00:07:42 <AndoDaan> Kinda want toplay minesweeper now.
00:13:27 <ais523> the most infamous is the Dreamboard
00:13:52 <ais523> Windows 3.1 Minesweeper has only a limited number of possible boards
00:14:00 <ais523> that one is the easiest, and many players memorized it
00:14:14 <ais523> and there's huge debate about whether Dreamboard records count
00:14:30 <ais523> the problem being a) did they just reset until they got the Dreamboard; b) did they recognise it after a couple of moves
00:18:23 <AndoDaan> Hmm. Seems like arguing that trying to go forthe record invalidates the attempt.
00:18:25 <ais523> and which of those count
00:18:50 <ais523> here it is, btw: http://www.minesweeper.info/wiki/images/b/b3/Dreamboard-10-MattMcGinley-270601.jpg
00:20:05 <AndoDaan> The dreams of it is not immediately obvious to me.
00:21:00 <ais523> basically it's that all the mines are concentrated together, and you have islands of wide open areas, and islands of miens
00:21:09 <ais523> meaning that solving the level requires fewer clicks than normal
00:21:21 <ais523> which is obviously desirable for a world record, especially if you have the layout memorized
00:22:32 <AndoDaan> Ah. They're looking to just clear the negative space as quickly as possible, ratherthan pinpointing bombms.
00:22:42 <ais523> because that's the win condition
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00:23:29 <AndoDaan> I see it now. Near three vast expances.
00:24:02 <AndoDaan> nope, Idk how to expand on my spelling of 'expand'.
00:25:04 <ais523> "expanses" is the correct spelling, I think
00:25:14 <ais523> at least, my spellchecker likes it
00:30:48 <AndoDaan> Thanks. The spellcheck underline things is near invisible in HexChat.
00:30:52 <ais523> Minesweeper is np-complete, right? or was it pspace-complete?
00:32:01 <AndoDaan> I was just thinking if I was misremembering if it was turing complete or np complete.
00:32:10 <ais523> it can't be TC, it's only finitely large
00:32:24 <ais523> ah right, it can't be above NP because all moves are irreversible
00:32:49 <AndoDaan> Instantly evident to those who are not me. :)
00:32:49 <ais523> meaning that the number of moves is polynomial-time
00:33:56 <ais523> if you have a potential solution to a Minesweeper board
00:34:13 <ais523> you can check whether it's genuine simply by counting the number of mines around each number
00:34:29 <ais523> that means that minesweeper is at most NP
00:34:48 <ais523> proving that it's actually NP-complete is harder, ofc
00:35:29 <ais523> dulla: "NP-complete" is a little awkward to define, but intuitively, it means that given any puzzle for which a solution can be checked for correctness in polynomial time, there's some Minesweeper board that's equivalent to that puzzle
00:35:33 <AndoDaan> I think it was proof by equating it to an already established np complete problem.
00:35:54 <ais523> NP-completeness and PSPACE-completeness are two common ways to translate the notion of Turing-completeness down to finite programs
00:36:02 <AndoDaan> That's even more vaguely remembered. I'm gonna look it up.
00:39:44 <AndoDaan> Reduced from 3SAT, apparently.
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00:42:58 <ais523> people always use 3SAT, or nearly so
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00:43:27 <ais523> although when I proved the generalized RNG-reversing problem NP-complete, I used the subset sum problem
00:44:32 <oerjan> they should use planar 3-coloring more
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00:46:04 <ais523> it doesn't translate too well to different genres of problem, I guess
00:46:26 <ais523> same reason that we show languages TC by implementing BCT or Brainfuck or Fractran, rather than INTERCAL
00:47:48 <AndoDaan> I'm working on lengthening the esointerpreter chain a bit, and that fact is really annoying.
00:48:13 <ais523> maybe I should work more on underlambda
00:48:27 <ais523> which might make esointerpreters obsolete, at least for the TC languages
00:48:42 <AndoDaan> Nearly got a kipple to MNNBFSL interpreter, but behind kipple it's OOP ork.
00:56:43 <ais523> is it just me, or is Pig a really awful language?
00:58:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41929&oldid=41916 * 203.99.128.1 * (+43) /* Instructions */
00:59:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41930&oldid=41929 * 203.99.128.1 * (+16) /* Instructions */
01:01:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41931&oldid=41930 * 203.99.128.1 * (+122) /* Instructions */
01:02:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41932&oldid=41931 * Ais523 * (-5) /* Instructions */ fix typo
01:04:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41933&oldid=41932 * 203.99.128.1 * (+71) /* Instructions */
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02:48:33 <ais523> b_jonas: now I'm curious as to what your solution to "utf8 to unicode" on anagolf was
02:48:43 <ais523> it ran faster than mine, so maybe it's not loading libraries?
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02:50:41 <ais523> the annoying thing there is that it would be trivial to write if only we could set command-line options, but we can't (the #!perl trick doesn't work for Unicodiness)
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03:16:07 <tswett> Ooh, I should create an "esoteric programming language" that's just an NP-complete problem.
03:16:40 <Zefphex> I should delete the internet
03:19:06 <ais523> that might be difficult, and a huge amount of valuable information would be lost
03:19:09 <ais523> I'd recommend against it
03:21:03 <Zefphex> DDOS the internets biggest servers
03:21:15 <Zefphex> And saturate them so they can't defend?
03:21:27 <ais523> DDOSing works less well on large servers than small servers
03:21:36 <ais523> for reasons that should be obvious if you think about it
03:21:52 <pikhq> And the owners of some of them tend to have huge budgets.
03:22:18 <ais523> have you any idea how little bandwidth there is on the Moon?
03:22:31 <pikhq> For instance, I imagine if your DDOS was enough of a threat Google could actually afford a gun DOS on your DDOS operation.
03:23:01 <ais523> (there is a communications satellite network around Mars, though; I don't know how much bandwidth it has for connecting with Earth)
03:23:04 <pikhq> That's where they shoot you.
03:23:43 <ais523> I don't think Google would need assassinations to stop a DDOS
03:23:48 <Zefphex> now to haunt Google servers with large ammounts of lag
03:23:48 <ais523> but the right way to think about it is
03:24:04 <pikhq> No, but if that's what it would take *they probably could*.
03:24:08 <ais523> Google gets a huge number of Internet connections /anyway/
03:24:19 <Jafet> Google would just reroute the internet around your attack
03:24:24 <pikhq> But yes, Google is practically running under a massive DDOS anyways.
03:24:38 <ais523> it's getting hammered by a large proportion of human Internet users at any given time
03:24:38 <Zefphex> Can't I just burn the buildings holding Google servers down
03:24:40 <pikhq> What most sites call "a DDOS" Google calls "Tuesday".
03:24:48 <Jafet> They do own a killer robot company now, so they could plausibly assassinate you if they wanted to
03:25:13 <Zefphex> How would you go about ddosing the internet
03:26:04 <pikhq> I don't think there's enough electrons for that.
03:26:56 <ais523> technically you could use the same electrons for each packet
03:27:00 <Sgeo> The root zone servers don't actually see much traffic due to caching, right?
03:27:04 <ais523> and just shove them through the wires really fast
03:27:17 <ais523> Sgeo: yep, pretty much everyone knows where, say, the .com servers are anyway
03:27:22 <ais523> so they don't have to ask
03:27:38 <ais523> they're probably seeing a bit more traffic now with all the weird suffixes ICANN opened up in their recent cash grab
03:27:39 <Sgeo> But on the other hand, DDOSing them might not be helpful for the same exact reason
03:27:41 <ais523> but probably not that much
03:27:51 <Sgeo> DDOS .com nses?
03:27:53 <pikhq> And the root zone servers are actually done pretty bizarrely as well...
03:28:09 <pikhq> Several hosts that share IP addresses, relying on how DNS is stateless.
03:28:51 <tswett> There's gotta be a theoretical maximum to how much information you can send through a wire.
03:29:12 <pikhq> There's nominally only, like, 6 root zone servers, but there's a few dozen servers that actually host the root zone.
03:30:02 <ais523> they're named after letters of the alphabet, so it has to be 26 or less
03:30:09 <ais523> but I'm pretty sure there's more than 6
03:30:12 <Zefphex> China is apparently ddosing Canada atm
03:30:23 <ais523> no, the Internet doesn't work like that
03:30:41 <ais523> what you mean is that some people in China are attempting to DDOS various targets within Canada, presumably with varying levels of success
03:30:46 <Sgeo> It may be possible for a country to totally disconnect another country
03:30:50 <pikhq> And all but 3 of them are nominally located in the US.
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03:30:54 <coppro> Google could possibly DDOS an entire country
03:30:58 <Sgeo> I think China could pull the plug on NK?
03:31:02 <Sgeo> But that's not DDOS
03:31:32 <Zefphex> Internet warfare would be scary
03:31:53 <Sgeo> Zefphex: some country accidentally blocked YouTube for much of the Internet
03:31:57 <ais523> Sgeo: I assume there are internet connections directly between north korea and south korea
03:31:57 <Sgeo> Again not a DDOS
03:32:02 <ais523> Sgeo: that was a DNS blackholing
03:32:22 <ais523> you claim to offer a shorter path to the site people are looking for, then discard the traffic
03:32:22 <Sgeo> Conclusion: The best way to attack the Internet is probably not DDOS
03:32:43 <ais523> that only works because of other ASes trusting your routes, though
03:32:45 <pikhq> ais523: Probably, but it's also probably a pretty lightweight link.
03:32:54 <ais523> if you do that sort of thing too often, they stop trusting them
03:32:59 <Sgeo> Nuke the underwater cables!
03:33:14 <ais523> also, I'd like to point out that the entire original purpose of the Internet was to survive nuclear attack
03:33:35 <Sgeo> Does splitting in two temporarily count as surviving?
03:34:10 <ais523> but even then it's connected enough that splitting it in two is unlikely
03:34:49 <Zefphex> If a big country internet usage wise say Europe would take on US servers who would win?
03:35:17 <Zefphex> Also who wants to buy a copy of cs6
03:35:42 <ais523> it's not like a country magically owns all the internet connections inside it
03:35:56 <ais523> also europe isn't a country
03:36:01 <pikhq> Hard to say. It's not entirely meaningful to even speak of "a country's servers" really... Things are sufficiently international these days that damage to most any country, hurts most all countries.
03:36:43 <pikhq> For instance, if China goes down the US is *hosed*.
03:37:12 <Zefphex> Its a big fuck up for nature to have made humans
03:37:40 <Sgeo> http://www.vhemt.org/ ?
03:37:41 <Zefphex> All humans have a large potential to be evil and destroy
03:38:07 <Sgeo> (Note: My linking does not imply that I endorse the views expressed therein)
03:38:17 <Zefphex> Some painless way of vaporising every human on earth
03:39:55 <pikhq> Like... antimater?
03:41:50 <Zefphex> lets all mate with our anti-selves
03:45:00 <ais523> this is getting increasingly offtopic
03:45:03 <ais523> also really depressing
03:45:19 <ais523> it'd be completely out of line for me to kick you, as you haven't really done anything wrong
03:45:24 <ais523> but I'm tired and irritable right now
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04:00:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SickPig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41934 * 122.37.11.94 * (+490) Created page with "SickPig is similar to the language [[Pig]], but it simulates a pig that is sick. ==Usage== SickPig follows the same syntax rules as [[Pig]]. You write the name of the text fil..."
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04:01:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SickPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41935&oldid=41934 * 122.37.11.94 * (+7)
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04:02:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41936&oldid=41927 * 122.37.11.94 * (-10)
04:03:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41937&oldid=41924 * 122.37.11.94 * (+59)
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04:11:20 <Jafet> "For example, imagine that a north-south–oriented ice skater, in orbit over the equator of a black hole and rotationally at rest with respect to the stars, extends her arms."
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04:13:11 <ais523> this is north and south with respect to the poles of the black hole?
04:13:16 <ais523> how does she figure out where they are?
04:13:59 <oren> Zefphex: "ddos's from the moon" is almost literally the plot of a book i'm trying to write
04:15:18 <oerjan> i hear the moon is a harsh mistress has already been written hth
04:16:53 <oren> ais523: maybe it's a kerr newman black hole and she has a magnemometer?
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04:19:44 <oren> oerjan: i thought they just threw rocks in that book
04:20:08 <oerjan> yes, and how could _your_ version not be lame in comparison, i'm saying
04:20:34 <pikhq> Huh, black holes can possess angular momentum.
04:22:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41938&oldid=41937 * 122.37.11.94 * (+0)
04:22:15 <oren> is there a real word for a magnemometer?
04:23:19 <oren> something that measures strength and direction of th magnetic field
04:24:01 <oerjan> in that case merely replace the second m by a t hth
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04:24:48 <oerjan> greek: fiendish, logical, or both?
04:25:13 <oren> lately i;ve been having a problem with my laptop screen where it starts going white, until I hit it.
04:25:58 <oerjan> you need to respect that your laptop has a different color identity.
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04:28:21 <oren> I think there's a connector loose inside, otherwise how would hitting it help?
04:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeadPig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41939 * 122.37.11.94 * (+394) Created page with "DeadPig is a version of the language [[Pig]], where the pig has obviously died. ==Usage== DeadPig uses the same syntax rules as [[Pig]], where you write the title of the text ..."
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04:31:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41940&oldid=41938 * 122.37.11.94 * (+58)
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04:36:14 <oren> Zefphex: Not that I know of. It's not worth fixing, given that the machine cost CA$200. I'll just buy a new one if this happens too often.
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04:40:19 <oerjan> at this rate we're going to need Category:حَرَام
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04:48:19 <Sgeo> 11 hours of thirst coming up :(
04:49:05 <Sgeo> And a medical procedure
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04:52:31 <Sgeo> Can I just sleep through thirst?
04:52:53 <oerjan> depends how tired you are
04:53:09 <Sgeo> Not tired at all, I slept through do-not-need-to-deprive-myself-of-food-and-water time
04:53:46 <oerjan> did you wake up just when it was too late to eat and drink tdnh
04:53:54 <ais523> I manage 11 hours without water frequently, even when awake
04:54:11 <ais523> the only place to get bottles of water at 4:54 AM charges £1.40 for them, which is really excessive
04:54:15 <Sgeo> No, and drinking water right now during the 6 minutes I have left
04:54:47 <oerjan> if i don't drink before going to bed i tend to have chaffed lips when i awake
04:54:58 <Sgeo> I'm scared of sedation
04:55:50 <oerjan> ais523: birmingham doesn't have drinkable tap water?
04:55:57 <Sgeo> And of having a tube stuck down my throat
04:56:01 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:56:17 <ais523> oerjan: it has excellent tap water, but the problem is finding a mains-connected tap and a container to drink from
04:56:36 <oerjan> dammit spilled coke on my sweater
04:56:52 * Sgeo tends to buy bottles of water just for the container
04:57:01 <Sgeo> At work I buy one a week, not sure if that''s particularly unsanitary
04:57:06 <oerjan> also t-shirt but that was going into the laundry soon anyway
04:57:07 <MDream> Is it an invasive prodecure?
04:57:18 <Sgeo> Then again, I may not be the best person to ask for advice on sane behavior
04:57:26 <Sgeo> MDream: are endoscopys considered invasive?
04:57:34 <Sgeo> It's a tube down my throat but I'm not being cut open
04:58:31 <MDream> I got an MRI once, though, and it turns out I didn't actually need to be sedated since I was good at laying still on my own anyway.
04:58:50 <oerjan> ais523: so birmingham has a tap shortage?
04:58:55 <MDream> I of course found this out after going several hours without eating.
04:59:08 <Sgeo> Wait, not eating is for sedation?
04:59:17 <ais523> oerjan: well taps tend to be confined to residential houses and food preparation areas
04:59:19 <Sgeo> I thought it was to not vomit while there's a tube in my throat
04:59:22 <oerjan> i simply cannot imagine anywhere in norway where it's further to a tap than to a shop
04:59:25 <MDream> But I would imagine they don't want to risk you gagging on the endoscoping camera.
04:59:33 <ais523> and toilets, which are plentiful, but which I don't really want to drink from
05:00:32 <MDream> Possibly that too, but also so the sedatives don't make you release an absolutely gigantic bowel movement as easily.
05:01:49 <oerjan> ok i guess _inside_ a shopping center.
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05:02:22 <Sgeo> Quassel seriously hits a nerve sometimes
05:02:27 * oerjan guesses he has no idea where ais523 spends his days
05:02:53 <MDream> I would like to carry cleaning equipment with me to areas with water fountains.
05:03:26 <ais523> oerjan: oh, the shops aren't open at 5am
05:03:40 <ais523> the massively overpriced water comes from a small vending machine about 10m from here
05:03:43 <MDream> Because there is one gym I'd visit every few years for some reason or another.
05:04:08 <ais523> when the shops are open, I can by a 2 litre bottle of sparkling or still water for 50p, which is much better value
05:04:11 <MDream> And there was a water fountain that has a single distinctive booger hanging on it for most of those several years.
05:04:18 <ais523> (again, the price is mostly for the container, I think)
05:04:18 <MDream> No once thouching it, no one cleaning.
05:04:36 <ais523> actually, it's a pity that the ASDA isn't near here: they literally sell bottles of tap water for like 15p
05:06:15 <oerjan> also i distinctly recalling having a cup when i was at university.
05:06:53 <oerjan> the one with the nice math on it broke when i was washing it ):
05:06:54 <ais523> part of my problem is I have nowhere to store things, really
05:08:14 <Sgeo> I would buy bottles of tap water
05:08:17 <Sgeo> Or empty plastic bottles
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05:09:14 <ais523> the thing is, I can't exactly carry empty bottles around with me all day
05:09:40 <ais523> my current solution is to buy a lot of water during daytime, and drink it
05:09:43 <ais523> then not drink water overnight
05:11:32 <ais523> I do much the same with food, actually
05:11:36 <ais523> because I'm not sure how long it'll keep
05:19:23 <Sgeo> "Polaris and Omnipotence both require level 5 to be trained in order to even start training level 1. Even if a drunken Dev/GM threw an Omnipotence book at you, you'd never be able to start training it. Same with Polaris."
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05:54:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DeadPig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=41941 * AndoDaan * (+487) PIGFARMER idea.
05:57:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DeadPig]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41942&oldid=41941 * AndoDaan * (+16) Noticed SICKPIG....
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06:08:34 <HackEgo> Oolicile: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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06:18:01 <oren> doesn't even look like a rainbow
06:18:49 <oren> rainbows are Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet
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06:26:09 <ais523> Oolicile: IRC color codes don't send exact colors
06:26:12 <ais523> they just send suggestions
06:26:19 <ais523> so your client is presumably using dark interpretations of the color codes in it
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06:43:46 <b_jonas> ais523: ah! now I've reproduced the 27 character solution at http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?utf8+to+unicode
06:44:01 <b_jonas> ais523: the 30 character solution simply hard-codes the three output numbers in decimal
06:44:12 <ais523> the 27-char solution is not cheating
06:44:45 <ais523> it even checks that the input is valid UTF-8
06:45:06 <ais523> because the function that doesn't check for that and simply sets the "this is UTF-8" flag has a name that's very slightly longe
06:47:49 <b_jonas> the short ruby solution is also non-cheating
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07:44:09 <Sgeo> nortti: you're an Evillious Chronicles person, right?
07:44:22 <Sgeo> Why is the new song Clockwork Lullaby 7 if there's no lu li la la la?
07:45:17 <Sgeo> Oh, it's there
07:46:36 <b_jonas> four hands and an axe, that elephant guy probably has double strike => http://www.pbfcomics.com/271/
08:07:26 <elliott> dulla: this is your second warning (re: "gay")
08:08:47 <oren> b_jonas: I think that is Ganesh
08:09:36 <elliott> dulla: I get the impression you don't much care
08:09:52 <dulla> I'm a race to the bottom and it's my first week here
08:11:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DeadPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41943&oldid=41942 * AndoDaan * (-16) Undo revision 41942 by [[Special:Contributions/AndoDaan|AndoDaan]] ([[User talk:AndoDaan|talk]])
08:12:02 <oren> I think future historians might be baffled as to how in the span of one century, "gay" changed meanings three times
08:12:11 <elliott> I mean slurs on day 1 already gave me pretty low patience. please don't make the channel shittier
08:14:23 <oren> Ok, maybe not historians. students of history perhaps. In the same way that I am baffled with the causes of the Crimean War
08:14:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DeadPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41944&oldid=41943 * AndoDaan * (-487) Removing unasked for, and hastily given idea.
08:14:47 <elliott> it's right there in the name
08:15:10 <elliott> deadpig should be pig + deadfish imo
08:15:56 <oren> wikipedia: "The immediate cause involved the rights of Christian minorities in the Holy Land, which was controlled by the Ottoman Empire." Me: "So they fought about in Crimea? Lolwut."
08:17:03 <oren> It may have made sense at the time, but it doesn't now.
08:20:22 <ais523> oren: I'm only aware of one outdated meaning ("happy", which is pretty innocuous)
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08:24:51 <oren> ais523: the sequence was: bright,happy -> homosexual (slang) -> homosexual (official) -> general pejorative
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08:27:52 <oren> The associated press now calls for "gay" over "homosexual" when once the reverse was preferred in proper writing
08:31:57 <dulla> is now a slang for the chinese
08:32:21 <dulla> haven't heard of that colloquialism since what?
08:35:58 <oren> dulla: Well, racists use that word all the time. LAst time I recall hearing it was some hobo in a McDonalds yelling at a Korean family who were conversing in Korean.
08:38:17 <dulla> Well, at least I know 98% of people are straight
08:38:23 <dulla> I'm not deluded in that respect
08:39:59 <oren> Toronto has a big problem with homeless and crazy people.
08:39:59 <oren> Lol that's off by a lot, dude
08:42:01 <oren> why that year? It wasn't that bad a year...
08:43:01 <dulla> Anyways, must be all this "Queering Agriculture" and "Queering Geology and Environmentalism"
08:43:08 <dulla> You can thank Maryland for that
08:45:00 <oren> The way people bring politics into science is a problem, but not a new one. In my father's day there was "Lysenkoism" and "communist science"
08:45:46 <dulla> Well, this is the information age
08:46:06 <dulla> There is too much opinion, and not enough fact to dissuade all these new age peddlers
08:47:17 <oren> dulla: That has always been the case. Those who print the textbooks and newspapers have the power to mold the perception of reality.
08:47:44 <dulla> And business weekly came out with unsurprising figures about the most generous donors to media
08:48:06 <dulla> not sure about academia, but the liberalism there is far from classical, neo-, rather
08:48:37 <oren> dulla: but for the first time in history, it is practically free to post your opinion to the entire world.
08:49:18 <dulla> bit late, but at zero marginal cost it's a terrible supply side
08:52:58 <oren> This level of marginal cost means that opinions are in heavy competition, and it is possible for someone to read news exclusively tailored to their views.
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08:55:59 <oren> Because of this, people can exist within their own "reality" where within reason, what they want to be true, is true.
08:56:38 <int-e> those problems will only get worse as long as countries pay more attention to their GDP than to minimum and median incomes as a measure of economic performance and wealth.
08:58:07 <oren> int-e: the problems with people being able to select their own reality, or the problems with poverty?
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08:59:09 <dulla> It would be great if they realised the tax only screws everyone but the plutocrats
08:59:50 <int-e> The former isn't a problem per se, though it probably has some undesirable real world implications.
09:01:28 <int-e> (Hmm, has anybody ever blamed Google for contributing to catching people in a bubble of radical ideas that are internally consistent?)
09:02:29 <ais523> I know people blame Reddit for that a lot, and DuckDuckGo claims not doing that as one of its marketing points
09:02:56 <int-e> dulla: I think they do; it's intentionally designed that way. Politicians get their share in the form of thinly disguised bribes.
09:03:29 <int-e> ...thinly veiled...
09:03:38 <dulla> Eh, why are public services such good laundering grounds
09:03:52 <int-e> ais523: thanks, interesting.
09:04:23 <dulla> Well, at least we can make cracks about how the Pentagon used USA Today as a credible source on Putin's neurotype
09:04:44 <dulla> Poor show, and even then, it only means you are getting slapped around by an atypical
09:05:11 <oren> I just bubble-hop when reading the news: RT, Fox, Xinhuanet, Asahi Shinbun, BBC.
09:06:24 <dulla> I simply don't use google to find things
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09:06:41 <oren> I google things with Bing
09:08:42 <oren> baidu is a good portal to a different bubble
09:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeadPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41945&oldid=41939 * 122.37.11.94 * (+144)
09:12:56 <oren> Deadpig. Mxlnt!
09:27:44 <oren> http://dilbert.com/strip/2005-08-21
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09:59:43 <oren> did youknow you can make popcorn in bacon fat?
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11:30:51 <AndoDaan_> Boily. What's with you and chicken?
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11:38:38 <int-e> HYPERCRITICAL CHICKEN
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11:40:53 <AndoDaan> That's your answer? It's good?
11:42:53 <boily> see, int-e understands the chicken.
11:43:07 <boily> (also, int-hello!)
11:43:26 <boily> it's very zen to qualify chickens. therefore it's good.
11:44:06 <int-e> it's a transcendential thing
11:44:25 <b_jonas> (1044) DO REINSTATE CHICKENS
11:44:47 <int-e> PLEASE CHICKEN OUT
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11:52:13 <mroman> Chickens are just a co-monad in the category of birds.
11:52:55 <Taneb> mroman, I am not sure that that makes sense
11:53:05 <Taneb> What is composition in the category of birds?
11:54:12 <Taneb> That makes more sense
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11:56:37 <boily> mrhelloman. Tanelle.
11:56:56 <boily> mroman: if monads are monoids in the category of endofunctors, what are comonads?
11:57:51 <Taneb> comonoids in the dual category of endofunctors I think
11:58:40 <Taneb> Although I am not convinced that comonoids are a thing that is different from monoids
11:58:58 * AndoDaan wonders if we're still talking about chicken
11:59:31 * boily brains suffered an out of memory error.
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12:02:38 <boily> int-e: do you know enough CT to assert that comonoids are a thing, and if so how they relate to comonads?
12:03:01 <elliott> comonads are comonoids in the category of endofunctors, like you'd expect
12:03:08 <elliott> however comonoids in Hask or such are boring
12:03:28 <elliott> you get blah :: a -> () and bleh :: a -> (a,a) with laws that make it so that bleh x must be (x,x)
12:03:47 <elliott> (as opposed to mempty :: () -> a and mappend :: (a,a) -> a)
12:05:06 <elliott> sorry, it disappointed me too
12:05:13 <elliott> if it helps there's some kinda relationship to linear logic.
12:05:22 <elliott> like !A is a comonoid, I think.
12:06:18 <boily> what is linear logic?
12:06:40 <elliott> uhhhh, that's a whole 'nother story
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12:08:44 <boily> I'll be wikipédiaing later. too much blood in my coffeestream now.
12:08:56 <mroman> isn't blah and bleh the same thing?
12:09:37 <mroman> a -> a and a -> (a,a) should be pretty much the same thing
12:10:02 <mroman> it's an isomorphism after all?
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12:15:03 <AndoDaan> It's like ten thousand Chickens when all you need is some rice.
12:18:53 <mroman> All you need is a thread pool full of chickens laying eggs.
12:19:10 <mroman> Just make sure they put their eggs into an MVar.
12:19:36 <mroman> Maybe Chicken: Just Hen | Cock
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12:27:16 <mroman> You should learn Haskell ;)
12:27:43 <AndoDaan> I forgot how I was going to make the eggs in one baskett(?) joke.
12:29:10 <AndoDaan> I probably should. I'm getting adept with JS at the moment. A vast improvement over Lua. But I feel like it doesn't contribute much to any deeper understanding of programming.
12:30:08 <AndoDaan> It's all "Developers! Developers! Developers!"
12:31:16 <AndoDaan> I've started that Haskell online book twice now. But lost focus.
12:37:59 <mroman> but that's no excuse to not learn haskell
12:38:57 <AndoDaan> How would learning haskell help me better understand esoteric languages?
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12:44:49 <mroman> Haskell *is* an esoteric language
12:45:38 <mroman> @pl let f x y z = (x && y) && (z || y || x) in f
12:45:38 <lambdabot> ap (ap . (((.) . (&&)) .) . (&&)) ((flip (||) .) . flip (||))
12:45:55 <mroman> "ap (ap . (((.) . (&&)) .) . (&&)) ((flip (||) .) . flip (||))" looks pretty esoteric too me
12:49:21 <mroman> f(g(h(x)) = f .g . h $ x
12:50:04 <lambdabot> ‘>>’ (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
12:50:13 <mroman> @define let ($>) = flip ($)
12:50:17 <mroman> @define ($>) = flip ($)
12:50:54 <mroman> > 4 $> (*3) $> (+1) $> ([])
12:50:55 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘b0 -> c’ with actual type ‘[t0]’
12:51:01 <mroman> > 4 $> (*3) $> (+1) $> (\c -> [c])
12:51:11 <mroman> > 4 $> (*3) $> (+1) $> (\c -> [c,c]) $> map (*2)
12:51:28 <AndoDaan> Yep, definitely looks esoteric to me. Well made point.
12:52:33 <mroman> > 5 $> (Just) $> fmap (+1)
12:52:48 <mroman> > 5 $> (Just) $> fmap (+1) `mappend` (Just 6)
12:52:49 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show b0)
12:52:49 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M42903801347602899049054.show_M42903801347602899049...
12:52:49 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
12:53:08 <mroman> > (5 $> (Just) $> fmap (+1)) `mappend` (Just 6)
12:53:10 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show b0)
12:53:10 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M31568903824889092139084.show_M31568903824889092139...
12:53:10 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
12:53:24 <mroman> > Nothing `mappend` Nothing
12:53:31 <AndoDaan> Monoids are one input variable functions?
12:53:33 <mroman> > (Just 5) `mappend` (Just 6)
12:53:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
12:53:34 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘M44189842421378468049108.show_M44189842421378468049...
12:53:34 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
12:53:48 <mroman> > ((Just 5) `mappend` (Just 6)) :: Just Int
12:53:50 <lambdabot> but ‘Data.Maybe.Just GHC.Types.Int’ has kind ‘Data.Maybe.Maybe *’
12:53:58 <mroman> > ((Just 5) `mappend` (Just 6)) :: Maybe Int
12:53:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Int)
12:53:59 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘Data.Monoid.mappend’
12:54:33 <mroman> > ((Just 5) `mappend` (Just 6)) :: Maybe ()
12:54:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num ()) arising from the literal ‘5’
12:54:41 <mroman> > ((Just ()) `mappend` (Just ())) :: Maybe ()
12:55:02 <mroman> > foldl1 mappend [Just (), Just (), Nothing]
12:55:07 <mroman> > foldl1 mappend [Just (), Just (), Nothing, Just ()]
12:55:46 <AndoDaan> I feel like I've just witnessed a fascinated argument in Esperanto.
12:55:50 <lambdabot> Data.Monoid First :: Maybe a -> First a
12:55:50 <lambdabot> Control.Arrow first :: Arrow a => a b c -> a (b, d) (c, d)
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12:56:06 <lambdabot> Prelude all :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
12:56:07 <lambdabot> Data.List all :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Bool
12:56:24 <mroman> foldl1 mappend [All True, All False]
12:56:29 <mroman> > foldl1 mappend [All True, All False]
12:56:40 <mroman> what's foldl1 mappend again?
12:56:56 <mroman> I thought there was a shortcut for that
12:57:12 <mroman> @hoogle foldl1 mappend
12:57:26 <lambdabot> Data.Foldable fold :: (Foldable t, Monoid m) => t m -> m
12:57:26 <lambdabot> Data.IntSet fold :: (Key -> b -> b) -> b -> IntSet -> b
12:57:26 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap fold :: (a -> b -> b) -> b -> IntMap a -> b
12:57:37 <mroman> > foldl [All True, All False]
12:57:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘b -> a -> b’
12:57:38 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Data.Monoid.All]’
12:57:41 <mroman> > fold [All True, All False]
12:59:29 <mroman> AndoDaan: [] is a Foldable and All is a Monoid
13:01:22 <AndoDaan> Folding is like Burlesque's reduction?
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13:04:08 <mroman> if you know haskell you can extend burlesque!
13:06:28 <AndoDaan> I don't think I'd ever be adept enough to mess with anybody their well crafted work.
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13:08:05 <mroman> as if Burlesque were well crafted
13:08:40 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/lisp/spec.html
13:08:43 <mroman> this is much more well crafted
13:09:01 <AndoDaan> It's the first esolang I learned to program in. It holds a special place in my esteem.
13:09:42 <mroman> (http://codepad.org/kZPDim0y)
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13:10:05 <mroman> (^- you can use this program to circumvent firewalls)
13:18:27 <mroman> If you'd like to help go ahead :D
13:18:57 <mroman> There's lots of things that need doing that can be done in the language itself
13:19:02 <mroman> so no haskell knowledge is required
13:19:19 <mroman> (for example a lib to read/write PPM images or stuff like that)
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13:21:46 <mroman> or you could write an interpreter in Java/Python for it
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13:23:16 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I do not have information of fungot's migration route. Although I could compute a lower bound.
13:23:30 <AndoDaan_> I think I'm still a ways away from implenting something as complex as Burlesque.
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13:24:11 <mroman> I meant implementing my Lisp Dialect
13:24:22 <mroman> It's always good to have multiple implementations available
13:24:51 <mroman> reimplementing Burlesque is WAAAAAAY TOOOOO MUCH effort
13:25:06 <blsqbot> | "I have 358 non-special builtins!"
13:25:13 <AndoDaan> Hmm, I'll look into that. Do you have a more informal description of P~.
13:25:26 <mroman> but the newest dev version is around 380 :)
13:26:46 <mroman> P~ is more or less just a LISP dialect
13:27:01 <mroman> I can give you lots of example code
13:28:10 <mroman> http://codepad.org/tUx6pq4G
13:30:35 <mroman> that's probably what sets it apart the most.
13:32:03 <int-e> TIL that proving the Knaster-Tarski fixed point theorem becomes really hard if you mix up the definitions of least and post fixed points :P [for some reason, the least element of a complete lattics is not a fixed point of most monotone functions...]
13:32:31 <mroman> It has good multithreading built-in
13:32:42 <mroman> don't know what LISP has to offer there but I'm sure LISP has multithreading too
13:33:06 <mroman> just think of it as yet another LISP dialect
13:33:42 <mroman> I like experimenting with stuff I guess
13:33:52 <AndoDaan> I haven't done anything with Lisp since I've read Godel, Escher, Bach years ago.
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13:34:14 <AndoDaan> Or mathemagical themas... one of those two.
13:35:03 <AndoDaan> Me too, but I don't seem to have your knack of producing viable offspring out of experimentation.
13:35:04 <mroman> you can always just add Burlesque to it :)
13:36:04 <mroman> digitsum -> (`XX++` $0)
13:43:15 <AndoDaan> Over the past few months, I've workend on maybe half a dosen ideas for my own language, but I never seem to be able to output anything.
13:44:19 <AndoDaan> I'm doing that wrong, I think.
13:46:59 <AndoDaan> Anyways. I know I'm nowhere near as skilled as any of the group here, but I was hoping enthousiasm would help me to add something of myself.
13:54:35 <mroman> How do you think I feel around here?
13:54:58 <int-e> it's nice to see some activity even without fungot here :P
14:00:41 <AndoDaan> Wait. Befunge was the first esoteric language I coded in, Burlesque second. Sorry.
14:04:59 <b_jonas> try some really esoteric languages
14:06:01 <AndoDaan> If haskell is esoteric than burlesque true enough esoteric.
14:09:30 <mroman> but compared to 99% of the people in here I know shit about anything
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16:16:55 <Taneb> I've had a ridiculous idea on how to implement Eodermdrome
16:17:54 <fizzie> Does it involve living things?
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16:18:22 <Taneb> fizzie, only incidentally
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16:21:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, transpiling it into a research language one of my lecturers made that has similar semantics
16:22:01 <Taneb> And is already implemented
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16:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the subgraph search is the main barrier to implementation, right?
16:23:32 <Phantom_Hoover> if the implementation does that then you could just reuse it
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16:26:10 <Taneb> That is a fair point
16:26:34 <Taneb> However I do not know the license on this code
16:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> does it not say? and if not you can always ask the lecturer
16:29:05 <int-e> (could it be down?)
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16:39:11 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I could do
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17:01:03 <J_Arcane> Hmm. Do I write my next Lisp in JavaScript or F# ... XD
17:01:52 <vanila> a guy in #scheme is writing a nice js one which runs in a abrowser
17:02:49 <coppro> vanila: HTTP/2 has a lot of cool things. Most importantly, it allows all content needed from a server to be served over a single connection
17:03:12 <coppro> so for instance, if you visit a page with lots of images, all the images would be sent as requested, rather that negotiating separate connections for each one
17:03:13 <vanila> that's definitely an improvement
17:04:08 <coppro> and unlike existing pipelining, it doesn't rely on a specific order of content
17:04:18 <coppro> so the server can respond to the requests in whatever order it wants
17:04:29 <vanila> coppro, the web make me sad though
17:04:51 <J_Arcane> Right now though I think I want to write a basic string-format function for Heresy.
17:06:15 <J_Arcane> I kinda wish Heresy had a Haskell style 'show'. It would be a lot easier to write said string-formatter.
17:06:36 <vanila> well why dont you add it
17:06:54 <pikhq> I look forward to the end of sharding.
17:06:59 <vanila> i guess its tricky to copy typeclasses
17:07:07 <vanila> but you can dynamically dispatch to show
17:07:43 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I probably won't go that far. But a simple (show ...) or (str ...) function that turns most arguments into their string representation should be good.
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17:10:02 <J_Arcane> I could just extend str$ to accept lists really; or even just to (print ...) to an open string value, which would be quite easy.
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17:24:22 <vanila> do you have an new ideas
17:27:21 <coppro> all my ideas are recycled
17:27:42 <vanila> im bored help me out :)
17:27:49 <vanila> has anyone veen looking into anything cool
17:27:52 <MDude> New ideas for languages, presumably?
17:29:21 <MDude> I dunno about new, but there's stuff I haven't seen implemented or talked about much.
17:32:03 <J_Arcane> Hmm. what char to use for the templat value signal.
17:34:58 <J_Arcane> Lisp tradition tends to use ~, C tradition is %, and the BASIC standard (seldom implemented) is #.
17:35:24 <J_Arcane> I also thought of using _, just because it seemed like a value less likely to be needed as a regular character.
17:35:33 <MDude> Hmm, I thought I had something bookmarked.
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17:36:48 <fizzie> And theen usee thee usual trick of doubling thee eescapee characteer to seelf-inseert.
17:37:57 <J_Arcane> Racket supports Unicode. A shame there's not a Unicode value for the Elder Sign.
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17:39:49 <MDude> Various kinds of non-classical logic can be interesting.
17:40:34 <MDude> I don't really see much being done with those.
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17:41:51 <MDude> Well, fuzzy logic actually is pretty well known for AI stuff.
17:42:28 <MDude> I don't remember reading about modal logic being used for computation, but a quick search turned up a pdf on it.
17:43:38 <MDude> I'm trying to find the article on Gsome reek logic of discussion system or whatever.
17:46:15 <dulla> as long as it doesn't completely go to pseudoprobablity on that fuzzy logic
17:46:38 <dulla> I like my chances in [0,1]
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17:54:29 <MDude> Anyway, another idea I'll try to write about some later is on chatbots.
17:55:22 <MDude> Basically taking a regular chat bot, and using it as a node in a network that passes messages to each other.
17:56:09 <MDude> So, to start with you'd have a learning bot that tries to mimmic visitors, but it'd pick up dumb stuff from people messing with it.
17:57:18 <MDude> But if you had a non-learning chatbot trained to just paraphrase anything said to it politely, you could use it to filte anything said to the first bot.
17:57:56 <dulla> That'd put heavy weight on the filter
17:58:05 <MDude> So the pair of bots as a network would appear as one bot that sort of mimmics people, but tries to sound polite.
17:58:50 <dulla> If you find that Gsome reek logic thing
17:59:47 <J_Arcane> Wee! That was as easy as I expected.
18:00:17 <MDude> That's just whatever it is where categories of thigns are descriped as "all x are y", "some x are y", "not all x are y", and "no x are y".
18:00:44 <MDude> And I think is used in the type of argument that involves two postulates and one conclusion?
18:00:59 <J_Arcane> Wrote my first version of a string formatter.
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18:08:25 <MDude> I can't remember any of the terms I want to sue here.
18:08:49 <MDude> I should just eat and take a nap.
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18:45:02 <vanila> I talked a bit about reversible computation in #haskell
18:45:04 <vanila> you can read it if you like
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19:01:31 <MDude> Reversible computation sounds nice.
19:01:38 <vanila> it's a fascinating subject!
19:01:47 <vanila> but you can see the logs
19:03:01 <MDude> Here we go, he thing I was thinking of.
19:03:13 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_proposition
19:04:55 <vanila> <dulla> you lied to me vanila , you are strawberry
19:04:58 <vanila> <geekosaur> surely that'd be "strawbery"?
19:09:19 <MDude> So anyway, what about a programming language with classes, in which classes are described in terms of categorical propositions?
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19:10:32 <vanila> I guess logic programming is a basic example of this
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19:10:49 <vanila> where you write out assertions of facts
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19:12:00 <vanila> https://github.com/jeffreycwitt/catlogic this was linked from the wiki page
19:12:14 <dulla> why are you peddling LogicT, by the way, vanila
19:12:29 <vanila> i never talked about it
19:13:34 <vanila> i feel like it's a different type of reversible, not sure..
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19:18:00 <vanila> oh darn, im having a problem with xz
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19:31:56 <J_Arcane> This is what I did for fun this evening: https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/master/lib/string.rkt#L78
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19:56:52 <MDude> I've been working on http://orteil.dashnet.org/randomgen/?gen=http://mdude1350.webs.com/generators/random-code/IBNIZ-basic-generator.txt
20:00:53 <MDude> It produces random texts which, most of the time, are syntactically valid IBNIZ programs.
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20:02:07 <MDude> Mostly I'm trying to reduce the probability of boring programs without making the results too predetermined.
20:02:26 <dulla> So you are making completely random ones?
20:02:42 <dulla> also, I have 1.7e21 heavenly chips
20:02:45 <MDude> That's what I'm trying to do.
20:03:31 <MDude> http://orteil.dashnet.org/randomgen/?gen=http://mdude1350.webs.com/generators/random-code/IBNIZ-simple-generator.txt
20:03:46 <MDude> This is a earlier version of it.
20:04:07 <MDude> The thing is, I want to avoid stuff like adding a number only to immediately pop it.
20:04:41 <MDude> Or putting two constants in and doing an operation that just makes a third constant.
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20:05:04 <MDude> Since that just uses up space.
20:05:11 <MDude> So I want them to be random, but terse.
20:05:36 <MDude> The other is that adding commands completely randomly causes stack over and underflows.
20:06:12 <MDude> So at first, I was just trying to string together commands that added up to a net change of zero to the number of items in the stack.
20:06:50 <MDude> But that can still cause underflows early in the program depending on what order things end up in.
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20:08:42 <MDude> It'd be easier to made random programs in a language that groups with parentheses, I think.
20:08:56 <MDude> Or at least has a BNF definition written up.
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20:22:43 <MDude> As I was saying before my computer turned off, most languages don't do A/V as simply as IBNIZ does.
20:23:24 <MDude> But I could try making something for http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/ which is audio-only.
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21:08:43 <oren> MDude: BY A/V you mean audio and video?
21:12:05 <elliott> architecture/ventriloquism
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21:34:25 <MDude> Yeah, audeio/video. That's what IBNIZ does with whatever's on the stack after each cycle the programs runs.
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21:39:07 <J_Arcane> MDude: IBNIZ is a pretty great thing.
21:42:34 <MDude> I would think it'd be simple to generate arbitrary programs in this text generator, but it seems to really not like recursion.
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22:03:28 <MDude> Or, I forgot to define what operators are.
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23:27:12 <dulla> some guy asked about the wiki, "it down?"
23:27:13 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 3m 56s ago: I do not have information of fungot's migration route. Although I could compute a lower bound.
23:28:08 <oerjan> i am not someone who can fix it.
23:28:22 <oerjan> also, may i recommend downforeveryoneorjustme
23:28:24 <dulla> Should we call in Stallman?
23:28:58 <oerjan> sadly they both look idle
23:29:17 <dulla> fizzie are terrorists attacking your servers? You may need to do something about it
23:29:42 <oerjan> dulla: the server is known to be crap, it's free hosting.
23:29:55 <oerjan> so outages are to be expected.
23:30:08 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo hi"]} target:#esoteric rest:"hi"
23:30:30 <oerjan> oh HackEgo isn't even here
23:30:42 <oerjan> it's likely the server is physically down, then.
23:30:49 <dulla> fizzie rescind that previous statment, did a stiff breeze cause the servers to reformat?
23:31:18 <oerjan> dulla: fizzie is likely to be asleep, he's in britain and has a job...
23:31:27 <oerjan> and has been idle for 5 hours
23:31:45 <oerjan> Gregor has also been idle for 5 hours, but is normally in canada these days
23:32:20 <dulla> site admins that sleep
23:32:36 <dulla> scratch that, site admins that are awake
23:32:52 <AndoDaan> Okay. Thanks for the downforeveryone... tip. Didn't know about that. Handy.
23:33:06 <oerjan> unfortunately there are only those two that can access the server as opposed to just the wiki.
23:33:14 <oerjan> and for _some_ things, only Gregor can.
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23:34:12 <dulla> does it send multiple requests from different locations?
23:34:31 <dulla> I know a free proxy view site
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23:35:01 <dulla> it's a great way to get around robot.txt
23:35:11 <oerjan> anyway, i consider the tests conclusive enough for the moment.
23:36:12 <oerjan> also, Gregor while nominally more likely to be awake, also has a history of being much less active here than fizzie.
23:37:41 <dulla> sounds like having an invisible pink unicorn in a world that only has unicorns, and no invisibility capabilities
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23:56:34 <Phantom_Hoover> is the best way to do that not to just... ignore robots.txt?
23:56:55 <dulla> this is what you need to do with third-parties that respect robot.txt