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00:04:47 <tswett> Man, I really like how you can define stuff in the language of categories.
00:04:59 <tswett> From now on, I want everything to be defined in the language of categories.
00:05:08 <tswett> Right now I'm working on defining "category" in the language of categories.
00:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i've already mentioned that godawful topology book i once read, i think
00:06:26 <tswett> Hm, what's a topological space in the language of categories...
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00:23:44 <oren> and barfing a lot will leave you with excess sodium
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01:13:02 <oerjan> and the bear has been noticed
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01:13:46 <oerjan> looks like it's the king
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01:18:33 <zzo38> Apparently there are at least three different IRC clients called PHIRC.
01:22:23 <tswett> I hope none of them are written in PHP.
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01:32:02 <zzo38> One of them is the one I wrote. I wrote it because I don't like any other IRC clients. I wrote in PHP but would want to eventually rewrite it in C, however I don't quite understand making internet connection with a C code.
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01:55:53 <tswett> I'm trying to write out the definition of a topos in a topos.
01:55:59 <tswett> This thing's complicated.
01:59:39 <dulla> there may be a problem with that
01:59:49 <dulla> how about using ZFC+
02:07:20 <oerjan> what would grothendieck do
02:07:40 <oerjan> (apart from running away into the forest)
02:10:22 <oerjan> i think my brain just vetoed me trying to read about topoi again
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02:15:49 <tswett> Most of it is pretty straightforward.
02:16:09 <tswett> A topos in a topos consists of these objects, and these arrows with these commutative diagrams...
02:16:31 <oerjan> and then the universe explodes.
02:16:56 <tswett> And then all of a sudden one of the things you need isn't an object, or an arrow, or a commutative diagram.
02:17:18 <tswett> It's a frickin' mapping from this collection of arrows to that collection of arrows.
02:17:42 <tswett> Nope. It's just a topos.
02:18:09 <oerjan> well also that sounds like a functor.
02:22:37 <tswett> Well, it's this: "An arrow EQ with certain properties. For all arrows M with the same properties, an arrow U with these other properties in relation to EQ and M."
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02:30:57 <tswett> Ah, but topoi are cartesian closed.
02:31:46 <tswett> So that last thing is really just an arrow again. I think.
02:32:54 <tswett> M is an arrow A -> B and U is also an arrow A -> B, so this "for all arrows M with these properties, an arrow U with those properties" is really just a single arrow (A -> B) -> (A -> B).
02:34:36 <tswett> Because having A -> B as a codomain doesn't express the restrictions which M has.
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03:54:04 <oren> wait. the plural of topos is topoi?
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04:16:58 <oerjan> oren: it's a greek plurla
04:17:52 <oerjan> i think -os/-oi is about as common in greek as -us/-i in latin
04:20:33 <oerjan> and essentially derive from the same suffixes in indoeuropean
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05:35:57 <zzo38> There is still one kind of question I have not received a satisfactory answer which has to do with automatically filling in the frequent words table for a Z-machine story file.
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07:08:01 <dulla> oerjan kick bluckbot
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07:09:35 <dulla> this ithe the channel that shares an abstract kind of feels, through the magic of math, and esotera
07:10:13 <dulla> this is the channel of esolang wiki
07:10:29 <HackEgo> merdach: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:11:26 <dulla> > let cock a b = a+b +1 in butt = 1:1: zipWith cock butt (tail butt) in unwords . map show . take 8 $ butt
07:11:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:31: parse error on input ‘=’
07:14:11 <dulla> > butt = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) butt (tail butt) in unwords . map show . take 8 $ butt
07:14:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: parse error on input ‘=’
07:14:26 <dulla> > let butt = 1:1: zipWith (\a b -> a+b+1) butt (tail butt) in unwords . map show . take 8 $ butt
07:15:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41918&oldid=41703 * AndoDaan * (+15) noted Kipple's Deadfish.
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07:18:04 <zzo38> I'm not sure what "this ithe the channel that shares an abstract kind of feels, through the magic of math, and esotera" is meaning, although it doesn't seem to be spelled correctly anyways, and possibly the grammar is also unclear.
07:27:45 <elliott> is dulla inviting people here ors omething
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07:56:16 <oerjan> dulla: your variable naming scheme needs work hth
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08:35:27 <dulla> what would you prefer, oerjan
08:37:14 <oerjan> something with less shock words
08:41:04 <dulla> > let tingle = repeat 1 in take 5 tingle
08:45:21 <dulla> > let gently = sum . map 1 in gently [3,6,9]
08:45:23 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> c))
08:45:23 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_11369’
08:45:23 <lambdabot> from the context (GHC.Num.Num (a -> c),
08:45:49 <dulla> > let gently = sum . map (\a -> 1) in gently [3,6,9]
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08:46:22 <dulla> > let tenderly a = 1 in let gently = sum . map tenderly in gently [3,6,9]
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09:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41919 * 122.37.11.94 * (+279) A esolang with only one keyword: PIG.
09:59:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41920&oldid=41919 * 122.37.11.94 * (+1) /* Usage */
10:01:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41921&oldid=41905 * 122.37.11.94 * (+10)
10:02:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41922&oldid=41920 * 122.37.11.94 * (+95) /* Hello, World in Pig */
10:03:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41923&oldid=41922 * 122.37.11.94 * (+1) /* Hello, World in Pig */
10:05:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41924&oldid=41790 * 122.37.11.94 * (+67)
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10:20:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41925&oldid=41923 * 122.37.11.94 * (+1) /* Hello, World in Pig */
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10:56:21 <lambdabot> Control.Monad join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a
10:56:21 <lambdabot> System.FilePath.Windows joinDrive :: FilePath -> FilePath -> FilePath
10:56:37 <mroman> why's there no join in Control.Concurrent?
10:59:12 <mroman> also Chan has no chanSize function :(
10:59:23 <mroman> (i.e. return how many items there are in the chan right now)
11:12:36 <mroman> http://codepad.org/QZcPNtQ9
11:12:39 <mroman> oh well. This is working :)
11:15:30 <zzo38> Now I invented many new Sliver cards for Magic: the Gathering
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11:58:11 <b_jonas> they're there in the list http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
11:59:48 <zzo38> Make up the kind of "Babson-task" with Magic: the Gathering; you have same cards as opponent's cards in their hand, and whatever card they play, the only winning move(s) involves the first card you play from your own hand being the matching card of they just played. (For example if they played Aether Snap then you have to play Aether Snap, if they played Artificial Evolution you have to play Artificial Evolution, if they played Ancestral Recall you
12:05:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was thinking a bit about that, and I think it might be possible, at least for about three or four cards
12:05:47 <b_jonas> though I haven't found a working construction yet
12:10:03 <zzo38> I wanted to do it with at least five cards though; preferably at least seven; however, even just three or four would do too, almost
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12:14:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: I might think about this a bit more later
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14:03:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41926&oldid=41921 * Rottytooth * (+20) /* L */ added light pattern
14:04:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41927&oldid=41926 * Rottytooth * (+131) /* A */ a programming language...
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16:02:30 <AndoDaan> For the Hello transposable world task "Your code must be transposable. In other words, your code must not be changed by this program: http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?transpose+lines" No change means no change to what your code outputs, right?
16:06:03 <elliott> sounds like it's a textural property
16:07:13 <AndoDaan> Hmm. The example C code given https://ideone.com/uEyGtr is alright?
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16:40:54 <int-e> it's an interesting task, but I dislike the coarse granularity for the program sizes...
16:41:55 <int-e> (since the program text must be a square. It'd be more fun if some triangular shapes were allowed)
16:44:22 <int-e> Hmm "triangular" isn't the right term...
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17:02:24 <int-e> Well, the lines of the lengths would have to be monotonely decreasing.
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17:09:41 <int-e> anyway the risk in doing that is that one could get a ton of L-shaped solutions. So maybe restricting to squares is a good thing after all.
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17:21:56 <Melvar> In one channel, I confused someone by talking about an L-shaped enter key, because he thought I meant a reverse-L, whereas I had never seen that type before.
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17:30:49 <elliott> wait, L-shaped enter keys are a thing?
17:36:29 <Taneb> elliott, I think I've seen some
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17:56:29 <mroman> is there an MP library for haskell?
17:58:09 <mroman> like Chan or MVar but over the web?
18:00:36 <mroman> sure I could just use read/show and tcp sockets
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19:20:52 <MDude> What's up, vanila bean?
19:24:06 <MDude> I should go write things.
19:25:09 <MDude> Maybe about chat bots.
19:25:17 <MDude> Mostly sitting around too.
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21:29:14 <fizzie> Just so you know, fungot has arrived. But I still don't have any Internet here.
21:31:25 <ais523> so fungot is trying to connect to #esoteric but failing due to lack of internet?
21:31:44 <ais523> or, hmm, I think I misinterpreted you
21:33:18 <AndoDaan> fizzie, the innie and outie of your stament contradict each other.
21:34:43 <AndoDaan> Though, I read somewhere that a couple of guys developed an internet protocol for use with carriere pigeons.
21:35:11 <fizzie> ais523: It's not trying to connect, I just meant that the physical hardware arrived.
21:35:38 <ais523> I take it you're now in UKland?
21:35:45 <fizzie> Although I haven't even booted the box up, been too busy.
21:35:53 <ais523> AndoDaan: IP over Avian Carrier is an RFC
21:36:09 <ais523> I further assume you're doing an ais523 and have borrowed Internet off someone, due to not having your own
21:36:16 <fizzie> IP over bongo drums is a thing too.
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21:37:04 <fizzie> I'm using a mobile thing. But it officially disallows tethering, so it's not suitable for fungotting.
21:37:49 <fizzie> I've ordered something more DSLy, but it might take a week or two more.
21:39:56 <fizzie> (This is Three's pay-as-you-go offering, because funnily enough you can't order a pay-monthly thing online without filling three years of address history, and the online form only accepts UK post codes.)
21:41:20 <fizzie> Still, they have a £15 "add-on" for 30 days of unlimited data, that's not too bad.
21:42:03 <ais523> 50p per day seem reasonable if you don't have another source of Internet access
21:42:17 <AndoDaan> Unlimited meaning limited, of course.
21:42:40 <fizzie> Plus they have this "feel at home" thing, which allegedly means I'll be able to use (25G/month or something) that data on my US visit, and also in Finland.
21:43:11 <fizzie> They have some traffic shaping thing, don't know about other limits.
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21:45:03 <fizzie> I still have a Finnish SIM too, but it's too big to fit in this phone.
21:45:25 <AndoDaan> I guess I could have access to unlimited funds, if I was only allowed to spend 15p a day.
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21:47:40 <fizzie> Back in Finland I used to use maybe 100-150M of mobile data per month, so the £10 "add-on" with 1G of data for 30 days might be plenty, after the home internet gets here.
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21:56:58 <fizzie> It's against the "Terms & Conditions"; I don't know if they've tried (or managed) to actually prevent it. (I remember reading one paper about guessing at the number of hosts behind a NAT based on TCP sequence numbers or source ports or whatnot, but that's probably a bit too fancy for real use.)
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21:57:10 <fizzie> (This is not a Three phone.)
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22:07:57 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: sadly, IO over Acian Carrier can't be used directly, you'd need some sort of IRC proxy. The latency of IO over avian carriers is too high to use TCP, but luckily I think (I'm not sure) an IRC client connection could be implemented without TCP.
22:08:41 <fizzie> dulla: Sharing a phone's network connection to other devices.
22:09:10 <dulla> So abuse of the sim card and services?
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22:09:52 <ais523> dulla: not necessarily abuse, some providers allow it
22:10:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? I didn't know they could limit you from tethering
22:10:32 <Vorpal> Thought that was a US ting only
22:10:47 <AndoDaan> Does irc make unique, idk, queries to people that are connected. Or could you fake a realtime connection?
22:10:47 <b_jonas> yes, some providers actually encourage it, as in, they're advertizing they allow sharing with multiple mobile devices in a more expansive package, to get more customers
22:11:10 <Vorpal> tethering is allowed by default in Sweden
22:11:22 <Vorpal> At least that was how it worked a couple of years ago
22:11:23 <dulla> So more or less they are allowing Multi-Sim phones
22:11:35 <dulla> Non-phone sim usage
22:11:59 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: you could get away with a connection with a very high lag, you'd just need some slight changes.
22:12:46 <Vorpal> Hm this is a stupidly short USB cable to use for this
22:12:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Three allows it for pay-monthly plans but not for pay-as-you-go.
22:13:01 <Vorpal> Was the only one I had on hand though
22:13:08 <b_jonas> AndoDaan: basically, due to how IRC is planned to resolve conflicts after a netsplit (conflicts like nick collisions or different channel modes on different sides), it's something that could be modified to work between Earth and Mars
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22:13:54 <b_jonas> which does require flow control so you can't just flood the server on the other side by requesting lots of pages with a huge response (say large videos)
22:14:01 <dulla> All I know is that Nick Collisions end in n-lateral kicking
22:14:06 <b_jonas> it works even better if the servers are local to the clients
22:14:28 <b_jonas> so the server can kick your connection rightaway if you're flooding,
22:14:34 <dulla> how does it resolve chan modes, b_jonas
22:14:45 <b_jonas> it's just that commands that go from the earth server to mars server or back will have lots of delays
22:14:54 <b_jonas> I'm not saying the softwares would work as is, but they could be modified
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22:15:11 <b_jonas> dulla: I'm not really sure, you'd have to ask on #freenode, but I think they compare timestamps and the earlier wins, or something like that
22:15:12 <dulla> high latency ain't bad
22:16:05 <b_jonas> dulla: it sure ain't bad, it's just that our current infrastructure (if you count the web or facebook, all encrypted and uncachable by proxies) doesn't work at all with high latencies
22:16:43 <dulla> Hmmm, at the very least, continuations could be helpful in high latency
22:16:46 <b_jonas> so basically you can't recruit laypeople for a Mars settlement mission because they won't be able to access websites unless the company who runs the particular website runs a server on Mars and manages the synchronization themselves
22:16:51 <dulla> But I know jack crap
22:17:51 <b_jonas> but maybe Facebook would put a server there and manage it somehow
22:17:55 <dulla> as far as synchronisation goes, let's get referential transparency as the norm for relational networks, yo
22:18:12 <b_jonas> and Youtube and whatever else
22:18:41 <dulla> For Youtube, segemented downloads
22:19:07 <b_jonas> (there might be also problems with bandwidth throughput too in the first few decades, but at least that doesn't come from a fundamental physical limitation that can't be overcome with slightly better infrastructure)
22:19:33 <b_jonas> dulla: no, for Youtube I think you really need a caching server on Mars
22:19:42 <b_jonas> which google could probably put there
22:19:48 <AndoDaan> Nah, FB and the like will be replaced by a company that treats the high latency as a feature, not a obsticle.
22:19:50 <dulla> Hum, I see what you mean
22:20:07 <fizzie> Oh, here's their definition of "unlimited": "All you can eat data gives you worry free internet use. Even if you used your phone for every minute of every day you could only use, subject to TrafficSense™, around 1000GB each month. We may use this cap to identify inappropriate use of the service, such as commercial use, which isn't permitted under our terms and conditions."
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22:20:19 <dulla> Curious about the diferences between low-medium-high latency programs
22:20:53 <AndoDaan> Wow. That's a high cap and it's cool that they defined their unlimited limit.
22:21:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: so it's like the other unlimited services: it's unlimited but they terminate your subscription after the first month you use it too much
22:21:44 <dulla> A caching server to cache the requested videos
22:21:57 <dulla> at least you know the terms of service, b_jonas
22:22:08 <dulla> still, high latency
22:22:11 <b_jonas> dulla: yes, or simply all videos as soon as they're uploaded, even before they're requested
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22:23:05 <dulla> That high latency, though
22:23:16 <b_jonas> and obviously it has to work backwards too, so all uploads from Mars are cached on Earth too
22:23:21 <dulla> I know medium latency is about 12 seconds, high is around at least a minute
22:23:37 <dulla> could use bitswap for caching
22:23:38 <b_jonas> dulla: but Mars is farther than that, right?
22:24:36 <AndoDaan> The Martian is an excellent book for such info btw. Just read it.
22:24:50 <dulla> well shit I have to come back later,
22:25:06 <dulla> mars stuff with b_jonas and AndoDaan, right?
22:26:36 <b_jonas> mailing lists (or usenet) should probably work too, as long as the mail servers filter spam locally
22:26:50 <b_jonas> it's just all the fancy modern stuff that wouldn't work
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22:27:01 <dulla> no resilience in modern things
22:27:05 <Vorpal> <AndoDaan> Wow. That's a high cap and it's cool that they defined their unlimited limit. <-- 1 TB / month isn't that big
22:27:05 <Vorpal> Unless you have an additional connection
22:27:06 <Vorpal> I hit 150 GB / month on my tablet alone (wifi only)
22:27:07 <Vorpal> Mostly on 1080p youtube
22:27:08 <Vorpal> Oh wait, in november I hit 172 GB
22:27:09 <Vorpal> According to the stats in Android
22:27:11 <Vorpal> And so far this month I hit 130 GB
22:27:12 <Vorpal> 118 GB of that on the youtube app
22:27:15 <Vorpal> AndoDaan, In a household where more than one person watches a lot of youtube you could easily hit a lot more than 1 TB / month
22:27:21 <b_jonas> I mean, I don't want to go to Mars, but if enough people go, the effect might be good here on Earth too
22:27:24 <Vorpal> What the fuck was that..
22:27:44 <dulla> start with the moon
22:27:47 <dulla> seriously, the fuck
22:27:56 <dulla> Shit's an 80's problem
22:28:14 <dulla> Don't need no McDonalds on mars
22:28:18 <b_jonas> dulla: Moon is easy, there's not much latency between the Earth and the Moon, current technology would just work
22:28:37 <b_jonas> satellite internet users can already handle that much latency
22:28:44 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well, you couldn't play CS GO from the moon
22:29:11 <dulla> No I mean sustainablity, b_jonas
22:29:33 <dulla> also, didn't old stuff run on medium latency
22:29:56 <Vorpal> dulla, what do you mean with "stuff" and with "medium latency"
22:30:06 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the problem is the other fundamental limitations like thermodynamics?
22:30:14 <dulla> more than a few seconds, less than a minute
22:30:23 <dulla> and stuff as in tech
22:31:29 <dulla> s far as anything goes
22:31:38 <dulla> just needs erasure codes out the ass
22:32:01 <dulla> generalised torrent
22:32:12 <dulla> none of this perfile crap
22:32:19 <Vorpal> Oh I thought you were talking about endianess
22:32:31 <Vorpal> Never heard of bitswap in the torrent sense
22:33:04 <dulla> more or less because it'd be stupid to tie block dictionaries, blocks, etc per file header
22:33:16 <Vorpal> I get hits about ADSL?
22:33:28 <dulla> I'm being dragged out the door
22:33:42 <dulla> ipfs.io is the site, it has the whitepaper, if you are interested, Vorpal
22:33:43 <Vorpal> If the pattern of noise versus frequencies heard in the bins changes, the DSL modem can alter the bits-per-bin allocations, in a process called "bitswap", where bins that have become more noisy are only required to carry fewer bits and other channels will be chosen to be given a higher burden.
22:34:05 <Vorpal> dulla, so yet another one
22:34:25 <Vorpal> What was the one I saw a while ago... Freenet? What happend to that
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22:58:52 <oerjan> fizzie: you now should have all the necessary information to calculate the answer to the topic question hth
22:59:24 <oerjan> i expect you already know whether fungot is african or european.
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23:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41928&oldid=41925 * 122.37.11.94 * (+106)
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23:49:08 <dulla> yet another what Vorpal
23:49:54 <dulla> It more or less compacts the issue of trackers into the unit client
23:54:07 <AndoDaan> Tourette's SyndromePIGMight be an interesting theme for an esoteric language.
23:56:27 <ais523> hmm, I am finding this page surprisingly amusing: http://www.minesweeper.info/wiki/Famous_Cheaters