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00:10:55 <boily> going pretty smooth. laundry, soup, freshly ground coffee, grocery, minecraft, unpronounceable vietnamese food, and a gin and tonic.
00:11:01 <boily> how's life on your end?
00:12:18 <quintopia> ended the evening with tapas, sangria, and sweet delicious latte
00:12:55 <Taneb> quintopia, how did you end up in a spanner?
00:13:14 <boily> ¡oh! ¿en qué lugar estás?
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00:13:33 <quintopia> by being unable to type an enyay on this keyboard taneb
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00:14:06 <quintopia> tomorrow a tour of sagrada familia before boarding a cruise
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00:14:33 <boily> quintopia: so you're in the North. how's the weather there? is it cold?
00:14:53 * boily misses having a café con leche in the morning...
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00:18:09 <Taneb> I've never been to mainland Spain
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00:18:41 <boily> back in August when we were in Andalusia the Atlantic Ocean was warmer than the Mediterranean, so probably the Canaries will be not as cold. maybe.
00:18:54 <boily> Taneb: you should. it's quite nice!
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00:23:04 <Taneb> boily, I'll be going on my first holiday without parents this summer, hopefully, but that's to Italy
00:26:37 <Taneb> I'm trying to learn the language as well as I can, but I am not doing much better than "Il uomo mangia un pollo"
00:26:45 <Taneb> And that's wrong, anyway
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00:27:59 * Taneb is not very good at languages
00:28:09 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
00:28:18 * boily points to the Man Eating Chicken part ↑
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00:29:32 <boily> you don't have to be good at languages. please, thank you, and how to eat chicken are the most important parts.
00:33:11 <Taneb> I... did not mean to say "Man eating chicken". I was going for egg, but L'uomo mangia l'uovo sounds silly
00:35:35 <Taneb> So I went for the first foodstuff I could think of
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00:53:00 <quintopia> italy is good. i took my first nonparental tour there as well
00:58:36 <Taneb> quintopia, whence are you native?
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00:59:37 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
01:00:40 <Taneb> East Timor and Dominican Republic?
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01:06:10 <boily> Taneb: quintopia is very mysterious.
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01:43:16 <zzo38> I wrote a few ideas about RULECARD but I didn't write much yet: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/rulecard/draft_version.txt
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01:45:37 <zzo38> Do you have any comment of it so far?
01:46:27 <boily> I should be having comments as soon as the page loads...
01:46:44 * boily is slowly burning his router away with a few torrents
01:50:14 <boily> this sounds interesting. do you have example programs?
01:50:34 <zzo38> No, the specification isn't even complete yet; it lacks a lot of stuff
01:51:08 <zzo38> Does what I have looks like OK or are there some things wrong?
01:51:51 <boily> no, everything seems pretty straightforward. except the unusual "@ ".
01:53:10 <zzo38> WEB uses the same "@ " although possibly an alias could be provided if that is too confusing
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03:33:03 <zzo38> I fixed the puzzle.3 now it is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3
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03:47:24 <oerjan> brainfuck spam, now there's a thing
03:47:40 <oerjan> also, a first, i suspect
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03:49:05 <oerjan> hm requires login, i think it goes back on my queue...
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04:43:04 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> but i mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg <-- that video had surprisingly interesting comments...
04:43:43 <oerjan> or maybe the subject makes that non-surprising
04:44:31 <oerjan> like, i learned about nonmagnetic steel
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05:23:45 <HackEgo> Zefphex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:06 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:14 <oerjan> well you're newly noticed
05:24:45 <Zefphex> Or as it were the nick is assoiciated with lilax irc wise
05:25:03 <oerjan> i can see now i've done a whois
05:25:53 <oerjan> well if i had suspected you were Lilax i would have done so already
05:26:24 <oerjan> or if i suspected you were one of the banned spammers
05:26:24 <Zefphex> You being a cake and all I must forgive you
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05:26:54 <Zefphex> Also how could I be new I set the topic like 4 hours ago
05:27:08 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice who had changed it
05:27:21 <oerjan> and i'm not through the logreading yet
05:27:56 <Zefphex> How many books do you read a day oerjan?
05:28:24 -!- oerjan has set topic: Crêpes Suzette | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:28:46 <oerjan> Zefphex: about 0 these days, i have trouble reading longer stuff
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05:33:54 <int-e> oerjan: you're too late
05:34:13 <int-e> 06:30:13 --- lambdabot has joined #haskell
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05:34:55 <oerjan> int-e: well i assumed since i didn't notice it _leave_, that it was a more longterm problem
05:35:04 <Zefphex> What are Crêpes suzette's?
05:35:07 <int-e> oerjan: it was a netsplit
05:35:29 <oerjan> Zefphex: french pancakes which are soaked in alcohol and set on fire
05:35:36 <int-e> oerjan: so nothing unusual, but lambdabot should've restarted anyway. it failed.
05:35:39 <Zefphex> That's what I was talking about earlier
05:35:49 <oerjan> i thought we should progress from cake water to cake fire
05:36:24 <oerjan> i don't think french cuisine is considered fusion
05:36:41 <Zefphex> Can you speak France oerjan
05:36:43 <oerjan> but if we add just a little mango...
05:36:54 <oerjan> Zefphex: not very much
05:37:05 <Zefphex> I wish to go to French one day
05:37:29 <Zefphex> French looks like the most made up word ever, I swear
05:38:00 <oerjan> crêpes suzette with mango and chili, now that's going to be thermonuclear
05:38:37 <int-e> now why did I get a privmsg from some bot right after saying something here, but from an IP unrelated to the users here. *sigh*
05:38:38 <oerjan> i'd link the minion song but i did so not long ago
05:38:45 <Zefphex> Haunted French pancakes give me the crêpes
05:39:16 <Zefphex> int-e: what did the msg say
05:39:29 <int-e> something about an mirc script
05:40:05 <Zefphex> Someone was just talking to me about mirc script
05:40:47 <oerjan> int-e: well i didn't get a privmsg, so it's not something targeting everyone who speaks
05:41:10 <int-e> maybe the timing was a coincidence.
05:42:07 <oerjan> everyone knows it's spelled lambada hth
05:42:33 <int-e> oerjan: I prefer lambda dance
05:43:56 <int-e> oh no... I had to google... why am I doing this? http://lambdadance.spacebar.org/
05:44:57 <int-e> (at least it's not a cat picture)
05:45:15 <Zefphex> Google calls to your soul int-e
05:45:23 <oerjan> what do you have against the lambdacats
05:46:09 <int-e> oerjan: I guess lambdacats are ok. I mean the 2 funny ones are.
05:46:44 <int-e> (The number is an estimate. I went through them a while ago and most of them just made me groan.)
05:47:15 <oerjan> what do you mean there is a difference
05:47:52 <int-e> funny things are supposed to make one smirk or laugh
05:49:01 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
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05:50:44 <fungot> int-e: but that's not true. no more than four arrow operators is automatically cursed. they will be
05:52:09 <oerjan> fungot: so once you get beyond first, second, *** and &&& you should be safe?
05:52:10 <fungot> oerjan: i prefer the ' normal form' isn't all that good
05:52:32 <oerjan> fungot: i'm not sure arrows have an agreed upon normal form
05:52:32 <fungot> oerjan: what language is this in? ( rather easy with postfix. i don't think
05:53:56 <int-e> hmm, relational databases and arrows
05:54:23 <int-e> I wonder whether these two concepts mix well.
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05:57:48 <oerjan> as usual, the arr function will ruin everything hth
05:58:58 <int-e> though &&& is also a bit inconvenient.
05:59:56 <int-e> (it's telling that its dual ||| is in a separate type class)
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06:02:57 <int-e> (Neither &&& nor ||| work for bijections, that's a something I once wanted to use arrows for.)
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06:06:02 <Jafet> :t Data.Isomorphism.embed
06:06:04 <lambdabot> Data.Isomorphism.Iso k a b -> k a b
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06:21:47 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> it's the The Question. the answers go in the File. <-- wait isn't it the The File?
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06:39:51 <Zefphex> you sure do like to ask people stuff
06:40:54 <oerjan> how else can we get the important information
06:42:00 <Zefphex> Remembering it and asking tommorow
06:43:26 <Zefphex> Oh man you have no idea what I go through with memory issues
06:43:51 <Zefphex> .0001% of my memory is all I can access
06:44:04 <Zefphex> estimations are very exact
06:45:16 <Zefphex> I dislike children of my generation
06:45:26 <Zefphex> So you don't want to pass on a legacy
06:45:29 <quintopia> did anyone else get email about brainfuck golf?
06:45:47 <Zefphex> //doesn't even email anymore
06:46:00 <Zefphex> 10 minute mail is my friend
06:46:22 <oerjan> then i looked at the page, saw that i needed to login, then closed.
06:47:06 <Zefphex> Oh man I don't even know what a good job would be
06:47:14 <oerjan> well the story is plausible enough, seeing the corresponding anagol rankings...
06:47:35 <oerjan> i think both the example programs suggested are in fungot :P
06:47:35 <fungot> oerjan: but they *are* 128 bits. formicidae ignores them, but at other parties people dance just to look at
06:47:49 <oerjan> ^8ball has it as a subroutine
06:48:11 <Zefphex> oh my cod its an 8ball cmd
06:48:29 <fungot> quintopia: hmm... if it uses shared memory it will be " good"
06:48:32 <oerjan> Zefphex: it's not very 8bally, really. only answers Yes or No.
06:49:24 <quintopia> i mean maybe those commands are. i wojldnt know.
06:49:36 <Zefphex> ^8ball should I delete my hack of pokemon silver
06:50:14 <Zefphex> are the yes's and no's on routine intervals
06:50:24 <Zefphex> like yes then no then yes again
06:50:34 <fungot> Zefphex: calling add-hook with it's optional append argument set to true or false with the corresponding item.
06:50:49 <oerjan> quintopia: fungot has brainfuck and underload as its command definition languages
06:50:49 <fungot> oerjan: i have a fnord compiler in sed :p. but the small ones to take to peru
06:51:20 <fungot> ,[[->+<],]>2+2<[->-[>+>2]>[+[-<+>]>+>2]<5]>4+<2[>2-+11[>+8>+4<2-]>+.+12.+14.>+2.<4-]>2[+10[>+7>+4<2-]>+.+33.>+2.<2]
06:51:37 <oerjan> Zefphex: the Yes and No are entirely functions of the input you give, because that's all a brainfuck-defined command can do...
06:52:22 <oerjan> and thus written in befunge
06:52:58 <oerjan> befunge isn't allowed for defining commands in, presumably because it would be (1) hard to give 2d programs (2) hard to sandbox from the rest
06:53:14 <fungot> quintopia: i borked it :(. i hate lambda since i had to restart.
06:53:19 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
06:55:00 <quintopia> ah is not a reasonable error message
06:55:39 <Zefphex> Time limit for question exceedes It is indeed a syntax
06:56:12 <oerjan> `8ball Should I tell Zefphex about HackEgo's `8ball command?
06:56:43 <Zefphex> `8ball Should I delete the s67 port
06:57:46 <myname> ^8ball does Zefphex farts rainbows?
06:57:55 <myname> Zefphex: at least you are not a liar
07:00:47 <Zefphex> If I ever wanted to change my prefix to ^ I can just [@]changeprefix[@]stateadmin=[^] %devnull for absolutely no reason
07:01:24 <Zefphex> I've had steak a couple times
07:01:45 <oerjan> me too! slightly underestimated.
07:01:50 <Zefphex> Why do you have caps on oerjan
07:02:06 <oerjan> they're ironic caps hth
07:02:48 <oerjan> some things you just have to get used to.
07:03:21 <oerjan> EX-TER-MIN-ATE see how nice caps are?
07:03:39 <oerjan> not much of a dalek then.
07:06:44 <Zefphex> Do any of the bots have safety locks that disallow users to use it while its doing something like an update
07:07:10 <Zefphex> I do that sometimes cuz updates are hard to handle if everyone is using it
07:07:24 <Zefphex> Oh man this chicken tastes like candy
07:10:23 <Zefphex> I've lied to myself I'm not even eating
07:11:23 <oerjan> HackEgo has transactions, i think that's more advanced
07:12:30 <oerjan> lambdabot has at least one race condition that keeps popping up
07:12:50 <Zefphex> that's kinda what the %devnull is that I put on the end of my cmd strings, Its not even proccessed by the engine that proccess the cmd its an invisible variable
07:12:55 <oerjan> but i think mostly they just quit for large updates
07:13:44 <oerjan> fungot isn't multithreaded at all, i think
07:13:44 <fungot> oerjan: cf the original paper was ' lambda: the ultimate opcode') cpstk')) a)
07:14:05 <oerjan> so the commands always run in sequence.
07:15:15 <Zefphex> like eg; [@]stuffhere[@]state(userstatus)=admin so [@]stateadmin then what you want it to do in the dev terminal [@]change=[objecthere] then %devnull turns the bot off for all users while it does that
07:15:27 <Zefphex> its really fucking retarded
07:16:41 <Zefphex> I need to stop swearing so excuse me if I do.
07:29:13 <Zefphex> gonna go watch downtown abbey
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07:31:44 <Zefphex> isomorphic data structures
07:45:56 <zzo38> What would you think of other variants of chess rating systems? There is Elo and Glicko and so on, but then what if you use Elo with inflation, or whatever? As it turns out Glicko also involves time?
07:46:23 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast now uses "Planeswalker Points", which in my opinion is stupid, you can earn points even if you lose.
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08:56:41 <J_Arcane_> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8941621
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10:42:40 <Jafet> `` date -u '27 Dec 2078'
10:42:52 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `27 Dec 2078'
10:44:26 <Jafet> `` date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078'
10:45:12 <Jafet> `` $(($(date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078') + 70 * 365 * 86400))
10:45:13 <HackEgo> bash: 5646844800: command not found
10:45:18 <Jafet> `` echo $(($(date +%s -d '27 Dec 2078') + 70 * 365 * 86400))
10:46:23 <Jafet> Why do I have a file with this timestamp
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11:33:53 <fizzie> Jafet: Time travellers hth
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11:47:36 <Jafet> I don't thought that will have becoming a plausible explanation.
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12:20:14 <adu> who's a time traveller?
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12:37:00 <mroman_> although I'm travelling forwards in time
12:37:06 <mroman_> So technically I'm from the past
12:46:13 <quintopia> so the key to being a time traveler is using weird tenses?
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12:57:43 <zzo38> Truth-machine SQL program: with x(y) as (select $input union all select y from x where y) select y from x;
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13:01:20 <b_jonas> fungot, what's your opinion on smartbot3's ascension?
13:01:20 <fungot> b_jonas: well i got summer holidays now so :) i'm writing a funge-98 interpreter?
13:01:35 <b_jonas> fungot, is that your idea of a good time?
13:01:36 <fungot> b_jonas: gambit scheme runs on windows, the way this list will only ever rape me
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13:05:40 <Jafet> zzo38: postgres seems to require WITH RECURSIVE there.
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13:07:05 <zzo38> Jafet: Yes it is supposed to require RECURSIVE, but some implementations (including SQLite) don't require it.
13:07:53 <Jafet> b_jonas: now write the entire bot in the rcfile http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/qw.rc
13:07:55 <zzo38> SQLite allows but ignores the keyword RECURSIVE after WITH. (I am using SQLite so I didn't include it)
13:10:52 <mroman_> and apparentely time travelling causes headaches
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13:23:54 <Vorpal> A weird question: Anyone know anything about open source document databases with good full text searching and reasonable performance for large sets of (English) text data? I place higher importance on the quality of the search than the time.
13:26:54 <zzo38> SQLite includes an extension for full text search; other than that I don't know if it is what you would be looking for or what else is available or whatever.
13:27:46 <Vorpal> I tried with full text search in postgresql, it was rather slow, but more importantly had a really limited syntax.
13:28:14 <Vorpal> I have not tried with sqlite, but I'm not sure that it will be suitable given the size of the data set (several hundred megabytes)
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13:31:08 <Vorpal> This is for personal use. (Denial of service attacks are not an issue in other words.)
13:31:21 <zzo38> I'm not sure it would work so well either.
13:32:40 <zzo38> But I do know that if you are accessing it only from one computer and one process at a time, SQLite works well for such things. I don't know how the speed would compare, but I do know that SQLite is certainly capable of dealing with data of that size, although SQLite tends to work best for relatively small data.
13:32:51 <elliott> Vorpal: lucene/solr/elasticsearch/whatever?
13:33:42 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress has segfaulted on me 3 times today
13:33:53 <Vorpal> elliott, thanks, I will look into those.
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13:34:04 <elliott> (lucene/solr/elasticsearch all being one recommendation)
13:34:15 <elliott> well, elasticsearch is based on lucene.
13:34:21 <zzo38> I have heard of Sphinx but not the others
13:34:21 <elliott> and I forget what the difference between lucene and solr even is.
13:34:33 <elliott> it's the same project anyway
13:34:38 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 7h 12m 50s ago: <boily> it's the The Question. the answers go in the File. <-- wait isn't it the The File?
13:34:42 <Taneb> boily, I don't really know why, it's just annoying
13:34:50 <Vorpal> elliott, both appears to have astronomically inspired names
13:35:28 <boily> @tell oerjan it should tdh
13:36:02 <Vorpal> Thanks elliott, I will read up on these :)
13:37:15 <elliott> Vorpal: of course those are more the search side of things though I think at least some of them have full server things to store documents in
13:37:30 <elliott> but they're not like, fully blown mongodb document databases I guess
13:38:32 <Vorpal> elliott, I would really like to access it directly with a query language (which was the reason I tried with PostgreSQL first), rather than just have a more or less annoying API I have to call from another language.
13:38:53 <Vorpal> But as long as it is reasonably simple to write such a query frontend for it, whatever
13:40:36 <elliott> I mean, these things are used for fulltext search by websites and stuff, so they can probably do that kind of thing.
13:41:15 <Vorpal> Indeed, and I think xapian is used for something with apt on ubuntu and/or debian?
13:43:09 <Vorpal> Hm yeah I will need to read up in detail on these to figure out which (if any) fits my needs.
13:45:17 <elliott> (clarification: by elssticsearch being based on lucene, I mean based on top of, not that it is a fork.)
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13:45:36 <Vorpal> elliott, not sure where solr comes into it yet though
13:48:16 <fizzie> I've had a todo list item of doing the PostgreSQL full-text search for my PostgreSQL IRC logs for a while, but never seem to manage actually do it.
13:49:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, with 8.3 it is super-simple at least, though it is apparently more complicated in older versions
13:49:37 <fizzie> It was tricky when I was doing it for Darkhive.
13:50:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, I just had to create an index like CREATE INDEX foo on bar (to_tsvector('english', full_text));
13:50:12 <fizzie> That was around the time when they were making the then-extension part of PostgreSQL proper, or something like that.
13:50:23 <Vorpal> No extension needed even
13:50:30 <fizzie> Yes, I know it's simpler now.
13:51:10 <Vorpal> Then queries are like: SELECT * from bar WHERE to_tsvector('english', full_text) @@ to_tsquery('hello & there')
13:51:20 <Vorpal> And there is some more stuff you can do in the tsquery
13:51:43 <Vorpal> I did have some issues getting it to reliably use the index when the query was complicated though
13:51:52 <Vorpal> Not sure what fixed it in the end
13:51:55 <fizzie> I think optimally I'd like to have Google Code Search on my logs, but I don't think they've open-sourced that.
13:52:16 <elliott> fizzie: well, they open-sourced the engine.
13:52:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, also google search isn't really good for all of that stuff
13:52:28 <lambdabot> Title: re2 - an efficient, principled regular expression library - Google Project Ho...
13:52:42 <fizzie> Yes, the underlying regex engine.
13:52:53 <elliott> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp4.html
13:53:10 <fizzie> But I think code search involved other things that aren't really part of RE2.
13:53:35 <elliott> right. that article goes into at least some of them
13:53:47 <elliott> it's just good old n-grams, surely you have some code lying around for that.
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13:54:51 <fizzie> I've read the series, but it'd involve actual work, and who has time for that?
13:55:24 <zzo38> In case you need to know now, I did find information about speed of SQLite's full text search. Using it to search the Enron data for "Linux" takes 0.03 seconds, versus 22.5 seconds when not using the full text search.
13:56:12 <fizzie> They still have the code search online for stuff hosted on code.google.com, I think.
13:56:22 <fizzie> At least the Chromium repository is code-searchable.
13:56:37 <fizzie> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch
13:56:48 <fizzie> I've been assuming that's for everything there.
13:56:50 <zzo38> So you see, SQLite will certainly do it.
13:57:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, it is of course an improvement, but I'm not certain it will be that good for my use case.
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13:59:40 <zzo38> Perhaps, but what exactly are you trying to do anyways?
13:59:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, this doesn't do word stemming (I think the term is?) though does it?
14:00:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, as in, treat stuff like "casual" and "casually" the same
14:00:14 <Vorpal> That is a feature I really want
14:00:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, no, it's a *code* search. I think it'd fit my IRC log search types better.
14:00:59 <fizzie> Although admittedly the code-understanding parts aren't exactly useful.
14:01:09 <Vorpal> zzo38, search a large corpus of long form English text.
14:01:10 <fizzie> (It knows about declarations and definitions and that sort of stuff.)
14:01:31 <Vorpal> (long form as in "several pages" rather than "a line of IRC log")
14:02:52 <fizzie> I did something with Lucene, but I forget what, and this was again a decade ago, so it's probably not at all relevant to the Lucene of now.
14:02:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the search engine in something like sublime? Somehow it is lightning fast even with complicated regexes with backtracking for the code at work at least. And that code checkout is over 1 GB of C/C++
14:03:45 <fizzie> I don't know anything about that. But it's a commercial product too, right?
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14:03:57 <Vorpal> Well, sublime is nagware
14:04:17 <fizzie> I have't really looked into it, it's quite possible someone's actually built something more turn-key on top of, say, RE2.
14:04:25 <Vorpal> With complicated regex, I mean using generalized zero width assertions and so on as well, which apparently is tricky to handle
14:04:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, possibly it does something smart to filter down what parts to use full on PCRE on then?
14:05:29 <Vorpal> Because it isn't slow even with back references and so on. (Though I haven't tried the pathological cases)
14:06:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is also ag/silversearch iirc
14:06:20 <Vorpal> which is an open source command line tool
14:06:22 <boily> what is a zero width assertion?
14:06:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm sure it does "something smart", possibly the kind of things talked about in the link elliott provided.
14:07:15 <Vorpal> boily, Simple examples are stuff like ^ or $, but PCRE at least support generalized "(not) preceded/followed by general regex"
14:07:34 <fizzie> The Chromium code search is pretty fast, too, and I think that's quite a pile of code.
14:07:37 <Vorpal> boily, asserting there is a word boundary with \w would also be a zero width assertion
14:07:51 <zzo38> Well, I think SQLite full text search does it. It doesn't do regexes though, but it can do stemming.
14:07:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, talked too much, haven't read it all
14:07:57 <fizzie> Not to mention the Google-internal stuff, because I'm likely legally barred from mentioning them.
14:08:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway ag is fast and afaik doesn't build an index in advance, not quite as fast as sublime though
14:08:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah, you work at google now
14:10:11 <fizzie> Yes, and I think it's uncontroversial to say they have a lot of source code.
14:10:45 <fizzie> A checkout of the open-source Android tree is 50 GB, according to the public site.
14:10:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what do you work on there btw? Anything you can tell at all? Like which product you work on
14:11:53 <fizzie> It's the Android "Google" app, I think I'm allowed to say that much.
14:12:24 <zzo38> Google's HTTP server is defective; sometimes HEAD requests return a 404 error even though GET works, and headerless requests will still emit a header in the response.
14:12:32 <Vorpal> Ah, the thing I disable the first thing I do on new android devices
14:12:44 <Vorpal> And all that "google now" crap
14:12:46 <zzo38> You should fix them if you work for Google by now?
14:13:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, he works on a different part as stated above
14:13:29 <zzo38> Then tell the people that work on that part.
14:13:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, so now, from the inside: Is google evil these days?
14:14:26 <zzo38> I can tell even from the outside, they are partially evil these days.
14:14:46 <elliott> it would be pretty great if fizzie fixed google's http server because of zzo
14:15:25 <zzo38> fizzie: If you don't work on Google's HTTP server, then can you please tell the people that do work on such thing.
14:15:35 <fizzie> I *could* file a bug on it, technically.
14:15:46 <fizzie> It's possible their view on what's "broken" might differ from yours, though.
14:16:15 <fizzie> Do you have an URL that consistently returns a 404 on HEAD but 200 on GET?
14:16:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, I think that would be clearly specified by the relevant RFC for HTTP
14:16:44 <Vorpal> Also who the hell uses HEAD requests except for debugging?
14:16:49 <zzo38> I don't have it now, but I have found it before; I think it was a download from Google Code.
14:17:22 <zzo38> I wanted to figure out the exact file size before downloading.
14:20:09 <Jafet> Maybe fungot knows.
14:20:10 <fungot> Jafet: buy an artificial nail, maybe a few other servers, including lighttpd itself, another address, inside of a language to write a
14:22:54 <Jafet> For want of an artificial nail
14:23:20 <fizzie> zzo38: You seem to be right about that.
14:23:27 <Vorpal> Btw, after reading about codesearch, what *did* happen to the language Go?
14:23:39 <Vorpal> Is it still actively used? Outside google?
14:24:01 <elliott> it's... pretty hugely popular
14:24:12 <elliott> it's used on the backend for a lot of major things
14:24:23 <fizzie> I think it's kind of dropped off the peak of hype, though.
14:24:43 <elliott> you may have heard of docker, that's written in go
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14:26:38 <elliott> fizzie: I dunno, I feel like it's trendy again
14:26:46 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, interesting
14:27:24 <elliott> I feel like Go is eating up a lot of the node.js mindshare as people realise how awful javascript is or something
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14:28:26 <ais523> hmm, does JS or PHP have a larger success/quality ratio?
14:29:22 <zzo38> I think JavaScript is a better quality programming language than PHP mostly.
14:29:53 <ais523> you can sort-of see how the low quality happened in both cases, JS was invented on a crazily tight deadline, whereas PHP wasn't intended to get as big as it id
14:30:03 <ais523> zzo38: JavaScript's probably also more successful though
14:31:46 <Jafet> (What unit is success/quality ratio measured in?)
14:32:27 <Vorpal> ais523, well, obviously, if you want to script in the browser (client side), it is basically js or plugins that are the options
14:32:47 <ais523> JS has made inroads into the server
14:32:53 <Vorpal> And plugins are dying out, slowly. Doesn't work on most mobile devices and so on
14:32:53 <ais523> luckily, client-side PHP is still basically unused
14:33:04 <zzo38> I was talking just about the programming languages in general and not specifically for webpages or any other specific use.
14:33:30 <Vorpal> ais523, I was just saying that nowdays, for scripting in a web browser, js is your *only* option. Which means it will obviously be successful.
14:33:35 <zzo38> Both JavaScript and PHP are usable for command-line programs too.
14:33:39 <ais523> Vorpal: put it this way: a statement that it /didn't/ exist would almost certainly be proved incorrect
14:34:15 <Jafet> I don't think I've ever heard of a web client that ran php
14:34:22 <ais523> especially considering that we're in #esoteric
14:35:29 <Jafet> Non-webserver PHP existed, though (I think a full win32 API binding even existed for it)
14:35:38 <ais523> hmm, I'm finding it hard not to interpret that as "brb, writing a method of running PHP client-side on the web"
14:35:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: Client-side PHP in action: https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/wiki
14:35:51 <zzo38> Yes, there is a full win32 API binding for PHP.
14:36:01 <zzo38> There is also GTK for PHP, and many other stuff too.
14:36:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's used by the unofficial command-line downloader for YLE's (think "Finnish BBC") watch-TV-on-the-web site.
14:36:57 <fizzie> (They're using the Adobe HDS thing, and I guess nobody's bothered to reimplement that PHP script in anything more sane.)
14:36:57 <ais523> hmm, it's weird to think of other countries having a BBC equivalent
14:37:01 <Jafet> Ah, a web client itself written in PHP
14:37:03 <ais523> because the BBC is in such a weird place
14:37:17 <ais523> although, little-known fact: the BBC doesn't get all the license fee funding, all TV channels get it to some amount
14:37:30 <ais523> normally to persuade them to run news programs
14:37:56 <fizzie> ais523: The TV license fee stuff is quite strange. AIUI, you have to pay it if you watch anything describable as "live TV", even if it's just some random live webstream from some non-UK place.
14:37:58 <ais523> some channels like channel 4 put a lot of effort into their news, and I think it's because they get compensated for much of the money they spend on it via the license fee
14:38:25 <ais523> fizzie: it's something like that, I'm not 100% sure on the exact rules
14:38:40 <ais523> I know that streaming the broadcast channels via the Internet without a license is against the rules
14:38:52 <ais523> but watching a replay of a program that aired half an hour ago is completely fine
14:39:31 <Jafet> It's understandably overreaching, because it's designed to prevent people from weaselling out of the fee
14:39:46 <fizzie> ais523: For some reason, the +1 and +2 channels are still "live TV", though.
14:40:02 <fizzie> "Do I need a TV Licence to watch +1 or +2 channels?"
14:40:04 <fizzie> "Yes you do, as you’re still watching live TV.
14:40:04 <fizzie> ‘Live TV’ means any programme you watch or record at the same time as it’s being shown on TV or an online TV service.
14:40:06 <zzo38> I think it also depend if it is color picture or not?
14:40:07 <fizzie> If you only ever watch ‘on demand’ programmes, you don’t need a TV Licence. On demand includes catch-up TV, streaming or downloading programmes after they’ve been shown on live TV, or programmes available online before being shown on TV."
14:40:16 <fizzie> zzo38: There's different prices for color and B&W, yes.
14:41:30 <fizzie> "Do I need a TV Licence to watch live TV programmes from outside the UK or Channel Islands?" "Yes, you need a TV Licence if you watch or record live TV online, no matter where it is distributed from. This includes online streamed programmes from outside the UK and Channel Islands."
14:41:35 <ais523> what's really complicated is what happens wrt TV licenses for families
14:41:59 <ais523> because you only need the household licensed, typically, and that covers the TVs/computers in the house
14:42:01 <zzo38> I have once suggested that you could use encryption; the Y component is encrypted with one key, and U and V with another key; these keys are distributed ahead of time to subscribers and are made public several days later.
14:42:08 <ais523> but then when someone takes a portable TV out of the house, it gets quite complex
14:42:22 <fizzie> ais523: Also I think our rent agreement stipulates we pay the TV license fee, no matter what.
14:42:27 <ais523> it used to be that it depended on whether it was black or white or not
14:42:38 <ais523> zzo38: satellite TV used to use encryption, and probably still does
14:42:49 <ais523> there was a bit of a row because Sky were encrypting the BBC signal and the BBC asked them not to
14:43:12 <zzo38> But does it use a separate key for the Y signal as the U and V signal?
14:43:38 <zzo38> I also heard there is apparently no fee for audio, so that shouldn't be encrypted.
14:43:53 <ais523> also, I doubt that there's anyone who's likely to pay for specific channels in black and white only
14:47:12 <fizzie> elliott: I don't know, and I don't know if it's going to be in the final contract, but it was in the draft we saw.
14:47:34 <fizzie> elliott: Given how vague the official rules are, we were thinking it's not going to be worth it to complicate things by complaining about it.
14:47:40 <zzo38> ais523: Are you sure?
14:47:43 <fizzie> elliott: There's been enough of complications w.r.t. reference checks etc. already.
14:48:15 <elliott> complaining about the tv licensing fee on a google salary seems rather pointless
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14:48:32 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: Client-side PHP in action: https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/wiki <-- oh god
14:49:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that looks like command line, rather than client side browser
14:49:40 <Vorpal> <ais523> hmm, it's weird to think of other countries having a BBC equivalent <-- Sweden has SVT, pretty sure Norway also has something like it, NRK iirc?
14:50:21 <zzo38> It is also possible for a program in PHP to check if running by command-line program or not.
14:50:46 <Vorpal> <fizzie> If you only ever watch ‘on demand’ programmes, you don’t need a TV Licence. On demand includes catch-up TV, streaming or downloading programmes after they’ve been shown on live TV, or programmes available online before being shown on TV." <-- what about Twitch?
14:50:53 <zzo38> (The FurryScript implementation does this.)
14:51:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: As I read it, that's "live TV". But I'm sure I don't know.
14:51:13 <fizzie> Vorpal: And it's a command-line "client", but sure.
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14:51:57 <elliott> why is furryscript called furryscript again
14:52:32 <zzo38> Due to an obsolete version of something called "Seventh Sanctum"
14:53:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have seen command line php stuff before yeah, though for stuff like maintenance scripts for mediawiki and what not
14:53:43 <zzo38> (The reason is somewhat obscure, but that's basically it)
14:53:45 <Vorpal> Not really stand-alone stuff
14:53:48 <fizzie> zzo38: The problem you described is discussed at https://code.google.com/p/support/issues/detail?id=660 where you could e.g. post a comment or star the issue. Though given that it's been 7 years and has 145 stars, I'm not entirely sure how much that would help.
14:54:23 <elliott> furryscript should ideally only be usable by furries
14:55:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, another random google feature request: TTS on Android for Swedish. Would be useful for in-car navigation. If I set it to English where there is TTS support I get much more detailed descriptions from the routing application.
14:55:54 <zzo38> elliott: Well, it is usable by furries, but anyone else can use it too, it doesn't try to exclude anyone please.
14:55:56 <Vorpal> But then the place names are spoken horribly
14:56:16 <elliott> fizzie can you fix google so it gives the results i want ? thanks
14:56:33 <elliott> fizzie can you give me a google-branded pen
14:56:34 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah and also, make them stop spying on people.
14:56:41 <elliott> i felt really hi-tech when i used one
14:56:45 <zzo38> fizzie: I am unable to put in there the report.
14:57:03 <elliott> fizzie can you tell larry page about me
14:57:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Huh, there's no Swedish TTS?
14:57:31 <elliott> fizzie can you ask larry page if he got into web stuff because of his surname? was it fate or did he change his surname to page because he liked web pages so much. was he originally called larry smith or something
14:57:34 <zzo38> And reply #31 is the same one as my problem with it.
14:57:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, not with the default Google TTS thingy no
14:58:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, there are third party apps, I tried one, it crashed when I set it as the system's default TTS
14:58:31 <Vorpal> It was apparently not working with kitkat
14:58:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I know some people on the TTS side, but even if I asked them about when Android's going to get Swedish TTS, I wouldn't be able to tell you the reply.
14:59:09 <elliott> fizzie can you find out exactly how sergey sergery brin is
14:59:20 <zzo38> But there still is the other defect too, which is that it improperly emits a header in the response even if a headerless request is used.
14:59:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: I might mention it's a popular user request (N=1) at lunch, though the chances of that affecting anything are pretty small.
14:59:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it is silly though, because google translate can speak Swedish
14:59:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why the more generic TTS can't, I don't understand
14:59:48 <elliott> union of soviet sergey republics
15:00:13 <Vorpal> Presumably it is online and not offline or something
15:00:27 <zzo38> These two defects I reported are really the only two things I really care about fixing.
15:01:15 <zzo38> Google does a lot of other stupid stuff too but I don't care about it.
15:01:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It does have an offline model. If you go to "settings / language & input / text-to-speech output / Google text-to-speech engine" (at least pre-Lollipop), there's a "download voice data" thing.
15:01:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know, and Swedish is not in that list
15:02:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, unless you meant that Google Translate is online, which is undoubtedly true.
15:02:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, exactly, it probably fetches the spoken line in Swedish from the google servers
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15:03:16 <Vorpal> But since you thus demonstrably have TTS for Swedish, why not put it in the Google TTS system-service provider thing as well
15:03:29 <Vorpal> That is basically all I'm asking
15:03:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think they use the same models offline and online. I mean, resource constraints and all that.
15:04:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Or did you want the online thing as an Android TTS engine?
15:04:56 <Vorpal> Ah, yeah I want offline model, since often I'm in areas with no mobile coverage, or only GSM when I'm driving
15:05:20 <Vorpal> But I guess that could explain it
15:05:52 <fizzie> Since it was a publicly posted thing, I think I can mention that Google was looking for a fixed-time (12 months?) contract person to work on TTS on Finnish. The message was passed around on our university group lists a month or so ago.
15:05:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, if it tried to download the driving instructions on 1 bar of GSM, I would be way past the turn before it finished :P
15:06:21 <fizzie> Given that they do have Finnish TTS online, it sounds quite possible it would be about offline TTS, since Android doesn't do Finnish either.
15:06:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, Hm, interesting, Isn't Finnish a smaller language than Swedish though? But I guess there could be linguistic reasons that makes it higher priority
15:06:47 <fizzie> And given that Sweden is a bigger market than Finland, it wouldn't surprise me if they actually had a plan for this.
15:07:03 <fizzie> But this is all unverified. I could find out, but then I'd have to stop talking.
15:10:21 <fizzie> elliott: I can give you a Google-branded pen if I ever meet you (and happen to have one on me).
15:10:38 <fizzie> I got four as a souvenir from the job interview.
15:10:59 <fizzie> I don't know about the rest.
15:11:12 <elliott> well one out of ~twenty isn't bad
15:11:29 <elliott> are we going to meet up for you to give me a google pen and two old unix boxes
15:13:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is so special about these pens? Apart from the brand? Are they the usual bad quality of every other branded pen?
15:14:09 <Vorpal> (as in, non-pen-manufacture-branded)
15:20:08 <Vorpal> Apparently most of the reddit server side code is open source? Huh.
15:35:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Qq]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41723 * InputUsername * (+283) Added a question
15:36:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Qq]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41724&oldid=41723 * InputUsername * (-283) I am stupid. Never mind. Removed question.
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15:39:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think they were above-average, but nothing to write home about. (Perfectly okay for writing home *with*, though.)
15:42:31 <fizzie> The set of four I got were a set in the Google colours (blue, green, red, yellow), and then I had a more vaguely coloured one (teal, maybe?) from a Google event at the university few years back.
15:43:06 <fizzie> I think we have an employee discount in the Google merchandize store.
15:43:37 <fizzie> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/ <- this thing.
15:44:18 <elliott> random people can just buy google-branded merch?
15:45:28 <elliott> why would you want this google merch
15:45:47 <elliott> We streamline our web products, so why not streamline your capuccino cup? This mug has an insulated band around, cleverly negating the need for a handle. With white Google logo printed onto the coloured band.
15:46:17 <elliott> Cover your laptop in stickers. Cover your friend in stickers. Cover your cat in stickers (note: we do not recommend doing this). The countless ways to use these super cool stickers are waiting for you explore. The sheet contains 13 stickers of the full color Google logo.
15:46:31 <elliott> These fabulously fresh, beautifully presented mints make as good a gift as they do enjoyed by you alone. Each individual mint comes printed with the mulit-coloured Google logo, and it's also on the lid, so you can re-use the tin when the mints are gone!
15:47:36 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Chrome/15+Chrome+Squishable.axd
15:48:09 <nys> finally chrome can be squishably soft
15:48:46 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Android/Sportula+3-Piece+Set.axd?cid=689&page_no=3 what the fuck
15:49:05 <elliott> you could furnish an entire house with just google merchandise
15:49:37 <elliott> https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Brands/Android/Android+Meat+Brander.axd?cid=689&page_no=5
15:50:01 <elliott> there was a "MEGA Android" for $70 but Sorry, we can't find that page! It might be an old link or maybe it moved.
15:50:02 <mroman_> On a scale from 0.0 to 1.0 how good is zero dark thirty
15:51:12 <elliott> (unless you're a fan of torture porn propaganda)
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15:56:24 <J_Arcane_> :D https://www.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Fun/Go+Gopher+Blue+Squishable.axd?cid=1399
15:56:28 <Vorpal> <elliott> We streamline our web products, so why not streamline your capuccino cup? This mug has an insulated band around, cleverly negating the need for a handle. With white Google logo printed onto the coloured band. <-- we have coffee cups like that at work, I wouldn't recommend them, doesn't really work
15:57:04 <J_Arcane_> (I don't know Go at all, though I'm mildly curious about it, but I love the weird gopher logo)
15:57:40 <elliott> J_Arcane_: that is one of the few products in this store I wouldn't be terrified/vaguely repulsed to find in my house
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15:58:08 <J_Arcane_> Yeah. Most of it's just stuff that no one will ever own unless they get it free for working at Google.
15:58:19 <J_Arcane_> But that's just adorable, in a horrifying sort of way.
15:59:06 <mroman_> elliott: You mean it tries to justify torture?
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16:24:40 <mroman_> although from a visual standpoint Saw is much worse
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16:58:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, which postgresql python module did you use for the irc log import?
16:59:04 <Vorpal> Also where is the code for it? I know I have it somewhere, but I'm not sure where
16:59:46 <Vorpal> Also elliott I got a topic you might be interested in: the unsuitability of file systems.
17:00:25 <Vorpal> elliott, basically, I find that the hierarchical model of file systems breaks down for your home directory, it starts out all nice and clean on a new install, and a few months down the line it is a mess.
17:00:42 <Vorpal> Even if you try to keep it sorted
17:00:59 <Vorpal> So I'm now wondering what a better option would be
17:05:07 <Vorpal> Hm, some sort of tag cloud thingy perhaps?
17:06:07 <Vorpal> You could have "pockets" of hierarchy (like a project with source code) as entries in the tag cloud. And the tag cloud itself, could still be found under /home/name
17:06:53 <Vorpal> It would be hell to make it interoperate with existing unix tools though
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17:35:39 <int-e> Heh, I think tails is trying to bait me into revealing my "Reversed 8bit numbers" solution, he submitted improvements to two related problems.
17:37:57 <int-e> He's not that far away anyway, I expect he'll get there.
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17:46:23 <Vorpal> HTML5 parsing is a mess...
17:49:43 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/hs-shenanigans/blob/master/html.hs <- you should use CoolHTML
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17:50:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: psycopg2, and I don't think I've shared my log stuff anywhere, it's all pretty ad-hoc.
17:52:37 <int-e> mroman_: that's closer to xml than html. html allows many end tags (and even some start tags) to be omitted.
17:53:40 <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags
17:53:59 <oerjan> hm <p> would be a commonly omitted start tag, no
17:54:46 <oerjan> because it's used as if it's a delimiter despite theoretically being a tag surrounding the whole paragraph
17:55:19 <int-e> http://104.167.104.168/index.html is valid HTML5, for example.
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17:57:09 <int-e> (and the <p> can be omitted, too. isn't that fun)
17:57:44 <int-e> though obviously that results in a different parse tree
17:57:50 <oerjan> why is there a stupid "Add developer-view styles" button hovering (too close too) in the middle of the page
17:58:31 <oerjan> even w3.org cannot design properly :(
17:58:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm you shared some code with me, then I rewrote part of it iircf
17:59:21 <oerjan> <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/syntax.html#optional-tags
17:59:33 <Vorpal> mroman_, I'm using BeautifulSoup4 (python) for web scraping, since I used it before, and thus know it.
17:59:54 <int-e> oerjan: looks fine without javascript? let me enable it...
18:00:02 <Vorpal> mroman_, Also the document is not well-formed
18:00:36 <int-e> oerjan: I see. Still, it looks fine without Javascript, so I didn't notice.
18:00:37 <Vorpal> mroman_, the issue I'm facing atm is that it has <meta name="keywords" value="...>, that is no closing " for value. The parser does resync after a couple of tags, but it is still annoying.
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18:01:51 <Vorpal> int-e, I see the button, it is in the top left
18:02:09 <int-e> Vorpal: funny, it appeared near the top right for me
18:02:16 <Vorpal> Err yeah top right I meant
18:02:45 <int-e> right, iceweasel, debian rebranded firefox, here
18:03:02 <Vorpal> Same in chromium though
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18:04:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, the issue with psycopg2 is that it doesn't appear to support prepared statements
18:05:03 <Vorpal> Which is rather annoying
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18:06:33 <int-e> oerjan: ok, one Haskell entry for Evil Numbers, but it doesn't feel optimal yet
18:07:47 <Vorpal> int-e, what constitutes an evil number?
18:08:04 <int-e> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Evil+Numbers -- I guess it's a pun on "even"
18:08:48 <oerjan> it's also the indices of 0's in the thue-morse sequence, i think
18:09:14 * oerjan now waits for int-e to use that to shorten it
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18:10:51 <int-e> oerjan: I knew that
18:11:03 <Vorpal> Hm how does virtualenv in python work?
18:11:19 <Vorpal> That might help with this mess of modules
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18:15:04 <oerjan> <elliott> you could furnish an entire house with just google merchandise <-- let me guess, someone already did.
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18:20:36 <mroman_> Vorpal: only an idiot writes fail-safe parsers
18:20:56 <mroman_> why the hell did people start writing parsing that try to make sense of illegal stuff
18:21:05 <Vorpal> mroman_, I have no idea
18:21:17 <mroman_> that's like writing a compiler who doesn't say "error"
18:21:25 <Vorpal> The web would have been better if browsers had been strict from the get go
18:21:29 <mroman_> but rather tries to continue compiling in a creepy way
18:21:35 <Vorpal> mroman_, uh, some scripting languages are a bit like that.
18:21:56 <Vorpal> javascript obviously to some extent
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18:22:29 <Vorpal> Though not to the extent of HTML afaik
18:22:58 <mroman_> html parser should've failed hard from the beginning on
18:23:10 <Vorpal> exactly what I just said
18:23:13 <int-e> mroman_: because idiots were supposed to create web pages
18:23:55 <mroman_> int-e: the same way idiots were supposed to write SQL queries?
18:24:19 <int-e> I'm less sure about SQL
18:24:36 <mroman_> no but I thought it was designed for idiots to use
18:24:47 <mroman_> I.e. "ask questions in an 'english' fashion"
18:25:14 <int-e> mroman_: also there's a competitive factor. if a webpage looks good in one browser and bad (i.e. because an error is displayed instead) in anohter, clearly the former browser must be superior to the latter, right?
18:25:18 <mroman_> so the html guys tried the same thing but noticed rather than trying to make a language that looks like english they just write parsers that do some guesswork :p?
18:26:10 <mroman_> unless there's a rendering error
18:26:12 <Vorpal> I don't think SQL is a bad language as such, a bit overly verbose yes, but not all traditional languages are compact.
18:26:20 <int-e> mroman_: don't think like a programmer, think like a user
18:26:40 <Vorpal> Though I guess for example Pascal was also designed to be used by if not idiots at least beginners
18:26:46 <int-e> like it or not, there are *many* more users than programmers out there
18:27:03 <mroman_> but it's the web developers fault
18:27:20 <int-e> I don't think they had much choice.
18:27:23 <mroman_> Browsers could have displayed something like
18:27:45 <int-e> management would've vetoed them.
18:28:00 <mroman_> Ok hard to come up with a cool message
18:28:21 <mroman_> but it could have said something like "This website isn't standard conform"
18:28:53 <mroman_> "please contact the web site admin"
18:29:10 <mroman_> They should've convinced the user that it's the web admins fault, which it actually really is.
18:29:32 <mroman_> like they do with SSL certs nowadays
18:29:54 <int-e> mroman_: I honestly believe that it wouldn't have worked.
18:30:38 <mroman_> If browsers wouldn't display your page you would have motive to use correct HTML as a web site admin
18:30:57 <mroman_> The same way you had motive to make your web page look good even in browsers that render stuff incorrectly
18:31:33 <int-e> "designed for IE4"
18:32:09 <mroman_> Although users probably don't care about incorrect rendering
18:32:26 <mroman_> because web site admins fixed it for them by using hacks to make it look good
18:32:48 <int-e> yeah, the quirks machinery works both ways.
18:33:00 <mroman_> I can't say what would have happened
18:33:36 <mroman_> if all browsers would have gone the path of only accepting correct html then web site admins would have had enough incentive to use correct html
18:33:56 <Vorpal> I don't remember if it is firefox or some other browser that when you want to bypass an SSL error it defaults to adding a permanent exception, which is rather stupid I think
18:34:19 <mroman_> but of course, it could have gone the other way as well, like you said
18:34:29 <mroman_> where "displaying incorrect html" is a competitive advantage
18:36:05 <Vorpal> surely it would be easier to write a strict parser than a lenient parser
18:36:38 <int-e> Vorpal: I'm not sure. HTML pretended to be SGML for a long time, which has things like omitting tags...
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18:37:23 <Vorpal> it didn't come from xml
18:37:38 <Vorpal> Why on earth sgml had that I have no idea though
18:37:56 <int-e> Because it was made for people writing documents with markup?
18:38:09 <Vorpal> Isn't it </> you can use to close the last opened tag? And only lynx supports it
18:38:13 <Vorpal> out of the browsers I tested
18:38:37 <int-e> I mean this falls under the headline of "markup minimization", so the incentive seems fairly clear.
18:39:20 <int-e> I don't know about </>
18:40:13 <int-e> FWIW, I like XHTML.
18:41:22 <Vorpal> I don't really like XHTML either
18:42:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yep, that's standard SGML.
18:42:18 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what a good format would be though, XML + CSS sounds good on paper, but would probably turn out horribly in practice
18:42:30 <int-e> Vorpal: you seem to be right about </>.
18:42:36 <pikhq> int-e: "Pretended" hell. HTML literally claimed to be SGML and the official validator parsed as SGML.
18:42:57 <pikhq> The problem is, no browsers but Lynx actually did that. :)
18:43:50 <pikhq> So they didn't even write a strict-or-lenient parser, they all straight up wrote wrong ones.
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18:44:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, I seem to remember lynx didn't handle something else though
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18:44:30 <int-e> And it worked! (90% of the time)
18:50:17 <oerjan> basically humans aren't designed to be able to keep systems elegant without life being at stake
18:50:49 <oerjan> (at stake at every point, not just in the future)
18:51:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LecRAM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41725&oldid=38231 * SEnergy * (-2625) Updated to new version of language
18:52:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * SEnergy * moved [[LecRAM]] to [[CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]]
18:53:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, I worked with safety systems at work and I'm probably under NDA for the details, but that is one of the simplest and most elegant APIs to talk to the devices I have seen.
18:53:38 <pikhq> Therefore we should make automated elegance murder bots.
18:53:48 <pikhq> Commit an act of inelegance and you shall be murdered.
18:57:22 <oerjan> pikhq: can you make them murder people who make NDAs too, while you're at it?
18:58:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, that would be nice too yes
18:58:55 <Vorpal> everything open source
19:01:34 <pikhq> NDAs are inelegant.
19:02:02 <fizzie> </> is not the only silly SGML thing, there's that <FOO/xxx/ for <FOO>xxx</FOO> thing too.
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19:09:55 <oerjan> i think irregular webcomic has been more irregular in the past year than all the previous decade put together.
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19:56:58 <int-e> <oerjan> basically humans aren't designed to be able to keep systems elegant without life being at stake <-- and when lifes are at stake, things usually get ugly, hth
19:57:50 <int-e> ah good, now I have a new target, thanks oerjan
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22:36:39 <boily> /bwali/, not /bʌjli/ hth
22:37:45 <boily> it's pronounced bwah-LEE, with a short EE.
22:38:10 <boily> boiling bwater may be more accurate.
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22:38:29 <Zefphex> so boily is your real name
22:38:47 -!- Zefphex has set topic: Creepy Suzan | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
22:38:57 <boily> it's my family name indeed.
22:39:24 <Zefphex> I thought it was pronounced Boy-lee
22:39:49 <boily> nope. French name.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> it's pronounced as a French word?
22:40:22 <nys> or quebecois
22:40:27 <Taneb> Interestingly I do not pronounce "boily" (not the name) quite as "Boy-lee"
22:40:36 <Taneb> I pronounce it boy-uh-lee
22:41:23 <boily> but I shall remorselessly disappear. food time.
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22:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> is there a way of telling vlc to please stop defaulting to 'discard all samples' as an audio device
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22:43:36 <Zefphex> Sorry I'm not helpful, What's Vlc?
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22:46:28 <Taneb> I'm still sad about Google Wave
22:47:38 <Sgeo> Didn't someone start their own?
22:47:42 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering
22:48:06 <Taneb> Copyright was transferred to Apache and it's Open Source, but it never caught on
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22:51:49 <int-e> (standing?) wave in a box in an incubator
22:53:42 <Taneb> Zefphex, it was an underrated novel communication platform Google came out with a few years ago
22:53:52 <Zefphex> Sgeo: you should just be dissapointed by all Google products
22:54:11 <Zefphex> The search engine is albiet "Decent"
22:54:51 <int-e> But I'm sure it could correct that typo.
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22:55:34 <Zefphex> I am after All just a child
22:56:07 <int-e> There's some truth to this, though. Things do not automatically become cool just by sticking a Google label on them.
22:57:18 <int-e> Ok, but now I have only one eye.... why did I do this?
22:58:32 <Zefphex> So you can watch porn in class?
22:58:59 <int-e> depends on the country
22:59:44 <Zefphex> How much money would it take to cover the entire planet in a wi-fi bubble?
22:59:44 <int-e> If by "can" you mean being allowed to.
23:00:13 <int-e> Ugh, too much. The oceans will be tricky.
23:00:38 <Zefphex> Yes, With tidal waves and earthquakes
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23:02:02 <J_Arcane_> Zefphex: I was on a podcast at the time and we used Wave to organize shows. Great concept, but it could be rather sluggish. I wonder how well something like it would run now that the browsers are stepping it up performance wise.
23:03:08 <Zefphex> Also If only the wi-fi could be transmitted through water expanses like oceans and seas
23:03:55 <int-e> I get 10^11 base stations at ~150m range
23:04:04 <Zefphex> Why does every one have an underscore at the end of their name
23:04:18 <int-e> Zefphex: And no I'm not a cat. Never been one, don't want to be one.
23:05:06 <int-e> Some clients default to appending _ when a nick is not available.
23:05:13 <J_Arcane_> Zefphex: I'm still really suspicious of Waterfox for some reason.
23:05:57 <Zefphex> it crashes on bash scripts and regex
23:06:47 <Zefphex> J_Arcane_: is your nick registered if so Set enforce and the ghost anyone using it
23:07:02 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
23:08:18 <int-e> wait "it crashes on bash scripts" - I thought this was supposed to be a web browser?
23:11:34 <Zefphex> That's what someone told me when they used it.
23:11:44 <Zefphex> I personally have never used it.
23:12:00 <int-e> . o O ( It was probably a subtle case of browser bashing. )
23:12:27 <Zefphex> Be a true warrior and use Msn browser
23:13:12 <Zefphex> Yeah int-e since water fox has somewhat the same code as firefox since its an alternate of firefox
23:13:26 <Zefphex> Or if they had palemoon installed then that could happen
23:13:45 <int-e> Zefphex: next you're going to suggest AOL desktop...
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23:28:22 <J_Arcane> I think I actually kinda hate it.
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23:40:58 <Sgeo|web> The Chrome-inside Opera or the proprietary-inside Opera?
23:41:22 <Zefphex> It'll connect you to the bot net
23:41:25 <Sgeo|web> The latest Opera is based on the Chrome rendering engine
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23:43:13 <J_Arcane> Yeah, it's basically just Chrome with bits carved out of it, and more bugs.
23:43:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:44:31 <Sgeo|web> Tried to say something in QUassel
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23:46:11 <Sgeo_> Can I type the word proprietary-inside without freezing?
23:46:15 <J_Arcane> For some reason I got a bit of a wild hair to try and cut out more of the Google panopticon from my life.
23:46:57 <J_Arcane> This is sort of problematic, because as far as Chrome has fallen, everything else is pretty much worse.
23:47:11 <J_Arcane> DuckDuckGo isn't bad though. It's 'good enough' for most things.
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23:49:32 <Sgeo_> Does Google Cardboard count as too Google for you?
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23:51:11 <J_Arcane> heh. it's not like I'm not a hypocrite here; Gmail is still my main email.