00:00:12 <oren> James R Munkres
00:02:19 <oren> Aha! my Analysis I textbook was Spivak's "Calculus"
00:03:22 <oren> So i confused the two a little
00:04:51 <oren> Analysis II was very hard but it obviated the need to take othermath courses
00:05:43 <oren> it is the end all be all for math prerequisites in CS
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00:09:55 <oren> I wonderif all universities have prereq lists like "
00:10:27 <oren> Take A and B and C, or just take D.
00:32:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, well most universities probably build on things you learned earlier in your course, yes
00:33:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i've lost track of how many modules have gone through the definition and basic properties of a group
00:34:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it may have been massey, i'm too lazy to go down to the parking cellar to find the book and stupid amazon basically has a biography instead of a proper book description
00:35:26 <oerjan> in any case, it had a final chapter on de rham
00:36:20 <shachaf> you're a cohomology expert, right?
00:37:02 <oerjan> if by "expert" you mean i once proved some spaces to have trivial homology in a published paper
00:37:29 <Taneb> What is a homology?
00:37:54 <oerjan> oh and i guess some others _not_ to have trivial homology, by being very not simply connected
00:38:15 <oerjan> Taneb: it's a functor from topological spaces to a sequence of groups
00:38:36 <shachaf> is that (very not simply) connected or very not (simply connected)
00:38:46 <Taneb> oerjan, a sequence of groups form a category?
00:39:00 <oerjan> or a sequence a functors from spaces to groups
00:39:27 <oerjan> Taneb: well by trivial product, definitely, although in this case there definitely are connections between them
00:40:21 <oerjan> but H_0(S) is basically the free abelian group with card(S) generators
00:40:46 <oerjan> and H_1(S) is the "abelization" of the fundamental group
00:41:19 <oerjan> then the higher groups are more complicated things involving higher dimensional properties of the space
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00:41:51 <oerjan> but e.g. the circle has H_0(S) = Z and H_1(S) = Z iirc
00:42:23 <oerjan> while a "contractible space" like a point or ball has both (and all the rest) trivial groups
00:43:18 <oerjan> the n-sphere generally has most of them trivial but 2 neighboring ones are Z, one further out per dimension
00:43:31 <oerjan> iirc which i'm pretty unsure of for the latter
00:43:59 <Taneb> I should go to bed now
00:44:04 <oerjan> and the fact that these are functors allow you to prove things like the jordan curve theorem
00:44:24 <oerjan> (and in fact its higher-dimensional generalization)
00:46:01 <oerjan> shachaf: oh and it's both, assuming the former implies the latter
00:46:54 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably the former means that it's connected, but in a v. complicated way
00:46:54 <oerjan> erm s/card(S)/card(components of S)/ above there
00:47:51 <oerjan> shachaf: well they were connected indeed
00:49:09 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if that was part of it
00:49:54 <oerjan> they had a quotient space that was basically a product of infinitely many circles
00:50:52 <oerjan> this was just one space in particular, the simple topological measures on a torus
00:53:33 <oerjan> but i don't remember that the space was necessarily connected
00:54:16 <oerjan> i don't think we had enough control to say that
00:56:07 <Jafet> @ask mroman You just get a log-normal distribution
00:57:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> while a "contractible space" like a point or ball has both (and all the rest) trivial groups
00:58:51 <oerjan> right, i get confused about the H_0 vs. reduced H_0 thing
00:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it only changes H_0 yet it's treated like a property of the entire sequence of homology groups
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01:44:23 <^v> i missed the soak
01:47:12 <zzo38> It says that "nc -e" is dangerous; what dangers are there exactly?
01:49:22 <zzo38> Is it safe if the program you are running is safe?
01:49:48 <Jafet> The usual dangers with allowing people to connect to your machine and run programs, probably.
01:50:05 <oerjan> nc here doesn't have -e but its man page has a comment "Be cautious here because opening a port and let anyone connected execute arbitrary command on your site is DANGEROUS."
01:50:44 <oerjan> (in the part suggesting how to get around the lack of -e)
01:51:04 <zzo38> But can't you specify what program you want to run? They won't necessarily execute arbitrary commands in this way isn't it?
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01:53:15 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: people used to run nc -e /bin/bash anyway.
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02:23:03 <pikhq> zzo38: nc -e inetd-style-httpd would be just fine I imagine.
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02:51:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41709&oldid=40821 * 71.10.94.116 * (+205) /* Print value of cell x as number */
02:59:18 <oerjan> surely we have that already?
02:59:34 <pikhq> Probably a tweak if it isn't a bad edit.
03:01:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41710&oldid=41709 * Oerjan * (+2) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */ Wrap line
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03:04:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41711&oldid=41710 * Oerjan * (+8) /* Print value of cell x as number */ cell size
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03:21:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41712&oldid=41711 * 71.10.94.116 * (+254) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
03:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41713&oldid=41712 * 71.10.94.116 * (+6) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:36:09 <Lilax> I wonder if the ::bb:: thing for bolding would work for irc
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03:38:09 <Lilax> Place to use bots?
03:39:13 <MDude> Was jsut guessing since I figured that's how channel names worked.
03:39:25 <MDude> And then joined right before you.
03:40:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41714&oldid=41713 * 71.10.94.116 * (+58) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:43:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41715&oldid=41714 * 71.10.94.116 * (+193) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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03:49:15 <Lilax> nvm where's that calculation bot
03:49:48 <oerjan> Lilax: bold is triggered with a ctrl-B character, you probably need to escape it in your client somehow to insert it
03:50:27 <oerjan> (if you didn't see bold in bold there, your client doesn't support it)
03:51:06 <oerjan> Lilax: your calculation may be timing out
03:51:22 <oerjan> although, why hasn't it already
03:51:27 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
03:52:10 <oerjan> > let f n = f(n+1) in f 1
03:52:37 <oerjan> hm that timed out, 10^10^100 must be doing something that gets even that to fail
03:53:26 <oerjan> @ask int-e do you know why > 10^10^100 times out without giving any message?
03:54:15 <shachaf> oerjan: It happens in GMP, I guess?
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03:54:24 <shachaf> Something about uninterruptible calls or who knows.
03:54:33 <shachaf> It behaves differently in ghci too.
03:54:57 <oerjan> basically GMP doesn't give any error on overflow?
03:55:18 <oerjan> shouldn't that be larger than memory size?
03:55:28 <shachaf> (^) uses repeated squaring
03:55:42 <oerjan> the _result_ is still larger than memory size, eventually
03:55:52 <shachaf> Sure, but presumably it times out before reaching that.
03:56:04 <shachaf> (^) is implemented in Haskell
03:56:08 <shachaf> It's just using GMP multiplication.
03:56:27 <oerjan> Lilax: i know it is large
03:56:34 <Lilax> And I don't think any bot can handle that
03:56:56 <oerjan> Lilax: well it couldn't handle 10^1000000000000 either
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03:57:31 <oerjan> which i was trying to make big enough to outrun memory, but not by too many magnitudes
03:57:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
03:58:06 <oerjan> shachaf: it doesn't have your extension :(
03:58:27 <oerjan> Lilax: i was just checking if it could use e-notation for Integers
03:58:30 <shachaf> oerjan: i was about to complain to int-e
03:58:36 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
03:58:38 <oerjan> shachaf made an extension to ghc for it
03:58:40 <shachaf> > let x :: Integer; x = 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 in x*x
03:58:56 <Sgeo> This website has profiles that let users have an about string. If no about string is entered, it defaults to "I love Internet Explorer."
03:58:57 <shachaf> er, i forgot the 1 at the beginning
03:59:22 <Lilax> implementing the e isn't hard
03:59:43 <shachaf> what are you even doing, Lilax
03:59:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i sincerely doubt it errors out at anything that small, sine i've calculated factorials of numbers > 100000 before
04:00:15 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, that's not very many bits at all
04:00:40 <Lilax> how many bits can lambdabot handle before a crash
04:00:46 <shachaf> anyway what i thought was happening was a timeout in gmp code
04:00:57 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:01:12 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:02:16 <shachaf> oerjan: so what's with tensors twh
04:02:48 <shachaf> i feel like listening to physicists is the worst way to learn things
04:02:49 <lambdabot> (6,1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:03:00 <lambdabot> (7,1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
04:04:23 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:04:31 <oren> tensor means a vector, matrix, or any number of dimensions
04:05:03 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:05:43 <shachaf> oren: i keep being told that's a terrible definition
04:05:44 <Lilax> in the 10^10^8 - 9 areas
04:05:54 <shachaf> except by physicists, and who trusts them
04:06:32 <Lilax> I apparently can't read
04:07:45 <oerjan> > logBase 256 10 * 10^9
04:07:51 <shachaf> that second result was enlightening hth
04:08:30 <oerjan> but less than a gigabyte
04:11:59 <oerjan> shachaf: you can take tensor products of vector spaces, that's a start
04:13:21 <oerjan> shachaf: the tensor product of two vector spaces is defined by the universal property wrt. bilinear maps from them
04:13:22 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^26))
04:13:23 <shachaf> and those are defined as a left adjoint to the internal hom
04:13:35 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^27))
04:13:37 <shachaf> or what you said, which is p. close to the same thing
04:13:43 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:13:59 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^28))
04:14:02 <oerjan> istr something like all universal properties are adjoints
04:14:04 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:14:14 <mitchs> > length (show (2^2^29))
04:14:24 <oerjan> if you look at them the right way
04:14:28 <lambdabot> mueval: signalProcess: permission denied (Operation not permitted)
04:15:18 <shachaf> oerjan: well, we're talking about a slightly different one here, with (A ⊸ (B ⊸ C)) ~ (A ⊗ B ⊸ C)
04:15:28 <shachaf> but it's the same idea at any rate
04:15:48 <shachaf> a linear map from the tensor product is like a bilinear map from the cartesian product. or something
04:16:22 <shachaf> this is nicer than talking about multidimensional arrays but doesn't give me much intuition
04:17:11 <oerjan> i see a number of blank squares, and am not sure if you mean them all to be tensor products because then you're just saying associativity
04:17:23 <shachaf> (A -o (B -o C)) ~ (A (x) B -o C)
04:18:34 <oerjan> i suppose the left is the same as the set of bilinear maps from A and B to C
04:18:58 <shachaf> it's funny because usually you define the cartesian product first and then define exponentials in terms of it
04:19:08 <shachaf> but here you start with the internal hom
04:20:38 <shachaf> anyway, so i should get some intuition for this operation
04:20:44 <oerjan> the subspaces of hilbert spaces are said to satisfy the orthomodular law
04:20:57 <shachaf> e.g. they say that if V and W are n- and m- dimensional, V(x)W is nm-dimensional
04:21:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you know for that looking at bases might actually be simplest
04:22:12 <oerjan> a basis for V(x)W can simply be pairs of basis elements for V and W
04:22:45 <oerjan> and then you can check that that fulfils the universal property
04:24:27 <shachaf> makes some sense, since it's linear in both of them separately
04:26:10 <oerjan> might wonder if you can show point-freely that the tensor product of the free vector spaces on sets S and T is a free vector space on S x T
04:26:40 <oerjan> perhaps that holds more generally than vector spaces
04:27:17 * oerjan leaves this to you as the CT expert btw
04:28:14 <shachaf> what is the "more general" version of tensor product
04:28:35 <shachaf> left adjoint to the internal hom?
04:28:53 <shachaf> hmm, there's no general definition of internal hom
04:29:31 <oerjan> no, but you could assume that it exists and try to prove it from that?
04:29:44 <shachaf> what properties would it have
04:29:55 <shachaf> presumably you're not taking any ol' monoidal category
04:30:16 * oerjan is actually rather weak on monoidal categories hth hth
04:31:09 <oerjan> i keep forgetting that the script doesn't work with actions
04:31:20 <shachaf> why don't you just turn the script off twh
04:32:07 <shachaf> anyway monoidal category just means you have a "product" bifunctor with an identity in the obvious way
04:32:51 <oerjan> anyway for the inner hom you want exponentials no?
04:33:29 <shachaf> well, exponentials are right adjoint to cartesian product
04:33:36 <shachaf> i mean categorical product. whatever it's called
04:33:39 <shachaf> that's not the same as tensor product
04:34:56 <oerjan> ok maybe it's not easy to generalize
04:35:27 <shachaf> it would be a good generalization if it is
04:37:47 <shachaf> anyway, so this tensor product thing exists, great
04:39:09 <shachaf> and an tensor on V is defined to be V(x)V(x)...(x)V(x)V(x)V*(x)V*(x)...(x)V*(x)V*
04:39:24 <shachaf> an (n,m)-tensor, where the number of Vs is n and the number of V*s is m
04:39:46 <oren> My understanding is: basically the tensor has two types of indexes, the covariant ones which are summed over upon application, and the contravariant which are not.
04:40:22 <shachaf> what are indexes and application and summing and so on
04:40:42 <oerjan> i think he's referring to einstein notation
04:40:51 <oren> indexes are the dimensions of the multidimensional array
04:40:54 <oerjan> which is _very_ coordinate based
04:41:05 <shachaf> i'm not talking about multidimensional arrays right now hth
04:41:07 <oerjan> also does implicit summation
04:41:16 <shachaf> einstein notation always looked like scow to me anyway
04:41:33 <shachaf> maybe it's a convenient notation when you're doing things but not convenient for figuring out what they mean
04:42:09 <shachaf> so V* = (V -> F), where F is our field, right?
04:42:24 <shachaf> why do we distinguish between covariant and contravariant Vs, given that they're isomorphic?
04:43:07 <oerjan> shachaf: because you want V and V* to live in the tangent bundle on a manifold
04:43:37 <oren> because the covariant ones are summed over, like the horizontal of a matrix,but the contravariant ones remain in the result, like the vertical of a matrix
04:43:40 <oerjan> basically distinguishing allows to express physics equations so they _are_ natural
04:43:59 <shachaf> oren: what's with the matrices hth
04:44:15 <oren> matrix is a (1,1) tensor
04:44:26 <oerjan> oren: please don't provoke shachaf with this low-level intuition twh hth
04:44:56 <oerjan> (it's how i learnt about tensors first myself, but still i don't think it's what he's after)
04:45:03 <shachaf> so a (1,1) tensor -- i.e. an element of V(x)V* -- is a linear map
04:45:14 <shachaf> i guess it's a linear map : V* -o V
04:45:37 <shachaf> is a linear map : V -o W a tensor?
04:47:47 <shachaf> so it's a tensor product, sure, but it's not a tensor, is it?
04:48:02 <oerjan> i am unsure of the nomenclature here
04:48:05 <oren> and (1,1). the (n,m) tells you nothing about the size of the dimensions only their number
04:48:16 <shachaf> i'm going by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_(intrinsic_definition)
04:49:08 <shachaf> you can also say that an (n,m) tensor is a multilinear map : V x ...m... x V x V* x ...n... x V* -> F
04:49:19 <shachaf> where you switch which spaces are dual to keep the same variance
04:50:07 <shachaf> how do we go from (V -o V) to (V (x) (V -o F))?
04:54:10 <oren> a linear map from V to F would be a (0,1) tensor
04:54:20 <oerjan> shachaf: use the bilinear map that is simply application of the functional to the vector?
04:56:15 <oren> and a vector is a (1,0) tensor. so V (x) (V -o F) would be a (1,1) tensor (the dimensions add)
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05:00:27 <shachaf> if -o is the notation for a linear map then the notation for a multilinear map must be -ꙮ
05:01:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you might need to use V** ~ V in there
05:01:19 <oerjan> because i don't think it is true for infinite dimensional spaces
05:03:20 <shachaf> (V -o V) (V -o ((V -o F) -o F)) ((V (x) (V -o F)) -o F)
05:03:26 <shachaf> ugh my internet connection is a class-E scow right now
05:04:30 <shachaf> anyway going from that last thing to V* (x) V is presumably pretty straightforward
05:04:52 * oerjan may not have the brain for this
05:05:38 <shachaf> you're p. helpful so far tdh hth
05:05:57 <oren> But multiplying a (0,1) tensor and a (1,0) will only give you linear maps where all the components of result are linear to each other
05:06:11 <shachaf> what's multiplying tensors
05:06:49 <oren> you multiply all components with each other
05:06:53 <oerjan> taking the paired basis elements, basically
05:07:27 <shachaf> are we somehow talking about multidimensional arrays again
05:07:53 <oren> obviously... the tensor product is defined in terms of numbers
05:08:04 <oren> in the field F
05:08:20 <oren> over which your vector space is defined
05:08:46 <shachaf> look we defined the tensor product already
05:08:59 <shachaf> and paired basis elements on top of that
05:10:19 <shachaf> ok, so i believe that a (1,1) tensor is a linear map : V -o V
05:10:47 <shachaf> i suppose that if you choose bases or coordinates or whatever then each element of the matrix corresponds to one pair of basis elements?
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05:17:29 <oren> i suppose you could define the basis of the space of (1,1) tensors, as the set of linear maps which project onto the ith basis and scale the jth basis by the result...
05:18:34 <shachaf> did oerjan leave due to lack of brain :'(
05:19:30 <shachaf> previous statement not intended in the rude way that an observer without context might interpret it hth
05:19:37 <oren> symbollically... E_ij(v) = (v . e_i)e_j
05:20:01 <shachaf> what do these symbols mean hth
05:21:21 <oren> Um... E_ij is the i,jth basis element for the set of (1,1) tensors, e_i is the ith element of the basis of V, v is a arbitrary vector, . is a dot product
05:22:06 <shachaf> wait, don't you write e_i^j or something
05:22:30 <oren> That's for components of tensors
05:23:20 <shachaf> ok you're just talking about matrices here
05:23:25 <oren> E is a list of basis elements for the set of (1,1) tensors
05:24:42 <oren> I'm basically showing we can create a basis for the (1,1) tensors from a basis for the vectors
05:25:45 <oren> although really i dunno whther such construction can be made general
05:28:49 <oren> i guess the idea is, use the functions f_i(v) = (v . e_i) as a basis for the (0,1) tensors, given that e_i form a basis for the (1,0) tensors...
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05:35:34 <oren> then the tricky bit is proving that given a basis B for the (n,m) tensors and a basis E for the (k,l) tensors, that the products of each member of B with each member of E form a basis for (k+n,m+l) tensors
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05:36:31 <oren> in using the matrix notation for tensors we are essentially assuming that the above is true
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06:05:08 <oren> don't worry, I am too
06:11:20 <Lilax> http://is.gd/k2NuAY
06:11:37 <Lilax> I had made 20 pancakes
06:28:33 * oerjan expected picture of pancakes and was disappointed
06:30:18 <oren> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pancake_Stack
06:31:10 <shachaf> oerjan: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq4287y4CJ1qmqpiro1_1280.jpg hth
06:33:00 <oerjan> does someone want a pancake / while we've still got 'em?
06:34:08 <oerjan> i think you missed your cue hth
06:34:52 <Lilax> http://nuttygod.tumblr.com/image/108806826655
06:34:56 <Sgeo> Hey, it's an English-like esolang that isn't a BF derivative!
06:35:07 <Lilax> ye so I made pancakes
06:35:18 <Lilax> Didn't eat any of them
06:35:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you forgot to make the proper rhyme hth
06:35:27 <Sgeo> Wonder if could make language that looks stack based but is really BF
06:35:43 <shachaf> oerjan: wait is this a reference to something
06:35:52 <oerjan> shachaf: you just linked it
06:36:28 <shachaf> my accent must be incompatbile with that
06:37:25 <oerjan> possibly it works in no accent known to man
06:37:51 <oerjan> Lilax: i'm missing emperor palpatine somewhere between 2 and 3
06:38:17 <Lilax> There's a flaw in the Swedish language in one small town where yes is pronounced as a sharp intake of breath
06:38:43 <Lilax> Man my english is bad
06:38:57 <Lilax> Grammatical skills for typing
06:38:58 <oerjan> it's more than just one small town and wasn't this discussed earlier?
06:39:16 <oerjan> also you cannot call it a "flaw" that's not how language works
06:39:42 <Lilax> was it discussed earlier?
06:39:53 <Lilax> I thought it was in just one part of Sweden
06:40:09 <Lilax> But.. Why a sharp intake for yes.
06:41:01 <oren> Sgeo: In India they bobble their heads side to side for yes
06:41:12 <oren> Lilax: In India they bobble their heads side to side for yes
06:41:15 <oerjan> well _someone_ a few days ago asked me if i pronounced yes like that
06:41:37 <oerjan> (i don't. also i'm norwegian if anyone's confused.)
06:41:56 <oerjan> (i'm also norwegian if no one's confused, but i find that unlikely.)
06:41:58 <shachaf> oerjan: did you answer by moving your head twh
06:42:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember
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06:42:59 <oerjan> i think my response head movements are pretty normal for a western european
06:43:00 <Lilax> Yes is Norwegian is ja
06:43:17 <oerjan> Lilax: it's ja in swedish too
06:43:24 <oren> I say 'ya' in english too
06:43:43 <Lilax> I pronounce exclamations
06:44:52 <oerjan> Lilax: btw the sharp intake is supposed to be simultaneous with a "ja" hth
06:44:58 <oren> 'ya' sounds like no in japanese though
06:45:31 <Lilax> Don't you have to be exactly on point with puncuation in Japanese
06:46:00 <oerjan> oren: isn't that word so impolite that they almost never use it
06:46:35 <shachaf> hey, what happened to the unicode haiku
06:47:52 <oren> well yeah, generally no in Japanese is u-un or iie, but in a dramatic situation IYA! is the word you shout
06:48:16 <oren> you hear it a lot in anime and dramas etc.
06:49:52 <oerjan> maybe someone thought it was gibberish
06:50:20 <oren> is gibberish with a hard or soft g?
06:51:47 <Lilax> Pronounced in my understand jib-er-ish
06:52:03 <shachaf> if only english had glottal stops
06:52:18 <Lilax> what are those again
06:52:57 <oerjan> doesn't it have them before vowels
06:53:14 <shachaf> oerjan: i read jib-er-ish as if it had glottal stops
06:54:22 <oren> shachaf: there is a glottal stop in the english uh-oh...
06:54:32 <shachaf> there is also one in the english up and over
06:54:49 <oerjan> shachaf: ok only at the beginning of words hth
06:55:56 <shachaf> imo the system where it's another consonant is better
07:00:17 <Lilax> the system where every letter is accented and is a vowel
07:02:57 <oerjan> shachaf: i cannot find any relevant removal less than 19 months old hth
07:04:06 <shachaf> oerjan: how about greater than or equal to 19 months old twh
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07:13:52 <oerjan> make the 24 months hth
07:14:30 <shachaf> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/85805e0c2335
07:19:04 <shachaf> wait, that's not evidence that it was a quote
07:20:17 * Sgeo would say he has successfully been advertised to... for a product that doesn't currently exist
07:20:44 <shachaf> Sgeo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limonana hth
07:21:10 <Sgeo> As far as I know that thing you linked exists.
07:21:36 <shachaf> did you read the history twh
07:23:05 <oerjan> shachaf: ah that proves i've search far enough back...
07:23:19 <HackEgo> 357) <olsner> as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 654) <Phantom_Hoover> (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden
07:23:30 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
07:23:36 <shachaf> maybe i was thinking of that one
07:24:45 <shachaf> -ꙮ is my best accomplishment of the day
07:25:04 <shachaf> i'll have to write a linear algbera book to popularize it
07:25:11 <shachaf> i'll also throw in some monad analogies
07:25:58 <oerjan> first you have to make it show up properly in clients hth
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07:27:21 <shachaf> it shows up properly in proper clients and improperly in improper clients hth
07:28:09 <oerjan> i do, perhaps, include putty in the setup
07:29:38 <oerjan> `unicode [MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN][HIRAGANA LETTER YA][SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
07:29:39 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
07:29:53 <oerjan> `unicode [MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN]
07:29:55 <HackEgo> U+0000 <control> \ UTF-8: 00 UTF-16BE: 0000 Decimal: � \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, C
07:30:00 <oerjan> `unicode MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN
07:30:19 <oerjan> `unicode HIRAGANA LETTER YA
07:30:39 <olsner> shachaf: monads are ꙮ? probably one of the best monad analogies around
07:30:40 <oerjan> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
07:31:09 <HackEgo> bin/slashes \ bin/slashlearn
07:31:35 <shachaf> olsner: Well, you have an adjunction, so you do get a monad of some sort there.
07:32:17 <shachaf> aren't you missing a character there
07:32:22 <shachaf> oh, maybe my client is improper
07:32:32 <oerjan> i don't see the last one either
07:32:51 <shachaf> i thought i'd finally made it work
07:33:12 <olsner> shachaf: there's an adjunction in ꙮ? what does that even mean
07:33:30 <shachaf> olsner: Well, defining the tensor product.
07:33:54 <shachaf> I guess you weren't around earlier.
07:33:59 <shachaf> I use A -o B to mean a linear map
07:34:08 <shachaf> So I decided to use A -ꙮ B to mean a multilinear map
07:36:35 <shachaf> apparently unicode has a different use in mind for that character
07:37:14 <oerjan> shachaf: that limonana is some effective marketing
07:37:32 <shachaf> oerjan: would you like a glass hth
07:37:59 <oerjan> i'm afraid i'm very fond of lemon
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07:38:15 <shachaf> i suppose the appropriate acronym to end that question with was "wth"
07:38:16 <oerjan> you can pour some on my fingers, they obviously like it
07:39:41 <oerjan> 'TIL THE WHITE ROSE BLOOMS AGAAAAIN...
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07:39:55 <shachaf> did you really learn that today hth
07:40:24 <olsner> hmm, http://www.pagetable.com/?p=774 - apparently basic for 6502 was written in PDP-10 assembly, with macros to trick it into generating 6502 code instead
07:40:26 <oerjan> um no i've known that song for years?
07:41:06 <shachaf> the joke was how i read the first word of your sentence hth
07:42:08 <olsner> is there a difference in meaning between till and until?
07:42:25 <glguy> You put money in one?
07:42:42 <oerjan> olsner: not that i know of.
07:43:43 <shachaf> somehow that doesn't seem appropriate like an appropriate `thanking
07:44:34 <olsner> if you read glguy as a single syllable, with glg as a consonant cluster or the spelling of a weird consonant, that works I think
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12:11:43 <yeah_right> need some explanation about solving one shit, who can help me?
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12:23:01 <boily> yeahello_right. it's a canal. and the sky is gray.
12:23:07 <boily> (and the sky is graaaayyy ♪)
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12:39:27 <elliott> that parses as -(1 `mod` 5)
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14:08:47 <Taneb> "Exercise: make identifiers as general as possible (but no more so)"
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14:11:56 <int-e> > let thing = 42, process x = x+23 in process (process thing)
14:11:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input ‘,’
14:12:02 <int-e> > let thing = 42; process x = x+23 in process (process thing)
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14:12:58 <int-e> maybe "thing" is too general and it should be "number" instead. I'm not sure.
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14:13:40 <Lilax> oh man i2p is weird
14:14:30 <Taneb> Melvar, it's from my uni course
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14:16:12 <Jafet> > all (\b -> ap (==) reverse $ showIntAtBase b ("012"!!) 24014998963383302600955162866787153652444049 "") [2,3]
14:16:47 <Jafet> Now I'm out of disk space.
14:20:58 <int-e> That's a new one... (spam) "I got your email address from the yahoo tourist search [...]"
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14:22:15 <int-e> ... US$8.500,000.00 ... <-- the two decimal points are a cute touch.
14:22:42 <Jafet> Apparently that's a stock phrase
14:22:48 <Jafet> @google "yahoo tourist search"
14:22:49 <lambdabot> http://419.bittenus.com/9/5/musawalter.html
14:22:49 <lambdabot> Title: musa walter: I GOT YOUR CONTACT FROM YAHOO TOURIST SEARCH
14:25:14 <int-e> wow I got a lot of those today, I should add the figures
14:30:21 <int-e> > (4.2 + 8.5 * 0.4 + 10.5 * 0.4 + 7.3 * 0.3, 25 + 10.6) -- the latter two didn't say anything about how much I get to keep
14:30:31 <int-e> that's in Million USD, of course.
14:30:52 <Jafet> Better check that the offers are not exclusive
14:31:09 <int-e> they're all exclusive and confidential of course.
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14:31:22 <int-e> so damn, I guess I no longer qualify.
14:32:16 <int-e> (there's an exception; the 4.2 figure is one of those refund-for-scammed-people fund meta-scams)
14:33:00 <int-e> And I didn't mention the 450k Euro I won from google.
14:33:10 <Jafet> Maybe you should take one of those other scams so that you can qualify for the refund scam
14:37:17 <elliott> int-e: it says $8.500,000.00, not $8,500,000.00
14:38:12 <int-e> you and I both know that's not what they meant :P
14:39:00 <HackEgo> 27) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 65) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 71) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 124) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" a
14:39:36 <mroman> There should be quotes about meta-quotes .
14:39:38 <HackEgo> 124) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
14:40:00 <HackEgo> 308) <Sgeo> I was more of a pervert in Metaplace than Utherverse <Sgeo> I invented Metaplace sex >.> \ 358) <oerjan> i never meta turing. he died before i was born. \ 359) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET \ 511) <ais523> o
14:40:29 <HackEgo> 511) <ais523> oh no, I think we've managed to mix three metaphors in a way that actually makes sense
14:40:42 <int-e> that sounds like fun
14:42:57 <HackEgo> 431) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
14:44:09 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/KeLuKeLuGames/status/557226441838833665/photo/1
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15:13:51 <b_jonas> fungot, IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
15:13:52 <fungot> b_jonas: what's a typeclass? :) htmlprag?! :(". this isn't; it calls out to rand(3).
15:15:38 <b_jonas> fungot, <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml><w:WordDocument>
15:15:38 <fungot> b_jonas: ummm...i dont know. ummm.....thats what i had in mind when considering the finer points of old crotch blended highland scotch whiskey.)
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15:43:20 <FireFly> fungot: so you enjoy whiskey eh
15:43:21 <fungot> FireFly: but im watching so much sicp stuff that im too young to even be aware of it
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16:15:52 <mroman> Largest_artificial_non-nuclear_explosions
16:15:57 <mroman> sure gotta love wikipedia
16:21:13 <MDream> I'm kinda wondering about the largest known natural non-nuclear explosions.
16:21:33 <MDream> Since I'm farily sure stuff like exploding suns in nuclear.
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16:22:05 <MDude> ANd I don't think colliding planets qualifies as an explosion so much as things smashing each other.
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16:43:12 <Jafet> The distinction between natural and artificial things seems pretty artificial.
16:44:39 <b_jonas> Jafet: http://abstrusegoose.com/215
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18:04:48 <MDude> I'mthinking what distinctions artificial stuff could be the same as what distinguishes art. Its production relies heavily on the use of imagination to project an invisioned goal.
18:06:57 <quintopia> my definition of art is anything made by humans which can be appreciated aesthetically (even if the appreciation is not pleasurable)
18:11:45 <MDude> I figure art used to have a more general meaning, hence terms like artillery and technical arts.
18:12:23 <quintopia> art originally meant the same as artifice
18:12:53 <MDude> I thoght it was jsut the root word of it.
18:13:55 <quintopia> but art might include the utilitarian work of a blacksmith (still might in some contexts)
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18:22:22 <shachaf> oh, 9858 was renamed so my email client didn't show me the replies to it in the same thread
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18:23:23 <int-e> Hmm, I need to check the e-mail address on trac...
18:24:08 <int-e> as suspected, I don't have one. fun.
18:24:18 <shachaf> Also, ccing myself on Trac emails is completely useless, because I'm already susbscribed to ghc-tickets.
18:24:54 <shachaf> But the email doesn't look any different, so my filters still filter it away.
18:25:06 <shachaf> I guess it's not useless because adding yourself to cc is a way of expressing interest.
18:25:33 <int-e> it's funny though, I though ghc's trac used to send me emails...
18:28:12 <int-e> To me the really interesting bit about 9858 is that it requires Typeable instances for (non-data) kinds. That's a new thing, I think.
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18:28:44 <elliott> is ghc even polykinded enough for that?
18:28:46 <shachaf> Yes, though they can already be StandaloneDerived.
18:28:53 <elliott> how would you express :k Typeable?
18:29:11 <shachaf> deriving instance Typeable (GHC.Prim.*) works
18:29:20 <shachaf> (Once you turn on NullaryTypeClasses, which is a small bug.)
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18:30:08 <shachaf> Typeable :: k -> Constraint
18:30:17 <shachaf> Things are a bit strange there.
18:30:32 <int-e> right, there's that BOX superkind, and * :: BOX
18:30:33 <shachaf> But GHC isn't particular, it also has BOX :: BOX.
18:31:16 <int-e> so what's the kind of the kind-level ->? BOX -> BOX -> BOX?
18:32:10 <shachaf> Oh, that reminds me that this doesn't work as well as you might think.
18:32:38 <shachaf> I'm not sure that there's a way to talk about * -> *
18:33:19 <shachaf> Since typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy ((GHC.Prim.*) -> (GHC.Prim.*)) doesn't work.
18:33:27 <shachaf> But maybe that's not relevant.
18:33:44 <shachaf> It's funny that * the kind of types conflict with * for Nat multiplication.
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18:38:30 <int-e> The first argument of ‘Proxy’ should have kind ‘OpenKind’, but ‘*’ has kind ‘BOX’ ...
18:39:28 <oren> maybe the best way to design a language is to make a tiny kernel and allow high extensibility
18:39:45 <int-e> Oh I have not read the Giving Haskell a Promotion paper... maybe I should.
18:40:12 <elliott> oren: standard haskell is meant to be the kernel
18:40:17 <oren> but haskell seems to defy that, as does Perl and C#
18:40:29 <elliott> it is explicitly intended to be a research language to build extensions on top of
18:40:40 <elliott> hence GHC being a far bigger and more configurable language than report haskell
18:40:51 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_A._Haskell
18:40:59 <J_Arcane> I think I'm starting to lose my enthusiasm for Haskell. XD
18:41:07 <oren> so the GHC has a lot of extensions already built it
18:41:29 <elliott> GHC has like tens of interoperating language extensions
18:41:39 <elliott> it's kind of impressive they work together as much as they do tbh
18:41:43 <int-e> oren: yes, it is a vehicle for research after all.
18:41:45 <elliott> some of them trickle down into the report but very slowly
18:42:18 <elliott> basically haskell came about because there were multiple pure, lazy, typed functional programming languages being used for research in the mid-late 80s-ish
18:42:44 <elliott> so they got together to standardise on a common language to build their research on top of
18:43:17 <int-e> And nobody ever imagined that there'd be only one major haskell compiler in the end.
18:43:22 <elliott> (it's sort of a "merge-by-committee" language)
18:43:52 <elliott> right. GHC just accidentally ended up becoming useful and mature and now it's close to the only major player driving the language
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18:47:07 <elliott> (I wasn't actually there, obviously, so my account of Haskell's history may be inaccurate.)
18:47:51 <int-e> Same here. I don't think I became aware of Haskell before 2000 or 2001.
18:48:30 <int-e> And we're talking about the early to mid 90s.
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18:49:04 <oren> BINABC is not a bytecode
18:49:35 <int-e> J_Arcane: Haskell is still one of the better and, more importantly, interesting programming languages out there. But you'll find few people who use it and think it's perfect.
18:50:18 <int-e> (And obviously it has its dark corners and it's not useful for everything.)
18:51:54 <shachaf> it actually is useful for some things hth
18:52:15 <int-e> shachaf: "not useful for everything" is different from "not useful for anything", hth.
18:52:32 <shachaf> haskell is not useful for comparing those strings hth
18:52:46 <shachaf> unicode needs INVISIBLE PARENTHESES
18:52:52 <int-e> > "not useful for everything" `compare` "not useful for anything"
18:53:17 <shachaf> oh, wait, you weren't saying what i thought you were
18:53:21 <J_Arcane> int-e: I think it's the experimental side of it being so prominent, and the "actually doing stuff with it" part that puts me off a bit. It's like, you can get some sense of a programming language most times just by following what people talk about, and most of what Haskeller's talk about is jargonated discussions of whatever new experimental library or combinator or polymorphic parametric...
18:53:23 <J_Arcane> ...anaphylactic supercalifragilistic functor they apparently need to actually do anything with it...
18:53:35 <elliott> that's because haskellers are nerds
18:53:41 <shachaf> haskell is ((not useful) for everything) obviously hth
18:53:46 <J_Arcane> Weirdly, I kinda get the same vibe off of Haskell as I get off of Racket macros.
18:54:27 <int-e> shachaf: ok, I guess that's a possible way of parsing it
18:54:33 <oren> C++ templates are the same though
18:54:33 <J_Arcane> (ie. an impenetrably deep sea of jargon I begin to wonder if I will ever even slightly understand)
18:54:56 <shachaf> is it really necessary to be mean, even sarcastically or whatever it is you're doing
18:55:56 <oren> any sufficiently complicated programming language evolves a group of coders who use it for nothing more than competitive convolution
18:56:18 <shachaf> competitive Day convolution
18:56:35 <int-e> shachaf: Sorry. I'm amazed about the amount of ambiguity in this language they call English.
18:56:55 <oren> convolution here being the verbal noun "the act of making something convoluted"
18:56:57 <shachaf> i wasn't addressing you there, sorry
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18:57:35 <J_Arcane> that was weird. sorry if I started any trouble.
18:58:09 <int-e> J_Arcane: You can still just ignore lens, monads, ana-, cata- and hylomorphisms, and start coding.
18:58:14 <oren> if i make something convoluted, can I say I convolved it?
18:58:27 <J_Arcane> I still barely have any idea how to do basic I/O in Haskell. XD
18:58:39 <int-e> J_Arcane: I don't think you did anything out of the ordinary for this channel.
18:59:34 <int-e> J_Arcane: right, don't listen to anybody who uses the word 'monad' to explain it ;-) just write foo :: IO () (which means you can do IO and produce a result of ()) and use 'do' blocks to string those together.
18:59:50 <oren> So anyway I was thinking there is little difference between an object and a function
19:00:27 <oren> if a function has static variables
19:00:38 <int-e> oren: half the "design patterns" are just implementing higher order functions ... in a language that only has classes and objects to express them.
19:01:03 <oren> A.x(B) === A('x')(B)
19:01:09 <int-e> (things like the visitor pattern)
19:02:27 <oren> Well yah. So what if there was a language in which there literally is no difference?
19:02:33 <J_Arcane> oren: Heresy's objects are in fact actually implemented with lambda closures.
19:02:38 <elliott> where's that thing about "objects are just a special case of functions" / "functions are just a special case of objects"
19:02:43 <elliott> some mailing list post or something
19:03:17 <oren> I am thinking I will call them fobs
19:03:21 <elliott> oren: (it is not static variables you need but closures, really)
19:03:45 <J_Arcane> Things are just functions created with a local a-list and some macro magic to contain and even internally reference their values.
19:03:46 <elliott> note the common definition of objects = behaviour (code) + state
19:03:52 <elliott> a raw function pointer is code, a closure bundles it with state
19:04:32 <J_Arcane> (Things are immutable though, because everything in Heresy is except external IO.
19:06:13 <oren> So a fob takes a symbol (method name) and produces another fob
19:06:50 <oren> because methods are basically functions...
19:07:55 <elliott> oren: you will find there is little "ob" about them.
19:07:59 <elliott> you can write this kind of thing in scheme
19:08:34 <J_Arcane> Yeah, Heresy methods are literally just a matter of sticking a lambda in one of the object fields.
19:08:45 <elliott> (define (my-cons x y) (lambda (msg) (case msg (car x) (cdr y) (set-car! (lambda (new-x) (set! x new-x))) (set-cdr! (lambda (new-y) (set! y new-y))))))
19:08:58 <oren> But methods have their own local state as well...
19:09:09 <elliott> (let ((pair (my-cons 1 2))) ((pair 'set-car!) 123) (pair 'car)) => 123
19:09:36 <elliott> uh, at least I think that set! works. you can do it with a tiny bit more contortions if not
19:09:39 <J_Arcane> (with more magic macros to let them reference the other fields as if they were local variables)
19:10:58 <elliott> oren: here, this is good: http://people.cs.aau.dk/~normark/prog3-03/html/notes/oop-scheme_themes-classes-objects-sec.html
19:11:02 <oren> and the local state of a method can be thought of as an object inheriting from the method's parent object
19:11:33 <oren> Thus it is obvious how it accesses the parent's fields
19:11:35 <elliott> hmph, they don't get to defining a macro to handle the dispatch, though
19:11:40 <elliott> but I guess you don't really need one if you have a self
19:12:48 <elliott> I suddenly realised I'm not being listened to.
19:13:17 <oren> it looks good, but I wasthinking more abstractly
19:13:28 <J_Arcane> elliott: hah. That's awesome. As usual, I 'invented' something that some Schemer figured out 25 years ago...
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19:14:20 <elliott> this kind of function/object duality is a common smug lisp/smalltalk weenie talking point :p
19:15:00 <oren> like we have a world fob, and every program is a series of calls to it with various 'symbols' (defined arbitrarily), producing new fobs, which take the next symbol
19:15:31 <J_Arcane> The main weakness of that method that we've yet to solve in Heresy though is getting the function itself to print in a useful form; in the end I just added a no-arguments syntax that dumps the internal a-list.
19:15:53 <oren> that does sound difficult
19:16:10 <elliott> abstraction and introspection are at odds
19:16:18 <elliott> the trick is to allow you to inspect closures
19:16:39 <elliott> oren: btw, this sounds pretty much identical to smalltalk-72.
19:16:54 <elliott> st-72 unifies objects and functions similarly.
19:18:31 <oren> good, so it is possible
19:18:54 <oren> like, practically
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19:24:31 <J_Arcane> One thing that does make me want to stick with Haskell though, is I do kinda have a strong curiosity about Parsec. I seem to have a strong interest in language design (which in some ways is insane for someone who is still barely a programmer, but ...)
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19:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41716&oldid=41669 * Rottytooth * (+34) /* External resources */ added velato.js, fixed dead link
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19:56:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Entropy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41717&oldid=32751 * Rottytooth * (+241) added entropy.js
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21:20:55 <J_Arcane> "Both communism and OOP rely on the concept of classes. Both generate a lot of fanaticism and overuse this notion. That might be not an accident." XD
21:31:15 <MDude> Well technically, Commmunism is about trying to remove those classes.
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22:18:08 <J_Arcane> Huh. I didn't know about 'it' in GHCi until just now.
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22:52:27 <Taneb> I would like to ask for some advice
22:52:49 <Taneb> I've been asked to run for treasurer of my uni's Science Fiction and Fantasy society
22:53:02 <Taneb> But I am already treasurer for the Computer Science society, and mean to continue
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22:53:12 <Taneb> I am not sure if I can handle the workload of both
22:55:23 <FireFly> J_Arcane: that's pretty common for different languages' REPLs, so it's worthwhile to try it elsewhere too
22:56:59 <FireFly> Hm... or at least, that's what I recall, but trying it out now I'm not sure where I saw it apart from ghci...
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22:58:21 <J_Arcane> FireFly: I've seen it in type errors from time to time, but was never clear what it meant.
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23:05:01 <CrazyM4n> Taneb: what do you even do as treasurer lol
23:05:21 <CrazyM4n> it can't be that hard to take on two at once, it's an honor too
23:05:24 <Taneb> CrazyM4n, go to the student union with reciepts, and accept membership fees
23:05:30 <Taneb> And turn up to events
23:07:11 <CrazyM4n> hmm, the only thing I'd be worried about is conflicting events
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23:47:07 <FireFly> Taneb: you could take all the money from both and flee to a faraway country
23:47:26 <Taneb> I suspect my morals would prevent me
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