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00:21:48 <Taneb> Woo went to a Haskell meet today
00:23:52 <int-e> How does Woo feel about that?
00:23:56 <fungot> int-e: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking of something. at the fnord door when clouds of the sky, sadly.)) the one that's not conspicuous if they're ah laughter. she heard, oh, hear, or speak
00:25:57 <Taneb> int-e, a friend and I organzed a meetup (mostly him)
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01:08:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41775 * 98.243.16.185 * (+3503) Initial draft
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01:12:15 <tswett2> Now, how do I use this language.
01:12:42 <zzo38> What kind of language did you mean?
01:12:57 <tswett2> Here's the definition of a natural number:
01:13:17 <tswett2> Nat { zero; succ; Nat tail; zero excludes succ; tail.zero or tail.succ requires succ; }
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01:35:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Al Dente examples]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41776 * 98.243.16.185 * (+1661) Just a couple of examples
01:35:49 <elliott> couldn't you unify requires and excludes by adding not
01:37:23 <tswett2> Then you'd be able to say "a matches not a" and the universe would explode.
01:38:20 <tswett2> It's currently impossible to disallow the state where no events have fired. Which is desirable, because that's the starting state.
01:39:13 <tswett2> Of course, you could say that "not" is allowed only immediately after the word "excludes". But, of course, that would just be renaming "excludes" to "requires not".
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01:41:01 <elliott> is a excludes b; b excludes a invalid
01:41:39 <tswett2> No, but you're just saying the same thing twice.
01:41:53 <tswett2> You could say "a excludes b; a matches b".
01:42:30 <tswett2> Then neither a nor b could ever fire.
01:42:45 <tswett2> Or you could shortcut and say "a excludes a".
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01:43:32 <tswett2> If you say "a requires b; b requires a", that's just a synonym of "a matches b".
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03:11:47 <zzo38> I have a VCR/DVD combo including counter reset for VCR, but why doesn't it include a zero-return function? If it does have, I cannot seem to find them, at least.
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04:44:53 <oerjan> rng rng rng rng rng rng rng, bananaphn
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05:11:29 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few theories of mine
05:11:32 <HackEgo> 1231) <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few
05:11:47 <HackEgo> 1231) <ais523> <spambot> Please enter the message for your recipients here. You are free to enter and edit your message just like you do it in your favorite text editor! This editor supports different fonts, tables, images and much more. Just replace this text with you own message and proceed to the mass mailing! <ais523> this is confirming a few
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05:21:06 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to GeekAfk.
05:21:11 * Sgeo is seriously considering buying an Oculus DK2
05:40:47 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
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05:43:17 -!- Eolus has set topic: Toilet is clogged again | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:44:07 <Eolus> Although, I was making a data compilition table that self modifies itself when ever it gets a new input
05:44:34 <Eolus> Also they have a BASIC programmer on the nintendo store now
05:44:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: Try a bucket of hot water hth | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:44:50 <Eolus> So like if you like that there basic
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05:46:07 <Eolus> Looking through logs by clicking is very time consuming
05:46:37 <Eolus> Is there some way I can just list it all at once
05:47:09 <oerjan> there might be a way to download them
05:48:19 <oerjan> if it's old you might try googling it
05:48:33 <zzo38> I think I have read that it isn't really quite BASIC but is rather something a bit similar.
05:48:43 <zzo38> It is a new kind of BASIC programming language.
05:49:16 <zzo38> I think the BASIC for Nintendo 3DS is Smile BASIC
05:49:20 <Eolus> I've been testing out
05:49:40 <Eolus> that was a semi-pun
05:49:41 * oerjan bites the hand that pats him
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05:52:58 <MDream> There's also a level editor for WiiU.
05:54:01 <Eolus> As I was doing its very Smoothe in my opinion.
05:54:01 <MDream> I dunno how extensive it'll let you design stuff, but based on that and SMile BASIC I guess WarioWare DIY didn't actually sell as poorly as I thought.
05:54:26 <Eolus> You can make animations and games and such
05:54:40 <Eolus> Save porting from PC I think
05:54:58 <Eolus> That's what the info said when I bought ot
05:55:41 <MDream> Is there even a way to directly connect a 3DS to a home comptuer?
05:55:58 <MDream> I tried swapping out the SD card, but my comptuer wasn't finding the pictured on it.
05:55:59 <zzo38> You can use QR codes
05:56:04 <Eolus> You have to use a bullshit connector
05:56:17 <zzo38> For Smile BASIC anyways, you can transfer to/from other computer using QR codes.
05:56:17 <MDream> There's alreay wifi right there.
05:56:43 <Eolus> god qr codes are so hard for me to line up
05:56:50 <MDream> But how do I read a WR code from a desktop?
05:57:18 <zzo38> Use a webcam or scanner
05:57:51 <zzo38> There are programs that can read barcodes in this way, not only QR code but also Codabar and other formats
05:57:53 <MDream> I would inquire further if I was not getting super tired.
05:58:36 <Eolus> either one is Almost socially Ok
05:58:55 <MDream> I'll stick to having chocolate like a small child.
05:59:08 <oerjan> for once, darths and droids _didn't_ subvert the comic readers' expectations. except those who assumed it would. which sort of included me.
05:59:10 <Eolus> Cherry peptobismal cake
05:59:29 <Eolus> And give it to someone
06:15:41 <Eolus> So, oerjan what do you do for a living
06:16:02 <Eolus> All of my questions are copyrighTed btw
06:32:19 <oerjan> "In the article, Hall pointed out that because he had control over the way the game progressed, playing on the psychology of the contestant, the theoretical solution did not apply to the show's actual gameplay." <-- I KNEW IT
06:32:53 <oerjan> Eolus: disability pension hth
06:42:02 <Eolus> How do you know about that?!
06:42:28 <oerjan> um the monty hall problem is old
06:42:40 <oerjan> therefore i know about it QED
06:43:42 <oerjan> also i looked up monty hall because of the new comic on mezzacotta http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/about.php
06:44:24 <oerjan> afaik this is the first comic on mezzacotta whic david morgan-mar explicitly _isn't_ an author of...
06:44:46 <Eolus> what does qed mean
06:44:57 <oerjan> quod erat demonstrandum hth
06:45:23 <Eolus> why did you day disability person hth
06:45:27 <oerjan> (it means the proof is complete)
06:45:46 <oerjan> your sentence is no grammar twh
06:45:55 <Eolus> 1:32:53 AM <oerjan> Eolus: disability pension hth
06:46:10 <Eolus> Why did you say that
06:46:12 <oerjan> you asked me what i did for a living.
06:46:31 <oerjan> ...don't you know the meaning of any words
06:46:49 <oerjan> the answer, obviously, is "nothing".
06:47:00 <Eolus> I'm so sorry for you
06:47:28 <Eolus> How do you get by?
06:48:13 <Eolus> Thought it said person
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06:48:19 <Eolus> Don't you yell at me!
06:48:36 <oerjan> don't worry about my yelling until i say O KAY
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06:49:14 <Eolus> You get a disability pension for being old?
06:49:31 <Eolus> How do you apply for said pension
06:49:48 <Eolus> I'm disabled Elliott and you know it
06:49:58 <oerjan> you fill out a form, and get a doctor to send a recommendation.
06:50:09 <Eolus> What type of doctor
06:50:20 <elliott> Eolus: you probably don't live in norway like oerjan, though :P
06:50:22 <oerjan> that's how it works in norway, don't know about where you are.
06:50:52 <Eolus> and disabled people are swept under the rug of poverty
06:52:11 <Eolus> how ill are you oerjan
06:52:50 <Eolus> Arthritic and going blind
06:52:57 <Eolus> sounds bout' right
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06:53:18 <oerjan> i don't think i'm arthritic, although i am worrying about my eyes
06:54:02 <Eolus> your cornea and iris are probably all old and dirty
06:54:38 <Eolus> you aren't _that_ young.
06:54:53 <Eolus> Why do you quote with _
06:55:04 <oerjan> besides, you are mostly way off track on your guesses.
06:55:10 <Eolus> ._________________________.
06:55:21 <oerjan> Eolus: it's traditional italics replacement on irc.
06:55:33 <oerjan> my client even underlines it
06:55:55 <Eolus> well I don't remember your age oerjan, Lilax does tho
06:56:40 * Eolus slams hands onto the table
06:56:56 <oerjan> i'm not a complete idiot who can be convinced of _anything_ silly.
06:57:33 <Eolus> Listen here buddy! If someone calls me by another alters name I'm gonna flip shit
06:59:42 <oerjan> your personality is too distinct to fool us i'm afraid.
07:00:20 <Eolus> No me and eolus are very similiar
07:00:33 <Eolus> I'm just restraining myself
07:00:45 <Eolus> Cuz I'm actually am a very terrible person
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07:01:39 <Quin> so oe is just a thing for ø or œ?
07:03:33 <Quin> You see, Lilax and Dulnes told me to be on my best behaviour here since they said you guys are very persnickety about things and manners
07:03:35 <oerjan> it's my unixy username and at least back when i first got it only ascii was supported.
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07:07:09 <b_jonas> that's not even a real letter. it's French.
07:07:20 <elliott> the œ ligature is used on english sometimes
07:07:35 <Quin> how do you pronounce it
07:07:47 <b_jonas> elliott: there's a funnier one
07:08:31 <Quin> And that would bE?
07:08:51 <b_jonas> (I hope I spelled that right)
07:08:55 <elliott> I've never heard that word even without the oe
07:10:05 <b_jonas> normal people either don't use that word, and write it as pharmacopoeia if they must. but some books like crazy words like this
07:10:11 <b_jonas> and use the fancy spelling just to show they can.
07:10:42 <Quin> all my teachers hate me when I front
07:10:54 <Quin> I write all my essays in .2 wingdings
07:11:24 <Quin> Mm wingdings sounds like a good food object
07:13:18 <Quin> b_jonas: is your grandma a necromancer?
07:13:49 <b_jonas> Quin: hmm… that would explain some things. but no, I don't think so
07:14:01 <b_jonas> if she is, she keeps it very secret.
07:14:12 <Quin> In her book of skin
07:16:49 <b_jonas> `8-ball is your grandma a necromancer?
07:16:59 <Quin> I just got really angry for no reason lol
07:17:12 <b_jonas> Quin: that means she's cast a spell to shield herself from divination
07:17:20 <Quin> I'm calm now but I think I'm bleeding.
07:17:36 <Quin> wait maybe HackEgo isn't powerful enough
07:18:45 <b_jonas> HackEgo, what's your spell level?
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07:18:56 <b_jonas> fungot, what's HackEgo's spell level?
07:18:56 <fungot> b_jonas: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there could be this consensus, for " 3" does not mean radio or remote and snowy rim, like the serrated edge, and it is eta. f
07:18:58 <Quin> or maybe she's getting help from oerjan who's actually a dark wizars
07:19:29 <b_jonas> Quin: no way. dark wizards can't be haskellers, can they?
07:19:41 <Quin> They have the powers
07:20:16 <Quin> Its obvious he's been using the oculous to divinate haskell processes
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07:31:16 <Quin> So what do we talk about
07:32:04 -!- Quin has set topic: Coding and stuff y'know esoteric Ya| https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
07:33:35 <Quin> ^8ball is oerjan a dark wizard
07:33:49 <Quin> I fkn knew it!
07:34:35 <b_jonas> `8-ball fungot's 8-ball doesn't work properly, right?
07:34:35 <fungot> b_jonas: and, dab, words like pop-culture should i have fizzie do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
07:34:36 <HackEgo> Concentrate and ask again.
07:34:56 <b_jonas> fungot: white or black queen?
07:34:56 <fungot> b_jonas: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
07:35:09 <Quin> ^8ball is b_jonas's grandmother a necromancer that is co consipirator of the pancake factory that oerjan runs
07:35:31 <b_jonas> you could have just asked me
07:35:43 <elliott> a pancake factory isn't much of a conspiracy, is it?
07:35:52 <elliott> I mean. it's jsut pancakes
07:35:59 <Quin> if its run by dark wizards
07:36:03 <Quin> Who know haskell
07:36:27 <b_jonas> maybe they use banana-filled pancakes, and the pancakes are the lenses?
07:36:53 <b_jonas> no wait, the pancakes are the envelopes, right
07:37:07 <Quin> take your favorite programming langauge now imagine their flavour
07:38:35 <Quin> Python tastes like watermelons
07:41:24 <Quin> This went terribly, No one ever talks in here -///+
07:43:37 * elliott resists the temptation to say that haskell tastes like burritos
07:46:10 <Quin> hold out your hands for a present
07:52:24 <oerjan> blood pancakes exist. you have been warned.
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07:55:07 <oerjan> obviously that's also what malbolge tastes like.
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07:58:22 <oerjan> brainfuck derivatives taste like artificial vanila & sugar
07:59:04 <elliott> ...what does brainfuck itself taste like, then?
07:59:20 <oerjan> genuine vanilla waffles
08:03:37 <oerjan> C tastes like turkey without stuffing.
08:03:57 <oerjan> C++ tastes like a whole roasted camel filled with a roaste turkey filled with a duck.
08:04:29 <oerjan> and you can never eat it all.
08:07:29 <elliott> how does syntactic sugar fit in
08:08:28 <oerjan> that's actually the ketchup hth
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08:17:00 <b_jonas> C tastes like chicken with no spices, C++ tastes like chicken spiced deliciously
08:17:12 <b_jonas> they have the same underlying meat, but C++ is prepared much better
08:18:01 <b_jonas> (unless you compile with the MSVC compiler, when they actually have almost no meat and made of canned soy beans)
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08:22:12 <Quin> you guys are goin at it
08:23:06 <elliott> the lambda calculus tastes like a pure nutrition cube with a slightly unpalatable flavour?
08:23:27 <elliott> I guess that's why they call it the lambda cube
08:24:14 <oerjan> a bouillon cube, me thinks
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08:24:27 <b_jonas> elliott: no, lambda calculus tastes like butter
08:24:40 <oerjan> i think b_jonas is being contrary
08:24:57 <b_jonas> pure fat, very powerful but harder to use directly than carbohydrates, and you don't want to eat it alone
08:25:04 <b_jonas> but it's great as flavoring
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08:26:15 <oerjan> in that case, haskell tastes like bacon hth
08:26:35 <oerjan> well that's the report version
08:26:47 <oerjan> god knows what extra is in ghc
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13:44:26 <ais523> oh well, I submitted my thesis
13:44:30 <ais523> so now I have more free time
13:44:52 <ais523> I'll link it here once a final version comes out (this is just the initial version, there'll be back-and-forth with examiners and so on before then)
13:45:01 <ais523> probably it shouldn't be online before then because it might confuse the plagiarism checker
13:46:55 <zemhill_> mroman: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
13:46:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:47:09 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Fri Jan 30 14:47:05 2015
13:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[KlingonCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41777&oldid=41773 * TomPN * (+401) /* Syntax */
13:51:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:TomPN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41778&oldid=41422 * TomPN * (+341)
13:55:32 <Taneb> ais523, congrats on thesis
14:00:58 <ais523> mroman: not online yet
14:01:14 <ais523> won't be until it actually gets accepted, which will be months even if the examiners want no revisions
14:01:17 <ais523> and they almost always want revisions
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14:09:02 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/doc.pdf
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14:12:58 <paul2520> mroman: I can't read more than the abstract, but fromw what I can understand it looks interesting. The graphs intrigue me. Nice work and congrats on this milestone in ypur education
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14:18:54 <mroman> paul2520: It essentially just proves that you can divide a map into zones and simulate them in parallel and reduce the simulation time despite the overhead of every zone having to communicate with surrounding zones
14:19:04 <mroman> which isn't that surprising :)
14:19:28 <mroman> but by using an actor modell you can distribute zones in the network of computers
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14:20:07 <mroman> because some zones might be more crowded than others so it makes sense to distribute the responsibilites for simulating zones depending on each individual node's load
14:20:46 <mroman> and you should switch algorithms when crowds get more dense
14:21:21 <mroman> and you should cache routes
14:21:32 <mroman> because path finding in a graph with thousands of edges is really not very fast
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14:23:44 <mroman> even if your pathfinding is fast
14:24:14 <mroman> if you have 50k persons and each pathfinding for a person takes 0.01s you're going to have a fucking slow simulation
14:24:34 <mroman> because then just path finding alone would take 500s for a single step
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14:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (though a shocking amount of DF's CPU load comes from the horrendously-optimised temperature simulation)
14:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, DF is slow because a) it does pathfinding for hundreds of entities at once, b) on a single core
14:28:01 <mroman> We distributed path finding to cores
14:28:14 <mroman> That wouldn't help for 50k :)
14:28:33 <mroman> it's still too slow for near-real time
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15:07:53 <oren> |= doesn't make any sense
15:09:32 <oren> how come we use the same stupid operator to mean "assignment of symbols makes set of expressions true" and "expressions can be derived from expressions"
15:10:21 <oren> and why the hell is it "entails" in my course but "\models" in TeX?
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15:19:56 <coppro> oren: |- is used for the latter, no? or am I misunderstanding something
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15:23:14 <oren> coppro: I have seen that operator, but not in this course. /Apparently/, A |= B where A and B are formulas, means that forall interpretations I, (I |= A) => (I |= B)
15:24:11 <b_jonas> A |= B is like (A = A | B) except that the expression A is evaluated only once
15:24:41 <coppro> oren: ah, ok. That is then slightly different from |-
15:25:01 <coppro> |- means "proves", which is not necessarily the same, because it's constrained by the axioms of proof in the logic system you have
15:25:38 <coppro> if the logic is complete (propositional logic is!), then they coincide
15:25:53 <coppro> oren: also I don't find that too misleading
15:25:56 <oren> Ah. I still think it is half-assed for the same operator to mean different things based on type of operands
15:26:35 <coppro> this stuff happens all the time; live with it!
15:26:36 <oren> coppro: I don't see how those are examples.
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15:27:40 <coppro> oren: + means, variously, a group operation, ring addition, or any number of special cases of those
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15:28:09 <coppro> \cdot can mean a group operation, ring multiplication, or in certain cases a non-associative product (e.g. octonions)
15:28:12 <oren> coppro: true, but not within the same language
15:28:31 <coppro> \times can mean both Cartesian product and cross product, and I've seen those two used close together
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15:29:25 <coppro> oren: and these two meanings aren't that fundamentally different
15:29:54 <coppro> they're still saying "thing on left satisfies thing on right", except when it's a set of formulas, it's being used as a shorthand for "all things entailing this"
15:30:06 <coppro> it's sort of akin to f(S) for a function f and set S
15:30:18 <coppro> to mean { f(s) : s \in S }
15:30:38 <oren> coppro: people do that!?!?? what is the world coming to
15:31:02 <coppro> oren: it's a convenient shorthand and rarely ambiguous
15:32:43 <oren> Well, sure, but what happens when S is a set of sets?
15:32:56 <oren> and f is a function from sets to sets
15:33:12 <coppro> then you don't use that notation
15:33:53 <coppro> you either right the specification out directly, or invent some other notation like \mathcal P(f)(S), which is *also* an abuse of notation, but again not very ambiguous
15:34:12 <coppro> or f^{\mathcal P}(S) or something
15:34:26 <coppro> The point of notation is usually to be clear, not to be excessively precise
15:34:32 <oren> and thus, all math papers have to have a lot of english text explaining what the hell this particular mathematician means
15:34:32 <coppro> if you need excessive precision, you can use it
15:34:58 <coppro> there are too many different concepts in mathematics to invent a different notation for each of them
15:35:11 <coppro> I'm making an effort not to overload relation operators (like \le) in my thesis, and it's a pain and a half
15:35:38 <coppro> since I'm talking about a *lot* of relations, the result is that I have lots of fun ones
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15:48:26 <oren> It would be easier if math syntax allowed multi-letter names. But noooo... someone had to use the null operator for multiplication....
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15:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> multi-letter names are common when you're not working with numerical algebra
15:57:14 <oren> I remember using russian letters, and then katakana, on a long proof.
15:57:51 <mroman> you've used up a-z all russian letters?
15:58:20 <oren> mroman: all the ones that don't look too much like roman or greek letters
15:59:03 <oren> I was able to shorten the proof a ton once I finished it
15:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <coppro> oren: + means, variously, a group operation, ring addition, or any number of special cases of those
15:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> not a great example, since it's an abelian group operation in both cases
16:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> + is pretty regular, the only hangup is that it's sometimes restricted to domains on which it's not invertible
16:00:26 <jameseb> oren: A friend of mine used zhe in an exam once when he ran out of Latin and Greek letters
16:00:29 <oren> a good example is that damn \supset operator which is being so grievously abused in my textbook
16:01:21 <oren> Apparently now superset means implies
16:01:49 <Phantom_Hoover> worst notation i saw in a book was a book of topology that used ]a,b[ to indicate an open interval
16:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it also defined everything with a commutative diagram and a universal property
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16:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> this was meant to be an introductory text, and it defined product and quotient that way
16:04:06 <Phantom_Hoover> thankfully i eventually found a phd student with a spare copy of hatcher
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16:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, interestingly i'd seen it before at school when they were mentioning different notations
16:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> but with a distinct air of 'if you find someone stupid enough to actually do this, run'
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16:08:03 <jameseb> I've seen \sqsupset used for implication but that makes sense when using implication as a definition of refinement
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16:30:59 <oren> I can't look at sqsupset without thinking 'ko'.
16:31:25 <coppro> oren: now I'll never be able to either
16:31:29 <coppro> also thanks for teaching me a katakana
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16:57:30 <mroman> oren: have you tried different font-sizes
16:57:38 <mroman> a with 12pt is another variable than a with 15pt
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17:03:48 <Jafet> \sqsupset is fun because people can't agree on whether it means refinement or abstraction.
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18:22:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:My Unreliable Past]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41779&oldid=41061 * 168.99.197.15 * (+348) /* Fix for Hello World? */ new section
18:32:19 <paul2520> ais523: My Unreliable Past sounds interesting. on this and a number of pages at esolangs.org, there isn't information about downloading interpreters/compilers. Is this intentional?
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18:36:26 <zzo38> In some cases no interpreters/compilers currently exist.
18:36:51 <zzo38> (You are free to write one if you want to.)
18:37:07 <zzo38> In some other cases, writing a interpreter/compiler is impossible.
18:52:44 <paul2520> well that's fun, though. that you can have written a language, but not necessarily gone through all the steps of writing an interpreter
18:52:57 <paul2520> to that end, I've written a language or two...
18:53:34 <oren> I've written an interpreter without having a langugae
18:54:03 <Taneb> I've written languages then other people have written interpreters then I've gone back and written my own interpreter
18:54:31 <oren> The interpreter has everything except a parser.
18:58:45 <oren> Imagine a parse tree structure where each node is of the form (f,N) where f is a function mapping a list of nodes to a single node
18:58:55 <oren> and N is a list of nodes.
18:59:48 <oren> Then the interpreter can be written without reference to um, anything
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19:18:57 <oren> Maybe it would be easier towrite programs with an editor that worked directly on parse trees
19:19:25 <MDude> That could be cool.
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19:23:31 <oren> Right now we have auto bracket matching, auto-correction and tab-completion, and various even fancier IDE features. For a language like lisp, it shouldn't be that hard to parse it into a tree upon loading the IDE, use certain keys for manipulating the tree, and then deparse it into a file upon saving.
19:24:00 <oren> is there a word for deparsing?
19:24:54 <MDude> In thise case I'd use "serializing".
19:25:47 <oren> yeah. we serialize the parse tree into the unnatural flat form that for hysterical reasons we usually edit directly
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19:57:08 <fizzie> There's a name for that.
19:57:27 <fizzie> Structural editing or some-such.
19:58:01 <Deewiant> http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~nwatson/pa70/
19:58:04 <fizzie> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_editor
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20:11:11 <elliott> ais523: congratulations!!!
20:11:52 <oerjan> ais523: congratulations!!!!
20:12:32 <oerjan> gah the whole world is extra noisy today
20:16:39 * oren looks through logs
20:17:01 <oren> Oh, you finished your thesis. omodetou
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20:31:19 <oren> But if we aren't going to serialize it into a readable form, and instead only edit an abstract structure using an esoteric editor, then there's no reason a language's structure has to be embeddable in 2 dimensions.
20:35:38 <b_jonas> oren: well, I prefer plain text as code because then I can use whatever editor I prefer for writing and whatever text viewer I prefer for reading
20:36:14 <b_jonas> and plain text is exactly what C++ and most other languages do these days, unlike the crazy old languages like basic or smalltalk that come with a fixed ide
20:36:28 <b_jonas> (of course, these days those have plain text variants too)
20:37:08 <zzo38> And also ColorForth
20:37:34 <zzo38> But yes I also like plain text as code because then you use whatever editor you want, program to view, or to print out on a paper, etc
20:37:56 <zzo38> And you can use it with filters and other programs, such as AWK
20:38:28 <MDude> Well the code would be saved as text.
20:39:03 <zzo38> GWBASIC did not save the program as text unless you specifically told it to do so, however.
20:40:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, back in the basic and APL days the way the ide worked was that you ran line commands from the screen buffer (seriously), or you could give simple commands to change a line of the stored program or to load a line to the screen buffer
20:40:24 <zzo38> Yes, I know that I worked with GWBASIC and that stuff.
20:40:35 <b_jonas> but those languages (basic and APL) would then get adapted to proper unixy plain text file based variants, just like smalltalk
20:41:14 <zzo38> Forth also allows executing commands directly from the screen buffer. While you can define subroutines in this way too, usually you should use a block editor for this purpose instead.
20:41:36 <b_jonas> besides GWBASIC, the Commodore 64 basic also works like that, as well as some other home computers from that era
20:41:55 <b_jonas> (but not all home computer basics)
20:42:06 <zzo38> Yes I know possibly most do
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20:44:05 <oren> But code inherently has a lot of structure. Is there any particular reason why that structure should be easily serializable to a one-dimensional stream of characters?
20:44:55 <zzo38> Mainly to make it portable.
20:46:04 <b_jonas> oren: one-dimensional stream turned out to be versatile enough for it. most languages use identifiers made from sequence of letters such that identical identifiers may refer to the same node, and that way you can have any graph-like structure.
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20:46:47 <b_jonas> oren: the text editors let you search for occurrances of those identifiers, that way you can traverse the graph structure.
20:48:25 <b_jonas> (this basic idea is very old, it's present in fortran and maybe even in assemblers)
20:48:45 <b_jonas> (it used to be called "symbols" instead of identifiers)
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21:08:40 <fizzie> Sometimes when I get these highly specific spams (cf. http://sprunge.us/BZTF for example) I have to wonder if they actually get any takers.
21:09:08 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
21:09:31 <fizzie> There was at least one selling something related to concrete, and someone producing some nylon wire thing.
21:11:55 <skj3gg> fizzie: how do you even tell thats spam?
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21:13:15 <skj3gg> fizzie: i mean, that custom synthesis service sounds pretty nice.
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21:16:12 <fizzie> 2. spam, junk e-mail -- (unwanted e-mail (usually of a commercial nature sent out in bulk))
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21:16:19 <fizzie> I didn't want it, so it's spam.
21:16:57 <fizzie> It's also of commercial nature, and I think it's pretty likely it was sent out in bulk, though I guess it's possible they targeted me specifically.
21:17:46 <skj3gg> fizzie: i guess, but did you at least update you their stock?
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21:32:32 <oren> I have personally ordered stuff from Chinese companies like that. I paid $100 They sent it to me with a label saying it was a gift worth $5.
21:33:44 <oren> The most recent thing I ordered was a movie-playing glasses thing
21:34:39 <oren> If you order their chemicals, they will probably label it as a soft drink
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21:41:33 <dtscode> hey int-e you wrote lambdabot right?
21:42:12 <oerjan> i don't think int-e is online at the moment
21:42:35 <oerjan> he didn't write it, he is the current maintainer though. it's more than a decade old.
21:42:56 <dtscode> is there a place to get the source?
21:43:14 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:43:23 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Lambdabot
21:45:03 <oerjan> int-e: is http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/ (linked from the wiki) even current?
21:45:19 <int-e> oerjan: no, of course not.
21:45:23 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/int-e/lambdabot.git
21:45:53 <oerjan> if the wiki weren't in a state of movement i would edit that
21:46:10 <int-e> oerjan: I'm not going to answer your #9858 comment on the ticket, but you're right. I consciously modelled my code after goldfire's idea of tracking kind arguments explicitely, while limiting myself to code that ghc would accept right now.
21:47:10 <oerjan> int-e: i was going to ask you, _is_ there a way to make classes and/or type families take kind-only arguments yet? it would clean it up a lot.
21:47:24 <int-e> dtscode: hmm, not exactly. The basic recipe is cabal sandbox init; cabal install lambdabot*/ but you'll run into a few known dependency issues that I'll fix when ghc-7.10 is released.
21:47:50 <dtscode> ah ok. i might just add the @tell feature into my bot then
21:48:02 <int-e> oerjan: I don't think so, but I'm not the right person to ask. In my attempts I got "non-promotable foo" errors.
21:48:42 <oerjan> i suspect there would be trouble with -> for types and kinds not being the same thing
21:49:07 <oerjan> but also that it might not support using the same variable in a type and kind position at all
21:49:26 <int-e> oerjan: ask goldfire.
21:49:41 <int-e> oerjan: he's on #ghc
21:51:31 <dtscode> did my message tgo through before my laptop shut off?
21:52:15 <oerjan> <dtscode> ah ok. i might just add the @tell feature into my bot then <-- your last message
21:53:07 <int-e> FWIW, I usually check the logs to answer such questions.
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21:58:16 <oerjan> i was imagining if kinds and types were more alike, we'd just have instance Typeable k => Typeable (Proxy :: k -> *) where ...
21:59:19 <elliott> GHC really needs to just become a PTS or something
22:00:23 <oerjan> elliott: richard eisenberg (goldfire) is working on something like that
22:00:56 <oerjan> with pi types, not sure if that's the same kind, but it's something dependent, anyway
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22:01:47 <elliott> oerjan: pure type systems sorta unify types/kinds/etc.
22:03:04 <elliott> oerjan: (well, they can, anyway.)
22:03:56 <oren> is a kind a type of type?
22:04:35 <oren> ok that'sreasonable
22:05:16 <oren> but how can you unify types with kinds without unifying types with values?
22:08:10 <oren> if something is a kind, presumably you can test whether a type is of that kind. If something is a type, presumably you can test whether a value is of that type.
22:08:27 <elliott> lambda calculus type systems don't generally work like that, no
22:08:39 <elliott> if you mean internally to the language
22:09:37 <oren> Uh, I mean in code. if(T isa K) and if(V isa T)
22:09:44 <b_jonas> um, this is a static type system, not a dynamic one
22:10:23 <oren> Ok then, let T bea K, let V bea T same problem
22:10:56 <elliott> you're not making any sense in context, sorry
22:12:15 <oren> The point is, if you have a structure which relates a type T to a value V, then if T is a kind, then V is a type.
22:13:01 <oren> So a typeoftype can't be a type unless a type is a value
22:13:27 <elliott> you're not making any sense in context, sorry
22:13:54 <oren> you said a kind is a type of type. presumably a type is a type of value.
22:14:30 <Melvar> Generally, if you have kinds in the first place, they’re formally not types.
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22:14:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pop-corn: not found
22:14:58 <Melvar> They just relate to types in a way that is intuitively similar to the way types relate to values.
22:15:31 <oren> right. So if you can instantiate a type as a value, then ypou can instantiate a kind as a type, correct?
22:17:45 <Melvar> Not sure what “instantiate” means here.
22:18:21 <oren> Then the problem I have is that if the syntax is formulated in a way that distinguishes values from types, then making kinds types, makes types values
22:20:57 <oerjan> oren: anyway, in the system that is being envisioned for future haskell, any value can be turned into a type and any type into a kind, but not always any type into a value.
22:21:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure about from kind to type.
22:21:35 <oren> So formally "hello" is a kind?
22:21:55 <MDude> It can be kind to ssy.
22:22:16 <oerjan> oren: "hello" is already a type in ghc haskell (not quite the same as a "promoted" string, though)
22:22:46 <oren> oh god damn it
22:22:59 <oren> what wouldy that even mean
22:23:49 <oren> A type without any values?
22:24:06 <oerjan> oren: it means that you can have a literal string as a type parameter, which is useful for e.g. making a typeclass that tells whether a type has a field of a given name. which is also being implemented.
22:24:34 <oerjan> oren: only types of kind * have values.
22:24:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's what "hello" as a type means. that makes sense. but what would "hello" as a kind mean?
22:25:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno, i've just heard all types will also be kinds.
22:25:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, that sounds scary
22:25:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: isn't it only all types of kind * that will be kinds?
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22:25:53 <b_jonas> so the "hello" type wouldn't be so becuase it's of kind String
22:26:02 <oren> That sort of makes sense.
22:26:43 <Melvar> Idris has many empty types – they correspond to false propositions.
22:26:52 <oren> I thought of one other way to do it, and that is that "hello" promotes to the type String
22:27:02 <b_jonas> Melvar: well sure, Haskell already has many empty types too
22:27:18 <oren> But that seems useless
22:27:21 <b_jonas> you can define a new one like data MyNewEmptyType where {};
22:28:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok maybe it's only types of kind *
22:28:18 <b_jonas> I mean, even that is scary, but less so
22:28:24 <oerjan> the others would be kinds with no types in them, otherwise.
22:28:47 <oerjan> also istr it will bottom out by making the kind of all kinds *
22:29:05 <oerjan> (and that as a result this system is not consistent as a logic)
22:29:40 <Melvar> What, no infinite hierarchy?
22:30:20 <oren> I pictured it as a loerarchy
22:30:25 <oerjan> indeed. i fully expect something to come up later that forces them to make it infinite, though :P it would be typical haskell.
22:31:44 <Melvar> oren: From The Screwtape Letters?
22:31:54 <oerjan> (it's still supposed to be _type_ safe, though.)
22:33:15 <b_jonas> how infinite? one level for every ordinal? or only up to 20, and up to any natural if you use the epic rules?
22:34:00 <oerjan> b_jonas: is that a d&d reference?
22:34:14 <oren> Melvar: I heard the word loerarchy in real life somewhere, since I wasn't sure how to spell it
22:35:16 <b_jonas> oren: is that like an upside down hierarchy? or would that be liearaclo?
22:35:20 <oerjan> all i know about "epic" i learned from oots
22:35:48 <oren> b_jonas: yeah, like a set of things where the lowest one is the most powerful
22:36:48 <oren> So for example the letter grade system is a loerarchy
22:36:56 <Melvar> oren: In The Screwtape Letters it’s “Lowerarchy” I believe, but it’s really just a pun. “hieros” means sacred or holy, it’s not related to “high”.
22:37:55 <oren> although sometimes S is better than A
22:38:56 <Melvar> Wiktionary actually has an entry for “lowerarchy”.
22:38:58 <oerjan> back in the norwegian equivalent of junior high school, S was the best character. no A though.
22:40:53 <oren> In canada it is ABCDF (they took out E), and in many videogames it's SABC
22:40:54 <oerjan> g/G for no:godt = en:good, and the prefixes mean especially, very, ..., fairly, little
22:41:40 <oerjan> where little is actually an adverb so i'm not sure what it's in english
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22:43:33 <oerjan> the senior high school used to be 1-6, 6 best. the university used to be 1-6, 1 best. but i think at least one of them has changed to an A-F system.
22:43:50 <oerjan> (also the university had decimal points)
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22:45:43 <Melvar> In Germany, 1 is always the best of 1-6. However, systems differ in which intermediate grades are used.
22:45:56 <oerjan> and the before-high-school classes had no real grades, although there was a report card with either "satisfactory" or "may improve"
22:46:50 <oren> In my public schoolthey had excellent, satisfactory and needs improvement
22:48:06 <oren> I think they do that to try to discourage competition
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22:49:11 <oerjan> pretty sure there was no excellent, and given the general views of the time they almost certainly wanted to discourage competition.
22:49:47 <oerjan> my public school teacher was an honest-to-atheism communist btw.
22:50:08 <oerjan> although to fair, i only realized that about the last year.
22:50:42 <oerjan> (the main teacher for our class, that is)
22:51:21 <oren> lol. in Canada that's the norm
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22:52:27 <oren> teachers in high school are a left-wing demographic in a left-wing country
22:52:56 <oerjan> it's the norm in norway that teachers are left-wing, but there's still a couple steps until communism.
22:53:27 <oerjan> and of course there are exceptions.
22:54:54 <oren> Yeah, i guess... although I find that communism isn't really considered to be the epitome of left-wing anymore
22:56:05 <oerjan> there's the labor party which is only partly leftish these days, then there's the party named "socialist left" which has dropped mentions of revolution quite a while ago, and was in the last government. then there is the party simply named "red", which has no representatives but has had one before.
22:56:41 <oerjan> and then there is the "norwegian communist party", if it still exists, i'm not quite sure.
22:57:25 <oren> In canada we have the canadian communist party which is completely irrelevant.
22:58:25 <oerjan> the norwegian one is also completely irrelevant.
22:58:26 <oren> they have 'meetings' on campus which as far as I know no one goes to
22:59:10 <oerjan> but mainly because they're the "old-style" communists, all the young radicals go to "red" instead.
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22:59:30 <oerjan> if they're sufficiently radical, that is.
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23:00:10 <oren> In Canada young radicals don't vote.
23:00:32 <oren> Or young people in general really
23:01:14 <oren> I only voted because I had nothing better to do
23:02:01 <J_Arcane> oren: Canadian politics never really seemed like a thing one got excited about really, unless you were Quebecois and the latest hopeless referendum was up for vote.
23:02:31 <oerjan> there are also the Greens, they're radical about the environment but i don't think about economics.
23:03:38 <oerjan> and last election they seemed to be siphoning voters off the left socialists, which also style themselves as "green"
23:04:14 <oren> It's confusing that the Republicans are red. Whoever thought that was a good idea
23:04:49 <oerjan> oren: i vaguely remember reading they used to vary that by election, but then after 9/11 or thereabouts it got stuck
23:06:03 <oerjan> presumably neither party wants to be associated with the european associations of the color
23:06:44 <oren> Apparently so. they got stuck with the wrong colours as far as the rest of the world (including Canada) is concerne
23:06:51 <oerjan> there's always the joke that in norway/europe, the democrats would be considered a right-wing party.
23:07:11 <oren> We make that joke too
23:07:48 <oren> But our most left-wing party the NDP uses orange
23:09:14 <oerjan> red, obviously, uses red. but then so does the labor party, and the socialist lefts use red+green
23:09:40 <oren> The christmas party
23:11:03 <oerjan> actually the christian people's party uses red, too, and even the rightwing progress party is mostly red.
23:11:53 <oren> Um, how is the "progress party" right-wing. That doesn't make sense
23:12:27 <oerjan> it's considered the most right-wing party in parliament.
23:13:06 <oren> our most right-wing party was once called the "progressive conservatives" which is just contradictory
23:13:36 <oren> "We want to go forward, and stay where we are!"
23:14:19 <oren> They realized this and chnged the name
23:14:41 <oerjan> our _second-most_ right-wing party, named "right", but usually translated as conservatives, has a coalition covernment with the progress party.
23:15:12 <J_Arcane> oerjan: my favorite joke about American politics is that by US standards, Jeremy Clarkson is practically a moderate ...
23:15:15 <oerjan> well the progress party are not conservative, they certainly want to change things.
23:16:20 <Taneb> I very much support the idea of Conserving the French Monarch
23:16:29 <oerjan> J_Arcane: this joke would probably work better if i actually watched tv.
23:17:21 <J_Arcane> Jeremy Clarkson is the head presenter on Top Gear. I like to think of him as Britain's drunk uncle.
23:17:35 <oerjan> i did google that much.
23:18:50 <J_Arcane> Besides the car thing, he's mostly famous for getting in trouble over vaguely racist remarks, or complaining about any kind of legal or environmental barriers to the existence of large fuel-guzzling v12 engines.
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23:19:35 <oerjan> well the latter part does look like part of his job description.
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23:23:43 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
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23:24:00 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
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23:24:54 * oerjan assumes that is an inside joke about monochrom which he doesn't know
23:26:26 <lambdabot> ghc says: falls under the monomorphism restriction
23:26:29 <lambdabot> koeien says: Let's register it [monomorphismrestriction.com] to prevent it from being used ;)
23:26:40 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: <mauke> inb4 monomorphism restriction <chrisdone> monomorphism prediction
23:26:49 <lambdabot> liyang says: <fragamus> how can I upgrade bytestring? I tried to use cabal but it complains <liyang> Ah, the dreaded monochrom restriction.
23:26:53 <lambdabot> vixey says: put some restriction like every token has a neighbourhood locally homeomophic to algol
23:27:26 <oerjan> callforjudgement: that last one sounds like something you'd know about.
23:27:57 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: <mauke> inb4 monomorphism restriction <chrisdone> monomorphism prediction
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23:56:04 <lambdabot> monochrom says: "a monad is like drinking water from a bottle without human mouth touching bottle mouth"
23:56:50 <oren> So it matched characters not words
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23:58:11 <lambdabot> Japsu says: segfault cat is watching you unsafeCoerce
23:58:26 <lambdabot> monochrom says: those who have learned from history are bound to helplessly watch other people repeat it.
23:58:37 <lambdabot> quanticle says: If you recommend me that mexican water again, I will break a Corona bottle over your head.
23:58:45 <lambdabot> Vellos says: i will watch you from afar
23:59:05 <oren> @quote segfault
23:59:05 <lambdabot> TSC says: Programs compiled with GHC aren't really supposed to segfault, are they? <Pseudonym> Did you call unsafeSegfault?
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