00:01:19 <ais523> I'd better do that before NH4 is released
00:09:50 <elliott> GUID4 is the only one people actually use, I think...
00:10:09 <elliott> I forget what 3 and 5 are, though.
00:10:24 <elliott> I don't think it's a "GUID4" unless you're using (pseudo)random bits, though.
00:10:30 <elliott> (okay, a hash is like a PRNG with a very bad seed, or something.)
00:29:55 <ais523> elliott: 3 and 5 are the hash-based ones
00:30:14 <ais523> MD5 and SHA1 respectively
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00:31:12 <ais523> I used to use MD5 because it was the only hashing algorithm that worked with the oldest Perl version I supported
00:31:24 <ais523> in the end, I decided that that was just too awful, and dropped support for that version
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06:54:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42200&oldid=42198 * 81.102.250.85 * (+112) /* Duck Inputs */ Loop Ends
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08:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42201&oldid=42200 * 91.231.90.102 * (+0) /* How To Use */ Fixed /n.
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09:00:37 <mroman> What's this religious freedom bill?
09:00:42 <mroman> I can't seem to find the full text.
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09:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42202&oldid=42126 * Vriskanon * (+155) /* Examples */ Added Sollux's program to examples
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09:47:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42203&oldid=42199 * Vriskanon * (+92) /* Vriskanon */
09:47:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42204&oldid=42202 * Vriskanon * (+2158) Extrapolated a Tutorial
09:51:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42205&oldid=42204 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* Examples */ Changed Sollux program to be more accurate
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11:25:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42206&oldid=42205 * Vriskanon * (+1938) Added Bifurcation to the tutorial
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11:56:15 <b_jonas_> fungot, do you like murder mysteries?
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11:58:30 <fungot> mroman: does the small print is meant to make liftm f x a _function_. you can't.
11:59:03 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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13:09:56 <mroman> what was that other language beside rust?
13:15:37 <mroman> nvm i'll learn Rust next.
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13:52:34 <b_jonas> fungot, can you tell me about the conditional branch prediction and branch target prediction in modern CPUs?
13:52:35 <fungot> b_jonas: does formal semantics really matter?
13:53:01 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, it certainly does in this channel, for we want to abuse it
13:53:01 <fungot> b_jonas: to make it reality =d can you write anywhere?'
13:53:04 <ais523> hmm, I could easily interpret that line as being from someone other than fungot
13:53:04 <fungot> ais523: what is scan and are they the same? http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ gambit-list/ 2006-january/ 000540.html how'd you go about implementing an object system
13:53:20 <b_jonas> ais523: well, he does steal lines of others
13:53:22 <ais523> b_jonas: do you consider Pure BF an abuse of formal semantics?
13:54:54 <b_jonas> oh, I know what I wanted to ask you
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14:37:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Secretary]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42207&oldid=40984 * Vriskanon * (+8) Fixed Wingpad
14:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42208&oldid=42186 * Vriskanon * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added TillDeath
14:49:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hashes]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42209&oldid=39481 * Vriskanon * (+12) Fixed Name
14:50:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42210&oldid=32607 * Vriskanon * (+0) Fixed Name
14:50:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42211&oldid=42210 * Vriskanon * (-2)
14:52:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42212&oldid=38270 * Vriskanon * (-7) Fixed more names.
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15:18:32 <fungot> mroman: i just got up for a while before i can get away with optimizing whole programs to nothing.
15:19:15 <fungot> mroman: it can generate fortran code in any language other than english? dictionary doesn't know it! bwhaha! i'm just too fnord about it when scheme48 1.0 is in much more subtle.
15:19:35 <mroman> fungot: I'm so in subtle myself.
15:19:35 <fungot> mroman: a preprocessor for logic programming in haskell
15:20:05 <mroman> fungot: You should learn prolog.
15:20:06 <fungot> mroman: i'm workin' on it and i rewrite it for you? it tends to restart itself, and i'd like it
15:20:22 <mroman> Gee thanks. But you don't need to rewrite Prolog just for me <3
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15:55:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beatnik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42213&oldid=30345 * Marinus * (-9) fixed broken link
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16:11:19 <cpressey> that's too bad, there should really be an oerjan command
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17:06:28 <orin> what's the incantation to have ls show the size of a directory properly
17:07:11 <ais523> depends on what you mean by "properly"
17:07:27 <orin> I mean the total size of all files inside it, plus it
17:07:55 <ais523> ls can't do that because the information isn't stored anywhere, it has to be calculated and that's really timeconsuming
17:08:00 <ais523> the program you probably want is called du
17:08:14 <orin> god damn it, windows shows that information
17:08:38 <orin> does du also ahow size of fiels
17:08:42 <ais523> orin: Windows shows it in the GUI but takes a while to calculate it; I don't think dir (the equivalent of ls) shows it
17:08:53 <ais523> you can use "du -a" to show size of files too
17:09:06 <b_jonas> it's scary what crazy dangerous and complicated hooks some people in informatics will try to jump through for 20% performance increases
17:09:10 <cpressey> Windows shows it growing in the UI, with no indication of how far it's gotten yet, which is bad UX imo
17:09:22 <ais523> also, you might want to use "--apparent-size" if you care about the size of the files themselves, rather than the amount of disk they use u
17:09:27 <cpressey> because copying Windows is always a great idea
17:09:33 <ais523> or "-h" or "--si" to get the answer in sensible units
17:09:40 <ais523> cpressey: it's probably the lazy impl
17:11:13 <orin> so the incantation is "du -sh --apparent-size".
17:11:42 <ais523> depending on what it is you're trying to calculate, perhaps
17:11:51 <ais523> it has options because people don't always use it for the same purpose
17:11:57 <ais523> in particular, when I want to know the total size of a directory
17:12:04 <ais523> it's normally because I want to know how much disk space it costs me
17:12:08 <ais523> so I leave out --apparent-size
17:12:13 <ais523> (I think "du" stands for "disk usage")
17:12:23 <orin> isn't THAT the apparent size?
17:12:30 <b_jonas> yes, I usually say either du -a or du -s
17:12:37 <b_jonas> sometimes with a sort after
17:13:43 <ais523> orin: no, apparent size is the number of bytes you'd get if you read every byte in the file
17:13:54 <ais523> which could be less than the size on disk due to metadata, padding, and the like
17:14:00 <ais523> or more because the file is stored in a compressed format
17:14:34 <ais523> that's a special case of a compressed format, IMO
17:15:04 <Melvar> It might be the most common case for this purpose though.
17:15:09 <orin> ais523: i ... see. ok, so the incantation to see how much free space I need on a card to put my music on it, is du -s ~/music
17:15:44 <ais523> silly hashtable impl: a sparse file where addresses in your file correspond to possible keys directly
17:16:11 <ais523> orin: yep, you probably want to add --si to that (rather than -h) because people size storage devices in powers of 10 rather than powers of 2
17:16:26 <cpressey> ais523: I've seen that done on memory with hashconsing - the address of the object is its hash value
17:16:50 <cpressey> which is, y'know, ... interesting
17:17:10 <orin> cpressey: how can that work?
17:17:14 <ais523> presumably a lot of mmap
17:17:53 <ais523> plus some trick to place your stack somewhere your hashtable won't touch
17:17:57 <orin> two identical objects can have different addresses
17:18:08 <cpressey> orin: not if you hashcons them :)
17:18:10 <ais523> orin: not in this case!
17:18:18 <ais523> cpressey: I assume all objects have to be immutable
17:18:32 <cpressey> ais523: my memory of it is fuzzy but I assume so too
17:18:34 <ais523> and I'm not sure how you do deallocation; refcounting?
17:19:16 <orin> oh, so we are replacing addresses with hashes, not replacing hashs with addresses
17:19:28 <cpressey> I think it was on a 680x0 architecture fwiw. no mmap. stack is just... tucked away somewhere nice
17:20:03 <ais523> cpressey: mmap and friends would be helpful here because it lets your address space be larger than your physical memory
17:20:36 <cpressey> yes, that would remove that limitation
17:22:58 <orin> hmm... if it isn't immutable, then change to one sub-object changes the hashes of every object that points to it .: it has to be immutable
17:25:42 <orin> It also means that "does the object X exist" is a reasonable question. In C for example you'd have to iterate through memory, with hashconsig you can just use that hash
17:30:57 <cpressey> it is... interesting. i might try to dig up the paper (which included a bunch of stuff about trees vs hash tables for some reason)
17:31:55 <cpressey> teach kids to code so they can build things with love and change the world
17:32:38 <ais523> orin: there are two problems with that question
17:32:42 <ais523> one is hash collisions
17:33:00 <ais523> the other is, in order to be able to ask the question, you need the object in the first place and thus the object definitely does exist
17:33:22 <ais523> (I found both of these problems when writing my Perl memory profiler, which had a "does this object exist" as one of its side functionalities)
17:33:42 <orin> ais523: not if the question is asked from a degug envionment?
17:33:56 <ais523> orin: right, or if you're asking the question of the hash rather than of the object
17:34:04 <ais523> Devel::TrackAllocations' testsuite uses it
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21:01:48 <elliott> 17:17:20 <orin> ais523: i ... see. ok, so the incantation to see how much free space I need on a card to put my music on it, is du -s ~/music
21:01:53 <elliott> assuming it's using the same filesystem
21:01:57 <elliott> also ignoring things like deduplication etc.
21:02:23 <ais523> it's one of these apparently simple questions, where the answer is complex
21:07:56 <b_jonas> elliott: that gives a good guess, yes
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22:17:52 <oerjan> i think i may have drifted out of overlap with cpressey's irc time again
22:19:43 <oerjan> that his attempt to catch me failed
22:20:51 <boily> oh. you were trying to meet?
22:21:49 <oerjan> although he didn't seem to say why
22:22:05 <boily> something something apocalypse something fungot something.
22:22:05 <fungot> boily: fizzie you got fnord?!?
22:22:18 <boily> fungot: fizzie has fnord.
22:22:18 <fungot> boily: what is lambda? why isn't ( x) ( 1+ y)) please, will someone explain to me how exactly i'm going to
22:22:21 <oerjan> unless he _really_ wanted to use lambdabot's @oerjan command, i guess that's a remote possibility.
22:22:25 <orin> the title is showing as RIP JiAA MatouA!ek for me?
22:22:56 <int-e> orin: there are some accents
22:22:56 <boily> orin: J i r-hacek i-acute M a t o u s-hacek e k.
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22:23:28 <oerjan> if that _also_ shows up broken, you need to fix your unicode.
22:23:29 <b_jonas> orin: you should try to set your irc client to use utf-8 encoding
22:23:48 <orin> I am seeig J i Ao A~ Matou Ao upsidedown !
22:23:58 <b_jonas> sadly IRC doesn't have a single definite encoding, people have been known to use various single-byte national encodings on different channels just a few years ago
22:24:11 <b_jonas> these days they seem to have converged to utf-8, at least in the parts of irc I frequent
22:24:24 <boily> orin: heed the b_jonasadvice. utf8ify your client.
22:24:35 <oerjan> utf-8 is definitely the recommended encoding for this channel.
22:24:36 <b_jonas> boily: you forgot the space
22:24:43 <orin> ooh, now it's working
22:24:52 <boily> b_jonas: no I didn't :P
22:25:05 <boily> (word conflagration is a fun pastime!)
22:25:17 <boily> @oerjan what does @oerjan do?
22:25:20 <oerjan> possibly with fallback to something latin-1'y
22:25:32 <b_jonas> (also, his name isn't “Jiři Matoušek” despite that I wrote that a few times by mistake)
22:25:35 <oerjan> boily: something evil, i assume
22:26:21 <boily> oerjan: makes sense.
22:27:47 <oerjan> single-language sound. well, i'm not entirely sure whether slovakian also has it.
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22:28:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, to an ignorant foreigner like me the “ř” is just “r” with funny spelling, not a separate sound
22:30:18 <HackEgo> [U+1EA8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX AND HOOK ABOVE]
22:31:03 <oerjan> hm it exists in some dialects of other languages, including slovak, but the wikipedia page only list czech as having it generally
22:32:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: exists as in distinct from r, or as an allophone?
22:32:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: hm hungarians shouldn't be that ignorant hth
22:33:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: well in the polish and silesian entries in the table it's listed as contrasting.
22:33:52 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill#Occurrence_2
22:35:13 <Sgeo_> Pharo 4 beta was recently released
22:35:26 * Sgeo_ will probably play with the final version when it comes out
22:35:50 <boily> int-e: int-hello! vocalizing your suffering in foreign languages?
22:36:15 <fizzie> fungot: You talking to me?
22:36:15 <fungot> fizzie: but you can do about it? i thought since it was originally compiled with japanese perhaps that was his point... it's a bit cheap, relative to
22:38:24 <HackEgo> [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA] [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA] [U+A733 LATIN SMALL LETTER AA]
22:38:32 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: ping ← pong
22:40:36 <int-e> boily: just questioning the sanity of unicode.
22:41:29 <int-e> (Though there may not be anything there to question ;-) )
22:44:16 <b_jonas> ais523: you asked last time about the sound “gy” represents in Hungarian
22:45:12 * Sgeo_ questions the sanity of cookies
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22:45:58 <b_jonas> ais523: one thing that might help is that even in English, a minority of people pronounce “new” and “during” with “ny” and “gy” sounds. this is because those words originally have a [j] sound after the consonant, and “j” has a place of articulation (tongue position) similar to “ny” and “gy”
22:46:30 <b_jonas> so the “n” and “d” changes, just like how even in English “n” usually changes to the “ng” sound before a “g” or to an “m” sound before a “b”.
22:46:38 <ais523> hmm, how close is English "j" to Hungarian "dgy"
22:46:49 <b_jonas> (most people just pronounce those words with “n” and “d” though.)
22:47:02 <b_jonas> ais523: those are the same
22:47:24 <b_jonas> English “j” is the same as Hungarian “dzs”
22:47:49 <ais523> I forgot "zs" was even a letter
22:48:02 <b_jonas> “zs” is a letter even in Englihs, it occurs in “measure” most famously
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22:48:08 <b_jonas> it's the voiced pair of “sh”
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22:56:13 <ais523> I'm not sure English has a name for it at all
22:56:19 <ais523> although I agree that it is in the middle of the word "measure"
22:56:36 <ais523> I guess "zsh" is the closest I can get using normal English spelling
23:07:11 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
23:09:55 <olsner> hmm, are you still on the sound of hungarian dgy? ISTR that's where I left you half a week ago
23:11:16 <orin> I don't think zsh gets us much further than bash does
23:11:22 <fungot> boily: seems a popular pastime))
23:11:31 <int-e> "I seem to remember"
23:11:41 <ais523> "seems a popular pastime to leave you there half a week ago"
23:11:48 <int-e> fungot: you seem to have forgotten...
23:11:48 <fungot> int-e: fnord. went to the party), better healthcare, better everything." " ok, do _you_ grok dependent types are " low level" syntax case.
23:12:15 <boily> fungot: #$%*($%) )%($* 384950 %($*#(), so you may have new words to say.
23:12:15 <fungot> boily: conditions need not be duplicated at the beginning of the parameter names. at least it didn't earlier. ;-p
23:12:42 <int-e> does fizzie retrain the irc model now?
23:12:52 <int-e> afair it's frozen in time
23:13:36 <orin> there should be a shell called cash
23:13:54 <orin> it should be proprietary
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23:15:21 <olsner> boily: ISTR ISTR meaning "ISTR"
23:16:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:55 <int-e> . o O ( MLoM - modulo loss of memory )
23:17:03 <orin> International Society of Technical Redactors
23:18:15 <orin> Ia Ia Cthulhu Fhtagn
23:22:12 <int-e> I imitate chatting fungots.
23:22:12 <fungot> int-e: 1l 2l adjust axo bch bf8,16,32,64 funge93 fyb fybs glass glypho kipple malbolge pbrain sceql udage01 unlambda
23:22:35 <orin> As used: "I think we should implement the new accounting software in MUMPS, IICF"
23:22:42 <int-e> wait, why did it respond with a language list...
23:23:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:24:12 <int-e> ISTR that ISTR has several meanings.
23:25:08 <ais523> doesnt it basically always start "I seem to"
23:25:15 <ais523> the fourth word can vary
23:25:41 <int-e> A dictionary suggested "It Stands To Reason".
23:26:57 <ais523> I disagree with that dictionary
23:27:12 <orin> what does that mean?
23:28:00 <orin> ISTR hearing "stands to reason" in a pratchett book.
23:28:46 <orin> But I don't know what it's actualy supposed to mean
23:28:55 <int-e> "It Stands To Reason That" is more or less equivalent to "In My Opinion"
23:29:55 <int-e> (Though conceivably you could use it for opinions not your own. "One Might Argue That" is perhaps closer.)
23:30:38 <olsner> one can argue literally anything, so that's pretty meaningless
23:30:42 <ais523> I thought "it stands to reason" sort-of implies "a sufficiently intelligent person could deduce that"
23:31:12 <int-e> Yeah, note the implied insult of your intelligence if you happen to disagree.
23:31:25 <int-e> I guess... s/insult of/insult to/
23:32:48 <ais523> int-e: yep, I think that's part of it
23:49:30 <FireFly> I thought it was "I seem to recall" (which is not very different to 'remember', though)
23:51:17 <int-e> That's quite possible, I tend to use synonyms interchangeably
23:52:49 <int-e> Hmm, is there a special term for words that have an overlap in meaning, so they can be synonymous in some contexts but not in others?
23:54:08 <ais523> etymologically "synonym" should be that, I guess (with two words that /always/ mean the same thing "isonyms")
23:55:48 <int-e> Thanks. "Words can be synonymous when meant in certain senses, even if they are not synonymous in all of their senses."