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00:59:20 <Sgeo> Is it reasonable or unreasonable to expect alpha software to not crash and die on untrusted input?
01:19:59 <FreeFull> Browsers really should handle untrusted inputs well, because the entirety of the web is an untrusted input..
01:21:07 <Sgeo> The question is, as alpha software?
01:21:17 <Sgeo> Not sure what sort of issue
01:21:27 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/janusVR/comments/2v191r/security/
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01:33:25 <zzo38> Of course any internet client or server needs to untrust the input from the other side please (although they could have configuration options to partially trust them, it should normally be untrusted by default; some internet software might be very special case though so they have other requirements).
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01:58:34 <Jafet> No more unreasonable than expecting ubiquitous release-version software to get pwnedzord on untrusted input
01:58:42 <Jafet> which it does, every day
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02:02:40 * oerjan is pretty sure Jafet reversed his sense of meaning there
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02:17:24 <oren> Sgeo: depends what kind of software it is
02:20:36 <oren> Web browsers are effectively interpreters for a messy dialect group of programming languages.
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02:21:04 <oren> So i wouldn't say it's unexpected that they could segfault
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02:22:06 <zzo38> It isn't unexpected but it still isn't supposed to and it is still way too messy even if it doesn't segfault.
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02:27:42 <oren> Anyway this JanusVR thing looks like crap. If you're going to reinvent the internet, make it entirely new and better, standardize it, and for the love of god, don't base it on XML.
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02:29:56 <MDude> Web, technically, not internet.
02:33:27 <MDude> And not even neccisarily a full replacement for browsers.
02:33:43 <oren> Right. The main problem is that the web is an application framework that evolved from a document format.
02:34:26 <MDude> It seems more like a VR thing that happens to use web pages as supplimentary source of level design.
02:35:13 <MDude> Which I wouldn't mind, but if something's going to be a web browser it should follow an open specification.
02:35:26 <zzo38> The web is a terrible mess.
02:35:35 <MDude> Not neccesarilly an enforced standard, though.
02:36:01 <zzo38> You call it "an application framework that evolved from a document format", but actually it is a mess.
02:37:03 * MDude scraps javacript and CSS for not being based on SGML.
02:39:11 <oren> zzo38: I agree.
02:41:22 <oren> That's why so many websites now have their own apps
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02:42:53 <zzo38> oren: That isn't really quite a solution either
02:43:19 <lambdabot> ENVA 070150Z 26027KT 9999 BKN028 06/02 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 26025G39KT
02:43:37 <oerjan> which part of that tells that the weather is getting ugly twh
02:43:38 <Sgeo> MDude: it has a web browser in it.
02:43:47 <Sgeo> If you press esc, you see the web page version of the world you're in
02:43:55 <Sgeo> Also can put web pages on surfaces
02:44:24 <MDude> I don't think there's a VR client that doens't have a web browser of some sort built in.
02:44:44 <MDude> Except for maybe a few that are built into web browser.
02:44:46 <Sgeo> Does Flatland?
02:45:10 <MDude> It's a Netscape plugin, so it's in another browser already.
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02:45:20 <Sgeo> I know a "web os" that has a web browser
02:45:33 <zzo38> Actually I think there are some VR clients which don't have a web browser or be a web browser plugin.
02:45:36 <MDude> There's the standalone Flatland rover, but I haven't used it.
02:45:52 <zzo38> There is Gopher VR, for one thing, and a few others I forget.
02:46:15 * Sgeo will soon have an Oculus, hopefully
02:46:56 <oren> I was going to put a web browser in a game i was making, but it turned out to be too hard
02:47:17 <oren> HTML (even a small subset) is too hard to parse
02:48:46 <oren> zzo38: I put TTML it
02:48:48 <zzo38> Hopefully is a bit more easily than HTML.
02:49:24 <zzo38> The format used in Perl
02:49:42 <oren> Pod is a nice format
02:51:30 <MDude> You mean timed text or tagged text?
02:51:53 <oren> I mean the esolang
02:52:11 <MDude> So neither of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTML
02:52:19 <oren> which uses the C0 control codes for formatting
02:52:52 <oren> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ttml
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02:55:04 <oren> In the version my game implements, the ^[ ^] codes are used for formatting the hyperlinks
02:56:10 <MDude> Sounds similar to ANSI escape codes.
02:56:13 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
02:57:19 <oren> Like ^[next/page/path^_Click
02:57:48 <oren> the links would be formatted like that
03:03:06 <oren> Dammit would people please stop writing japanese with Chinese Simplified characters?!
03:04:45 <zzo38> Yes please do and start writing with Japanese characters. (I also don't like Simplified Chinese, but that is a different thing.)
03:05:35 <oren> That's what I mean: http://snag.gy/eVLhS.jpg
03:08:57 <MDude> I'll just go ahead and write things in Sarus.
03:09:27 <oren> The lyrics should say: 君の向かい風 僕が背に受
03:09:53 <pikhq> oren: Aaaagh! Wrong wrong wrong!
03:10:18 <oren> Note the difference in the third and fourth kanji
03:10:50 <oren> pikhq: me or the screenshot's lyrics
03:11:36 <naturalog> haha oren i was sure you're israeli, oren is a hebrew name and means palm (the tree) :)
03:11:54 <oren> naturallog: I'm Canadian
03:12:37 <naturalog> i wish i was canadian too :) haha really :(
03:13:59 <naturalog> btw is anyone here familiar with the lang Maude? i was wondering where it is on the lambda cube
03:15:52 <oerjan> looks like it'd be on a different cube
03:16:08 <oerjan> (whichever prolog is in)
03:16:46 <naturalog> but couldnt be sure about it. im also new to the lambda stuff
03:17:23 <naturalog> afaict prolog is FOL, still Maude is HOL
03:17:35 <oerjan> well i don't actually know maude, just looking at the wikipedia article
03:18:12 <naturalog> i was wondering cause im interested on this formalism http://federwin.sip.ucm.es/sic/investigacion/publicaciones/pdfs/Kademlia%20SpecificationSummary0212.pdf
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03:32:33 <oren> "First we define the sort Bit"... God damn it why are booleans not built in????
03:33:16 <oren> s/why are/why; are/
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03:38:44 <elliott> why build booleans in if you don't have to
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03:40:42 <elliott> okay yes so it's in some speicifcation language
03:40:49 <elliott> I dunno, I don't get why you're complaining about this
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03:42:34 <elliott> it also looks like it does and they defined everything themselves for simplicity or greater control: "NOTE: If you want to test these examples on your own, you should start Maude with the option -no-prelude which lets Maude know that none of its basic modules are included (like Maude's own NAT module which will cause a conflict)."
03:42:51 <elliott> (well, potentially. it's possible that it has naturals but not bits.)
03:42:59 <elliott> anyway, bits and booleans aren't really the same thing
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03:43:09 <elliott> 0 isn't inherently a false-y bit
03:43:23 <elliott> and having to write [false,true,true,false] for 0110 is a pain
03:43:56 <elliott> "And as you can see the state this person ends up in might look a bit strange. (When you're married at the age of one you kind of stick out a bit in kindergarten I guess)." wikipedia's article on maude is a wild ride
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03:47:51 <oren> Oh god it went back to simplified chinese
03:48:52 <oren> elliott: i'm surprised wikipedia's people didn't "clean it up" by making it all unfun
03:49:59 <oren> Wikipedia is full of killjoys
03:53:13 <MDude> Write [ja,da,da,ja]. Or [da,ja,ja,da].
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03:55:36 <oren> MDude: what language is that?
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03:56:08 <MDude> "The Hardest Logic Puzzle Ever" three gods language
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04:30:10 <oren> Google translate doesn't work well on multilingual text
04:34:20 <int-e> MDude: Addendum: When a God is asked a question that they cannot answer in a logically consistent way, they smite you. Good luck.
04:38:57 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/lf1xao06b/
04:39:32 <oren> It does this when the rest of the page is in Chinese
04:39:55 <zzo38> Do you have to assume that you automatically lose if smited and are not allowed to figure out the answer after that?
04:40:42 <int-e> zzo38: I'm not sure. Usually, when solving a puzzle involves my own death, I look for a new one.
04:41:32 <oren> A setting where gods exist tends to involve an afterlife
04:41:59 <oren> Although if smited you would probably end up living with the liar god
04:43:06 <int-e> MDude: https://xkcd.com/246/ is relevant, too.
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04:48:18 <naturalog> ic they do mention calculus of constructions "near" maude, maybe its dtlc http://maude.cs.illinois.edu/w/index.php?title=Other_Tools
04:48:38 <zzo38> oren: Unless you can prove that you would end up living with the liar god, such thing doesn't help.
04:52:57 <MDude> I don't think living with the liar god would be particularly annyoing compared to the others.
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04:54:14 <MDude> The coin flip god could get tiresome just because you'd have to be mroe vrbose in aksing questions.
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04:54:51 <zzo38> Whether or not it is annoying doesn't seem to be relevant?
04:55:24 <zzo38> Only if you can win or not by figuring out the question, isn't it?
04:56:07 <MDude> I was under the impression oren would sent people to the liar god when smiting them due to presuming that this would be the relatively "bad" afterlife.
04:56:49 <zzo38> If being smited doesn't automatically mean you lose, then being smited is just another way to answer your question isn't it? Therefore you can figure it out from that.
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04:58:25 <MDude> My aforementioned comment directed towards oren is beyond the scope of the puzzle.
05:00:34 <oren> Hm... I was going off of Christian mythology where Satan is the prince of lies.
05:02:33 <MDude> Makes sense, though he sounds more like a Bizzaro.
05:03:22 <MDude> Worse would be if you had to live with someone who only communicates in yes-no responses as your only source of conversation to begin with.
05:03:28 <pikhq> For extra-bizzaro, Jesus is referred to as "lucifer" in the Vulgate.
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05:06:06 <naturalog> "16:02 < MDude> Worse would be if you had to live with someone who only communicates in yes-no responses as your only" i think the concept of undecidability comes clear when someone pushes you to answer yes/no only
05:06:18 <zzo38> I suppose it might be a title because he is often called light of the world, but that isn't his name, although neither is Jesus; his name is supposed to be Yeshua Ben Josef.
05:06:54 <zzo38> But I don't have a copy of Vulgate anyways.
05:06:55 <naturalog> ^ yes on the hebrew sources he's called Yeshua
05:08:54 <pikhq> zzo38: It was used to describe him as the "light of the world", yes.
05:10:33 <zzo38> pikhq: So, even if it looks like "extra-bizzaro", at least I can see the reason clearly.
05:10:48 <oren> So in English his name would be Jesus Jesephson?
05:11:09 <pikhq> oren: No, "Jesus Ben Josef" or "Yeshua Ben Josef".
05:11:21 <pikhq> Modern English doesn't have a rule of Anglicizing names.
05:11:23 <zzo38> oren: I think so, but I don't study all that history?
05:13:11 <pikhq> naturalog: XD You are right.
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05:14:18 <oren> What little I know of Christianity is from interactions with the Christian half of my family
05:14:54 <oren> So I dunno if the Devil is supposed to lie all the time, or just sometimes
05:15:45 <zzo38> oren: Some things I know of Christianity from my family but also from studying; sometimes I read various book and learn various stuff, and sometimes I just ask a question, or I just heard/read what someone else has said.
05:15:49 <int-e> in the logic puzzles I've seen He seems to lie constantly.
05:16:20 <int-e> Which is, of course, a stupid strategy for an evil entity.
05:17:27 <MDude> He did invent lies, not neccessarily perfect using them.
05:17:44 <zzo38> int-e: That's just a made up puzzle situation anyways though, so it doesn't matter if other entity's strategy is stupid as long as it is formalized isn't it?
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06:13:34 <b_jonas> oren: no, I think the trope is that the Devil never lies, but he uses confusing statements and twisting words
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06:27:47 <oren> b_jonas: I see
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06:30:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttml]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41860&oldid=41403 * Orenwatson * (+1) uugh, i must have been drunk
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07:17:23 <zzo38> I tried to think of how to combine mahjong with Magic: the Gathering.
07:18:17 <zzo38> What I came up with is the mahjong hand is played during the oya's precombat main and dobon rule must be used
07:21:13 <zzo38> You can have 1 life point = 1000 mahjong point; fractional life points remain unaffected by Magic: the Gathering except if you have 100-900 you still don't lose.
07:23:34 <zzo38> What would you think is better way?
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09:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wct]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41861 * Rdebath * (+479) /* The Greeks already did this. */ new section
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11:03:14 <J_Arcane> I miss tail call optimization. :P
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11:13:39 <oren> J_Arcane: I do tail calls with Goto in C
11:14:50 <oren> But for some reason people frown on me setting all the parameters and 'goto start;'
11:17:52 <oren> You can sometimes convert a goto to a do{}while() loop
11:18:24 <oren> a lot of people forget all about the humble do{}while() loop
11:19:42 <J_Arcane> this is bizarre. My code doesn't terminate unless I use my function as a method instead of a function ...
11:20:22 <J_Arcane> nm, I see what I've done wrong. weird as hell that it works that way at all ...
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11:28:14 <J_Arcane> neat. a CMS in haskell. https://github.com/lambdacms/lambdacms-core
11:33:58 <Jafet> Basics of web design http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/index.php
11:34:47 <elliott> http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/splash3.gif is a fantastic image
11:36:00 <oren> It can. Oberth Manever
11:36:15 <Taneb> elliott, gravity helps me stay on the ground sometimes
11:36:19 <Jafet> Yes, it has a lot of potential.
11:37:36 <Jafet> J_Arcane: http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/
11:38:40 <J_Arcane> Jafet: Yeah, really looking forward to ES6.
11:39:16 <J_Arcane> sadly, looks like fucking no one supports it yet, standard or no. . . :P
11:40:45 <Jafet> I like comparison tables that have single-valued rows
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12:00:50 <J_Arcane> also amusing that IE tech preview rates higher in compliance than anything except 6to5 transpilers ...
12:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> effect, not manoeuvre, and i think they were probably referring to gravity assists
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13:36:04 * Melvar recently used a foreach-until loop. >ω>
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13:57:21 <FreeFull> Do you mean having a conditional break at the end of the loop?
14:00:12 <Melvar> FreeFull: Well, no, It was actually phrased foreach … until, because in the language in question you can use any loop opener with any loop closer. The effect is the same though.
14:02:19 <FreeFull> Melvar: So, does that language allow a while while loop?
14:03:55 <Melvar> No, while is neither an opener nor a closer, but actually a negative conditional break. It’s a forth variant btw.
14:16:03 <Melvar> Basically you use “begin … repeat” (by itself an infinite loop) and stick “<condition> while” in there. At the beginning it’s like a while loop, at the end it’s like a do-while loop.
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15:14:37 <tswett> That reminds me of how Python has while-else and try-else.
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15:25:41 <Melvar> elliott: MUF, a forthish variant, a scripting language used in some MU*s, but my only resource on it (the guy who asked for help) says every place that uses it has its own incompatible set of builtins and such.
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17:11:34 <mroman> we should do a #howesolangerslook
17:11:45 <mroman> as an analogy to #howgamerslook
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17:51:30 <Taneb> Is there a name for the class of languages which are turing complete when their output is pumped back into the program?
17:51:35 <Taneb> eg. C preprocessor?
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17:58:42 <FreeFull> Taneb: So, turing complete when stuck in an outer loop?
18:02:51 <elliott> "pretty much anything that can branch"
18:03:11 <mroman> trees are turing complete
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18:05:01 <Koen_> mroman: yes, because they are stuck in the seasons loop
18:05:12 <MDream> Oh, neat http://fll.presidentbeef.com/
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18:07:40 <MDude> It's a list of languages that aren't neccessarily esoteric, but aren't widespread either.
18:07:42 <mroman> These creepy lumber jacks are always trying to destroy my turing machines.
18:08:05 <mroman> If fungot were here he would think the same way
18:08:54 <MDude> That's the kind of language the reversible language I want to get to will be.
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18:09:49 <MDude> It'll only have branchine, but its output is to meant to get pumped back into it, with parts of it optionally replaced by input.
18:10:29 <mroman> http://kittenlang.org/
18:10:44 <mroman> it's statically typed and stack based
18:10:48 <mroman> that's always a plus point
18:12:50 <J_Arcane> heh. I should submit Heresy to that.
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18:14:21 <mroman> stuck in an outer loop is the same as having a recursive function
18:14:53 <mroman> ok not exactly the same
18:15:00 <mroman> but I think same enough :)
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18:43:18 <AndoDaan> Is there anything like an Object Oriented Assembly language in existance?
18:47:42 <quintopia> you might consider jvm bytecodes to be essentially that? a lot of the abstraction of objects is removed...
18:52:13 <AndoDaan> I kinda just threw to words together. But that's quite a good interpretation, I think.
18:54:51 <J_Arcane> AndoDaan: Yes. I can't remember what it's called though.
18:55:56 <J_Arcane> there's this for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Level_Assembly
18:57:41 <AndoDaan> "object-oriented assembly language programming." Didn't actually think it would exist.
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18:59:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41862&oldid=41858 * Mihip * (+891) /* Examples */
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19:14:24 <mroman> http://codepad.org/NKldiU4a
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19:17:46 <mroman> http://codepad.org/kV0MSf49
19:17:58 <mroman> Burlesque is becoming somewhat shellscripty I guess
19:20:00 <AndoDaan> Cool. When Anagol adopts it, we'll finally be able to do the "123" golf task.
19:20:26 <AndoDaan> hmm, does the time thingie show milliseconds?
19:20:41 <mroman> time /t doesn't show milliseconds
19:21:09 <mroman> time /t is windows though
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19:23:41 <mroman> it's not backwards compatible
19:23:56 <mroman> because I need some characters to signal "io expression" or "blsq expression"
19:31:23 <mroman> AndoDaan: there's also blsq on the web
19:31:32 <mroman> it's all bullshit of course
19:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41863&oldid=41862 * Mihip * (+495) /* Examples */
19:32:34 <mroman> because it's useless crap?
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19:35:40 <AndoDaan> Hmm, my view of it is of course narrowed by the code golfing. BUt I've used Burlesque for other stuff occasionally.
19:36:34 <AndoDaan> Counting substring, getting all permutations of a list. Was a lot quicker to just fire uup the shell.
19:36:57 <mroman> That's what I created it for :)
19:37:13 <AndoDaan> Some people use J for serious reason, I thought. Why not your baby too?
19:37:24 <mroman> because my baby is fuckingly slow :)
19:42:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wct]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41864&oldid=41863 * Mihip * (-31)
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19:57:24 <FreeFull> J has a built-in verb for getting the nth permutation
19:58:23 <Taneb> There are now two York programming meetup groups both meeting on the last Thursday of the month at 7PM...
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20:09:50 <Taneb> quintopia, they have no overlap
20:09:56 <Taneb> One's for Haskell and one's for JavaScript
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20:12:57 <Koen_> yeah but then there's gonna be a third group about Scala and they'll all want to go
20:13:56 <Taneb> Koen_, JavaScript and Scala have very little in common at all
20:14:01 <Taneb> You may be getting mixed up with Java
20:14:30 <Taneb> Of course, if Elm takes off...
20:14:37 <J_Arcane> Although you can compile Scala to JabaScript.
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20:15:07 <Taneb> J_Arcane, you can also compile Haskell to JavaScript
20:15:26 <J_Arcane> Taneb: Yup. Really, you can compile damn near anything to JavaScript these days.
20:15:38 <J_Arcane> Thanks to asm.js and Emscripten anyway ...
20:15:53 <Taneb> You can even compile Node to JavaScript!
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20:20:04 <mroman> they should've standardized a VM for Browsers rather than Javascript
20:20:31 <Lilax> Make like a book an livre
20:32:37 <zzo38> I think better would be they don't need a script
20:33:48 <mroman> how the fuck do you delete pictures on facebook?
20:34:20 <AndoDaan> Befriend Mark, and ask him nicely.
20:34:36 <AndoDaan> Though they're never really gone.
20:35:06 <zzo38> You can also use JavaScript programs with Synchronet as server-side scripts for HTTP or as door programs for telnet access
20:35:34 <zzo38> (Synchronet can also use DOS programs and native programs as door programs too)
20:36:34 <zzo38> Of course XULrunner stuff is also all in JavaScripts.
20:38:41 <zzo38> Do you like to combine mahjong and other games with Magic: the Gathering?
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20:51:30 <mroman> why not write the browser itself in javascript
20:51:46 <zzo38> I suppose you could, although it might be slow
20:52:30 <zzo38> You would still need to make the graphics libraries and so on accessible to JavaScripts though
20:53:34 <mroman> just make them part of ECMA Standard
20:53:38 <J_Arcane> mroman: I think Vivaldi is doing the UI in HTML/CSS/JS.
20:54:17 <zzo38> Mozilla has the HTML and CSS implementations in C++ but all of the menus and stuff of the browser are implemented in JavaScript.
20:54:18 <J_Arcane> And there's Breach, which is in fact written in pure JS. http://breach.cc/
20:54:50 <J_Arcane> (though I guess technically it's still on top of the Chromium engine by way of node.js)
21:16:05 <zzo38> All official world cards in Magic: the Gathering are global enchantments, but I also want to make up a world creature, a world land, and a world Aura
21:25:24 <zzo38> Kjugobe's Psychic Control {5UU} Enchantment - Aura :: Enchant spell :: Enchanted spell gains split second. :: You control enchanted spell's controller. :: Flash, Ripple 2
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21:37:19 <J_Arcane> I always forget about the ternary operator.
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22:21:29 <J_Arcane> (It says “I like to move the behavior of unsophisticated young engineers by making this job seem fun by buying 20 cent cans of soda, saving myself tens of thousands in compensation while simultaneously encouraging them to ruin their health.” And I like soda.)
22:21:30 <J_Arcane> http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/
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22:38:03 <J_Arcane> I wonder what I should think about the fact that so many of my Codewars solutions are uniques ...
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22:47:19 <Vorpal> Not often when you select a new package in aptitude and see that it will download over 360 MB... Got it down to 127 MB by removing some recommended dependencies I didn't really need. Still massive.
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23:09:37 <zzo38> Do you think this is correct way to make IRC bot (dealing with buffering and whatever else is necessary)? http://sprunge.us/fSeb
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23:39:31 <Vorpal> Hm a popup saying std::bad_alloc when opening a program is a bit worrying, even though it appears to be working correctly otherwise...
23:40:15 <MDude> And I'm scrolled up.
23:41:43 <J_Arcane> Woo! 6to5 just got TCO: https://github.com/6to5/6to5/pull/714
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