00:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42630&oldid=42618 * Esowiki201529A * (+65) /* Escape sequence */
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00:37:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript/Escape sequence]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42631 * Esowiki201529A * (+5057) Created page with "{| class="wikitable sortable" |- ! escape sequence !! output !! output’s ASCII code |- | $x21 || ! || 33 |- | $x22 || " || 34 |- | $x23 || # || 35 |- | $x24 || &..."
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01:10:07 <pikhq> http://berlin.ipsojobs.com/job/senior-brainf-k-developer/3-1473326
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03:19:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42632&oldid=42629 * Zzo38 * (-538) Add OASYS Assembler; delete the Frolg version that is not valid anymore
03:24:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42633&oldid=42632 * Zzo38 * (+456) OASYS (OAC)
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03:27:15 <zzo38> Now I made the Deadfish using both compilers for OASYS which are both OAC and OAA and now is possible to see how they are compared.
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04:30:36 <tromp_> > let f='.';o c(x:y)=x:c y;z c(x:y)=f:c y;p n='p':ap fix p(o.n)in f:f:p z
04:30:38 <lambdabot> "..pp.p.p...p.p...p.p...p.....p.p.....p...p.p...p.....p.....p.p.....p...p.p....
04:42:48 <tromp_> 0 is not, 1 is not, 2 is,...
04:45:23 <copumpkin> > let f='.';o c(x:y)=x:c y;z c(x:y)=f:c y;p n='p':ap fix p(o.n)in map fst . filter ((=='p') . snd) $ zip [0..] (f:f:p z)
04:45:24 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
04:49:38 <tromp_> we developed it in BLC originally
04:49:52 <tromp_> see https://github.com/tromp/AIT
04:50:29 <tromp_> which is also featured in http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html
04:50:49 <tromp_> i just translated it to Haskell tonight...
04:51:54 <zzo38> Ah, yes now I can see, that is what it is.
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04:52:49 <zzo38> Mathematics will make up many ways of one thing a lot of times.
04:52:58 <tromp_> i'm off to bed now... g'night!
04:55:48 <jsilver> if numbers start at 0, why isn't 56 really called 57
05:09:57 <orin> jsilver: you could call it that.
05:11:02 <orin> the names of numbers are pretty much arbitrary
05:12:07 <orin> a better question however is why isn't eleven called oneteen?
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05:42:56 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a <urn:null> URI?
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05:59:32 <HackEgo> [U+3007 IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO]
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06:07:44 <jsilver> haskell is really fucking cool man
06:09:37 <orin> AAAAAA WHY ARE THE SUBTITLES HALF IN GERMAN
06:10:01 <myname> you don't like german?
06:11:07 <orin> I guess I don't mind since I understand the japanese anyway, but it is weird
06:15:05 <orin> She says よかった、友達が出来た and the subtitles say "I'm glad I made some Freunde"
06:17:41 <orin> hmm I'm starting to like this.
06:21:38 <orin> Was ist los? どうしたの？
06:23:54 <jsilver> fuck this is so cool man, my mind is blown
06:27:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QuinePig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42634&oldid=41983 * 122.37.11.94 * (+0) /* Text File Named "Hello, World!" */
06:32:23 <myname> what are you watching?
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06:38:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASISP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42635 * Orenwatson * (+576) lol this would be awesome
06:38:41 <orin> girls und panzer
06:39:46 <myname> to be fair, the title is half german, too
06:41:08 <orin> So I think we could just mix programming languages too,
06:47:13 <orin> in a sense PHP is kind of a Perl/C crossover.
06:56:36 <orin> Interpreting such a programming language would be easy for a human, but hard for a computer
06:59:24 <orin> "Der Herrgott sei gelobt" <-- what does that mean?!!?!?!?
07:02:21 <orin> Ah. that makes sense
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07:05:03 <mroman> or more literally "Praised be the lord"(?)
07:05:21 <orin> yeah they translated よかった with it
07:05:23 <mroman> I'm not sure if that is proper english though.
07:12:18 <orin> yeah that sounds like proper english
07:12:44 <orin> (based on my arbitrary native speaker sense of what sounds right)
07:13:05 <quintopia> it is legitimate, but a bit formal, nigh on archaic
07:13:42 <myname> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDAHcZnUUAALn2d.jpg
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07:22:17 <mroman> What would you say otherwise?
07:22:30 <mroman> That sounds like an order.
07:26:36 <orin> Hmm, it kind of is a set phrase...
07:27:40 <orin> I guess halelujah is also still used, but that is hebrew not english
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07:35:58 <mroman> Good thing I switched religions.
07:42:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42636&oldid=42033 * Vriskanon * (+134) /* Music */ Added idea for original Daft Punk language
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07:44:23 <mroman> A religion of peace :)
07:44:36 <mroman> fungot: Do you like peace?
07:44:37 <fungot> mroman: a very tiny car... coincidence, utahraptor?: we either have to acknowledge that, why call him " hey man of my racial qualities! so say a decision has to be made to feel the miracle??
07:45:08 <mroman> "A decision has to be made to feel the miracle"
07:52:10 <orin> Damn it. I'm tired but I have to sta up so that I'll be on a sleep schedule where my test is in the afternoon
07:52:47 <orin> At least it's probably the last exam I'll ever take
07:54:41 <mroman> what's your current sleep schedule?
07:55:46 <orin> Currently I would be going to sleep aboutnow
08:06:53 <mroman> Can one solve equation systems of the sort a ^ b = c AND a | b = d AND a & b = e where c,d and e are known but not a,b?
08:08:03 <mroman> (I can obviously brute-force it)
08:08:27 <mroman> but I'm not sure if that even gives a unique answer.
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08:13:56 <orin> Hmm... if d=0 then the only answer is a=b=0. If e=1 then the only answer is a=b=1.
08:15:02 <orin> If d=1 and e=0, then one of a,b is 0 and the other is 1
08:15:38 <orin> and c has to be 1, so it tells us nothing
08:15:54 <orin> So you cannot solve it
08:16:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42637 * Vriskanon * (+122) cre
08:18:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42638&oldid=42637 * Vriskanon * (+2) Created AFTL stub page
08:19:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42639&oldid=42614 * Vriskanon * (+11) /* A */ Added Another Fucking Time Loop
08:28:28 <fizzie> Hm? http://sprunge.us/OjWM makes it sound like there'd be a unique combination of c, d, e for each of the possible values of a, b.
08:29:14 <fizzie> Yeah, the 0/1, 1/0 cases have the same c, d, e.
08:29:59 <fizzie> (Given that all three are commutative, maybe not so surprising.)
08:30:33 <orin> d would have to be 1 not 0. if d is 0 or e is 1 then c must be 0
08:30:57 <mroman> A naive person like me would even claim that the above system is "over defined"
08:31:02 <mroman> 3 equations, 2 variables
08:31:20 <fizzie> (Also I wrote the table all wrong. I've just woken up, going to blame that.)
08:31:47 <orin> yeah that only works for algebra on real numbers
08:33:42 <fizzie> If you had, say, a ^ b, a | b and a -> b, then you could tell.
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08:38:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42640&oldid=42638 * Vriskanon * (+2264) Added all content excluding sample programs.
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08:39:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42641&oldid=42628 * Vriskanon * (+11) /* Original Languages */ Added AFTL
08:41:29 <mroman> Any ideas on how to encode a,b into c and d so that a,b can only be reconstructed by somebody knowing both c and d?
08:41:39 <mroman> where a,b are integers mod N
08:41:49 <mroman> (and c,d also integers mod N)
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08:44:24 <oerjan> that's not quite a one time pad
08:44:47 <mroman> 128+128 = 0, 128 - 128 = 0
08:45:34 <orin> what about for prime N
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08:46:38 <oerjan> odd N is enough, i think
08:46:43 <orin> oerjanL whats a one time pad
08:47:01 <oerjan> perfect encryption with a key as long as the message
08:47:02 <orin> augh I mean oerjan:
08:47:25 <oerjan> to be perfect, the key must _never_ be reused, thus one time
08:48:13 <oerjan> but then you encrypt a as a + k, say.
08:48:25 <oerjan> (any group operation will do.)
08:49:17 <mroman> what's with the one time pad?
08:49:18 <oerjan> i suppose it is a one time pad if b is the key
08:49:35 <mroman> a and b are two data points
08:49:54 <oerjan> in that case i believe what you're asking is mathematically impossible
08:50:04 <mroman> well it works with odd N
08:50:28 <oerjan> no i mean, to be secure you have to assume the attacker knows _something_ about a and b.
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08:51:06 <oerjan> like, imagine is a be were just 0 and 1 (but you still used > 1 bits) (this is a hypothetical strawman to illustrate)
08:51:08 <mroman> it's terrible against known plaintexts I guess
08:51:29 <mroman> or partially known plaintexts
08:51:43 <oerjan> or even texts in a known language
08:53:17 <oerjan> otoh secret sharing _is_ a branch of cryptography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_sharing
08:53:50 <mroman> but you would have no overhead and wouldn't need to transmit any keys
08:53:53 <oerjan> however you need more bits than the secret to be shared
08:54:16 <oerjan> yes, but i don't think that's theoretically possible.
08:54:36 <oerjan> the overhead is needed to make it work.
08:54:43 <mroman> Reasonably if a and b were images
08:54:50 <mroman> I can encode those two images into two other images
08:54:58 <mroman> and give one to each of my two friends
08:55:16 <mroman> and they wouldn't be able to get these two images back without consulting each other
08:55:24 <mroman> (unless they have good prior knowledge about a and b I guess)
08:55:43 <mroman> and I don't need to give them any keys or whatsoever.
08:56:07 <oerjan> i suppose you need a good scrambling function. hm can you write it using just a hash...
08:56:36 <oerjan> assume we can use a publically know hash function.
08:56:40 <mroman> That's the scenario I'm aiming at actually :D @two images, distribute to two friends
08:57:31 <mroman> however you can probably see parts of the images :(
08:57:46 <mroman> i.e. if one is bright and one is dark (i.e mostly (0,0,0) pixels)
08:57:53 <mroman> you would see the other image in the a+b image
08:57:55 <oerjan> a + b + h, a - b + h, the question is what should the hash h be _of_ to make it reconstructible
08:58:50 <oerjan> if you hash b it works with that, i think
08:59:04 <oerjan> because you can reconstruct b by subtraction
08:59:22 <oerjan> mroman: for that you can hash a
08:59:28 <mroman> that let's you reconstruct h anyway?
08:59:37 <mroman> by taking the difference of the two images?
08:59:57 <oerjan> there are several options here
09:01:20 <mroman> you could use the upper left pixels to encode some information I guess
09:01:33 <mroman> but then you loose a few pixel of the image :(
09:01:37 <mroman> and that'd be cheating
09:02:59 <elliott> can't you just use xor or something
09:04:03 <oerjan> elliott: not with his requirement that the resulting shares should be that small
09:04:08 <elliott> you can use xor to split A and B into A and C or B and C such that the combination of both gives you the remaining one
09:04:09 <mroman> a ^ b = c; a ^ d = e; but then you'd need to transmit c,d and e
09:04:21 <elliott> but that requires revealing one of A or B
09:05:03 <oerjan> elliott: btw he's not assuming that the number of values is a power of 2, so xor isn't necessarily available
09:05:19 <elliott> you can xor images well enough
09:05:46 <oerjan> well they usually _are_ a whole number of bits
09:05:46 <mroman> you can xor images, yes.
09:06:25 <elliott> if you have a hash function H and let c = a ^ b then you could somehow compute a fixed point x = encrypt(c, H(y)), y = encrypt(c, H(x)). maybe.
09:06:58 <elliott> oh. because you can't go from both of those to a or b
09:08:38 <elliott> x = encrypt(a, H(y)), y = encrypt(b, H(x)) would still work, but that's just cheating by assuming you can construct that fixed point
09:10:03 <elliott> well I am sure oerjan will figure it out
09:10:05 <mroman> you could also randomly select if you should use the pixel from image A or image B
09:10:39 <mroman> if rnd() then x[i] = a[i] ; y[i] = b [i] else x[i] = b[i]; y[i] = a [i];
09:10:57 <mroman> but then you'd need to comunicate the seed somehow
09:10:58 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_sharing#Space_efficient_secret_sharing <-- this seems to imply you cannot get quite down to that size, and in fact there is no saving with just 2 people
09:11:14 <mroman> I hate that a + b, a - b totally works
09:11:22 <mroman> images aren't random enough :(
09:12:59 <mroman> you could scramble things though
09:13:04 <mroman> like x = a + b; y = a -b;
09:13:11 <mroman> then swap pixels in x and y
09:13:41 <mroman> (i.e. swap x[i] and y[i])
09:13:59 <mroman> that reduces visible artefacts to some extent.
09:14:18 <oerjan> the point of my adding a hash was to ensure that scrambling.
09:14:53 <oerjan> of course the hash has to be the same size, and indistinguishable from random noise
09:15:38 <oerjan> this is obviously vulnerable to an attacker who knows either a or b
09:15:39 <mroman> x = a + b + H(b), y = a - b + H(b)?
09:16:15 <mroman> x - y = a + b + H(b) - a + b - H(b) = b + b?
09:16:17 <oerjan> except + _doesn't_ work with whole bits
09:16:40 <oerjan> maybe nothing does, hm
09:17:23 <oerjan> it works when N is odd
09:17:23 <mroman> and you can't really divide by 2 :(
09:17:51 <mroman> how do you reconstruct b?
09:18:10 <oerjan> easy when N is odd hth
09:19:05 <oerjan> x = a - b + H(b), y = a + 2b + H(b) would work when N is not divisible by 3, etc.
09:20:28 <oerjan> hm i'm slightly worried that some bits may seep through there
09:20:28 <mroman> If an attacker knows a or b your privacy is lost anyway :D
09:21:07 <mroman> that depends on H probably
09:21:12 <mroman> if H(x) = x then yes :D
09:21:20 <oerjan> there's probably something wrong about this scheme since the wikipedia page doesn't mention it, but i don't know what :)
09:21:38 <mroman> maybe it's too good so the NSA doesn't want people to know it .
09:21:41 <oerjan> why in the world would H(x) = x
09:22:09 <mroman> because that's the Hashfunction recommended by the NSA
09:22:13 <elliott> oerjan: if we're considering bits then H is either identity or negation right
09:22:29 <oerjan> elliott: um we're not considering single bits hth
09:22:57 <oerjan> (i'm pretty sure i used the word "strawman" in the line where i did)
09:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42642&oldid=42640 * Vriskanon * (+279) Added Hello World sample program
09:24:04 <elliott> oerjan: okay but we're considering images right
09:24:09 <elliott> so isn't + meant to be bitwise xor or whatever
09:24:12 <oerjan> the NSA doesn't want encryption to be _that_ bad. they don't want the _chinese_ to be able to break it, after all.
09:24:39 <oerjan> elliott: no, it's + (mod N), sheesh
09:25:44 <oerjan> if it were xor then 2b would be 0. otoh i don't see why that _really_ breaks anything...
09:27:08 <oerjan> so my assumption is that the NSA wants encryption to be strong but them to have a backdoor. which i recall is exactly what they tried to do to one standard.
09:27:59 <oerjan> ok then, x = a + b + H(b), y = a + H(b).
09:28:24 <oerjan> now it works with any group addition.
09:30:49 <oerjan> but probably breaks for lousy a and b
09:35:18 <elliott> oerjan: ok but what is H then
09:35:28 <elliott> presumably it has a smaller domain than codomain?
09:36:02 <oerjan> no that wouldn't work, needs to be equal size
09:36:42 <elliott> are you sure this is a hash function :P
09:36:50 <oerjan> it needs to look like random noise
09:37:00 <oerjan> no, i'm not sure that's what it's called
09:37:05 <elliott> is there a name for that kind of scrambler
09:38:04 <oerjan> oh and it's also necessary that b + H(b) looks like random noise
09:39:02 <mroman> well some basic structure can still be recognised depending on the pictures.
09:39:21 <mroman> but my hash function isn't that great probably
09:39:40 <oerjan> mroman: RANDOM NOISE OF THE SAME SIZE hth
09:39:55 <elliott> oerjan: H is basically an encryption with some random key
09:40:00 <elliott> (as in, some pre-specified key)
09:40:18 <elliott> I guess it's just H(x) = x ^ key
09:40:47 <oerjan> elliott: um no that would break the b + H(b) assumption i just f mentioned hth
09:41:38 <oerjan> elliott: if you mean ^ = + = xor, it doesn't help, b + H(b) = key then
09:42:37 <oerjan> (note that the key is _not_ secret or we break the whole problem statement)
09:43:04 <elliott> well are you sure this H exists
09:43:25 <elliott> you want H(x) to not be x, and also x + H(x) to neither be x nor H(x), but not be the same for all x
09:43:40 <elliott> maybe my intuition is misfiring in seeing a pigeonhole problem here
09:44:28 <oerjan> elliott: um there's no requirement it cannot accidentally coincide for _some_ x.
09:45:28 <oerjan> it just has to be astonishingly unlikely
09:45:55 <mroman> I'm using x^3 `mod` 255
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09:46:26 <oerjan> bloody upstairs neighbor trampling around
09:47:21 <mroman> you can still recognize that it's a building in the picture :)
09:47:51 <oerjan> mroman: it's not supposed to apply the hash function to each byte separately, duh
09:48:02 <oerjan> it's supposed to be a hash of the _whole_ picture
09:48:22 <mroman> if b is a white picture
09:48:37 <mroman> or a black one for that matter
09:48:45 <oerjan> ...then you're lost anyway because what attacker cannot test such simple cases?
09:49:01 <orin> oerjan: try hitting the ceiling with a broom
09:49:05 <mroman> even if you take the hash of the whole picture
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09:49:11 <mroman> you can still recognize structures in them
09:49:19 <mroman> if an area is uniform in one picture
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09:49:43 <mroman> the other picture will "shimmer" through
09:50:22 <orin> try throwing a potato at the ceiling
09:50:38 <oerjan> mroman: the hash is supposed to look like random noise for heaven's sake
09:51:03 <oerjan> mroman: THEN FIND A BETTER ONE
09:51:12 <mroman> the hash has the same size as the picture?
09:51:31 <elliott> can you please call it something other than H :P
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09:52:34 * oerjan must be having that Curse of knowledge thing
09:52:55 <oerjan> hashed together with dunning-kruger
09:53:13 <oerjan> orin: i don't have a potato hth
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09:55:57 <orin> I didn't mean specifically a potato, just some random object
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09:57:50 <oerjan> I HAVE NO RANDOM OBJECTS oh wait
09:57:59 <oerjan> also they sort of stopped.
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10:33:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
10:33:28 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/2015: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
10:33:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) != "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
10:34:01 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
10:34:25 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014
10:37:55 <FireFly> Someone has yet to write a page on the 2015 derivative
10:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42643&oldid=42394 * Oerjan * (+10) wikify a bit
10:40:51 <AndoDaan> it outputs when run in any year but it's 2015?
10:47:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42644&oldid=42569 * Oerjan * (-19) Fix some disorder
10:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42645&oldid=42639 * Oerjan * (-6) /* G */ grm
11:00:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2016: not found
11:02:39 <AndoDaan> 2016 should be, if 2014 and 2015 give the same output then output it too, if not then... something else.
11:07:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42646&oldid=42348 * Oerjan * (+642) Wikify and format
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11:13:39 <mroman> if year = 0 then echo "Welcome, Jesus!"
11:13:54 <mroman> that is, unless you beleive some period around 17xx didn't exist.
11:14:20 <mroman> (It was around 17xx wasn't it?)
11:14:52 <mroman> which proposes that the year 613 was followed by the year 911 hm no
11:15:43 <mroman> 1000 AD, so he got there by advancing the calendar 300 years
11:15:56 <mroman> ok apparenteley multiple people screwed with the calendar.
11:16:12 <mroman> 613-911 didn't exist and 700-1000 didn't exist.
11:16:40 <mroman> how can he advance 300 years from 700 to 1000 if the year 700 didn't exist in the first place?
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11:19:04 <boily> mrhelloman. they saved on non-existing years by recycling one that never happened in the first place hth
11:19:14 <boily> AndhelloDaan. it's him, who else?
11:21:07 <mroman> AndoDaan: the pope I think.
11:21:48 <mroman> I just know that there are conspiracies about years being skipped
11:21:55 <mroman> and no sane man would do that
11:22:08 <mroman> so I just assumed it has a religous background to do so
11:22:25 <mroman> I would advance the calender to 3145
11:22:28 <mroman> but I'm no sane man :p
11:23:15 <mroman> AndoDaan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
11:23:23 <mroman> that's one of those conspiracies.
11:24:49 <mroman> "One theory ran that one pope wanted to be the pope of record for 1000 AD, so he got there by advancing the calendar 300 years. "
11:25:07 <mroman> He could've just asked god for him to live another 300 years but ok...
11:25:32 <AndoDaan> Maybe he hoped to bring about the second coming.
11:25:37 <mroman> "Another theory ran that the church had created historical documents predicting future events, and when they didn’t happen they just made up the history to match the documents, stuck it in and claimed that the predictions had come true. "
11:27:00 <orin> There's also the weird Fomenko theory
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11:27:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Axo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42647&oldid=42357 * Oerjan * (+38) table style, fmt, template
11:27:36 <orin> Which claims that various events prior to 1000 were postdated copies of events that happened after
11:28:45 <orin> Apparently Solomon and Suleiman the Magnificent are the same person
11:29:44 <Taneb> Pseudohistory is entertaining sometimes
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11:39:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[POGAACK]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42648&oldid=42397 * Oerjan * (-21) Something went wrong with that last edit. Also link.
11:41:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42649&oldid=42481 * Oerjan * (+11) intro fmt
11:42:44 <orin> I have no way of proving that anything happened prior to ~1996
11:44:55 <mroman> orin: How old were you 1996?
11:45:29 <orin> assuming the previous three years actually happened
11:45:35 <mroman> but are you sure that it really was the year 1996?
11:45:41 <mroman> knowing that some years might not have existed at all.
11:45:49 <orin> Well it could have been the year 0
11:46:31 <orin> which would make this year 19
11:47:24 <orin> Alternately, we could fix 1970 as year 0
11:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish (programming language)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42650&oldid=42588 * Oerjan * (+64) link, tables, link description
11:48:33 <mroman> using 1970 as year 0 sounds reasonable.
11:51:35 <orin> making Alan Shepard the first man on the moon
11:51:56 <FireFly> What is 1970? I think year 0 is year 0
11:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] to [[User:Esowiki201529A/ASCII art/mandelbrot]]: I don't think this should be a main namespace article all by itself
11:52:50 <orin> it would allow us to more easily convert unix time to years
11:53:12 <oerjan> didn't we use to have subpages in User:
12:07:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hashes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42652&oldid=42493 * Oerjan * (-21) Undo revision 42493 by [[Special:Contributions/Esowiki201529A|Esowiki201529A]] ([[User talk:Esowiki201529A|talk]]) (doesn't work)
12:10:59 <oerjan> the wiki is nearly locking up again :(
12:11:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish (disambiguation)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42653&oldid=42574 * Oerjan * (+14) We seem to have a template for this
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12:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[420]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42654 * Vriskanon * (+2633) Added 420 in celebration of 4/20. Code is a derivative of Chicken.
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12:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42655&oldid=42641 * Vriskanon * (+10) /* Joke Languages */ Added 420 credit
12:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42656&oldid=42627 * Vriskanon * (+76) /* General languages */ Added 420
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13:26:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[420]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42657&oldid=42654 * Vriskanon * (+1) /* Commands */ Fixed an error in table
13:30:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42658&oldid=42642 * Vriskanon * (+163) /* Commands */ Added spacing clarification
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13:39:30 <mroman> orin: but Fomenko is probably the sanest of them all
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14:19:40 <tswett> Y'know, my favorite large number is one I like to call "the largest reasonable number".
14:20:17 <tswett> The largest number representable in the calculus of constructions using no more than a million symbols.
14:21:06 <tswett> Of course, that's a rather ambiguous definition. What, exactly, is "the calculus of constructions", and what counts as a "symbol", and how do you represent a number in the CoC.
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14:25:42 <mroman> I like the notation of "reasonably large numbers"
14:27:11 <mroman> I call every number reasonable that can be expressed as a sum of distinct square roots.
14:27:50 <mroman> and I call numbers of the form n = sqrt(a) + sqrt(b) where (a - b) = n super reasonable
14:28:02 <mroman> (I hope there aren't too many of them)
14:28:11 <mroman> but there are too many
14:28:26 <mroman> Can't every number be expressed as the sum of two squares actually?
14:29:06 <mroman> but what about square roots.
14:29:09 <ais523> (a - b) = sqrt(a) + sqrt(b); thus (a - b)² = (sqrt(a) + sqrt(b))²; thus a² - 2ab + b² = a + b + 2×sqrt(a×b)
14:29:22 <ais523> mroman: even more numbers can be expressed as the sum of two square roots
14:29:38 <ais523> e.g. 3 is not the sum of two squares
14:29:45 <ais523> but it's sqrt(1) + sqrt(4)
14:30:14 <mroman> obviously you can do that with every number ;)
14:30:26 <ais523> a necessary condition for a number to be super reasonable is that a×b is a square number
14:30:43 <ais523> yep, super reasonable is harder
14:31:11 <mroman> sqrt(4) + sqrt(1) is 3
14:31:49 <mroman> It'd be more fun if the numbers to be square rooted can't exceed the number itself
14:32:11 <ais523> in that case it's impossible for any but very small numbers
14:32:22 <ais523> because most numbers are greater than twice their own square root
14:32:33 <ais523> this super reasonable thing is more interesting though
14:32:36 <mroman> well you can use multiple square roots
14:32:40 <mroman> just not the same one twice.
14:34:14 <mroman> sqrt(1) + sqrt(4) would be illegal then
14:35:03 <mroman> I need to come up with more useful things.
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15:01:18 <mroman> ais523: What about numbers that can't be divided by any sum of two of its factors.
15:01:31 <mroman> Like 6 is not such a number because 1+2 = 3 and 3 divides 6
15:01:51 <mroman> 8 however 1,2,4,8 is such a number.
15:02:14 <ais523> I have a feeling that there's a simple rule here
15:02:24 <mroman> probably with the number 3
15:02:29 <ais523> along the line of "any number with three different prime factors"
15:02:35 <ais523> but that's not necessary
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15:35:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
15:35:27 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 293 Done echo [[]]ax \ 294 Segmentation fault | dc
15:35:48 <izabera> myndzi: stop adding penises -_-
15:38:25 <izabera> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
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15:44:34 <fizzie> I think there are just limits.
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15:52:15 <FireFly> ...dc shouldn't segfault on [[]]ax, should it? What's happening there?
15:53:22 <FireFly> Oh huh, it just pushes '[' as a string and then tries to execute that?
16:07:23 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it's not very robust w.r.t. unbalanced brackets.
16:07:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42659&oldid=42658 * Vriskanon * (+23) /* Commands */ Changed inherant looping
16:07:52 <fizzie> Probably you're not "supposed" to be able to enter such.
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16:14:24 <Somelauw> What's a good way to represent negative numbers in brainfuck-like languages without having to special case.
16:15:02 <Somelauw> I noticed multiplication works most of the time because of wrapping
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16:30:13 <int-e> FireFly: beautiful
16:30:32 <FireFly> izabera's program, not mine
16:30:50 <FireFly> Even this segfaults, it seems..
16:31:09 <HackEgo> Usage: dc [OPTION] [file ...] \ -e, --expression=EXPR evaluate expression \ -f, --file=FILE evaluate contents of file \ -h, --help display this help and exit \ -V, --version output version information and exit \ \ Email bug reports to: bug-dc@gnu.org .
16:31:28 <FireFly> I thought GNU software was generally a bit more stable than that
16:31:30 <int-e> `learn dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[')
16:31:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'dc': dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[')
16:35:44 <Somelauw> but something more easy to represent comparision operators with
16:36:31 <Somelauw> izabera: I think it works all the time for plus, minus, times and divide as long as the implementation is wrapped
16:41:41 <fizzie> I think I knew that about -e '[', but had totally forgotten.
16:43:05 <fizzie> `run dc -e ']' # at least this has an error message
16:43:06 <HackEgo> dc: ']' (0135) unimplemented
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17:01:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42660&oldid=40158 * GermanyBoy * (+628) /* Examples/Minsky machine */ new section
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17:05:02 <J_Arcane> So I dredged up an old bit of code for an RNG using Racket generators. Anyone wanna sanity check my math? http://pasterack.org/pastes/80800
17:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Onecode (GermanyBoy)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42661&oldid=41662 * GermanyBoy * (+45) /* Grammar */
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17:22:24 <zzo38> If dc has something wrong then you can post a bug report to GNU
17:22:32 <zzo38> (You can also try to fix it by yourself)
17:23:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42662&oldid=42659 * Vriskanon * (-5) /* Hello, world! program */ Fixed Hello, world! program
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17:26:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42663&oldid=42662 * Vriskanon * (+42) /* Sample programs */ Added Cat program
17:29:01 <Taneb> `dc -e "1 2 3 + + p"
17:29:05 <HackEgo> dc: dc: '"' (042) unimplemented \ 6 \ '"' (042) unimplemented
17:29:09 <Taneb> `run dc -e "1 2 3 + + p"
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18:08:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fortob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42664&oldid=40525 * GermanyBoy * (+276) /* Method reference */
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19:17:20 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell Mozilla and other software to set a proxy for only secure connections? Is there such a proxy that decrypts everything so that it doesn't cause problems with the user client causing errors with it?
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19:21:31 <fizzie> I think that's generally called a man-in-the-middle attack.
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19:25:59 <zzo38> They are files which don't need to be secure but the server insists on entering secure mode, yet it does not even do it using a compatible cipher and then it is error.
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19:43:31 <fizzie> I think normally if you tell a browser to use a proxy for the 'https' scheme, it will just use the 'CONNECT' request method, so you would need to use some sort of transparent proxy setup, and then there's the certificate problem. If you just want to provide http:// endpoints for something behind a https-only server, and don't need it to be "invisible" to the users, you could just set up a ...
19:43:37 <fizzie> ... regular web server as a "reverse proxy", so that when the user asks for http://proxy/foo, it will fetch the resource from https://server/foo.
19:44:30 <zzo38> Some servers use the wrong certificate so I want to ignore the certificate
19:45:46 <zzo38> I have used CONNECT proxy before, not only for HTTP and HTTPS but also to connect to MUD servers that temporarily could not be reached from my computer for some reason
19:46:11 <zzo38> Do you know if Wikipedia has a userbox for linking to FOAF data?
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19:52:47 <pikhq> fizzie: That is correct.
19:53:01 <pikhq> fizzie: It's the only way for https to work *sensibly* through a proxy.
19:53:31 <pikhq> Other such schemes (where the proxy injects! itself! via firewall funkiness) obviously breaks horribly on https unless the browsers are set to trust the proxy's cert.
19:54:36 <pikhq> HTTP CONNECT is kinda neat as a way of tunneling a TCP connection.
19:54:43 <pikhq> *If* obviously quite limited in scope.
20:00:18 <zzo38> I do find HTTP CONNECT useful for use as a general-purpose proxy sometimes, since there are some such proxies
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20:00:55 <zzo38> Although what I was asking, this doesn't do.
20:02:19 <zzo38> I certainly don't need it to be invisible to users but do need it to be capable of working with the same domain name (although there is a way around that too of course, such as by using hosts files)
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20:09:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Harp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42665&oldid=42555 * Oerjan * (+8) clarify
20:11:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42666&oldid=42663 * Vriskanon * (+1874) Added Python Interpreter
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20:22:37 <zzo38> I had idea making the decentralized poll survey system out of RDF
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20:41:54 <tswett> How many integers are the sum of two square roots of integers, neither of which is a perfect square?
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20:45:14 <oerjan> except 0 if you squint the right way
20:45:57 <oerjan> also i vaguely recall some relevant theorem
20:46:00 <tswett> Lessee, when is sqrt(a) + sqrt(b) an integer? Is there a Diophantine equation for that?
20:46:33 <tswett> It's an integer whenever a + b + 2 sqrt(ab) is a perfect square.
20:46:36 <oerjan> (sqrt(a) + sqrt(b))^2 is then also an integer
20:47:15 <oerjan> which means 4ab must be a perfect square, minimum
20:48:41 <oerjan> which means every factor of a or b which _isn't_ a square must be equal
20:49:21 <oerjan> so a = n*x^2, b = n*y^2
20:49:40 <tswett> So it's (x^2 + y^2) sqrt(n), aye?
20:49:49 <tswett> Which is never an integer when n isn't a perfect square, aye?
20:50:21 <tswett> But the conclusion is right, aye?
20:50:23 <quintopia> but the sqrt n part is what matters
20:50:29 <tswett> So this Turing machine does not halt.
20:54:45 <oerjan> also, the "except 0" looks right too.
20:55:47 <quintopia> it being the sum of all pairs of square roots of the same number
20:57:37 <quintopia> it doesnt matter to the proof above whether we allow one of the roots to be negative, except in that case, yes?
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21:04:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42667&oldid=42579 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Sample programs */ links and section level
21:05:03 * oerjan finds it curious that the page takes ages to load _after_ HackEgo has announced it
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21:06:01 <oerjan> which happened instantly this time
21:11:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[4]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42668&oldid=42613 * Oerjan * (-7) formatting, link
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21:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Element]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42669&oldid=42610 * Oerjan * (+40) section levels, links
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21:31:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basilisk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42670&oldid=42626 * Oerjan * (+61) intro does not need header, formatting, typo
21:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[420]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42671&oldid=42657 * Oerjan * (-27) intro format, section levels
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21:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AFTL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42672&oldid=42666 * Oerjan * (-21) intro format, section levels, link
21:56:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe it has to swap out MediaWiki in order for HackEgo to speak.
21:56:28 <fizzie> oerjan: Alternatively, all 104 people on channel instantly try to visit whenever HackEgo says something.
21:57:12 <olsner> 104 people, that's ... something
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22:37:44 <oerjan> eek i disagree with spj but i don't have ghc HEAD to test with...
22:41:22 <tswett> All right, I'm doing this. I'm making this happen.
22:41:33 <tswett> I'm starting the Lepwick project again.
22:43:11 <zzo38> What kind of project is that?
22:46:38 <tswett> Why, what kind of project *isn't* it?
22:46:56 <tswett> The idea is for it to be a legal, political, and economic simulation.
22:50:48 <tswett> Well, ideally other people will also participate eventually.
22:52:33 <int-e> oerjan: it's not very hard to build ghc you know :P
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22:56:10 <int-e> I dunno, you may have a point there. How can you suffer Windows?
22:56:23 <Jafet> Surely the point of reference there is the difficulty of building anything at all on windows
22:56:39 <oerjan> i think i should ban you all.
22:56:53 <int-e> that would be a big time-saver
22:57:06 <Jafet> for everyone involved
22:57:47 <Sgeo_> I've seen Windows referred to as 'the securest one'
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22:58:16 <Sgeo_> https://www.blackhat.com/docs/eu-14/materials/eu-14-Selvi-Bypassing-HTTP-Strict-Transport-Security.pdf
22:58:32 <Sgeo_> Windows: • NTPv3but…
22:58:32 <Sgeo_> • Synchronizationeach7days.
22:58:41 <Sgeo_> • Doesn’tacceptmorethan15hoursincrement/
22:59:13 <int-e> why all those tabs?
22:59:29 <Sgeo_> Because copy/pasted from pdf slides
23:01:28 <tswett> Hey, what should the server's hostname be?
23:04:46 <int-e> Sigh I need a faster PC so that I can build ghc in less than 20 minutes...
23:06:03 <Jafet> You just need a prescient one so that it builds ghc right before you need it to
23:07:13 <orin> or just set ascript to build the newest one when it is released
23:07:38 -!- GeekDude has joined.
23:07:46 <int-e> orin: that's not so helpful for following a git repo.
23:07:57 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PEDIATRIC CHICKEN).
23:08:35 <Taneb> New Munchkin strategy: hide the die so the damned thief can't steal your stuff
23:09:34 <int-e> Ah, Eddie the ship's computer. ("Hi there!" said the ship's computer.)
23:22:59 <Taneb> Anyway, I ended up tying a game of Munchkin
23:25:45 <int-e> oerjan: Fwiw, current head still accepts T.hs and i is not bottom, and of type Proxy (Eq Int => Bool)
23:26:24 <shachaf> whoa, Eddie the Shipboard Computer
23:26:28 <int-e> And it took 28 minutes to build, and that's without docs and only the dyn way.
23:26:41 <Taneb> quintopia, it's a D6, used for running away and stealing thingw
23:30:22 <oerjan> int-e: what about http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/TypeableExploits/ConTyp1.hs which is my attempt at what spj is _really_ trying to say, i think
23:30:59 <oerjan> (the fact i'm not actually _using_ Typeable in the posted file makes the literal interpretation nonsense)
23:31:32 <int-e> oerjan: how did you get the * and * -> * in the proxy signatures?
23:31:40 <oerjan> i am not sure whether it will work or not, it fails in 7.8 but Typeable works completely differently
23:32:19 <int-e> oerjan: g :: Proxy (* -> *) ((->) (Eq Int)) <-- there
23:32:46 <oerjan> oh -fprint-explicit-kinds
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23:33:33 <int-e> oerjan: ok, first it works in 7.10.1: j prints Eq Int -> Bool
23:34:00 <int-e> And it works in head as well.
23:34:33 <int-e> uhm. that's going through the show instance of typerep
23:34:45 <oerjan> oh wait, obviously they don't have any => handling for typerep
23:34:58 <oerjan> so it uses the default ->
23:35:02 <int-e> so that's expected.
23:35:11 <oerjan> ok then i can post that example.
23:39:08 <int-e> g :: Proxy ((->) (Eq Int))
23:39:09 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
23:39:55 <int-e> (or Proxy (* -> *) ((->) (Eq Int)) with explicit kinds)
23:40:16 <oerjan> darn do i call you int-e or Bertram :P
23:40:28 <int-e> oerjan: int-e, I have a trac account too
23:41:30 <oerjan> i get confused by everyone calling each other by real name in trac whether or not their nicks match
23:42:12 <int-e> Well I don't care much.
23:43:27 <int-e> Ah. Figured it out :)
23:48:31 <oerjan> ordinary typeREp should work for that
23:49:14 <int-e> However, typeRep (h g) does fail... I guess that was the whole point.
23:52:19 <oerjan> hm i suppose you don't need all the other variables
23:52:35 <oerjan> i (Proxy :: Proxy (Eq Int => Bool)) ought to work
23:52:54 <int-e> ghci> i (Proxy :: Proxy (Eq Int => Int))
23:58:07 <shachaf> This is the same sort of thing as what I was doing to get a TypeRep for Ord Int?
23:58:21 <oerjan> shachaf: just pointing out that you still can get hold of Typeable (Eq Int => Int) etc. in HEAD, you just need to slightly circumvent the check
23:58:54 <oerjan> shachaf: well it started as that, anyway
23:59:35 <oerjan> now they put the ability to do Typeable (Ord Int) back, but tried to disallow =>