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00:09:22 <boily> オォォォォッ！あちらも日本語IMEで書けています!すごい！
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00:10:43 <boily> 天気はどうですか ここにはもっとも寒い（＞＿＜）
00:12:01 <oren> ここも寒い。冬はもうおわんない
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00:13:26 <oerjan> i think this channel may have entered the matrix, there are all these strange symbols
00:14:36 <oerjan> unless this is zalgo, see today's sromg (NSFL)
00:15:05 <oerjan> square root of minus garfield
00:16:11 <oerjan> mezzacotta / david morgan mar's collaborative garfield parody comic
00:17:31 <oren> ギャアア！その漫画は怖いよ！
00:17:34 <oerjan> he just added a dinosaur comic collaborative fan comic, so now i'm reading that without reading dinosaur comic itself...
00:18:42 <olsner> how much better is the fan comic than the original?
00:18:55 <oren> そのSROMG漫画を読んでいます
00:18:57 <boily> obscure webcomics are obscure for a reason.
00:19:05 <olsner> I've been trying to find dinosaur comics funny for some time now
00:19:20 <oren> They aren't that funny
00:19:24 <oerjan> olsner: hm, in that case probably a lot
00:19:55 <boily> oren: わかります 僕は読まないんだよ
00:20:24 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. they were supposed to be funny?
00:20:38 <olsner> boily: what else could they be supposed to be?
00:20:56 <oerjan> i thought today's fan comic was funny, anyway
00:21:35 <oren> my favorite webcomic (in English) is "Basic Instructions"
00:21:38 <boily> olsner: philosophical? reflective? introspective?
00:22:29 <boily> I'm still a thorough fan of xkcd.
00:22:46 <boily> olsner: a fortunate incident.
00:24:10 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
00:24:10 <HackEgo> 918) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 919) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 928) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 931) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my
00:24:35 <HackEgo> The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
00:24:36 <boily> (huh. I thought there were l[iy]strosaurs somewhere in oerjan's `?...)
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00:25:00 <oerjan> boily: i guess you just associated on "evil" hth
00:25:15 <boily> oerjan: naturally.
00:25:39 * oerjan denies being a lystrosaur recently awakened from stasis
00:25:52 <olsner> oerjan is an evil overlord, lystrosaurs were evil and took over the world => became overlords, everything matches up
00:26:06 <olsner> denial doesn't make it not so
00:26:11 <oerjan> i hear elizabeth II might be one, though
00:27:31 <oerjan> i suppose lystrosaurs were also antediluvian
00:27:57 <oerjan> and roald dahl wrote books about defeating evil monsters, so they'd naturally hate him.
00:28:10 <oerjan> yeah, a surprising amount of matches there
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01:57:51 <quintopia> and you'd already be in bed half an hour from now when i got home
01:59:14 <boily> real life is an illusion. and besides, this chännel entered the matrix a few hours ago.
02:01:02 <boily> so you're back home? have you enjoyed your trip?
02:01:10 <oerjan> i dunno, the strange symbols seem to have disappeared
02:01:50 <oerjan> is mainly in the plane
02:04:55 <ais523> huh, apparently I shouldn't try to send email during a distro upgrade
02:05:09 <ais523> the email editor in Evolution has no send button
02:05:16 <ais523> and when I try to close the compose window
02:06:11 <ais523> it puts up a dialog box with an information icon and no text
02:07:36 <boily> oerjan: don't worry. the next swarm will strike when you least expect it.
02:07:44 <boily> ais523: which distro?
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02:31:29 <oerjan> HE'S JUST PLAYING WITH US
02:31:38 <ais523> ugh, the distro upgrader seems to have crashed
02:32:23 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxibustion
02:32:24 <lambdabot> Title: Moxibustion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
02:32:41 <lambdabot> *** "word" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:32:41 <lambdabot> n 1: a unit of language that native speakers can identify;
02:32:41 <lambdabot> "words are the blocks from which sentences are made"; "he
02:32:41 <lambdabot> hardly said ten words all morning"
02:32:56 <ais523> my response was to kill dpkg, it seems to be continuing now, at least
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02:33:18 <ais523> I've restored Ubuntu from a broken distro upgrade before now
02:33:22 <ais523> but prefer it when I don't have to
02:33:43 <ais523> let's hope that whatever package it didn't install isn't essential for the computer to boot
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03:44:53 <ais523> OK, about to reboot into the new distro
03:45:01 <ais523> I've done the best I can to manually fix things
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03:50:21 <ais523> ooh, I think it worked
03:50:48 <ais523> huge number of crash reports, but I think all of them were either caused by a bug in ocaml-doc, or indirectly from my kill -9 dpkg during the upgrade
03:54:02 <ais523> nah, famous last words would be me before the reboot
03:54:48 <oerjan> i cannot help it, i'm reading the tvtropes untwist page
04:02:41 <ais523> oh, hmm, the unity dash still has terrible performance
04:02:51 <ais523> it only takes like 5 seconds to open rather than like 15
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04:25:37 <oren> ais523: that's why I switched to Xubuntu
04:26:47 <oren> well, also because I like windows and hate mac, and i hate how everyone wants to be an iphone now
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04:34:32 <oerjan> i don't want to be an iphone hth
04:35:15 <oerjan> i also don't want to be a lumberjack. (nothing wrong with lumberjacks, they're okay.)
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04:36:14 <oerjan> what evil plans dost thou laugh about
04:38:30 <Eolus> I truly don't know
04:39:14 <Eolus> We had a headache earlier and I dun know maybe I'm just wantin' to laugh
04:39:56 <oerjan> well it is good to practice one's evil cackling
04:41:58 <oerjan> still addicted to 30x30 Bridges
04:42:58 <Eolus> Ok, So I made a self modifying encryption key for my bot
04:43:04 <Eolus> and I am proud of me self
04:43:17 <Eolus> Although it breaks every other day ;--;
04:43:48 <int-e> oerjan: I'm soooo sorry.
04:44:12 <oerjan> you have to make it _remember_ that you modified it hth
04:44:27 <oerjan> no, the 30x30 Bridges is int-e's fault
04:45:13 <int-e> oerjan: you did retaliate however, by pointing me to yet another webcomic.
04:45:28 <Eolus> lol webcomics and oerjan
04:45:58 <int-e> (namely, Rice Boy)
04:46:11 <oerjan> well i learned about rice boy on this channel, i think
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04:51:08 <oerjan> kom mai du skjønne milde
04:52:25 <Eolus> http://puu.sh/fxhxd/9833c39b67.gif
04:56:51 <int-e> Eolus: You're so || close to failing the Turing test.
04:58:16 <Eolus> I have no idea who you are ^_^
05:03:28 <oren> neildegrasse_ok_well.gif
05:08:47 <oerjan> int-e: wait are you saying Eolus has been a bot all along
05:13:44 <oren> osaka_oh_mai_gaa.m4a
05:16:00 <int-e> oerjan: no, of course not. stop reading between the lines!
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05:17:54 <oerjan> int-e: well i have to do it to keep passing the turing test
05:18:27 <oren> Eolus: the correct format for dates, btw is YYYY-MM-DD
05:18:44 <oren> or maybe YYYY.MM.DD
05:19:50 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/1179/
05:20:33 <oren> Although, there should be a standard for where and how to put the weekday
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05:21:33 <oren> One idea is to do 2015-02F06
05:22:06 <oren> With letters MTWRFSU for the weekdays
05:22:29 <oerjan> i agree that it is one idea.
05:23:42 <int-e> 2015-02-06 is 2015-W05-5
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05:24:17 <oren> Hmm. In japan they do Y年M月D日（W）
05:24:28 <int-e> elliott: thanks, you're right.
05:24:28 <HackEgo> January 2015 \ Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa \ 1 2 3 \ 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 \ 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 \ 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 \ 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
05:24:37 <int-e> `` date +%Y-W%V-%u
05:25:01 <int-e> date has a few too many of those week number and day of week format strings.
05:25:43 <oerjan> hm so it includes the short week?
05:26:18 <oerjan> which is officially a week of the previous year
05:26:44 <int-e> yes. note that the ISO week is from Mo to Su, so that's 4 days in 2015.
05:26:48 <oerjan> it starts listing on Su
05:26:55 <Eolus> who said I was doing dates?
05:27:06 <oerjan> Eolus: so you prefer figs?
05:27:08 <int-e> Eolus: this channel isn't about you.
05:27:32 <Eolus> Go to your cupboard
05:29:17 <oerjan> Eolus: please be more polite.
05:29:22 <int-e> oh, %Y is also wrong.
05:29:51 <int-e> `` date +%G-W%V-%u -d2016-01-01
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05:37:11 <oren> `` LC_TIME=jp_JA.utf8 ; date
05:37:11 <HackEgo> bash: warning: setlocale: LC_TIME: cannot change locale (jp_JA.utf8): No such file or directory \ Fri Feb 6 05:37:09 UTC 2015
05:37:21 <oren> `` LC_TIME=jp_JA ; date
05:37:21 <HackEgo> bash: warning: setlocale: LC_TIME: cannot change locale (jp_JA): No such file or directory \ Fri Feb 6 05:37:19 UTC 2015
05:42:16 <HackEgo> Fri Feb 6 14:42:14 JST 2015
05:42:18 <oren> Anyway the japanese notation has the advantage that each part of the date is clearly labeled, making an order irrelevant
05:45:47 <oren> Effectivley the advantage is the same as assigned arguments for a function call
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10:13:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41854&oldid=40843 * Elboza * (+213) /* Notable implementations */
10:15:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41855&oldid=41791 * Elboza * (+213) /* Normal implementations */
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10:21:26 <J_Arcane> writing mutation feels so wrong now ...
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10:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41856&oldid=41854 * Ais523 * (-213) Undo revision 41854 by [[Special:Contributions/Elboza|Elboza]] ([[User talk:Elboza|talk]]) this shouldn't be on both lists, and this one is the wrong one
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13:00:14 <Taneb> Officially learnt about the "Fundamental Theorem of Linear Transformations" today
13:00:45 <Taneb> It seems very similar to what I know as the "Fundamental Theorem of Group Homomorphisms"
13:01:08 <Taneb> Both are S/Ker(phi) ~= Im(phi)
13:01:12 <Taneb> Is there something deeper going on?
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13:05:30 <b_jonas> Taneb: sure, a vector space is a group, and all vector space homomorphisms are group homomorphisms as well (but not the reverse)
13:05:43 <b_jonas> but that's not really "something deeper" I guess
13:05:52 <Taneb> b_jonas, but a vector space has more conditions than a group
13:06:12 <Taneb> And not all group homomorphisms end up as linear transformations
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13:47:09 <jameseb> Taneb: I was under the impression that that was what category theory was for, though I don't know enough category theory to verify that
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15:55:26 <Taneb> I've just reread the end of IWC backwards
15:55:39 * oerjan cannot quite stop quibbling about the Typeable bug
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15:56:39 <oerjan> Taneb: so it's about several groups of people falling from prosperity, through great disaster, and into a continued life of trouble and chaos?
15:57:02 <Taneb> oerjan, it made me realise that Choking may in fact be DMM
15:58:26 <Taneb> DMM's body and Hitler's brain
15:59:10 <Taneb> http://irregularwebcomic.net/3147.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/3158.html http://irregularwebcomic.net/3165.html
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16:01:35 <oerjan> that _does_ look deliberate indeed.
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16:04:16 <Taneb> I need to reread IWC
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16:13:42 <b_jonas> DMM is present as a self-insert in IWC and he's not the same as Choking
16:13:55 <b_jonas> he time travels and almost kills himself or something
16:20:46 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's actually hitler who is the same as choking
16:21:04 <oerjan> also, there's not "almost" about it.
16:23:11 <Koen__> are you all regular fans of iwc?
16:23:58 <oerjan> it was the first webcomic i read, and i learned about it on this channel.
16:24:24 <oerjan> Taneb and b_jonas traveled in the opposite direction :P
16:26:26 <Taneb> Yeah, it was my first webcomic, and eventually got me into esolangs and actually CS as a whole
16:26:29 <int-e> I used to like IWC but got bored around the 2700 strips mark.
16:27:09 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is there something deeper going on? <-- yes. there are versions of those theorems for universal algebras.
16:27:18 <b_jonas> the first webcomic I read was StickManStickMan, now at http://stickman.qntm.org/index.php , which was already completed when I first read it
16:27:21 <Taneb> Universal... algebra?
16:28:03 <oerjan> Taneb: think of groups, monoids, rings, vector spaces etc. as all being special cases of operations on a set
16:28:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: do you mean K-vector spaces for a particular fixed field K?
16:28:55 <oerjan> if _some_ of the operations give you a group, then you have kernels, and the theorems have essentially the same form. otherwise you need to use "congruences".
16:29:42 <oerjan> but otherwise it's quite analogous regardless of the type of algebra.
16:30:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: ok, and how much extra do you need for the form on finitely generated vector spaces, where you can also claim that the dimension of of the source space is equal to the dimension of the kernel plus the dimension of the image?
16:30:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: ouch. that doesn't even hold for modules i think, so quite specific.
16:31:05 <oerjan> modules aren't always free and so don't have a basis.
16:31:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, it's specific for vector spaces, but quite important
16:31:47 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what happens in infinite dimensional spaces
16:31:58 <oerjan> i think it may be summarized as "all vector spaces are free"
16:32:07 <oerjan> although i'm not sure if that's enough
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16:32:45 <oerjan> in fact there's probably a module counterexample about free submodules of free modules behaving nicely
16:33:08 <oerjan> my memory of that stuff is old
16:33:18 <b_jonas> you don't really have a sane dimension in modules
16:33:37 <b_jonas> not even when finitely generated
16:34:27 <b_jonas> Infinite vector spaces supposedly have a basis and so they have a dimension, though I've never tried to understand the proof for this. It's an axiom of choice thing.
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16:35:04 <oerjan> int-e: you seem to have become bored about when dmm started wrapping things up for the finale...
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16:37:03 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I'm not sure what happens in infinite dimensional spaces <-- i think it still holds as long as you sum cardinalities. of course you cannot subtract then.
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16:37:57 <oerjan> b_jonas: yeah it's basically about using zorn's lemma to increase your independent set until it generates everything.
16:38:12 <oerjan> nothing complicated, actually.
16:38:55 <oerjan> just it needs the big cannon
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16:40:27 <b_jonas> Meh, the zorn lemma isn't the big cannon.
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16:40:57 <b_jonas> Not when the calculus guys use basic theorems whose proofs are really complicated, unlike that of the zorn lemma.
16:40:58 <oerjan> well then there's nothing complicated at all :P
16:41:09 <int-e> oerjan: yeah maybe he should've done that sooner then *ducks*
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16:42:41 <b_jonas> well, http://mathoverflow.net/a/99568/5340 states zorn lemma is big guns in the sense I claim it's not
16:46:22 <oerjan> Taneb: anyway, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomorphism_theorem#General
16:46:47 <b_jonas> also, aren't there two or three fundamental theorems?
16:47:57 <oerjan> the one discussed here is the first
16:48:27 <b_jonas> ok wait, I don't think I want to do universal algebra directly, so let me look at the group ones, those I'll probably recognize
16:50:00 <b_jonas> Yes, I think I've heared of these for groups.
16:50:49 <b_jonas> And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rank%E2%80%93nullity_theorem is the one about vector space dimensions
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16:53:11 <oerjan> i was about to link that
16:55:20 <oerjan> to get an intuition for the general, you need to understand that kernels/normal subgroups/ideals are all specific ways of encoding a congruence
16:55:27 <HackEgo> isomorphism theorem? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:56:35 <b_jonas> you need that to understand normal subgroups and ideals in rings in first place
16:57:19 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, at least in the first case that's just stating the standard definition with slightly different terms
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16:57:39 <Phantom__Hoover> i dunno about the second and third because, well, who actually gives a shit about the second and third isomorphism theorems
16:57:49 <b_jonas> Phantom__Hoover: what? they're useful
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16:59:09 <oerjan> also, defining a congruence as a subalgebra of A x A may be elegant, but maybe not the most pedagogic way.
16:59:35 <oerjan> also, i agree with both of you, they're useful but i can only remember the first :P
17:00:21 <oerjan> without straining my brain, anyhow
17:00:43 <b_jonas> I mean, you use them all the time without referring to them explicitly
17:00:44 <Phantom__Hoover> the second and third are useful properties of algebraic quotients; the first fundamentally encapsulates what algebraic quotients are
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17:01:21 <oerjan> anyway, should be going ->
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17:01:47 <Phantom__Hoover> i remember when i saw the thing about short exact sequences and quotients in hatcher it seemed like witchcraft, even though it's fairly simple
17:01:52 <b_jonas> which is the usual way algebra works
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17:07:33 <Koen__> b_jonas: you can actually do a lot of things with ideals without understanding they have anything to do with congruences
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17:13:35 <Koen__> (I know that because I didn't)
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17:14:53 <Koen__> random thought: why are there so many brainfuck derivatives and so few Turing-machine derivatives on the wiki?
17:17:09 <MDude> They're basically the same thing, technically.
17:17:59 <MDude> Brainfuck with an endless tape is just a specific kind of turing machine, as is P''.
17:18:03 <Koen__> well that's my point! but Turing-machines are historically more relevant, and in my opinion, more fun
17:21:07 <zzo38> It is very easy to compile brainfuck or P'' into Turing machines as each instruction would easily correspond to one state, although sometimes you can merge states
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17:30:09 <oren> Brainfuck is easier to derive something from
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17:31:12 <MDude> I just mean the reverse is also true.
17:31:38 <MDude> Any turing machine could be described in a way that makes it look like a Brainfuck derivative.
17:31:46 <MDude> People just go with BF b/c rude.
17:32:05 <oren> Also brainfuck is easy to understand for nonmathy people
17:32:52 <oren> because it is the ultimate simplification of the imperative, structured paradigm
17:33:43 <MDude> P" is actually simpler.
17:35:06 <MDude> Though it does require that epople write ?.
17:35:13 <oren> but turing machines involve symbols and states and rules, where BF has numbers and characters in the code
17:35:20 <MDude> Which as you can see isn't even an ASCII character.
17:36:45 <oren> this is a lamda: λ
17:37:57 <zzo38> You can make the P'' version with ASCII though
17:39:23 <oren> Hm... Is it P" or P''
17:40:18 <Koen__> "nonmathy people" know what a decision tree is, and that looks exactly like an automaton
17:40:39 <b_jonas> nonmathy people probably don't care about this stuff
17:40:40 <Koen__> whereas ++++[-] doesn't look like much
17:42:01 <oren> Koen: I mean people who are qualified to take Game Development 101 but not Game Theory 101
17:42:22 <Koen__> (also by decision tree I probably meant flow chart)
17:43:27 <MDude> A flow chart would more complex than a simple automaton.
17:43:32 <oren> Although I annoy the hell out of my dad by incessantly referring to my game development course as "Game Theory"
17:48:39 <oren> With the course naming problems at UofT, the course that should be named "Operations Research" is named Algorithm Design, Analysis, and Complexity
17:48:56 <oren> So I might not have been wrong
17:54:42 <MDude> To be fair, Operations Research sounds like a course where you research military operations.
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19:15:55 <zzo38> Is it possible to make up an orthodox Magic: the Puzzling where player 1 has a way to gain any amount of life, but only once, and they win if they can set their life total to a Collatz counterexample?
19:20:22 <zzo38> (And otherwise they cannot possibly win)
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19:56:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41857 * Mihip * (+1672) Created page with "Wct is hex numeric system analog, but fully consists entirely of the letters. WARNING! Writing a program on it will blow your mind. Wct editor - machine code editor for Wct. =..."
19:58:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41858&oldid=41857 * Mihip * (+4) /* Notes */
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20:18:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41859&oldid=41809 * Mihip * (+10) /* W */
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22:55:55 <newsham> http://bertfreudenberg.github.io/SqueakJS/
23:02:42 <J_Arcane> heh. I was just thinking about writing a library for .js strings and then clicked here and now there's Squeak.
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23:13:11 <J_Arcane> I thought about implementing string specific versions of the usual first-class functions, you know. So you could do like "string".map().filter() or whatever.
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23:19:54 <J_Arcane> I'm sure someone's already written that, but it would be a fun learning project.
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23:47:31 <oerjan> zzo38: if the collatz counterexample can be one which grows indefinitely rather than looping, and if the win condition has to be detected in finite time, then i don't see how you can possibly distinguish that from a number that just takes a very long time to reach 1
23:48:05 <oerjan> (i say this knowing very little about MtG)
23:48:42 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 if the collatz counterexample can be one which grows indefinitely rather than looping, and if the win condition has to be detected in finite time, then i don't see how you can possibly distinguish that from a number that just takes a very long time to reach 1
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