00:03:05 * Lyka realizes that Sgeo knows em.
00:03:31 * Lyka tries to be nicer
00:03:41 * Sgeo was being a bit silly
00:03:52 <Sgeo> I asked here because I treat this place as a social area a lot
00:04:15 <Lyka> why not ask in #ubuntu?
00:04:48 <Sgeo> I did, no response. Though it was more about asking if ecryptfs questions were acceptable there, than it was an actual question
00:05:45 * oren doesnt know what ecryotfs is.
00:06:03 <Sgeo> It's the encrypted filesystem that Ubuntu uses when you encrypt your home
00:06:29 <Sgeo> Synology also seems to have some support, not sure if it's really sufficient
00:06:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/jGJX8A6D
00:07:41 <Lyka> Sgeo: did you see the language i am making?
00:10:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i shall put forward the theory that ecryptfs questions are acceptable, but that #ubuntu has a strict "don't ask to ask" policy, and you're now stonewalled forever. hth.
00:10:08 <Sgeo> Saw the impl but didn't read though it closely
00:17:18 <oerjan> Sgeo: i have confirmed my theory by noting that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines links to http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html hth
00:20:39 <oren> That faq is a bit aggressive
00:21:07 <oren> Don't ask "anyone/someone knows" questions ... the obvious aim of the question is to find someone to be your bitch.
00:21:22 <oren> um, projecting much
00:22:30 <oren> Then again, they may be channelling the living soul of Linus Torvalds
00:23:17 <oerjan> or they may have decades of experience that people do _exactly_ that hth
00:43:07 <oerjan> * Melvar wonders how one would base a neural net on beer … <-- now i'm imagining fungot as yeast-based...
00:43:07 <fungot> oerjan: iii) e is still the electee to the agreement to be changed as explicitly described in the
00:44:14 <oren> Is there a unix command that inverts the od command?
00:45:18 <oren> or more specifically od -x?
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00:47:01 <oren> oh, apparently I can use the "xxd" command
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01:03:40 <Lyka> did you try piping through tac?
01:05:43 <Lyka> does this code mean anything to you? !A000G100[01_P100G100]01_Q000@
01:06:25 <zzo38> Not quite, but, maybe we can learn.
01:06:54 <Lyka> A000 G100 [01_ P100 G100 ]01_ Q000
01:07:15 <Lyka> Assign 0x00 to a[0]
01:07:40 <Lyka> Get char from terminal and assign it to a[1]
01:08:08 <Lyka> while a[0] != a[1] {
01:08:26 <Lyka> Print char in a[1]
01:08:30 <Lyka> Get char from terminal and assign it to a[1]
01:09:00 <Lyka> } wend unless a[0] != a[1]
01:09:27 <Lyka> hard to notate the loop
01:10:31 <Lyka> does this seem worth pursuing?
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01:13:31 <Lyka> i called it mindfuck (as it is based around the code of a brainfuck interpreter), but that name is probably already taken
01:14:05 <oren> check the wiki? http://esolang.org
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01:14:47 <oren> nope, not taken
01:14:47 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/dZR0uVKC
01:15:10 <Lyka> i'm not using that name, though
01:15:43 <Lyka> i don't think i want to deprive someone of it
01:16:09 <Lyka> well, is it a good name for this?
01:17:55 <Lyka> fourfuck ? (as it uses four-character commands)
01:17:56 <oren> i'm not a nomenclatur...ologist? is that a word? well I'm not one, anyway.
01:18:27 <boily> helloren. don't be afraid of creative orthography. it's good for you, event if naysayers may deny it.
01:18:36 * boily looks at oerjan subtly
01:18:54 <boily> Hellyka. are you Lymia in disguise?
01:19:39 <Lyka> boily: is that at me?
01:20:38 <boily> yes. sorry for portmanthelloing you without warning.
01:21:06 <Lyka> i'm SchrodingersCat in disguise
01:21:11 <oren> not being a nomenclaturologist makes be unqualificationed to decide whether those are words
01:21:31 <Lyka> fourfuck it is
01:21:47 <boily> Lyka: then I need to ask you the The Question: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
01:21:58 <boily> (meanwhile, hellørjan! how's the weekend?)
01:22:40 <oerjan> boily: tired with traces of neck pain
01:23:50 <boily> Lyka: it's a standard question. the information given is of vital importance. (you can creatively reply, as is the custom of this channel.)
01:24:58 <zzo38> There are other question we can ask too though such as, how many bibles you have stolen (use Roman numerals)?
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01:25:21 <oren> boily: I'm pretty sure I just answered truthfully
01:25:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lesidhetree * New user account
01:26:48 <boily> oren: yes. it is also common. people here seem to be split in two groups.
01:27:03 <boily> zzo38: is there a Roman zero?
01:27:08 <Lyka> central new york, 100
01:27:32 <zzo38> boily: I don't know!
01:28:01 <zzo38> But I do not expect you can write zero with Roman numerals. (They might have other words for it but I don't think those are Roman numerals)
01:28:02 <oren> Maybe N for "Nullius""
01:28:48 <boily> oren: weird, I don't have your infos...
01:29:16 <Lyka> i'm lesidhetree pretty much everywhere i am not something different
01:29:38 <Lyka> SchodingersCat is my ic account
01:29:39 <boily> Lyka: filing you as Lyka. less letter to type.
01:30:00 <oren> 3.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds
01:30:05 <Lyka> just saying who the lesidhetree that just signed up was
01:30:07 <Sgeo> Hating ecryptfs more and more
01:30:18 <oren> ** 43.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds
01:30:55 <Lyka> 100 kg is not 155 lbs...
01:31:07 <Lyka> i wish i was 155 lbs
01:31:30 <Lyka> hopefully soon to be less
01:31:36 <zzo38> And, there is even more other Question too, such as, do you like mathematics?
01:31:41 <oerjan> oren: i think nullius is genitive case, probably not the right one here
01:31:59 <Sgeo> I have a question that would be appropriate for #ubuntu but the question itself is inappropriate
01:32:00 <zzo38> And also do you like Dungeons&Dragons game and All The Tropes wiki?
01:32:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: If you want te answer you might as well ask anyways; here if not there.
01:32:25 <oren> From Wiki^H^H^H^H WP, About 725, Bede or one of his colleagues used the letter N, the initial of nulla, in a table of epacts, all written in Roman numerals.[32]
01:32:37 <zzo38> Lyka: No, All The Tropes is a forked version of TV Tropes
01:32:48 <boily> zzo38: yes, maths are quite nice.
01:32:56 <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork?
01:32:58 <zzo38> oren: O, OK, thanks, now we can know!
01:33:01 <Lyka> i used to be good at maths
01:33:01 <Sgeo> Ok. Were the ecryptfs implementors drunk and/or high?
01:33:10 <Lyka> then i got drugged
01:33:30 <Lyka> (prescription)
01:33:30 <zzo38> boily: Yes. I don't like the tvtropes and neither does Damian Yerrick and neither does the people who made All The Tropes that is why it is fork. I work on the All The Tropes instead of the TV Tropes, please.
01:34:10 <oren> Sgeo: quite possibly. it's an open source project, so they don't have corporate drug testing
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01:34:46 <Lyka> i use bitocker on linux
01:34:47 <boily> zzo38: but, but... who's Damian Yerrick? why is tvtropes bad?
01:34:50 <oren> and they can work from home, so they can drink since they don't need to drive
01:34:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/scupeuev4zobaguy17ue6q
01:35:24 <oerjan> <oren> ** 43.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds <-- i was wondering what you were doing near galapagos
01:35:26 <oren> woooooooowww.....
01:35:46 <oren> Sgeo that is pretty screwy
01:36:12 <Sgeo> ls -la on the NAS in .purple's parent directory doesn't show it, but at least I can get into .purple itself
01:36:25 <Lyka> read that as NSA
01:37:37 <boily> oh well. time to disappear.
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01:38:47 <zzo38> boily: One thing is the license they change it
01:39:00 <zzo38> It isn't important here who Damian Yerrick is.
01:41:17 <oerjan> <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork? <-- there's a good argument that tvtropes has totally messed up a licensing change and is basically in massive copyright violation for everything before the change. also they deleted a lot of stuff for PC reasons. thus, forks. although i still visit tvtropes myself.
01:41:48 <zzo38> I don't; I prefer All The Tropes, which however seem don't quite work right now.
01:41:57 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork? <-- there's a good argument that tvtropes has totally messed up a licensing change and is basically in massive copyright violation for everything before the change. also they deleted a lot of stuff for PC reasons. thus, forks. although i still visit tvtropes myself.
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01:42:10 <oerjan> bloody abrupt out-chickener
01:42:11 <zzo38> But anyways, my All The Tropes is: http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
01:43:32 <oren> I used to read TVtropes in highschool, but in university I cut out a lot of internet things that were taking up my time and that was one
01:43:44 <Lyka> damn...gotta take meds
01:44:25 <zzo38> When it is fixed, then you can access it even to see the level20.tex that I made up; I also made up the RDF of the tropes of level20.tex but maybe it is a bit mistake because some of them it says is straight and I am not quite sure if it is straight or not.
01:44:54 <zzo38> The RDF of the tropes is still available though: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope
01:47:17 <zzo38> (I did write a program that can parse this file, but several other programs are also available.)
01:48:37 <oren> I think when I stopped using TVtropes they had suddenly renamed amny tropes whose names were in Japanese)
01:49:47 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know.
01:50:18 <oerjan> oren: oh right renamings too
01:51:04 <zzo38> You can tell me if you think it is straight, sideways, etc, or if there is other tropes to add in there; I will add it to the RDF even if I cannot add it to the wiki yet.
02:01:01 <zzo38> Also, the wiki software used with TV Tropes isn't as good; MediaWiki is better. And, All The Tropes doesn't need to have advertising and other stuff get in the way.
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02:15:44 <oren> For the newest version of scrip7, I'm adding the abily to mmap files into the data space
02:17:29 <Lyka> this outputs the alphabet: !A001G100G200[12[P100+011]12[Q000@AZ
02:18:21 <Lyka> is this too confusing?
02:18:46 <oren> I *think* i understan how that works
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02:19:43 <oren> [12[ is while a[1] < a[2], correct?
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02:20:05 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/weU2zgTu
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02:20:30 <Lyka> [12[ is while a[1] <= a[2]
02:20:47 <Lyka> [12< is while a[1] < a[2]
02:22:40 <Lyka> somehow i am supposed to be able to run a simple game (guess a number?) in this code on a device with 2K of ram
02:23:30 <Lyka> well, i'm planning on having a sdcard reader attached for something that big
02:28:58 <Lyka> and a serial conneection to an arduino-based gam controller
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02:58:18 <Lyka> found weird coding in an area i haven't tested yet
03:02:25 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTBlKRzNf74
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03:03:11 <Lyka> would have triggered a recursive loop had i not fixed it
03:03:18 <zzo38> What kind of interpretation of quantum is OK? There is many different kind, but I prefer, constraint interpretation and I don't like the other one much. However I believe that it must be figure out the proper way to combine quantum physics with general relativity (or else to figure out if something is already wrong with it and should be adjusted), too.
03:03:46 <zzo38> But Penrose also prefer another different kind of interpretation, and so do other people prefer different kind.
03:05:28 <zzo38> What is your opinion? Do you don't like constraint interpretation or you do like or whta else?
03:07:20 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/PrH4E6ta
03:10:46 <oren> I prefer the ensemble interpretation... It is the most empirical
03:11:37 <zzo38> Let me to look up what that one means; I forgot.
03:13:28 <zzo38> Now I looked it up.
03:15:59 <oren> Basically, it means that since our experiments that observe quantum effects are done by preparing many very similar systems, separated by space or time, we can't empirically say that quantum mechanical effects apply to single systems.
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03:21:52 <oerjan> i don't think the interpretation i prefer has been invented yet.
03:22:27 <oerjan> imo only interpretations that avoid putting hilbert space and complex numbers in a priori need apply
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03:24:06 <oerjan> they should be emergent, like classical probability is emergent.
03:24:39 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/t0NNvGwm
03:24:47 <Lyka> that's it for the night
03:25:25 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i haven't read enough interpretations to be absolutely _sure_ it hasn't been invented, but on the other hand i think if it had, it would have a great enough following that i would have heard about it.)
03:26:54 <Lyka> please let me know if you think what i am making it a stupid wast of tie
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03:28:41 <oerjan> i think if that's a concern you shouldn't be doing esolangs :P
03:28:45 <Jafet> It's actually a continuous cellular automaton with lie symmetry where the cells are folded projections of superstrings. Each cell stores an integer between -128 and 127...
03:30:31 <zzo38> I think I invented the constraint interpretation
03:32:11 <zzo38> Because, I don't quite like the other one.
03:35:17 <Lyka> oerjan: !A074A179P000P100Q000@
03:36:42 <Lyka> or is it !A074P000A079P000Q000@ ?
03:36:48 <zzo38> Universe are made out of mathematics, and some mathematics are multiple solution and/or no solution in some circumstances, but still must be constraint by physical systems. It is the part of working of "constraint interpretation"
03:37:53 <Lyka> oerjan: i was trying to say "ty"
03:38:41 <Lyka> who was the person who said we re all star-stuff?
03:39:00 <Lyka> (or was that Delenn?)
03:40:36 <Lyka> anyone who does not know who Delenn is needs to watch more Babylon 5.
03:41:41 <oerjan> i vaguely remembered it
03:42:22 <oerjan> i watched some babylon 5 back in 1996 when i was spending that half-year in the us
03:44:04 * Lyka runs the nightly backup before he or she falls asleep
03:44:15 <oerjan> i was guessing sagan but apparently it goes back further http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/06/22/starstuff/
03:44:46 * Lyka guessed sagan too
03:45:07 <oerjan> also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
03:45:16 * Lyka figures that JMS (the guy who made B5) was quoting Sagan
03:45:28 <Lyka> Perl is an esolang?
03:45:47 <zzo38> Not quite, but they do have stuff to mention there
03:45:50 <oerjan> Lyka: no but people seemed to like my poetry interpretation
03:46:42 <Lyka> perl poetry can be esolang i assume
03:47:02 <Lyka> in the same way that obfuscated c is
03:47:43 <Lyka> is this a work of art: ":(){:|:;};:"?
03:48:11 <Lyka> (do not type it into a sh prompt)
03:48:35 <Lyka> (seriosly, don't. it will crash your pc)
03:48:59 <Lyka> (and don't type it into someone else's either)
03:50:08 <Lyka> i just thought it was pretty
03:50:33 <tswett> I'm gonna go to bed. Allow me to quote one last piece of output from the neural net (consisting of two lines):
03:50:44 <tswett> 23:35:40: <oerjan> `quote directive repo
03:50:45 <tswett> 23:38:17: <HackEgo> structures: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of mord int information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of
03:50:45 <tswett> esoterica, try # * (+1)
03:51:36 <tswett> Yep, HackEgo, you sure did a good job of running the command "`quote directive repo".
03:52:03 <tswett> The last time I ran it, it printed out this:
03:52:03 <oerjan> i think that quote must have been deleted hth
03:52:18 <tswett> -> 5 -> ##############################################################################################################################
03:52:36 <Lyka> `quote directive repo
03:52:40 <tswett> All of the output from there on consisted of pound signs, except that there was one single underscore in the middle somewhere.
03:52:42 <HackEgo> 323) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice. \ 448) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 743) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker. \ 855) <Gr
03:52:46 <Lyka> `quote directive
03:52:53 <oerjan> i _think_ HackEgo can survive a fork bomb but i'm a little afraid of trying with the shitty server it has nowadays
03:54:32 <oerjan> (i think possibly it limits number of subprocesses)
03:54:53 <oerjan> or was that just EgoBot
03:58:45 <Lyka> crap...typo detected that makes my program useless
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04:02:09 <oren> `quote forkbomb
04:02:14 <HackEgo> 1025) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
04:02:18 <HackEgo> 1025) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
04:03:29 <oren> tswett: "pound sign" <- I don't call # that. I call it the hash sign or pronounce it "hashtag" for troll purposes
04:04:24 <HackEgo> 83) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
04:06:04 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
04:17:22 <Lyka> made a printout of the program
04:19:22 <oerjan> `` quote 83 | sed 's/.{40}//'
04:19:23 <HackEgo> 83) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
04:19:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to figure out the music of a record by the visual inspection of the grooves only, not by the label and so on?
04:19:38 <oerjan> `` quote 83 | sed 's/.\{40\}//'
04:19:40 <HackEgo> unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
04:20:20 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
04:21:14 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +2
04:21:15 <HackEgo> 186) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no \ 250) <fungot> oerjan: are you in an aware state when the only hammer you have is for variable assignation and blocks \ 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit
04:21:40 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +4
04:21:41 <HackEgo> 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 647) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can. \ 683) <fizzie> [...] and then you just
04:22:16 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +6
04:22:16 <HackEgo> 683) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice. \ 687) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people \ 751) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intenti
04:22:33 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +8
04:22:34 <HackEgo> 751) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse. \ 779) <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever \ 816) <fizzie>
04:33:53 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere, some physicists were trying to invent the device to communicate with ghosts but instead they invented quantum information theories? There are many instances where some people tried to invent one thing and instead invented a different thing (I think I have a book listing some of them), but this seem a bit strange way. Nevertheless it is still probably possible that someone can try such a strange thing and invent something el
04:41:22 <zzo38> I doubt anyone can really invent the device to communicate with ghosts; if it is possible at all, it seems that a device is not needed. The other possibility is there is no ghost, or else that it is really something else also that is unknown.
04:42:22 <zzo38> On a television show once, one child was claim to see and talk to a ghost but nobody else can see it; three different people had three different opinion what it is. The last one though, is a scientifically testable hypothesis because it is involving infrared and this can be tested to see if it is wrong or not.
04:42:57 <zzo38> But then you must also consider, can people change their color of vision by age and using what ways? Surely such a thing would have been studied?
04:47:33 <zzo38> Some people discuss paralell universes (probably unrelated to the above though, but who knows for sure?). One question to figure out is, can a wavefunction including multiple universes?
04:56:12 <zzo38> But this would also have to do with geometry and numbers of dimensions. Are there additional small timelike dimensions, or only spacelike?
05:03:01 <zzo38> I believe that the laws of physics *must* be made out of mathematics, no matter how strange they might be.
05:28:12 <zzo38> I do know one person who doesn't wear a watch because when she did it would go too fast, and she other electrical problems like too. I have read this before in books but did not know how true such things can be until seeing it.
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05:32:59 <Jafet> Maybe it's a wristwatch that displays one's biological clock
05:33:26 <zzo38> Do such wristwatches exist though?
05:34:14 <oerjan> did she buy it in a shop that wasn't there the previous day or the next?
05:34:33 <zzo38> No, it was an ordinary watch, and the same thing happened to other watches.
05:35:25 <zzo38> (Maybe one was bought in a shop that wasn't there the previous day or the next, but this is highly unlikely and even if true this information would have been lost.)
05:35:44 * oerjan now imagines a parallel earth which is identical in most respect but with a slightly shorter day length, and occasionally watches slip through
05:36:22 <Jafet> Don't you see, oerjan, this is where leap seconds come from.
05:37:24 <oerjan> also, people there keep wondering why they get extra socks in their laundry
05:39:00 <zzo38> I do not know if parallel universes exist, but these ideas you mention seem unlikely. Still it is possible to might explain something, but probably not those things.
05:42:05 <zzo38> I know of someone who said she had a dream where she could know on what day someone died far away actually in a few hours after the dream (I trust what she says). I did have many explanations in mind but after hearing the full story concluded that none of them worked, except for the possibility of misremembering due to confusion of dreaming, which still seems a bit unlikely here but might possibly still work.
05:47:39 <zzo38> I once observed, while standing in the room opposite the washroom, an object sitting on the toilet (the part you don't open/close; it had been there a few days already) suddenly slipped off and fell onto the floor, making noise. There was no window open, no fans on, and nobody in that room. Possibly it is due to turbulence or microorganisms or spiders or something...I don't know.
05:50:15 <zzo38> Some might say it is similar to poltergeists, but to me there is several problems with that: [1] It only happened once. [2] It doesn't explain much if you don't even know what is poltergeists. [3] I am more inclined to consider other more ordinary possibilities first before strange things like that. [4] I am not even so sure there are any poltergeists.
05:52:11 <MDude> I would think it's a cat.
05:52:26 <zzo38> There was no cat in there. If there was though, it would certainly explain it.
05:53:48 <zzo38> But I know that spider can make some web and possibly something can cause such attach thing to move a bit; and in unlikely circumstances might cause what is said there. I of course don't know how well such thing would actually work though; it is just some kind of guess.
05:56:21 <zzo38> My own opinion is that these things I reported must be published so that people can argue about it and can complain about it.
05:56:56 <zzo38> (My comments about it is part of the argument about it, too.)
05:58:52 <MDude> Maybe there was a low rumble of some sort that justled it just right?
05:59:05 <zzo38> Yes, something like earthquakes maybe
05:59:12 <zzo38> That is the other possibility.
05:59:52 <zzo38> But I think earthquakes tend to move more things usually, but still that does seem a reasonable possibility.
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06:01:46 <MDream> Cisten lids are kind of odd, all bumpy and slippery.
06:01:59 <MDream> It's hard to tell when something's going to slide on them.
06:02:27 <zzo38> I did not think so at first because nothing else like that happened at the time and nothing else like that was reported. It also didn't happen before or after that time, even though the object was sitting there for a few days.
06:02:55 <zzo38> But yes it does seem more likely for an object to slide just because of the kind of surface it is; I did consider that too actually.
06:04:03 <zzo38> On most other surfaces in the house, objects placed there for a few days are less likely to slide.
06:04:47 <zzo38> But maybe also the water inside of the toilet...I know sometimes when the water is turn on in kitchen sink and bathroom sink and so on, sometimes it is a bit erratic.
06:06:21 <zzo38> It was sitting there just fine for a few days; nobody used the toilet recently but the door was open and from a room across the hall I could observe that. Therefore, I do not know if it is best explanation but at least, any of these thing may be possible.
06:07:45 <zzo38> I do know of small earthquakes making a few objects slide off of a shelf, and have observed this; but this is when the earthquake was reported. However, maybe such earthquake is just too small to have any effect on ordinary surfaces.
06:09:06 <zzo38> And, therefore was not detected either.
06:11:04 <zzo38> But, then, you must have the way to detect by the devices designed for this purpose. Yet, we could not detect it even with such devices in the same house (but they may have been too far away from the toilet room??? or the device was defective??)
06:12:27 <zzo38> It dose still seem probably the most likely to me though, despite this.
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06:15:05 <zzo38> Nevertheless, I have never observed it at all at any other times (an object on the toilet slipping like that, I mean!), even indirectly (such as door closed), even with the fan on, window open, etc. But maybe it is too unlikely; I don't know how to calculate such probabilities of such things.
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06:21:13 <zzo38> I have read a report about a man named Home was levitating, and that trustworthy people reported and scientists of the time found no fraud; an illustration is provided. However, it look to me from the illustration that he was holding some hooks on the ceiling which are difficult to see, but, that doesn't explain how to get up there at first anyways. (Of course, just because they found no fraud at the time doesn't necessarily mean there isn't any, bu
06:23:08 <zzo38> (Nor does it mean the story is or is not entirely fictional, of course.)
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08:09:17 * Lyka coughes himself awake
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08:39:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: extra socks => http://qntm.org/socks
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09:12:30 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
09:12:33 <tswett> 20:39:09: <ais523> if a class program file. well, that's cheating until we see that they'd be called esolangs
09:14:36 <tswett> I wonder if the neural net has a generic "a bot was invoked" neuron.
09:15:05 <tswett> In these logs, someone did a !bfjoust command, to which lambdabot responded "Consider it noted."
09:20:59 <tswett> I think this is the longest syntactically correct sentence I've seen the net generate yet:
09:21:11 <tswett> 'I'm using it up to "there are many commands" as a similar language, the other one is all the experience of the contents.'
09:21:30 <tswett> Granted, the comma should be a semicolon, but using a comma there is the sort of thing a human would do.
09:21:59 <b_jonas> tswett: right, it doesn't have to generate correct sentences, but sentences we use on the channel
09:29:51 <oerjan> imo should be easy hth
09:31:14 <tswett> It does frequently produce messages ending with "hth".
09:31:47 <tswett> Whelp, I think the syntax seems to be getting better, but it's getting better really slowly.
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09:42:14 <tswett> I'm not sure if a size 300 state vector is large enough for the net to get syntax correct *and* also do everything else it's trying to do at the same time.
09:44:10 <tswett> Well, probably not. I guess English syntax is pretty complicated.
09:44:28 <tswett> It's also probabilistic. Lots and lots of things are "marginally correct".
10:00:53 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/ycwECkwx
10:02:22 <Lyka> and http://pastebin.com/TKYPGQXi
10:03:57 <Lyka> and also this: http://pastebin.com/ebdQS25X
10:04:20 <Lyka> those three are fourfuck pre-alpha v0001d
10:08:44 <int-e> fungot: what do you have to say about ycwECkwx?
10:08:44 <fungot> int-e: if a judgement other than the nth-highest bid ( at the start of
10:11:21 <Lyka> who is fungot?
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10:15:00 <Lyka> does the thing i pasted make any sense to you yet?
10:15:47 <tswett> Mmm, lemme take a look here.
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10:17:54 <tswett> Lyka: it looks like there's no way to access a computed tape location.
10:18:33 <Lyka> explain so i know what to add
10:19:57 <tswett> Well, there doesn't seem to be any way of accessing, say, tape[cache[(1)]].
10:20:04 <Lyka> oh, but can you not load it into cache and access it there?
10:20:54 <Lyka> well, it's a work in progress
10:21:37 <Lyka> should have enough ters left
10:22:28 <tswett> I'd say this looks a lot like machine code.
10:27:07 <Lyka> !A00DY000Z000Q000@Hello, World!
10:27:37 <Lyka> (inclde the carraige return in the code)
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10:46:29 <sushe> is there anybody out there
10:47:06 <sushe> so this is about sprituality etc?
10:47:34 <Lyka> esoteric programming languages
10:48:51 <sushe> nah i've never heard of an esoteric language
10:50:32 <sushe> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH ArnoldC
10:52:14 <sushe> really some of this is pretty cool
10:52:38 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:52:52 <sushe> my first time using irc going to play around a bit more
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11:08:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43035&oldid=42636 * Rdococ * (+60) /* Game */ A programming language in which programs are court trials.
11:27:16 <Jafet> Objection-oriented programming
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11:56:31 <rdococ> could not have put it better myself
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12:00:46 <rdococ> I'm working on a specification for an objection-oriented language.
12:11:54 <rdococ> oh nevermind someone else can do it
12:16:40 <Jafet> The wright language for all language lawyers.
12:20:14 <int-e> wrought with peril
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12:28:22 <rdococ> "language lawyers" lol
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12:28:41 <rdococ> I'd prefer a more... (edge)worthy language
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12:44:46 <rdococ> *awkwa-- objectionable silence*
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12:49:03 <rdococ> stop this objectionable silence
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12:51:02 <rdococ> what do you mean by nah?
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12:51:45 <Taneb> I don't feel like stopping this objectionable silence
12:57:48 <rdococ> I object to your belief that the chatroom is still silent.
12:58:02 <rdococ> because I'm talking duh
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13:06:05 <int-e> rdococ: are you certain? I can't HEAR you!
13:10:57 <rdococ> int-e: we're not in PW vs PL are we?
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13:13:47 <int-e> rdococ: well if we are then I don't know where we are.
13:16:55 <int-e> It's pure logic, the same kind of logic that allows Granny Weatherwax to say "elephant" without thinking of one.
13:17:43 <rdococ> I wouldn't trust the defendant, she might be thinking of one
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13:27:26 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0
13:27:44 <Lyka> just the command list
13:29:32 <Lyka> lowercase letters are arguments
13:29:55 <Lyka> underscores are wildcards
13:30:48 <Lyka> and i just fixed a typo
13:32:54 <Lyka> so, does this mae sense?
13:33:18 <Lyka> i mean, make enough sense
13:39:17 <oren> You could put it on the wiki, although it doesn't have a page rating system so it's hard to point out examples of well documanted lanaguages
13:39:42 <Lyka> it's not ready yet
13:39:58 <Lyka> i still need to add a few things
13:40:22 <Lyka> i'm just taking a break o breathe
13:40:33 <oren> I added a lot of stuff to scrip7 a few weeks or months after I put it on the wiki.
13:41:06 <Lyka> it's not complete, i mean
13:41:21 <Lyka> maybe in a few days
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13:44:29 <Lyka> wanted to make sure the curent command name format looked okay
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15:08:18 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32865248 :(
15:08:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
15:09:17 <Taneb> It'll last at least into July
15:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i really want to see the homestuck i got into end, but it turned into something else entirely
15:30:45 * Lyka is coughing stuff up
15:30:52 <Lyka> just started using nasacort, but had another ill-timed coughing fit right after, requiring a blowing of the nose...
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15:39:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stackstack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43036&oldid=42098 * T.J.S.1 * (-2) edit the other reference to the interpreter page ._.
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15:47:12 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0 http://pastebin.com/pEfdTYz0
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15:51:54 <oren> Lyka: if it is something like pollen in the air, try wearing a medical mask
15:52:19 <Lyka> coughing into a mask?
15:52:43 <oren> no to keep the pollen out of your air
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15:53:18 <oren> I do it at my grandparents' because they have dogs
15:56:47 * Lyka puts on the apap's nose-mask and prepares to rest
15:57:45 <Lyka> i have sleep apnea
15:58:48 <Lyka> how should i put a placeholder on the wiki?
16:01:10 <Lyka> i mean, i should probably make a page for th language, but what do i link it to?
16:15:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43037 * Lesidhetree * (+412) First version of page. (I have never edited a wiki before, so this page needs a lot of work...)
16:16:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43038&oldid=43033 * Lesidhetree * (+15) /* F */ Added Fourfuck to the list
16:18:13 <Lyka> wha does the (+412) and (+15) mean on thouse two lines from HackEgo about my edits?
16:18:52 <Lyka> oh, character count
16:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43039&oldid=43037 * Lesidhetree * (+5) Request for help with formatting added.
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16:48:32 <Lyka> ais523: !A048SOB0A049SOB0@
16:49:55 <ais523> Lyka: that's an interesting typo
16:50:14 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0 http://pastebin.com/pEfdTYz0
16:50:57 <Lyka> In fourfuck, it ould have outputted: HI
16:53:07 <Lyka> fourfuc is ready enough to be on the wiki but not ready enough to have any more than a near-blan page
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17:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43040&oldid=43027 * Ais523 * (+162) /* Why the reserved characters? */ correction
17:23:36 <ais523> HackEgo's doing the wiki announcements?
17:25:03 <Taneb> It has been for a while
17:27:41 <ais523> that seems so weird, given that HackEgo's normal job is very different from that (in particular, it involves a sandbox)
17:28:35 <oren> well hackego's server is the same computer as the wiki's iirc
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17:55:59 <fizzie> ais523: That's because of lazy. In particular, there was a really easy way to make HackEgo (technically, multibot) say something, and they're on the same box. There's a socat|stuff|socat shell-oneliner to receive the UDP from the wiki and write it to HackEgo.
17:56:44 <ais523> although I guess each update fits in one packet so most of the UDP failure modes won't matter
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17:57:03 <fizzie> That's what MediaWiki uses. Well, that and something more complicated.
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17:58:25 <fizzie> http://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds supports UDP and Redis Pub/Sub as engines.
17:58:37 <b_jonas> ais523: this thing you mentioned about underload, implementing the flip from the other primitives, is a nice puzzle. at first I thought it was impossible (despite that there's an implementation) and I had an explanation for why it's impossible:
18:00:57 <b_jonas> the drop, dup, list, apply operators only read the topmost element of the stack, so the first time you read the original second topmost element, it has to happen with the concat operator. when you apply the concat operator, the original second topmost element has to be parenthisized, otherwise you can't recover it later.
18:03:10 <b_jonas> but to parenthisize that value, you have to use the list operator, which needs it on the top of the stack. you can't flip anything below the second topmost element, because you're not allowed to use the flip operator. thus, you have nowhere to store the orignal topmost element of the stack when you list the second topmost element.
18:03:19 <oerjan> i see the error: apply can read more elements than the topmost one as a side effect
18:03:20 <b_jonas> but it turns out this argument doesn't work.
18:03:37 <b_jonas> you can store the topmost element in the execution stack
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18:04:31 <b_jonas> you can list the topmost element twice, then flip the topmost element with a _constant_, then concat and do other transforms, then apply,
18:05:10 <b_jonas> to get something on the execution stack that contains the original first element twice,
18:05:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: flipping with constants is indeed the essential step on the way to solving the whole problem
18:05:50 <b_jonas> and drops it the first time so it can access and list the original second element.
18:06:13 <b_jonas> this doesn't give a complete solution, but at least shows that you can't prove impossibility this way.
18:06:24 <b_jonas> I should perhaps try to synthetize a full solution some day.
18:07:32 <b_jonas> Underload is still very counterintuitive to me.
18:08:00 <b_jonas> Sure, there are proofs that it can do anything, but it doesn't look like it can.
18:08:28 <ais523> b_jonas: a useful Underload construction is (some commands here)~a*^
18:08:50 <ais523> that basically stores the top stack element in the execution stack while you do something else
18:10:28 <b_jonas> I know it's really just upvalues, but this whole concept of storing a pointer to arbitrary runtime data on the execution stack seems alien.
18:12:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: next: fueue hth
18:14:00 <oerjan> just replace stack with queue, and watch sequencing get really annoying, but still possible
18:17:14 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:17:45 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:17:57 <int-e> `rev wisdom/welcome
18:17:58 <HackEgo> ).ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF( .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
18:18:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/on irc.*/on EFnet or DALnet.)/' wisdom/welcome
18:18:47 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:23:32 <oerjan> huh i didn't know the origin of the name EFnet was this hilarious
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18:32:11 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
18:33:05 <b_jonas> Is it known how much it limits underload if you're not allowed to grow the data stack over 100 elements? 3 elements? 2 elements?
18:34:54 <b_jonas> I think 100 elements would still give you the full power.
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18:36:02 <oerjan> i'd imagine much less would be enough
18:37:05 <oerjan> you can encode a stack as nested programs
18:37:51 <oerjan> 2-3 might get awkward :P
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18:41:22 <oerjan> ^ -> ^^, : -> :a~^~!a*
18:45:04 <ais523> oerjan: I have a feeling that the minimum required stack size is either 2 or 3
18:45:16 <ais523> with 1, : doesn't work, and thus obviously it's sub-TC
18:45:34 <oerjan> well : is the sticky one there
18:46:04 <ais523> I'm thinking of representing a stack as a list of cons cells
18:46:16 <oerjan> ais523: um that's what i did above
18:46:30 <oerjan> i get :()^ with 3 elements afaict
18:46:34 <ais523> well yes, it's the obvious way to do things
18:50:10 <b_jonas> sure, but I don't want just TC, I want efficiency, as in, O(n log n) interpretation time of a pointer machine (with immutable cells) program that runs in O(n) time provided the data types and register count is constant.
18:50:14 <oerjan> ~ -> ^~^(a~a*a)~a*^a* or thereabouts
18:50:39 <b_jonas> two-counter machine with exponential slowdown just doesn't cut it for me, and I'd like to avoid even quadratic slowdown
18:50:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: there's no exponential slowdown, i think this is linear in fact
18:51:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, the exponential slowdown is when you can only interpret :^()
18:51:17 <ais523> well, it depends on what computational order the various Underload commands have, doesn't it?
18:51:35 <oerjan> b_jonas: i just added ~, gives you a TM
18:52:06 <oerjan> that might be using 4 cells
18:53:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can implement underload in such a way that you take only amortized constant time for each operation, but I'm not completely sure. I'll have to think about the details.
18:53:20 <oerjan> it might be that * will give some slowdown, if the encoding isn't efficient.
18:53:27 <b_jonas> I should write an interpreter for that.
18:53:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I wrote an interpreter derlo which worked a bit like that; however there are some combinations that I don't think work
18:54:13 <ais523> like :(foo)~*, I'm not convinced that can be impled in amortized constant time
18:54:23 <ais523> and if it can be, it'll require crazy GC abilities
18:54:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: you should implement parenthisized lists as the kind of trees like data Tree = Empty | NonEmpty NonemptyTree; data NonemptyTree = Singleton Value | Concat NonemptyTree NonemptyTree;
18:54:49 <oerjan> hm right * and ~* requires you to be able to construct efficient deques
18:55:06 <b_jonas> that can interpret concatenation in constant time, though the problem is, you also have to decons trees efficiently, so it might not be enough
18:55:22 <b_jonas> in the worst case, you could use a finger tree representation, for that also gives you efficient decons
18:55:37 <oerjan> i don't think that has constant time concatenation?
18:55:51 <b_jonas> ok, I'll have to think more about this
18:56:11 <b_jonas> I don't think the gc is a problem, the gc can be done as amortized constant time (it may have to be a bit real world slow for that, but still)
18:57:15 <b_jonas> But I think just those plain trees would work.
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18:58:01 <b_jonas> You'd then represent the data stack as a plain list, and the code stack as a list of trees, with the assumption that they're actually flattened on the code stack.
18:58:29 <b_jonas> No wait, the code stack as a list of nonempty-trees
18:58:36 <b_jonas> you avoid pushing empty trees on it
18:58:51 <b_jonas> you execute a singleton tree by executing the operation in it,
18:59:09 <b_jonas> and execute a Concat by replacing it on the stack with its two children.
18:59:14 <atriq> The slides for my computability and complexity course say "Theorem (There need not exist a fastest TM): There is a decidable language L such that for every TM M accepting L, there is a TM M' such that L(M') = L(M) and the time complexity of M' is in O(log(time complexity of M))
18:59:28 <atriq> I don't understand this, can anyone explain?
18:59:28 <b_jonas> I think that's still amortized time constant provided that the memory use doesn't grow unbounded, because you run fewer of the latter ops than the former.
18:59:47 <atriq> Apparently it's from Sudkamp's Languages and Machines
18:59:51 <atriq> Which I don't have access to
19:00:23 <b_jonas> As in, if the code stack grows infinitely, you might still be screwed.
19:00:47 <b_jonas> Hmm wait, this might not work.
19:01:05 <b_jonas> It might have a quadratic slowdown. Damn.
19:01:19 <b_jonas> No, I think it might work.
19:01:24 <b_jonas> Dunno, I'll think about it later.
19:01:46 * oerjan thinks about leaving the thinking to y'all
19:02:28 <b_jonas> atriq: that sounds strange.
19:02:54 <atriq> Hence why I'm asking about it
19:04:51 <ais523> well, that sort-of implies that for any TM accepting the language, you can find an infinite number of TMs accepting it, each logarithmically faster than the one before
19:05:06 <ais523> which in turn implies to me that there are complexity classes so high that you can logarithm them repeatedly without making any difference
19:05:21 <ais523> this last statement doesn't seem impossible to me, given how asymptotic performance works
19:06:28 <atriq> b_jonas: here is how it is written in the slides: http://i.imgur.com/azjEQBD.png
19:07:06 <b_jonas> it should be a language that is very slow to compute, such as perhaps not even primitive recursive
19:09:06 <ais523> yep, it has to be something which has absolutely terrible performance
19:09:39 <atriq> This seems impossible to me... I don't get how it could work
19:09:59 <ais523> actually, a tetration has performance bad enough to stand up to any finite number of logarithms
19:10:13 <ais523> (x tetrate n = x^(x tetrate (n-1)))
19:10:44 <Sgeo> I wasn't even aware Nash was still alive
19:11:01 <ais523> this doesn't solve the problem by itself but makes it very plausible that such a thing could exist
19:12:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think he got the Abel prize this year...
19:13:06 <oren> Well, it torns out you can lower a computer's idle temperatrue by 40 degrees with nothing more than a can of air
19:13:29 <atriq> Decompressing air is cold
19:13:41 <b_jonas> oren: sure, running the computer in vacuum is a very bad idea, because the computer uses air cooling
19:13:42 <oren> i mean even after you stop using it
19:13:52 <b_jonas> always run your computer in an atmosphere
19:14:06 <b_jonas> the air isn't just for your use, it's for the computer too
19:14:21 <oren> in this case, having an atmosphere mostly of dust is a bad idea
19:14:44 <b_jonas> but don't leave the vacuum there
19:15:47 <Sgeo> Just in case anyone wasn't aware: Was, past tense. He died in a car crash
19:18:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: eep. i just got to that part of the logs.
19:18:54 <oren> I like the fact that puppy linux displays your battery in milli ampere hours
19:19:11 * Sgeo doesn't see him mentioned in the logs, unless the codu logs are bad
19:19:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: Taneb linked to the news without naming him
19:19:52 <b_jonas> I've seen him mentioned on other channels
19:20:11 <atriq> I was going to put something in the topic
19:20:14 <ais523> oerjan: Ubuntu's extended battery details shows the battery charge in watt hours, also the voltage
19:20:21 <ais523> so we could calculate it from there
19:21:23 <oerjan> a beautiful mind is one of the very few movies i've decided by my own to watch in the cinema
19:21:49 <atriq> oerjan: was it a good film? I haven't seen it
19:22:25 <oerjan> it was a decade or so ago and i'm not really sure
19:22:48 <oerjan> i read afterward it took some liberties describing his disease
19:23:07 <atriq> The last time I went to the cinema was... Friday
19:23:09 <oerjan> (he didn't really see things visually)
19:24:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: nice. I think Despicable Me 2 is the only such film for me.
19:25:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The chanteau | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
19:26:07 <atriq> (I quite like going to the cinema)
19:27:07 <oerjan> please change the topic again if you think that was bad taste
19:28:26 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I think that's fine.
19:28:49 <b_jonas> It might not be a very good joke, but it's definitely not in bad taste.
19:42:55 <oerjan> oh today'd darths & droids is a round number
19:43:03 <oerjan> (y'all should know what this means)
19:51:01 <oerjan> "•David Attenborough is known (barely) for doing voiceovers for poorly selling computer games, but gains widespread fame after his appearance in the first Futurama movie." OKAY
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19:55:19 <zzo38> Once I noticed the logs you complain about people who try to use AmigaMML where public domain is not acceptable and that they will not accept CC0, Unlicense, WTFPL. I am not really sure it is possible; WTFPL allows you to do whatever you want and that includes if you don't want to accept the license therefore you have accepted it anyways and are in compliance with the license anyways. If you change the text of WTFPL without changing its name too tha
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19:57:32 <oerjan> zzo38: your line got cut off after "its name too tha"
19:58:20 <zzo38> If you change the text of WTFPL without changing its name too that is a violation, but only of the licence of the licence, not of the licence of the software.
20:01:48 <int-e> Meh, a self-referential license...
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20:03:53 <int-e> (The conditions for the license itself are longer than the license proper. So useless...)
20:07:24 <int-e> zzo38: In any case, a license is a legal agreement; it takes two parties to make it effective. So of course one can reject the WTFPL, CC0, and Unlicense terms with regard to your software.
20:07:38 <int-e> And thus I might end up in a situation where I cannot legally use it.
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20:18:27 <zzo38> int-e: But then if you use it anyways aren't you implicitly trying to agree somehow?
20:21:42 <int-e> It would probably be hard to build a case against me. ;)
20:23:33 <zzo38> And anyways I am not going to sue you for it; I can't, because I put it in public domain.
20:25:27 <int-e> I have no idea whether this works. It doesn't around here.
20:27:05 <int-e> It's effectively possible anyway; the only person who could possibly sue for copyright infringement is you.
20:29:59 <b_jonas> Hmm, can you sue yourself if you have split personality?
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20:33:26 <b_jonas> might depend on the country of course.
20:33:37 <b_jonas> more likely to succeed in the USA than in Europe.
20:49:12 <zzo38> Some people argue about what kind of FOSS licenses to use. For simplicity, I can suggest that if it is just a project you do by yourself and isn't a business project or whatever, a simple permissive license (or public domain) will do OK. However, if you are making free software to be sold/supported/etc by a business (this includes hardware sales), I would suggest GPL3 which provides a lot of the protections you would need.
20:49:45 <zzo38> (Note: I assume you aren't making a software library to be included in other products. If you are, you can still use GPL3 and provide an alternative commercial license, I suppose.)
20:50:03 <zzo38> (There are companies that do this, in fact.)
20:50:35 <MDude> One thing I don't like about GPL3 is the clause that lets people update from that to whatever other license the FSF passes in the future.
20:51:12 <zzo38> Actually I think that depends whether or not the software says it is allowed or not. As far as I know, you could even allow it only by proxy.
20:51:21 <atriq> MDude: you do not have to include that
20:51:40 <zzo38> For business protection you may want to use the "proxy" decision.
20:51:52 <b_jonas> MDude: no, I think that optional
20:52:01 <MDude> That'd be good, then.
20:52:02 <zzo38> (I don't know if true or not though)
20:52:35 <b_jonas> I for one prefer non-copyleft licenses
20:52:57 <MDude> The AGPL I'm not really interested in, just because I don't know how agressively someone could force audits on people they suspect run AGPL code on their servers.
20:53:25 <MDude> Which sounds like it could turn kind of witch hunty.
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20:54:04 <zzo38> I too tend to use non-copyleft for my own software these days (specifically, public domain), for simplicity. I have no problem to contribute to or use ones that are GPL though.
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21:04:31 <int-e> b_jonas: googled a bit; for Germany, you'll have a hard time finding anything to sue yourself over; for example, you cannot enter into legal agreements with yourself.
21:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <b_jonas> Hmm, can you sue yourself if you have split personality?
21:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously not, the legal system has contingencies for when the mentally ill get involved
21:05:42 <int-e> the law is unsympathetic to that notion, they're all the same natural person.
21:06:08 <zzo38> Can you put two MIDI signals (one in each direction) and power in one direction with RJ-45 connectors?
21:06:55 <MDude> You could make a corporation and order it to sue you, maybe?
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21:07:59 <oren> Yeh that oughta work
21:08:28 <int-e> but you cannot incorporate all by yourself.
21:08:49 <int-e> (still talking about Germany, obviously this depends on the jurisdiction a lot)
21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you can make a corporation at all in the uk
21:09:20 <ais523> there's a list of people suing themselves somewhere, let me find it
21:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> they're only made by appointment from the queen or something
21:09:57 <ais523> here: http://www.loweringthebar.net/autolitigation/
21:10:04 <oren> wjat about a john doe suit where the actual perpetrator was you?
21:10:49 <int-e> You can't sue yourself in criminal law, the state (district attorney, whatever) is suing.
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21:13:17 <ais523> int-e: if it's criminal law, there's no suing going on at all, just prosecution
21:18:13 <int-e> right, that's a vocabulary failure on my part
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21:25:37 <zzo38> Is it legal for Sony to sue themself for putting malware in audio CDs?
21:25:56 <zzo38> (Which won't even play on their own CD players!)
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21:28:36 <oren> This laptop has a port on it with symbol IOIOI
21:28:58 <oren> some kind of male connector
21:29:12 <oren> what would that be for
21:29:27 <b_jonas> oren: serial port I believe
21:30:47 <oren> yeah that's what it is
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> is it just kind of sticking out of the main body of the laptop
21:31:11 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_port
21:31:17 <oren> it looks like that
21:31:30 <oren> it is in a recess
21:33:08 <tswett> The neural net has successfully produced a pretty long message that's arguably structurally correct:
21:33:09 <tswett> 23:44:06: <pikhq> I found a reasonable collatz file of the string, but it's a link to the point of const void and get an array, but I don't really know why it'd be a bit surprised if the problem is a command-line, but it's pretty much less you and the sum of the fact it's a limited length.
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21:35:14 <b_jonas> neural net: it's called "pointer to const void", not "point of const void"
21:35:22 <b_jonas> but maybe pikhq wouldn't know that?
21:38:26 <tswett> No, you see, there's... a bad thing happening, and there are a bunch of solutions that they're trying, each one more desperate than the last.
21:38:40 <tswett> The absolute last resort solution is to use const void.
21:38:59 <tswett> pikhq is talking about what will happen when they finally get to the point of const void.
21:39:04 <int-e> John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/
21:39:31 <pikhq> That does not even sound like something I would say though. :)
21:40:10 <tswett> John Nash has completely decayed into electrons, protons and photons?
21:40:13 <int-e> It doesn't matter. As you can see, I really liked the "collatz file" :)
21:40:57 <zzo38> Do you know how to do MIDI in ways like I mentioned? How fast can it be in such case?
21:41:40 <b_jonas> tswett: no, there's neutrinos too
21:42:07 <tswett> Right, right. Electron antineutrinos.
21:43:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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21:43:57 <tswett> Ah, wait, do muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos decay?
21:44:38 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: thanks, I forgot to add /topic somehow.
21:45:14 <tswett> No, I think they don't.
21:49:21 <tswett> And how about the second and third generation quarks, what happens to those?
21:50:48 <tswett> Looks like they just decay.
21:51:31 <tswett> So John Nash would have completely decayed into electrons, protons, electron antineutrinos, maybe muon and tau (anti)neutrinos, and maybe some other stuff.
21:52:21 <b_jonas> You know that there are atoms that are pretty stable, right? There's huge balls of iron made of them.
21:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> he'd decay into electron antineutrinos which would immediately start oscillating into an even mix of all 3 kinds
21:54:03 <b_jonas> And they're quite old too.
21:57:13 <oerjan> you people are so picky
21:58:05 <oerjan> i have a hard time restating that equilibrium as something that's both technically correct and didn't apply equally much before ... oh wait
21:58:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
21:58:34 <tswett> So the neutrons in iron don't decay?
21:59:48 <oerjan> the big question is whether protons decay at any time scale
22:00:27 <oerjan> hm let me find that wikipedia page again
22:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, in fact if a neutron in iron-56 turned into a proton it'd just decay straight back into a neutron
22:04:42 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe#Future_without_proton_decay
22:04:52 <oerjan> that's some weird stuff
22:06:35 <oerjan> so basically, remaining matter will first turn into iron, then into black holes
22:09:16 <fizzie> Nice time range there, "10^(10^26) to 10^(10^76) years". Really narrows it down.
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22:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if loader's number is bigger than TREE(3). probably not
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22:38:23 <tswett> http://googology.wikia.com/wiki/Loader%27s_number - it's bigger than TREE(3).
22:39:42 <tswett> I'm guessing that D(1000000) is smaller than TREE(3) for reasons of proof strength.
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> the TREE sequence is uncomputably fast-growing, which is what throws me
22:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i certainly remembered it being so, but looking now i can't find anywhere that actually says so
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> "The growth rate of D(n) corresponds to the proof-theoretic ordinal of higher order logic. This is much, much larger than any computable ordinal notation has reached" dear god
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23:17:54 <zzo38> I found another bug in my RDF Turtle parser and now I have fixed it. It wouldn't accept the words "true" and "false" if immediately followed by a full stop without a space in between.
23:19:17 <zzo38> This is because in the parse_prefix function I wrote: if(ind && buf[ind-1]=='.') { buf[ind-1]=0; pushchar(cur,'.'); } but it is supposed to be: if(ind && buf[ind-1]=='.') { buf[--ind]=0; pushchar(cur,'.'); }
23:23:01 <izabera> but if we put the hammer in an elevator...
23:39:00 <tswett> Whelp, I'm gonna stop training the neural net. It's already producing some pretty nice results.
23:39:13 <tswett> And I don't feel like cooking my laptop any more.
23:39:43 <zzo38> I don't know what it is if you are going to put Thor's hammer in the elevator.
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23:41:20 <izabera> it's just a quote from the latest avengers movie...
23:41:51 <tswett> 22:22:45: <int-e> `` sed 's/^^-c:'
23:41:52 <tswett> 22:22:45: <HackEgo> [U+0640 ARABIC LETTER U] [U+A664 FULLY SIGN] [U+20CE LEGSGRAPE]
23:42:50 <ais523> assuming that's uninitialized memory, it's lucky that it picked a couple of Unicode characters with such silly names
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:27:51: <oerjan> `run perl -e '(':|' \ $_...
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:24:02: <HackEgo> [U+FEFE DONTINUALAY CURSERENT THIS ALE CAVOIG THINK
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:30:38: <Taneb> Anyway, anyway
23:48:08 <tswett> All right, I'm gonna paste this stuff.
23:48:17 <tswett> Anyone got a pastebin handy which wraps lines when displaying them?
23:49:39 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:51:40 <tswett> Actually, a place where I can permanently host a 100 kilobyte text file?
23:52:15 <tswett> Maybe gist will do the trick.
23:57:35 <tswett> All right, here it is:
23:57:36 <tswett> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/tswett/2a5baafbb3807be9ff09/raw/a04903833ab54f043b22030d56d20b47d87b57a1/Random+%23esoteric%20logs