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00:28:48 <oerjan> <b_jonas> also, people, if you understand how these crazy automaton that are turing complete but require exponential time work, try answering http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/8067 Conjecture about two counters automata <-- i understand how they're TC but not so much how to prove that things can still be impossible with the wrong input format. commented on a simpler subproblem mentioned, anyway.
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00:51:12 <Taneb> Ugh, bouncer crashed, lost all my channels
00:52:23 <Taneb> Trying to remember where I was
00:52:27 <Taneb> If you've seen me leave a channel and not rejoin, please tell me?
00:53:00 <oerjan> you've rejoined all 1 channels we have in common hth
00:53:07 <Taneb> oerjan, good to know
00:53:20 <Taneb> My list of channels feels... empty
00:54:22 <oerjan> clearly this show the danger of relying on technology hth
00:55:46 <Taneb> I am not sure where you are adding that s
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00:59:29 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. you left the various trains channels.
00:59:54 <Taneb> I'm still missing some, I'm sure
01:01:43 <boily> meanwhile, I shall lâchement disappear. it may involve a shiny new mattress. 'night all!
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01:08:41 <oerjan> ok so much for looking at the _real_ question of that cstheory post, the main method of the linked article is completely impenetrable to my brain.
01:09:12 <oerjan> (holy shit so many indices)
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01:14:00 <oerjan> looks like there was a netsplit apocalypse earlier today...
01:15:04 <Taneb> I think I've got most of the channels I care about
01:15:25 <elliott> Taneb: have you considered putting them on autojoin
01:15:38 <Taneb> elliott, they were, the bouncer had quite a serious crash
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01:16:02 <elliott> it doesn't save its state to disk...?
01:16:03 <Taneb> Also I am now going to bed
01:16:33 <Taneb> I don't know, a friend runs it
01:17:41 <oerjan> well those logs just got a lot quicker to get through
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04:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41682&oldid=41680 * BCompton * (+22) Stub, Dead link templates
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06:18:13 <oerjan> so the biggest difference was henkma not using an operator
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06:19:05 <int-e> right. the 40 alphanum version I spoke about replaced the two _ by letters as well.
06:20:03 <int-e> ohwow. char*p=sbrk(1)
06:21:07 * shachaf looks for what's being discussed there.
06:22:07 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Kimariji is over and the code has been revealed
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06:26:12 <oerjan> int-e: let me guess, that entry is horrifyingly undefined behavior
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06:28:55 <int-e> I'm not sure how it works yet.
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06:29:12 <int-e> oerjan: of course the allocation is completely undefined
06:31:46 <oerjan> i'm assuming it works in practice because allocations are always done in whole pages...
06:32:09 <int-e> well, here's a hint ... the program segfaults if I submit it as is.
06:32:47 <int-e> (I can only assume that it segfaults almost always, but not all the time)
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06:34:18 <int-e> and I don't understand why it has *t++ += *p instead of *t++ = *p...
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06:41:15 <int-e> Oh, I get it (and actually that includes the +=). The loop body works perfectly fine.
06:41:41 <int-e> it's the allocation and the b%65 check that are iffy.
06:42:28 <int-e> and apparently anagol uses ASLR :P
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06:46:19 <int-e> err no, I still don't get the +=
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06:49:32 <int-e> Ok, after *t=read(0,p+1)+p, t points to the last character read (a newline), and p points to a zero byte; the first *t++ += *p keeps that final newline intact.
06:52:31 <zzo38> How did banding used to work in Magic: the Gathering if opponent is attacking with one creature with trample, and if I block with fifteen creatures, one of which has banding?
06:52:46 <zzo38> I mean how it works in Fourth Edition, not how it works under current rules.
07:01:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: ugh, I have no idea how the rules worked back in fourth ed
07:01:49 <b_jonas> I don't even really want to know
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07:04:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wanted to say something about those keyword abilities you list
07:05:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: I sort of like Covering, because it's similar to banding but simpler
07:05:14 <int-e> oerjan: oh. The total input plus output size *barely* fits into a single page on x86: it's 3979. So that explains the segfaults... they happen when the *next* page is accessed.
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07:05:39 <b_jonas> though of course I like banding for nostalgy reasons even if the rules for it are somewhat complicated (and I'm not even sure I understand them right, I'll have to re-read them)
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07:07:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think "retract" sound like a bad name for a keyword ability because it is one letter off from "retrace" and there's also a card named "Retrace"
07:08:02 <int-e> oerjan: So I believe I understand the program now, except perhaps the %65 (I have a calculation where the 65 comes out, but have not thought through an off-by-one phenomenon involved.)
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07:09:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: for "switchable", I sort of like the idea, but I think it would be better if defenses didn't have to be legal after you rearrange the creatures.
07:11:16 <b_jonas> that's sort of how banding works as well: the defending player declares blockers ignoring banding, checking evasion and must block and other similar abilities; then creatures that block a creature in a band are magically set to block all other creatures in the band too, without checking anything.
07:11:27 <b_jonas> I think. But I might be misunderstanding the rules.
07:12:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: apart from covering and switchable, I don't really like these keyword abilities at first look.
07:12:24 <b_jonas> but that of course doesn't mean much.
07:13:05 <b_jonas> and of course you might want to list at least one example card for the keywords.
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07:15:21 <zzo38> I am not at home right now so I will not fix it right now, although about changing the name it is correct.
07:15:31 <zzo38> Also I actually thought of other ideas to change some of the things too
07:15:51 <zzo38> Also, I can understand how banding works now and I do like it
07:16:01 <zzo38> But I still needed to know how it used to work, due to a puzzle
07:16:18 <b_jonas> I like bandding as well, but probably partly for a nostalgy reasons
07:16:46 <int-e> owww. a=list(open('../fd/0'))
07:17:01 <b_jonas> like, I'm upset on how Benalish Hero is stripped of his well-deserved Hero title because Hero is no longer a creature type
07:19:14 <elliott> int-e: anagol programs run in /dev??
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07:21:10 <zzo38> b_jonas: I'm not so sure that Hero is really a necessary creature type anyways, it doesn't seem to me working as well as using the more modern creature types, but I don't know entirely for sure. However, none of that changes the name of the card, so it still says "Hero" on the name, if you want it to say "Hero" on it.
07:22:49 <int-e> elliott: nope. they run on /golf/test, and there's a symlink in /golf
07:23:10 <int-e> elliott: it's possible that at some point they were run in /dev or in /proc/self...
07:23:30 <int-e> err, no, the latter is wrong
07:24:04 <int-e> elliott: in /dev/shm probably
07:24:55 <elliott> wait, /dev/shm has fds in it?
07:25:03 <int-e> elliott: note the ../
07:25:37 <int-e> (note also that I'm speculating about where the programs used to be run.)
07:26:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, the hero is still there in the name and flavor text
07:29:15 <b_jonas> some of the old banding cards are riddiculous of course. they're like “You may assign damage from blocking tapped Griffons you control as if creatures it blocks didn't have “bands with other Legends with plainswalk”.”
07:30:40 <zzo38> I haven't seen stuff like that
07:30:48 <b_jonas> It's the simple cards with ordinary banding that I like. I have a playset of Benalish Hero, and at least one of the bigger soldier, the griffon, the green elephant, the Helm of Chatzuk (or whatever is spelled), and maybe one or two others.
07:32:53 <zzo38> In some article by Wizards of the Coast I saw "Friendly Goblin" which has "Bands with other Minotaurs", and then discuss the rules below; they claimed how the older rules work, but now there are new rules for "bands with other" which are more sensible and this work in the better way.
07:32:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's an exaggeration. the actual bad cards are the _cycle_ of Cathedral of Serra, plus Shelkin Brownie and Great Wall
07:33:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the way they errataed "bands with other" to be more powerful shows how riddiculous that ability used to be
07:33:47 <b_jonas> the old rules said you could form bands only if _all_ creatures in the band had the same "bands with other" ability
07:34:15 <zzo38> Yes I know that's how it worked before, and I know how it works now, too. I read about that.
07:35:09 <b_jonas> those riddiculous old cards are what Old Fogey parodies, and I for one think it's a great parody
07:35:10 <zzo38> It doesn't mean I know how exactly banding used to work in general, only how "bands with other" creatures banded (which doesn't explain what it does, though, just what it bands with).
07:35:11 <vanila> http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.5184
07:36:10 <elliott> "that is the Kolmogorov complexity of their Kolmogorov complexity is small" x_x
07:38:00 <b_jonas> luckily, that suckiness of "bands with others" is relevant on only a few cards (besides Old Fogey), because the Cathedral of Serra cycle gives all the relevant creatures the ability, Master of the Hunt create tokens that used to have a unique creature type so they couldn't band with anything else anyway (it's no longer a creature type), and there's basically no other card with that ability
07:40:11 <b_jonas> oh, it's a pegaus, Mesa Pegasus, not a griffin
07:40:31 <b_jonas> and the banding elephant is white, not green
07:40:48 <b_jonas> (it's a trained war elephant with someone sitting on it, not a wild elephant)
07:41:11 <b_jonas> and there's two bigger solders I've been confusing: Pikemen and Icatian Phalanx
07:41:33 <b_jonas> no wait, there's a griffin too
07:45:10 <zzo38> I once saw a scale where they guess how likely it is for certain things to be used again in later sets, on a scale of 1 meaning most likely and 10 meaning least likely; on that scale, "bands with other" is at 11. Nevertheless I may write some cards with banding and/or bands with other, too.
07:45:10 <b_jonas> that means, incidentally, Shelkin Brownie is almost useless in the new rules,
07:45:10 <b_jonas> because if you have _one_ creature lose "bands with other", it can still band because the other creatures have it
07:45:10 <b_jonas> (not that it was useful before)
07:45:10 <b_jonas> but just straight banding is great
07:45:10 <b_jonas> even if we won't see it again
07:45:15 <shachaf> "with other legendary creatures" would be a good name for a band
07:46:32 <zzo38> Well, I also want to write a card with "protection from legendary".
07:46:55 <b_jonas> I mean, we probably won't see Scryb Sprites again either, but that won't stop me from liking it and trying to use it in decks
07:46:57 <zzo38> Or, "protection from legendary and planeswalkers"
07:48:05 <b_jonas> protection from legendary? hmm... what color would that want to be?
07:48:59 <zzo38> A lot of protection stuff seems to be in white but it can be in any colors.
07:49:58 <b_jonas> White has the general "choose a color, ... has protection from that color" stuff, and prevention effects in general
07:50:17 <b_jonas> like, Order of the Stars and any of the dozen instants or enchantments that give protection from chosen color
07:50:49 <b_jonas> but all colors get specific themed protection effects
07:52:57 <zzo38> Of course each color also has two opposites
07:54:35 <b_jonas> yes, that's why most color hosers like Honorable Scout go for opposite colors, though some go for neighbuoring colors
07:54:54 <b_jonas> I'm trying to learn to spell "neighbor" and "behavior" consistently in the american spelling
07:55:17 <b_jonas> (I don't claim I'll try to learn that for the more complicated words too, just for the common ones "color", "neighbor", "behavior")
07:56:10 <zzo38> But you can find white cards with protection from any colors, including white
07:56:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, because white gets all the preventation effects since the Circles of Protection
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07:57:54 <b_jonas> Searching for "legandary" in rules text, let's see. There's "Ayumi, the Last Visitor", Empress Galina, Feast of Worms, Hero's Demise (it doesn't kill Heros because they demoted Heros),
07:59:37 <zzo38> White card with protection from white would also be protected from damaging itself, such as the "confusion" keyword I made up, and possibly also a few other cards
07:59:55 <shachaf> hm, Hero's Demise is p. different from Hero's Downfall
08:01:34 <shachaf> zzo38: What is the "confusion" keyword?
08:01:50 <b_jonas> Tsabo Tavoc, Willow Satyr. wow, that's a lot of legend hosers.
08:02:06 <zzo38> shachaf: You would have to look it up on my computer
08:02:21 <b_jonas> s/Livona Silone/Livonya Silone/
08:02:36 <shachaf> zzo38: But I always lose the link.
08:03:26 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt.
08:03:38 <b_jonas> oh right, and Limited has a full Ward cycle, a cycle of one mana auras giving protection from a particualr color
08:04:44 <zzo38> I will probably change a few of the keyword abilities too. The names of "retract" and "switchable" probably should be changed, and for covering I intend to allow it to have something similar to forming bands but for blocking instead of attacking
08:05:59 <shachaf> zzo38: You should teach HackEgo that link so I can fetch it when necessary.
08:06:05 <zzo38> Another thing I thought of is "protection from permanents". I think it would still allow you to play an Aura on such a card, but then the Aura is immediately going to be discarded. It might still be useful if it has modular or reduces the toughness of a creature, though.
08:06:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Why don't you add the file to HackEgo? (Also, you should remove the extra period at the end please)
08:07:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: Unquestioned Authority is one of the best cards that give protection
08:07:06 <shachaf> zzo38: Your HTTP server seems to ignore trailing periods.
08:07:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Even if it does, please remove the trailing period anyways. Also please preserve the case of everything after the domain name, even though it ignores case too in most cases.
08:08:15 <b_jonas> also, as I like protection, I hate "damage can't be prevented" effects that hose it
08:08:24 <shachaf> `slashlearn zzo38mtg/http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
08:08:34 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe wisdom isn't the best place to put it.
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08:10:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you turning Arcbound Wanderer into double scoop french vanilla?
08:10:48 <zzo38> I also still like to see what tasks there might be for Magic: the Gathering. I suppose one task is positions where nobody knows whether or not it is a draw, because of some unsolved mathematical problem or something. Other tasks could be ones where you need to get priority during the cleanup step in order to win, or ones involving conceding.
08:11:20 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, because I don't like the way they originally designed it, which just doesn't make much sense to me and looks stupid to me.
08:12:11 <Jafet> Ugh, it turns out that linux limits the number of mmap regions for each process. (Oddly, it returns ENOMEM when you reach the limit.) Fortunately, it can be increased with sysctl.
08:12:46 <shachaf> zzo38: Why does Persisting Torture have Unleash?
08:13:11 <shachaf> Ah, I see, you might not want the counter.
08:13:36 <zzo38> For one thing I think it makes it persist even more due to the rule that cancels out +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters.
08:13:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, wait, and there was one more thing
08:14:17 <zzo38> Normally, no, but I have deleted the rule that disallows auras that are also creatures from being immediately placed into the graveyard, therefore auras can block.
08:14:45 <zzo38> b_jonas: Like I said I cannot fix this file now; maybe on weekend though, I am not at home right now.
08:14:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: the overlay keyword seems a bit dangerous. is there really rules support for gaining all abilities of an arbitrary permanent?
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08:15:27 <zzo38> I believe so, even though many abilities will do nothing on some permanents.
08:15:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: at least it shuold gain only its text box, not all abilities (including ones conferred from auras which may reference thos auras)
08:16:19 <zzo38> I did think of doing that but decided against it; however I may have been wrong
08:16:38 <zzo38> Perhaps copy of what is in the text box is better (like how splice does)
08:18:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you mind if I show some people that link?
08:18:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: think of copying from a creature that has a Nettlevine Blight linked
08:19:23 <zzo38> shachaf: It is fine if you show it; it is all public domain. However be aware that the contents of the file are subject to being changed (although it is likely that much of it will be kept with only minor changes, this isn't completely guaranteed).
08:19:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: also imagine a creature getting multiple characteristic-setting abilities that set its p/t. I think the rules handle it, but it's awkward, and even copying the text won't help that.
08:19:32 <shachaf> zzo38: How does Terrible Plan work?
08:19:49 <shachaf> You're not required to play it if you draft it, are you?
08:20:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's a reason why so far we only have "overwrite with copy plus this particular ability" effects and "gains all activated abilities of target" effects
08:20:18 <zzo38> You aren't required to play it if you draft it, but if you don't, you won't get the ability of some other conspiracies that require that you *do* use all cards you draft!
08:20:58 <shachaf> Ah, there was that card that let you get any color of karma from basic lands.
08:21:56 <zzo38> And if it is a draft that includes both Emblegoyf and Terrible Plan, you might play it to give Emblegoyf +1/+1 at the cost of you lose 5 life points (although this still probably isn't the best strategy; although perhaps it helps with other cards too)
08:22:54 <b_jonas> hmm, now I wonder how that thing would work Nettlevine Blight
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08:26:44 <shachaf> I had a question about Pact of Negation once: Are you required to pay mana for it at the beginning of your next upkeep if it's in your mana pool? If it isn't in your mana pool, are you required to activate mana abilities for it?
08:27:00 <shachaf> For some reason it says "pay ..." and not "you may pay ..."
08:27:53 <zzo38> I believe that you are never required to activate mana abilities even if something forces you to pay a cost with mana (in such a case, paying the cost fails).
08:28:02 <zzo38> I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is how it works.
08:29:41 <shachaf> But if the mana is in your mana pool, you're required to pay it?
08:30:31 <shachaf> (Even if you control a Platinum Angel, for instance?)
08:30:52 <zzo38> That I don't know.
08:31:08 <b_jonas> I want to use Gorgon's Touch on a Taunting Elf
08:32:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's something about that in a faq iirc: it's deliberately mandatory to pay because otherwise tournament players would accidentally forget to announce that they pay before they untap and so lose the game on a technicality
08:32:56 <b_jonas> and they didn't want to annoy players with that
08:33:15 <shachaf> You pay in your upkeep, but fair enough.
08:33:37 <b_jonas> yes, that's even more serious, because drawing gives you new information
08:33:43 <shachaf> (Making your pay before you untap would defeat the purpose.)
08:34:30 <shachaf> What happens if you accidentally draw?
08:35:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not quite sure, that's a tournament rules question not a comprehensive rules question
08:35:16 <int-e> Then you lose? I mean you saw the card, and thus have extra information.
08:35:35 <shachaf> b_jonas: I know, but you just brought it up. :-)
08:35:37 <int-e> Which may affect how you pay the cost, for example.
08:35:38 <zzo38> Same as in any other card game I suppose?
08:35:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: I imagine the judge would give you a warning and determine what you tapped to pay for it
08:36:21 <b_jonas> which might be bad but not as bad as losing the game
08:36:38 <zzo38> Are there any mana abilities that care about your life total or cause you to gain life?
08:36:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Shadowmonger would be interesting if any player could use the ability to add or remove Shadow until end of turn.
08:37:06 <shachaf> You could call it Sneetch.
08:37:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: almost. there's Grove of the Burnwillows
08:37:53 <zzo38> OK, although why that name? I'm not complaining I just ask.
08:38:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also mana abilities with life payment costs, which sort of care because you can't pay if you ahve too few life
08:38:39 <shachaf> zzo38: After this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories
08:38:41 <zzo38> Yes but those aren't the things I meant
08:39:04 <shachaf> Well, the first story in that book. I don't know if you've read it.
08:39:13 <zzo38> I have never seen it
08:42:02 <b_jonas> int-e: the sest faq says "Paying the mana at the beginning of your next upkeep is not optional. However, playing mana abilities to generate the mana is optional. The effect can't force you to tap your lands, but it will force you to spend mana in your mana pool if you've generated enough."
08:42:54 <shachaf> b_jonas: Ah, that answers my question.
08:42:56 <zzo38> That was actually my guess too
08:43:11 <shachaf> It was my conclusion too when I was wondering about it a while ago.
08:45:17 <zzo38> I tried to make up a somewhat better puzzle which is based on puzzle.1 which I called puzzle.2 although it isn't particularly good either; at the bottom I listed some possible improvements.
08:47:28 <zzo38> Another kind of task might be a task where your cards in hand are same as opponent's cards in hand and your response is required to be the corresponding card based on what card opponent played. It is a little bit like a Babson task I suppose, but not really.
08:48:00 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus
08:48:07 <vanila> This is even shorter than Haskell's 23 byte long
08:48:07 <vanila> nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]
08:48:22 <vanila> even though the haskell one uses a bunch of high level prelude stuff..
08:49:42 <elliott> to be fair, you could probably write a haskell one that gets rather close
08:49:46 <elliott> except for the fact that you won't have the bit encoding
08:50:02 <elliott> but representation things like that are a little cheaty as far as kolgomorov complexity goes
08:50:15 <elliott> vanila: well, worst case you can just write it as haskell lambdas with newtypes as necessarily :p
08:50:21 <Jafet> > length "nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]" * ceiling (logBase 2 (genericLength $ nub "nubBy(((>1).).gcd)[2..]"))
08:50:24 <vanila> thats giong to be way longer!
08:50:35 <elliott> yeah but it evens out for programs that aren't really short to start with
08:50:44 <zzo38> But some such things are reason I want to invent a programming language for writing the rules of Magic: the Gathering and other similar kind of games and for the cards for them
08:50:47 <elliott> you always get like at least over *8 just because of syntax
08:50:56 <elliott> but that's kind of a boring way to win golf
08:51:31 <Jafet> Most of that article shouldn't be on wikipedia imo
08:51:33 <elliott> it would be fun to have a bit strings <-> closed lambda terms bijection
08:51:42 <elliott> (in BCT they can be open too)
08:53:19 <zzo38> I did think of ideas of it, such as that the program consists of zero or more "extensions", so the programs form a idempotent commutative monoid, however some combinations of extensions are errors. Also, it somewhat resembles a kind of strongly-typed Lisp, and there is five kind of syntax elements: number, string, name, newname, compound.
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08:55:50 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 an idempotent commutative monoid is usually called a (bounded) semilattice hth
08:55:53 <mroman> Facebook has hashtags?
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08:57:27 <shachaf> @tell zzo38 your document says "bands with othe" instead of "bands with other"
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09:07:28 <mroman> well... this is disappointig
09:07:39 <mroman> txt <- readFile "src.hs"
09:09:31 <mroman> looks like with multiple writeFile calls only the last writeFile is actually carried out
09:10:09 <Jafet> writeFile f s creates a file f containing s.
09:10:21 <Jafet> @hoogle appendFile
09:10:23 <lambdabot> Prelude appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
09:10:23 <lambdabot> System.IO appendFile :: FilePath -> String -> IO ()
09:10:23 <lambdabot> Data.ByteString appendFile :: FilePath -> ByteString -> IO ()
09:12:18 <Jafet> Actually writeFile replaces the contents if f already exists. How strange.
09:15:55 <elliott> I thought there was a quite of almost exactly that
09:15:59 <elliott> why are the quotes so bad.
09:16:07 <elliott> mroman: it's because of lazy IO
09:16:18 <elliott> maybe lazy IO works fine there
09:17:59 <vanila> echo " Hello, world" | ./tromp
09:18:18 <vanila> <- the first half of this byte is 0100 the identity function (= 'cat' program)
09:23:34 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/118411
09:29:42 <vanila> how to write 'take 10' to get a finit list from the primer program
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09:35:23 <vanila> how is the input and output stream represented
09:35:31 <vanila> i dont know the data formats
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09:44:22 <vanila> what are the data formats for input and output?
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10:19:00 <vanila> can anyone help me with BLC
10:19:13 <vanila> echo "\i (\c n n)" > four && cat parse.Blc four | ./tromp > four.blc
10:19:20 <vanila> it segfaults when i try to run it
10:20:28 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_lambda_calculus#Binary_I.2FO this describes the IO btw
10:21:04 <elliott> z is soem terminator thing
10:21:52 <vanila> I got it to output 0 and 1 thanks
10:22:14 <vanila> http://lpaste.net/118412
10:22:52 <vanila> "The z appearing in the above expression requires some further explanation."
10:22:58 <vanila> and there is no further explanation
10:22:59 <elliott> is there a combinatory logic system that doesn't have massive overhead over lambda terms?
10:23:34 <vanila> because turning a lambda term into SK makes it bigger
10:23:46 <elliott> I feel like if you can avoid dealing with variable binding that is nicer
10:24:19 <vanila> oh it does go into more detail about z...
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11:32:41 <Jafet> Oh, someone had already computed a bunch of base 2,3 palindromes but didn't submit them to the OEIS.
11:36:49 <b_jonas> Jafet: have you submitted yours by the way? I think at least one still fits
11:40:32 <Jafet> It's right there in the linked newsgroup thread, which I didn't read before.
11:44:46 <boily> are all sequences on OEIS infinite?
11:45:31 <Jafet> Some are believed to be: http://oeis.org/A001220
11:46:00 <b_jonas> boily: no, it has finite sequences
11:46:24 <b_jonas> boily: there is even a "fini" flag for sequences, I don't recall if it means it's finite or that all terms are listed
11:46:41 <b_jonas> boily: the rule is that there has to be at least four terms listed
11:47:19 <b_jonas> boily: http://oeis.org/eishelp2.html#RK , keywords "fini" and "full"
11:47:52 <boily> Jafet: two glorious terms in the sequence!
11:47:58 <boily> b_jonas: interesting.
11:48:05 <b_jonas> hmm, apparently it's not, because A029495 has only three terms
11:48:16 <b_jonas> yeah, A001220 has only two
11:48:45 <b_jonas> there are a couple of other sequences with only three
11:49:14 <b_jonas> and look A076337 has only one term listed
11:49:19 <b_jonas> is there any sequence with no term listed?
11:49:54 <b_jonas> I don't have the full database downloaded, so there might be more such things
11:52:56 <b_jonas> the most frequent keywords are "nonn" and "easy" by the way
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15:51:43 <Taneb> I had my first Ring Theory lecture today
15:51:49 <Taneb> One thing in it annoyed me
15:52:00 <Taneb> The definition of a ring slightly differs from the one I am used to
15:57:02 <vanila> what was the difference
15:59:34 <Taneb> vanila, I'm used to multiplicative identity being a ring axiom, in the lecture it wasn't necessary for something to be a ring
16:01:13 <vanila> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rng_%28algebra%29
16:01:37 <fizzie> That's the silliest name.
16:23:48 <mroman> PRNG-Algebra is my favorite kind of algebra.
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16:47:03 <J_Arcane> Heh. There's a Codewars 'kata' to implement a befunge interpreter.
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17:51:56 <FireFly> There's also 'rig': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rig_%28algebra%29
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18:11:28 <J_Arcane> ... some of the homeworks for cis194 are frankly inscrutable to me.
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18:15:41 <J_Arcane> http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/lectures.html
18:28:22 <int-e> egotistical hacker, hmm. time to stop.
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18:30:11 <J_Arcane> Not even remotely sure I've done this exercise properly yet.
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18:33:30 <int-e> elliott: the phrase appears near the end of the second exercise sheet of that cis194 course.
18:34:09 <elliott> I don't quite understand but okay
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18:35:39 <int-e> elliott: neither did I ;-)
18:36:09 <int-e> (maybe it makes sense if one actually writes the (boring) log file parser stuff)
18:38:52 <J_Arcane> Blargh. I actually have no fucking clue how to use this data structure at all.
18:39:05 <J_Arcane> It strikes me as needlessly arcane.
18:40:18 <int-e> J_Arcane: which exercise?
18:45:39 <int-e> Ah. Exercise 6 makes more sense now.
18:46:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:46:53 <int-e> `fetch http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/extras/02-ADTs/error.log
18:46:55 <HackEgo> 2015-01-14 18:46:53 URL:http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/spring13/extras/02-ADTs/error.log [330827/330827] -> "error.log" [1]
18:47:33 <int-e> < error.log grep ^'E [5-9][0-9]' | sort -n -k 3 | cut -d\ -f 4 | cut -c1
18:47:41 <int-e> `` < error.log grep ^'E [5-9][0-9]' | sort -n -k 3 | cut -d\ -f 4 | cut -c1
18:47:44 <HackEgo> M \ A \ D \ H \ A \ T \ T \ E \ R
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18:52:06 <int-e> J_Arcane: it's just a standard binary search tree; you can think of Leaf as representing a null pointer.
18:53:24 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I don't really know what that means. Like, I sorta get part of the general principle of binary search, but beyond that I'm lost.
18:53:35 <int-e> So except for the bonus exercise, I think this is all ok.
18:54:28 <int-e> To insert a key into a non-empty binary search tree, compare it to the key at the root; if it is smaller, insert it into the left subtree; otherwise, insert it into the right subtree
18:54:54 <J_Arcane> Yeah, that's my understanding too. My solution here however is ugly and doesn't seem to recur properly.
18:55:37 <int-e> (usually we will then do some more work to keep the tree balanced, but if items arrive in a random order, the tree will be fairly balanced without that extra work)
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19:00:18 <J_Arcane> This is what I have so far, but it's not chewing through a list properly: http://lpaste.net/118427
19:01:21 <int-e> J_Arcane: insert msg l <-- what happens to the right subtree if you do that?
19:02:02 <J_Arcane> Hmm. That's a good question. I should properly be inserting into l, while keeping r.
19:04:03 <J_Arcane> Doing "Node (insert msg l) msg2 r" seems to recur properly, and indeed gives me a sorted list.
19:05:40 <J_Arcane> Now to parse the Tree back out to a List.
19:08:39 <nortti> http://www.mike-worth.com/2013/03/31/baking-a-hello-world-cake/
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19:29:59 <J_Arcane> Nice. Finished it. Thanks for the help int-e
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19:40:14 <glguy> It's unfortunate that that exercise bakes the Unknown constructor into the LogMessage type
19:42:10 <J_Arcane> glguy: Yes. It makes the code a bit awkward, and makes GHC complain a lot about missing patterns that would never happen anyway.
19:42:24 <J_Arcane> It really should've been another message type like the others.
19:43:06 <glguy> J_Arcane: You've finished the whole week 2 assignment now?
19:43:43 <glguy> or the insert function specifically
19:48:20 <J_Arcane> And ran the tests to check for the result mentioned in ex. 6 even.
19:51:34 <Taneb> A friend has suggested that Open Transport Tycoon may be Turing complete
19:51:51 <Taneb> Does anyone who knows the game better have any information on the matter?
19:58:22 <Taneb> Hmm, he's not online...
19:58:39 <Taneb> @ask zzo38 Any idea whether Open Transport Tycoon is Turing complete?
19:59:01 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's only pspace-complete or something like that though
19:59:34 <lambdabot> http://zem.fi/2005-10-21-ttd-logic
19:59:34 <lambdabot> Title: Logic Gates in OpenTTD | 2005-10-21 | zem.fi
20:00:05 <b_jonas> oh right, it's not zzo38 then but fizzie
20:01:54 <mroman> ottd can emulate circuits
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23:34:48 <tswett> So, proofs that the calculus of construction is strongly normalizing.
23:34:56 <tswett> Specifically, syntactic ones.
23:34:59 <tswett> How do those tend to go?
23:36:36 <zzo38> I don't know stuff about Open Transport Tycoon
23:36:49 * oerjan only knew that for simple types, and has forgotten even that.
23:36:56 <lambdabot> shachaf said 14h 41m 5s ago: an idempotent commutative monoid is usually called a (bounded) semilattice hth
23:36:56 <lambdabot> shachaf said 14h 39m 28s ago: your document says "bands with othe" instead of "bands with other"
23:36:56 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 3h 38m 16s ago: Any idea whether Open Transport Tycoon is Turing complete?
23:37:16 <Taneb> zzo38, sorry, b_jonas had you mixed up with fizzie
23:37:20 <zzo38> I will fix my document when I am at home then
23:37:45 <tswett> Isn't there some formally defined class that's sort of like Turing completeness but is for finite things?
23:38:27 <oerjan> tswett: i guess there is something general for curry-howard isomorphic things based on consistent logics...
23:41:36 <oerjan> tswett: NP-complete and PSPACE-complete are things that tend to be proved about finite (but unbounded) things
23:42:13 <oerjan> e.g. generalized sudoku is NP-complete, sokoban is PSPACE-complete
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23:43:01 <oerjan> they're classes that tend to show up, of course there are an infinite number of other steps in the hierarchy
23:46:04 <oerjan> tswett: the problem is, if you have a class that only includes terminating computations, then it's either impossible to describe all elements effectively or you can adjust the proof of the halting problem to make a new class that is strictly larger
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23:47:52 <oerjan> basically, by being automatically terminating, the calculus of construction cannot contain all terminating computations
23:48:54 * oerjan is handwaving something fierce here
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23:50:42 <tswett> My message about "sort of like Turing completeness" was about OpenTTD, not the CoC.
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23:57:06 <oerjan> tswett: i think i gave answers for both :P
23:57:11 <zzo38> They didn't write the mana cost for "Friendly Goblin" so I made it up but I don't know if it is good
23:57:49 <tswett> So lemme think what the notation for all ordinals below the Feferman-Schutte ordinal would be.
23:58:18 <zzo38> However such a thing would give you some advantage for playing more than one creature type