00:04:30 <naturalog> q2: we have an array of bools with 1 bit memory. we can do all bit operations, 1- and 2-ary, with the current tape's head and the mem bit. now this machine can do 2-cnf and 2-dnf, right?
00:04:42 <naturalog> how would you characterize *everything* it can do?
00:05:02 <naturalog> boily: i hope bold keeps your head fine
00:05:48 <naturalog> this machine obviously cannot do everything. can it do 3cnf?
00:06:34 <boily> naturalog: bold is correct.
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00:24:31 <Lilax> landspeed of a migrating fungot is 78mp/s
00:26:52 * boily mapoles Lilax “no stabbing in the channel!”
00:27:19 * Lilax gasps and dies to death
00:27:43 <boily> if you die, please don't leave hard to wash stains hth
00:29:07 * Lilax sprays blood and calcium oxide on the carpets
00:32:44 <Lilax> channel created Sun Nov 26 2006 1:42:50
00:32:53 <elliott> this place was actually created in 202
00:33:25 <Lilax> just seeing why the channel time is off for the client
00:35:15 * pikhq beats Windows with a large stick
00:36:47 <Lilax> what does +C mean?
00:39:46 <oerjan> naturalog: i think your definition is very vague on this machine's flow control hth
00:40:03 <elliott> it strips ctcps or something I think
00:40:09 <elliott> oerjan: it has none, afaict
00:40:28 <naturalog> it has tape over the array, and head
00:40:39 <naturalog> can more left or right, but cyclically
00:41:06 <Lilax> Reaaaaaaaaallllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy small
00:44:01 <oerjan> naturalog: i don't think you are understanding the question.
00:44:16 <oerjan> i'm not asking what it can do in a single instruction
00:44:32 <oerjan> i'm asking how it decides what instruction to do next
00:45:06 <elliott> oerjan: you just get a list of fixed instructions to execute
00:45:23 <oerjan> hm i guess with a finite array...
00:45:26 <naturalog> like the machine in q1 can create all complete squares indices to be true
00:45:43 <Lilax> lets get together and make a humanoid AI named Glad0s
00:45:52 <oerjan> sounds a bit like those circuit complexity models
00:46:36 <naturalog> i dont know what you speak about. im pretty new on this stuff
00:46:57 <oerjan> hm i wonder if the barrington theorem applies
00:47:18 <oerjan> in which case the answer is: anything, as long as you are allowed a few spare bits
00:47:51 <oerjan> in fact i think that's the case.
00:48:01 <boily> Lilax: not sure it's a good idea.
00:49:08 <oerjan> i guess that's not quite the same.
00:49:22 <oerjan> although i think it's pretty unknown exactly how much that allows.
00:49:41 <oerjan> (e.g. does it contain all of NP)
00:50:21 <oerjan> the thing here is that the length of the program could be _much_ larger than the array itself
00:50:35 <naturalog> how does this depend on p=np? i.e. assume p=np then what? and assume p neq np then what?
00:51:17 <oerjan> naturalog: actually if we assume an extremely large program, i don't think it depends. i think you can calculate any boolean function on the array minus those few spare bits.
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00:51:57 <naturalog> well for some problems you'll run out of mem even if you use the array as mem
00:51:57 <oerjan> (you need enough to encode 5 different states of the machine)
00:53:31 <oerjan> naturalog: no, you actually don't. the barrington theorem works by visiting all cells a _lot_ of times, but it has to remember nothing other than its place in the program and which of the 5 states it's in
00:54:22 <naturalog> ok so if its turing complete, then we can built a turing equivalent machine by simple matrix multiplications
00:54:44 <oerjan> the word "turing complete" does not apply to anything with a finite array as input.
00:54:48 <naturalog> i.e. vector is the state, we mul it by a matrix on each step, very simple one
00:55:27 <naturalog> yes ofc turing completeness i.e. equivalent to some finite turing machine of order of magnitude of this machines
00:55:36 <Lilax> you kiddos are so smart
00:56:08 <oerjan> a given program only has time to visit finitely many cells, so if you want to calculate anything for arbitrary large arrays, you need to have the program dependent on the size of the array
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00:56:48 <oerjan> and then the actual turing-completeness question gets passed on to whatever you use to prepare the program
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00:57:34 <naturalog> ok ic i'll try to understand barrington theorem welel
00:57:38 <oerjan> (this is exactly how circuit complexity tends to work, except if you are careful with balancing the powers)
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01:02:42 <boily> elliott: heh. I didn't know that mimics in 0.15 changed character when you hit them.
01:02:51 <oerjan> btw the NC(1) restriction is if the program has polynomial size in the array size, i think
01:02:51 <boily> oerjan: it's Quake hth.
01:03:13 <oerjan> oh and P = NP need not apply, because it's not even known if NC(1) contains P
01:03:46 <naturalog> think we have a key-value hashtable storage. our machine can query for key and retrieve a value from the storage. it cannot query by value. and it can store in memory 1 key, 1 value, 1 auxiliary var. all same length
01:04:03 <oerjan> but if the program has unlimited size then things get simpler.
01:05:03 <oerjan> sounds like a pointer machine
01:05:05 <naturalog> it begins with a single key in the memory
01:06:54 <naturalog> i thought about it while wondering what computation can a dht network do with dht only
01:07:06 <naturalog> without syncronization ofc, otherwise its noninteresting
01:09:29 <naturalog> ofc they can be sync with e.g. blockchain algo, but its not purely mathematicaly true. crypto is practical science at this case
01:10:12 <naturalog> with blockchain its kinda nondeterministic machine
01:12:49 <naturalog> btw on #zennet we sometimes have discussions about such problems, sometimes we like going deep on p=np and such
01:16:07 * oerjan thinks he may actually be sick
01:16:45 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Feb 9 02:16:44 2015
01:17:37 <boily> oerjan: go rest! you're being unreasonable!
01:17:51 <boily> what's your address, so I can send you a can of chicken soup?
01:18:13 <oerjan> i think you are somehow assuming i actually woke _up_ at a reasonable time tdnh
01:18:49 <oerjan> i might have to go rest anyway, though.
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01:19:08 <oerjan> right now, however, i am eating.
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01:21:06 <Lilax> oerjan is in the future
01:21:12 <Lilax> its the 8th for me
01:21:21 <Sgeo> How do I tell between a broken LCD cable and just it not being seated properly, if I only want to open computer once to fix it
01:22:57 <Lilax> actually let me see something :00
01:23:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
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01:24:01 <lambdabot> Local time for lifthrasiir is Mon Feb 9 10:23:58 2015
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01:27:29 <lifthrasiir> it won't work if your client doesn't support CTCP TIME
01:28:26 <boily> I'm guessing the Lilaxtime is either 5:28pm or 8:28pm.
01:31:16 <boily> your watch/clock/radio is running fast.
01:31:35 <Lilax> Uses sattalite time
01:31:43 <Lilax> can't spell sattalite
01:31:47 <oerjan> it was definitely :28 when i saw boily's message
01:32:23 <oerjan> in that case your clock is off by 2 minutes or so
01:35:40 <oerjan> if it's window's then there's a menu choice to ask it to contact a time server, if it's for some reason not doing that already
01:36:32 <Lilax> http://okuria.co.vu/post/110494876443/delusionalkieren-happy-valentines-day
01:36:54 <Lilax> since I'm poor and unreliable
01:37:00 <oerjan> you'd think a phone would know what time it is
01:37:39 * Lilax uses the brick to irc
01:38:36 <zzo38> Once you receive a telephone call, if you have call display then a phone should know what time it is, at least, even if it doesn't ordinarily know.
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01:40:07 <Lilax> I wouldn't even bother
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02:00:36 <Sgeo> If tilting my monitor changes how broken or not the display is, is it likely a broken LCD cable, loose LCD cable, or something else?
02:03:47 <kallisti> Sgeo: are you getting artifacts?
02:04:05 <Sgeo> I'm getting weird bands of color, usually blue
02:04:14 <Sgeo> That seem to appear when a specific color is shown on my monitor
02:04:50 <Sgeo> I use click2play for plugins, for example, and often the grey of that will be a flickering blue
02:05:28 <Sgeo> It depends on the tilt of my monitor, if I tilt it back far enough, no problem
02:06:33 <kallisti> sounds like a problem with the video cable
02:06:36 <boily> single channel weirdness sounds like an unseated connector, or the cable got pinched somewhere.
02:07:01 <Sgeo> boily: sometimes it's other colors
02:07:22 <Sgeo> kallisti: more accurately, the current tilt affects it. If I move it into one position, the effect can be there even when I stop moving it
02:07:50 <Sgeo> kallisti: is it likely to be the type of problem I'd need to replace the cable itself to fix, or just make it tighter or something
02:08:54 <kallisti> doesn't sound like a problem with the LCD, since that would usually be permanent artifacts. dead pixels and such.
02:10:03 <kallisti> Sgeo: is it just the negative of the original image?
02:14:03 <kallisti> try hooking up an external monitor if you have one
02:14:21 <kallisti> and see if it has the same problem.
02:17:28 <Sgeo> Don't have one at home
02:17:38 <Sgeo> Do have one at work, don't think taking personal computer there good idea
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03:09:19 <zzo38> Do you like to play a mahjong game?
03:11:58 <coppro> I've recently learned the rules to riichi
03:12:50 <Lilax> I once made a program that stores your copies of text and links in the scroll and right click of a mouse
03:13:03 <Lilax> Its broken now since firefox updated
03:13:06 <zzo38> I am just curious. Have you ever seen or heard of Washizu mahjong (a variant involving teams and tiles made of glass and a few other things)?
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03:13:37 <zzo38> Also I am writing the rules of a Magic: the Gathering variant for combining it with mahjong.
03:15:17 <zzo38> People have tried before combining Magic: the Gathering with other games such as Monopoly and chess.
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03:20:05 <coppro> zzo38: I have heard of it, yes
03:23:29 <zzo38> Washizu mahjong is invented by Fukumoto and is played in Akagi manga.
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03:27:02 <zzo38> It was invented in the manga at first but now you can actually buy Washizu mahjong tiles (I have a box of them).
03:30:32 <coppro> they were sold by a company in vancouver
03:30:37 <coppro> afaik they went out of business though
03:32:53 <zzo38> You can buy Washizu tiles from Japan; I imported it from Japan, and the company that imported it for me is still in business.
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03:35:55 <zzo38> I have no link it is a physical store
03:49:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wct]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41871&oldid=41861 * Oerjan * (+47) The date is not optional
03:53:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Prelude]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41872&oldid=41851 * Oerjan * (-36) /* External resources */ Template
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04:00:31 * oerjan is a very disturbed doggie
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04:13:05 <zzo38> Now I made up the file in my computer that I wrote how to play Magic: the Gathering with mahjong combined together.
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06:17:13 <Sgeo> People who have heard me sing: Do I really sound feminine enough that I would be called "ma'am" by everyone who hears me on the phone?
06:27:43 <zzo38> I don't know because I didn't hear you sing, and even if I did I probably wouldn't know that answer anyways.
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07:01:09 <zzo38> Do you have any *indexed* Latin-suited tarot decks?
07:06:11 <zzo38> I also don't like the Fool/Excuse labeled as zero; while I understand why this is (someone told me why, it is because the trumps represent a journey and the fool is the beginning of the journey), but its value is never zero (it is either the highest trump, or it has another purpose). I would like to leave off the index of that card and only that one.
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07:36:57 <b_jonas> "Magic: the Gathering with mahjong combined together" heh
07:37:45 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mahjong.var This is the rules I wrote for this game
07:37:54 <zzo38> Oops sorry that is the wrong URL
07:38:05 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/mahjong.var
07:40:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you like this?
07:40:48 <b_jonas> I don't know, I'm not a mahjong player, so I probably won't appreciate it
07:41:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to play mahjong at all?
07:41:32 <b_jonas> I don't know all the scoring
07:42:25 <zzo38> Then you can learn.
07:47:15 <zzo38> Is there anything like Hackage/CTAN/CPAN/whatever but for SQLite?
07:47:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I dunno, but you can abuse CPAN to advertise any software if you just put a half-assed perl interface to it.
07:49:28 <zzo38> Advertising the software where it doesn't belong is not the point though
07:51:25 <b_jonas> "Whichever player is the active player in Magic: the Gathering is east
07:51:37 <b_jonas> - is this all the time, or only at the start of the game?
07:52:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: All the time.
07:57:07 <b_jonas> so you deal mahjong in each M:tG turn?
07:57:22 <b_jonas> that seems like it's a much slower game than M:tG then
07:57:29 <zzo38> Yes. It would slow down the game.
07:57:32 <b_jonas> but yes, it might make sense
07:58:03 <b_jonas> people invent so many hybrid sports like chess-boxing and kayak polo
08:00:14 <zzo38> I even read once someone they play chess several times, winning at chess is worth a certain value in poker chips; afterward you play poker, but instead of starting an equal number of chips you have whatever chips you won from the chess game, so whoever is better at chess game starts with an advantage in the poker game.
08:00:42 <zzo38> The games don't interfere with each other much in this case though, but it is one thing to do if it is what you like to do.
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08:01:52 <b_jonas> sure, the "mahjong tiles are permanents" thing is scary
08:02:19 <b_jonas> it makes them interact a lot
08:04:10 <int-e> zzo38: so is this for a four player version of MtG?
08:04:51 <zzo38> int-e: Yes you need to play four players
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08:19:10 <zzo38> Once on Monty Python they asked "Which great opponent of Cartesian dualism resists the reduction of psychological phenomena to a physical state and insists there is no point of contact between the extended and the unextended?" What does "there is no point of contact between the extended and the unextended" mean here?
08:19:56 <b_jonas> does it have to mean somethign?
08:20:21 <zzo38> I don't know; I expected it to mean something.
08:20:44 <b_jonas> dunno, some philosophers or something might know what it means
08:21:27 <zzo38> It seems to be legitimate as Henri Bergson is mentioned and looking at Wikipedia, he is actually a philosopher.
08:21:38 <b_jonas> (unless you want a generalized zygomorphism)
08:22:02 <zzo38> The stuff in Wikipedia though is just as confusing.
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09:04:23 <zzo38> If there isn't the one for SQLite then maybe I have to learn how to invent such thing.
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11:58:30 <Jafet> http://arcsynthesis.org looks like it got sprayed by a drive-by
12:00:11 <Jafet> Maybe I should be more careful when using the gltut example code
12:06:28 <boily> Jafet: http://www.carpathos.com/ ?
12:06:52 <boily> http://treasurevalleytax.com/ ???
12:07:08 <boily> what in fungot is that?
12:07:46 <Jafet> http://www.truckbacker.com/ brings a new meaning to drive-by backdoors
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12:41:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41873&oldid=41589 * 193.69.211.10 * (+2) /* External resources */
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13:40:06 <naturalog> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309
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13:53:53 <Jafet> That is a very fractured ceramic container
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14:14:25 <Zefpher> Ok ill just leave our nick like this
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14:30:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Al Dente]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41874&oldid=41793 * Doesthiswork * (+391) nitpicking
14:34:52 <quintopia> why has no one been triggering pbflist for me :/
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14:35:56 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
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15:02:08 <mroman> can neural networks be trained to do calculations?
15:02:47 <quintopia> they can be wired into logic circuits
15:03:13 <quintopia> no training required...just create the network anually
15:03:56 <naturalog> mroman: cf universal approximation theorem
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17:13:58 <mroman> Wasn't there some site that let's you enable comment functionality in static webpages
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17:41:59 <fizzie> There was also at least one thing where you can scribble over arbitrary websites, and other people registered on the service can see those scribblings.
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17:44:26 <kallisti> nice, I've always wanted to enhance my web surfing experience with crudely drawn dicks.
17:57:39 <zzo38> I have invented a ASCII based file format for deck lists for Magic: the Gathering and can be used with other card games too. It is designed to be: * Easy to read it manually. * Easy to write it manually. * Easy to program the computer to parse it (ignoring things it doesn't need to understand).
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18:38:55 <zzo38> Is it your opinion that SQLite virtual table should allow the virtual table implementation to read the LIMIT and OFFSET clauses of a query in case that virtual table is accessing data over the internet it would help to have these things?
18:39:19 <zzo38> (In order to avoid wasting bandwidth by accessing all of the data even if it isn't used)
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19:33:13 <zzo38> Now I have made up a few scheme cards for Magic: the Gathering, which are called "Ice Scheme", "The Ultimate Sacrifice", and "You Have To Study Too Much".
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20:39:33 <mroman> PLEASE ACCEPT MY STANDARD FONT SIZE SETTINGS YOU FUCKING MORON
20:42:18 <mroman> I set default font size to 12pt
20:42:26 <mroman> but if a website does not specify any font size
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21:33:25 <mitchs> int-e, in case you didn't notice, henkma struck back on sin curve
21:49:05 <mroman> this february in your local cinema :(
21:49:16 <mroman> (also in your local cinema of course)
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22:08:25 <mitchs> good movies this month
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22:20:02 <mroman> do you have some food to spare?
22:20:20 <Taneb> If you're in York, want half a pizza?
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22:22:19 <mroman> Wasn't it time for an #esoteric meet-up?
22:22:50 <Taneb> We're all quite geographically disparate
22:23:01 <Taneb> Unless it's in like Turku or the West Midlands
22:23:54 <mroman> we just have to make it an educational conference
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22:24:27 <mroman> so I can write it off as educational expences
22:24:44 <mroman> then my employer might pay for the trip ;)
22:25:07 <Taneb> Unfortunately I am not in that situation
22:25:26 <mroman> I guess that could work as well
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23:57:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41875&oldid=32008 * 70.36.190.3 * (-36) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Fix bug by removing P.n, which referred to the nonexistent variable s, resulting in returning from P.n with 3 junk values pushed onto the stack when running the 0.12 interpreter.
23:59:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41876&oldid=41875 * 70.36.190.3 * (+8) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Formatting