←2015-02-13 2015-02-14 2015-02-15→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:01:55 <tswett> Well, it's not real.
00:02:01 <tswett> Unless, of course, its preimage is an even function.
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01:11:13 <boily> hellørjan.
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01:11:46 <boily> @metar CYUL
01:11:46 <lambdabot> CYUL 140100Z 25007KT 15SM SKC M22/M30 A3012 RMK SLP204
01:11:47 <oerjan> *ach*oily
01:12:21 <oerjan> for once, the outside weather is immaterial.
01:12:22 <boily> the sickness disprovement worsened again?
01:12:25 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
01:12:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 140050Z 13002KT 1000 R09/P2000N R27/P2000N SN VV003 M01/M01 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 17001KT
01:12:41 <boily> the outside weather is the kind where your eyelids try to freeze together.
01:12:48 <boily> (seriously. no joke.)
01:13:26 <boily> oerjan: are you still mainly oerjan, or has the flu made a coup and installed a new government in you body?
01:13:33 <oerjan> well the _flu_ isn't getting that much worse now, but my back is really longing for an outside walk. and then there had to pop up a canker sore just for completeness.
01:15:17 <quintopia> boily!
01:15:19 <quintopia> how goes?
01:15:32 <boily> quinthellopia!
01:15:34 <boily> cold!
01:15:37 <quintopia> oerjan: sounds bad
01:15:46 <quintopia> cold as in temperature or illness?
01:15:48 <boily> oerjan: yuck.
01:15:59 <boily> temperature. re the previous @metar.
01:16:34 <boily> > (-21) * 9/5 + 32
01:16:36 <lambdabot> -5.799999999999997
01:17:08 <boily> quintopia: it's -21 °C (-6 °F) outside. much fun.
01:17:25 <oerjan> the last one sort of interfers with plans to gorge on comfort pizza and chocolate
01:17:45 <oerjan> (that's generally the right thing to do with a flu, right?)
01:18:05 <quintopia> feed a flu, starve an eating disorder?
01:18:09 <quintopia> wait that's not right
01:18:10 <boily> for me it's large doses of chicken noodle soup and OJ.
01:18:16 * oerjan fetches some chocolate anyway
01:18:28 <quintopia> thank goodness they invented kanka eh
01:18:41 <quintopia> i always buy some and can never find it when i need it next
01:18:55 <boily> speaking of pizza, today we ordered a special gigantic oversized poutine, with sausage, ham, mushrooms and bell peppers in it.
01:19:03 <boily> quintopia: what's a kanka?
01:19:05 <oerjan> well i _have_ had OJ, although i only drink half a cup per day as my stomach doesn't hold well with too much sour
01:19:08 <quintopia> that sounds like a good approach to cold weather
01:19:16 <quintopia> boily: medication for canker sores
01:19:54 <quintopia> i probably wouldn't need it if i brushed more regularly eh
01:20:06 <quintopia> so what you gotta do tonight boilyface
01:20:08 <boily> ah! something like anbesol!
01:20:14 <quintopia> no
01:20:16 <boily> no?
01:20:17 <oerjan> my understanding is that chicken soup for healing is an american thing, possibly jewish in origin.
01:20:26 <boily> don't care; has chicken.
01:20:27 <quintopia> anbesol is not waterproof
01:20:34 <quintopia> its for external sores
01:21:08 <boily> hm... I'll have to investigate that mysterious product.
01:21:28 <boily> meanwhile, tonight is the night where nothing happens much.
01:22:55 <quintopia> so...gaming?
01:23:22 <boily> uhm... <_<'... mainly reddit browsing hth
01:23:46 <quintopia> oh :(
01:23:59 <quintopia> so hard to find people who want to game with me
01:24:25 <boily> sorry, completely exhausted. I don't know how many hours I worked this week.
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01:28:43 <quintopia> games are work to you?
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01:30:11 <tswett> Depends on the game and how you play it.
01:30:34 <tswett> When I play Starcraft, if I'm trying hard to win, it's pretty stressful.
01:31:03 <quintopia> oh i like co-ops
01:31:17 <ProofTechnique> EU IV feels a lot like a job.
01:31:21 <quintopia> just fucking around and messing with stuff
01:34:20 <zzo38> If you don't like Starcraft then play game "I don't know"craft
01:35:39 <quintopia> i don't know if i like starcraft, but i'll play "I don't know"craft when you finish writing it.
01:37:03 <zzo38> Or, try to play Washizu mahjong by internet if you have any software to do so.
01:37:31 <quintopia> I already beat and 100%ed that game
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03:58:02 <zzo38> Why is it permitted for names of elements and attributes in XML to contain non-ASCII characters? My opinion is this is stupid and it shoudln't be. Non-ASCII characters should only be allowed in text (both normal and CDATA), values of attributes, and comments.
03:58:51 <pikhq> XML is overly complex as a rule.
04:00:48 <zzo38> Yes it is too complex, although it presumably is doing what it needs to do. Still a few things are a bit stupid.
04:01:17 <pikhq> Take a quick look at the processing instructions. :)
04:05:14 <zzo38> While it does have a lot of extensions, most of them are optional (and does not affect the syntax of the document) so it is not a problem. If you can ignore unknown processing instructions then it might work in some cases.
04:07:06 <zzo38> It does have a few good ideas such as namespaces, although the method of doing this might be a bit more complicated than it should be.
04:09:07 <zzo38> It does have far more complexity than it should have, although some files/services are using XML so a XML parser would be needed.
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04:21:00 <coppro> pikhq: wasn't "overly complex" a design goal?
04:22:47 <coppro> also related: oh my god I cannot wait for HHTP/2
04:23:54 <oerjan> hyperhyped transfer protocol
04:25:11 <pikhq> coppro: Not really.
04:25:21 <pikhq> It was supposed to be a simplified subset of SGML.
04:26:02 <oerjan> then they forgot to shoot the enterprise people before they started designing.
04:26:48 <coppro> *HTTP/2
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04:48:49 <pikhq> oerjan: Common problem.
05:01:18 <pikhq> Clearly the proper answer is to murder enterprises.
05:25:56 <zzo38> I want to read XML files in SQLite. I don't need DTD and encryption and fancy stuff like that, although I do want namespaces, and it would also help to support queries.
05:30:51 <zzo38> Is there suitable C library to do it with? With simple one file and don't need a configure script and so on
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06:32:25 <vanila> hi
06:34:47 <MDude> Hi
06:35:06 <vanila> whats up
06:37:41 <MDude> I keep getting distracted from writing things, and need to go to bed.
06:38:30 <MDude> Also, I got a microSD card but immediatley forgot the adapter to plug it into normal sized SD slots.
06:39:23 <MDude> Maybe I left that downstars actually.
06:41:13 <MDude> But yeah, I should write about ideas on chatbots and AI and stuff already instead of waiting until I implement stuff to write about it.
06:41:42 <MDude> Since getting my idea down somewhere probably helps get to work actually following through with it.
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06:57:55 <zzo38> What is your idea about it?
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07:10:48 <dulla> MDude
07:10:52 <dulla> tell em
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07:17:22 <MDude> I don't want to distract myself from sleeping currently.
07:18:03 <MDude> I'll try to get some stuff written down tomorrow, I'll try to do that first and then link the posts to talk about them.
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07:19:06 <dulla> dammit MDream
07:19:36 <MDream> It's all very simple stuff.
07:19:50 <dulla> well shit
07:19:57 <dulla> I'm still interested
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07:22:19 <MDream> I think I mentioned some of it before, about making variants of chatbots.
07:22:41 <MDream> But yeah, I need to make sure I'm not up too late.
07:22:52 <vanila> variants?
07:23:21 <dulla> they do something
07:23:23 <dulla> but
07:23:25 <dulla> they suck less
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07:23:49 <MDream> Of the general idea of how they work.
07:24:19 <dulla> or they have more general functionality
07:24:41 <dulla> but that'd require run-time reloading/factoring, or a dynamic structure which is a pain nin the cock
07:24:48 <MDream> The first idea I had on it was when thinking about how chatbots left in public tend to pick up rude behavior.
07:25:44 <MDream> If you string two chatbots together, the first one can do the learning, but isntead of speaking directly to the user it can pass it message through a more hardcoded chatbot that paraphrases it.
07:26:15 <MDream> And from there I came up with other ideas in which a chatbot is considered a node in a larger network.
07:26:59 <dulla> so more or less a multi-layer ANN for information representation
07:27:05 <dulla> So that shit stays pg
07:27:16 <dulla> and that they can't teach your dog to respond to a retarded name
07:27:27 <MDream> Yeah.
07:27:40 <dulla> With multiple inputs, it can gather more data in the long run
07:27:58 <dulla> Though you'd need to enforce some kind of channel-locality to some of the endpoints
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07:34:04 <MDream> This seems like a good place to leave it for now, rather than stringing things along further.
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18:01:06 <mrohman> This irc client eats 20% cpu
18:01:23 <coppro> lol
18:01:24 <mrohman> I wonder what it is doing
18:02:01 <mrohman> AndroIRC
18:02:21 <mrohman> Most cpu consuming client ever
18:04:21 <mrohman> Is there yet an or-typesystem?
18:05:48 <mrohman> (List (if p 5 5.0) "hi") has the type 《int or double or string》
18:08:37 <oerjan> mrohman: i've seen such a system for lambda calculus but damn if i can manage to google it
18:09:27 <ais523> mrohman: I was working on this in my thesis
18:09:29 <elliott> there are type systems like that. i forget the name. gradual typing systems often have it. typed racket is like that i think
18:09:32 <ais523> the normal search term is "intersection types"
18:09:38 <oerjan> argh
18:09:47 <oerjan> i tried "disjunctive" or "conjunctive" :P
18:10:13 <ais523> my favourite prior work on the subject was by Kfoury
18:10:21 <ais523> let me see if there's a publicly available link
18:10:46 <oerjan> it seems rather obscure to find regardless
18:11:30 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure this is the same thing
18:11:40 <oerjan> what i remember was _untagged_ types
18:12:05 <ais523> here we go: http://hdl.handle.net/2144/1597
18:12:18 <ais523> it's a technical report, so should be available even if you don't have subscriptions to every journal in existence
18:12:23 <ais523> (I like technical reports for that reason)
18:12:35 <ais523> that's very close to the stuff I was doing in my thesis, btw
18:12:38 <oerjan> e.g. \f x -> f (f x) had a type like ((x -> y) /\ (y -> z)) -> x -> z
18:13:16 <ais523> oerjan: that's exactly the type it gets in my bounded intersection types
18:13:23 <ais523> and regular intersection types also give it the same type
18:13:41 <oerjan> also, if you added an omega type that everything belonged to, you could characterize terminating terms in untyped LC as those that could be typed with the omega in only negative positions
18:14:48 <oerjan> (where negative position corresponds roughly to "you can take this as an argument but not return it")
18:15:08 <oerjan> and also to contravariance in functor terms
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18:15:27 <oerjan> note also that there was no quantification in this type system
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18:16:22 <oerjan> oh and you didn't need omega for strongly normalizing terms
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18:17:28 <oerjan> come to think of it, this was precisely the subject which got me to make my first SO post, way back
18:17:33 <oerjan> iirc
18:21:58 <oerjan> i guess "top" type mentioned in that report abstract is the same as omega
18:36:14 <dulla> intersections
18:37:31 <mrohman> Hm
18:38:15 <mrohman> I thought intersection types had something to do with value ranges
18:38:56 <mrohman> Certain expressions in my type system would bind a type
18:39:01 <oerjan> that's probably interval types
18:39:03 <mrohman> For example
18:39:08 <dulla> ?
18:40:04 <mrohman> (If (isint q) (add 1 q) (strreverse q))
18:40:25 <oerjan> gah
18:40:40 <mrohman> This would imply that q is (int ot str)
18:40:41 <dulla> ?
18:40:42 <oerjan> pattern matching is so much more elegant
18:40:58 <mrohman> So the add wouldnt typecheck
18:41:50 <mrohman> However you can add a rule that the if check binds q in subexpressions to a specific type
18:42:31 <mrohman> Which allows that add there typechecks statically as well
18:54:27 <mrohman> So in an essence the only reason for dynamic typed languages is being too lazy to write a typechecker
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19:04:08 <boily> mrhello.. mrohello? mrohmhellon??? hmm... hellohman, perhaps?
19:05:38 <boily> mrhelloman. I guess dynamic typed languages are "it works until it doesn't and you hit some runtime error", and static are "it doesn't compile until it does".
19:06:26 <ais523> I think you can write programs in dynamic languages that can't be decidably type-checked (without rewording them)
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19:08:36 <oerjan> f(n) = if n == 1 then "hi" / 0 else if odd n then f(3*n+1) else f(n `div` 2)
19:09:46 <boily> I'm not sure ghc will accept a blatant use of ‘"hi" / 0’.
19:11:14 <ais523> > f(n) = if n == 1 then "hi" / 0 else if odd n then f(3*n+1) else f(n `div` 2)
19:11:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input ‘=’
19:11:27 <ais523> > let f(n) = if n == 1 then "hi" / 0 else if odd n then f(3*n+1) else f(n `div` 2)
19:11:28 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘let f(n) = if n == 1 then "hi" / 0 else if odd n then f(...
19:11:31 <oerjan> boily: this is supposed to be a dynamical language hth
19:11:32 <ais523> hmm
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19:11:38 <ais523> > let f(n) = if n == 1 then "hi" / 0 else if odd n then f(3*n+1) else f(n `div` 2) in 0
19:11:39 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Fractional [GHC.Types.Char])
19:11:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Real./’
19:11:39 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num a)
19:11:43 <ais523> there we go
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19:12:04 <ais523> I think that would work in a hypothetical dynamically typed Haskell
19:12:18 <oerjan> yes, but it cannot be typechecked then
19:12:18 <ais523> although it has to end in either type mismatch error, or an infinite loop
19:12:54 <oerjan> i assume the point is to have a typechecking that is equivalent to "only err if the program would dynamically do so"
19:13:20 <oerjan> because otherwise, what's the question really.
19:13:53 <ais523> right
19:13:59 <ais523> in which case it's obviously undecidable due to TCness
19:14:14 <ais523> err, due to halting problem
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19:24:25 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then "hi" 0 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in 0
19:24:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a0 -> t’
19:24:26 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[GHC.Types.Char]’
19:24:26 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include f :: a1 -> t (bound at <interactive>:1:5)
19:24:44 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then 1337 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in 0
19:24:46 <lambdabot> 0
19:24:54 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then 1337 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in f 0
19:24:58 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:25:04 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then 1337 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in f 1
19:25:06 <lambdabot> 1337
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19:25:11 <dulla> neat
19:25:33 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then 1337 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in f 3
19:25:34 <lambdabot> 1337
19:25:42 <dulla> > let f n = if n == 1 then 1337 else if odd n then f (3*n+1) else f (n `div` 2) in f 9
19:25:43 <lambdabot> 1337
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21:23:19 <mrohman> Whaat
21:24:01 <mrohman> Of course i can typecheck it even if its tc
21:25:10 <oerjan> not in such a way that exactly the non-erring programs fail to typecheck
21:25:15 <oerjan> er
21:25:43 <oerjan> PLEASE ADD/REMOVE A NEGATION AS APPROPRIATE
21:25:44 <mrohman> Hm?
21:26:39 <oerjan> mrohman: you cannot make a typechecker that accepts all programs that wouldn't give a dynamic error and none that would, and does so before running the program
21:27:03 <mrohman> Oh
21:27:46 <mrohman> You mean (if p a b ) where b produces a runtime type error
21:27:56 <oerjan> yeah
21:28:04 <mrohman> But you cant decide p
21:28:15 <mrohman> True
21:28:31 <mrohman> But thats not what i'm aiming for
21:29:30 <mrohman> It's just that i want the style of such languages with static typechecking
21:29:58 <oerjan> i think the word "hybrid" belongs in there somewhere then hth
21:30:56 <mrohman> Which means that you have to account for ifs not always returning the same type
21:31:25 <oerjan> did you know that "hybrid types" gives you a lot of information on cars tdnh unless that's what you're looking for i guess
21:31:57 <mrohman> You wont need runtime typechecks then
21:32:32 <mrohman> But runtime type info
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21:47:26 <zzo38> You could make the compiler to defer the error until runtime, although this doesn't seems like very good in most cases (although maybe in some cases it might help, if it is possible at all in such case).
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23:02:33 <Sgeo> I can't tell if this soundfont has piano keys that last too long or if this music is just bad
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23:36:48 <Vorpal> Sgeo, you could say that is a key question
23:39:34 * Sgeo goes to buy all Ray Lynch music on Amazon
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