01:40:23 <boily> oerjan: never heard of any. we have the usual «troupeau», «cheptel» and similar. I'd say there are probably some weird cases, but then they are even more obscure than English ones.
01:40:50 <oerjan> good, good
01:40:57 * oerjan is forgetting to eat again
01:40:59 * boily stumbles upon the <:>es.
01:41:12 * boily had a hamburger.
01:41:36 <boily> (my dad was de passage in Montréal tonight. we had a beer and a hamburger each. it was good.)
01:42:26 <boily> oerjan: ah, there's a «banc de poissons», «horde de caribous», «envolée de castors»...
01:47:33 <Lilax> Quick! Give me a very complicated Algebra equation
01:48:08 <tswett> e^x = x
01:48:28 * Lilax dies
01:50:01 * boily mapoles Lilax
01:50:19 <boily> no dying in this chännel. it is bad form!
01:50:33 <Lilax> This equation is rediculous!
01:51:37 * boily mapoles Lilax again
01:51:46 <boily> no mocking equations' feelings!
01:52:07 <Lilax> 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1
01:53:21 <Lilax> I wonder
01:53:28 <Lilax> > 1/(x-1)+1/(x-2)+1/(x-3)=1/(x-4)-1
01:53:30 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: parse error on input ‘=’
01:53:33 <Lilax> nop
01:53:42 <Lilax> I can't lambda the bot
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01:59:02 <boily> @metar CYUL
01:59:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 150100Z 34005KT 15SM SKC M17/M20 A3029 RMK SLP261
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02:04:07 <Lilax> I want to talk about Dark matter , Strange matter and other stuff at school but no one knows what I'm talking about
02:06:00 <oerjan> Lilax: the joke is that e^x = x has no solutions hth
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02:06:24 * oerjan now wonders about complex numbers
02:06:28 <Lilax> I know
02:08:38 <Lilax> Lets solve for x
02:08:45 <Lilax> Of that equation
02:09:15 <oerjan> tricky
02:11:17 <Lilax> I'm trying
02:11:24 * Lilax overheats
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02:16:14 <oerjan> a+ib=e^a*cos(b) + i*e^a*sin(b)
02:16:57 <oerjan> a/e^a = cos(b), b/e^a = sin(b)
02:18:13 <tswett> oerjan: dude, don't you know that one theorem?
02:18:27 <tswett> The function f(x) = e^x - x takes on every value except for at most one.
02:18:28 <oerjan> i may have known it at one time
02:18:36 <oerjan> well that yes
02:18:51 <tswett> You just have to show that the excluded value isn't 0.
02:18:53 <oerjan> problem is, 0 could still be that one
02:19:03 <oerjan> or there could be _no_ excluded value
02:19:14 <tswett> Of course, if there's no excluded value, then there's a root.
02:19:56 <tswett> I guess I have no idea how to show that the excluded value isn't 0.
02:20:01 <Lilax> So is there really no answer?
02:20:10 <tswett> e^x - x has exactly two roots, if I remember right.
02:20:20 <oerjan> Lilax: there is no answer for real numbers, because e^x > x always
02:20:31 <Lilax> x^e = e
02:20:35 <Lilax> euh
02:20:40 <oerjan> tswett: well they would have to be in pairs
02:20:47 <tswett> Right. Complex conjugates.
02:21:03 <oerjan> Lilax: e isn't a variable, it's the number 2.718281828...
02:21:09 <tswett> x^e = e means x is the eth root of e.
02:22:15 <oerjan> oh hum
02:22:31 <oerjan> er no
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02:22:57 <Lilax> Yes the e is a number variable in that sense
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02:23:06 <oerjan> > exp(exp(-1)) -- that one is easily solved anyway
02:23:08 <lambdabot> 1.444667861009766
02:23:15 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/kP3Wn2W.png This is what happens when you leave me in charge of mandelbrot generating :(
02:23:35 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: THE FOOLS
02:23:39 <oerjan> SHOW THEM ALL
02:23:54 * oerjan should check if girl genius has updated
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02:25:50 <oerjan> oh still another paper doll
02:30:30 <Lilax> Paper doll?
02:30:48 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php
02:33:11 <oerjan> they're doing an intermission between volumes with paper dolls of several characters, which is a little annoying since the last volume ended on a cliffhanger
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02:34:44 <lifthrasiir> reminds me of Kisekae set system.
02:35:33 <Lilax> omg cats
02:36:16 <oerjan> well there's only one cat character, but he's getting all of today's page
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02:44:42 <CrazyM4n> http://i.imgur.com/puFdPvr.png some fractal geek would probably be able to tell me what happened :P
02:45:27 <GeekDude> hmm
02:45:43 <GeekDude> Well, geek is my name
02:45:59 <GeekDude> What happened there is called rasterization
02:48:46 <oerjan> i don't think he's referring to that, GeekDude
02:49:14 <GeekDude> well he did summon geek
02:50:20 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: showing your code might have better odds hth
02:50:32 <oerjan> (i do know what the formula for mandelbrot _should_ be)
02:50:34 <CrazyM4n> https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/5f1f962a39486f3e2baa
02:50:42 <CrazyM4n> ignore the defines
02:50:52 <CrazyM4n> they are irrelevant lol
02:50:58 <oerjan> argh C++
02:51:08 <CrazyM4n> it's gross I know
02:51:51 <CrazyM4n> I can't, for the life of me, figure out the problem. it should work, but it just *doesn't*
02:52:09 <CrazyM4n> I guess it's still really cool tho so I'm not too mad
02:53:13 <GeekDude> >=2? isn't the standard >4?
02:53:51 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: the last thisComplex in thisComplex = lastComplex * lastComplex + thisComplex; should be the _starting_ thisComplex hth
02:54:07 <CrazyM4n> oh damn you're right
02:54:40 <CrazyM4n> so this is like a mandelbrot fractal with an evolving seed. coooool
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02:55:44 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: that's like the fibonacci of mandelbrots :P
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02:57:06 <oerjan> GeekDude: it's real^2 + imaginary^2 >4, but abs also takes square root
02:57:36 <oerjan> which btw is a little inefficient
02:57:57 <GeekDude> a^2 + b^2 == c^2, and sqrt(4) is 2, so...
02:58:02 <GeekDude> it checks out
02:58:18 <GeekDude> and I have some optimizations to make to my assembly ¬_¬
02:58:44 <oerjan> wait, because of this?
02:59:13 <CrazyM4n> woohoo it works now
02:59:18 <CrazyM4n> thanks oerjan :D
02:59:18 <oerjan> yay!
02:59:23 <GeekDude> oerjan: I wrote a mandelbrot renderer in assembly
02:59:35 <CrazyM4n> now I have a darn off-by-one error to fix somewhere
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04:16:29 <GeekDude> oerjan: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png (Not my assembly version)
04:16:46 <GeekDude> That was a mandelbrot render where I redid one of the constants (I forget which)
04:17:11 <GeekDude> Reminds me vaguely of some kind of animal
04:18:49 <oerjan> the red fuzzy two-headed toad
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04:26:32 <Lilax> wot
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04:43:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41683&oldid=41682 * Oerjan * (-17) /* External resources */ Wayback
04:49:56 <oerjan> i _could_ add the modern avida homepage which is in a completely different place; this won't help with the fact that the esolang's own specification is absent.
04:51:11 <oerjan> (and the link that once was there hasn't been preserved on wayback)
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04:53:14 <Lilax> Mmm XML parsing documents were an absolute waste of my day
05:04:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41684&oldid=41683 * Oerjan * (+335) explain sorry state; although found something in the old forum
05:07:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41685&oldid=41684 * Oerjan * (+20) Some tense changes seem in order
05:15:04 <Lilax> gnight
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05:33:12 <CrazyM4n> Yaay off by one errors
05:33:40 <CrazyM4n> My program is really picky about when it wants to offset everything by one
05:33:46 <CrazyM4n> It depends on what input you use
05:34:08 <CrazyM4n> If it's not in the perfect range it spits in your face
05:35:26 <oerjan> is this the same program from the gist?
05:35:59 <CrazyM4n> I've fixed it up a ton but yeah
05:38:26 <oerjan> hm wild guess could it be that floating point errors cause it to sometimes get slightly < xRight and sometimes slightly > xRight, or similar for y?
05:38:53 <oerjan> such that it is unpredictable whether it includes ~ xRight or not
05:39:24 <CrazyM4n> See, that's what I thought originally
05:39:30 <CrazyM4n> But changing it to <= doesn't help
05:39:48 <CrazyM4n> And this is nowhere near the range that I should start having floating point errors on doubles
05:39:50 <oerjan> um it wouldn't help if you were right either
05:40:05 <CrazyM4n> ?
05:40:24 <oerjan> or well hm
05:40:37 <oerjan> how do the off-by-one errors manifest?
05:40:53 <CrazyM4n> https://gist.github.com/CrazyM4n/3e8214a45d89f89f79b1 This is what I have right now
05:41:11 <CrazyM4n> And what happens is that occasionally it'll just generate one too little pixel per row
05:41:19 <CrazyM4n> And in turn it skews the whole image
05:42:11 <oerjan> well that could be explained by floating point error as i said. and <= wouldn't help.
05:42:39 <oerjan> unless xStep is a power of 2, you _will_ get some errors.
05:42:49 <CrazyM4n> If it was floating point error, it wouldn't be so reliably wrong though, would it?
05:43:03 <oerjan> well it would be realiable per image...
05:43:08 <CrazyM4n> As in, it when it's skewed, no rows have the occasional correct pixel
05:43:11 <CrazyM4n> *pixel count
05:43:33 <oerjan> no, that's as expected, because in each row the x variables are exactly the same
05:44:19 <oerjan> it's not a non-deterministic error
05:44:35 <CrazyM4n> Oh, I see what you're saying
05:44:44 <CrazyM4n> I get it now
05:44:47 <oerjan> it depends only on the relationship of xLeft, xRight and xStep
05:45:28 <CrazyM4n> That's quite a problem
05:45:38 <GeekDude> CrazyM4n: http://i.imgur.com/RY9wjd2.png
05:45:43 <GeekDude> Goodnight
05:45:51 <oerjan> i suggest perhaps using an integer counter and multiplying instead
05:45:54 <GeekDude> Also, that was a mandelbrot render gone awry ;)
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05:46:08 <oerjan> or at least using an integer counter to test for stopping
05:46:35 <CrazyM4n> oerjan: I could also go the cheap way, and just introduce the same floating point error in the xPixels
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05:47:15 <oerjan> CrazyM4n: oh actually you could use the ugly trick haskell uses for floating Enums
05:47:39 <oerjan> real < xRight + xStep / 2
05:48:00 <oerjan> it is precisely for preventing this sort of thing
05:48:27 <CrazyM4n> That's terribly ugly. Disgusting, even!
05:48:33 <CrazyM4n> (I'm using it.)
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05:50:19 <CrazyM4n> Aaaand still broken. This time it's generating an extra pixel though.
05:50:26 <oerjan> bah
05:50:33 <CrazyM4n> lol
05:50:40 <oerjan> change + to - :P
05:51:17 <oerjan> haskell ranges are meant to be inclusive
05:51:21 <CrazyM4n> I don't get how that'd work but whatever, I'm trying it anyway
05:51:49 <CrazyM4n> Oh... wow
05:52:11 <CrazyM4n> It worked perfectly
05:52:16 <oerjan> yay
05:52:29 <CrazyM4n> That was such an elegantly lazy solution I'm honestly kind of taken aback
05:54:21 <CrazyM4n> I'm going to go to sleep, thanks for that though :P
05:54:28 <oerjan> you're welcome :)
05:54:59 <CrazyM4n> Gnight
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06:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41686&oldid=35584 * DDR * (+207) Added note about ComeFrom 2.
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06:57:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41687 * DDR * (+1524) Added a very brief page on CFL2.
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07:30:29 <int-e> Oh I forgot about Krosp... will there be a real comic this week?
07:31:49 <oerjan> well krosp _was_ the last character to have a role in the play
07:32:36 <oerjan> oh hm
07:32:43 <oerjan> the stepmother
07:33:10 <oerjan> (played by gkika i think)
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07:33:39 <int-e> nah, she was done before the daughters
07:34:27 <int-e> wait no
07:35:13 * int-e is confused about the number of characters now.
07:37:54 <int-e> you're right, of course.
07:38:46 <int-e> and how could I forget the quilting bees
07:38:50 <oerjan> heh
07:42:35 <oerjan> i think she's the only major character left
07:43:26 <oerjan> unless they're going to do clanks and servants
07:44:19 <int-e> I hope not
07:44:30 <int-e> we might not see a new story arc till next year...
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07:45:12 <oerjan> fiendish
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09:15:30 <zzo38> I have several ideas about programming language to make up rule of Magic: the Gathering and other stuff, which now I think can be called RULECARD. You can tell me if it look OK to you, if you have other idea about it, etc. One thing would be: You do not need to declare a string to add it to a pool; it is added automatically if used where a string belonging to that pool is expected, but the pool itself must still be declared.
09:17:52 <zzo38> When defining a data type, you can declare it as final. If declared as final, all declarations of that type must be equivalent; otherwise they don't have to be and all are put together, however in such a case none of the declarations of the type are allowed to be final. String pools are never final, the integer type is always final, and some but not all built-in types are final.
09:19:20 <zzo38> Host types should also always be final.
09:20:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I've wondered about such a language before.
09:20:35 <shachaf> It's hard to figure out what you mean without some context about yoru idea for the language.
09:21:47 <zzo38> Host types would be definable using host macros, and are opaque to everything else in the program. Host macros can be defined in an external file, and are not considered a part of the rules of the game, and are only needed to implement the game on a computer. If you are playing the game without a computer, host macros are unimportant and are not needed.
09:24:26 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, I don't have a lot of context really, but I would think it would resemble a kind of strongly typed Lisp.
09:28:18 <myname> http://darksky.slac.stanford.edu/simulations/ds14_a/ wat
09:29:44 <zzo38> shachaf: What things are you saying is hard exactly, what question you have, I can try to answer it more specifically?
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09:41:13 <Jafet> 31TB? Must be heavily compressed
09:41:32 <APic> Hi
09:41:53 <APic> Is there already a C-to-Brainfuck-Compiler out there?
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09:42:19 <APic> (/g 58
09:42:21 <APic> ww
09:42:33 <Jafet> c2bf compiles a little bit of C.
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09:45:57 <APic> Ok, so probably it would be worth writing an LLVM-Backend like Emscriptem
09:46:09 <APic> I will add that to my .plan
09:46:28 <APic> (Could take some Months/Years until i get to it, but hey… better than no Plan ;-))
09:46:35 * APic structured Procrastinator
09:57:44 <elliott> ais523 had a gcc backend for it
09:57:51 <elliott> `relcome APic
09:58:04 <HackEgo> APic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:01:11 <zzo38> I have heard that LLVM doesn't optimize brainfuck codes particularly well because it wasn't designed to do so. Additional optimizers might be written though, that would allow codes compiled from brainfuck to work better, possibly.
10:03:37 <vanila> hthere was a good blog post about brainfuck optimization
10:03:46 <vanila> their idea was to add new bytecode instrucitons to handle optimizations
10:04:06 <vanila> I think that's a good start, then trying to go higher level by doing analysis of the code
10:09:27 <APic> elliott: Thanks
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10:55:24 <zzo38> How to make the program to optimize a .XM music file by combining, splitting, rearranging, and changing patterns in the file?
10:59:30 <zzo38> First it should unroll all loops and put all rows into one large list, with a song repeat point somewhere inside of the list, and then what next?
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11:43:36 <Melvar> I wonder if it’s a thing to create a pipe and then forkexec with an arg that points the program at the relevant pipe fd to grab its output, when that must stay independent of stdout and stderr.
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11:48:32 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes, that is a thing
11:48:46 <b_jonas> Melvar: you can use either a filename or a file descriptor name
11:49:22 <b_jonas> Melvar: just make sure to keep your close-on-exec flags straight and close unnecessary handles in the parent process, or else you'll leak file descriptors which can cause undesirable side effects like missing EOFs or worse
11:49:37 <b_jonas> [ 'hello'
11:49:38 <j-bot> b_jonas: hello
11:49:42 <Melvar> I was thinking like passing /proc/self/fd/42 .
11:49:51 <Melvar> Or whatever fd you happen to get.
11:49:52 <b_jonas> Melvar: if it helps, j-bot here ^ passes a file descriptor number
11:49:55 <boily> ^prefixes
11:49:55 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:50:47 <b_jonas> from the bot parent process to each interpreter process, in a command-line argument
11:51:15 <Melvar> I meant without the child process being set up to do this.
11:51:33 <b_jonas> Melvar: you can try it even without
11:51:54 <b_jonas> Melvar: recent versions of bash actually have some helping syntax for this:
11:51:56 <Melvar> Just using /proc/self/fd/ to point it at a file descriptor one has made sure to leave open.
11:52:23 <int-e> `` echo <(echo Hi!)
11:52:24 <HackEgo> ​/dev/fd/63
11:52:41 <int-e> `` cat <(echo Hi!)
11:52:42 <HackEgo> Hi!
11:53:00 <Melvar> Oh, that actually does that. Nice.
11:53:05 <b_jonas> instead of explicitly giving file descriptor numbers like ( someprogram --magical_fd=6 6<somefile ) you can use shell parameters something like ( someprogram --magical_fd=$magical {magical}<somefile )
11:56:13 <int-e> `` help coproc # hmm
11:56:14 <HackEgo> coproc: coproc [NAME] command [redirections] \ Create a coprocess named NAME. \ \ Execute COMMAND asynchronously, with the standard output and standard \ input of the command connected via a pipe to file descriptors assigned \ to indices 0 and 1 of an array variable NAME in the executing shell. \ The default NAME is "COPROC
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13:32:08 <TieSoul> hi
13:34:40 <vanila> hi
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14:05:15 <Lilax> OK so calculus 2 end of course exam today
14:05:21 <Lilax> I am going to fail
14:06:47 <vanila> why??
14:08:36 <Lilax> Because I only know calc 1
14:08:50 <Lilax> and the second course is a lot harder
14:09:09 <Lilax> I didn't Take that class but still they make me ;-;
14:10:17 <Lilax> Also it starts at 7 in the morning so I'm gonna be half dead
14:13:07 <vanila> get to bed early]
14:13:39 <Lilax> Its 6 am right now and I'm on the bus
14:13:48 <Lilax> Headed towards school
14:13:54 <vanila> oh no :*(
14:14:01 <Lilax> Anyways
14:14:15 <Lilax> Atleast multiple choice is an option
14:15:08 <Lilax> Anyways
14:15:20 <Lilax> Bye o/
14:15:49 <vanila> bye]
14:28:41 <APic> GL
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14:57:22 <shachaf> $ ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -XSafe Unsafe.hs -e "uc 'a' :: Int"
14:57:25 <shachaf> 97
15:02:50 <int-e> shachaf: tell me more?
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15:28:32 <int-e> shachaf: this is not fair. I *know* that unsafeCoerce is sufficient for unsafePerformIO so I need to know whether this works in lambdabot.
15:29:11 <shachaf> int-e: Not sure if I should tell people details right away since it's a security bug.
15:29:21 <shachaf> But I guess you'd be one of the people affected...
15:30:26 <int-e> I'd be happy to know whether this relies on some particular extension or library that I could disable.
15:31:38 <int-e> or whether it comes down to pulling the plug on @run
15:31:56 <shachaf> I thought the whole thing was in a sandbox anyway?
15:32:39 <int-e> It's a VPS that nothing else is running on. I'm not too keen on reinstalling that from scratch.
15:32:51 <shachaf> I wonder whether anyone other than lambdabot relies on SafeHaskell.
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15:36:27 <int-e> there may be some web services
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15:42:59 <int-e> And I guess you're right, I should add an actual sandbox layer.
15:43:20 <shachaf> run lambdabot inside HackEgo hth
15:45:02 <int-e> `` ghc --version
15:45:03 <HackEgo> bash: ghc: command not found
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18:55:45 <quintopia> when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)?
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19:51:14 <`^_^v> as someone who has used the wiki upwards of 5 times, i would say "who cares"
19:54:03 <GeekDude> I say you should put the year in unix time
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20:22:48 <J_Arcane> "head is a mistake! It should not be in the Prelude. Other partial Prelude functions you should almost never use include tail, init, last, and (!!). From this point on, using one of these functions on a homework assignment will lose style points!"
20:23:00 <J_Arcane> O_o That's an ... interesting assertion.
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20:31:24 <vanila> lol
20:32:08 <vanila> i dont know how people expect to use total functions all the time in a language wthout dependent types or similar
20:32:32 <vanila> you can't express enough in the haskell type system to stick to that doctrine
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20:42:45 <int-e> J_Arcane: that sounds a bit dogmatic
20:46:08 <int-e> > init . tails $ [1,2,3]
20:46:10 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]]
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20:46:19 <int-e> > init . tails $ []
20:46:21 <lambdabot> []
20:46:43 <vanila> > tails . init $ [1,2,3]
20:46:45 <lambdabot> [[1,2],[2],[]]
20:47:23 <int-e> vanila: well I was trying to make a point that "init" and "tail" can be used as building blocks of total functions.
20:47:46 <int-e> > tail . inits $ [1,2,3] -- there's this counterpart, too.
20:47:47 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,2],[1,2,3]]
20:48:02 <vanila> > inits . tails $ "qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"
20:48:04 <lambdabot> [[],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm"],["qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm","wertyuiopa...
20:48:32 <int-e> > (>>= init . tails) . tail . inits $ [1,2,3]
20:48:33 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,2],[2],[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]]
20:48:38 <vanila> haha
20:48:39 <vanila> cool
20:49:45 <int-e> I would agree that (!!) tends to be a special purpose operator
20:50:29 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) !! 10
20:50:30 <lambdabot> 55
20:50:47 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
20:50:51 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
20:52:15 <int-e> (mainly because when find yourself using !! a lot, lists are probably the wrong data structure to use)
21:10:02 <J_Arcane> Bugger it. I am too fucking braindead to do this homework right now. My brain keeps running in circles.
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21:14:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TrudyWordzvqxsgm * New user account
21:15:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Abuse filter * blocked [[User:TrudyWordzvqxsgm]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Automatically blocked by abuse filter. Description of matched rule: first edit is to user page and contains spambot-like use of br tag
21:20:25 <vanila> br tag??
21:20:38 <vanila> I know my rights and the BR tag is one of hem
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21:31:11 <J_Arcane> oh lord, I see by a peek ahead to HW4 that my friend the binary tree comes back to visit again. XD
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23:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ComeFrom2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41688&oldid=41687 * DDR * (+2892) Added missing list of operators.
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23:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> when creating a new language article on the wiki, should one use the year the language was designed or the current year (year it was first published)?
23:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> year of design obviously, brainfuck's in [[Category:1993]] rather than 200whatever
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