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00:04:38 <MDude> Also, I read what I was replying to wrong to begin with.
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00:20:04 <zzo38> Do you know IRC bot writing stuff?
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01:41:59 <Sgeo> General Biotics has moved their study end date to mid 2015
01:42:01 <Sgeo> "Our 200 person, placebo-controlled study is slated for completion in mid 2015. "
01:42:54 <Sgeo> http://www.generalbiotics.com/robots.txt
01:43:05 <Sgeo> They're explicitly and specifically blocking the Internet Archive
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02:13:53 <paul2520> it bothers me when sites do that
02:14:12 <paul2520> though sometimes I get it, if the site is really dynamic
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02:15:07 <Sgeo> But it's been blocked since Dec 2014
02:15:07 <Sgeo> http://wayback.archive.org/web/20141217104405/http://www.generalbiotics.com/robots.txt
02:15:19 <Sgeo> I find it funny IA considers itself allowed to show that
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03:51:14 <Taneb> When did it get to be almost 4 AM?
03:55:30 <Taneb> I think it is a good time for me to get some sleep
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05:03:29 <oren> coding standard proposal: when using the God Object Antipattern, name the object 'God'
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05:07:59 <zzo38> In such a case you usually shouldn't even need an object if you can avoid it (although sometimes you cannot avoid it)
05:08:11 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 5h 19m 28s ago: if the collatz counterexample can be one which grows indefinitely rather than looping, and if the win condition has to be detected in finite time, then i don't see how you can possibly distinguish that from a number that just takes a very long time to reach 1
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05:30:37 <MDude> I just noticed somsone mispelled Javascript as Jabascript earlier a some point.
05:31:17 <MDude> Which made me think there should maybe be a Star Wars themed scripting language called Jabbascript.
05:31:58 <oerjan> MDude: hey stop reading my thoughts
05:32:43 <zzo38> You can try to make it up if you like to
05:33:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Youknowone * New user account
05:34:10 <MDude> I would want to learn Hutese first so I can make it in that.
05:34:38 <AndoDaan_> Another person fiding Esolangs via Anarchy Golf.
05:35:54 <zzo38> A lot of people seem to like to avoid "everything is a filter" kind of programming, but I don't avoid it and probably most of my programs are acting as filters.
05:36:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41865&oldid=40352 * Youknowone * (-61) /* External resources */
05:40:16 <MDude> Oh neat, Huttese uses base 8.
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05:41:36 <zzo38> Why do a lot of people hate it?
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05:54:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41866&oldid=39945 * Ds84182 * (+210) Added a couple of new instructions, fixed the definition of an instruction. Changed some code to work with the fixed instruction definition.
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08:37:00 <zzo38> Are there other functions that you think SQLIRCBOT would require to include built-in?
08:42:01 <J_Arcane> Science! http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/152090/measuring-feline-capacitance
08:49:33 <mroman> How long does it take to become a pro soldat player again
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10:13:13 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Y3sUFPbG
10:13:54 <mroman> the io builtin prepares an IO command to execute
10:22:59 <J_Arcane> this is a Windows computer in a device the size of 4 thumb drives. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-hannspree-micro-pc-review
10:23:33 <Jafet> Uh, what kind of machine has `time /t`
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10:26:06 <mroman> Jafet: ah windows machine
10:28:14 <Jafet> The Windows shell doesn't have backquotes...
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10:29:30 <mroman> a dialect of Burlesque with IO
10:34:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/PK5mSHfG <- see
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10:37:35 <mroman> ok maybe not that cool but still
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11:25:27 <mroman> but let's try something new
11:25:39 <mroman> I'm gonna design an actual useful good-looking language for once
11:35:15 <int-e> b_jonas: it's be perfectly esoteric ;)
11:36:18 <int-e> An esoteric programming language that is unfit for its primary purpose, namely being an esoteric programming language.
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11:46:55 <mroman> parsec runs out of memory o_O
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11:50:51 <mroman> it runs out of mem for parsing 5+5
11:51:25 <mroman> and even for parsing just 5
11:51:26 <int-e> did you write a left-recursive grammar?
11:52:21 <Jafet> It's ok, your mistake is non-terminal.
11:53:07 <mroman> expression = expression bin_op expression
11:54:07 <mroman> I see parsec can't handle that
11:54:51 <b_jonas> don't use recursive descent parsers
11:55:12 <b_jonas> not only because they run out of memory, but because they are hard to debug when you make mistakes, they don't tell you about ambiguities
11:55:20 <b_jonas> use a proper LR parser generator
11:56:04 <mroman> expression bin_op expression is always recursive
11:56:06 <int-e> or do your own factorization, expression = term bin_op expression | term; term = literal | variable | "(" expression ")
11:56:31 <int-e> it gets more tedious with precedences
11:56:52 <mroman> You can fix it by doing expression = '(' expression bin_op expression ')'
11:57:01 <Jafet> @hoogle buildExpressionParser
11:57:03 <lambdabot> Text.ParserCombinators.Parsec.Expr buildExpressionParser :: OperatorTable tok st a -> GenParser tok st a -> GenParser tok st a
11:57:03 <lambdabot> Text.Parsec.Expr buildExpressionParser :: Stream s m t => OperatorTable s u m a -> ParsecT s u m a -> ParsecT s u m a
11:57:19 <int-e> Jafet: have you used that thing?
11:57:54 <mroman> i can make a non-terminal <> terminal distinction
11:58:41 <Jafet> I've never needed to parse expressions
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12:47:00 <mroman> *Main> runString "iMain(){return(5+5)}"
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12:57:06 <Jafet> It's all lazy IO, I assume
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13:04:06 <mroman> http://codepad.org/OnXQ9sME
13:04:15 <mroman> type is encoded in the identifier
13:17:27 <int-e> mroman: There's some precedent for that. (god is real, unless declared as integer...)
13:24:14 <int-e> b_jonas: "<mroman> I'm gonna design an actual useful good-looking language for once" <-- this one, I suppose
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13:54:33 <mroman> the above wouldn't typecheck though
13:54:56 <mroman> but typechecking not implemented yet
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15:11:24 <tswett> So the thing about programming languages is that a programming language usually has some sort of model of computation associated with it.
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15:12:03 <Taneb> So the challenge is abstracting over the computation model?
15:12:22 <tswett> C and C++ have very minimalistic models. Data consists of bytes. Code consists of instructions. That's it.
15:12:51 <tswett> Well, my point is that creating a "perfect programming language" would have to entail creating a perfect computation model, too.
15:13:26 <tswett> Languages like Haskell and Python have "maximalistic" models, which are much easier to use and much harder to implement.
15:13:30 <Jafet> Yes, so minimalistic that it only takes dozens of pages to define them
15:14:37 <tswett> And the thing about linking two pieces of software, as everyone knows, is that it's easy as long as both pieces of software are written in the same language or one of them is written in C.
15:14:39 <Jafet> Let's be fair and only use the pages that talk about the basic memory semantics
15:15:42 <coppro> Jafet: what about the concurrency model in C++? that's a vital part of the underlying computational
15:19:20 <Jafet> Hmm, the memory model had better be defined in less than a hundred pages or I will seriously consider switching to erlang
15:19:21 <tswett> Can you write a Python program that uses a Haskell library? Sure, as long as the Haskell library has a C-shaped interface, or you're calling it via IPC, or something.
15:20:21 <mroman> the real question is why you would ever attempt to do that
15:20:28 <Jafet> Linking with C is pretty hard unless you happen to already have a bunch of C linkers
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15:23:20 <tswett> I guess I should work on coming up with that perfect computation model.
15:23:40 <Jafet> You can invent a new calling convention and force everyone around you to use it, there is nothing special about C in this sense.
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15:34:32 <Jafet> Uh, the latest 14882 public draft is from 2013
15:53:55 <mroman> but don't forget to patent your calling convention
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16:06:15 * J_Arcane is suddenly reconsidering his dismissal of TypeScript ...
16:15:03 <boily> J_Arcanello. what do you not like about undefined?
16:26:25 <J_Arcane> boily: The tendency for JavaScript to return it instead of an error. ditto 'NaN'.
16:28:39 <Jafet> It just means that the result was undefined.
16:29:11 * boily want to completely annihilate NaN into some parallel Universe.
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16:29:25 <boily> J_Arcane: I understand the sentiment.
16:29:36 <J_Arcane> Jafet: yes, but it returns that rather than an error in cases where even dynamic languages would just return an error.
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16:31:44 <J_Arcane> Oh lord, and now I've hit a floating point bug. Yup, this exercise can fuck right the hell off ...
16:33:30 <Jafet> Huh, javascript has exceptions? Why don't they just return null.
16:34:55 <Jafet> boily: a perfectly denormal sentiment.
16:38:26 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, javascript has exception
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17:02:51 <J_Arcane> JavaScript in generally does do some insane implicit behaviors; it seems as if it was designed with 'keep calm and carry on' as a language policy.
17:03:22 <J_Arcane> For example, guess what the following returns: 5 + function (x) { return; }
17:03:55 <tswett> Hm, lemme try to guess.
17:05:15 <tswett> A pet peeve of mine is when a language has a value called "undefined".
17:06:01 <tswett> With one or two exceptions.
17:06:33 <tswett> "Nil" and "null" are fine. Decent ways of saying "no ordinary value".
17:08:09 <tswett> But "undefined" is an adjective meaning "not having a definition".
17:08:30 <J_Arcane> tswett: I actually kinda like the Maybe type for that. Or just Scheme/Racket's use of the empty list for nil. Because it has a practical use.
17:09:35 <tswett> I guess what I don't like is when there's a difference between a variable having a value called "undefined" and the variable *actually not being defined*.
17:09:38 <J_Arcane> But yeah, JS' case it's more the interpreter going 'well, I don't know what to do here' (which happens a lot) and just returning 'undefined' and carrying on. That to me is the behavior of a crazy person.
17:10:07 <tswett> If those are the *same* thing, that's fine. If they're different things, then the guys who created the programming language really need to think about what the word "defined" means.
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18:45:56 <MDude> I would think undefined would make sense as a vaue. If it can be the result of an operation on paper, a comptuer should be able to represent it.
18:46:35 <kallisti> what kind of "undefined" are we talking about?
18:48:22 <tswett> MDude: if you ask me, it can't be the result of an operation on paper.
18:48:55 <tswett> 1/0 isn't an operation whose result is a value called "undefined". It's a sequence of symbols that has the property of being undefined.
18:49:02 <kallisti> for instance, a certain kind of undefined can be the result of a computation which never halts.
18:49:36 <kallisti> "undefined behavior" where the specification or implementation of something doesn't handle a certain case.
18:52:25 <elliott> tswett: that view kinda clashes with denotational semantics
18:52:32 <kallisti> but if you're talking about, say, the value of "undefined" in javascript, you could say that this is "defined" in some sense, since it is a definition representing things that are deterministically without a specific meaning.
18:52:35 <elliott> we say that [[ 1 / 0 ]] = _|_
18:54:13 <tswett> elliott: *nod* Yeah, you're right.
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18:56:24 <elliott> kallisti: what's up. you can't just reappear every N months without telling everyone your life story since
18:57:59 <kallisti> are denotations technically computations though?
18:58:20 <tswett> kallisti: so, how about that operating system we're collaborating on making?
19:02:24 <tswett> Let's use the Linux kernel but write everything else from scratch.
19:03:13 <kallisti> I'm not very interested in starting a project with that kind of scope until I get other things sorted out.
19:03:22 <FireFly> tswett: undefined in JS is more messy than you might think.. there's a well-defined value called "undefined", a global variable "undefined" holding said value, and also the typeof operator sometimes returns the string 'undefined'
19:03:26 <kallisti> like "not being homeless or starving to death"
19:03:46 <kallisti> I don't think tswett ever mentioned JS. That was my contribution. Coincidentally, I've been writing a lot of JS code.
19:04:11 <FireFly> specifically, typeof foo results in the string 'undefined' both if foo is defined and holds the value undefined, and if it is /not defined/
19:04:31 <FireFly> oh, I just read parts of the backlog, might've missed the context
19:05:52 <elliott> how old are you now even kallisti
19:05:53 <FireFly> So in other words, in JS it both means "not defined" and "holds the `undefined` value" (and is the name of a global variable)
19:06:58 <kallisti> yikes? now I feel I should be concerned about something.
19:08:47 <kallisti> it's not too crazy. It just means that the value undefined doesn't actually mean 'an undefined variable'. It just means that undefined variables result in an undefined value, but not the other way around.
19:09:49 <kallisti> I believe you'd use hasOwnProperty to actually determine if a specific name has never been assigned to.
19:10:31 <kallisti> elliott: I think when you hit 20 or so you start feeling old and then as you get closer to 25 you start feeling young again briefly, and then probably old again after that point, but I haven't gotten there yet.
19:10:47 <kallisti> that's just my experience anyway
19:12:01 <kallisti> I shall now confirmation bias this piece of information. Thank you for your input.
19:13:01 <tswett> FireFly: so there's actually a difference between an unassigned variable and a variable containing "undefined"?
19:13:46 <FireFly> Trying to access the former is an error
19:14:48 <kallisti> only if you have 'use strict' enabled
19:15:34 <FireFly> No, I'm pretty sure that's the case either way. As in, if you open a repl and type foo you get a ReferenceError
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19:17:17 <FireFly> What strict mode changes wrt globals is that you need to explicitly declare variables before assigning to them
19:18:11 <kallisti> ah okay. I guess I never use strict mode then.
19:19:35 <kallisti> I wish I had started writing my current node.js project in livescript, actually.
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19:20:47 <kallisti> I don't really feel like rewriting everything in livescript, and only writing SOME of it in livescript seems a little awkward.
19:20:58 <FireFly> What kind of project is it?
19:22:57 <kallisti> millions of nested callbacks becomes second nature at some point, but if I were using livescript I could use "backcalls" to flatten everything.
19:23:20 <kallisti> looks nearly identical to do notation.
19:24:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Xihcute]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41867&oldid=41866 * Ds84182 * (+0) Fix 99 bottles of beer with the new instruction fixes.
19:24:48 <kallisti> oh, huh, this is an IRC channel for esoteric programming languages isn't it?
19:25:52 <elliott> kallisti: remember the good all days when we argued all the time
19:29:23 <kallisti> any interesting new esolangs since I was last here?
19:29:32 <kallisti> or languages in general that I may be unaware of?
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19:35:02 <elliott> you were last here semi-recently
19:36:12 <kallisti> yes but I haven't really been following language design closely for several years.
19:36:38 <elliott> yeah but you said since you were last here :p
19:36:39 <kallisti> so, maybe not exactly when I was last present on the channel
19:36:49 <elliott> we implemented deadfish in even more languages!
19:37:25 <elliott> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish 71 now
19:37:54 <kallisti> deadfish in deadfish. that's all I need.
19:38:43 <kallisti> hm, the perl implementation isn't a one-liner though
19:40:33 <kallisti> "The language defined by the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme"
19:40:52 <b_jonas> kallisti: that's old. they ahve R7RS now I think
19:41:07 <elliott> the interpreter is broken but whatever
19:41:14 <elliott> I mainly did it for the ridiculously full language name
19:41:20 <elliott> kallisti: haha it's just R5RS Scheme
19:41:26 <elliott> the 5 in R5RS is for Revised^5
19:41:39 <elliott> originally it was like, the Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme
19:41:43 <elliott> then the Revised Revised Report
19:41:52 <elliott> then they started using power superscripts pretty quickly
19:41:56 <b_jonas> they call it "Revised^7 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheem"
19:43:24 <kallisti> it's unfortunate that the number of revisions will probably not exceed the threshold beyond which up-arrow notation is reasonable.
19:43:39 <kallisti> or if it does, I won't be alive for it.
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19:46:49 <kallisti> why does Protocol Buffers have such an awful name.
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20:13:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoAPI]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41868&oldid=39468 * Smjg * (+26) wayback
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20:14:52 <elliott> kallisti: are you still in uh. the same physicall ocation you were. god I forget where that even was but it seemed like half the channel lived there
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20:16:54 <kallisti> I live in Georgia (the US state not the nation)
20:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PESOIX]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41869&oldid=30600 * Smjg * (-13) found something on wayback
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21:26:56 <Jafet> Hmm, Orbiter is perfectly happy to let you turn the ISS into a meteorite
21:37:40 <zzo38> Why does the Deadfish article render the last few sections incorrectly for a few seconds?
21:39:03 <zzo38> Which Deadfish implementation is longest? Is it the one for Famicom?
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21:50:38 <zzo38> Or is the Chicken one longer?
21:54:50 <zzo38> The shortest one seems to be AWK, followed by Staq, and then dc.
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22:51:47 <zzo38> Why is COBOL program using the C library for I/O?
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23:17:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41870&oldid=41789 * AndoDaan * (+388) Added Kipple version.
23:22:38 <naturalog> here's a q i've been wondering about today: assume you have an array A of bools. at t=0, A[0]=true and all the rest are false. assume the working memory can contain only one bool (bit), and you have a pointer to A which you can either inc or dec by 1, and it goes back cyclically when out of range. which computations can't this machine do?
23:23:25 <naturalog> its like tape turing machine with redundant state machines
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23:23:45 <elliott> what operations can you do
23:24:05 <naturalog> ah i forgot: you can either read, or set to 0, 1, or to the mem bit
23:25:19 <naturalog> and it begins with its head marked
23:25:30 <elliott> tbh it sounds like you can't do much at all with this
23:25:37 <elliott> it's a very limited state machine
23:25:44 <elliott> it's barely even computation
23:26:07 <elliott> I don't know exactly what class it'd be in, though
23:28:19 <naturalog> sorry, complete squares. 1,4,9,16,25..
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23:29:32 <elliott> okay maybe it's more interesting than I thought
23:31:50 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0488 COMBINING CYRILLIC HUNDRED THOUSANDS SIGN]
23:41:41 <boily> there shouldn't have been a space having had left there...
23:44:00 <boily> sorry, I'm more or less coherent today. I was complaining that a space shouldn't have been left there.
23:44:04 <HackEgo> [U+0488 COMBINING CYRILLIC HUNDRED THOUSANDS SIGN]
23:44:32 <HackEgo> [U+00F8 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH STROKE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0488 COMBINING CYRILLIC HUNDRED THOUSANDS SIGN] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
23:46:02 <boily> I know. and please don't shout too much. I'm finally enjoying a lack of headache.
23:48:50 <boily> sorry, was it a sample of your suave OKAY voice?
23:50:11 <oerjan> i mean i am not enjoying a lack of headache.
23:51:33 <boily> sickness? hangover? alien invasion? meteorite?
23:52:32 <oerjan> most likely no. 3, i think.
23:53:38 <oerjan> although come to think of it, i am coughing a bit as well
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