00:01:30 <oerjan> my first version had a freestanding (a:) section but i got better
00:02:30 <Lilax> Create their own language
00:02:46 <Lilax> Like it doesn't have to be an alt of some other language
00:02:52 <Lilax> But just a new one
00:03:05 <int-e> it's easy. you take brainfuck and change the syn... *looks around* *runs*
00:03:12 <zzo38> Lilax: There is many possible ways
00:03:29 * oerjan throws the saucepan after int-e and hits with a *CLANG* ===\__/
00:03:56 <Lilax> Not taking a language and changing it
00:04:09 <oerjan> Lilax: i think a good first step is to have _one_ really novel idea to base it around. that's also a hard part.
00:04:38 <Lilax> Well, Ill first need to study up
00:05:06 <Lilax> But I guess I can make a new one -3-
00:07:03 <Lilax> I uh.. Got really hyper and made an entire turkey dinner today
00:07:24 <Lilax> And idk what to do with all this food
00:10:56 <oerjan> my mom would have divided it up and stored in the freezer
00:11:05 <oerjan> she was a practical woman
00:13:07 <Lilax> Why would someone send this to me
00:13:49 <int-e> was it because they were inspired by smalltalk?
00:13:50 <oerjan> looks like weird syntax
00:14:03 <int-e> looks like a zero-argument method with empty body.
00:16:03 <MDude> I would think to make a language it'd help to learn how it's going to be interpreted or compiled and executed.
00:17:00 <MDude> Or how such things are done for whatever you want to run the language you want to make.
00:18:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘|’
00:19:09 <Lilax> thanks for the hint!
00:20:48 <Lilax> range(1, 1000) .filter(|&x| x % 2 == 0) .filter(|&x| x % 3 == 0) .take(5) .collect::<Vec<i32>>();
00:20:55 <int-e> > forM [0..7] $ \i -> shows (2^i) " "
00:20:57 <lambdabot> ["12481361","12481362","12481368","1248136 ","12481341","12481342","12481348...
00:21:50 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^i) " "
00:22:02 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^x) " "
00:22:09 <Lilax> does it out put the same without " "
00:22:22 <int-e> > do x <- [0..7]; shows (2^x) ":"
00:22:57 <Lilax> > forM [0..7] $ \i -> shows (2^i)
00:23:30 <Lilax> Fuck I keep doing the thing you told me not to do ._.
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00:23:52 <int-e> nah, shows n returns a function that prepends the string representation of n to a string.
00:24:07 -!- augur has joined.
00:25:05 <int-e> > show 64 -- show n = shows n ""
00:25:22 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:25:39 -!- augur has joined.
00:26:02 <int-e> > take 5 [x | x <- [1..1000], x `mod` 3 == 0]
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00:38:35 <Lilax> from my close study of a computer science student I have learned that 5% of it is writing code and 95% of it wondering why they wrote that
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00:45:07 <int-e> I'm missing a planning phase (where one thinks about where to even begin coding) in those numbers.
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01:22:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘unicode’Not in scope: ‘μ’
01:23:03 <Lilax> I'm like very forgetful
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01:26:21 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. can I ask you a riichiquestion?
01:29:39 <boily> fungot: maybe I can ask you the riichiquestion?
01:29:40 <fungot> boily: dream or not, for no such amount was needed to keep a lone old man and woman took pleasure in trapping and slaying every cat which came near to their fnord for i recalled that in its experimental stage it had sputtered and purred when in action. in reply to questions hart said he though the escaping truck had headed up fnord avenue, though he knew not why.
01:29:45 <zzo38> boily: What question?
01:30:22 <boily> we were arguing if oya should remain oya even if she's noten during South.
01:31:03 <boily> apparently, it's not an official ruling, and many people always dislodge oya, regardless of the current hanchan.
01:31:13 <zzo38> Both ways are played. I prefer that during south round (and only during south round), oya always remains oya after an exhausive draw even if noten.
01:31:38 <zzo38> However, you can decide what variant you want to play by.
01:32:00 <boily> okay, so it's not just a club fantasy.
01:32:23 <boily> I like it when we can slowly suck oya's points away :D
01:34:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41701&oldid=41651 * 99.127.206.54 * (+4402)
01:34:44 <Lilax> Today On how its made
01:34:52 <Lilax> The sins of mankind
01:36:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41702&oldid=41701 * 99.127.206.54 * (+2) /* Chicken */
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01:55:13 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK]
02:00:06 <HackEgo> [U+0589 ARMENIAN FULL STOP]
02:00:49 <int-e> > let a ; b = b - a ; 3 = 4 ; x = 6 ; 48 ; 3 = 1 ; 2 ; 3 in x ; x ; x
02:04:27 <int-e> but there doesn't seem to be another code point whose glyph looks like an equality sign, besides the full width one: ＝
02:08:20 <boily> not even line or box drawings?
02:08:38 <int-e> > let _ ♛ _ = 42 in () ♛ []
02:09:38 <int-e> > let _ ⣿ _ = 42 in () -- what about Braille?
02:10:17 <boily> you could get creative with Braille.
02:10:40 <int-e> > let _ ㎓ _ = 23 in () ㎓ 42
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02:14:51 <int-e> 😱 could also make an excellent infix operator
02:15:18 <HackEgo> U+1F631 FACE SCREAMING IN FEAR \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 b1 UTF-16BE: d83dde31 Decimal: 😱 \ 😱 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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02:17:46 <boily> int-e: http://imgur.com/fs6dAhF
02:17:53 <HackEgo> [U+A4FF LISU PUNCTUATION FULL STOP]
02:18:41 <int-e> boily: my terminal doesn't display it either, check http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2015-01-19.txt ?
02:20:07 <boily> one day, everything will be perfectly unicodified under the Great Physics Unification.
02:20:18 <int-e> boily: if that doesn't help, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/1F631.png
02:21:24 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a + а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а in text $ а + а + а + а
02:21:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (Text.Printf.PrintfType t1)
02:21:25 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t1’ is ambiguous
02:21:46 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a + а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а + а + а + а
02:23:02 <HackEgo> [U+0430 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A]
02:24:17 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a ^ а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а ^ а ^ а ^ а
02:25:31 <Jafet> > let а = show a; a 😱 а = printf "(%s 😱 %s)" a а :: String; infixr 9 😱 in а 😱 а 😱 а 😱 а
02:25:32 <lambdabot> "(a \128561 (a \128561 (a \128561 a)))"
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02:25:39 <int-e> > let а = show (a + a); a ^ а = printf "(%s + %s)" a а :: String in а ^ а ^ а ^ а
02:25:40 <lambdabot> "(((a + a + a + a) + a + a) + a + a)"
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02:27:34 <HackEgo> [U+1F000 MAHJONG TILE EAST WIND]
02:28:33 <HackEgo> U+1F434 HORSE FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b4 UTF-16BE: d83ddc34 Decimal: 🐴 \ 🐴 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
02:28:51 <int-e> (I have no font for that one, apparently)
02:30:57 <boily> ah! I can see the mahjong tile!
02:31:09 <boily> (hmm... I think I have a new feature for metasepia...)
02:31:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shuffle: not found
02:31:47 <int-e> hmm, which bot had the perfect shuffle?
02:34:49 <int-e> > foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾🃁🃂🃃🃄🃅🃆🃇🃈🃉🃊🃋🃍🃎🃑🃒🃓🃔🃕🃖🃗🃘🃙🃚🃛🃝🃞"
02:34:50 <lambdabot> "\127137\127139\127141\127143\127145\127147\127150\127154\127156\127158\1271...
02:35:06 <int-e> > text $ foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾"
02:35:20 <int-e> > text $ foldr ((.reverse).(:)) [] "🂡🂢🂣🂤🂥🂦🂧🂨🂩🂪🂫🂭🂮🂱🂲🂳🂴🂵🂶🂷🂸🂹🂺🂻🂽🂾🃁🃂🃃🃄🃅🃆🃇🃈🃉🃊🃋🃍🃎🃑🃒🃓🃔🃕🃖🃗🃘🃙🃚🃛🃝🃞"
02:35:21 <lambdabot> 🂡🂣🂥🂧🂩🂫🂮🂲🂴🂶🂸🂺🂽🃁🃃🃅🃇🃉🃋🃎🃒🃔🃖🃘🃚🃝🃞🃛🃙🃗🃕🃓🃑🃍🃊🃈🃆🃄🃂🂾🂻🂹🂷🂵🂳🂱🂭🂪🂨🂦🂤🂢
02:38:18 <HackEgo> [U+2F14 KANGXI RADICAL SPOON]
02:38:33 <int-e> of course. obviously.
02:51:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TURBOCHARGED CHICKEN).
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03:35:04 <oerjan> <Lilax> 'I thought I had some blue cheese in my fridge, but to my disappointment it was just normal cheese accelerating towards me' <-- now i'm imagining some alien storage device that works by keeping perishables in a strong gravitational field
03:35:22 <oerjan> and which does this when you take things out
03:36:14 <oerjan> except i think it would have to be redshifted while actually slowed down
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03:41:55 <oerjan> The Fridges of Alpha Centauri, coming far too soon to a cinema near you
03:42:59 <oerjan> they may have got a head start
03:43:11 <oerjan> but the light has just been seen
03:43:58 <AndoDaan> I hate the fact that all I can see is the past.
03:44:34 <oerjan> also their cheesy "i'm blue da ba dee" broadcasts
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03:45:20 <AndoDaan> Question: somewhere on the wiki there was a page that had a list of esolang interpreters for other esolanguages. Even mentioning the longest chain. Does anyone remember where that page is?
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03:46:11 <AndoDaan> Now that freaking song in my head again.
03:46:51 <oerjan> i can replace the song with something swedish hth
03:47:07 <oerjan> (luckily boily isn't here to tell you it's a trap)
03:47:41 <AndoDaan> Except any of those songs with nonsense lyrics.
03:48:00 <AndoDaan> (hope that doesn't exclude all of them)
03:48:03 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg hth
03:48:14 <oerjan> it's not _technically_ nonsense
03:51:28 <AndoDaan> No idea what they're sing... talking about, but it's unsettling.
03:52:00 <oerjan> it's about a perpetuum mobile/rube goldberg device
03:53:00 * oerjan thinks an evil cackle is in order
03:53:47 <AndoDaan> Even you can't like that, right?
03:54:02 <AndoDaan> (I say 'even you', but I don't really know your taste)
03:54:26 <oerjan> of course i am nostalgic about it, since i was a teen when it was a hit
03:54:57 <oerjan> or possibly even younger
03:55:54 <Sgeo> Beginning sounds a bit like some Quantum Conundrum music
03:55:56 <oerjan> of course it helps if you understand the hilarious lyrics
03:56:50 <Lilax> That's not a cackle oerjan
03:56:56 <Lilax> that's an evil laugh
03:57:03 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ILKlb1Pa8
03:57:36 <Sgeo> oerjan: you ain't my brother
03:58:11 <oerjan> wait i forgot to tell i'm eating pizza. it's traditional.
03:58:48 * Sgeo may have been eating pizza 5 nights a week >.>
03:59:26 <Lilax> You lucky lil shit
03:59:35 <Lilax> I haven't had pizza in years
04:00:25 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xHK0m5hVyY
04:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41703&oldid=40561 * 188.188.90.222 * (+541) /* Main table */ Added MNNBFSL's contributions
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04:39:06 <shachaf> Sgeo: did you see http://play.prismata.net/?r=g5+eg-e95rs
04:50:40 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:50:54 <Sgeo> Bear in mind while I might understand the basic mechanics of Prismata, I have no idea on strategy, as has been proven to you twice
04:54:29 <Sgeo> For some reason I got confused as to whose turn it was. Diidn't occur to me that Eiko could actually do anything
04:55:26 <Sgeo> Nerf Cluster Bolt by making it cost 1gold?
04:55:35 <Sgeo> (+4green still)
04:56:07 <shachaf> I don't know that it's actually that much of a problematic unit.
04:56:28 <shachaf> But you're welcome to try that strategy in a game against me and see what happens.
04:56:32 <shachaf> (I have no idea what I'd do.)
05:06:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: We should play some Prismata! It'll be great.
05:07:06 <Sgeo> I should play more against Master Bot
05:07:14 <Sgeo> So that I can have some semblance of a clue
05:07:17 <shachaf> No reason to play against any other bot.
05:07:48 <shachaf> There's a demo at http://play.prismata.net/?demo
05:08:09 <shachaf> And it's not impossible to get hold of alpha keys.
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05:09:10 <AndoDaan> I mostly muck around on hearthstone, but I've been looking for something new lately.
05:10:12 <shachaf> Prismata has some interesting ideas.
05:11:29 <HackEgo> slist [S]: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:51:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: prismata tip: press ` to get a button that turns on superpower mode
05:51:06 <shachaf> your superpower is information
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06:03:23 * oerjan concludes that the longest esointerpreter chains haven't changed since last he checked
06:07:53 <Sgeo> There is a war in my throat, between stomach acid and not-stomach-acid
06:08:07 <Sgeo> Well, below throat I guess
06:08:18 <shachaf> may the acid from your not-stomach win
06:09:43 <Lilax> stomach acid shouldn't hurt in the esophogus
06:09:53 <Lilax> or lower areas near the stomach
06:10:02 <Sgeo> Lilax: in that case, what's heartburn?
06:10:27 <Lilax> That's near the top where your mouth is
06:10:42 <Sgeo> Well, it feels bad in my chest
06:11:09 <Lilax> Eating anything weird lately?
06:11:26 <Sgeo> Pizza 5 nights a week? Also, GERD diagnosis + meds that don't seem to be helping
06:11:57 <Lilax> Greasy foods cause stomach acid production to sky rocket
06:13:05 <Lilax> Since there isn't any feeling to pre regurgatation you probably puked a little in your sleep and swallowed it back down and now you have a peice of acidy food bit stuck in there
06:13:41 <Lilax> And or Orange juice / pinnaple juice it should disolve whatevers in there
06:13:42 <oerjan> just drink a strong base hth
06:14:17 <Lilax> I have a medical class and Coincidentaly we are talking about effects of grease on the stomach
06:14:33 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i refuse to take responsibility if Sgeo is actually stupid enough to follow my advice)
06:14:42 <Lilax> Its good in small ammounts; But a whole pizza every week
06:14:58 <Lilax> Eat some fruit and Then some Steak and such
06:15:16 <Lilax> Also glucose Have some of dat
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06:16:03 <Lilax> Ye you go drink teh waters
06:16:12 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try buying apples again. i stopped buying them in the autumn because the norwegian ones got in season and sheesh how can a blood red apple be _that_ sour?
06:18:45 <Lilax> uh red apples are sour cuz they are in the inbetween stages
06:19:01 <Lilax> A nice Redish yellow green apple is sweet and amazing
06:19:11 <oerjan> ...i'm pretty sure red apples are the final stage?
06:19:17 <oerjan> before it starts rotting
06:19:21 <Lilax> Different aplle types
06:20:59 <shachaf> oerjan: aren't apples supposed to be sour twh
06:21:03 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFukyIIM1XI
06:21:12 <oerjan> shachaf: not in my opinion
06:21:34 <Lilax> Sour apples are good to wake you up
06:21:50 <Lilax> But I need sweet apples TO LIVE
06:24:22 <oerjan> ok that version was too long even for me
06:25:05 <shachaf> Lilax: that's sour cereal hth
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06:27:17 <Sgeo|web> My phone fell on my keyboard. Windows bluescreened.
06:27:36 <shachaf> Taneb: did you go to the prelease or whatever it was?
06:28:09 <Sgeo|web> oerjan: I think I will swallow a base, thank
06:28:44 <oerjan> I MY GOT I KILLED SGEO
06:29:13 <oerjan> my fingers are speaking a different language than me
06:31:00 <Sgeo|web> Also, tomorrow. Unless 7-Eleven has tums or generic
06:31:42 <oerjan> hm calcium carbonate yeah that's a base
06:32:52 <Sgeo|web> I do want to speak with a pharmacist to check that it won't interact with anything
06:33:07 <Sgeo|web> In the meantime... attempt to sleep with heartburn? :/
06:35:32 <Sgeo|web> Apparently nighttime heartburn is dangerous, in a long-term sense
06:36:45 <Sgeo|web> I'm on prescription meds for this, why aren't they working :(
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06:41:11 <Lilax> His phone fell on his key board and windows blue screened?!
06:41:22 <Lilax> Didn't windows remove the blue screen thing
06:41:43 <Lilax> you have to go it regedit to Change it so it can blue screen again
06:43:02 <Sgeo> Blue screen looks different
06:43:52 <Lilax> To disolve any acidic residue in esophogus
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06:55:48 * Sgeo has been drinking cold water all day
06:56:04 <Sgeo> Not sure I have any utensils suitable for hot water
06:57:54 <Lilax> you dont have running hot water?!
06:58:06 * Lilax mails Sgeo hot water
07:00:30 <Sgeo> I don't have anything other than my hands I would feel comfortable drinking it from
07:00:38 <Sgeo> For cold water, have an old plastic water bottle
07:03:51 <oerjan> i see young people these days don't bother with those old-fashioned "cups"
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07:06:14 <Sgeo> Would hot water even actually work?
07:06:18 <Sgeo> It sounds a bit folklorish
07:27:42 <Lilax> just not boiling water ok sgeo
07:30:37 <shachaf> does anyone here other than Sgeo play prismata? perhaps it's not the right channel for it
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07:38:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt s/at least one not having cover, /at most one not having covering, / ?
07:41:42 <zzo38> Thank you I fixed it. (I also reworded it a bit more too in order to make it clear.)
07:42:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does that interact with banding though?
07:42:29 <zzo38> I should probably clarify that too.
07:43:07 <zzo38> Well, it seems clear to me how it interacts with banding at least.
07:43:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: but at this point, if you have both forming bands AND damage order AND damage distribution stuff in the ability, I don't see what it gains over banding. in fact, banding seems _simpler_.
07:44:20 <b_jonas> so I preferred when it didn't allow you to form bands
07:45:26 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could make a similar ability that somehow works by redirecting damage to it from another creature in combat.
07:45:37 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure that could work well
07:46:06 <zzo38> It doesn't allow you to form bands; it is similar but for blocking. (Bands won't do much for blocking, but here it does something. It could be changed of course, such as by redirection or whatever)
07:51:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: if an attacking or blocking creature of an opponent assigns damage to both a creature with banding and one with covering (which may be the same creature or different ones), what are the requirements for how I have to distribute the damage to my creatures?
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07:51:24 <zzo38> You have to distribute all of it to one with covering.
07:52:48 <zzo38> However, because you have banding, you can choose which one with covering if you have more than one.
07:53:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: you should mention this in the description somewhere, because it's not clear to me.
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07:54:11 <b_jonas> I mean, why couldn't I just assing damage to the non-covering creatures, as the banding lets me ignore the damage order anyway?
07:54:30 <zzo38> Yes, I should clarify that.
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07:57:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: Do these blocking groups work like bands in that the "when becomes blocked by" and "when blocks" triggered abilities don't trigger/
07:57:35 <b_jonas> Or, um, I'm not really sure how banding works either really.
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07:57:59 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
07:59:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure either. Must I learn?
07:59:32 <b_jonas> Yes, probably. Though those triggers are mostly green and banding is mostly white, so it comes up only if I build a green-white deck.
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08:03:14 <b_jonas> About that, is it just me, or have wotc really stopped printing creatures with simple abilities that give a p/t bonus triggered when the creature is (blocking | blocking more than one creature | becomes blocked | attacking), since about 10th ed?
08:03:46 <b_jonas> Giant Badger is such a creature fro example
08:04:54 <b_jonas> oh, there is one in 10th Ed too, so I'm wrong: Elvish Berserker
08:05:05 <shachaf> I thought there was at least one in RTR?
08:06:28 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of Fortress Cyclops
08:06:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno. TSP has multiple creatures with flanking, which is somewhat similar
08:08:15 <b_jonas> ah, Fortress Cyclops, nice
08:09:27 <shachaf> I guess Guardian of the Gateless also counts.
08:09:39 <shachaf> Maybe it's not a "simple ability".
08:09:59 <shachaf> I guess that's less simple too.
08:11:32 <zzo38> As far as I can understand, the "when becomes blocked by" and "when blocks" triggered abilities will trigger, both for banding and for covering; I don't see why either would prevent it.
08:11:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, Guardian of the Gateless rewards you for multi-blocking, that's like Lairwatch Giant
08:12:13 <b_jonas> (Rightousness doesn't count of course)
08:13:18 <zzo38> Therefore it is possible that a card with covering might be able to block a card that it wouldn't ordinarily be able to block (as long as you have another card that can block it), just as it is possible for a card with banding to be blocked by something that wouldn't ordinarily be able to block it.
08:14:52 <zzo38> Banding is described in rule 702.21.
08:19:16 <zzo38> There are times when "Brainwash" is much better than "Oppressive Rays", "Arrest", or "Guard Duty".
08:20:09 <APic> There are Times for every Action.
08:20:11 <zzo38> Especially when putting it on your own card.
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08:22:30 <zzo38> It allows you to choose not to attack even if you would otherwise be forced to attack, and it allows you to use mana abilities while declaring attackers. Although, if you are playing blue, you might prefer War Tax (assuming you happen to get that card in your card pool).
08:23:24 <zzo38> War Tax is good because you can use one card on both yourself and on your opponent, instead of requiring two cards.
08:30:42 <Sgeo> "There's an increased risk of choking on refluxed stomach contents.
08:30:43 <Sgeo> If refluxed acid is in the throat and mouth, a GERD sufferer can inhale this into their lungs. Once in the lungs, it can cause a GERD sufferer to cough and choke on this aspirated material. The acid can also cause the same damage to the lungs as it can cause when refluxed into the esophagus."
08:30:45 <Sgeo> asdjflasfhjasklasdf
08:35:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: if I have a creature with covering and you resolve Master Warcraft, can you make my creatures form covering groups for blocking?
08:35:54 <Sgeo> Scared to sleep now
08:38:43 <zzo38> The answer is the same as whether or not you are allowed to make the attackers to form banding groups. I guess so, but I don't know so I will try to look it up and/or ask elsewhere and/or whatever.
08:39:13 <zzo38> Or maybe that isn't right.
08:40:20 <b_jonas> yes, it might not be the same, because Master Warcraft doesn't let you choose what player or planeswalker a creature attacks
08:40:24 <zzo38> OK so it doesn't allow you to decide bands; the active player still does that.
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08:41:02 <zzo38> But apparently it allows you to make all choices involved for blocking, so in that case yes you can decide covering groups.
08:46:01 <b_jonas> I don't know how Master Warcraft even interacts with costs for attacking or blocking
08:49:10 <b_jonas> I guess I should find out because Master Warcraft is both a cool card and has nice art
08:49:15 <zzo38> I was also wondering about that, and other stuff about Master Warcraft.
08:49:28 <b_jonas> however, costs for attacking or blocking aren't that common
08:55:50 <zzo38> My guess is that for attacking at least, if it is your opponent's turn, you can choose which creatures attack but then the active player (your opponent) can decide how to pay the costs (and if they include mana, which mana abilities to use and in what order); if they do it wrong it is rolled back and you have to try again; you can choose the same attackers and they have to do it properly this time; if that is not possible you have to choose differe
08:56:01 <zzo38> For blocking it is less clear.
08:57:02 <zzo38> What do you think?
08:58:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. It's possible that Master Warcraft can force me to sac islands to attack with a Leviathan if I have two islands, but I don't thikn it can force me to activate mana abilities.
08:59:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: on a different note, have you succeeded downloading the Khans set faq? because I tried again and the website just doesn't serve it.
09:00:51 <shachaf> b_jonas: Didn't I send you a working link the other day?
09:00:57 <shachaf> Maybe I misunderstood what you meant.
09:01:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: I didn't notice the link
09:01:18 <shachaf> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/release-notes-2014-09-18
09:01:30 <shachaf> The set faq is now called the release notes, you said.
09:01:48 <b_jonas> shachaf: for Fate, it's certaonly called release notes
09:02:08 <shachaf> Is this thing not a set faq?
09:02:35 <b_jonas> yes, that seems to be the correct link, and I think it's the same, but it's hard to be sure
09:03:08 <b_jonas> I really hope there isn't a separate release notes and set faq
09:03:31 <b_jonas> (except maybe for un-sets)
09:03:47 <shachaf> http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/faq/jou is also called "release notes"
09:17:36 <shachaf> Does () in Haskell correspond to the Sierpiński space?
09:18:49 <zzo38> I don't know what that is but I can try to look in Wikipedia
09:19:33 <zzo38> I still don't know the answer.
09:20:12 <zzo38> Also, if you can only decide what a card blocks and absolutely nothing else, then you cannot decide covering groups either.
09:20:47 <Jafet> The FSF wants... your old car http://www.fsf.org/associate/car
09:21:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: can't you also decide on which side of the Raging River you're trying to block?
09:21:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know? Ask that too on other IRC
09:22:47 <shachaf> zzo38: It's a topological space with two points 0 and 1 where only {1} is open.
09:23:25 <zzo38> shachaf: I can see that! It doesn't tell me if () in Haskell is correspond to the Sierpiski space.
09:24:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, if I give you a value x :: (), you can observe that x is () but you can't observe that x is _|_
09:24:38 <shachaf> And it's the same way for 1 and 0
09:25:09 <zzo38> Ah, yes I can understand you, but I don't know a lot about topological spaces.
09:25:48 <shachaf> I was looking at http://www.paultaylor.eu/ASD/sobsc.pdf
09:28:07 <oerjan> shachaf: a finite partial order is also a topological space, and i think the CPO of () gives that topological space
09:29:34 <shachaf> (and why partial rather than pre? are you talking about the alexandrov topology or something else?)
09:30:04 <oerjan> it's the other way around, a finite topological space is a partial (pre-)order
09:31:06 <shachaf> it's only a partial order if all the points are topologically distinguishable
09:31:20 <oerjan> i.e. T0 separation axiom
09:31:39 <oerjan> and if it's T1 it's fully discrete
09:32:01 <shachaf> not a lot of wiggle room :'(
09:32:18 <shachaf> how much do order-theory/topology concepts translate back and forth?
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09:33:13 <oerjan> hm i think monotonicity may be the same as continuity
09:33:13 <shachaf> e.g. inf/sup, galois connection, total order
09:33:26 <shachaf> yes, that's the idea of this isomorphism
09:33:54 <shachaf> a monotonic function between preorders is a continuous function between their alexandrov spaces
09:34:23 <shachaf> (and vice versa if your space is alexandrov)
09:34:31 <shachaf> but do all these other concepts translate?
09:35:01 <shachaf> i suspect that in a sense most of topology isn't interesting in the finite cases
09:35:15 <shachaf> certainly things like compactness are only interesting in the infinite case
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09:37:07 <oerjan> compactness is a kind of co-discreteness (see harmonic analysis)
09:37:23 <oerjan> and if you're both compact and discrete, you're finite
09:37:27 <shachaf> what should i read in order to understand that statement twh
09:38:05 <oerjan> the dual group of the integers is the unit circle
09:38:15 <oerjan> the first discrete, the second compact
09:38:23 <shachaf> i heard that compactness is co-overtness hth
09:38:44 <shachaf> that was a bad use of "hth"
09:39:18 * oerjan doesn't know about overtness
09:39:39 <shachaf> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/overt%20space
09:39:53 <shachaf> i guess you're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontryagin_duality ?
09:40:36 <b_jonas> hmm, let's set up a combo to infinite mindslave this channel and take it over
09:41:10 <shachaf> but how would you topologically describe properties like "total order" and "supremum"
09:41:14 <b_jonas> I'll grab my Pemmin's Aura
09:41:23 <shachaf> i guess supremum would only be only unique in a T0 space
09:42:35 <oerjan> total order means that given any two points, one is in the closure of the other?
09:44:24 <shachaf> i guess you run into trouble soon enough because you don't have a notion of duality in topology in general?
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09:51:37 <shachaf> what about translating things the other way
09:51:59 <shachaf> i guess you run into trouble because finite topologies are usually boring
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09:54:09 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway you have the thing where an inhabitant of (X -> S) corresponds to an open subset of X, right?
09:54:36 <shachaf> is there a corresponding thing in haskell with (X -> ())?
09:55:21 <oerjan> well that would be recursive subset, wouldn't it
09:55:38 <oerjan> recursively enumerable
09:55:47 <shachaf> recursively enumerable, sure
09:55:58 <oerjan> hm except that might not be right if X isn't enumerable to start with
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10:00:20 <elliott> finite x = length x `seq` ()?
10:04:26 <shachaf> i guess it makes sense that monotonic functions : X -> {0,1} would correspond to upper sets in X
10:10:24 <shachaf> hm, how many functions :: Bool -> () are there?
10:11:24 <elliott> non-strict: 3; strict: 3^2 = 9; total: 12
10:13:04 <oerjan> you know, i fear we may be succeeding in delaying GHC 7.10 http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:14
10:14:32 <shachaf> funny that the bug has been around for 6 weeks and no one noticed
10:16:08 <elliott> | A_|_ -> B_|_ | = | B_|_ | + (| B_|_ | ^ |A|), I guess.
10:16:19 <elliott> (A and B being flat/discrete/whatever)
10:17:24 <elliott> wait, I was thinking Bool -> Bool
10:17:47 <elliott> it's 6. non-strict: 2; strict: 2^2 = 4
10:18:35 <shachaf> isn't there only one non-strict one?
10:20:32 <int-e> oerjan: Well, it's a serious type system bug, now that SPJ is aware of it he will want to see it fixed (probably by himself but since typeable is involved it may split up into several subtasks) :)
10:22:50 <shachaf> i only count 5 functions :: Bool -> ()
10:23:12 <elliott> non-strict: f _ = undefined; f _ = ()... oh, that first one is strict.
10:23:26 <elliott> okay, | A_|_ -> B_|_ | = |B| + (1 + |B|)^|A|
10:25:06 <int-e> Oh, A_|_ is A_\bot... hard to read.
10:31:45 <shachaf> wait, so what's the topology for Bool
10:32:03 * shachaf should probably go to sleep
10:35:07 <shachaf> {} {⊥,F,T} {F} {T} {F,T}, i suppose
10:53:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, now try some manifest+cytoshape questions
10:53:51 <mroman> can't you do case c of { };?
10:54:21 <mroman> case c of {} works though
11:03:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/xMESZWvA
11:05:40 <mroman> which neatly compiles to http://codepad.org/soIMKlDB
11:10:51 <mroman> (The language itself dosen't actually specify what operators do)
11:11:08 <mroman> + is just translated to a call to "bOp"++ ord op
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11:52:09 <oerjan> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0605779 fancy
11:53:00 <oerjan> darn that paper is long
11:59:30 <int-e> "Conway had even pored over [Tarski's proof] at one time or another without achieving enlightenment."
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14:54:09 <HackEgo> helix__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:07:24 <Jafet> `` python -c 'print 2^200'
15:08:32 <vanila> mroman, owhats that ccompiler?
15:08:47 <lambdabot> 1606938044258990275541962092341162602522202993782792835301376
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15:09:17 <Jafet> What is that big number, did haskell get corrupted
15:09:48 <int-e> Jafet: it embraces big integers, to better represent its net worth
15:12:39 <Jafet> That's a lie, it's datatypes are free
15:13:25 <vanila> initially this was amusing but at this point it's terminal
15:13:41 <helix__> I'm writing my final paper about esoteric programming languages so I'm looking for different sources of information
15:13:56 <vanila> helix__, have you seen the esowiki
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15:14:20 <oerjan> * priority: high => highest
15:14:34 <oerjan> THERE IS NO REASON FOR PANIC
15:14:40 <Jafet> Speaking of corruption in haskell
15:14:54 <oerjan> Jafet: you're following the trac too?
15:14:56 <int-e> oerjan: we need to escalate the bug further!!!!!!1
15:15:02 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 10):
15:15:13 <b_jonas> um, how do I reverse a string?
15:15:55 <int-e> b_jonas: insert a right-to-left mark?
15:16:22 <blsqbot> | ERROR: (line 1, column 7):
15:16:34 <oerjan> helix__: pretty sure it's esolangs.org
15:18:13 <int-e> !blsq "since"<-<-<-
15:18:30 <mroman> vanila: I made up some simple stack based programming language and writing a compiler from that language to haskell
15:18:56 <mroman> (and the compiler is written in haskell, but I plan to rewrite the compiler in the stack based programming language itself so I have a self-hosting compiler)
15:20:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: 3 4 1 2 0
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15:26:58 <mroman> !blsq "since"<-{"since"jFi}m[
15:27:05 <mroman> !blsq "since"<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:27:11 <mroman> !blsq "since"><{"since"jFi}m[
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15:27:37 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4 2 3 0 1
15:27:45 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"Fi}m[
15:27:45 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:50 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"qjFi}m[
15:27:51 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:53 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"QjFi}m[
15:27:54 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:27:56 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"><{"since"JjFi}m[
15:27:56 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:28:02 <b_jonas> I'm pressing random buttons
15:28:07 <mroman> !blsq "since"><{"since"jFi}m[
15:28:29 <mroman> !blsq "since"<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:28:30 <b_jonas> that's hwy it doesn't work
15:28:54 <mroman> !blsq "since"JPp<>{"since"jFi}m[
15:29:00 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"{"since"<>Fi}m[
15:29:00 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:29:02 <mroman> !blsq "since"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[
15:29:05 <b_jonas> !blsq "since"{"since"<>jFi}m[
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15:32:40 <mroman> !blsq "abcdefgh"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[
15:32:45 <mroman> !blsq "abcdefgh"JPp<>{pPjFi}m[BS
15:33:42 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?<>
15:33:42 <blsqbot> | "sromlkigfdcbaYVOMKJHGEBA975430/"
15:34:09 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?><{%s?jFi}m[
15:34:09 <blsqbot> | {29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7}
15:34:11 <int-e> oerjan: well look at that, a GG comic
15:34:24 <int-e> oerjan: right back off track, where we left
15:34:39 <b_jonas> [ /:s=.'cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k'
15:34:40 <j-bot> b_jonas: 29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7
15:34:52 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?{%s?><jFi}m[
15:34:53 <blsqbot> | {20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25}
15:35:03 <b_jonas> [ /:/:s=.'cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k'
15:35:03 <j-bot> b_jonas: 20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25
15:35:26 <j-bot> b_jonas: 29 22 11 20 2 18 19 4 1 10 12 13 3 24 17 21 27 23 15 9 0 6 5 26 8 30 14 28 25 16 7
15:36:02 <b_jonas> [ 20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25 -: /:/:s
15:36:41 <b_jonas> !blsq %s="cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"%s?L[
15:37:56 <b_jonas> mroman: because I don't really know how burlesque works
15:38:11 <b_jonas> I can easily make mistakes in blsq code
15:38:26 <FireFly> And they say J looks like line noise
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15:39:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
15:39:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
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15:40:36 <mroman> !blsq %s="since"%s?m{%s?><jFi}
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15:45:02 <oerjan> int-e: i think off track is pretty correct for that train
15:47:14 <b_jonas> mroman: you haven't modified blsq since last time, when I complained about wanting an assignment statement that has the variable name in the command but pops the value from the stack, right?
15:51:55 <mroman> I haven't touched it for a long time.
15:52:01 <b_jonas> what were the shortcuts for storing and loading variable 0?
15:52:28 <mroman> g<digit> for loading and s<digit> for storing
15:52:37 <mroman> i.e s3 and g3 or s0 and g0
15:52:44 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0{g0?><jFi}m[
15:52:44 <blsqbot> | {ERROR: Burlesque: (_+) Invalid arguments!}
15:52:52 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0{g0><jFi}m[
15:52:52 <blsqbot> | {20 8 4 12 7 22 21 30 24 19 9 2 10 11 26 18 29 14 5 6 3 15 1 17 13 28 23 16 27 0 25}
15:53:26 <b_jonas> !blsq "cB5JAfdsibE3GHlarM794O0YKogVm/k"s0g0){g0><jFi}
15:53:27 <blsqbot> | {BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'c BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'B BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi '5 BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'J BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'A BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'f BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'd BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 's BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'i BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'b BlsqGet "0" >< j Fi 'E Bl
15:54:08 <mroman> ) only works for a single "Token"
15:54:18 <mroman> ){9} is the same thing as { {9} }m[
15:54:35 <mroman> (which results in {9} being inserted between two elements)
15:54:41 <blsqbot> | {9 1 9 2 9 3 9 4 9 5 9 6 9 7 9 8 9 9 9 10}
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16:14:43 <mroman> also I'm not going to touch Burlesque ever again
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16:16:47 <int-e> mroman: how often has this resolution failed to work out so far?
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16:19:35 <mroman> int-e: what resolution?
16:19:51 <int-e> mroman: the one to not touch Burlesque ever again
16:20:30 <int-e> interesting, must be a new thing then *ducks*
16:20:45 <mroman> the chance of me committing suicide is WAY higher than me touching Burlesque ever again
16:20:59 <b_jonas> int-e: never as in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html
16:21:10 <mroman> I was planning on creating a successor for Burlesque once
16:21:22 <mroman> I guess you can go with "once".
16:21:57 <mroman> I'm sitting crying and anxious at my work desk right now anyway
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16:25:24 <mroman> That something is seriously broken.
16:26:18 <vanila> would you like to talk about it in PM?
16:30:23 <vanila> mroman, at any rate, I think everyone appreciatse having you here and I hope you feel better
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16:47:53 <Jander> mitchs suggested here to me :-)
16:49:44 <HackEgo> JaNdEr: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
16:50:51 <Jander> mitchs suggested that my efforts to build a Lego EV3 based Brainf*ck interpreter may go down well here :-)
16:51:13 <vanila> so you're building it with hardware?
16:51:41 <Jander> The program is on coloured paper tape and the I/O is done thro' an 8 bit register that is physical
16:51:56 <b_jonas> Jander: how about the data tape?
16:51:58 <Jander> The interpreter will be on the EV3 itself however.
16:52:37 <Jander> 8 colours on the paper tape - red/green/black/white/yellow/brown/blue/grey = < > - + , . [ ]
16:53:17 <Jander> To end the program there will need to be an extraneous ] however.
16:53:37 <Jander> That is kinda met if the tape runs out as it's grey blocks behind the tape :-)
16:53:54 <int-e> common implementer's trick
16:54:15 <b_jonas> Jander: why paper instead of colored lego bricks? is it easier to print?
16:54:22 <int-e> (read file, add ] at end, parse a ]-terminated block, and run)
16:54:23 <b_jonas> Jander: and where do you store the data tape?
16:55:42 <Jander> I don't have enough different coloured bricks :-) And I fancied building a paper tape reader.
16:56:13 <Jander> Are URLs okay in here ? I have a pic on G+ page.
16:56:35 <Jander> The memory is all internal, 256 bytes of 8 bit unsigned
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16:57:25 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/photos/113373535180413523278/albums/6105388692419944513?authkey=CL2uopH9jZOkEQ
16:58:13 <Jander> Strips of A4 paper cut to the right size. I have no tape spools in this build.
16:58:23 <Jander> Couldn't work out a clean/neat way of doing it.
16:58:24 <vanila> this is really cool :D
16:58:55 <Jander> The I/O bits are on top - the grey toggles. They are all set to 0 in the pic. Bit 7 bottom left, bit 0 top right.
16:59:25 <Jander> The arm on the tracks/rack is used to both sense the state for input and to push/pull them for output.
17:00:00 <Jander> I've still to implement [ and ], but that should be done tonight.
17:02:07 <Jander> Videos of the I/O in operation:
17:02:10 <Jander> https://plus.google.com/photos/113373535180413523278/albums/6103953155744183393?authkey=CL2wgq-Vq6TkhwE
17:04:16 <Jander> That's not BF running it btw - that was EV3 code doing the multiplication.
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17:20:39 <J_Arcane> I think I'm growing to hate Codewars.
17:29:09 <Jander> Right - I'll pop back tomorrow - hopefully with a working model if I get time this evening.
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17:31:26 <int-e> what's that, a web 2.0 version of sphere online judge?
17:34:00 <J_Arcane> int-e: It's in vaguely similar veins to that I suppose, to to HackerRank.
17:35:17 <J_Arcane> Sometimes though, the test cases and descriptions feel like working an actual job: none of them seem to agree...
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17:38:52 <J_Arcane> You get specs that say one thing, tests that say another, and of course, there's two tiers of tests, the latter of which you can't see and often include requirements not mentioned in the basic tests or the description at all.
17:40:08 <int-e> as you said, that sounds very realistic
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17:45:56 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: how does this do output?
17:46:13 <b_jonas> Jander: how does this do the output?
17:46:15 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: It doesn't; it handles things with tests instead.
17:53:47 <mitchs> b_jonas, Jander left, but for output the arm switches any bits that need to be switched and then a sound clip of "Okay" is played, then you need to press a button for the machine to continue processing (i think)
17:53:55 <mitchs> he explained it to me through PMs
18:12:27 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1,-1e-9999)
18:12:37 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1,1e-9999)
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18:12:54 <int-e> `perl -eprint 1e-9999==0
18:12:55 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(1e-9999,-1)
18:12:59 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2(-1e-9999,-1)
18:13:23 <int-e> `perl -eprint atan2(-0.0,-1) # does that work?
18:14:11 <int-e> `perl -eprint atan2(-0,-1)
18:14:20 <b_jonas> int-e: atan2 has a branch cut there, so it uses the sign of the zero to decide which branch it falls in
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18:15:27 <int-e> b_jonas: "does that work" was meant in regard to perl's conformance to IEEE 754
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18:16:31 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't know if these transcendent functions are covered by IEEE 745, but this is certainly in its spirit and it's the right answer
18:16:43 <int-e> (namely, is -0.0 actually the negative zero)
18:17:01 <b_jonas> int-e: it is because the - isn't part of the literal but a separate operator, just like in C
18:17:16 <int-e> b_jonas: underlying was the question why you'd express +0 as 1e-9999 and -0 as -1e-9999.
18:17:34 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse::; $_x=-0.0
18:17:35 <HackEgo> -e syntax OK \ $_x = -.0;
18:17:50 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse:: -p; $_x=-0.0
18:17:50 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "Deparse:: -p" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
18:17:58 <b_jonas> `perl -e use O Deparse=> -p; $_x=-0.0
18:17:59 <HackEgo> -e syntax OK \ $_x = -.0;
18:18:20 <b_jonas> oh, it's probably constant-folded before it gets to Deparse anyway
18:19:06 <int-e> > show (-0.0) -- curious
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18:30:24 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-0.0",-1)
18:30:26 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-1e-9999",-1)
18:30:31 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint atan2("-0",-1)
18:33:57 <b_jonas> int-e: no good reason really. I'm just used to having to write infinity as 1e9999 in perl because perl is stupid and doesn't accept 1.0/0.0 on perl-builtin floats
18:34:53 <b_jonas> there should be a "use float;" pragma to use ieee float arithmetic on builtin numbers, similar to "use integer;", so you don't have to use blessed number objects just to do sane arithmetic
18:36:08 <HackEgo> Illegal division by zero at -e line 1.
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19:01:41 <Sgeo> The base (or salt?) I just chewed and swallowed succeeded in making my stomach feel weird, but not in making my esophagus feel better
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20:47:03 <oren> Most samesteads of every firststuff are unabiding.
20:49:24 <oren> dingdingding! "Uncleftish Beholding"
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20:55:33 <oren> I wonder if there is a language that enforces hungarian notation
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21:00:48 * Sgeo needs to learn how to actually read scientific studies
21:01:25 <Sgeo> Some pro-biotic company has apparently earned the favor of the LessWrong community. They're going to release a placebo-controlled study at the end of the month, I want to attempt to read it for myself to determine if it's garbage or not
21:03:09 * oren doesn't actually know what "pro-biotic" means.
21:03:36 <oren> holdon while i consult the great web of the knowings
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21:06:10 <oren> pro biotics sounds like something that could work... but probably with side effects
21:14:25 <oren> http://www.xkcd.com/1471/
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21:27:32 <Sgeo> pikhq: http://hpmor.com/notes/progress-15-01-01/
21:27:53 <Sgeo> "General Biotics is a recent startup that is producing a pill-based probiotic that may help to replenish gut flora aka the intestinal microbiome. They intend to donate 10% of profits to effective charities. If you are currently unhappy with your digestive system, this is a quick way to test whether your gut microbes might be the cause. (If you don’t have a current pain point but are interested in trying general improvements, you might
21:27:53 <Sgeo> want to wait for v2.)"
21:32:57 <Gregor> Judging by the stream of information on it, I suspect that probiotics are 5% useful and 95% bullshit.
21:33:03 <Gregor> I might be exaggerating their utility.
21:34:02 <Sgeo> I don't think it's necessarily a good sign that GB was supposed to release a study on the 15th, but delayed it
21:35:09 * pikhq would imagine it's quite helpful for a small portion of the population, and has a lot of associated bullshit
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21:37:52 <Sgeo> Are there any tests that could be done on a person to determine whether or not it would be helpful?
21:37:55 <oren> "The first commercially sold dairy-based probiotic was Yakult," -clicks on link-> "Official claims state that the name is derived from jaĥurto (with a circumflex over the h), an Esperanto word for "yogurt"."
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21:41:33 <oren> So Yakult is an English rendering of a Japanese rendering of an Esperanto word
21:43:36 <J_Arcane> Yacolt is also a town in Washington, whose name allegedly means haunted place in the language of one of the local tribes.
21:44:40 * Sgeo hopes MealSquares aren't as wooish... although I don't think I would actually go ahead and replace all food with them
21:47:49 <J_Arcane> scientifically speaking my understanding is that save for certain very particular situations (such as having recently been subject to prolonged antibiotic treatments), probiotics are pretty much crap, and unlikely to make the slightest difference whatsoever.
21:49:16 <oren> This mealsquares thing looks good, although i don't see the need to put the orange juice in the square itself. Why not an oatmeal cookie-like thing with a glass of orange juice based drink on the side
21:50:33 <J_Arcane> I just ate a lot of unpasteurized yogurt when I last had need (spent a month on antibiotic treatments for pleuresy)
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21:53:00 <Sgeo> J_Arcane: was on antibiotics recently :/
21:53:20 <Gregor> "Months ago", biologically, is not recently.
21:53:29 <J_Arcane> I did find it took about a year or two for it to finally normalize.
21:53:40 * pikhq too was on antibiotics recently
21:53:50 <pikhq> By which I meant "ended regimin last week"
21:54:31 <pikhq> Sgeo: My initial impression is that MealSquares aren't *obvious* woo at least.
21:54:57 <J_Arcane> I still occasionally get horrifying gut cramps and other IBS fun, but it's got better over time
21:54:59 <pikhq> And are probably loads less terrible than Soylent.
21:55:06 <Gregor> The most woonatic thing about MealSquares is that they clearly market to nutters.
21:55:18 <Gregor> But the fact that they MARKET to nutters doesn't mean that they're not themselves sound.
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21:55:40 <Gregor> That being said, humans are the most picky of all animals when it comes to food, so MealSquares seems doomed to failure.
21:56:20 <pikhq> J_Arcane: Ugh, yeah, had levofloxacin like a year ago and my bowels aren't normal yet.
21:56:42 <J_Arcane> speaking as a former cook, all these weird soylent-like products horrify me. :P
21:56:53 <Gregor> http://www.nathanedwardwilliams.com/fun/monkeydiet.htm
21:57:14 <pikhq> (for those playing along at home, levofloxacin is one of those "hard core" antibiotics that actually has a demonstrable, absurd effect on intestinal flora)
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21:58:21 <Sgeo> Gregor: MealSquares sounds appealing in concept to me
21:58:28 <Sgeo> Does this make me a nutter for hating food?
21:58:44 <pikhq> J_Arcane: MealSquares appears to at least resemble food though, so there's at least that.
21:58:59 <Gregor> Sgeo: The FAQ is full of "this food contains no ingredients that nutters find offensive because they're stupid"
21:59:04 <J_Arcane> Like, I am quite certain it is possible to distill enough basic nutrients down into that form, but like ... why? At least get a good meal bar or something.
21:59:23 <Sgeo> Hmm, I remember the opposite
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21:59:46 <pikhq> J_Arcane: Some people consider eating and food decisions a chore.
22:00:07 <J_Arcane> Like, this: http://www.mealpack.com/
22:00:10 <Gregor> No gluten, no wheat, "99% lactose free" whatever that means (so, what, it's 1% pure lactose? That's a lot).
22:00:14 <Sgeo> Real people do have peanut allergies and celiac... although they say they're not necessarily suitable
22:00:27 * Sgeo is lactose intolerant, but they say they put lactaid in it
22:00:32 <olsner> pikhq: eating is fun, deciding and cooking is the chore
22:00:43 <Gregor> Real people have celiac, but 99% of people who seek out gluten-free food are dipshits.
22:00:53 <Gregor> (The other 1% have celiac)
22:01:21 <J_Arcane> Bear Valley bars are great, very thorough nutrition content, literally makes you feel like you've eaten a full-course meal, but still tastes something like actual food.
22:01:58 <Sgeo> "health benefits of non-gmo soy"?
22:02:51 * pikhq lulz at one thing here
22:03:15 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Well, it's still hippie shit, of course. But it's pretty good despite.
22:03:37 <pikhq> MealSquares are being made of "whole foods". That is to say, they are trying really hard to avoid anything that's not derived from a plant or animal.
22:03:38 <J_Arcane> (it's also a tiny company who've been around for years; I don't they ever used GMO anything to begin with)
22:03:58 <pikhq> And strongly justifying anything they do use.
22:04:19 <Sgeo> pikhq: better than not using something that should be used, I guess
22:04:40 <pikhq> I especially love how they're justifying the use of iodized salt.
22:04:42 <Gregor> So, salt is bad, MSG is fine.
22:05:41 <Sgeo> Hmm, I understand adding salt if this is the exclusively-eaten food. Is it as necessary if it isn't?
22:05:43 <pikhq> Though of course, MSG contrary to woo beliefs is actually utterly mundane.
22:05:57 <pikhq> Sgeo: Probably depends on other dietary factors.
22:06:20 <pikhq> A lot of people probably get too *much* salt.
22:06:24 <Sgeo> "Vitamin C powder: MealSquares include over 100% of the vitamin C RDA without any added supplementation. However, vitamin C is the most chemically fragile vitamin, being degraded by exposure to heat, light, or basic mediums. To be on the safe side, we've added a little extra. We hope you’ll agree that a little extra vitamin C is a good thing."
22:06:31 <J_Arcane> Yes. MSG is perhaps the single most overhyped ingredient of all. XD
22:06:36 <Sgeo> Is Vitamin C overdose possible?
22:06:38 <pikhq> But yeah, if you're eating this exclusively you *better* have salt in it.
22:06:39 <Sgeo> I know A is possible
22:06:57 <elliott> there are people who take astronomical doses of vitamin C
22:07:00 <J_Arcane> bloody 50 years of ragging on poor MSG, even though it's been in 90% of processed food for at least as long as it's been identified.
22:07:01 <Sgeo> So.. does this mean this might not be healthy if I eat it as a snack + other food as normal?
22:07:16 <pikhq> Vitamin C overdose is possible but hard.
22:07:27 <J_Arcane> Sgeo: Massive bombs of Vit-C basically does nothing. You just wee out the excess.
22:07:53 <pikhq> The major risk of too much vitamin C is indigestion and iron overdosing.
22:07:54 <J_Arcane> Those Emergen-C tablets are almost literally pissing money down the toilet. ;)
22:08:16 <pikhq> (vitamin C is a bit rough on the stomach, especially on an empty stomach, and vitamin C increases iron absorption)
22:08:59 <pikhq> So yeah. If you have a little too much vitamin C it'll do basically nothing.
22:09:21 <pikhq> J_Arcane: And it's just the salt of two nutrients.
22:09:41 <Sgeo> I would buy these, but I need a fridge
22:10:12 <pikhq> (sodium + glutamic acid. Sodium is, of course, utterly essential, and glutamic acid is just a non-essential amino acid that you digest perfectly fine.)
22:10:22 <J_Arcane> pikhq: Yup. You more or less make accidental MSG every time you cook soy sauce, meat, or mushrooms.
22:11:06 <J_Arcane> My favorite thing is that MSG is like the ultimate of 'processed food ingredient' scary, but in every health store you'll find bottles of Bragg's Liquid Aminos, which is essentially just a big bottle of the stuff in tasty brown liquid form.
22:12:38 <pikhq> Yep, cause an amino acid concentrate from soybeans is *definitely* something worth doing.
22:12:54 <pikhq> Rather than just, y'know, soy sauce.
22:13:42 <Sgeo> I woonder if these taste good
22:14:25 <pikhq> Note for what it's worth that they're not crowing about the taste. :)
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22:14:58 <Sgeo> They kind of are "We really surprised ourselves when our prototypes turned out tasty; this was the point that we knew we had to share it with others"
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22:16:06 <olsner> sounds like marketing speak for "surprisingly almost edible"
22:16:39 <olsner> Sgeo: you should try real food, it's pretty great
22:16:59 <Sgeo> Pizza is real food, right?
22:17:12 <Sgeo> I eat steak sometimes
22:17:45 <pikhq> These are both real foods and part of real diets.
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22:22:51 * Sgeo wonders if he can order groceries online
22:22:57 <Sgeo> Preferably in small quantities
22:23:48 <oren> You can in Toronto with Grocery Gateway but it sucks
22:24:25 <J_Arcane> I will confess that grocery shopping is not a favorite.
22:24:47 <J_Arcane> i suffer from some kind of weird decision anxiety.
22:24:47 <elliott> online grocery shopping is very much a thing, yes
22:25:36 <Sgeo> elliott: as far as I can tell, these things seem to have minimum orders
22:25:38 <J_Arcane> so sometimes a trip is easy as pie and I'm home in a flash, and sometimes I find myself wandering a store for hours while I spiral into guilt and shame and internal weeping.
22:25:44 <Sgeo> This site seems to be $30 minimum
22:26:09 <elliott> what are you trying to buy that you can't pad out with other stuff you'll end up needing anyway to make $30...
22:26:09 <Sgeo> If I had a fridge, I might just buy a bunch of food or something
22:26:19 <pikhq> I advise a fridge.
22:27:22 <Sgeo> I haven't had pomegranates in probably over a decade, I want to try one
22:29:47 <J_Arcane> They're tasty, but a pain in the ass.
22:29:57 <J_Arcane> i recommend just getting some pom juice.
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22:35:03 <oren> I am designing a tonal programming language
22:35:54 <Sgeo> Work has a fridge. I could have MealSquares sent to work
22:36:06 <oren> Tone will be indicated by varying the capitalization of the word
22:37:07 <Sgeo> lol "Teamwork OP"
22:37:13 <J_Arcane> unworkable idea of the day: a flavor-based programming language, which code checks based on the taste preferences of the specific compiler installation used to build it.
22:37:16 <oren> E.g. high tone KIN low tone kin, rising tone kiN falling tone KIn
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22:48:18 <h0rsep0wer> oren: You can build an overtone language.
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22:50:10 <J_Arcane> h0rsep0wer: I used to be able to do that.
22:50:17 <J_Arcane> probably still could if I tried.
22:51:20 <h0rsep0wer> For the ones that don't know what it is: http://youtube.com/watch?v=VGbFB91eM34
22:52:04 * h0rsep0wer continues singing (OooooooooOOOooooOOOO)
22:52:44 <pikhq> Overtone singing is *hard*.
22:52:54 <pikhq> I've pulled it off, like, once.
22:53:34 <J_Arcane> I learned Tuvan style from a friend, though I never practiced it much. It's really about hitting the right tone to get the nose whistling.
22:57:14 <J_Arcane> You basically start with a low drone, and kind of work the vibration up until you hit the sweet spot and then sure enough, in comes the nose whistle.
22:57:43 <J_Arcane> I think it helped that I had experience doing that kind of tone because the friend and I used to do an act where we did the human bagpipes.
22:58:48 <h0rsep0wer> ->> <J_Arcane> You basically start with a low drone, and kind of work the vibration up until you hit the sweet spot and then sure enough, in comes the nose whistle.
23:00:18 <J_Arcane> The nonsense word I would sing to hit the zone was, essentially 'Ooowaaareeee' or somesuch like that (can't try it now, 1 in the morning here)
23:00:34 <h0rsep0wer> Like ......ººººººººººººooooooooooooo0000000000000000OCCCCCCCCCCCCC
23:02:51 <h0rsep0wer> Ooowaaareeeeeeeeeeeeouiooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuiooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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23:07:12 <Lilax> Idk what my language will be called but it looks retarded
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