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01:27:26 <lambdabot> Got the code? Got the info? Then we've got the help for you!
01:29:37 * int-e has decided that MPTC + fundep is probably not enough to exploit the Typeable hole. The problem is that while fundeps express injectivity, the compiler still refuses to deduce b ~ b' from (Foo a b, Foo a b') with class Foo a b | a -> b.
01:31:41 <shachaf> int-e: Ah, I've run into that before.
01:32:42 <shachaf> And I guess Leibniz equality certainly isn't enough for this.
01:34:48 <shachaf> I wonder whether GHC should do the optimization where it doesn't check the tag for a GADT where only a single summand is possible.
01:35:04 <int-e> oerjan: your exploit code becomes more readable if one abbreviates the proxies: type A = Proxy (Proxy :: * -> *); type B = Proxy (Proxy :: (* -> *) -> *)
01:35:21 <shachaf> Yes, I've been doing that.
01:35:39 <shachaf> Well, I called them PT and P'T before, but I also switched to PX and PY for the non-DataKinds version.
01:36:22 <int-e> and rather than 'munge' I added {-# NOINLINE ecast #-}
01:36:56 <shachaf> Yes, that was discussed above.
01:37:12 <shachaf> oerjan was trying to avoid pragmas for some reason.
01:37:31 <shachaf> Do you think it's possible without kind signatures?
01:38:00 <shachaf> Not that it matters if only TypeFamilies lets you do it.
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02:09:56 <oerjan> <int-e> oh but why... <-- i was just trying to avoid any extra things that might be easily disabled.
02:10:31 <oerjan> and pragmas seem like something you might sometimes want to disable for safety
02:10:58 <AndoDaan> I've finally managed to implement BCT in MNNBFSL, I think.
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02:47:35 <lambdabot> (Contravariant f, Functor f) => f a -> f b
02:48:27 <oerjan> > GHC.Exts.coerce 'a' :: Identity Char
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03:33:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> It is amazing how many songs it is possible to sing to the tune of House of the Rising Sun <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_metre
03:36:01 <oerjan> ...that word doesn't mean what i thought it meant. :(
03:36:50 <shachaf> what did you think it meant twh
03:36:53 <Lilax> What does it mean?
03:37:03 <oerjan> amazing grace has to be the most vanilla melody _ever_, it's common metre _and_ pentatonal
03:38:07 <oerjan> oh wait it _does_ mean that
03:38:26 <oerjan> the google extracts were misleading
03:38:52 <shachaf> poignant means appropriate?
03:39:13 <oerjan> 3rd meaning on wiktionary
03:39:24 <oerjan> close enough to fit how i used it, anyway
03:39:51 <Lilax> so its emotionally Appropriate?
03:40:18 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm not sure those two meanings fit together like that
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03:40:49 <Lilax> Its better than emotionally inappropriate.
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05:03:25 <zzo38> I want to optimize .XM file by making it automatically decide how to put patterns
05:04:07 <vanila> is there a quick overview of xm format?
05:04:16 <vanila> so i can think about compressing them
05:04:37 <zzo38> You can find a document on my gopher server, as well as in other places
05:04:53 <vanila> can patterns contain patters
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05:05:48 <zzo38> A pattern is a list of rows (note events), and the song consists of the list of patterns to play; it is possible to repeat a pattern
05:08:09 <zzo38> I intend first it can unroll all loops, dumping it into memory without patterns and just rows, and figuring out the global loop point, and then performing optimization to compress the tables.
05:11:41 <vanila> maybe it could be possible to look for lots of repititions of a small length, then increase its size and see how many repitions drop off
05:11:54 <vanila> that way you can make a trade-off, choosing a good length of pattern to match
05:14:05 <zzo38> The number of patterns, number of rows in each pattern, and number of items in the pattern order table, are all limited to 256.
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05:26:42 <zzo38> I can know how to unroll all loops and that stuff, but then the rest I don't know much about it
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05:53:23 <Lilax> I have no idea what I'm doing
05:54:09 <Lilax> wrong ones I think
05:54:12 <oerjan> e and x are of the Expr type, not ordinary numbers
05:54:34 <oerjan> and i think ^ treats x as if it were infinite
05:54:53 <Lilax> its supposed to square it
05:55:43 <oerjan> and no matter how many times you divide it by 2, it never compares equal to 0
05:55:57 <oerjan> so the recursion never stops
05:56:10 <lambdabot> [x,x `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2 `div` 2,x `div` 2 `div` 2 `...
05:56:21 <oerjan> > map (==0) $ iterate (`div` 2) x
05:56:23 <lambdabot> [False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fal...
05:57:23 <oerjan> the Expr values are mainly for showing expressions in symbolic form, they support little else
05:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41696&oldid=41521 * AndoDaan * (+1665) BCT interpreter in MNNBFSL
05:57:49 <lambdabot> [x,2 `div` x,2 `div` (2 `div` x),2 `div` (2 `div` (2 `div` x)),2 `div` (2 `d...
05:58:03 <Lilax> 4b+e^2)\frac{dx}{dy}(6*7)+8=0
05:58:20 <Lilax> is what I'm trying to fix
05:58:45 <oerjan> except i think something is missing there
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05:59:40 <Lilax> probably I was day dreaming a bit in class
06:00:15 <oerjan> i mean, you're missing something at the beginning at least
06:00:43 <Lilax> > iterate (3 `div`) e
06:00:44 <lambdabot> [e,3 `div` e,3 `div` (3 `div` e),3 `div` (3 `div` (3 `div` e)),3 `div` (3 `d...
06:01:02 <Lilax> yes probably let me get my notes
06:04:47 <Lilax> back ok so its a differntial equation
06:05:09 <Lilax> y(2x4+y)\frac{dy}{dx}=(1−4xy2)x2 and the last one was an older one from memory I think
06:06:44 <Lilax> http://quicklatex.com/cache3/ql_35ea3396669a170a74f119670e137b23_l3.png
06:07:26 <oerjan> i have a hunch you're missing superscripts
06:07:30 <Lilax> oh well I see what's wrong God dammit, teachers
06:08:28 <oerjan> because putting numbers after variables is very unusual
06:08:40 <oerjan> unless they're sub- or superscripted
06:08:56 <Lilax> Ill ask my teacher tmrow
06:09:17 <Lilax> I have weekend school / tutoring
06:09:41 <oerjan> i find it weird that it has \frac but is missing the ^s for superscript
06:10:29 <Lilax> where should the ^s be placed?
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06:10:40 <oerjan> between the variables and the following numbers
06:11:18 <oerjan> i assume there are no multi-digit numbers, otherwise you would need {} brackets too
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06:13:05 * oerjan has forgotten most of the diff eq stuff
06:13:42 <Lilax> Anyways thanks oerjan for some help
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06:27:13 <zzo38> Now I make up "Healing Deal" card: You gain 12 life. Remove all counters from all players. Target opponent draws 4 cards, and then chooses 4 cards from your graveyard and shuffles them into your library. If you do not have that many cards in your graveyard, all of them are shuffled into your library. That opponent may untap a permanent of his choice; if he doesn't, he may gain 2 life.
06:28:01 <shachaf> What counters can a player have other than poison?
06:29:04 <shachaf> You should say "his or her" the way MtG cards do.
06:30:16 <zzo38> I want to abbreviate it.
06:30:38 <shachaf> You should abbreviate with e.g. "their" rather than his.
06:31:01 <glguy> Take a stand and go with "it"
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06:50:30 <zzo38> I also made up a card "Dimir Ciphermage" which can have +1/+1 for each card encoded on it.
06:58:18 <elliott> glguy: oerjan: can we not do that in response to sincere requests?
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07:43:21 <Lilax|sleep> I have to shorten the server msg I get for calling for server/port info
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07:43:58 <Lilax> it like shows how many errors and stuff I have plus server load and how many bytes pass through
08:01:32 <Lilax> is it bad if I force add nicks that are past the nick limit
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08:59:06 <int-e> I have no idea what to do with that toy VPS (except marvel at how laggy it is)... http://104.167.104.168/
08:59:25 <vanila> int-e, can you run xen microkernels like mirage?
08:59:54 <int-e> elliott: well I just logged in and it took seconds! to get a shell.
09:00:08 <elliott> int-e: maybe just try and use 100% CPU/network/disk 24/7 to help sabotage their business model
09:00:16 <int-e> (this has not happened on the lambdabot one)
09:00:18 <elliott> int-e: hmm, are you sure that wasn't because of reverse DNS lookups or whatever
09:00:25 <elliott> ssh does that without "UseDNS no"
09:00:31 <int-e> elliott: hmm, let me check
09:03:29 <int-e> elliott: I guess that was part of it.
09:06:01 <int-e> but mostly I think a lot of stuff was swapped out
09:11:09 <elliott> can xen swap VM memory like that?
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09:22:47 <int-e> vanila: I don't think we've reached the point where one can nest hypervisors yet, have we?
09:23:40 <elliott> nested virtualisation is a thing, but mirage creates machines to run on xen, not hypervisors
09:23:44 <vanila> i was asking because i have agood one you could run
09:23:56 <elliott> if cloudatcost lets you upload, like, your own kernel thing, you should maybe be able to do it
09:24:04 <elliott> a lot of xen providers don't allow that though
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09:29:10 <int-e> uploading kernels works fine. with good timing I can evel select from the grub boot menu if I give that enough time... but it's already running under a hypervisor (a vmware one judging by the boot BIOS splash) so a Xen kernel shouldn't work. (Oh there are people crazy enough to do such things. "HVX employs a technology called Binary Translation ..." err, right. that would work.)
09:29:39 <int-e> s/with good timing I can eve// (didn't delete as much as I wanted)
09:30:41 <elliott> int-e: to be clear: by "xen kernel" here, I mean that mirage kernels run as guests on top of a xen hypervisor (i.e., they are domUs)
09:31:08 <elliott> mirage is not itself a hypervisor, just a toolkit to write OSes that only run under the Xen hypervisor (paravirtualised IO only, etc.)
09:31:15 <elliott> but yeah, vmware means no chance
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09:34:43 <elliott> int-e: if you'd ever like the VPS taken out of your hands I can handle the burden :p
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09:38:21 <int-e> (and give up my canadian IP? no way!)
09:38:56 <int-e> honestly, if it's good for nothing it might still be handy as a proxy.
09:39:05 <elliott> you should run a tor relay on it
09:39:12 <elliott> actually that's kind of a great use
09:39:29 <elliott> the connection is probably fine for it, downtime doesn't matter too much
09:40:01 <int-e> and with some luck I'll get to test how those indemnification clauses work out overseas.
09:40:56 <elliott> that would be for tor exit nodes
09:41:18 <elliott> tor _relays_ won't even get you angry emails, I don't think -- you're never going to be contacting anything but other tor nodes
09:41:18 <int-e> ah whatever. it's an idea all right
09:41:27 <elliott> and you never see any unencrypted content
09:48:45 <int-e> 8. Other Prohibited Activities "Maintaining a relay service open to the general public"
09:49:05 <int-e> I cannot even run an IRC server!
09:49:29 <elliott> don't worry, the general public mostly can't use IRC
09:50:35 <vanila> oh that means you cant run a web server either?
09:50:47 <elliott> depends what counts as a "relay"
09:50:56 <int-e> Some people host a Tor exit node on this provider. They don't seem to properly monitor their nodes.
09:51:03 <elliott> but it's probably meant to ban proxies, not servers in general
09:52:38 <int-e> It's malleable, as usual with ToS agreements.
09:54:34 <int-e> I use them for Tor Relays. Their network abuse management is non-existent.
09:55:04 <int-e> I'm selecting a line by double-clicking, it decides to prepend a newline.
09:55:15 <int-e> THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
09:55:39 <int-e> sorry, calm again.
09:55:53 <Lilax> I'm confused /it tooks seconds to get a shell/ seconds isn't that long?!
09:56:14 <Lilax> also I was way back in the conversation as I can see now
09:56:25 <Lilax> I hate when things don't load
09:57:18 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm pretty sure that was the point
09:57:55 <oerjan> your sentence is ambiguous, you should try commas
09:58:09 <elliott> it takes <1s to start an ssh shell on my server here
09:58:20 <elliott> oerjan: the /.../ was a quote
09:58:25 <Lilax> is that long for you?
09:58:45 <elliott> 1s to open a shell is fine. 5s wouldn't be. I open new terminals and log into my server frequently
09:58:50 <oerjan> elliott: yes but i interpreted the rest as "seconds, isn't that long"
09:58:54 <elliott> there's no reason for it to be slow, anyway
09:59:04 <Lilax> Well elliott 5s isn't that slow
09:59:07 <oerjan> because i got confused by lack of a comma after the quote
09:59:26 <Lilax> I guess I'm never used to fast stuff
09:59:30 <int-e> Lilax: yes it is long. this is just negotiation an ssh connection and displaying a prompt.
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09:59:46 <Lilax> I have a lot of weight on my server
10:00:10 <Jafet> Just today I took twenty minutes to log into a machine. Turns out it was thrashing
10:00:17 <int-e> I don't. It's all those other people running their servers on the same host ;-)
10:00:20 <Lilax> so whenever I use a school computer I'm like WHAT?! this is so fast /o/ _|__|_
10:01:02 <elliott> what OS does your server run on
10:01:04 <int-e> Lilax: Oh and don't get me wrong, that wasn't a complaint.
10:01:25 <int-e> Lilax: I didn't expect any better from that provider. :)
10:01:35 <Jafet> (Also, I learned that some of ubuntu's login scripts are written in python)
10:02:01 <int-e> Okay. I'm running 7.1. ;-)
10:02:05 <Lilax> I thought you were reffering to my schools server, elliott
10:02:23 <int-e> (Except I guess you mean Windows and I mean Debian)
10:02:37 <elliott> I meant your server that has a lot of weight on it
10:03:10 <elliott> also I guess you mean Windows Server 2012 R2, but yeah
10:03:50 <Lilax> Yeah the weight comes from it being connected to a couple chat servers
10:04:33 <Lilax> No but elliott I run VirtualBox on my server and Void Linux on my personal
10:04:47 <elliott> what OS is virtualbox running on?
10:04:49 <elliott> and what OS is running inside it?
10:04:49 <int-e> elliott: did you ever identify Windows 95 as MS-DOS 7.0?
10:05:21 <int-e> (you may be too young, I forgot)
10:05:27 <Lilax> Oh well Then you should have stated that
10:05:57 <Lilax> Ye so I wasn't mistaken maybe?
10:06:23 <elliott> int-e: I think I went windows 3.11 -> windows 98 -> windows Me or something.
10:06:32 <elliott> (windows 3.11 in 1998-ish)
10:06:50 <elliott> virtualbox lets you run an OS on top of another OS... what are the two OSes in question?
10:07:04 <Lilax> ubuntu and windows
10:07:09 <elliott> int-e: I know of the windows-only MS DOS versions though
10:07:12 <int-e> elliott: ok, Windows 98 was MS-DOS 8.0 for its DOS part.
10:07:31 <int-e> (but I skipped that one)
10:07:49 <elliott> windows me was so great, I used it until like 2006 or something
10:07:56 <elliott> by great I mean intolerably awful
10:08:10 <Lilax> My first computer was windows XP
10:08:31 <int-e> something like msdos 5.5 msdos 6.0 win 3.0 win 3.11 win 95 win XP, win 7.
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10:08:43 <Lilax> And that's what i had till i got angry as all hell and stopped using it
10:09:12 <int-e> (and I've only used the latter 2 for playing games)
10:09:28 <int-e> because I have no idea how people get any work done with windows
10:10:01 <Lilax> Well, you see int-e.. They don't.
10:11:41 <Lilax> int-e: if I'm correct those are some pretty old OS
10:14:42 <elliott> windows 7 is "only" five and a half years old
10:15:35 <int-e> I'm buying Windows with new computers, and this one is 4 years old now.
10:15:37 <Lilax> I was 10 yr 5 months when 7 came out?
10:16:06 <elliott> oh man, 16 year olds were born in 1999 these days?
10:16:23 <int-e> (Windows 8 had just came out, I think, and it was obviously crap)
10:16:26 <Lilax> Although my relative view of time is skewed
10:16:33 <elliott> you should have seen 1995, it was wild
10:16:45 <int-e> elliott: relax, most of them were born in 1998 :P
10:17:12 <elliott> int-e: but by the end of the year... :(
10:17:22 <elliott> really 2000 is when it starts scaring me
10:17:31 <Lilax> Its gonna be weird We are gonna be in the 20's again
10:17:35 <int-e> elliott: tick. tock. tick. tock.
10:17:42 <elliott> I'm old and grumpy already
10:17:54 <int-e> elliott: welcome to our world :P
10:18:01 <Lilax> elliott: 65 more years of life?
10:18:08 <Lilax> depending on health
10:18:20 <oerjan> <Lilax> Although my relative view of time is skewed <-- hey so was einstein's!
10:18:24 <elliott> to be honest I've probably become less old and grumpy over the past few years
10:18:58 <elliott> feels like a lot of teenagers get really crotchety and cynical for a while
10:19:39 -!- int-e has set topic: Young and cheery | The horror of fungot | but often spelld. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
10:19:59 <fungot> still here? still here?
10:20:20 <Lilax> If you want I can optimize how long you might live?
10:20:28 <Lilax> Although that morbid
10:20:48 <elliott> optimising how long I live doesn't sound morbid, though maybe you mean something different by that :p
10:20:50 <int-e> Lilax: minimize, you mean? that's brutal.
10:21:15 <Lilax> how old are you int-e
10:21:53 <oerjan> i got int-e's reference
10:22:12 <oerjan> that's probably for the best hth
10:22:30 <int-e> it's a solution for the optimization problem you posed.
10:22:37 <int-e> google can tell you all the rest. don't.
10:22:39 <Lilax> the average human life span is 1-85+
10:22:57 <Lilax> and those rare cases of 100+
10:23:02 <oerjan> Lilax: that's not how averages work hth
10:23:19 <Lilax> I'm always confused oerjan
10:23:54 <Lilax> Mental health issues.
10:24:27 <Lilax> if it helps, you could put age years young
10:24:28 <int-e> One of the big disappointments about growing up is that the confusion doesn't go away, and life doesn't become simple.
10:24:46 <Lilax> eg; I'm 98 years young
10:24:58 <Lilax> because old sounds to mean
10:25:38 <b_jonas> why isn't there a sorcery that simply untaps all creatures?
10:25:58 <Lilax> Because magic b_jonas.
10:28:18 <b_jonas> such a card could work in white or blue
10:29:56 <b_jonas> I was also wondering why there wasn't an enchantment with just "Creatures attack each turn if able." , similar to Curse of the Nightly Hunt.
10:30:40 <Lilax> What are you even talking about?
10:31:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I still can't download the Khans set faq, is that an error on my side?
10:32:39 <b_jonas> I was looking at the Fate Reforged release notes (that's apparently what they call a set faq now), and have seen that it talks about a card with a copy permanent effect but doesn't bother to mention how copying a face down card works. I was wondering if it's at least mentioned in the Khans faq, for Khans also has such a card.
10:33:21 <oerjan> specifically, magic the gathering.
10:33:54 <Lilax> Oh my grandfather plays that
10:34:33 <Taneb> Speaking of, I was going to go to a Magic prerelease today
10:34:38 <b_jonas> there are grandfathers playing magic? isn't it for 13 years and older only?
10:34:43 <Taneb> But I'm not very good at it and I am nervous
10:34:45 <int-e> b_jonas: at least there's an "Untap all creatures you control." (Mobilize)
10:34:48 <Taneb> Well, more anxious
10:35:30 <Taneb> I've been playing Magic for less than a week
10:35:30 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but I specifically want to untap my opponent's creatures
10:35:43 <vanila> does nayone havea converter from lambda calculus to de bruijn in scheme
10:35:49 <Taneb> Wise people of the channel please advise
10:36:12 <b_jonas> int-e: so I can Taunting Elf + Gaze of the Gorgon them
10:36:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm pretty sure most grandfathers are older than 13 hth
10:36:15 <int-e> b_jonas: there's also this fun one "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, untap all creatures." (Intruder alert)
10:36:27 <shachaf> Taneb: i've never been to a mtg prerelease but as i understand it it's among the gentler of official events, specifically intended to be welcoming to new players
10:36:34 <Lilax> explain what a ssl is
10:36:50 <int-e> b_jonas: (that's only half the effect, the other half is that creatures don't untap during the untap step)
10:36:52 <b_jonas> Taneb: in that case, enjoy it, and don't worry about your performance. a pre-release is supposed to be a friendly event.
10:37:02 <b_jonas> Taneb: is it a sealed draft?
10:37:10 <shachaf> b_jonas: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/release-notes-2014-09-18 ?
10:37:11 <Taneb> b_jonas, I do not know what that is
10:37:20 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, Intruder Alarm. that card is bah-roken.
10:37:35 <int-e> b_jonas: It looks so innocent ;-)
10:37:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: which continent is it on?
10:37:45 <Taneb> b_jonas, Europe???
10:37:52 <shachaf> presumably it's on an island
10:38:19 <b_jonas> Mobilize? wtf... oh, from Portal. No, there's one outsite portal too: To Arms!
10:38:24 <shachaf> so make sure to get lots of blue cards
10:38:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I mean, how much damage could a piece of cardboard and some colorful ink do?!
10:39:03 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, back then it didn't even have hologram stickers on it like real money
10:39:13 <shachaf> As I remember it, if you copy a face-down card, you get a face-up 2/2 colorless creature with no creature types etc.
10:39:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I know. but why isn't that mentioned in the set faq, for a card that has a non-optional copy permanent effect?
10:41:10 -!- TieSoul_ has changed nick to TieSoul.
10:41:35 <shachaf> I've barely played with KTK.
10:41:51 <shachaf> I'm not sure how that interacts with manifest.
10:42:11 <shachaf> I guess I'll read the definition of manifest when it's released.
10:42:34 <shachaf> Oh, that's in the release notes you just mentioned.
10:43:23 <shachaf> Hmm, so do copy effects copy the fact that a permanent is manifested?
10:44:51 <shachaf> It looks like a permanent stops being manifested when it's turned face up, but a copy effect would never turn it face up.
10:45:12 <shachaf> So maybe if you copied a manifested permanent, and then turned the copy face down, it would be manifested.
10:45:33 <shachaf> Hmm, but maybe the copy effect stops anyway when you turn it face down?
10:46:00 <Lilax> 300+ms is not what I expected from my servers preformance
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10:47:51 <shachaf> OK, apparently turning a Clone face-down doesn't stop the copy effect.
10:48:11 <shachaf> But I would guess that "being manifested" isn't copied.
10:48:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: the update bulletin is out as well
10:49:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: and yes, they copy a 2/2 vanilla creature, but no, the copy will not be manifested or face down, it's only its characteristics that are changed to similar ones
10:50:00 <shachaf> I know it doesn't copy the face that it's face-down, but I wasn't sure about being manifested.
10:50:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: copying _to_ a face down permanent is different, but that doesn't come up this set becaue there are no cards like Cytoshape that can do that
10:50:42 <shachaf> Hmm, which situation are you imagining there?
10:53:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: just simply using Flamerush Rider or Clever Impersonator and targetting a face down creature
10:55:10 <shachaf> Would it copy "manifested" or not? If not, what if a card was manifested and then you made it a copy of something else, would it keep manifested?
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10:58:47 <b_jonas> shachaf: no. use Cytoshape to make a face down morph card (say a Scornful Egoist) a copy of an elephant. then, I think (but I'm not sure) while the wizard is face down, it's still a 2/2 colorless creature, and when it's face up, it's a 3/3 elephant.
10:59:31 <int-e> Oh, Friday's xkcd was great.
11:00:06 <oerjan> friday's GG was basically trolling
11:00:41 <int-e> oerjan: let's see if they can stretch this through the whole next week, shall we?
11:01:01 <oerjan> no, they promised monday would be back to normal
11:01:01 <shachaf> b_jonas: Can you turn it face up for the morph cost when it's a face-down elephant?
11:01:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: hmm, good question. probably not
11:01:28 <vanila> How to get into girl genius?
11:02:06 <shachaf> b_jonas: What if I manifest a sorcery card and then make it a copy of a Scornful Egotist?
11:02:13 <shachaf> Can I turn it face-up for {U}?
11:02:53 <shachaf> "A face-down permanent represented by an instant or sorcery card can't be turned face up."
11:03:04 <shachaf> Same question with s/sorcery/land/, then.
11:03:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe you can because it's not a sorcery if it's a copy of the wizard creature
11:03:35 <int-e> oerjan: oh so they did, what happened to Gikka then? And are you sure they mean *next* Monday?)
11:03:44 <shachaf> But it's still "represented by a sorcery card", right?
11:04:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: you'll need someone who knows the rules more than me
11:05:04 <int-e> oerjan: or perhaps they'll present the chapter title page and then continue their foolery on Wednesday ;)
11:05:09 <Lilax> is why I don't play with my grandfather
11:05:16 <JesseH> Did someone say sorcery? Oh a game
11:05:34 <JesseH> I'm actively seeking occultists to interview
11:05:34 <int-e> oerjan: I mean, while they're still on a roll trolling.
11:05:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: this is a good question, I might ask it on a forum
11:06:04 <int-e> JesseH: you're in the wrong place :P
11:06:23 <oerjan> int-e: i guess they dropped gkika, she didn't really show her dress much in the original play, except when quilted...
11:06:30 <Lilax> JesseH: if you are seekinh occultists
11:06:39 <shachaf> I had various related questions.
11:06:42 <int-e> jesseh: Here we're only interested in sorceries that go on a stack. That makes is computer sciencey :P
11:06:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: especially as Cytoshape wears off at end of turn
11:06:51 <JesseH> int-e, I know! I'm in other channels on the weird networks. I'm wanting to create an occult inspired esolang.
11:06:52 <b_jonas> but I'll have to read the setfaq first
11:07:01 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure "represented by a sorcery card" is unambiguous.
11:07:10 <b_jonas> it might already answer this
11:07:11 <Lilax> An occult inspired esolang?
11:07:25 <JesseH> Might just do harry potter lang
11:07:28 <Lilax> Just use Demon tongue chars
11:07:35 <shachaf> If I manifest a creature card with a high cost, and then make it a copy of a creature with a low cost, can I turn it face-up for the low cost?
11:08:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, I'd just blink it instead if I wanted to cheat on costs
11:08:29 <shachaf> If I have a face-down Morph card, and I make it a copy of a card that I manifested, am I able to manifest it?
11:08:29 <oerjan> vanila: girl genius is an epic plot story so you really have to start at the beginning.
11:08:35 <shachaf> I guess you already answered that last one with a no.
11:08:37 <Lilax> Isn't there a card deck in that game that lets you get.infinite mana
11:08:54 <JesseH> avadra x is kedavra b00000001
11:09:29 <b_jonas> I admit I don't really understand how copy permanent effects work
11:10:11 <Lilax> we are summoning Satan
11:10:21 <b_jonas> and I'm not sure I like manifest because it makes you skip beneficial etb triggers or replaced abilities like that of Order of the Stars
11:10:26 <int-e> I think b_jonas is lost in layers (I would be, too, if I were to consider them.)
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11:10:47 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, the copy rules are sort of ambiguously written and strange
11:10:49 <Lilax> I know how to solve this card game
11:11:04 <Lilax> and walk out of room
11:11:11 <int-e> Lilax: that will not affect the tokens (if made of steel)
11:11:13 <b_jonas> int-e: but sadly it's getting harder and harder to ignore them because wotc keeps printing lots of copy permanent effects at low rarities these last five years
11:11:41 <b_jonas> int-e: no, you're definitely not allowed to use coins to repreesnt tokens or counters or anything in game
11:11:42 <Lilax> Ugh every where I go its just this game
11:11:56 <int-e> b_jonas: metal cubes
11:12:18 <int-e> b_jonas: and what? really?
11:13:29 <b_jonas> int-e: per tournament rules, because they're worried the coins can cause confusion with authorities thinking you're playing unauthorized gambling games for money.
11:13:33 <Lilax> I'm making fork bombs now
11:13:40 <b_jonas> int-e: so you're not allowed to use money.
11:13:53 <int-e> b_jonas: right. makes no sense. makes sense. I dunno.
11:13:58 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, it does make sense
11:14:14 <b_jonas> it's a bit unfortunate, but still
11:14:16 <int-e> b_jonas: not really :P
11:14:50 <b_jonas> that said, I do use coins in casual play, as well as dice and small pieces of cardboard
11:14:55 <int-e> b_jonas: but it's the context, where not playing for money may look like you actually may be playing for money.
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11:15:13 <Lilax> atleast its active in here...
11:15:26 <int-e> b_jonas: (I guess in a tournament you also want to prevent things like "resign and I'll gift you all my precious tokens")
11:15:37 <Lilax> http://i.imgur.com/JaZLhYX.jpg
11:16:44 <Lilax> oh my god to what?
11:17:16 <int-e> the world-embracing, world-devouring cat
11:17:20 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, bribing is definitely not allowed
11:18:23 <Lilax> Evil king chuckle fish
11:18:58 <Lilax> Do any of you have pets?
11:19:36 <int-e> do spiders weaving their nets in various corners count?
11:20:13 <oerjan> AndoDaan: are you saying india is fucked
11:20:32 <int-e> oerjan: he didn't have to, hth
11:21:05 <elliott> we have different definitions of tiny
11:21:06 <Lilax> AndoDaan: dont ruin the kitty picture
11:21:08 <AndoDaan> Neuter your pets, ppl! I can't stress that enough.
11:21:33 <elliott> I can't believe we're talking about this.
11:21:48 <AndoDaan> THey still have outie like genitals when excited though.
11:22:02 <Lilax> I just wanted to show a cute kitty picture!
11:22:14 <Lilax> do you know this AndoDaan
11:22:37 <Lilax> how does he know this
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11:22:55 <AndoDaan> I mean... we've all been curious.
11:23:02 <Lilax> its not common knowledge
11:23:05 <int-e> Lilax: Sorry. There's a maximum size for cute cats, and this picture exceeds that by several orders of magnitude.
11:23:24 -!- elliott has set topic: ANYTHING BUT CAT DICKS | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
11:23:41 <Lilax> AndoDaan: I do not not know what to say to that comment
11:23:43 <int-e> elliott: rub it in, will you...
11:23:49 <Lilax> cat dicks have barbs
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11:24:11 <oerjan> elliott: there is no escape. wait where did int-e go.
11:24:11 <AndoDaan> Uhm. oerjan, or anyone, is there anykind of... type of program that would send a BCT or CT or Tag system interpreter through it's pacess?
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11:24:56 <Lilax> I'm still curious about AndoDaans knowledge but ill leave this alone
11:24:57 <oerjan> hm alas i've been mainly converting _from_ BCT
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11:25:30 <elliott> discrete calculus is a (cute) thing
11:25:58 <Lilax> AndoDaan: you are a tad bit creepy /no offense/
11:26:44 <elliott> sadly the only secrets on offer today appear to be about magic the gathering or feline genitalia
11:26:44 <AndoDaan> From BCT to...? I can't imagine trying to actually programming in it.
11:26:58 <HackEgo> OneRatShort: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:27:38 <Jafet> How many paces do you need a BCT interpreter sent through
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11:27:59 <oerjan> AndoDaan: well BCT is known to be turing complete, so converting _from_ it is a good way to show other languages TC. you don't have to actually know how to program BCT for it...
11:28:08 <AndoDaan> I've only tested it with the Collatz example from the wiki.
11:28:59 <oerjan> the thing is, BCT doesn't really have output, so the incentive for actually programming in it is low.
11:29:04 <Jafet> As in, throw a dart, write down the number you got in binary and chances are that it's a nonterminating BCT program
11:29:09 <Lilax> Why can't we be normal
11:31:08 <AndoDaan> Hmm. Would all useful BCT programs follow the 1=11 0=10 ;=0 conversion from a CT program?
11:31:34 <oerjan> Lilax: normal is just a specific kind of broken that people for some reason pretend to prefer hth
11:31:41 <b_jonas> no easy way to give all creatures vigilance either, without side effects. (Synchronous Sliver plus Shields of Velis Vel works in theory.)
11:32:07 <Lilax> please don't give me facts about cats
11:32:49 <b_jonas> ok, so is there an instant or something that just stops creatures of my opponent from attacking this turn _without_ attacking?
11:33:03 <b_jonas> a Fog usually does the trick, but not if I already have the Taunting Elf in play
11:33:24 <Lilax> I want to set the topic >_>
11:33:32 <Lilax> but this is a lot of pressure
11:34:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Magic Channel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
11:34:21 <oerjan> now accurate and shouldn't confuse _anyone_ hth
11:34:30 <Lilax> now its even more pressure
11:34:51 <b_jonas> um, if it bothers you, we can go to another channel
11:34:57 <Lilax> a language that's just +'s and /'s
11:35:05 <Lilax> no its not bothering me!
11:35:09 <b_jonas> is there like an instant with "Detain all creatures."?
11:35:25 <oerjan> Lilax: try just \ and / and you've got a nice subset of ///
11:35:44 <Lilax> Wow I am the definition of a modest liar
11:36:36 <Lilax> = x + = s / = / + / = n
11:36:54 <Lilax> it looks very pristine
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11:37:14 <Lilax> I should make useless stuff again, lol
11:37:27 <b_jonas> I'm the very model of the modern EDH general
11:37:45 <oerjan> AndoDaan: well the only way to get a BCT program that doesn't come from a CT program is to have an alignment mismatch at the end, and it won't really differ for more than one cycle.
11:39:01 <AndoDaan> And all CT programs come from converting a tag system alphabet (a=100 b=010 c=001...)?
11:39:27 <Lilax> I feel like /'s and +'s are better oerjan plus its easier I guess if I were to make sub classes and it looks pretty
11:39:53 <vanila> cyclic tag is so smiple
11:39:57 <vanila> it seems like it shouldn't be TC!
11:39:58 <Lilax> like i swear the sub class would be - and \
11:40:07 <vanila> it feels in a differen class to turing machines
11:40:17 <b_jonas> Lilax: pluses and slashes? so all the cards would give p/t bonuses to other cards?
11:40:38 <Lilax> I remember my first encounter
11:42:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: not if you choose it.
11:42:23 <shachaf> What about e.g. Nantuko Mentor?
11:42:26 <Lilax> apparently breaks my latex
11:42:49 <shachaf> I guess +X/+X for a creature with negative power would subtract from power and toughness.
11:43:10 <Lilax> I was uhm not talking about magic b_jonas
11:43:25 <shachaf> It looks like it works the way you'd expect.
11:43:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not sure which way I expect it
11:44:12 <shachaf> OK, it works the way I'd expect.
11:44:32 <shachaf> It would make a -1/1 into a -2/0
11:44:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's Viridian Joiner though it doesn't mention X
11:44:49 <Lilax> My grandma has a very old Guide book on basic
11:44:54 <int-e> there's a rule like "If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead..."
11:45:08 <shachaf> What about draw X cards where X is negative, etc.?
11:45:13 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's some partial exception for powers and toughnesses
11:45:31 <shachaf> Power can be negative, but a creature with negative power just deals no damage in combat.
11:45:37 <b_jonas> wasn't there a card that put X tokens into play where X is the power of something
11:45:56 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22where+x+is+that+creature%27s+power%22
11:46:09 <b_jonas> I remmeber that because it's funny in un-sets with half power stuff
11:46:19 <shachaf> What does it mean to put -1 +1/+1 counters on something?
11:46:20 <b_jonas> there's also the newer Feed the Pack
11:46:26 <int-e> b_jonas: Ok, I guess it makes sense for power. But for drawing X cards, or placing X tokens, that rule should take effect.
11:46:42 <b_jonas> int-e: certainly, the question is whether it takes effect for that power-modifying thingy or not
11:46:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: Can toughness ever be negative?
11:47:17 <b_jonas> shachaf: not for long, because the creature dies quickly, but it can
11:47:25 <Lilax> Is it weird if my grandma knows more about.haskell than me
11:47:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's easier if you make the creature indestructible
11:47:36 <shachaf> I mean, for long enough for Feed the Pack to be relevant?
11:47:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: use indestructible
11:48:02 <b_jonas> oh wait, that doesn't help
11:48:04 <OneRatShort> anyone have any experience in opening their 3rd eye ?
11:48:44 <b_jonas> shachaf: try Fungal Sprouting then
11:49:20 <Lilax> list the options off in one text
11:49:23 <b_jonas> hmm, what would Miming Slime do?
11:49:47 <shachaf> Sure, but I was specifically wondering about negative toughness.
11:50:29 <shachaf> E.g. maybe you can have something like Wall of Roots, where you put a counter on it to pay for a spell and also sacrifice it as part of the same spell.
11:50:32 <Lilax> I swear I'm scared that my grandma has more experience in esoteric languages than I do
11:50:48 <shachaf> A spell like Momentous Fall.
11:50:49 <Lilax> when did this whole esoteric thing start
11:51:09 <Lilax> have a lot of momentum
11:51:11 <shachaf> Wouldn't work with Wall of Roots, but maybe with something else.
11:52:25 <oerjan> Lilax: the first major esoteric language is usually considered INTERCAL from the 70s, i think.
11:52:47 <oerjan> but the real flood didn't start until about '93
11:53:05 <oerjan> which is when both brainfuck and befunge were made
11:53:23 <int-e> "Being indestructible stops only effects that would destroy the permanent, including destruction due to lethal damage and destruction that doesn't allow regeneration. An indestructible permanent can be exiled, returned to a player's hand, put into a graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, or sacrificed."
11:53:32 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, I was stupid
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11:54:03 <Lilax> idk how old she was back then but uh
11:54:04 <int-e> nice use of past tense.
11:54:10 <b_jonas> is there a distinction between saying "grown-up's toy" and "grown-ups' toy" depending on whether it's used solo?
11:54:19 <Lilax> I guess she knows how to do a lot of code
11:55:41 <oerjan> Lilax: haskell isn't usually considered esoteric, although it's from 1990
11:56:20 <b_jonas> yeah, haskell is just "non-mainstream"
11:56:31 <Lilax> I said she knows more than me
11:56:58 <Lilax> But she knows More about esolangs than I thought
11:57:19 <Lilax> I should ask her what she knows about teh computers nexr time I see her
11:57:39 <oerjan> i think my father (who's probably older than your granma) knows how to program in principle, although i don't think he does it much
11:58:15 <Lilax> ye your father is probably older since you are 44
11:58:30 <oerjan> hey someone remembers my age!
11:58:39 <Lilax> I remember all ages
11:59:09 <Lilax> Only for one reason
11:59:25 <shachaf> imo you should swat me for belaboring the point
11:59:41 <Lilax> shachaf: likes to be hit?
11:59:56 <shachaf> i thought you were leaving
12:00:14 <Lilax> Its slowly turning off
12:00:29 <Lilax> but I can still type until..
12:00:30 -!- int-e has set topic: Collective Magicing | Programming through the Ages | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
12:00:51 <b_jonas> I don't remember ages, but I remember oerjan is a haskellite
12:01:30 <int-e> > text $ map pred "Sfnfncfs!nf\""
12:02:11 <Lilax> ill probs remember all of you even after you die
12:02:17 <Lilax> Cuz I never forget
12:03:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's the only logical conclusion
12:04:31 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, their average life span isn't so great it seems.
12:05:24 <oerjan> it's ok Lilax doesn't understand averages anyway
12:06:02 <int-e> oerjan: would that make it an average understanding of averages?
12:08:16 <b_jonas> is she a white or a green elephant?
12:08:41 <b_jonas> I don't follow genders either
12:08:53 <oerjan> well but you're hungarian
12:09:37 <int-e> actually, can we stop discussing animals for a day or two?
12:09:50 <oerjan> int-e: but then we could only talk with em when we're drunk...
12:10:56 <int-e> "journey of an ant" was a cute game. *lalala* . o O ( happy thoughts )
12:12:06 <oerjan> ants are animals too hth
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12:12:55 <int-e> `learn ants are animals too hth
12:12:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'ant': ants are animals too hth
12:14:21 <int-e> . o O ( things Oerjan Could Do )
12:14:35 <oerjan> `? misspellings of croissant
12:14:36 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:15:31 <b_jonas> no wait, that's misspel;led
12:15:37 <int-e> hmm, what would you call a corouscant-shaped omelette?
12:15:40 <oerjan> why would you want ants in your couscous
12:16:10 <int-e> Ah, missspelled typos.
12:17:02 <int-e> Will this become an antology of typos?
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12:19:03 * oerjan is still waiting for the answer twh hth
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12:19:20 <oerjan> forgot that script bug
12:20:16 <int-e> oerjan: you woke the beast within, turns out it's small, has six legs, and is crazy about sugar.
12:20:54 <oerjan> well if it weren't small it would be a giant
12:21:20 <int-e> but despite its size it can rant all day.
12:22:10 <oerjan> an insectful observation.
12:22:45 <int-e> (isn't that phantastic? with only three letters it's scantly possible to avoid that word even if you wanted to.)
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12:30:50 <int-e> there's really a lot of those words... blatantly bantering ants defiantly enchant dormant elephants.
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13:03:15 <b_jonas> int-e: beast within... is that like antman, the recurring super-villain in StickManStickMan, see http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=62
13:07:23 <int-e> b_jonas: maybe, but I've never seen that comic before.
13:14:06 <b_jonas> antman appears only once more after he's defeated I think, so I'm not sure if he counts as a recurring villain
13:15:17 <b_jonas> he returns in http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=638
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14:22:41 <b_jonas> wait... when did http://www.gocomics.com/heavenly-nostrils/ get its title changed?
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15:25:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41697&oldid=41696 * AndoDaan * (+27) Added to TC category.
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15:29:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:MNNBFSL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41698&oldid=41681 * AndoDaan * (-2123) Undo revision 41681 by [[Special:Contributions/AndoDaan|AndoDaan]] ([[User talk:AndoDaan|talk]]) I was a bit premature in adding the Wang B-machine outline.
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18:02:27 <int-e> wow, people are actually competing for the 101 scrabble words thing
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18:04:12 <int-e> > 101 * 2 * log 28/ log 256
18:04:21 <int-e> > 101 * 2 * log 26/ log 256
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19:09:25 <AndoDaan> I don't know what to do with myself now I'm done with MNNBFSL.
19:13:39 <zzo38> Make an implementation of Remote Virtual Table Protocol. Alternatively, make up a new kind of computer game. Even more alternatively, now you have to do LSFBNNM.
19:14:05 <MDude> http://www.atomicshrimp.com/st/content/invention_dice_2/
19:14:23 <AndoDaan> LSFBNNM... now that's an idea.
19:17:12 <vanila> AndoDaan, how did you write this BCT interpreter?
19:17:17 <vanila> i dont see a lot of binary numbers in the source code
19:18:02 <AndoDaan> It takes the BCT code and init string from the standard input.
19:18:19 <AndoDaan> in the form /BCTcode.initString//
19:19:19 <AndoDaan> In the end that was just easier to implent than comming up with a method to hard code the data each time.
19:21:44 <AndoDaan> I've updated my MNNBFSL javascript interpreter if you wanted to give the BCT interpreter a whirl.
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19:22:19 <vanila> it must have been hard to write...
19:23:24 <AndoDaan> I'm a bit embarrassed actually about how long it took me. But since it was my first time doing something like that, I learned a lot.
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19:24:06 <vanila> i dont think many people could do this at all!
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19:25:47 <AndoDaan> Ah, well some of the snippits I've gotten off other's their code. But I did come up with a search algorithm that can drag a value with it.
19:27:05 <AndoDaan> And that was key for the BCT interpreter I think.
19:31:05 <AndoDaan> So, what is holding your interest lately, vanila?
19:33:16 <vanila> ive just been working on compilers, non esotierc
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19:51:06 <zzo38> Now I made up some more Magic: the Gathering cards
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20:03:48 <zzo38> One thing I made up is "Target spell loses all subtypes."
20:10:08 <pikhq> That does weird things to enchantments.
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20:14:17 <Lilax> Discussing if I was an elephant after I left ._.
20:14:23 <Sgeo> " Make sure that you use the correct screws. If you have a torque screwdriver, tighten all screws firmly to the torque shown in the table. Never use a screw that you removed. Use a new one. Make sure that all screws are tightened firmly"
20:14:31 <Sgeo> Manual (I think for service people) for my machine
20:14:39 <Lilax> I learner that in woodshop
20:14:41 <Sgeo> Blah, how critical is it to use new screws?
20:15:34 <Lilax> Eg: If you use an old screw the drill bit can fracture and now you have shrapnel flying around
20:15:58 <Lilax> oops you've lost your eyes
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20:17:57 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes I know it does weird things to enchantments. Many auras will just fail to work, although some will continue to partially work anyways.
20:19:39 <pikhq> It also makes arcane spells sad. :)
20:21:17 <Lilax> I have a friend.who goes by piks
20:21:26 <zzo38> Actually it doesn't looks to me that it would affect the ability to splice onto arcane.
20:21:50 <pikhq> Yes, but there's abilities that trigger on arcane spells resolving, no?
20:22:13 <pikhq> Certainly can't affect splicing though.
20:22:28 <pikhq> There's no point at which splicing could be done and that spell could have resolved on another spell.
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20:26:04 <Lilax> 'I thought I had some blue cheese in my fridge, but to my disappointment it was just normal cheese accelerating towards me'
20:26:31 <zzo38> I suppose it would allow arcane spells to damage Kitsune Riftwalker (but only for untargeted damage)
20:27:30 <pikhq> Lilax: Sounds dangerous.
20:28:15 <pikhq> The velocity there would be absurd for blue shift to be noticable.
20:28:17 <Lilax> Ok, Just makin' sure
20:28:22 <pikhq> I presume this is why it's past tense. :)
20:28:45 <elliott> would you even have enough time to process the sensory input
20:29:00 <pikhq> Ballpark on the order of .2c
20:29:03 <Lilax> If you opened your fridge
20:29:13 <pikhq> elliott: No, neurons don't go that fast.
20:29:17 <Lilax> from the other side of the city
20:29:29 <elliott> what kind of house do you live in, Lilax
20:29:31 <elliott> what kind of arms do you have.
20:29:48 <Lilax> my arms fell into a blackhole
20:29:55 <elliott> how does the cheese suddenly accelerate to .2c only as you open the door
20:29:58 <elliott> there are so many questions here
20:30:14 <pikhq> Perhaps you have a nuclear fridge.
20:30:25 <Lilax> Ok so in my freshman year
20:30:38 <Lilax> I had to solve for the speed of light
20:30:52 <Lilax> As it enters an event horizon
20:31:11 <Lilax> I failed that so did the entire class
20:32:16 <pikhq> "C = 1 foot/nanosecond" there, I answered it. :)
20:33:21 <Lilax> if only I had pikhq in 9th grade
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20:35:38 <elliott> you never played pokemon as a kid?
20:36:09 <zzo38> Learn how to play Pokemon card!
20:36:13 <Lilax> Pokemon Heart gold was my first one
20:36:20 <elliott> the joke is that pikhq is pikachu
20:36:37 <Lilax> Look people, I am not good at the card games
20:36:52 <Lilax> Its just to much pressure for my frail heart
20:38:45 <pikhq> "Pokemon heart gold was my first one" now I feel old.
20:40:19 <Lilax> Then I played yellow on a emulator
20:40:33 <Lilax> Then I got A gameboy colour
20:40:42 <Lilax> Oh man that was the shit
20:40:51 <Lilax> back in elementary.
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20:48:32 <int-e> ouch. https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671
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20:49:55 <vanila> bash is such a good language
20:52:28 <elliott> I'm glad we use operating systems where a program you run accidentally doing rm -rf /* is enough to delete all your personal files that it would otherwise never need to even know about the existence of :(
20:52:57 <vanila> that's a good point actually
20:53:13 <vanila> there's two things you could improve here: the language (not using bash), and the OS itself
20:53:23 <int-e> it's easy, just make /home unreadable to everyone :P
20:54:22 <int-e> (Of course I don't)
20:54:43 <int-e> (and it wouldn't have helped with the /media anyway)
20:54:54 <elliott> to be fair, "for path in glob.glob(os.path.join(steam_root, '*')): os.remove(path)" or whatever is just as broken
20:55:00 <elliott> if steam_root can be empty
20:55:18 <elliott> you can argue with bash making it empty in the first place but it's not as slam-dunk a bash issue as a lot of shell script bugs are
20:55:21 <pikhq> It's just unfortunate that common OSes don't have any degree of application sandboxing.
20:55:27 <int-e> STEAMROOT="$(cd "${0%/*}" && echo $PWD)" <-- this is also completely wrong if $0 is a symlink
20:55:49 <pikhq> (ideally Steam wouldn't be *able* to delete all that stuff)
20:56:07 <int-e> I'm using DIR=$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")") which is probably not perfect either. But I'm not removing any files there :P
20:56:32 <int-e> and... missing an outer pair of quotes? maybe.
20:56:43 <pikhq> No, the outer pair of quotes is unneeded.
20:56:59 <pikhq> When you're setting a variable, sh parses from the = to the end of the line as part of the variable.
20:57:14 <pikhq> (this is a bizarre special case in sh syntax)
20:57:42 <int-e> But there's the FOO=bar cmd syntax.
20:57:50 <pikhq> I misstated somewhat.
20:58:01 <int-e> but $() cannot be broken apart like that.
20:58:09 <elliott> http://www.etalabs.net/sh_tricks.html
20:58:21 <pikhq> Yeah, always a good thing.
20:58:27 <elliott> "The following is not safe:
20:58:28 <elliott> Due to most commands writing a newline at the end of their output, Bourne-style command substitution was designed to strip training newlines from the output. But it doesn’t just strip one trailing newline; it strips them all. In the above command, if f contains any trailing newlines in the last directory component, they will be stripped, yielding a different directory name. While no one sane would put
20:58:34 <pikhq> Rich Felker is as general awesome.
20:58:35 <elliott> newlines in directory names, such corruption of the results could lead to exploitable vulnerabilities in scripts."
20:59:00 <pikhq> s/as general/as always, generally/
20:59:04 <int-e> if f contains any trailing newlines ... well, yes
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20:59:17 <int-e> as I said I'm not deleting any files :)
20:59:20 <vanila> also having files called -help --help
20:59:24 <vanila> and then doing ls * or something
20:59:29 <pikhq> vanila: That's easy to deal with though.
20:59:47 <elliott> also I think readlink isn't that portable
20:59:48 <vanila> that doesn't stop it being a problem
20:59:50 <pikhq> Sadly most people are completely ignorant about that feature of getopt-style syntax.
20:59:55 <vanila> the reason its a problem is because you can do these things by mistake
20:59:58 <elliott> I don't have readlink -f, though I'm on OS X
21:00:17 <pikhq> (even though that has been in getopt *as long as there has been a getopt*)
21:00:23 <zzo38> When writing shell scripts I also usually type #!/bin/bash -- just in case someone decides to allow the operating system to setuid shell scripts and then they rename the file with - at first
21:01:17 <pikhq> But then, people suck.
21:01:22 <int-e> elliott: interesting, I thought that program had a mac user. I've got to inquire.
21:02:02 * pikhq "loves" how so many common utils have shitty edge cases
21:02:03 <elliott> int-e: what does your script do?
21:02:44 <zzo38> I was aware of -- syntax at least, I don't know why a lot of people don't know very well?
21:02:52 <int-e> elliott: there's a config file right next to the wrapper script, and I want to find it even when the wrapper script is symlinked (usually from ~/bin)
21:03:58 <int-e> elliott: so I have something like DIR=$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")"); "$DIR"/tool -conf "$DIR"/tool.conf
21:04:24 <zzo38> I have implemented -- syntax in some of my own programs too if they have a filename as a command-line argument, although some of my programs don't use command-line arguments at all and only act as a filter
21:04:56 <zzo38> It is too bad many new programs will not act as a filter.
21:05:15 <vanila> I think the real solution is switching langauge to something that does't have these difficulties
21:07:21 <zzo38> But is scheme shell capable of fixing programs to act like a filter, or to allow "ls *" to work even though the files named with - at front?
21:07:36 <vanila> the idea would be to pass flags in a different way than files
21:07:51 <vanila> e.g. (ls (flags help) (file -foo bar))
21:07:55 <vanila> and it should work fine
21:08:10 <vanila> i mean this is just an idea, it coudl be haskell or something else
21:08:15 <zzo38> Yes that would work, if the program is designed in that way.
21:09:13 <zzo38> With Haskell programs it could clearly work, by dynamically importing modules to do the stuff; other executable files can maybe also be imported as a IO ()
21:09:50 <zzo38> Or better would be ([String] -> IO Int) or something like that; you can then add other commands for redirection too.
21:10:37 <vanila> well it should be [Parameter] where data Parameter = Flag String | File String o r something like this
21:10:39 <int-e> elliott: I guess I could write a perl script instead :P
21:10:41 <vanila> to be able to distriguish them
21:10:45 <zzo38> However these kind of ways of doing this with Haskell program, would work best if the operating system is using Haskell too. Probably also if you are using Scheme, it would work best if the operating system is using Scheme.
21:10:54 <int-e> elliott: but this is an academic tool, I'll wait for the complaints.
21:11:00 <vanila> yeys I want to make an OS which isn't based on files
21:11:06 <vanila> but i think its too hard to write a whole OS
21:11:21 <nys> what about STEPS :3
21:11:22 <zzo38> vanila: The thing is that if the operating system isn't Haskell it won't know that! If you are importing Haskell programs then the program can have whatever type you want it to have and don't have that problem.
21:11:33 <vanila> yeah, something with a vision like STEPS!
21:11:38 <elliott> int-e: not sure perl is the right step up from there
21:12:00 <int-e> elliott: well there's no GNU perl or Sun perl...
21:12:14 <vanila> yes zzo38 that's a good point, a lot of the OS tools force us to have these problems
21:12:21 <vanila> but knowing that we can try to addres it
21:13:09 <int-e> elliott: so for portably implementing readlink (which POSIX apparently doesn't have at all), that's an option.
21:13:25 <elliott> posix doesn't have perl either though
21:13:34 <elliott> I think you can do that construct portably though
21:13:42 <zzo38> Of course one thing that can be done, if you are making this with Haskell, is to write modules that can be used as wrappers for non-Haskell programs which will figure out the correct command-line arguments and other stuff.
21:13:44 <int-e> right. but perl is installed almost everywhere anyway
21:13:51 <pikhq> POSIX has awk, but no Perl.
21:14:02 <pikhq> POSIX does have C though. :D
21:14:46 <int-e> C is fine, but not for scripting.
21:14:47 <elliott> https://github.com/mkropat/sh-realpath
21:15:24 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, although there are many other programming languages that can be used for scripting, depending on what you need it for you can use it.
21:15:25 <elliott> needs a readlink but not one with -f and you can emulate it with ls
21:15:33 <elliott> but then maybe you run into escaping issues?? joy!
21:15:51 <int-e> elliott: so that's avoiding readlink -f but still uses readlink.
21:16:58 <zzo38> I happen to like AWK for text processing
21:17:10 <vanila> ive used awk a couple times..
21:17:18 <vanila> i thought i should use perl instead
21:17:34 <zzo38> Although there are a few things missing (as well as a few GNU extensions which don't seem much useful to me)
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21:18:47 <int-e> awk occupies a middle ground between sed and perl to me. I use it occasionally.
21:21:15 <pikhq> Well yes, Perl is basically awk++.
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21:21:54 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't, because I use perl when I need that sort of thing
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21:25:09 <zzo38> And for data processing, there is SQLite.
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21:32:09 <int-e> Meh. "PR" is overloaded. "Problem Report" "Public Relations" "Pull Request".
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22:00:00 <int-e> I didn't need to know this (acronymfinder): Per Rectum (method of medication)
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22:09:59 <Lilax> Make time bans for irc
22:10:53 <int-e> you just have to remember to unset them again
22:11:38 <int-e> (or have a bot that does it automatically (freenode has a service bot, eir, for this... not sure how to get it on channels though))
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22:14:22 <Lilax> I just have a :tban (user) (time) but sometimes it forks the time to x100 times that
22:14:31 <Lilax> so ye ill just go find that bot
22:15:41 <int-e> (also eir makes *all* bans expire, it can be annoying.)
22:16:56 <Lilax> I can make it even more annoying (user) ban expire @1sec = reban
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22:17:21 <Lilax> it bans then expires in 1second then detects unban and bans again
22:17:35 <Lilax> Although the msgs would spam
22:19:29 <Lilax> This is all for The modding system I'm making for reasons since ye
22:19:36 <Lilax> People abuse my bot a lot
22:21:00 <int-e> please do not use the return key for punctuation. we can wait for whole sentences, we're patient like that.
22:21:36 <Lilax> Oh, I'm not used to that.. Sorry.
22:22:58 <Lilax> Everyone I'm around usually talks like that.
22:23:35 <int-e> (It's not a strict rule either, more of a guideline. I've found that sticking to that allows me to communicate more coherently. (Yes, I could be even more incoherent. ;-) ))
22:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41699&oldid=40888 * AndoDaan * (+23)
22:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:AndoDaan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41700&oldid=41699 * AndoDaan * (+1)
22:46:39 <oerjan> int-e: seems like the solution to the latest golf problem is pretty canonical :)
22:46:59 <oerjan> (he said, just before henkma swooped down with 42)
22:47:09 <oerjan> ^ not an actual event. yet.
22:49:29 <oerjan> sometimes it annoys me that . has an incompatible fixity with the default one for `ident`s.
22:50:01 <oerjan> it's associative, so it didn't _have_ to
22:51:39 <oerjan> even if the current one is slightly more intuitive for how lazy equational thinking expands it
23:13:10 <zzo38> I want to make up the programming language RULECARD and then make up the rules for Aberration Hater Card Game using that, but, perhaps at first I can do it just in normal text and then convert it later. And then rules for Magic: the Gathering should also be written using such programming language, so that you can know exactly how it is working and Wizards of the Coast should learn to use such programming language too.
23:14:55 <zzo38> Do you think this is a better idea than the other way?
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23:19:46 <zzo38> This is how to win at Pokemon card: http://zzo38computer.org/img_16/pokemoncard1.png
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23:34:02 <Taneb> zzo38, I think your RULECARD idea is probably good but makes the system a lot less flexible
23:37:28 <Taneb> But I must go to sleep now, goodnight
23:37:32 <zzo38> Well, the programming language would have to be defined in a flexible way
23:38:42 <Taneb> Is such a flexible language deserving of being called a programming language?
23:39:11 <int-e> oerjan: yes that fixity of . did cross my mind
23:41:30 <zzo38> It does mean that whenever you add a new card, it will be necessary to recompile *everything*.
23:42:37 <oerjan> int-e: did you call your variable n? if so i predict byte-for-byte equality hth
23:42:51 <int-e> oerjan: I did not.
23:43:09 <int-e> for some reason x won this time
23:43:34 <zzo38> However, you usually would not have to modify the rules; you would always have to recompile them (as well as recompile all existing cards) if you are adding or changing anything. If you are only deleting a card, you may be able to get away without recompiling everything right away.
23:49:25 <int-e> oerjan: there's one other thing I could vary but I did choose the more plausible option
23:50:10 <int-e> (there are two ways of shortening a:b:[] by one character)
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