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00:59:58 <tswett> So, some notions of a "theory" admit a notion of a "free model" and some of them don't.
01:00:30 <tswett> Suppose that by "theory" we mean "variety of algebras". I'm pretty sure a variety of algebras always has a free model.
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01:01:22 <tswett> It's just the collection of all equivalence classes of constant expressions, where two expressions are equivalent if the axioms require them to be equal.
01:02:33 <tswett> First-order logic doesn't admit a notion of a free model, though.
01:02:48 <ais523> can anyone here think of a good use for the lda ($*,x) (where * is any 8-bit integer) instruction in 6502 assembler?
01:02:51 <tswett> You can do the Henkin construction, but the Henkin construction requires making a lot of arbitrary choices.
01:02:59 <tswett> (But not, conveniently enough, the axiom of choice.)
01:03:25 <tswett> ais523: well, what does that do?
01:04:04 <ais523> tswett: it's basically equivalent to *(c[X]) in C, where c is a constant pointer and X is a register; however, the resulting address has to be in the first 256 bytes of memory
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01:05:36 <tswett> So c is an immediate value and X is the value in a register?
01:06:21 <ais523> the problem being that you can't really use this as an array of pointers because you have to put it in a particularly valuable bit of memory
01:06:21 <zzo38> ais523: As far as I remember I have not used that addressing mode
01:06:32 <ais523> zzo38: neither have I, and I've written some 6502 assembler too
01:06:45 <zzo38> Although if I find it useful I might to do so
01:06:48 <ais523> (also I'm not surprised you've worked on 6502 asm, although technically your statement doesn't imply that you have)
01:07:17 <tswett> I don't quite remember all my addressing modes.
01:07:25 <zzo38> I have worked on 6502 asm, and what I have used is several unofficial opcodes, but not that
01:08:14 <ais523> what did the unofficial opcodes do?
01:08:24 <ais523> IIRC they're mostly random mixes of intended opcodes
01:08:57 <zzo38> There are many, for example ANC #immediate will act like AND #imm but also copies the high bit to the carry flag.
01:09:47 <zzo38> LAX will load into both A and X register, but the immediate form of this opcode is unstable so I don't use the immediate mode. (6502: Even the bugs have bugs.)
01:10:04 <ais523> ANC looks like a pretty useful opcode
01:10:11 <ais523> although presumably it works differently on different 6502s
01:11:03 <zzo38> On different version any unofficial opcode may fail, but it works on an actual 6502.
01:11:32 <zzo38> (However, what I am programming for isn't quite an actual 6502; it is an actual 6502 with a few traces cut so that decimal mode won't work.)
01:12:55 <zzo38> This is what it does on Famicom, and now Famicom VM is defined to do those things (although the purpose of unofficial opcodes wasn't defined before Super Nintendo was released, as far as I understand).
01:13:13 <ais523> I'm thinking mostly about NES right now, which is quite similar to Famicom
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01:13:50 <zzo38> Yes, it is quite similar and the same CPU, APU, and PPU is in use too (except PAL NES)
01:14:10 <zzo38> The SED and CLD therefore, will still affect the decimal flag, but this flag does nothing except that it is visible when the flags are pushed to the stack.
01:15:56 <zzo38> What stuff have you written 6502 codes for?
01:17:17 <ais523> I was writing for the BBC Micro
01:17:25 <ais523> BBC Micro B, specifically
01:17:28 <ais523> it had a BASIC interpreter in ROM
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01:21:25 <zzo38> I think I have once worked with an emulator that emulates BBC Micro, although I didn't know much about the features specific to its BASIC interpreter
01:22:46 <ais523> it also had an assembler in ROM
01:26:03 <zzo38> O, it did? I didn't know that either
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01:35:14 <oren> its_some_kind_of_elvish_i_cant_read_it.jpg
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01:36:30 <oren> hm... what country is .za
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01:39:03 <oren> I searched for "ya feks" and i got some stuff from .za, .su, and .ru
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01:40:27 <Jafet> The national TLDs for Zouth Africa, Sumeria and Ruritania.
01:40:29 <Sketra> ya feks is a more toned down version
01:41:12 <oren> I see... south africa, soviet union, and russia
01:41:51 <Sketra> What country do you live in oren
01:42:57 <oren> Canada is only fun in the winter
01:43:20 <Sketra> Burned sanfransico down
01:43:36 <Sketra> It seems very likely someone will do it
01:43:49 <oren> uh... san francisco is in America
01:44:16 <Sketra> I never implied I was talking about Canada...
01:44:41 <oren> Uh... So why would you burn san francisco donw?
01:45:36 <oren> Also that already happened in 1906
01:45:47 <oren> By an earthquake
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01:48:07 <oren> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/San_Francisco_in_ruin_edit2.jpg
01:49:24 <Sketra> their fault for building on a fault
01:49:49 <ais523> this conversation is surprisingly offtopic even for this channel
01:50:14 <Sketra> You know what else is a surprise
01:50:24 <ais523> unless destroying cities is somehow Turing-complete, and I don't think we can manage that due to only having finitely many cities
01:50:58 <Sketra> No one can arrest me if they are all on fire ais253
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01:51:23 <ais523> seriously, though? can't you find something more appropriate to talk about?
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01:52:07 <Sketra> I wish irc had some sort of msg delete system but its just really a real time logging system
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01:52:54 <Sketra> Do you want a kitty ais253
01:53:44 <Sketra> How was your day then?
01:54:51 <Sketra> I can make faces with this language ㅎ-ㅎ
01:54:55 <ais523> I slept in, then spent the afternoon thinking about my job, and got some useful advice from #esoteric
01:55:49 <zzo38> I think IRC doesn't need some kind of msg delete system
01:56:21 <Sketra> Think of how useful that would be though
01:56:37 <oren> I went to work with my project group at school, but I didn't do anything
01:56:47 <Sketra> If you ban someone it delete all there messages
01:57:23 <ais523> anyone could remember that the message had been said, though
01:57:42 <ais523> even if you delete all electronic copies, you're not going to delete them from the minds of the recipients
01:57:44 <zzo38> You can, however, parse the logs and filter out any messages of people you don't want (whether because they are banned or for another reason)
01:57:44 <oren> I spent the time helping the artists get their files into the repository and reading manga
01:58:17 <Sketra> They'll forget within days
01:58:49 <Sketra> Seeing a string of insulting text upon a LCD won't be remembered for long my Good sir
01:59:12 <ais523> for some reason my first thought in reply to that was "I'll have to get a CRT"
01:59:20 <ais523> I might have the wrong attitude for this conversation…
01:59:28 <oren> Well what if I enable logging on my client
01:59:52 <zzo38> I believe in freedom of speech
02:00:03 <oren> Right. Freedom of speech
02:00:34 <oren> You can say what you want, but you can't stop people from reacting to what you say
02:00:52 <ais523> unless the reaction is illegal in its own right
02:00:53 <Sketra> I cannot detect attitude over the internet
02:01:29 <oren> ais523: I was thinking of verbal reactions, but yeah
02:01:34 <ais523> well, in my case, assume that I'm intentionally trying to push conversations into the absurd in an attempt to derail them
02:01:55 <Sketra> http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1375919!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/aquaweb19f-3-web.jpg
02:01:57 <zzo38> oren: Well, yes, although you should still be allowed to keep it recorded; other people should be allowed to write comment/complaint on it too though
02:01:59 <ais523> (at least for offtopic conversations; with ontopic conversations, pushing them into the absurd is normally impossible because they're already there)
02:02:12 <Sketra> What are turing machines
02:02:15 <oren> I have a CRT in my basement that we are not allowed to throw out
02:02:33 <ais523> Sketra: basically it's a computational model
02:02:42 <ais523> here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Turing_machine
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02:03:01 <Sketra> Sorry but the esolangs wiki is infinitely loading for me
02:03:01 <ais523> or I guess the Wikipedia article is probably better
02:03:05 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
02:03:10 <oren> underwater bicycles?
02:03:23 <Sketra> All wiki pages are infinite load
02:03:48 <oren> the picture sketra linked to. underwater bicycles
02:03:58 <Sketra> oren its illegal in California to ride your bycicle in a pool
02:04:03 <ais523> oh right, I'm not used to people following links
02:04:25 <oren> I didn't technically follow it. I wgot it
02:04:43 <Sketra> ais253 What would you gain from pushing topic into absurdity its human nature to reply to dumb topics
02:05:01 <zzo38> Why should you want to ride a bicycle underwater anyways?
02:05:15 <oren> To avoid getting sweaty?
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02:05:24 <Sketra> Try for a more reasonable approach such as "Lets talk about Programming" would be ofc a better example
02:05:35 <Sketra> zzo38 Twice the exercise
02:05:39 <ais523> I've found it one way to try to moderate a channel without having to ban anyone
02:05:45 <ais523> another method is to have some ontopic conversations ready
02:05:51 <ais523> and to start them up with someone you know will join in
02:05:59 <ais523> but that's hard to do at ~2am UTC
02:06:05 <ais523> (easier than at ~6am UTC though)
02:06:09 <Sketra> Go to sleep my dear sir
02:06:23 <Sketra> Fix your sleep schedule
02:06:54 <zzo38> It seem like it will be difficult to try to ride a bicycle underwater, but you can try, but nevertheless try to be careful please
02:07:19 <zzo38> ais523: What timezone are you at though? And, what timezone other people at, too?
02:07:32 <ais523> zzo38: perhaps an underwater exercise bicycle would make for a better, or at least different, exercise experience
02:07:41 <ais523> and the country I'm currently living in is currently at UTC+0
02:07:50 <Sketra> its 6:08pm I don't do time zones
02:08:12 <Sketra> I just read the clock you can figure it out yourself
02:08:30 <ais523> that normally indicates the western edge of the US, although there are other possibilities
02:08:46 <Sketra> The forthmost answer is correct
02:09:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, at least it would make a different kind of exercise; it would do that at least.
02:09:42 <Sketra> Zzo38 it would be best to strap them to the bottom and have straps on the peddles
02:09:55 <zzo38> You don't do timezones?
02:10:34 <zzo38> You could use solar time, but that isn't quite the same use on the clock and on computer etc
02:10:35 <ais523> I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200
02:11:02 <zzo38> Why do you need timezones in NetHack?
02:11:02 <ais523> basically because I thought there might be a potential for DST-related exploits (like there are in second-gen Pokémon games)
02:11:11 <ais523> because some monsters are more dangerous at night
02:11:27 <ais523> it probably also affects moon phases, although I'm not sure that it should
02:11:44 <oren> I am in -0500 according to date
02:12:07 <ais523> that most commonly implies eastern US
02:12:11 <Sketra> on my client it lists me as being in 2:15 Pm 11/19/1947
02:12:26 <ais523> hmm, that's a weird time
02:12:37 <ais523> I wonder if it's 32-bit INT_MIN interpreted as a date
02:13:00 <Sketra> Internal clock must have goofed
02:13:41 <ais523> $ date -d @-2147483648
02:13:42 <ais523> Fri Dec 13 20:45:52 GMT 1901
02:14:12 <oren> 2038 is the max
02:14:42 <Sketra> I think my client runs off my computers internal clock
02:14:45 <oren> yes. in 2038 unix date times willneed to be 64 bit
02:15:19 <Sketra> I may have been messing with time setting ealier and fell asleep before I fixed them
02:15:23 <ais523> oren: I ran into that problem already
02:15:31 <ais523> when giving one of the traditional 24-year bans on the wiki
02:15:40 <ais523> but apparently it got fixed by a wiki upgrade
02:16:08 <Sketra> Why would you ban for 24 years
02:16:20 <Sketra> I'm usually devastated when I'm banned from sites
02:16:54 <ais523> it's not bans for humans
02:17:09 <Sketra> I ran into a spam bot once
02:17:14 <MDude> Enough to have them banned for one day if they spend it in some kind of time chamber.
02:17:37 <ais523> I used to run into them a lot, but the spam filters and CAPTCHA on the wiki have been holding recently
02:17:49 <Sketra> Also how do spam bots spam on the wiki
02:18:02 <ais523> same way a human would spam on the wiki: create account, create a page, put spam there
02:18:14 <ais523> except that the spambots have the huge disadvantage that they haven't figured out newlines yet
02:18:20 <ais523> which makes them quite easy to automatically detect
02:18:47 <ais523> basically, they make a page using entirely <br> or <br /> as line breaks
02:18:56 <ais523> rather than two newlines, which is the way most humans do line breaks
02:19:51 <Sketra> I may be a bot -///- You just never know what humans can make up
02:20:16 <MDude> Exactly, you could be spying to find out the secret of newlines.
02:20:46 <Sketra> I just told you I would be devastated if I got banned
02:20:49 <ais523> MDude: actually, one of the most damaging things you can do to spammers is to waste their time
02:21:27 <ais523> because spam has pretty tight margins, especially when humans get involved
02:21:31 <Sketra> What was the most catastrophic thing to happen to esolangs
02:21:59 <ais523> the server's been moved a few times
02:22:07 <ais523> and the site's been down during server moves
02:22:23 <ais523> also, it's not technically the wiki, but as the topic says, fungot is trapped in a house with no internet
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02:23:59 <Sketra> good thing this went from setting people on fire to underwater bycicles to turing machines to spam bot protection
02:27:05 <Sketra> I'm off to do some deeds
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02:34:33 <zzo38> Do you like to make up "Phyrexian Nix" card of Magic: the Gathering?
02:35:12 <zzo38> There is a "Nix" card in Future Sight, but now we can make up the Phyrexian version?
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03:37:43 <MDude> Looking up reversible computing terms, what I'm trying to do seems fairly similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rc-table.png
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03:43:11 <zzo38> OK, but what does the "v@ = w;" and "v = @w;" stuff means there? It says "constructive assignment" but I still don't quite know
03:49:33 <MDude> I'm not entirely sure.
03:49:51 <MDude> By constructive it means reversible, though.
03:51:11 <MDude> Probably I'll just stick with making the language I was going to and look into whatever this idea was later.
03:57:42 <MDude> I'll try to get back to this in the morning now that I've started writing things down.
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05:24:33 <oren> Hmm... it would help considerably if matlab would tell me how long a computation is going to take.
05:27:45 <ais523> I get the impression that Matlab is terribly coded internally
05:27:59 <ais523> e.g. at one point Simulink started giving me incorrect answers, then crashed
05:28:30 <ais523> zzo38: I always thought Nix was overcosted; that's an interesting way of making it cheaper
05:28:39 <ais523> but it would probably be overpowered in Vintage (and unplayable elsewhere)
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05:44:52 <oren> grr... cp with one argument should copy it into the current directory
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06:00:10 <ais523> you can give . as the second argument
06:02:28 <oren> i know but i'm lazy
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06:04:11 <oren> 出来た！ https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor
06:07:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I thought that too
06:10:10 <oren> I decided to start putting things online so i can reference them
06:10:23 <zzo38> That it seems like might be a bit overcosted
06:11:50 <zzo38> Still, I don't know how overpowered it would be in Vintage though; I'm not completely sure, nevertheless it might work if restricted in Vintage
06:12:15 <zzo38> (Someone else told me the name "Phyrexian Nix" isn't good enough because it has two "X"s in it)
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06:13:29 <oren> should it have fewer or more?
06:14:12 <zzo38> They said two is too many, apparently
06:14:42 <zzo38> But, I just made up the name to be descriptive; I don't actually know if it would be the proper name or not.
06:15:41 <oren> phairekzian nicks
06:16:18 <oren> wait... doesn't "nix" mean snow in Latin?
06:16:55 <zzo38> I don't know, but nevertheless it isn't what I was refering to.
06:17:14 <zzo38> But if you understand Latin, then perhaps you can know.
06:19:20 <oren> hmm i was right, but the card is just named for the english word
06:22:05 <oren> so a phyrexian nix would cost 1 unstead of U?
06:23:23 <zzo38> No, it would cost one blue mana or two life
06:48:27 <Sgeo> How likely is a phone to catch fire if it sustained arbitrary saltwater+fall damage?
06:49:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GOTO 10]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42090 * Qpliu * (+3052) Add GOTO 10
06:50:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42091&oldid=42068 * Qpliu * (+14) /* G */ Add GOTO 10
06:51:32 <oren> Hmm... i think it would depend on whether it was fully charged or not
06:53:29 <Sgeo> It seems to be fully charged now
06:53:33 <Sgeo> It's working, apparently
06:53:40 <Sgeo> I'm just wondering if using it is a terminally bad idea
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07:05:22 <oren> salt water can cause the batteries to short-circuit but if that hasn't happened then i doubt it will
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07:05:46 <oren> I would clean it with alcohol though
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07:13:32 <zzo38> What does "Hocus pocus Domi Nocus" mean?
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07:31:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i long ago read "hocus pocus" a corruption of the latin eucharist, although i now see there are other theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hocus_Pocus_(magic)#.E2.80.98Dog.E2.80.99_Latin , domi nocus could be a corruption of "dominus", Lord.
07:51:25 <ais523> btw, it's ais523 lawful good day today
07:51:32 <ais523> I was thinking about not mentioning it and seeing if anyone noticed
07:51:37 <ais523> but that wouldn't be very lawful of me
07:52:10 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
07:55:04 <ais523> strangely enough, the lawful part seems harder
07:56:36 <oerjan> that's because laws are actually evil hth
07:57:20 <oerjan> NA NA NA NA NOT LISTENING TO YOUR EVIL RATIONALIZATION
07:58:09 <ais523> I meant "it didn't really help", but it isn't really true either
07:58:15 <ais523> they're tools that can be used for both good and evil
07:58:22 <zzo38> Laws aren't necessarily evil.
08:02:17 <zzo38> Although, it can sometimes be...
08:02:25 <oerjan> what is that strange bright white thing reflecting in the neighbors' window
08:02:40 <oerjan> is it the fabled daystar
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08:40:44 <zzo38> I don't know; you would have to look by yourself
08:44:27 <oerjan> but it's too bright to look at!
08:56:49 <Taneb> Happy lawful good day, ais523
08:58:06 <myname> what the hell is a lawful good day?
08:58:45 <ais523> "lawful good" is an "alignment" classification in the roleplaying game dungeons & dragons
08:58:49 <ais523> it's a little hard to define well
08:59:07 <ais523> and according to the learndb, I'm lawful good on march 2
08:59:45 <myname> somebody defined it for you?
08:59:55 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
09:00:04 <ais523> I suspect it was in response to something I mentioned
09:00:09 <ais523> not sure if it was me who physically added it
09:00:14 <ais523> but I tend towards lawful good most of the time anyway
09:00:30 <ais523> I mean, I don't /feel/ that lawful, but I tend to see pretty much everyone else as chaotic
09:00:38 <ais523> so I suspect I just have a skewed viewpoint
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09:01:54 <myname> that sounds pretty normal for an alien
09:02:24 <Taneb> I seem to have ended up flitting around the good alignments
09:03:16 <ais523> I think ng/cg are probably the most common alignments in real life
09:04:04 <myname> i want to be chaotic neutral
09:05:24 <ais523> I don't think it's impossible to live with a CN character
09:05:30 <ais523> but their carelessness can put people in danger
09:05:56 <myname> as long as it's not me
09:06:40 <Taneb> myname, you are bad in my viewpoint because you contradict my sense of morality
09:07:02 <ais523> negligence is illegal for a reason
09:07:13 <ais523> (and a good reason, at that)
09:14:20 <oerjan> <ais523> I implemented timezones in NetHack 4 a while back, it allows you to specify any 15-minute offset from UTC up to (IIRC) +/- 1200 <-- what do you have against the samoans
09:14:42 <ais523> oerjan: that's what the IIRC was for
09:14:50 <ais523> I'd consider opening the range a bit further for that
09:15:02 <ais523> however, if it's too wide, people can use it to dodge inconvenient calendar days
09:15:49 <oerjan> nethack depends on days?
09:16:00 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about moon though
09:16:20 <ais523> the only thing the timezone even matters for is realtime-dependent things
09:16:47 <elliott> are the existing timezones
09:17:15 <ais523> oh, my current range is -13 to +13
09:17:23 <elliott> that's both too strict and too loose
09:17:26 <ais523> let me see if I can change that without invalidating existing saves
09:17:38 <elliott> also, I think there are a few not on 15-minute boundaries
09:17:48 <ais523> not even 15-minute boundaries?
09:18:16 <elliott> looks like 30 and 45 minutes are the oddest ones
09:18:33 <elliott> (I mean, for the minute fields)
09:18:54 <ais523> <ais523> (if I've missed a country near the dateline or one with a weird offset, let me know)
09:18:57 <ais523> yep, I should change this
09:20:26 <Taneb> I should get into NetHack
09:22:05 <ais523> I'll help you learn NetHack if I have spare time and am online at the same time as you, if you like
09:22:54 <Taneb> myname, I do play Dwarf Fortress
09:23:16 <Taneb> ais523, thank you, but I have a lecture in 42 minutes and I am still in my pyjamas
09:23:26 <ais523> right, the offer didn't necessarily imply right now
09:23:39 <ais523> (I assume this is not the sort of lecture that could reasonably be attended in pyjamas)
09:23:39 <Taneb> Maybe some other time
09:24:03 <Taneb> (it's the sort of lecture that no-one has tried to attend in pyjamas, although I could probably get away with it)
09:24:09 <myname> nethack is way easier than df
09:24:10 <ais523> who should I credit for this timezone range fix? #esoteric as a whole?
09:24:19 <ais523> myname: well DF doesn't actually have a victory condition
09:24:25 <ais523> so they're quite hard to compare for difficulty in that respect
09:24:27 <Taneb> (the issue is that it is 2.7 degrees outside and the lecture is a mile's walk away)
09:24:30 <ais523> NetHack's interface is better, neither is great
09:24:51 <myname> i meant difficulty in terms of learning to play it
09:24:52 <ais523> myname: Fun is probably easier in NetHack than DF, admittedly
09:25:07 <ais523> I can't think of a way to creatively suicide in DF /quite/ as fast as you can in NetHack
09:26:12 <ais523> this doesn't really need crediting at all, I guess
09:26:19 <ais523> but it feels wrong to not mention credit on lawful good day
09:26:30 <ais523> gah, I'm going to be stuck with this sort of dilemma all day, aren't I?
09:26:33 <Taneb> The last time I tried to play NetHack, I drank from a fountain and then there were snakes everywhere
09:27:14 <myname> i mess up sokoban way to often
09:27:24 <ais523> hmm, I'm going to say "well don't do that then", rather than the typical reaction along the lines of "YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED, DIRTY FOUNTAIN QUAFFER"
09:28:24 <ais523> Taneb: well don't do that then
09:28:29 <oerjan> ais523: just credit it to me hth
09:28:31 <Taneb> ais523, I will bear that in mind
09:28:50 <ais523> bleh, I suspect I'm being trolled
09:29:01 <ais523> I'll credit it to you if you like, though
09:29:05 <ais523> (does elliott want credit too?)
09:29:26 <oerjan> you can write my name as "Ørjan Johansen, my Lord and Master" hth
09:29:45 <ais523> there are other ways to write your name too
09:29:50 <ais523> elliott: for the NH4 timezone change
09:29:55 <oerjan> (just trying to remove all suspicion here)
09:30:31 <ais523> OK, I think this solves my issue
09:30:38 <oerjan> of course i won't complain much if you countertroll by taking me literally
09:30:56 <ais523> besides, it lets me fit more non-ASCII characters into the commit log
09:31:07 <ais523> but I think I'll leave the bit after the comma off, it seems inappropriate
09:31:16 <oerjan> on reflection, i think counter-troll needs a hyphen
09:31:46 <Taneb> I should start writing my surname "van D∞m"
09:32:08 <ais523> I doubt most spellcheckers would recognise it without the -
09:32:13 <ais523> on the other hand, language has a tendency to evolve
09:32:26 <ais523> the #esoteric version would probably use a diaeresis despite the fact that diaereses don't work like that
09:32:54 <HackEgo> [U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D] [U+221E INFINITY] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M]
09:33:07 <ais523> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN
09:33:17 <coppro> ais523: cöunter-troll?
09:33:18 <ais523> that's what I expected
09:33:27 <ais523> coppro: that'd be pronounced "co-unter troll"
09:33:28 <oerjan> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER RN
09:33:46 <ais523> which is quite a neat word, but which would sound noticeably different
09:33:49 <coppro> ais523: well if you want to get technical, the diaresis should be on the u, I dunno how that's pronounced
09:33:57 <oerjan> we need boily here as the diäëresis authority
09:34:59 <ais523> diaeresis basically just puts a syllable break between two vowels, causing them to be pronounced individually
09:35:11 <ais523> back when I was young, it was still mentioned in some books that taught English
09:35:38 <Taneb> Outside of this channel I've only seen in it in some variations of the name Zoe
09:35:40 <ais523> I have a theory that it was driven almost to extinction by the use of ASCII-based computers (and also printing presses and typewriters to some extent, but those are better at them)
09:35:59 <ais523> Taneb: right, Zoë and Noël were probably the most common uses at the time
09:36:15 <ais523> (oë is pronounced "oh-ee", as expected)
09:36:39 <Taneb> But now I see that quite often without diaereses
09:36:40 <coppro> Taneb: don't forget the Encyclopædia Britannica
09:36:43 <oerjan> the co-unter trolls, coënslaving the coübertrolls
09:37:06 <Taneb> oerjan, the categoric dual of übertrolls?
09:37:28 <coppro> ais523: that and the fact that it's really inadequate in modern English
09:37:31 <ais523> oerjan: I'm genuinely impressed at the way you managed to work "uber"/"über" in there, leaving it ambiguous
09:37:31 <Taneb> Or are they trolls that are coüber
09:38:40 <coppro> due to loanwords and calques, and the rarity of two consecutive vowel sounds, it really isn't that good
09:39:09 <ais523> I think the main issue is that the hyphen is normally pretty suitable, it serves almost the same purpose in that context
09:39:10 <Taneb> coppro, how uncooperative and unscientific of you
09:39:33 <coppro> I don't like the hyphen
09:39:46 <coppro> I prefer coöperate to co-operate, where ambiguous
09:40:06 <Taneb> Hmm, I actually pronounce "science" with the same vowel sound as "fire"
09:40:57 <ais523> "co-operate" looks like it has a meaning of "to operate alongside with"
09:41:06 <ais523> "the co-pilot is responsible for co-operating the plane"
09:42:04 <Taneb> I'll need to recooperate after this discussion
09:42:22 <coppro> it doens't help that no native english speaker reasonably expects to be able to pronounce the vowels in a word based on its spelling
09:42:42 <ais523> do any non-native english speakers expect that after a little experience?
09:42:51 <ais523> and I don't think the situation's quite that bad
09:42:56 <ais523> some words don't follow a pattern, but many do
09:43:22 <coppro> there are enough common exceptions to break things, though
09:43:30 <coppro> like 'though' and 'through'
09:43:45 <Taneb> coppro, that's tough
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09:44:08 <Taneb> Someone ought to fix that
09:44:27 <ais523> I'm not sure anyone has the power; and if anyone did, they would probably get in trouble for using it that way
09:44:43 <coppro> also some variants of thorough
09:44:56 <Taneb> ais523, not if they're thorough
09:45:13 <coppro> I'm pretty sure some speakers will use five different vowels for those five words
09:46:37 <Taneb> coppro, I think there are 10 or 11 different ways
09:46:58 <ais523> hmm, I pronounce the vowels as though = show, through = who, tough = stuff, trough = cloth (although the final consonant is slightly different), and thorough has two vowels but the second seems to be a neutral er
09:47:09 <ais523> but I'm having problems thinking of a word with a neutral er in right now
09:47:35 <ais523> slightly weaker than the second vowel in "partner" I guess
09:48:37 <ais523> yeah, that's close enough
09:48:43 <ais523> possibly /too/ neutral though
09:48:45 <coppro> ais523: yeah, those match mine
09:48:50 <ais523> bleh, English is so variable
09:48:59 <Taneb> I love how "banana" has three vowels with the same letter and three different pronunciations
09:48:59 <ais523> coppro: and yet, your accident is unlikely to match mine, due to the nationality difference
09:49:27 <coppro> welcome to linguistics
09:49:28 <Taneb> ais523, I highly doubt our accents match very much, or even me and elliott
09:49:54 <coppro> for me, the word "thorough" rhymes with "full"
09:50:07 <ais523> you mean matching vowels? or an actual rhyme?
09:50:08 <coppro> with a slightly weaker, but still audible, l sound
09:51:15 <Taneb> I should really get dressed and leave soon
09:51:33 <ais523> barring someone with founder status going crazy, #esoteric will still be here when you get back
09:52:00 <ais523> hmm, and the founder status apparently belongs to freenode-staff
09:52:23 <ais523> a little surprising, you'd expect it to either belong to one of the channel regulars, or belong to someone who hasn't been seen for years
09:52:37 <Taneb> Maybe the original founder was deregistered
09:52:52 <zzo38> I made a Magic: the Gathering puzzle.2 but it still has some things wrong with it; I have thought of a few things to try to fix it, though, but I can tell you what is wrong. I need to ensure that if you have bad luck, you cannot win the subgame, and that opponent is able to get the chance to cast Golden Wish on the turn after you have controlled him, but not during that turn.
09:57:30 <zzo38> But that nevertheless you can still win the main game regardless of how the cards are shuffled in the subgame, who goes first in the subgame, or how much your opponent mulligans during the subgame.
09:58:21 <ais523> zzo38: in that case, why wouldn't you just concede the subgame?
09:58:23 <ais523> rather than playing it out?
09:58:47 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering how the changes to the Wish rules affect subgames
09:59:10 <ais523> can you wish for main game cards from the subgame? and can you riftsweeper in main game cards from the subgame?
10:06:05 <b_jonas> wait... Riftsweeper is another card with the ability of Pull from Eternity? I thought they made only one such card, even in the block with suspend
10:07:03 <b_jonas> and in green too... strange
10:07:16 <b_jonas> I thought this would be a white or blue ability only
10:07:21 <ais523> it's a creature rather than an instant/sorcery
10:07:35 <b_jonas> I guess it's understandible because green gets to recycle all types of cards from the graveyard
10:07:45 <oerjan> Taneb: i remember the founder used to be someone with a greek-sounding nick
10:08:38 <zzo38> ais523: This puzzle http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 you can't win by just conceding the subgame
10:08:41 <oerjan> and they indeed got deregistered, which isn't surprising given they'd been gone for years
10:08:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that was it
10:09:12 <zzo38> And I believe that the rules allow you to take cards from anywhere in the main game as if they were in your sideboard; someone else confirmed this.
10:09:31 <zzo38> (I'm not sure what happens with exiled face-down cards you own but aren't allowed to look at.)
10:09:49 <ais523> somehow I feel that makes it a little less elegant
10:09:55 <ais523> also, the rules used to say that
10:10:05 <ais523> but they changed a few years ago, and I don't know if the new rules still say that
10:10:18 <zzo38> It was the newest rules that I studied.
10:10:30 <zzo38> And that I asked about.
10:11:08 <b_jonas> ok wait, which white card exiles creatures and says in the flavor text that they don't use death penalty?
10:12:34 <zzo38> The current rules prohibit you from taking exiled cards from the current game as if they were in your sideboard, but does allow taking them from exile zone in a game that this is a subgame of, as if they were in your sideboard.
10:13:34 <ais523> b_jonas: swords to plowshares, path to exile, oust are the best-known white exilers
10:13:39 <ais523> wait, oust doesn't exile
10:13:44 <ais523> probably path to exile
10:15:21 <b_jonas> ais523: hehe, those are the ones the most used in competitions, but to me Unamake, Oblivion Ring, Journey to Nowhere, and some blinkers are more familiar
10:16:52 <zzo38> You can't just concede the subgame immediately because the point of entering the subgame isn't just to half your life total, to shuffle anyone's library, or to look at the cards in your library (which you already know anyways). Opponent can't concede because then he would lose the main game too.
10:18:00 <ais523> zzo38: well, suppose you enter the subgame
10:18:04 <ais523> and your opponent gets first turn
10:18:11 <ais523> then you immediately lose it due to drawing from an empty library
10:18:33 <b_jonas> can't you still cast instants before that?
10:18:41 <ais523> yes but you have no cards in hand
10:18:48 <b_jonas> you lose when drawing your initial hand?
10:18:48 <ais523> you start the subgame with an empty library
10:18:59 <b_jonas> oh, it's so empty you don't even get your starting 7 cards
10:19:02 <b_jonas> lose while you're drawing those
10:19:03 <ais523> I assumed either you wouldn't lose, or you could avoid losing via mulliganing to 0
10:19:06 <ais523> I think we need a judge for this
10:19:14 <b_jonas> no, I think it's in the rules
10:19:20 <zzo38> You can lose when drawing your initial hand (well, just afterward; you won't lose until someone gets priority); even if you mulligan, I think.
10:19:24 <ais523> you could possibly pull it off in Conspiracy too
10:19:34 <ais523> via running eight "reduce minimum deck size" conspiracies
10:19:36 <zzo38> But that won't happen if you solve the puzzle correctly...
10:19:57 <ais523> you'd need to put more cards into your library first, then, I guess
10:21:40 <ais523> I'm not actually trying to solve the puzzle
10:23:11 <zzo38> The fact that there is no mana burn in the current rules is important because otherwise you might lose due to mana burn, I think
10:23:47 <b_jonas> yes, look Shahrazad even has a ruling
10:23:55 <b_jonas> "At the start of the sub-game both players draw their initial hand (usually 7 cards). If one player has fewer cards than required, that player loses. If both have fewer than required, both players lose."
10:24:20 <b_jonas> that might be obsolate, btu I think the first part still applies
10:24:28 <b_jonas> because the rules definitely say you _draw_ seven cards
10:24:41 <zzo38> Some of the rulings for other cards are disputed, although I do not dispute this one.
10:25:15 <zzo38> That specific ruling looks correct to me.
10:25:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, some of them are definitely obsolate because the rules have changed since
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12:06:32 <Jafet> Tough, trough, though, through, thorough, dough, plough, hiccough
12:08:08 <Jafet> Oh wait, dough isn't unique
12:16:15 <boily> Jafellot. why so much matinal suffering.
12:18:13 <b_jonas> Jafet: wait, I have a list
12:18:37 <b_jonas> here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_Englishhttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Pronounciation_of_-ough_in_English
12:18:43 <b_jonas> how many there are depends on the dialect
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14:16:56 <Taneb> Well, I made it to that lecture
14:17:01 <Taneb> It was a very useful lecture
14:17:08 <Taneb> I registered to vote during it
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14:20:35 <ais523> presumably not in pyjamas
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14:22:25 <Taneb> No, it was cold outside
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15:45:26 <myname> is there any befunge-like language for more than two dimensions?
15:45:50 <ais523> I'm not sure it's been generalized past two though
15:46:23 <myname> it'd be possible using gifs or the like, but i don't know any
15:46:59 <ais523> trefunge uses formfeed to separate planes, just like befunge uses newline to separate lines
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15:49:25 <gamemanj> That must be a pain to program in.
15:49:41 <gamemanj> You'd need a special editor to know that stuff actually lined up.
15:51:20 <ais523> I think Befunge IDEs exist, don't know if they generalise to Trefunge
15:56:24 <ais523> Unefunge is a fun language too
15:56:37 <ais523> even if it's basically just a subset of Befunge where you don't have to specify y coordinates
15:56:55 <myname> is unefunge proven to be tc?
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16:03:03 <ais523> I'm pretty sure unefunge-98 is (assuming at least one fingerprint that gives access to infinite memory in a non-insane way)
16:03:08 <ais523> (or even cetain insane ways)
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20:15:45 <Soni> regex meets brainfuck: https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/36d2ccf875ea025c8fe5
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20:21:34 <elliott> wait, where's the brainfuck? >.>
20:23:18 <Soni> I meant it's made to be very simple
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20:24:48 <elliott> I kinda think of regexps as regexps meets brainfuck already
20:24:54 <elliott> especially in the readability department
20:25:11 <Soni> that's what using % to escape stuff instead of \ solves
20:25:15 <Soni> (see also lua patterns)
20:27:10 <Soni> \\\\\\\\ vs \\\\ (or with "raw strings" just \\)
20:29:38 <elliott> I mean not counting additional string quoting there
20:29:50 <elliott> though it's horrible to write regexps in languages where you have to use normal string syntax for it yeah
20:31:13 <Soni> (abc|def) is clunky, Lua's issue of not being able to do [a-%%] is also clunky
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20:31:38 <Soni> I solve both while keeping it simple
20:32:32 <Soni> and ofc I also support being able to put [] inside [] (which's just silly but w/e)
20:32:43 <elliott> it's just a composition of (...) and |
20:32:52 <elliott> (you can actually do foo|bar at the top-level)
20:32:53 <Soni> things I'm lacking: anchors and precedence
20:33:06 <elliott> it's annoying how syntactic grouping without creating a match group is (?:...), though
20:33:14 <Soni> meh, [(foo)(bar)] parsing is easier to code
20:34:23 <Soni> I don't specify if groups are match groups or just syntactic groups
20:34:37 <elliott> (I mean in normal regexps)
20:34:40 <Soni> I guess that's what version 0.1 is for
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21:04:11 <oren> interesting fact: memmove is much slower than using memcpy with a scrap buffer.
21:05:23 <elliott> it would be kind of bad if a large memmove caused a large allocation I guess
21:05:35 <oren> I think that is what happens
21:06:35 <oren> And the memcpy is faster because the scrap buffer is allocated only once
21:07:02 <elliott> I seriously doubt that's what happens
21:07:28 <elliott> you just implement memmove by going backwards or whatever
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21:07:51 <oren> That is what I would do, but why would it be slower then?
21:08:00 <elliott> stuff about caches or whatever
21:08:01 <olsner> memmove typically needs to check which part of the buffer overlaps and then go forwards/backwards as apporpriate
21:08:15 <elliott> yeah but I doubt one branch makes that much difference
21:08:26 <elliott> unless oren is testing with really tiny n
21:09:02 <oren> my tests were in the context of https://github.com/orenwatson/jpeg_tailor
21:09:23 <oren> To remove one pixel from a scanline I copy the rest of the line back
21:10:06 <oren> So N is in [0,4K] or something
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21:15:38 <oren> Hm... Maybe something to do with SIMD instructions?
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21:33:05 <gamemanj> How esoteric would you define this to be?: http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/in.oshl
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21:34:53 <zzo38> In Pascal, SQL, and some versions of BASIC, there is no string escaping but you can make the string delimiter doubled to make quotations marks inside of the string.
21:36:10 <gamemanj> So what would happen if you had to output BASIC with "" in from a program written in BASIC? """"?
21:38:03 <b_jonas> gamemanj: you have to write it as PRINT CHR$(38)+CHR$(38)
21:40:24 <oren> I prefer hollerith
21:51:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Clip/Examples]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42092&oldid=42077 * Ypnypn * (+27) /* Quine */
22:04:13 <oren> 110 FORMAT (13HHello, World!)
22:04:29 <oren> 10 WRITE (*,110)
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22:26:00 <tswett> Hm. Assuming ZFC is consistent, it's possible to explicitly define a countable model of ZFC.
22:26:15 <tswett> It's not computable, but it's definable.
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22:32:47 <oren> Gah what is your definition of convenient?
22:33:37 <oren> What /would/ it take to make set theory computable
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22:41:09 <oren> Are there any programming languages where sets are a first class data type?
22:46:36 <oren> Hmm... It actually might be harder than i thought. you need some way of manipulating infinite sets without reifying them
22:49:37 <elliott> there's one or two on the wiki even
22:49:48 <elliott> also type theory is famous for doing this (though with types rather than sets, but)
22:50:08 <elliott> also there are constructive set theories. you can compute with them
22:50:12 <elliott> (depending on what you mean by "computing" though)
22:53:35 <oren> Hm... I guess I don't know what I mean by computing, except that calculators generally don't do it and computers do...
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22:54:48 <oren> I guess it's something to do with the complexity of the input versus the output?
22:57:26 <oren> Nah... more like, a "computer" has the ability to be programmed with new behaviour.
22:57:56 <oren> Whereas a calculator generally can't
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23:01:45 <oren> So a computer where there are no programming tools would IMO be just an advanced calculator, not a real computer
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23:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oren, so like... a smartphone is an advanced calculator?
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23:26:26 <oren> pretty much. Their behaviour is too closely linked to their input... Unless the game is minecraft or dwarf fortress etc.
23:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> 'their behaviour is too closely linked to their input' what does this even mean
23:45:26 <zzo38> I agree that a computer without programming tools won't be very good.
23:45:38 <zzo38> Any computer should include programming tools built-in.
23:48:47 <zzo38> Also there are programmable calculators too
23:50:02 <paul2520> that's how I first learned to program
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