←2015-01-12 2015-01-13 2015-01-14→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:02:00 <J_Arcane> oerjan: I think I find his argument rather convincing, and so will most likely do the FPComplete version of 194, and then the NICTA course. Interactive methods seem to work better for me anyway, I retain better.
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00:19:02 <oerjan> elliott: i shaved off one character hth main=putStr$'[':49`take`cycle"Dead,"++"]"
00:19:13 <elliott> oerjan: ty
00:19:21 <elliott> who's going to submit it to anagol
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00:23:43 <oerjan> > [0..9]>>[var"Dead"]
00:23:44 <lambdabot> [Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead,Dead]
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00:39:08 <shachaf> `olist 972
00:39:08 <HackEgo> olist 972: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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00:49:42 <oerjan> ooh
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01:11:26 <Slowmotion|Catas> Brb
01:11:45 <Slowmotion|Catas> These parasings on my client are amaze
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01:19:32 <Lilax> gonna play cards against humanity
01:19:34 <Lilax> bbl
01:21:17 <oerjan> *sigh* the drive comic's archive sucks so bad
01:22:15 <oerjan> there is no list of all comics that goes more than a year back, comic urls are by date and update have been sporadic for a long time...
01:22:55 * oerjan was trying to find the galaxy map to look up a planet mentioned in the latest comic
01:26:37 <oerjan> ah there
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01:35:35 <paul2520> Lilax:have fun!
01:35:49 <Lilax> Muahaha
01:35:53 <Lilax> Wanna join?
01:36:10 <paul2520> are you playing online?
01:36:34 <paul2520> actually, I'mma have to pass right now
01:36:39 <paul2520> but thanks for the invite
01:36:42 <paul2520> next time!
01:36:55 <Lilax> Ok
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01:50:13 <tswett2> oerjan: I'm not understanding your set builder notation.
01:50:54 <tswett2> You said let A = { y | y in O forall O in C, x /= y }. It seems like there should be a conjunction between the first "O" and the "forall", and I don't know what C and x are.
01:52:16 <tswett2> Now, my *real* question is:
01:52:56 <Lilax> Oh mai
01:53:00 <tswett2> Given a set, is a topology on that set completely determined by the set of all functions from Co to that set, where Co is the set containing 0 and all rational numbers of the form 1/n where n is an integer?
01:53:02 <oerjan> A is the set of y /= x that are contained in all O in C hth
01:53:18 <tswett2> And what's C? The space is called S.
01:53:36 <oerjan> C is your hypothetical countable family of open sets
01:53:44 <oerjan> which therefore cannot exist
01:54:24 <tswett2> Mm.
01:54:32 <tswett2> I should have written down my question way back when.
01:55:07 <tswett2> Eh, who cares about topological spaces without countable bases anyway.
01:55:59 <tswett2> I suddenly have the eerie feeling that the category of topological spaces with countable bases is cartesian closed.
01:56:16 <oerjan> your Co simply allows you to detect converging sequences afaict, so since those don't determine the topology in general the answer is no.
01:56:41 <tswett2> Is it a well-known fact that converging sequences don't determine the topology in general?
01:56:44 <oerjan> otherwise there would have been no need to invent nets.
01:56:57 <tswett2> This is starting to sound familiar.
01:57:02 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure it is.
01:57:19 <tswett2> Damn it, I need to go to grad school.
01:57:52 <oerjan> wouldn't my example from before show that? there are no not-eventually-constant converging sequences in that space, i think.
01:59:30 <oerjan> so it cannot be distinguished by sequences from the discrete space on the same set
02:01:13 <oerjan> (basically every countable set is closed, so no sequence can converge to anything outside its limit range)
02:01:27 <tswett2> I'll take your word for it.
02:01:48 <tswett2> My reason for bringing everything up comes from my distrust of excessively large mathematical objects.
02:01:57 <oerjan> well the topology is basically _defined_ by every countable set being closed.
02:02:04 <tswett2> Right.
02:02:55 <tswett2> I'm not experienced enough in topology for all this to make sense without a bunch of effort.
02:03:28 <tswett2> I think I've figured out which mathematical objects I find "acceptable". Maybe.
02:03:45 <tswett2> It's those with topologies with countable bases.
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02:04:03 <oerjan> tswett2: you might want to get hold of the book named "Counterexamples in topology"
02:08:22 <tswett2> The philosophically nice thing about points in spaces with countable bases is that, given two different (and distinguishable) points, you'll always be able to tell which is which by systematically performing an infinite number of experiments.
02:08:58 <oerjan> oh you mean countable overall, not just at each point
02:09:02 <oerjan> hm...
02:09:04 <tswett2> I think we're sort of talking past each other at this point.
02:09:20 <oerjan> well sure
02:10:16 <oerjan> there are some mathematical arguments that get a lot easier if you can just go total overkill with uncountable sets and axiom of choice though...
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02:16:56 <oerjan> ok maybe humanity is not doomed just yet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teixobactin
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02:25:27 <tswett2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-countable_space - oh, there's a word for it.
02:27:00 <oerjan> of course there is
02:27:20 <tswett2> Moreover, I'm pretty sure I knew the word already; I just forgot.
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02:33:56 <tswett2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_space - oh sweet.
02:36:01 <tswett2> "The subcategory Seq is a cartesian closed category with respect to its own product (not that of Top)." Nice.
02:36:07 <tswett2> Raises an obvious question, of course.
02:36:10 <tswett2> What is a product in Seq?
02:42:47 <oerjan> weird
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03:11:37 <Lilax> On the Next episode Of Dragon Ball Z Goku fights a feirce battle With puppets made from the skin of children!
03:11:48 <Lilax> I'm sorry I had too idk why
03:13:51 <elliott> v. random
03:14:06 <coppro> `unidecode @
03:14:06 <HackEgo> ​[U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT]
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03:15:27 <Lilax> how was your persons days
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05:09:46 <vanila> hey
05:09:48 <vanila> nwe stuff on esoteric.codes
05:10:12 <vanila> قلب (‘alb) prقلب (‘alb) pr
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05:35:26 <vanila> Esolangs made it clear to me that languages could be a medium themselves, but what makes قلب unique is that it uses this medium to communicate a specific cultural and political message about code itself.
05:37:08 <oerjan> heh
05:42:35 <int-e> oerjan: good morning, good night? (extrapolating from yesterday where I just missed you.)
05:44:06 <oerjan> closer to night
05:44:47 <int-e> ah, right, I meant the morning for myself and the night for you, but of course that didn't get across.
05:45:15 <oerjan> (of course my surroundings may consider it morning)
05:45:31 <int-e> ah who cares about those
05:45:42 <int-e> it's still dark here
05:49:38 <oerjan> well here too, i mean morning as in some people appear to be leaving for work...
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05:55:34 <int-e> hmm, not a single Burlesque solution for Kimariji...
05:56:29 <vanila> I saw this cool assembly languaeg self interpreter (virtualization)
05:56:34 <vanila> but i cant think of anything to do with it
05:56:35 <zzo38> I have made up a few new keyword abilities for Magic: the Gathering, which are called: Concentration, Covering, Fibonacci, Float, Lock, Overlay, Planestrample, Switchable.
05:57:00 <int-e> vanila: "virtualization" meaning machine code? if so, which processor?
05:57:08 <vanila> its a made up machine code
05:57:54 <int-e> oh
05:58:06 <vanila> http://i.imgur.com/uY0TfXF.png
05:58:08 <vanila> there's the code
05:58:57 <vanila> it lets you run machine code without it knowing its been run
05:59:03 <vanila> I think
05:59:14 <int-e> L.eval is missing?
05:59:22 <vanila> oh yeah
05:59:26 <vanila> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/papers/pepm08.pdf
05:59:27 <vanila> thats figure 3
05:59:37 <vanila> its just a dispatch loop
06:04:06 <int-e> Oh it's almost a VLIW architecture in spirit (you make the encoding ridiculously big, using a whole word for the opcode, in order to simplify decoding.)
06:04:27 <int-e> It's not really VLIW because instructions still have variable length.
06:04:42 <int-e> or not?
06:04:51 <vanila> VLIW is a new term to me, im just looking it up
06:04:52 <int-e> ah, no.
06:05:03 <int-e> they're fixed length, 4 words each.
06:05:15 <int-e> it's a silly term, "very large instruction word"
06:05:23 <int-e> or long?
06:07:11 <int-e> and it's hardly been used outside of microcode designs; the EPIC (Itanium) architecture looks VLIW-ish, and the Transmeta CPUs had a VLIW design. Maybe some DSPs do, too, and possibly GPUs, but no widespread mainstream processors that I'm aware of.
06:24:23 <int-e> "Java, a dead-end language with zero interesting syntax or semantics."
06:24:24 <vanila> its so cool!
06:24:27 <int-e> Well said.
06:24:40 <vanila> I want to try to do something with this but i cant think of any ideas
06:25:16 <vanila> java has some interesting ideas: Compiling to a bytecode vm, object oriented programming with classes and interfaces
06:25:26 <vanila> probably more i dont know
06:26:07 <int-e> bytecode is boring, OO is boring
06:26:52 <int-e> Btw do you know why Java is pretty much stuck with the bytecode as is?
06:27:23 <vanila> its not boring
06:27:36 <vanila> its an important technique in compilers
06:27:42 <int-e> "An enhancer is a tool that automatically adds code to your persistent classes after you have written them. The enhancer post-processes the bytecode generated by your Java compiler, adding the necessary fields and methods to implement the required persistence features. This bytecode modification perfectly preserves the line numbers in stack traces and is compatible with Java debuggers."
06:28:09 <int-e> People started doing crazy shit like that.
06:29:25 <int-e> Java will just never be cool. It's old, it's big, and it's Buzzword Compatbible. (Buzzwords are yesterday's cool ideas.)
06:30:41 <vanila> cool is stuff like node.js, dart, golang
06:30:47 <vanila> i dont care about cool languages
06:31:03 <int-e> then what are you doing here? ;-)
06:31:12 <vanila> esolangs
06:32:29 <Sgeo> Is Rust cool >.>
06:32:35 <vanila> yeah
06:32:40 <int-e> oh, node, which will win? Node.js or io.js?
06:32:41 * adu <3 Rust
06:33:29 <adu> vanila: I also like GoLang, but I don't see the point of node or dart
06:33:29 <int-e> (forks are interesting social experiments)
06:34:55 <int-e> I though that ECMAScript isn't too bad a language. (Not cool, but as far as I can see, most of the warts associated with Javascript are actually different interpretation of the W3C DOM, in particular when it comes to event propagation.)
06:35:59 <elliott> well it also has messed up scoping and coercion rules
06:36:00 <int-e> Otoh I think Node.js was just a cheap way of getting a fast scripting language: take an existing Browser VM and strip the browser parts.
06:36:10 <elliott> #opinions
06:36:20 <vanila> js scoping is esoteric
06:37:05 <adu> int-e: yeah, at least js has proper closures
06:37:18 <int-e> it's a prototype based language which is slightly uncommon.
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06:37:30 <elliott> it's a prototype-based language that pretends to be class-based :)
06:37:50 <int-e> elliott: yeah that pretention is a mistake.
06:38:12 <adu> vanila: I think JS is lexically scoped, which is pretty normal, not esoteric
06:38:22 <int-e> (well, half a mistake. if you didn't use it in a mostly class-based fashion, optimisation would be reallly hard.)
06:38:39 <vanila> adu, its not!
06:38:45 <myname> i don't like go
06:38:52 <adu> myname: why not?
06:39:08 <myname> i don't see its use case
06:39:16 <vanila> go had so much potential
06:39:27 <vanila> its a shame what they came out with
06:39:30 <int-e> adu: the surrounding object's properties are in scope, and those can change dynamically.
06:39:38 <vanila> for me a potential use case was to write C programs in (instaed of C)
06:39:41 <vanila> since its a lot safer
06:39:41 <myname> also it has too much strange properties for a modeen language
06:39:42 <Sgeo> Don't they have a workaround for the lack of generics or something?
06:39:53 <Sgeo> Or... not really sure
06:39:54 <vanila> really embarassing workarounds
06:40:02 <adu> myname: go's usecase is mostly in the highly-threaded inner-loop sector
06:40:04 <int-e> (A bit like Python? Nobody seems to complain there...)
06:40:04 <vanila> and the go community were extremely hostile when I proposed other solutions
06:40:28 <myname> adu: so, erlang?
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06:40:43 <int-e> (But of course, Python is more properly class based.)
06:40:51 <adu> Sgeo: Just think of Go as an untyped language, where everything is of type interface{} and it makes so much more sense
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06:41:19 <adu> myname: I know nothing about erlang
06:41:40 <vanila> dont you have to do a type-unsafe cast to use your interface{}s?
06:41:44 <myname> adu: it also makes stuff much more horrible
06:42:12 <myname> "go is not a bad language, but it's not a good language either"
06:42:34 <myname> why the hell does it still have null pointers
06:42:36 <int-e> there are no good programming languages.
06:42:58 <shachaf> int-e: are you saying that go is a no good programming language?
06:43:05 <adu> vanila: you do, but as Sgeo said, Go doesn't have generics, or conditional compilation, or macros, all of which their users are begging for
06:43:06 <myname> int-e: well, yeah, but rust gets as close to what i want as anything i know
06:43:21 <vanila> yeah, I think its a disappointment
06:43:22 <shachaf> or just that they exist
06:43:28 <int-e> ("There are two kinds of programming languages. Those that everybody complains about and those that nobody uses." -- I believe that's going to remain true for the foreseeable future.)
06:43:36 <vanila> int-e, I thnk R7RS scheme is a good language
06:44:02 <vanila> and ocaml
06:44:18 <int-e> meh, I'm *using* ocaml, it sucks :P
06:44:30 <vanila> what problems do take with it?
06:44:36 <vanila> i havent used it very much, im a beginner
06:44:41 <adu> vanila: and so from my perspective, it seems like those Go users who want generics are switching to Rust, because it's also aiming for the highly-threaded inner-loop market
06:45:05 <vanila> i have an issue with rust but nobody else seems to care :/
06:45:16 <adu> vanila: what issue?
06:45:30 <vanila> they should make a formal model of the type system and prove basic safety properties about it
06:45:49 <myname> go for a pull request :D
06:46:10 <vanila> this isn't something you can just hack up in a weekend
06:46:28 <adu> vanila: omg, I <3 R7RS-small
06:46:34 <vanila> :)
06:46:44 <vanila> do you use saggitarius scheme?
06:46:58 <adu> nope, I wrote my own scheme
06:47:01 <vanila> wow
06:47:02 <vanila> cool!
06:47:09 <int-e> starting with small syntacticaly oddities (postfix type constructors? WHY?!), to the fact that modules have to be initialised at runtime (which in the particular project I'm involved in means the program spends half a second just starting up... because it slavishly follows the interface/instance division in its design (not my decision, but hard to change now...)), tools that are not powerful enough to...
06:47:09 <vanila> i want to do that too but its hard..
06:47:15 <int-e> ...see through the flexible module systems in order to extract usable dependencies...
06:47:19 <int-e> That's just off the top of my head.
06:47:28 <int-e> or hat.
06:47:39 <Sgeo> int-e: I suspect you'd like Rust's no-life-before-main policy
06:47:42 <vanila> ohh wow int-e, thanks for good points! I had no idea about those
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06:49:33 <adu> vanila: have you seen any videos or slides about Rust's ownership model?
06:49:45 <vanila> ive not seen that adu
06:49:46 <int-e> Hmmm. Good night f j n u e i h p.
06:49:53 <vanila> f j n u e i h p????
06:50:08 <int-e> --- oerjan has quit [Quit: Gnfjnueihp] <-- trying to decipher this
06:50:16 <vanila> ooooo
06:50:53 <adu> vanila: http://www.slideshare.net/saneyuki/rusts-ownership-and-move-semantics
06:58:09 <myname> int-e: we could make an acronym game, everbody has to resolve one more letter
06:58:22 <myname> e.g. Good night for j n u e i h p
06:58:42 <lifthrasiir> Good night for just n u e i h p.
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07:02:40 <adu> good night fellow jolly nude entertainer in hot pants
07:04:09 <adu> nude -> nearly undressed?
07:07:59 <myname> i'm okay with that
07:08:27 <adu> good nougat flavoured 'n' umeboshi in hot pockets
07:08:37 <myname> we should ask oerjan who these jolly nearly undressed entertainers are
07:10:49 <elliott> good nate: footjob nate. understating egregious incidents, he's perfect.
07:11:52 <myname> wat
07:12:24 <int-e> "for just now" is possible
07:12:39 <int-e> I dunno
07:12:40 <adu> Good near-fail job. Now U, er, I have passed.
07:12:57 <int-e> @tell oerjan please expand Gnfjnueihp for us.
07:12:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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07:43:31 <Sgeo> adu: I'm having trouble reading those slides, due to the poor grasp of English
07:44:07 <adu> I'm sure there are other Rust presentations somewhere online
07:59:43 <int-e> "the safeness in parallel" is kind of cute.
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08:19:49 <b_jonas> `8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
08:19:50 <HackEgo> Ask again later.
08:19:54 <b_jonas> ok
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08:37:14 <vanila> is anyone familiar with futamura projections for making compilers?
08:39:56 <quintopia> why does futamura not be futurama
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09:04:17 <zzo38> What kind of "tasks" are there in Magic: the Gathering? (By "tasks" I mean like Babson task and so on in chess)
09:05:19 <shachaf> Do you mean for puzzles like Magic: The Puzzling?
09:05:36 <zzo38> Yes
09:10:55 <Jafet> Puzzles to make puzzles, how frightening
09:11:25 <int-e> An Enigma
09:13:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno
09:15:19 <zzo38> In chess, a "Babson task" is when white plays, black promotes a pawn, and the solution requires white to promote into the same kind of piece that black promoted into. Another task is Valladao task, where promotion, en passant, and castling are all required.
09:23:00 <Sgeo> zzo38: what do you think about rock paper scissors chess? http://leftoversoup.com/archive.php?num=34
09:24:23 <zzo38> I don't know.
09:25:19 <zzo38> It looks like it may be interesting kind of game though.
09:27:50 <int-e> Cute, Wikipedia has a disambiguation page for symbols-that-resemble-the-empty-set. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98_%28disambiguation%29
09:32:32 <shachaf> whoa, whoa, whoa
09:32:43 <shachaf> remember how in the lost vikings the zeros had slashes through them
09:34:59 <Jafet> None of the articles for those symbols seem to link to that page, though.
09:42:51 <mroman> http://codepad.org/4HHab77x
09:42:54 <mroman> hooray :)
09:43:44 <mroman> (I'm working on a new "esolang" that compiles to haskell)
09:43:52 <mroman> (with the intent to write a self-hosting compiler later on)
09:44:27 <mroman> 5+5. == +5 5. == 5 5+.
09:44:42 <mroman> operations are not carried out immediately but only after a "."
09:44:59 <mroman> "." carries out the most recent operation where as ";" carries out all operations in order
09:45:36 <mroman> 5-3*2.. (is 5-(3*2))
09:46:39 <mroman> whereas 5-3*2; is actually (3-2)*5
09:46:57 <b_jonas> what
09:50:25 <mroman> hm?
09:50:53 <mroman> http://codepad.org/uKvt80z5
09:51:53 <mroman> 5-3*2; is the same thing as 5 3 2 -. *.
09:54:04 <mroman> b_jonas: The compiler keeps a stack of operations to perform
09:54:17 <mroman> "." pops an operation from the stack
09:54:29 <mroman> ";" treats the stack as a list and executes all operations in order
09:54:30 <mroman> therefore
09:54:46 <mroman> + - * /; is +. -. *. /.
09:54:59 <mroman> whereas +-*/.... is /. *. -. +.
09:55:03 <vanila> that souns horribly painful
09:55:08 <vanila> and confusing
09:55:16 <mroman> +-*/ itself compiles to nothing
09:55:20 <mroman> since no operation is executed
09:57:48 <mroman> vanila: well you're not supposed to mix ; and . anyway
09:57:55 <mroman> it's for different programming styles
09:58:32 <mroman> you should use ";" if you prefer to push all data first, then carry out all operations
09:59:19 <mroman> and "." if you want a more not-so-stacky style of programming
10:02:12 <Jafet> Why does ; take the data from a stack but the operators from a queue?
10:03:08 <mroman> because :)
10:04:44 <mroman> there's also \
10:04:49 <mroman> which takes all operators from the stack
10:06:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41679&oldid=40647 * MrDetonia * (+117) Added link to PZAB interpreter in C GitHub page.
10:06:42 <mroman> Jafet, b_jonas: http://codepad.org/vhvjt6gK
10:06:57 <mroman> (@ is print btw.)
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10:10:04 <mroman> 5-3.*2. is also the same thing as - 5 3.*2. or 5 3 -. 2 *.
10:10:26 <mroman> I prefer the 5-3. *2. style
10:11:05 <mroman> 5-3.*2 is also the same as 5 3 2 *-;
10:11:27 <shachaf> zzo38: There are some Prismata puzzles if you're interested.
10:12:20 <shachaf> There's one called Countdown in the non-account demo.
10:12:26 <Jafet> Do they involve real time?
10:12:34 <mroman> essentially my "esolang" offers three programming styles.
10:12:42 <mroman> which can be mixed.
10:12:55 <shachaf> Jafet: am i missing a pun
10:13:37 <Jafet> Not that I'm aware of
10:15:07 <shachaf> It's not a real-time game.
10:15:32 <Jafet> Ok, I assumed it was.
10:17:21 <shachaf> It's a deterministic complete-information turn-based game. The puzzles are vaguely in the same category as chess puzzles or Magic: The Puzzlings, I guess.
10:24:03 <Jafet> mroman: given a program in a canonical "sane" syntax, how many ways can it can be permuted using the operators .;\
10:25:39 <Jafet> ; pops the entire operator queue, unfortunately, so its application to this seems limited
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10:33:18 <Jafet> Apparently g++ supports enough of C++11 threading now
10:35:06 <mroman> Jafet: every trailing . can be replaced by either \ and ;
10:35:20 <mroman> every sequence of trailing dots can be replaced by \
10:35:58 <Jafet> That's what it's defined as, probably
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10:39:19 <mroman> you could also write stuff like * - 3 2. 5.
10:39:37 <mroman> (which is (3-2)*5) )
10:39:50 <mroman> so I guess there are a lot of permutations possible
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10:43:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codename: CRAWL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41680&oldid=13517 * 79.108.181.93 * (+56)
10:48:28 <J_Arcane> this should not be a surprise to anyone here but it's an entertaining read: http://www.howtogeek.com/198622/heres-what-happens-when-you-install-the-top-10-download.com-apps/?PageSpeed=noscript
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11:03:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: thanks, I didn't know things had gotten so bad (I'm only using Windows for playing games...)
11:04:26 <J_Arcane> int-e: I sometimes think that part of the reason for the boom in web apps has a lot to do with the Windows native app environment having become so unrecoverably shite.
11:08:16 <int-e> could be
11:09:02 <zzo38> I usually don't install any program that requires an installer
11:09:06 <int-e> . o O ( Anybody remember the days when we had "programs"? )
11:10:08 <J_Arcane> I miss the MacOS.
11:10:11 <J_Arcane> The classic one.
11:10:32 <J_Arcane> Where there rarely ever *were* installers, and when they were, there was no where for them to hide files in the first place.
11:11:04 <J_Arcane> If I could still get work done in 2015 on MacOS 8.5, I'd have a PowerMac on my desk.
11:12:04 <zzo38> I like to write just command-line filter programs mostly; just port source-codes and compile it, or run the provided binary if it is working on your computer, and it work. It can be used with Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, etc whatever. If you want to use it remotely you can just use SSH
11:12:18 <zzo38> It is better way.
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11:12:35 <zzo38> Isn't it?
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11:13:00 <Jafet> I always thought that those ratings on download sites were dubious
11:14:38 <int-e> the ratings are dubious, but the top 10 list is ridiculous.
11:15:53 <int-e> (but I'm afraid the article isn't totally ridiculous. people will browse those lists and think to themselves, "oh that sounds useful"... )
11:16:29 <J_Arcane> top lists on most app providers are pretty easily gamed.
11:16:48 <J_Arcane> I'm pretty sure half the top apps on Windows Store even are complete nonsense.
11:17:18 <int-e> sure.
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11:19:33 <J_Arcane> Actually, at this point I'm not sure MS is even bothering with any curation of their app store. It's *starting* to dwindle down now, but for most of the last several months as many of half the top games on Windows Store were pirated ROMs wrapped in a half-working emulator.
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11:38:22 <J_Arcane> God, finding good screensavers ...
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11:40:22 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: what ratings? these ratings? http://www.xkcd.com/937/
11:40:39 <J_Arcane> :D
11:41:04 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: I mean that most of them don't seem to be rate-limited in any way, so they're pretty trivially botnetted, and seldom even checked for such.
11:41:37 <J_Arcane> I think Apple's app store is the only one I haven't seen apps that were clearly just flooded with spam "reviews" that existed to bump the average.
12:18:23 <mroman> hm
12:18:34 <mroman> > let f+ x x = x+x in f+ 3
12:18:36 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: x
12:18:47 <mroman> > let f x x = x+x in f 3
12:18:49 <lambdabot> Conflicting definitions for ‘x’
12:18:49 <lambdabot> Bound at: <interactive>:1:7
12:18:49 <lambdabot> <interactive>:1:9
12:19:03 <mroman> > let f+ x y = x+y in f 2 3
12:19:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: x
12:20:32 <boily> > let (+) = (*) in 2 + 3
12:20:33 <lambdabot> 6
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12:40:10 <Taneb> Ugh, my computer keeps changing from UK keyboard layout to US
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13:52:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41681&oldid=41677 * AndoDaan * (+2123) Wang B-machine to MNNBFSL outline
14:20:18 <J_Arcane> Well, that's refreshing already. A tutorial that actually admits Haskell has downsides. ;)
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15:08:03 <oerjan> @messages-
15:08:03 <lambdabot> int-e said 7h 55m 6s ago: please expand Gnfjnueihp for us.
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15:08:29 <oerjan> sheesh you mash the keyboard _once_ and everyone collapses in confusion.
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15:10:58 <oerjan> @tell int-e sheesh you mash the keyboard _once_ and everyone collapses in confusion. i mean, adu is correct.
15:10:58 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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15:11:50 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I have some problems with your description of that M:tG implementation of that cyclic tag machine, though probably fixable, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow#M:tG_implementation
15:12:02 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: I also fixed a few typos in the description that seemed to have an obvious fix
15:15:02 <int-e> oerjan: well the 'gn' was really unlucky if that's what you did
15:15:28 <oerjan> i may have typed that before mashing the rest.
15:17:35 <oerjan> `8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:17:36 <HackEgo> Don't count on it.
15:17:43 <int-e> oerjan: well then you have no reason to complain.
15:17:53 <oerjan> so HackEgo's version is not deterministic.
15:18:01 <oerjan> ^8-ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:18:06 <oerjan> ^8ball is the program cpu-bound?
15:18:06 <fungot> Yes.
15:18:39 <oerjan> int-e: well not _that_ reason.
15:18:56 <int-e> oerjan: that's what the phrase means
15:22:46 <J_Arcane> Neeeeat. There's copies of Mac Common Lisp on Macintosh Garden.
15:24:40 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: oh no. that sounds dangerous.
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15:50:34 <Jafet> Heh, ran out of memory trying to mmap a file.
15:54:39 <oerjan> if there only were somewhere it could store it on disk to save on memory
15:55:14 <oerjan> (by which i mean, i'm surprised it doesn't do that automatically?)
15:55:26 <Jafet> No, I think it ran out of memory creating page tables
15:55:31 <oerjan> huh
15:56:06 <oerjan> oh right your humongous OEIS search?
15:57:48 <oerjan> just swap out the page tables hth
15:59:10 <oerjan> theoretically that could be made to work...
16:00:12 <Jafet> Hmm
16:00:35 <vanila> helo everyone!
16:00:41 <oerjan> (in some system. no idea if any real ones support it.)
16:00:50 <Jafet> You can of course emulate it in software
16:01:08 <Jafet> (which is not a speed problem, because, after all, they were swapped out to disk)
16:01:08 <oerjan> and of course you'd need to protect some pages from being swapped.
16:02:43 <Jafet> I think x86 TLBs don't like it when you update page tables though
16:04:29 <oerjan> relevant pictures https://www.google.no/search?q=TLB&biw=1179&bih=615&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=30G1VICdKYG2UPKOgZAF&ved=0CCUQsAQ
16:06:10 <Jafet> *aside looks*
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16:23:37 <vanila> where could I get a bunch of good pure lambda calculus terms?
16:23:44 <vanila> big ones to benchmark evaluators etc
16:24:19 <Jafet> I only have trashy grungy lambda calculus terms
16:25:14 <Jafet> Just scott encode some things
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17:34:16 <J_Arcane> > let x ☭ xs = map (+lavg) xs where lavg = x `div` (length xs) in 10 ☭ [1..10] -- Distributive list operator for Haskell ;)
17:34:17 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11]
17:36:41 <Jafet> This regime looks a bit too strict for me.
17:38:30 <J_Arcane> :D
17:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> shouldn't a communist operator redistribute within the list
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18:26:28 <ais523> oh, on the subject of vaporware esolangs by ais523
18:26:35 <ais523> I started working on Underlambda again
18:27:09 <ais523> also I read the Ursala manual (Ursala is not a vaporware esolang by ais523, but an allegedly serious language by someone else) and actually think I understood what was going on this time
18:28:34 <vanila> woah I didn't know there was actually a manual
18:28:50 <ais523> how would anyone be able to write it without a manual?
18:29:58 <olsner> `? ursala
18:29:59 <HackEgo> ​~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=&ll;+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
18:30:18 <ais523> AFAICT, Ursala is what you get when you start from similar syntax goals as Cyclexa (which looks like line noise just as much as Ursala does), and then add a few dubious computer science opinions
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18:32:01 <ais523> (specifically: "static typing is evil, it makes much more sense to write a language which just assumes all bit patterns it sees are already of the type you claim they are", "currying-based languages are incapable of expressing /flip/", and "the main activity worth optimizing is extracting parts of structured data and forming new structured data out of them")
18:32:46 <olsner> ursala's data extraction thingies (forgot what they're called) reminded me of lenses
18:32:58 <ais523> they're called pointers/pseudopointers
18:33:13 <ais523> but really, the fundamental interesting concept here is what Ursala calls an address
18:33:46 <ais523> only it doesn't realise why it's important in the language itself which leaves the language a bit muddled (it's obvious (?) if you look at the generated VM bytecode though)
18:35:00 <ais523> the Ursala manual uses &alrNQPabh2fabt2RCNq as an example of code that Ursala is particularly good at; I reimplemented it in Underlambda (untested) and got '1~(((!('x'y)\xa'z_*)n1`)\y\z)e((A!)_)*I
18:35:10 <ais523> which is exactly twice as long, I couldn't golf it down further
18:35:31 <ais523> untested because I only realised that e was an important operation quite easily and none of my interps interprets it yet
18:37:21 <olsner> what's that "address" thing in ursala then?
18:37:40 <ais523> anyway, one thing that leaves me a bit relieved about Ursala is that the syntax is not intended to be readable or memorable
18:37:56 <ais523> the manual freely admits that you'll probably need to keep it open in order to pick appropriate operators and the like
18:38:17 <ais523> (most operators in Ursala do multiple different things depending on surrounding whitespace; also the precedence rules are non-transitive)
18:38:39 <ais523> and an "address" is basically a sequence of navigation commands through pairs
18:38:46 <ais523> "take the left of the right of the right of the left", like that
18:39:20 <ais523> and although Ursala talks about lists and pairs and jobs and sets, they're all implemented as pairs internally
18:39:44 <ais523> e.g. a list is a pair of its head and tail, Lisp-style
18:40:22 <olsner> ah, the [lrth]* string is the "address" and things like &address makes a "pointer" of it?
18:41:02 <ais523> olsner: OK, so this is where things start getting a little confusing
18:41:11 <olsner> those addresses are what made me think about lenses, I think
18:41:18 <ais523> a pointer is basically just a structure of addresses, specified in reverse-polish form
18:41:33 <ais523> so, e.g. &lrX is the pair (&l, &r) because X is a pair constructor
18:42:10 <ais523> this accounts for a relatively small subset of the long ~& nonsense you frequently see
18:42:49 <ais523> then, because the author of Ursala liked this syntax so much, they added in a bunch of other functions that aren't actually pointers, but using the same syntax (i.e. reverse-polish operating on pointers or pseudopointers), called a pseudopointer
18:43:07 <ais523> so at this point you have a reverse-polish DSL which uses every uppercase and lowercase letter of the alphabet
18:43:44 <ais523> and many of the commands are implemented identically (e.g. l and h), but are conceptually different and so have different names
18:46:26 <olsner> hmm, but something like &lr is (iirc) "left of the right" (or the other way around) - how would you extend &lrX to make a pair of e.g. (&lr, &rl) instead?
18:51:25 <olsner> interesting twist that you start with inscrutable code, then to figure out what it does you compile it and dump the VM's internal representation which is human readable
18:54:35 <olsner> (well, or decompile it into human readable form, not sure how much of a straight dump it is)
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19:36:17 <J_Arcane> https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2015/01/hiring-software-engineer?preview=true
20:11:25 <zzo38> Do you like some of my new kind of keyword abilities for Magic: the Gathering?
20:11:50 <shachaf> Which new kind of keybard abilities?
20:12:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, there are new keyword abilities? apart from plainstrample?
20:12:53 <zzo38> You can see it in the file http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt (search for "Keyword abilities:")
20:13:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I added some more now.
20:13:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, is there a Changes file?
20:13:38 <zzo38> No, there is no changes file, I just add to the file I already have (and make other changes as necessary, sometimes)
20:13:59 <b_jonas> maybe I should save it then so I can diff
20:14:14 <zzo38> You can do that if you want to
20:17:23 <b_jonas> also, people, if you understand how these crazy automaton that are turing complete but require exponential time work, try answering http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/21525/8067 Conjecture about two counters automata
20:24:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: for the Confusion keyword, how does the triggered ability work if more than one creature blocks or is blocked by a creature?
20:26:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, as written, it seems that the triggered ability puts counters too late, so those counters will be useful only next combat (unless there's double strike involved)
20:26:11 <b_jonas> is that deliberate?
20:27:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for the covering keyword, I don't understand how that works
20:27:28 <zzo38> Yes it is supposed to put them only until the next combat or strike
20:27:56 <zzo38> Also I think the "switchable" keyword maybe it could have a better name than "switchable"?
20:32:25 <zzo38> How can I clarify the covering keyword?
20:32:41 <zzo38> I added one more sentence but I am not sure it clarifies it.
20:34:25 <zzo38> One which I previously missed; it says: Creatures with covering are also required to come in the damage assignment order before creatures without covering.
20:35:49 <AndoDaan> zzo38, you wrote the wiki entry on Wang B-machines, right?
20:37:24 <zzo38> AndoDaan: Do you mean esolang wiki? I added a paragraph to the "Wang program" article.
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21:08:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, that makes covering clearer, thanks
21:13:22 <b_jonas> oh, he's gone
21:13:43 <b_jonas> covering seems to be a bit similar to banding, at least on a potentially blocking creature
21:19:58 <pikhq> ais523: I'm glad that they got a round two of Pokemon Plays Twitch going with your script.
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22:02:23 <newsham> whoa! http://www.pagetable.com/?p=774
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23:19:07 <oerjan> ^echo êcho
23:19:07 <fungot> êcho êcho
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23:28:56 <Taneb> Good evening
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23:30:21 <oerjan> good eveneb
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←2015-01-12 2015-01-13 2015-01-14→ ↑2015 ↑all