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00:12:42 <Taneb> Today- well, yesterday- I made some paper boats then went to the cinema
00:15:41 <Taneb> I was making the best out of a printing error
00:16:57 <Taneb> Which led me to have about 30 sheets of paper with 4 black squares on each side
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00:38:12 <Taneb> I was trying to print of some slides, 4 per page
00:38:19 <Taneb> So I guess 8 per sheet
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01:20:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 130100Z 27012KT 8SM -SN SCT035 OVC060 M12/M16 A2989 RMK SC3SC5 SLP123
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01:39:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 130120Z 13008KT CAVOK M04/M06 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 14008KT
01:42:24 <boily> hellørjan. still enjoying tropical weather?
01:42:39 <lambdabot> shachaf said 23h 45m 7s ago: not much of a hello when you quit within a few seconds!
01:43:07 <boily> @tell shachaf sorry. I had to disappear toward a pre-work shower.
01:44:14 <oerjan> still enjoying the flu, possibly
01:45:07 <boily> oh. the sickness disproved?
01:45:22 <boily> (what's the opposite of improved? I'm seriously drawing a blank here...)
01:45:51 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure disproved means something completely different
01:46:43 <boily> yes, but I had a long day, and my mental hamster is sprawled besides its wheel, lightly twitching.
01:47:05 <oerjan> is it epileptic spasms
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01:47:28 <boily> perhaps. I'm drinking diet coke.
01:48:00 * oerjan is drinking orange juice, might change to coke zero later
01:49:20 <oerjan> i suppose not having nausea is good
01:49:44 * dulla gets oerjan a Coke Orange
01:49:53 <dulla> Welcome to Americlap
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01:50:24 <oerjan> we don't generally mix coke and orange in norway afaik
01:50:28 * boily glares at dulla “no corrupting Scandinavians!”
01:50:52 <dulla> Hey, you can put your own god damn oj in your own god damn cocaine cola
01:51:06 <oerjan> unless you mean coke in the "americans have a different word for fizzy drinks dependent on region and time of day" sense
01:51:37 <oerjan> i believe i've read there's no trace of cocaine in coke since the 1930s or thereabouts
01:51:46 <dulla> it's become the coca cola company versus pepsi co
01:51:58 <dulla> you have root beer, or dr pepper
01:52:27 <dulla> regardless, the automated drink machines are really weird, they allow you to make your own cola flavors
01:52:38 <dulla> > orange vanilla coke
01:52:40 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘range’ (imported from Data.Ix)Not in scope: ‘vanilla’Not ...
01:54:11 <oerjan> i do not believe lambdabot yet has a vending machine attached
01:54:50 <dulla> Well, now I have a goal
01:55:31 <oerjan> obviously what we truly want is launchMissiles :: IO ()
01:59:13 <boily> I'd be more worried about a launchMissiles :: ().
01:59:33 <dulla> This is going to be the start of a strategy game, oerjan
01:59:39 <dulla> Are you realy willing?
02:00:16 <oerjan> the answer to that should be obvious to anyone who has been here in the channel for a while
02:00:25 <oerjan> ("heck no, far too much work")
02:00:56 <oerjan> boily: no, that would be unsafeLaunchMissiles, which you have to construct yourself hth
02:01:41 <oerjan> i think intuitively the type should be Void rather than ()
02:01:50 <oerjan> because, there won't be anything left to return.
02:03:05 <dulla> I would not be opposed to a proc chance of the missiles simply exploding on you for being so unsafe
02:03:26 <boily> dulla: those are missiles we are talking about. missiles are reliable.
02:04:41 <dulla> Not when they are from kazahkstan
02:05:02 <dulla> or is uzbekistan more apropos
02:09:48 <Taneb> Missiles of this size, apocalypstrophestan
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03:14:26 <oren> That is a problem with the definition of "turing complete", not with C, tswett...
03:15:12 <oren> That is, no real computer can ever be "turing complete", thus some algorithms that theoretically "work" don't actually
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03:17:01 <oren> elliott, are there models of computability that take the limits of physics into account?
03:19:14 <nys> linear bounded automaton with tape fixed to 10^90 bits
03:20:16 <oren> nys: I think there are more restrictions than that. Consider the maximum speed of information propagation, and the energy supply, for example.
03:21:32 <oren> Personally, I think there is in theory a tradeoff between the size of memory and the speed of the computer.
03:21:40 <nys> oren: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0110141
03:24:16 <oren> nys: cool. So there will never, even in theory, be a need for pointers longer than 90 bits. We can saefly assume that
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04:35:25 <dulla> this is why we have a hierarchical cache structure, and coproccessing, oren
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04:59:53 <HackEgo> olist 975: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
05:00:30 <Sgeo> I saw it but forgot to olist
05:01:36 <oerjan> order of the stick announcements
05:01:56 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
05:02:18 <oerjan> HackEgo: you're, like, slow, tdnh
05:02:31 <oerjan> no, he sent me a lambdabot message
05:02:45 <Sketra> I've heard of lambdabot
05:02:57 <lambdabot> Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
05:03:29 <Sketra> That makes Not a lick o' sense
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05:04:39 <oerjan> nixon often didn't hth
05:05:27 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
05:05:32 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s pinky brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
05:05:45 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but me and Pippi Longstocking -- I mean, what would the children look like?
05:06:13 <lambdabot> Vote for ME -- I'm well-tapered, half-cocked, ill-conceived and TAX-DEFERRED!
05:06:32 <Sketra> Vile creature of the internet begone from this sacred land of code and drama
05:07:10 <Sketra> Sorry, I spout often words of wimsical use
05:07:36 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite kind
05:09:49 <Sketra> By the hymen of Olivia newton John that is a big bot lib for lambdabot
05:11:16 <oerjan> what do you expect of a bot more than a decade old
05:13:13 <Sketra> Who are you btw & what do you do for program wise
05:13:41 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.y’, defined at L.hs:153:16
05:13:52 <Sketra> I haven't haskelled in years
05:13:54 <dulla> you need an input set, Sketra
05:14:12 <Sketra> Its ok I gave up in fifth grade
05:14:14 <oerjan> > is just an abbreviation for @run it doesn't have access to the other commands
05:14:16 <lambdabot> ‘id’ (imported from Data.Function),
05:14:18 <dulla> > [y|y <- "aeiou"]
05:14:49 <Sketra> Remember ten years from now oerjan you make lambdabot into an artificial intelligance
05:18:36 <Sketra> is it bad if I had a bot use lambdabot to do nefarious deeds
05:19:06 <elliott> that's pretty traditional actually >_>
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05:19:36 <Sketra> Doesn't have a good security system?
05:20:53 <elliott> its security system is really terrible
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05:21:07 <oerjan> @@ @run text @show @nixon
05:21:08 <lambdabot> I brought myself down. I impeached myself by resigning.
05:21:10 <elliott> there are some very bad exploits that I doubt got fixed that I'm not going to tell anyone about
05:21:21 <elliott> @@ @ run text . reverse $ @show @nixon
05:21:21 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: ""
05:21:24 <elliott> @@ @run text . reverse $ @show @nixon
05:21:25 <lambdabot> .era yeht ,ti ecaf s'tel ,woN .seert eht fo tuo tsuj era ,yllacisab , meht ...
05:22:24 <Sketra> them basically are just out of the trees Now lets face they are
05:22:40 <oerjan> Sketra: lambdabot only got a proper sandbox last month after we found that security bug
05:23:20 <oerjan> before that it tried to trust haskell's type system
05:24:17 <oerjan> Sketra: um you don't know what sandbox means for a bot?
05:24:36 <oerjan> it means putting it in a more secure environment
05:25:41 <Sketra> yeah well you may have could said that
05:26:04 <Sketra> My friend did that to our currency bot
05:29:21 <oerjan> you're sounding seriously crazy today.
05:30:27 <Sketra> I'm just asking a question
05:30:45 <oerjan> i'm a norwegian who does pretty much nothing.
05:30:51 <Sketra> I wish to know what you've done in your life As a programming
05:31:15 <Sketra> How come Germany took over Norway but Sweden?!
05:32:04 <oerjan> sweden didn't have a long atlantic coastline or a stupid policy of downsizing the military (not sure about the latter)
05:34:17 <Sketra> Geometery confuses me oerjan
05:36:01 <oerjan> you just have to look at it from the right angle
05:37:18 <oerjan> nordics are people living in northern europe. some of their ancestors were vikings.
05:37:26 <Sketra> ouo" I heard from a friend that..
05:38:03 <oerjan> you're Eolus. you should have noticed by now.
05:38:11 <Sketra> Ofc in some fields you may not be as smart
05:38:42 <oerjan> i don't actually believe that but whatever.
05:39:15 <oerjan> that you're not the exact same person as Eolus.
05:40:55 <Sketra> Second split of third tri quarter of the Median system Sketra Split from Zetsu Female alter Mental age 17
05:41:55 <Sketra> Should I have everyone introduce themselves like that? I assume it would be easier
05:42:56 <oerjan> we aren't going to distinguish you into personae anyhow.
05:42:58 <Sketra> 4000 newtons psi to shatter bones
05:43:45 <Sketra> Its ok just call us by the nick that is displayed and you should be spared any type of discontent and murderous anger from sprouting
05:44:28 <Sketra> Like int-e always calling us By lilax
05:45:31 <Sketra> you never do that anyways
05:45:41 <Sketra> You are good friend I guess
05:46:23 <Sketra> Probably would forgive since you only did it once
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05:46:58 <Sketra> Its just hhhh titles matter cuz ugh idk we just hate being called by eachothers names
05:47:11 <Sketra> Albiet confusing just call us by our nicks
05:48:07 <oerjan> i'll do that, but only because i'd be doing that anyway. if you start making me want to follow rules i consider pointless, i might run out of patience myself.
05:48:39 <oerjan> *start making me follow
05:48:47 <Sketra> well no oerjan you don't have to follow the rules you are nice and funny
05:49:15 <Sketra> Also you remind of us our grandpa so its ok
05:49:15 <oerjan> ...that kind of talk doesn't help, either.
05:50:12 <Sketra> As long as you don't say anything rash in anger lol Cuz lots of us are emotionally unstable and you might never hear from me again or us for that matter
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05:51:34 <oren> HaskellCEO: TOO MUCH! Just found out that these dickwads belong to some Christian denomination known as the Alonzo Church of God in Christ or some shit.
05:52:24 <oren> It's a joke about the famous mathematician Alonzo Church
05:52:57 <oren> what's RGB for pink?
05:55:10 <oerjan> (/usr/share/X11/rgb.txt)
05:56:00 <oerjan> Sketra: Red Green Blue
05:56:20 <Sketra> I'm colour blind to Blue and Green
05:56:26 <oerjan> color numbers for a monitor
05:56:58 <oerjan> probably somewhat randomly assigned
05:57:04 <Sketra> Thas cool I haven't coded since 10th grade
05:57:28 <oren> I'm gonna go with "deep pink" 255 20 147, for the color of bad links, and "Purple" 160 32 240 for the good links
05:57:50 <Sketra> Oh I see what you are doing
05:58:18 <oerjan> this all probably depends on monitor calibration and stuff, something i only know the vaguest part about
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05:58:44 <oren> Sketra: writing a primitive hypertext browser for my game
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06:13:44 <oerjan> hm iirc today's freefall seems to miss the direct order the mayor's assistant gave...
06:16:20 <oerjan> http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2200/fc02155.htm
07:28:27 <J_Arcane> http://www.noulakaz.net/weblog/2007/03/18/a-regular-expression-to-check-for-prime-numbers/
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07:44:55 <J_Arcane> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.monohaskell.com&oq=cache%3Awww.monohaskell.com&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.1240j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
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07:54:43 -!- int-e has set topic: What is the land-speed velocity of a migrating fungot? | The many faces of Lilax | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
07:57:55 <int-e> Oh, early GG comic today.
08:03:30 <int-e> Ah I guess collateral damage is no fun if you're it. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-02-13
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08:15:44 <oren> woohoo it't working
08:23:41 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/8upxjp4rz/
08:27:41 <oren> See, it detected that the "element" link's file exists and made that link blue
08:30:29 <oren> Now to reinvent web forms
08:33:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttml]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41901&oldid=41860 * Orenwatson * (+24) update spec to include hyperlinks
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08:53:00 -!- elliott has set topic: What is the land-speed velocity of a migrating fungot? | ZFC is a ChuChu rocket. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:53:15 <elliott> int-e: can you stop being a dick to 16 year olds, it's getting really old
08:55:35 <elliott> it's the most ridiculous feud in this place since whenever I cared enough to feud with people
09:09:18 <elliott> oren: do you pick a new terminal font for every sreenshot
09:09:26 <elliott> that one is actually cute though
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09:26:29 <oren> elliott: well, not every screenshot, but I do acquire new terminal fonts every week or so
09:26:56 <int-e> elliott: He strokes (pets? pats?) me the wrong way, it's hard not to bite.
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10:23:47 <J_Arcane> Wife made me new jewelry: https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/566173919770869760
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12:16:02 <mroman> where can you find law texts of us laws?
12:16:14 <mroman> apparentely some cities have some weird laws
12:16:23 <mroman> but nobody seems to have an actual source
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12:18:06 <Jafet> The libraries of those cities, perhaps.
12:18:17 <J_Arcane> So weird question: does immutability simplify the prospect of building a compiler for a dynamically typed language?
12:19:10 <Jafet> Well, you no longer need to convert the program to SSA.
12:23:14 <Jafet> (Compilers for imperative languages like gcc already use immutable IRs, so the passes after that wouldn't really change.)
12:25:49 <tswett> So I'm trying to figure out what kind of hypercomputer you'd need to do the Henkin construction.
12:26:56 <tswett> Define a level-1 hypercomputer as a Turing machine attached to a halting oracle for Turing machines.
12:27:11 <J_Arcane> Jafet: Yeah, that was my thought; the risk of a name changing in type gets smaller if it can't change (local override notwithstanding, and potentially workaroundable). Polymorphic functions seem like they could still be stickier, but maybe not so much?
12:27:22 <mroman> Jafet: so... no online :(
12:27:39 <J_Arcane> I should really do SICP, and look into the source code of Bones.
12:28:45 <tswett> So our L1H starts with a consistent theory, such as ZFC (assuming ZFC is consistent). It then enumerates every statement in the language; whenever it gets to a statement consistent with the theory so far, it adds it to the theory.
12:29:00 <tswett> It can check if a statement is consistent with the theory or not by seeing if a Turing machine halts.
12:30:07 <tswett> Now, the way I just said it, stage 1 will go on forever, meaning we'll never start on stage 2. Aye?
12:30:14 <Jafet> There are a hundred counties in Kansas, which is probably about as regressive as america gets, and each of them can enact strange ordinances. I don't think there's a good chance you will find them all online (especially any recently-passed ones).
12:31:02 <Jafet> State-wide laws should be available though (google suggests http://www.usa.gov/Topics/Reference-Shelf/Laws.shtml)
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12:32:59 <Jafet> I could be wrong... https://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=14166
12:33:17 <tswett> Anyhoo, stage 2 begins by adding a constant to the language for every "there exists" statement we added in stage 1.
12:33:37 <tswett> Then we add a statement saying that the constant is an example of the "there exists" statement.
12:34:02 <tswett> Then we do the same thing we did in stage 1, enumerating all the statements and adding the consistent ones.
12:34:37 <tswett> But now how do you check if a statement is consistent with all the previously added statements?
12:34:39 <Jafet> J_Arcane: in a unityped language, all functions (or perhaps no functions?) can essentially be polymorphic
12:35:43 <Jafet> Anyway, whether "local variables" (if your language has them) are immutable is mostly immaterial because of SSA transform.
12:35:45 <J_Arcane> Jafet: Hmm. That makes me think of the Write Yourself a Scheme implementation; where there's a union type of 'LispValue' that can be either of number, symbol, etc.
12:36:14 <Jafet> If your compiler goes to the trouble of SSA transform for performance, that is
12:38:47 <tswett> I think that involves checking if an L1H halts, meaning you need an L2H. And stage 3 will require an L3H, and so on.
12:39:43 <J_Arcane> "In functional language compilers, such as those for Scheme, ML and Haskell, continuation-passing style (CPS) is generally used where one might expect to find SSA in a compiler for Fortran or C. SSA is formally equivalent to a well-behaved subset of CPS (excluding non-local control flow, which does not occur when CPS is used as intermediate representation), so optimizations and transformations for
12:39:45 <J_Arcane> mulated in terms of one immediately apply to the other." Hm.
12:40:10 <tswett> After you've done all the infinitely many stages, your model is just the set of all constants.
12:40:14 <tswett> Great discussion, everyone.
12:41:20 <Jafet> Is that a countable model?
12:54:11 <Jafet> Why do you need an oracle for that construction, though
12:54:29 <Jafet> Just test all statements in parallel in stage 1, and accumulate the ones proven to be consistent
12:54:45 <Jafet> When you find any existentially quantified ones, thread them through stage 2, etc.
12:56:25 <Jafet> This will eventually give you every (finitely provably) consistent finite statement
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15:58:37 <dulla> Jafet J_Arcane What is SSA if it's a "well-behaved" CPS?
15:59:59 <dulla> Also what is an oracle?
16:00:02 <elliott> is anyone here capable of getting paywalled papers and doesn't have the morals to prevent sharing it afterwards
16:00:18 <elliott> yes, thanks ais523, I thought of you too
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16:14:07 <oren> UofT library has a lot
16:14:31 <elliott> uh I just mean like online ACM paywall kinda things
16:14:34 <elliott> unless you mean a digital library
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16:17:10 <Jafet> Morals? Perhaps "legals" is a better term.
16:17:40 <Jafet> Hmm, this spell checker agrees
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16:18:27 <elliott> I meant more "doesn't have a moral system s.t. ..."
16:19:31 <oren> Chaotic Good FTW
16:19:50 <elliott> it's "Natural Deduction and Weak Normalization for Full Linear Logic", anyway.
16:20:29 <elliott> http://jigpal.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/6/601.abstract
16:21:58 <Taneb> elliott, I find often googling the title works
16:23:42 <Taneb> Are there any interesting concurrency esolangs?
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16:25:48 * elliott waits anxiously in the get-away car
16:29:47 <Jafet> How would you rate π-calculus as 1) interesting 2) esolang
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16:36:18 <Taneb> I am not familiar with it, Jafet
16:36:58 * dulla brings elliott to the combination sex dungeon and creamery
16:37:57 <elliott> um... what kind of cream are we talking here
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16:40:10 <Jafet> A number of researchers are, but it's fairly safe to rate them as esoteric
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16:43:20 <Jafet> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ziim looks interesting
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19:15:25 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in herpes
19:15:26 <lambdabot> [1,1,3,5,9,15,25,41,67,109,177,287,465,753,1219,1973,3193,5167,8361,13529,21...
19:15:44 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in take 8 herpes
19:16:40 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in intersperse ' ' . (take 8) $ herpes
19:16:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
19:17:01 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in intersperse ' ' . map show . (take 8) $ herpes
19:17:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’ with ‘GHC.Types.Char’
19:17:03 <lambdabot> Expected type: a0 -> GHC.Types.Char
19:17:03 <lambdabot> Actual type: a0 -> GHC.Base.String
19:17:16 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in intersperse " " . map show . (take 8) $ herpes
19:17:17 <lambdabot> ["1"," ","1"," ","3"," ","5"," ","9"," ","15"," ","25"," ","41"]
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19:17:27 <dulla> > let herpes = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a + b + 1) herpes (tail herpes) in unwords . intersperse " " . map show . (take 8) $ herpes
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19:24:26 <int-e> quintopia: of course they do. it's just 2*F_n - 1 [with n counting from 1]
19:25:34 <int-e> (uhm and using F_n to denote Fibonacci numbers)
19:26:32 <dulla> quintopia they are leonardo numbers
19:26:48 <dulla> they can be described in terms of that, afaik
19:27:30 <dulla> besides, you can compile it yourself on compile online, quintopia
19:29:29 <dulla> also it's L(n)=2F(n+1)-1, /wikipedia int-e
19:31:05 <dulla> J_Arcane what is an orcale in that talk you have about SSA and CPS?
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19:33:28 <quintopia> i figured it would but wasnt sure if the +1 would throw it off somehow
19:33:49 <J_Arcane> Nice. Rust 1.0 by May, and beta end of next month.
19:33:55 <oerjan> did you know fibonacci's first name is actually leonardo, confusing that
19:34:10 <quintopia> how do you prove the ratio approaches phi in the limit
19:34:21 <int-e> dulla: so what. the code doesn't really indicate whether the first index is 0 or 1.
19:35:15 <dulla> You can have a zero in it, but to reuse the lazy list construction of the fibb numbers, I had to start at 1:1
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19:35:55 <dulla> by the looks of it L(0)=1
19:36:31 <dulla> er, Oracle* J_Arcane
19:37:06 <J_Arcane> Dunno what you mean. There were a couple convos going at once though, perhaps there's some confusion there?
19:38:15 <oerjan> quintopia: you can absorb the +1 into the terms instead.
19:38:34 <dulla> Um, something about hypercomputers, and oracles resolving or optimising SSA's or halting problems
19:39:11 <oerjan> (a + b + 1) + 1 = (a + 1) + (b + 1)
19:40:04 <oerjan> and then you have the usual fibonacci recursion
19:41:15 <J_Arcane> dulla: ahh, yeah, no someone was working on a proof of ... something. I was just talking about immutability and compiling.
19:41:23 <oerjan> basically, take your sequence fulfilling a_n = a_(n-1) + a_(n-2) + 1 and define b_n = a_n + 1
19:42:58 <oerjan> dulla: an oracle is an extra instruction you add to your turing machine / whatever which does something arbitrary you decide on.
19:43:16 <oerjan> in this case, testing whether an ordinary turing machine halts
19:43:16 <dulla> So more or less external or side influence
19:43:42 <oerjan> the thing is, a lot of the theory works the same if you add an oracle to things
19:43:50 <dulla> So Buterin wasn't pulling Oracle out his ass when talking about news tickers
19:44:16 <oerjan> just, instead of not being able to decide halting problem for ordinary TMs, you're now unable to decide it for a TM with your oracle
19:45:57 <zzo38> I also thought of adding a oracle operation into a sequent calculus, where |- Oracle X is an axiom if and only if |- X is not a theorem of the system (even if it cannot be proven that it isn't a theorem).
19:45:59 <dulla> So you can exit a loop?
19:47:21 <oerjan> well you can detect an infinite loop
19:47:45 <int-e> dulla: Well, the oracles are often hypothetical. The one that solves the halting problem cannot, as far as we know, exist. (It would require computing power that goes beyond Turing machines, which goes against the Church-Turing thesis)
19:48:49 <oerjan> see e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Banana_Scheme which is an esolang applying this to scheme
19:49:21 <int-e> (Not all oracles are hypothetical. It's interesting to think of polynomial time algorithms that can query oracles that solve (at least conjecturally) harder problems like satisfiability of boolean formulas)
19:49:52 <int-e> (just as an example)
19:50:04 <oerjan> a big part of why the P = NP problem is so hard is that the answer to it can change if you add an oracle.
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19:50:38 <oerjan> which means that many of the easy methods for proving complexity results simply cannot work for it
19:51:17 <int-e> zzo38: is that oracle circular?
19:51:29 <zzo38> int-e: How does that mean?
19:52:17 <int-e> zzo38: does the system in "not a theorem of the system" refer to the system with those axioms?
19:52:26 <int-e> zzo38: (produced by the oracle)
19:52:56 <zzo38> int-e: I would think so. Maybe there might be some systems where this doesn't work although I expect it to work in most cases.
19:54:25 <int-e> Hmm, actually, what good is such an axiom schema? Knowing Oracle X doesn't tell you much.
19:55:17 <zzo38> I don't actually know the answer of that question.
19:57:56 <dulla> so an oracle of x?
19:59:28 <zzo38> Although |- Oracle Oracle X would indicate that |- X is a theorem, I think.
20:00:06 <dulla> go intuintionistic on it
20:00:11 <dulla> x is better than not not x
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20:08:05 <int-e> zzo38: tricky. it almost fails if the theory is inconsistent, but then X is a theorem anyway...
20:08:32 <int-e> classically, at least.
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20:21:27 <J_Arcane> Man, I've been on board with this for years: http://www.stopusinglinkedin.com/
20:25:22 <dorei> stop using web 2.0 xD
20:25:28 <int-e> "With these changes in place, developers can no longer build tools that allow you to better leverage your own professional connections." ... err, right, sure.
20:26:02 <int-e> "Linkedin prevents *US* from earning money with your data." ... cry me a river, baby.
20:27:11 <int-e> (I agree with the idea of not using LinkedIn, but these are the wrong reasons.)
20:27:14 <J_Arcane> well true, the latest complaint is not the most compelling.
20:27:30 <J_Arcane> the part where it's little more than a spam pyramid is the bigger one for me.
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20:44:29 <int-e> the dream machine: yea :-P
20:47:22 <zzo38> Tell the people that made PDJSON that I fixed the bug in it.
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21:27:30 <oren> J_Arcane: I'm aheadof the game, I never started using Linkedin.
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22:47:05 <zzo38> I made up a format that can be used in a HTML comment inside of a HTML form, which can be used to make the form to work with interactive command-line interfaces; for example this can be used to login to OpenID servers which support it. An example can be: <!-- [HTML-FORM-COMMAND-INTERFACE] "Login: " ?username "Password: " *concealed ?password *send -->
22:48:04 <zzo38> (The client would need to parse the form method and action too, as well as any hidden fields in the form)
22:49:00 <zzo38> It might be used for example now you can login to stuff other than webpages using OpenID too.
22:49:37 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
22:49:52 <zzo38> (Assuming there is a reason you still want to use OpenID for this)
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23:02:05 <callforjudgement> dulla: one of the tricks with this channel is, there doesn't really have to be a reason
23:02:59 <callforjudgement> oh, everyone, eso question that came up in another channel: what's the minimum number of transistors needed to have a functioning CPU, assuming you don't care about performance?
23:03:30 <callforjudgement> we have to assume that there's some sort of external memory for this to work, but presumably we can rig the details as appropriate (e.g. by use of a magnetic tape drive)
23:03:31 <zzo38> I want to know too the answer. Perhaps might TOGA computer do it?
23:04:20 <callforjudgement> it's got to be some sort of simple Turing machine, hasn't it? you don't want to waste transistors storing addresses
23:04:22 <tswett> Jafet: you want *all* the consistent statements, not just the provably consistent ones.
23:04:32 <callforjudgement> the (2,3) machine doesn't count because it requires an infinite initialization
23:05:21 <tswett> Taneb: also, Al Dente is totally an interesting concurrency esolang.
23:05:43 <zzo38> I like "Al Dente" esolang too
23:05:54 <tswett> There's no flow control. Stuff just spontaneously happens.
23:05:55 <callforjudgement> what about My Unreliable Past? that's a concurrency esolang really, even though it doesn't look like one
23:06:12 <callforjudgement> (I don't think anyone's guessed the original inspiration for that one yet)
23:07:09 <tswett> As for the CPU, bitwise cyclic tag might be the winner.
23:07:30 <zzo38> Now write out all of the transistors of it please
23:08:33 <tswett> Mmm I don't feel like it.
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23:13:38 <tswett> People don't sell unlimited-size RAM, either.
23:14:19 <tswett> Say each queue has four pins. Input, output, enqueue, dequeue.
23:14:26 <callforjudgement> so you can add more tape when you run out, without needing an infinite number of address bits
23:15:02 <callforjudgement> even if we assume our infinite queues are self-powering, they still need power pins to know what logic levels to use
23:15:03 <tswett> Does the clock count towards transistor count?
23:15:23 <callforjudgement> well it's very hard to make a clock with nothing but transistors
23:15:34 <callforjudgement> I think you can make a clock with one transistor plus a bunch of extra components
23:15:56 <callforjudgement> although I think that might give you a sine wave rather than a square wave? probably good enough, anyway
23:16:21 <tswett> So lemme think how this ultra-tiny CPU would work.
23:17:24 <tswett> I think the state could just be stored in a single flip-flop or whatever.
23:18:16 <oerjan> i hear this guy named babbage had an idea to make a computer with no transistors at all
23:18:20 <tswett> Mm, maybe two. Execute one command per two clock cycles.
23:19:12 <callforjudgement> oerjan: yes, but the implication is that we're making one with /only/ transistors
23:19:49 <tswett> Okay, so you have a one-bit register S, where zero means we're about to read the first bit of a command and one means we're about to read the second bit of a 1 command.
23:20:18 <tswett> As well as, I dunno, T, where zero means we're about to read a bit and one means we're about to write one.
23:21:32 <tswett> Even if the queue supports that, I'm not sure if the CPU logic could handle that.
23:21:56 <tswett> Well, this is what it is.
23:22:10 <tswett> T = 0 means we're about to read a bit. T = 1 means we're about to enqueue or dequeue a bit.
23:22:17 <tswett> You can't dequeue a bit and read a bit in the same clock cycle.
23:24:04 <tswett> So, upon clock positive edge, if T = 0 and S = 0, then we dequeue the data queue, enqueue the program queue, and subsequently dequeue the program queue.
23:24:19 <tswett> Except can you enqueue and dequeue in the same clock cycle?
23:24:34 <tswett> Maybe we can make it so that you enqueue on positive edge and dequeue on negative edge.
23:25:31 <tswett> The program queue's input and output pins can just always be shorted together. The enqueue and dequeue pins can be controlled by a single wire, but one of the pins needs to have a not gate before it.
23:28:25 <tswett> Which logic style (or whatever you call it) are we using?
23:29:05 <dulla> so an infinite without infinite addressing is more or less tape + some instruction storage?
23:29:10 <callforjudgement> I think RTL is going to be cheapest in most cases? or randomly changing between NMOS and PMOS?
23:29:13 <dulla> infinite tape without*
23:29:38 <callforjudgement> you don't want a logic style that drives both up and down because that needs twice as many transistors, even if it is more efficient
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23:33:32 <tswett> And are these real transistors governed by calculus, or idealized ones which act kinda like relays?
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23:35:19 <scarf> tswett: real analog transistors, but I don't see why we can't use them in the digital range
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23:36:05 <ais523> (for people who don't know, there are a range of ways to use transistors, but some make them act quite like amplifiers, and others make them act very digitally)
23:39:26 <oerjan> dulla: an infinite tape + a controlling finite state automaton, that's what a turing machine is.
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23:54:25 <tswett> You know what my favorite analog electronic component is?
23:54:31 <tswett> The Fourier transformer.
23:59:30 <ais523> how complex is one of those?