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00:10:03 <ais523> hmm, is this the right channel to post Wikipedia pages which are so specific I'm surprised they exist?
00:10:05 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_castling
00:11:00 <zzo38> Probably not, but you can post it anyways.
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00:15:05 <boily> it is chess, therefore it is the right channel.
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00:21:13 <J_Arcane> are there any esolangs that encode instructions in chess moves?
00:21:32 <J_Arcane> because chess notation looks to me at least as unintelligible as burlesque.
00:23:09 <ais523> hmm, clearly we need an esolang which has a relatively simple mapping between chess moves and instructions (preferably one that ties into chess somehow, not a boring BF equivalent)
00:23:21 <ais523> but the twist is: the program needs to be a valid chess game
00:23:44 <ais523> the hardest part would presumably be ensuring that each piece is only moved from the square it's currently on
00:25:08 <J_Arcane> Looks like the wiki turns up only a couple unfinished and unimplemented idea pages.
00:26:05 <J_Arcane> It does occur to me that a chessboard is essentially 8 one-byte registers, after a fashion ...
00:26:29 <ais523> this also makes the language fail at full TCness because it only supports finitely many programs
00:26:38 <ais523> however, IMO it should at least be curly-L complete
00:28:54 <J_Arcane> That's true. Chess is 'solvable' after all. Now Go ...
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00:30:20 <int-e> ais523: hmm, the 50-moves rule isn't enforced.
00:33:50 <int-e> (same for the three-fold repetition)
00:34:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CBR (Cleverer Brainfuck)]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41728 * BCompton * (+133) Created page with "Should this page be ''CBF'' instead of ''CBR''? ~~~~"
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01:42:00 <ais523> J_Arcane: but Go is already a programming language
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02:02:27 * boily sings «Ban go, ban go, ban go, ban go, ban go dai kazoku ♪»
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04:37:58 <Sgeo> There exists a web browser written in Node.js
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04:40:45 <copumpkin> can't get much more isomorphic than that
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07:54:55 <zzo38> Did you study my Magic: the Gathering puzzle.3 by now? Or you don't?
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08:11:52 <oerjan> has reddit changed its comment font? i suddenly find it harder to read :(
08:16:36 <oerjan> it's sans serif now, i don't remember if it used to be
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08:20:58 <oerjan> actually, i think it's just increased the size of the font one step too much
08:21:33 <oerjan> changing text size to small made it look normal
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08:58:42 <zzo38> A chess rating system with inflation could involve that a game is (e^(tr)) points where e is the base of natural logarithms, t is the timestamp in seconds since the epoch (you can change the epoch in order to rescale; all ratings are then recomputed), and r is the inflation rate in hertz. The system is of course more complicated than just that, but that can be one of the components of a system.
09:00:50 <zzo38> Do you think it can be worked?
09:12:08 <Jafet> Why do you want inflation?
09:14:26 <oerjan> everyone knows deflation is harmful
09:18:14 <zzo38> So that more recent points winning/losing is worth more.
09:28:25 <Jafet> You could use a model that assigns each player not only an estimated rating, but also an estimated rating rate of change
09:32:20 <Jafet> An exponential inflation rate won't work because if, say, an IM plays against a GM who hasn't played (in rated tournament games) for several years, the IM would start with a higher rating even though he is expected to lose
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09:54:55 <zzo38> Sorry, it was connection error
09:56:08 <zzo38> The purpose of this rating system I try to make up isn't exactly the same as things such as Elo anyways.
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09:59:50 <zzo38> Also, event bonuses would be part of the system too.
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10:10:03 <zzo38> Event bonuses would be based on different expectations calculated for each event. No wins/losses are calculated at all outside of a tournament. If you play outside of a tournament, your score is safe.
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10:58:08 <mroman> Wouldn't systems using average rank be way better?
10:59:53 <mroman> If you win as the lower player you switch ranks with your opponent
11:00:04 <mroman> for example if you play as rank 5 against a rank 3
11:00:09 <mroman> then the average ranks are 5 and 3
11:00:21 <mroman> you'll be promoted to rank 3 and he'll go down to rank 5
11:00:30 <mroman> which means both have an average rank of 4 now
11:00:45 <mroman> both stay at their ranks
11:01:01 <mroman> is then the new average rank of the winning player
11:01:15 <mroman> will be the rank of the loosing player
11:03:05 <mroman> (Obviously there are two rankings then. The current ranking and the ranking based on average ranking)
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14:06:32 <Eolus> oerjan its always been sans serrif
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14:45:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41729&oldid=41598 * InputUsername * (+82) Added qq implementation
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15:09:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41730&oldid=41345 * 68.227.98.57 * (+107) /* Normal implementations */
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15:48:23 <FireFly> they did increase the font size (and other small changes): https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/2tw6pm/reddit_change_changes_to_default_text_styling/
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15:51:43 <GeekDude> I was thinking the font was slightly different
15:53:35 <mroman> I guess reddit sucks then
15:54:33 <mroman> Websites shouldn't set a font-size.
15:55:03 <mroman> but only in terms of relative to default font-size
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15:55:28 <GeekDude> Someone did something to the headers
15:55:36 <GeekDude> http://i.imgur.com/T6Vym68.png
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16:19:05 <int-e> and this is why forums are fundamentally broken. you're forced to use the front-end as provided by some website.
16:19:35 <int-e> rather than, say, your favourite news reader. (oh Usenet, I have not seen you for ages)
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16:27:40 <int-e> "Well, this is h1. It should be really big."
16:27:56 <int-e> yeah, well, true. but you just know people are going to abuse it for emphasis.
16:28:24 <mroman> That would be totally different with CoolHTML
16:28:40 <int-e> (I saw GeekDude's screenshot. I don't need more demonstration.)
16:28:52 <int-e> mroman: we had a better world. it was called plain text.
16:29:25 <mroman> we had a better world. it was called messenger pigeons.
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16:31:28 <int-e> You may, I don't think I do. I'm averse to "cool", it makes me shiver.
16:34:02 <int-e> you know what upsets me more than sites arbitrarily changing their layouts though ...
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16:34:32 <int-e> ... is that different sites have font sizes that vary by orders of magnitude (at least that's what it feels like).
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16:35:54 <int-e> oh and that 'px' still hasn't died out in CSS.
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16:39:22 <int-e> (e.g. the esoteric codes site has a huge font. must be a blog thing.)
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16:43:01 <mroman> I'm still experimenting with http://mroman.ch/designs/d2/
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16:44:29 <mroman> Next thing I gotta do some boxes and buttons that scale well across different displays
16:44:48 <mroman> the first thing for smartphones is websites that have ads on the left
16:44:56 <mroman> because those ads just take away so much space
16:47:43 <mroman> I hate websites that require zoom to function well
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16:47:58 <mroman> some websites use incredibly small font-sizes for links
16:48:14 <mroman> so to click them you have to zoom in a lot
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17:34:14 <vanila> https://gist.github.com/ahmadsalim/11077308
17:34:16 <vanila> Proof that Agda is Turing complete
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17:43:17 <elliott> https://github.com/wouter-swierstra/Brainfuck mcbride makes this point a lot too
17:43:28 <elliott> (uh, not to imply that's mcbride)
17:48:52 <int-e> vanila: Looks acceptable to me.
17:49:06 <int-e> vanila: what's your objection?
17:49:25 <int-e> elliott: the README is missing a negation, isn't it?
17:49:59 <vanila> I don't understand what point wouter is trying to make
17:50:21 <int-e> "I get tired of explaining that totality is not the same as Turing completeness." <-- I think he means "incompleteness" there.
17:50:49 <elliott> vanila: that there's no reason the RTS can't follow codata like it follows IO actions
17:50:59 <elliott> Agda's IO monad is codata so it's TC I guess
17:51:11 <elliott> (as in, agda is TC in the same way that haskell can do IO)
17:52:19 <elliott> (conor also likes making the point that even for programs which don't terminate in practice, we generally don't want full partiality: for instance, a server should run forever, but it should always respond to requests in finite time -- i.e. unless the task is "implement a TC language", you can probably do better modelling things with a notion of productivity than just a full-blown partiality monad)
17:54:26 <int-e> (Tangentially related, stream fusion has streams (which are codata) with a Skip constructor because that avoids recursion, leading to better inlining...)
17:54:42 <int-e> (And I don't know why I thought of this now.)
17:54:57 <vanila> for some reason my view of 'turing complete' is about the functions N -> N you can implement
17:55:02 <vanila> and it's not TC in that respect
17:55:14 <vanila> but it IS TC in a looser sense I guess
17:55:34 <elliott> it's meant more as a rebuttal to people being, like, well, agda is total, so it's not TC, so you couldn't use it for writing real programs
17:55:50 <elliott> especially interpreters, etc.
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17:57:38 <int-e> vanila: Right, here the view taken is that of a decision problem (i.e. the machine accepts some language L, with acceptence indicated by program termination.)
17:58:24 <int-e> right, codata is essential because now totality does not imply termination anymore.
17:59:40 <int-e> And that's how the argument goes: because the programs are total function, they have to terminate on all inputs, and therefore the language can't be TC.
17:59:53 <elliott> we would accept this as proof of agda being TC on the esowiki, say
18:00:08 <elliott> because we don't look at the internals of programs to see exactly how they're implemented when making that call
18:00:16 <elliott> (well, other than to verify it really has infinite memory etc.)
18:00:28 <vanila> I feel like it is misleading to tell people agda is turing complete
18:00:45 <int-e> Also in any paper in theoretical computer science, provided we say something about how to produce the `main` function in general.
18:01:25 <elliott> I feel like it's misleading to tell people it's sub-TC
18:01:38 <elliott> turing-complete : can do IO
18:02:03 <elliott> "haskell is useless, it's pure so it can't do any IO so you can't write real programs!" "haskell is pure, but we can do IO (even though a function (a -> b) is pure), by using the top-level 'main'"
18:02:07 <int-e> vanila: Clearly we need more than a single statement (Agda is [not] TC.) to do Agda justice.
18:02:14 <vanila> I thought an coinductive execution trace of a small step interpreter
18:02:22 <vanila> was the same as 'run n steps' of a small step interpreter
18:02:29 <elliott> "agda is useless, it's total so it's not turing complete so you can't write real programs!" "agda is total, but we can do partiality (even though a function (a -> b) is total) by using the top-level 'main'"
18:02:34 <int-e> "Haskell is useless, everything it can express is constant."
18:02:35 <vanila> and you can do that in many non turing complete languages, it's run infinity steps that makes somethin TC
18:02:45 <elliott> vanila: but you can do that
18:02:51 <vanila> im not telling people agda is useless:/
18:02:54 <elliott> you could write an agda "main" that just follows that execution trace
18:03:00 <elliott> printing the output as it goes
18:03:08 <elliott> and it would halt iff the BF program does
18:03:29 <elliott> that module should probably have a main but I don't know how experimental/usable agda's IO stuff is
18:03:48 <elliott> but it's at least possible in theory because agda's IO is analoguous to that Trace
18:04:46 <int-e> Does Agda have something like codata Compute a = Result a | Later (Compute a) with machinery to live functions from base types to that stream type?
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18:05:25 <elliott> I think it has the partiality monad somewhere, yes, maybe not in the stdlib
18:05:29 <elliott> people have definitely written it up though
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18:05:54 <int-e> because then the answer to vanila's complaint becomes, well, if f : N -> N doesn't always terminate, then you can still write f : N -> Compute N.
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18:09:28 <int-e> wow. s/live/lift/ up there
18:09:53 <int-e> (worryingly, a spell checker wouldn't have helped me.)
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19:44:08 <oerjan> int-e: behold my typeable monster
19:46:29 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether the Proxies or the UndecidableInstances are the worst
19:46:49 <oerjan> (https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9858#comment:33)
19:48:57 * Melvar wonders if he can get cabal-install to only spit out a solution …
19:49:30 <oerjan> Melvar: have you tried -dry-run ?
19:50:00 <oerjan> (possibly with two -s, i never remember)
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19:52:36 <int-e> oerjan: beautiful.
19:53:36 <Melvar> oerjan: Well, that doesn’t look very machine-readable, though I guess it will work, and I think I need to set up a completely empty packageDB somehow for it to tell me everything.
19:54:23 <oerjan> Melvar: well that's as far as my expertise on getting output from cabal-install goes, i'm afraid
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19:57:21 <int-e> oerjan: to be useful you'll also need something like instance (Typeable' (a :: k -> k'), Typeable' (b :: k)) => Typeable' (a b), I think?
19:57:47 <oerjan> int-e: well sure, but that's already in the current implementation afaik
19:58:09 <oerjan> i was just trying to include the basic PoC
20:00:10 <int-e> oerjan: it's just that Kindable will infect that one now. instance (Kindable' (Proxy :: k' -> *), Typeable' (a :: k -> k'), Typeable' (b :: k)) => Typeable' (a b) where
20:00:21 <int-e> oerjan: I thought it'd be harder.
20:01:35 <int-e> oerjan: and the proxies are worst. UndecidableInstances is generally harmless.
20:01:54 <oerjan> yes, i'm just wondering about it infecting everything
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20:03:50 <oerjan> i assume both of the uglinesses would go away if kinds could be instances directly.
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20:07:23 <oerjan> which i vaguely think may be planned to happen as part of richard eisenberg's experiments?
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20:10:28 <oerjan> unless it's already happened, in which case this could be immediately simplified.
20:10:50 <int-e> oerjan: I'm confused: http://lpaste.net/3318663114416717824
20:11:33 <int-e> (ghc's error messages are extremely unhelpful without kinds)
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20:14:04 <oerjan> ah yes, the added Kindable contexts is of course the ugliest part of this.
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20:15:04 <int-e> but as indicated I feel that there's some weakness in the instance checker there...
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20:15:39 <oerjan> this is similar to the final change i had to do to make it compile
20:16:42 <oerjan> int-e: it's actually rather simple. you cannot deduce from Kindable' (Proxy :: (k1 -> k2) -> *) to Kindable' (Proxy :: k -> *) because of the open world assumption; the first instance _could_ come from somewhere else.
20:17:35 <oerjan> i had to change ((k -> *) -> *) to (k -> *) in the context of the Typeable' Proxy instance for similar reasons
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20:19:08 <oerjan> i'm afraid similar stuff is going to make this very annoying to _use_, as well :(
20:20:36 <oerjan> the worst part was that it couldn't deduce Kindable' (Proxy ((k -> *) -> *) in the where clause from Kindable' (Proxy ((k -> *) -> *) in the context
20:21:16 <oerjan> i assume it used instance resolution on the latter _before_ checking if it was in the context, leading to something that wasn't.
20:25:30 <oerjan> <FireFly> they did increase the font size (and other small changes): https://www.reddit.com/r/changelog/comments/2tw6pm/reddit_change_changes_to_default_text_styling/ <-- i see the top comment is someone having essentially the same reaction as me. let's hope there's enough backlash.
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20:59:39 <int-e> oerjan: this looks a bit less infectious: http://lpaste.net/1496357053919133696
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21:13:23 * Melvar discovers why idris depends on wai.
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21:25:35 <int-e> oerjan: ok, cleaning up a bit: http://lpaste.net/4263409010180358144
21:31:32 <Melvar> elliott: idris uses cheapskate to parse markdown, and cheapskate has an optional executable that depends on wai, which apparently causes it to be pulled in.
21:31:35 <oerjan> int-e: btw they're planning to make typereps typed, that's what the TTypeRep stuff was about.
21:33:40 <oerjan> int-e: you better post that on the trac thread
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21:39:54 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, I missed the typed typereps.
21:40:17 <int-e> oerjan: anyway, I added to the ticket
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21:43:02 <int-e> oerjan: but anyway this was a great insight from your side, that the kind-level -> can be pattern matched against.
21:46:13 <int-e> oerjan: I would really like TypeRep to be an open GADT ;-) (see http://lpaste.net/110434 for the reason. Of course there's prior art for this.)
21:47:35 <int-e> (Prior art: This is essentially how GRIN (jhc) works, as far as I understand it.)
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22:29:57 <oerjan> every month my cookie for the reddit adserver expires and i get to see that bloody r/sciencefiction ad again
22:31:57 <oerjan> http://static.adzerk.net/Advertisers/f1cd14ed8b3b4dffaadcc42bc8313180.jpg may be it
22:34:02 <elliott> I hear there are browsers that can do ad blocking these days, hth
22:34:32 <oerjan> (it's the only disturbing ad i've seen on reddit)
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22:38:42 <int-e> A disturbed oerjan? My mind boggles!
22:39:19 <mroman> disturbing in what way?
22:41:36 <mroman> http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130710/640/disturbing_and_revolting_facts_about_the_human_body_640_09.jpg
22:41:57 <mroman> (Don't click on that link if you are easily disturbed)
22:43:01 <mroman> It's just a human head without skin
22:44:29 <mroman> I guess you shouldn't google for open luxation then
22:45:15 <mroman> There's this game where who ever can look at the most disturbing picture wins
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22:47:44 <mroman> oerjan, elliott: Did you watch the Saw movies?
22:50:27 <mroman> Just download them all
22:50:34 <mroman> then watch them all in a marathon
22:50:53 <olsner> or better yet, don't do that
22:52:03 <mroman> Just repeat the procedure until it doesn't disturb you anymore ;)
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22:54:49 <mroman> I think it's called exposition training
23:01:35 <oerjan> sleep, or never sleep again, that's the question
23:02:02 <oerjan> and girl genius is back to late update again
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23:02:38 <int-e> well, they still have a couple of hours left of yesterday
23:03:54 <oerjan> more than that if they go by seattle time
23:04:17 <int-e> that was "a couple" as in "a few" rather than "two", hth.
23:05:56 <int-e> in the meantime I'm impressed by whio's handling of that 101 scrabble words data compression task.
23:06:26 <int-e> I expected solutions below 100 bytes. I didn't expect 74.
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23:26:05 <int-e> you don't pay attention for a day and more than 1% of the populace has a new name. Sigh :)
23:27:51 <Eolus> Everyone seems the same on the list?
23:28:41 <int-e> Okay, so it's been two days.
23:30:14 <Eolus> But lilax was here yesterday int-e
23:31:04 <Eolus> But what are you talking about
23:31:13 <int-e> --- Lilax is now known as Eolus <-- that was 2 days ago.
23:32:00 <HackEgo> Eolus: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:32:33 <Eolus> Why would you welcome me
23:33:15 <int-e> Well since you pretend not to be Lilax I don't think you've been welcomed before.
23:33:45 <Eolus> please stop calling me lilax :l
23:36:26 <fungot> int-e:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
23:37:00 <int-e> fizzie: that loop is also nice :)
23:37:31 <elliott> the best part is the "nick:."
23:37:34 <elliott> because of the punctuation handling
23:37:38 <int-e> fungot: try this again try this again try this again
23:37:39 <fungot> int-e:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive) x) bug? when i looked at it" and enjoy knowledge, and its kind, but my watch it toast? or decide. fnord 22:11, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, ...too much output!
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