00:19:07 <zzo38> I like the Caesar salad without dressing on, at some places; at other places the salad isn't as good.
00:21:02 <quintopia> it's not a caesar salad if it has no dressing.
00:21:35 <quintopia> sort of like it's not a caesar salad without dried salted anchovy
00:21:56 <quintopia> you can call it "Caesar" salad. a Caesomorph.
00:22:27 <zzo38> I just put lettuce, cheese, crouton, that's good enough
00:22:43 <quintopia> i'm not judging shachaf. there's nothing wrong with a "Caesar salad". it's just not as good as it could be.
00:23:20 <shachaf> Whichever the way the wind blows, / Whichever the way the world goes, / Is perfectly all right with me!
00:30:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43183&oldid=43178 * 173.25.21.218 * (+0) fixed a small error
00:32:38 <oerjan> <zzo38> "Created" isn't even the right word, but there aren't any better words! <-- istr hebrew has a special word for "create" that _only_ applies to God hth
00:33:17 <zzo38> O, it does? I don't know Hebrew language much
00:33:24 <oerjan> so in hebrew, it's by definition the right word, but it might not be entirely clear what it means.
00:34:16 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that.
00:34:28 <oerjan> i don't know hebrew much either but i've seen it discussed somewhere.
00:37:53 <boily> quintopia: I don't think I've ever had the real deal. is it good? is it worth it?
00:38:26 <boily> (whichever your answer, probably going to try it out of sheer curiosity.)
00:55:13 <zzo38> When I try to open a .XI file with multiple samples in OpenMPT, it automatically discards the samples that aren't used in the keymap. How to fix this?
01:37:53 -!- Herbalist has joined.
01:56:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43184&oldid=43115 * Esowiki201529A * (+142) /* Underload to Gibberish */ new section
01:59:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43185&oldid=43184 * Esowiki201529A * (+84) /* Underload to Gibberish */
02:00:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
02:01:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: JAVANESE CHICKEN).
02:02:37 -!- Maria has joined.
02:04:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43186&oldid=43185 * Esowiki201529A * (+36) /* Underload to Gibberish */
02:07:50 -!- Maria has left.
02:20:58 -!- hilquias has joined.
02:21:20 <oren> My custom scaler is pretty much done now
02:25:04 -!- KnightArm0 has joined.
02:35:23 -!- KnightArm0 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:37:58 <zzo38> What is that custom scaler?
02:38:44 -!- lemurian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:42:23 <oren> A customized sclaing alcorithm for emulated games
02:42:34 <oren> I'm modding it into mednafen
03:04:35 <zzo38> Finally I got vector synthesis to work properly in AmigaMML and XISYNTH.
03:09:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:25:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:26:03 -!- gde33 has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:05 -!- shikhin has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:05 -!- nortti has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:05 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:05 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:11 -!- nortti has joined.
03:26:14 -!- TieSoul has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:15 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split).
03:26:22 -!- ineiros has joined.
03:26:23 -!- atehwa has joined.
03:26:30 -!- TieSoul has joined.
03:26:30 -!- olsner has joined.
03:26:40 -!- shikhin has joined.
03:27:04 -!- gde33 has joined.
03:29:38 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
03:41:48 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
03:45:42 -!- Wright_ has joined.
03:45:42 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:50:26 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
03:50:39 -!- Lyka has left.
04:00:59 -!- adu_ has joined.
04:03:01 -!- augur has joined.
04:04:11 -!- Herbalist has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:05:13 -!- augur_ has joined.
04:08:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:08:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
04:24:59 <oren> AAAAAA I can't get diagonals to work properly!
04:27:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
04:27:39 -!- password2 has joined.
04:28:17 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/5xgtpmiqh/
04:30:31 <oren> ^ screenshot using my scaler, and the palette 77ccff 77cc00 007700 000000 ffcccc cccc00 990000 111100
04:32:08 <oren> it mostly looks ok, but I csn't figure out a good rule to make X look right
04:32:18 -!- password2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:38:55 -!- lemurian has joined.
04:39:59 <oren> does anybody have an idea how to detect a patern like that?
04:41:34 -!- password2 has joined.
04:53:13 -!- Nihilumbra has joined.
04:58:34 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
04:58:34 <zzo38> Do you have anything to add here? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/XM_optimizations
04:58:39 <zzo38> (Or anything to remove?)
05:00:34 <zzo38> Isn't it explaining it in there?
05:00:49 <Nihilumbra> Also Please don't assume I ever actually leave the channel anything that follows a name mention is logged down for 2 hours afterwarsa
05:02:12 <Jafet> oren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling#2%C3%97SaI look interesting
05:10:44 <Nihilumbra> file reduction without dataloss zzo38 ?
05:12:16 -!- Decim has joined.
05:14:56 <Decim> Oh yeah I forgot irc still worked it was having bugs
05:15:23 <zzo38> Nihilumbra: Yes, to reduce a XM file size while the music will still be same way.
05:16:02 <Decim> or I was because I couldn't log because I forgot my password
05:16:41 <Nihilumbra> That does sound useful because dataloss is very annoying at times
05:17:59 <zzo38> Do you work with .XM musics at all?
05:18:08 <Decim> I have to go to bed
05:20:27 <zzo38> It is a file format that many game programs that expect music will support (together with .MOD, .IT, and .S3M), first made up in a DOS program called Fasttracker. There are other programs too; the wiki I just linked also has another page to list some other such programs.
05:21:25 <Nihilumbra> I shall go research it in a bit but I'm making dinner and coffee
05:21:53 <zzo38> You have dinner and coffee at 11:38 PM?
05:21:54 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
05:22:16 <Nihilumbra> I never actually get around to stuff until around the late hours
05:23:47 <Nihilumbra> I've Become addicted to magic the gathering and I'm worried about this because I usually hate card games
05:24:21 <zzo38> I have made up several Magic: the Gathering cards too and also a few puzzles for Magic: the Gathering. If you have any of your own puzzle I want to see that too.
05:25:46 <Nihilumbra> I have a reanimation deck made of eldrazi's and eldrazi lords
05:26:08 <Nihilumbra> and a rainbow deck built around door to nothingness
05:26:27 <zzo38> I have no cards or decks
05:26:44 <Nihilumbra> oh and now I get all these puns abour magic that have been on the tv
05:26:55 <zzo38> Mark Rosewater made up some Magic: the Puzzling some time ago, and now other people made up new ones
05:27:35 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 and also puzzle.2 and puzzle.3 in the same directory.
05:27:43 <zzo38> Those are some puzzles.
05:27:51 <Nihilumbra> sometimes my msgs don't send on screen
05:28:10 <zzo38> (If you want solutions, they are called solution.1 and so on; you should first try to figure out by yourself though.)
05:29:35 <zzo38> I would buy more Magic: the Puzzling from Wizards of the Coast if they sold more, but they don't
05:30:35 -!- Decim has quit (Quit: Onii-chan you're the best especially when you touch my breast).
05:30:40 <zzo38> As far as I know they only made one book, but there were others in issues of the Duelist magazine.
05:31:10 <zzo38> I am not interested in buying any cards but I would buy more Magic: the Puzzling.
05:31:42 <Nihilumbra> Should I drink this coffee or take a shower
05:33:19 <Nihilumbra> setting up dwarf fortress while my chicken is cooking
05:34:33 <Nihilumbra> oh and http://i.imgur.com/1yx1LXR.jpg I wonder if this would work
05:36:16 <zzo38> I can play Pokemon card too
05:39:27 -!- adu_ has quit (Quit: adu_).
05:39:35 -!- lemurian has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!).
05:46:43 <zzo38> Can you figure out any of my puzzles?
05:47:33 <Nihilumbra> but I'm not using solutions because I want to get through this
05:52:46 -!- password2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:35:33 <zzo38> In mahjong what rules do you prefer dealing with whether or not the dealer can continue after a draw, and about whether or not the dealer is forced to continue?
06:36:20 <coppro> I prefer tenpai renchan
06:36:28 <coppro> agari yame for casual play, but not for a tournament setting
06:38:29 <zzo38> I like to use tenpai renchan for east round, and for south round the dealer continues after a draw regardless of tenpai or no-ten. At least, this is how I always play when I get to make these kind of decisions
06:38:31 <coppro> and tenpai yame is fine
06:38:37 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
06:39:04 <coppro> zzo38: interesting. I know of only two locations which use that renchan rule
06:39:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:39:45 <zzo38> Which locations is that?
06:40:23 <zzo38> (It also seems to be the rule for Washizu mahjong mode on Akagi DS)
06:41:26 -!- sebbu has joined.
06:42:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
06:42:08 -!- sebbu has joined.
06:45:51 <coppro> zzo38: Montreal and Waterloo
06:49:12 -!- lemurian has joined.
06:58:20 -!- J_A_Work has joined.
07:13:04 -!- Wright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
07:33:28 <Taneb> I had a dream that my parents won a house in a lottery but it was only half built
07:35:11 <lemurian> there is quite the potential to look at symbolism there
07:39:07 <Taneb> So I suggested we sell the house and our current house to buy a slightly better house
07:42:25 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
07:42:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
07:43:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
07:43:07 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
07:43:43 <Jafet> According to linguists, "Santa Claus has all the attributes of a sadist"
07:43:47 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic#Formalizing_natural_languages
07:45:18 <Sgeo> Is -w 1 likely to be sufficient for wgeting from some random webserver somewhere
07:45:30 <Sgeo> I think the files are intended to be downloaded, not sure about in bulk like this
07:45:40 <Sgeo> I put my email in the UA
07:47:45 <Jafet> That sounds unwise
07:48:03 <Jafet> If you're concerned though, use the rate-limiting option
07:48:41 <Sgeo> I am, at 1 item/second
07:49:34 <Jafet> Hmm, I don't remember if wget's speed limit is done correctly for multiple files
07:51:13 <Sgeo> Well, it's faster than it was at 5 seconds/item
07:51:24 <Sgeo> And slower than when I didn't have a limit (for a small portion)
07:52:00 <Sgeo> The webmaster is likely someone interested in VRML, so it could start a conversation
07:54:11 <Sgeo> It... seems to be the archives of someone who themselves scraped from a server many, MANY years ago
07:55:55 -!- Nihilumbra has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
08:29:38 -!- toxolotl1 has joined.
09:47:56 -!- hjulle has joined.
10:00:53 -!- J_A_Work has quit (Quit: J_A_Work).
10:06:26 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
10:10:38 -!- J_A_Work has joined.
10:21:49 -!- boily has joined.
10:42:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:51:54 <mroman_> Although in J they are called dyadic
10:52:03 <mroman_> but I distinguish between prefix dyadic und infix dyadic
10:52:31 -!- evalj has joined.
10:59:38 <Taneb> Is a duad just a bimonoid in the bicategory of duendofunctors?
11:03:19 <mroman_> which is (min(1,2)+max(1,2))
11:05:21 <mroman_> ,:,"1m2+"1M2R{,p+p is reduce(range(0,(min(1,2)+max(1,2))), \a b -> a + b)
11:09:52 <mroman_> mainly because whether m is an Operator or the Variable m depends on the context
11:12:59 <mroman_> Taneb: is there even such a thing?
11:13:34 <J_A_Work> This is fundamentally one of my weaknesses with inventing really esoteric sort of languages: I would never remember a scheme like that, even if I designed it myself.
11:13:43 <J_A_Work> I barely remember how my own code works sometimes.
11:14:04 <boily> I guess sadly bimonoids aren't such a thing, because a·b·c is associative.
11:14:31 <boily> J_A_Wellork. remembering what you own code does is one of the Greatest Achievements a programmer can reach.
11:14:47 <mroman_> J_A_Work: I seem to be able to remember such things quite well.
11:15:25 <mroman_> I can still golf in it without having to look up the language reference most of the time
11:16:11 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, it helps that you invented it so you assigned the primitives such that you already remember their names
11:16:22 <b_jonas> it's hard to golf for everyone else
11:16:24 <J_A_Work> Well, part of it is that over the years I’ve come to realize I have genuine problems with my memory.
11:16:44 <b_jonas> even with the docs, because they're hard to read
11:17:23 <mroman_> "Defined as \/bxcy\/z[{p^+]e!}m[" <- you're referring to those things?
11:18:09 <mroman_> I could have written descriptions for those + giving their definition (because knowing the *exact* definition is very important to abuse sideeffects)
11:19:04 <mroman_> "Defined as x/Shx/\/x/x/\/P[" is my favorite
11:19:16 <mroman_> because x/ is not a regular swap :D
11:19:31 <mroman_> this builtin contains so many freaking swaps
11:19:36 <mroman_> (\/ is a regular swap though)
11:20:33 <mroman_> J_A_Work: My memore is very selective :D
11:20:52 <mroman_> but it's quite good at remembering things you wouldn't really need to
11:21:05 <mroman_> but if you ask my memory what I did this saturday you're out of luck.
11:22:40 <mroman_> In Burleqsue j2 is the builtin j + integer 1 whereas b2 is the builtin b2 :p
11:23:43 <boily> mroman_: when was the last Saturday you had?
11:26:24 <mroman_> and I was probably working
11:27:17 <mroman_> I remember watching Stargate Atlantis
11:27:46 <mroman_> at least according to netflix I'm at episode 6 now
11:28:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: not just those definitions, but that it's hard to search for even things that do have good short descriptions
11:29:34 <Taneb> Oooh, a talk on semigroups tomorrow
11:29:38 <Taneb> I know about semigroups
11:29:39 <b_jonas> like when I couldn't find the primitve that pops a single element and makes a box from it containing the single element
11:30:12 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HELIOTROPIC CHICKEN).
11:32:42 <mroman_> also ops of the Group Dyadic2 can either be infix or prefix
11:39:14 <mroman_> it tries to parse them prefix first, then infix
11:39:28 <mroman_> but 1 isn't a legal operator so in that case you can use infix notation
11:42:12 <mroman_> "Box|bx|Any a|Put a in an empty block"
11:42:58 <b_jonas> it says "empty" whereas the box isn't empty, so I didn't find it
11:43:07 <b_jonas> it should say "singleton" or "length 1" or something
11:43:27 <mroman_> after you put a into an empty block the block isn't empty anymore :)
11:43:51 <b_jonas> do you mean it conses an element before an empty block?
11:44:40 <mroman_> you can delete elements from a block
11:45:21 <b_jonas> can you keep multiple references to a block, delete elements from the block through one reference, and see that change when read from another reference?
11:45:33 <mroman_> an implementation could do some reference counting and using copy-on-write or perform the operation on the same structure if no other references are found
11:45:53 <b_jonas> modifying them might be an optimization, sure
11:46:02 <mroman_> you could make them semi-mutable under the hood
11:46:21 <mroman_> instead of copying the whole thing when duplicating stuff like that
11:46:44 <mroman_> I'm not sure how ghc optimizes/handles those things
11:47:59 <mroman_> if I had implemented it in C I would have kept track of references.
11:48:20 <mroman_> because you only need to copy-on-write if there are other references around. Otherwise you don't need to copy it.
11:48:40 <b_jonas> std::shared_ptr can do that, it has a member function to tell if there's only one reference
11:48:53 <b_jonas> (basically it reads the reference count)
11:54:42 <b_jonas> "The past keeps getting cooler! (And there's more of it every day!)" http://www.xkcd.com/1104/
11:55:35 <mroman_> I've heard dinosauriers are actually just large chikens
11:57:09 -!- toxolotl1 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
11:57:16 <b_jonas> we should add that as wisdom
11:57:54 <mroman_> `learn Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
11:57:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'dinosaur': Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
11:58:25 <b_jonas> that Asimov short story confirms this by the way
12:12:40 -!- tromp_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:21:57 <mroman_> Chickens lay eggs, Dinosaurs lay eggs therefore Dinosaurs are Chickens.
12:22:30 <mroman_> Chickens move on two legs, Humans move on two legs therefore Humans are also Chickens.
12:22:45 <mroman_> except that we don't have a gyroscopically stable head
12:22:48 <mroman_> that would be somewhat cool
12:31:45 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
12:47:44 -!- TieSoul has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
12:49:09 -!- TieSoul has joined.
12:59:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
13:08:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
13:08:30 -!- J_A_Work has quit (Quit: J_A_Work).
13:30:54 -!- nycs has joined.
13:31:42 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v.
13:41:36 -!- Wright has joined.
13:49:48 <coppro> anyone know any hilarious lets play videos I can put on in the background?
13:59:28 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
14:01:18 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:02:56 -!- Wright has joined.
14:09:42 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
14:12:06 -!- GeekDude has joined.
14:19:07 -!- SopaXT has joined.
14:19:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:24:17 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:35:28 -!- coppro has joined.
14:48:49 -!- Welo has joined.
14:50:43 -!- lemurian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:51:07 -!- lemurian has joined.
14:51:49 <coppro> `run unicode "LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE ACCENT"
14:53:21 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:53:45 -!- coppro has joined.
15:03:13 -!- Lorenzo64 has joined.
15:05:01 -!- lemurian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:09:58 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
15:14:54 <mroman_> do I need annotations without postfix ...
15:25:04 -!- Welo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:30:51 <b_jonas> what do you mean "tar (child): compress: Cannot exec: No such file or directory"? just decompress it with gzip you stupid tar
15:31:02 <b_jonas> (luckily an explicit -z helped)
15:35:41 -!- Herbalist has joined.
15:38:46 -!- tromp_ has joined.
15:43:15 -!- lemurian has joined.
15:48:43 <mroman_> If that doesn't work I give up.
15:49:32 <int-e> tar xzf here, j for .tar.bz2, J for tar.xz
15:51:15 * int-e wonders what using tar xf vs. tar -xf says about a person. probably nothing :)
15:51:47 -!- Welo has joined.
15:53:34 <mroman_> Of course there's also squeeze
15:55:05 <HackEgo> tar: You must specify one of the `-Acdtrux' or `--test-label' options \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
15:55:15 <HackEgo> The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
15:56:05 <mroman_> b_jonas: -a makes it guess the compression program
15:56:09 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:57:32 <b_jonas> mroman_: these days, it always guesses the compression program without anything special (though that only works if the input is seekable)
15:57:48 <b_jonas> mroman_: I generally write tar tvf for all kinds of compressed tarballs
15:57:52 <b_jonas> that works for gzip and bzip2
15:58:03 <b_jonas> but here, for a unix-compressed one, it tried to invoke compress
15:58:10 <b_jonas> which I don't have installed
15:58:26 <b_jonas> it could have just invoked gzip instead, which can read unix-compressed files
16:00:28 <mroman_> or we could have used a gui program, like the noobs we are
16:00:36 <mroman_> I do that from time to time.
16:15:28 -!- Lorenzo64 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:20:58 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
16:28:04 -!- Welo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:52:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:59:46 -!- password2 has joined.
17:08:20 -!- Welo has joined.
17:11:46 <ski> zzo38 : .. actually, my brother also keeps saying that it should be `d(dy/dx)/dx', but not `d^2y/dx^2' (in general)
17:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i did explain the idea behind the d^2y/dx^2 thing last time
17:25:11 <coppro> so is all of my thesis
17:25:20 <coppro> and in fact the entire field
17:32:28 <zzo38> Yes, I agree that d^2y/dx^2 is wrong.
17:34:30 <zzo38> It is d(dy/dx)/dx but you can also expand that into a more complicated form
17:34:41 <b_jonas> coppro: wait... do you have a thesis about calculus?
17:34:46 <coppro> b_jonas: no, graph theory
17:35:52 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:37:46 <zzo38> For tar I just use "tar t" or "tar x" or "tar c" though
17:39:14 <b_jonas> c is different. if you're creating an archive, you have to explicitly tell how to compress of course
17:39:22 <b_jonas> doesn't guess in that case
17:39:36 <zzo38> I don't want it to compress. I will use an external program to compress.
17:40:05 <b_jonas> it's just convenient for me that tar can invoke the external program
17:40:57 <zzo38> To me, there is no good reason for tar to invoke external programs. (For some programs this is useful, but not for tar)
17:41:51 <b_jonas> well, there's one case when it's essential
17:41:59 <b_jonas> but not the compression case
17:42:20 <zzo38> Which case do you mean?
17:42:48 <b_jonas> it lets tar periodically invoke a program, passing some environment variables, that lets me print a status message of how far tar has got
17:42:59 <b_jonas> so I can see an approximate percentage progress when making large archives
17:43:15 <b_jonas> it's approximate because I can only give an approximate to the final size
17:44:02 <b_jonas> but it still works well enough in most cases, except when I give a very wrong estimate because I don't count linked files, but tar recognizes them and packs them only once
17:44:11 <zzo38> Can't a pipe do that too though, if you have a "checkpoint action" program that can invoke the other program (and otherwise just copies input to output)?
17:44:49 <b_jonas> (that comes up most often when I back up a directory with git executables, which has like a hundred files linked to a large executable)
17:44:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I guess that could work too
17:56:52 -!- a2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:57:16 <Taneb> I am very much enjoying this book "How Not To Be Wrong: The Hidden Maths Of Everyday Life"
17:59:51 <zzo38> You can use quotient rule to expand "d(dy/dx)/dx"
18:05:23 <shachaf> Taneb: how many hidden maths are there
18:08:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, what sort of things does it discuss?
18:09:56 <zzo38> Are you able to check for me on https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml exactly which permissions a logged in user who is not a member of the project is having?
18:12:03 <zzo38> Do you know if the "Roadmap" feature of Redmine can be turned off? I am not using that feature in my project. There is a list of modules to enable/disable, but that isn't one of the choices.
18:12:04 <Taneb> shachaf, all of them
18:12:15 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm currently at "Don't assume curves are lines"
18:23:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:24:43 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:29:42 <oren> How much macros is too much macros?
18:30:32 <oren> I have like, 40 in this thing
18:32:44 <oren> basically, my sclaing algorithm is based on matching patterns against the local pixels... so I make macros that llow me to write the patterns directy into the code
18:33:14 <coppro> ais523: can you recommend a good, funny LP to watch?
18:34:04 <ais523> coppro: LP = Let's Play? I'm not sure, because I tend to go for informative rather than amusing
18:34:27 <ais523> basically what I do is pick a game I want to learn more about, and then look through a few LPs on YouTube until I find one that doesn't irritate me
18:34:40 <ais523> any blind Let's Play of Wario Land 4 makes good watching
18:34:44 <ais523> I look for those every now and then
18:34:53 <ais523> but it's not particularly funny, it's not like it's a particularly rage-inducing game or anything
18:34:54 -!- password2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:34:59 <ais523> I just like seeing how people solve it
18:35:10 <oren> Wario land 4 one of my favorite games ever
18:36:37 <coppro> I really enjoyed 3 too
18:37:14 <ais523> the best way to think about the Wario Land series is
18:37:29 <ais523> 2 and 3 are all liked by over half of players but seriously disliked by a proportion of others
18:37:37 <ais523> 4 is amazing and hardly anyone dislikes it
18:37:48 <ais523> 5 is basically 4 but a bit worse, but that doesn't make it a bad game because "4 but a bit worse" is still good
18:37:55 <ais523> and nobody can remember what 1 is lijke
18:38:01 <coppro> I wasn't aware there was a 5
18:38:32 <ais523> coppro: it's on the Wii, and called "Wario Land: Shake It!" or "Wario Land: The Shake Dimension" depending on localization
18:38:40 <ais523> and it's one of the most painfully obvious 4 clones ever
18:38:53 <ais523> with level design that's a little less inspired, and a different but arguably more interesting moveset
18:39:02 <b_jonas> ais523: are the unskippable cutscenes part of why some people hate wario land 2 or 3?
18:39:13 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean in the gameplay
18:39:21 <b_jonas> wait, is this the gameboy or the nes games?
18:39:29 <ais523> there isn't a nes wario land
18:39:38 <ais523> there's a virtual boy version that's apparently really good but hardly anyone has played it
18:39:45 <ais523> (normally considered to be the /only/ good game on the virtual boy)
18:40:12 <b_jonas> no surprise because nobody has a virtual boy
18:40:33 <b_jonas> if it's the only good game than that's understandible
18:40:37 <ais523> yes, that's because it only has one good game
18:40:54 <b_jonas> most consoles have multiple good games
18:41:13 <ais523> I know, even the unpopular ones
18:41:19 <coppro> wario land 3 was fun because of the way you had to explore old levels
18:41:31 <ais523> the virtual boy was just basically a terrible idea though, it was an attempt to make a 3D games console before the technology for that existed
18:41:45 <b_jonas> coppro: um, you can explore old but changed levels even in wario land 1
18:42:34 -!- qlkzy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:42:54 <coppro> b_jonas: you can't in 2 and I don't think you can in 4?
18:43:00 <coppro> and I've never played 1
18:43:15 <ais523> coppro: you can replay old levels in 4 but there's no reason to unless you missed collectibles
18:43:23 <ais523> except for fun of course
18:43:59 <coppro> we're talking about 3 where it's part of the game, though
18:44:32 <b_jonas> coppro: in wario land 1, completing some zones can change old levels significantly, so it can be worth to explore them again. you don't strictly have to if you're not going for the best ending, but I think there are collectibles you can access only after a level has changed.
18:44:52 -!- qlkzy has joined.
18:47:49 -!- Tritonio has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:48:09 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:51:16 -!- Elronnd has changed nick to Elron7zz\.
18:51:29 -!- Elron7zz\ has changed nick to Elronnd.
18:52:26 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:55:16 -!- Elronnd has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer).
18:57:05 -!- Elronnd has joined.
18:58:35 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:03:38 -!- nys has joined.
19:07:22 -!- Tritonio has joined.
19:11:16 -!- relrod_ has joined.
19:11:24 <HackEgo> substructural typing/Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
19:11:31 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
19:11:56 <HackEgo> firefly/FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
19:12:19 <Taneb> That is annoyingly true, but I guess is actually about channel regular FireFly ?
19:12:40 <ais523> huh, I've actually worked with substructural subtyping, I think
19:13:44 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
19:14:05 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
19:14:36 -!- relrod has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:14:50 <FireFly> Taneb: the channel regular isn't actually a TV series, I think
19:14:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
19:15:04 <Taneb> FireFly, are you sure
19:16:16 <FireFly> `` rnooodl <<<'this is a test'
19:16:23 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
19:16:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ngevd: No such file or directory
19:17:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:17:22 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
19:17:28 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
19:17:53 <FireFly> Seems a bit excessive to pipe all wisdom through it
19:17:53 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
19:18:21 <fungot> FireFly: got url? it does almost no computation.
19:18:47 <HackEgo> )XCT5JSЈ3^_C9Um.VovR\\FFʂH-/e&[58lGD{2Vwa.>J*(bEhD*9@R7Dԛv|c_.SydNKXST4ϕኴEn_.hjƎeO=A[qD,M,$i;.6-^1JI2"\XY˯M̲~@CǛbKkˑ%](@ؿчN~vymFJfPqHیe%1^?LA$̀
19:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i should put it back to being a symlink to /dev/urandom, someone's sure to explain it again then
19:19:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, was causing issues with `pastewisdom
19:19:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
19:19:29 <Taneb> Which was getting to Ngevd then dissolving into random garble evermore
19:19:54 <FireFly> perhaps fix pastewisdom instead
19:20:17 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
19:20:59 <fizzie> It was also causing issues with people doing anything wisdom/*.
19:21:05 <fizzie> Like ad-hoc grepping through.
19:21:14 -!- idris-bot has joined.
19:21:25 <fizzie> Or computing statistics, or whatnot.
19:24:16 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
19:24:36 <HackEgo> indexed monad/Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
19:25:44 <Melvar> Sigh. ^[%/H didn’t work.
19:27:34 <HackEgo> fternooner/fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
19:27:36 -!- relrod_ has changed nick to relrod.
19:30:18 <HackEgo> anana/ananas is the real pineapple.
19:30:41 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
19:31:22 <shachaf> java sounds like a Tanebvention to me
19:31:42 <oren> `le/rn / is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters.
19:32:54 <FireFly> «quotes» are at least better than ”quotes” and »quotes»
19:33:30 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Finnish_and_Swedish we have the silliest quotation marks
19:33:32 <oren> someone should make a whitespace expansion that uses all the invisible characters in unicode
19:34:04 <shachaf> `? ../../../../../../etc/passwd
19:34:04 <HackEgo> ../../../../../../etc/passwd? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:35:39 <shachaf> Oh, it doesn't even exist.
19:35:44 <shachaf> And you can give absolute paths.
19:36:21 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
19:37:05 <HackEgo> /hackego/canary? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:37:13 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
19:45:19 -!- YokeOfIdea has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:47:42 -!- YokeOfIdea has joined.
19:55:01 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:56:06 -!- atrapado has joined.
19:58:33 <ais523> the canary is /executable/?
19:58:39 <ais523> wait, that's a wisdom entry
19:59:09 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 6 16:20 canary
20:01:07 <Taneb> "The natural logarithm is the one you always use if you are a mathematician or have e fingers"
20:02:15 <fizzie> The "trick" of "exploiting" `? via absolute paths is kind of amusing, given HackEgo.
20:04:38 <HackEgo> cat: ?: No such file or directory
20:04:44 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/?: No such file or directory
20:05:05 <HackEgo> / \ /proc/irq/9 \ /proc/irq/8 \ /proc/irq/7 \ /proc/irq/6 \ /proc/irq/5 \ /proc/irq/4 \ /proc/irq/3 \ /proc/irq/2 \ /proc/irq/1 \ /proc/irq/0 \ find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ /proc/1 \ /proc/1/task/1 \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permi
20:05:17 <ais523> double escaping here we go
20:05:22 -!- olsner has left ("Leaving").
20:05:22 <int-e> fizzie: as you can see there's nothing HackEgo knows about exploits
20:05:30 -!- olsner has joined.
20:05:45 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
20:06:18 <HackEgo> bin/` bin/̊ bin/! bin/? bin/¿ bin/' bin/@ bin/؟ bin/ bin/e bin/h bin/q ibin/c ibin/k quines/c quines/q wisdom/` wisdom/ wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/☃ wisdom/⊥ wisdom/⌨ wisdom/ wisdom/🐐 wisdom/ wisdom/1 wisdom/a wisdom/å wisdom/Å wisdom/c wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/ø wisdom/Ø wisdom/u
20:06:23 <fizzie> Oh, int-e changed the canary.
20:06:32 <fizzie> I was so confused, it was chirp not long ago.
20:06:49 <int-e> fizzie: just checking ;)
20:06:58 <olsner> the canary tells you when the mine is broken
20:07:09 <HackEgo> willkommen/Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
20:07:29 * int-e doesn't know the history of the canary file, is it worth checking?
20:07:41 <fizzie> It's not terribly interesting.
20:07:45 <ais523> int-e: try to delete it
20:08:01 <fizzie> It's been chrip, tweet, foo, and now cough. And also empty.
20:08:14 <ais523> its defining feature is that it exists
20:08:25 <ais523> but you can change it arbitrarily otherwise
20:08:30 <int-e> well at least it's changed a bit over time... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/0c6f3ec8633b/canary
20:08:43 <ais523> `` ln -sf canary canary
20:08:48 <HackEgo> ln: `canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:08:52 <fizzie> Oh, and it's been "now this file will be strangely hard to empty completely" for a while.
20:09:04 <ais523> why won't ln let me make a symlink that points at itself
20:09:11 <ais523> `` ln -sf canary temp-canary
20:09:20 <ais523> `` mv temp-canary canary
20:09:21 <HackEgo> mv: `temp-canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:09:35 <ais523> wait, is it making a /hardlink/?
20:09:42 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:10 temp-canary -> canary
20:10:33 <ais523> `` mv temp-canary looptest/canary
20:10:46 <ais523> `` mv --target-directory=. looptest/canary
20:10:53 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:12 canary
20:11:14 <ais523> `` (cd looptest; mv --target-directory=.. canary)
20:11:19 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:12 canary
20:11:31 <ais523> I wonder if the canary being a symlink is impossible for the same reason it can't be deleted
20:11:36 <ais523> `` (cd looptest; mv --target-directory=.. canary; ls -l ../canary)
20:11:37 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:13 ../canary -> canary
20:11:45 <ais523> yes, I guess that's it
20:12:02 <fizzie> I could check, but it might be a "-f test", kind of.
20:12:13 <ais523> yep, that's probably what it is
20:12:22 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
20:12:27 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:13 canary
20:12:30 <ais523> shachaf: see, it didn't work
20:12:32 <shachaf> Why would it give you a "same file" error?
20:12:44 <ais523> it shouldn't, they're different files
20:12:55 <ais523> and it didn't when I expressed it in terms of --target-directory
20:13:12 <int-e> so ... if the canary is gone, hackego doesn't commit the changes?
20:14:16 <fizzie> `` (rm canary; ln -sf canary canary; ls -l canary)
20:14:18 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:15 canary -> canary
20:14:29 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:16 canary
20:14:44 <ais523> wait, you can link a nonexistent file to itself?
20:14:52 <ais523> just not overwriting one that already exists?
20:15:05 <ais523> (I mean, I know you can syscall-wise, this is about what ln will and won't do)
20:15:10 <pikhq> The contents of a symlink are actually an arbitrary string.
20:15:12 <fizzie> I'm guessing that might just be some kind of a very narrow and explicit check. Although nobody's trying to prevent multi-step loops, so...
20:15:18 <pikhq> ln does not validate the arguments.
20:15:28 <ais523> [21:10] <ais523> `` ln -sf canary canary
20:15:29 <pikhq> (ln *may not* validate the arguments. :))
20:15:29 <ais523> [21:10] <HackEgo> ln: `canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:15:37 <ais523> pikhq: HackEgo's ln disagrees with you
20:15:55 <ais523> perhaps this was some generic "same file" which was added to all the GNU utilities
20:16:03 <ais523> without checking to see if it actually made sense
20:16:05 <HackEgo> ln (GNU coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Mike Parker and David MacKenzie.
20:16:06 <pikhq> HackEgo's ln is incorrect.
20:16:14 <fizzie> It's the same as my ln.
20:16:25 <ais523> admittedly I didn't know GNU for certain
20:16:33 <shachaf> `` rm canary; mkdir canary
20:16:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
20:16:44 <ais523> but it was a good guess, partly based on probability, parltly based on the fact that it quotes like `this'
20:16:52 <fizzie> shachaf: The reasons for that message are ridiculous.
20:16:53 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 8 20:18 canary
20:17:01 <fizzie> ais523: I puzzled that out; it's the two-step commit.
20:17:06 <shachaf> fizzie: I think we've discussed them before.
20:17:09 <fizzie> ais523: Although I've forgotten the details.
20:17:14 <ais523> fizzie: so what is canary /actually/ in the FS?
20:17:33 <fizzie> But the message is confusing, because it's from the second iteration.
20:17:57 <ais523> `` ln -s .. canary/canary
20:18:03 <ais523> now it's a directory that contains itself
20:18:08 <ais523> that's about as close as I can get to what I was aiming to do
20:18:31 <ais523> could we exploit this to delete the canary
20:18:47 <Elronnd> a directory that contains itself doesn't work
20:18:52 <fizzie> I think not, because from what I recall, the second iteration is strictly for the output.
20:18:57 <ais523> `` ls canary/canary/canary/canary
20:18:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ twolines \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom
20:19:04 <olsner> `` ln -d canary/test canary
20:19:04 <Elronnd> Programs will complain about "too many of symbolic link"
20:19:04 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `canary/test': No such file or directory
20:19:12 <olsner> `` ln -d canary canary/test
20:19:13 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create hard link `canary/test' => `canary': Operation not permitted
20:19:13 <ais523> `` ln -sf . canary/canary
20:19:14 <HackEgo> ln: `.' and `canary/canary/.' are the same file
20:19:25 <ais523> `` ln -sf . canary/canary
20:19:32 <ais523> `` ls canary/canary/canary/canary
20:19:34 <shachaf> fizzie: Did that hg bug ever get fixed?
20:19:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I've forgotten the details of that, too.
20:20:03 <shachaf> So have I, but you filed a bug about it.
20:20:21 <fizzie> Ohh. That rings a bell.
20:20:27 <shachaf> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-request/3/fix-repository-cleanup-wrt-spaces-in-paths/diff
20:20:44 <int-e> ah, 2012 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever finish your Magic: The Gathering software?
20:20:53 <fizzie> I wrote some kind of a patch, but there might have been some uncertainty whether it was throgouh enough.
20:21:30 <shachaf> 2012 was before I ever played Magic: The Gathering.
20:21:43 <shachaf> I think zzo38 had a programming language based on it or something.
20:22:50 <int-e> shachaf: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt
20:23:17 <shachaf> I believe you but I wonder why you brought it up.
20:23:19 <int-e> but I actually found it interesting because the idea is still around
20:33:16 -!- gde33 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:47:35 <tswett> I just realized. Performing mathematical proofs using restricted axioms is cross-platform development.
20:52:57 <ais523> I like how profound that statement sounds
20:58:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:00:45 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:03:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:03:26 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, and in theory it could be useful for portability if we meet alien species that have developped mathematics before they learnt it from us
21:14:06 <tswett> Aliens who, for some reason, developed a type of mathematics besides classical mathematics.
21:16:46 <tswett> Perhaps they consider negation to be a very strange and advanced concept.
21:21:22 <tswett> If I met an alien, and found that they didn't know about "our" mathematics, I would wonder why the heck not.
21:21:35 <pikhq> There's only so insane they can get without losing physics.
21:22:22 <tswett> Though I wonder how mathematics would have developed in a universe with no concept of space or quantity.
21:22:36 <pikhq> (all bets are off if we meet said alien species in a context where they're not likely to have cause for much in the way of physics)
21:23:17 <tswett> It's not too hard to imagine a universe with no concept of space. It's harder to imagine a universe with no concept of quantity.
21:23:29 <tswett> Rather, a universe where the concept of quantity is relatively useless.
21:24:01 <tswett> Maybe it would be a universe where everything is unique, and so it doesn't make any sense to have "two of something".
21:25:06 <tswett> And where whenever you divide things into classes, there are necessarily infinitely many classes and infinitely many things in each class.
21:26:17 <tswett> How about a universe that's very small, and so it doesn't contain very many of anything? There are still quantities, but all of them are very small.
21:26:49 <tswett> Like a universe consisting entirely of two incorporeal people.
21:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> what about a universe where everyone is a humanities student
21:28:58 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:35:10 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:54:42 <shachaf> `le/rn universal property/Universal properties are the best.
21:54:44 <HackEgo> Learned «universal property»
21:55:52 <HackEgo> monads/Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
21:56:27 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
21:57:10 -!- Wright has joined.
21:58:04 <Taneb> tswett, while I can imagine an alien culture having much of the same mathematics as us I cannot see it having the same notation
21:58:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: exactly. and even if they have the same mathematics actually, but with very different notation, we have to prove rigorously that the two mathematics are the same,
21:59:07 <b_jonas> like, prove that their integers are exactly the same as our integers, etc.
21:59:21 <b_jonas> That's where the portability comes in.
21:59:43 <b_jonas> And very often, the two mathematics won't be the same, but only equivalent.
21:59:48 <lemurian> it might be a completely diferent system, based on qualities and influence, perhaps and less on quantity as something is quantifiable
21:59:54 <b_jonas> And you have to find and prove what the equivalences are exactly.
22:00:48 <b_jonas> I for one also think that they'd probably have our mathematics, but it might take a lot of time to figure out how their notation corresponds to ours and find the equivalences.
22:01:51 <lemurian> i would like to believe that an advanced culture doesnt have the need for such complexity in their number systems
22:02:15 <Taneb> lemurian, unfortunately, we are the most advanced culture we know about
22:02:52 <lemurian> that's a head strong assumption to say humanity is the most advanced culture,
22:03:26 <Taneb> It's certainly the most advanced culture that I know about
22:04:10 <lemurian> same here, but then again our exposure to off-planet culture is virtually non-existant,
22:06:10 <Taneb> My point is, our sample size of advanced cultures is 1
22:06:31 <Taneb> The only assumption we can make of that is that the way we do things is certainly a way to do things
22:07:02 -!- variable has joined.
22:07:10 <Taneb> So it stands to reason that another advanced culture could do maths in a similar way to us
22:07:29 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:07:37 <Taneb> And as people have probably thought very hard about this, other ways to do mathematics seem not to really exist
22:07:55 <lemurian> eh, i feel it's deeper than just thinking really hard
22:07:58 <Taneb> Or at least not be particularly useful
22:08:27 <b_jonas> lemurian: I didn't necessarily say off-planet
22:08:38 <b_jonas> I include alien future species on Earth
22:09:09 <b_jonas> it's not very likely that we'll meet such species, and even if we will, they might have learnt maths from us
22:09:22 <b_jonas> I'm just saying I don't insist on off-planet
22:10:31 <b_jonas> Taneb: the important part isn't that other ways of doing maths doesn't exist, but that we believe that our way of doing maths actually exists, up to equivalence
22:12:57 <lemurian> which begs to imply perhaps the physical world which humanity has designed and been architect to, our physical world is only as good as the math systems behind it, and behind any number system are beings who give meaning to that number system, it's as if we are creating mathmatics all of our own projections based on the belief in those systsms as they are agreed upon between beings
22:13:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:14:07 <Taneb> b_jonas, doesn't our way of doing maths trivially exist?
22:15:51 <nys> the key question is whether you can be productive without pythagoras
22:16:10 <Taneb> I think the answer to that is also trivially yes
22:16:11 -!- Herbalist has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2).
22:16:15 <ais523> Taneb: we don't know it's internally consistent
22:16:24 <Taneb> ais523, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist
22:16:57 <Taneb> The wrong answer is still an answer
22:17:27 <lemurian> one two thre, one of something, then two of that something, and so on
22:17:38 <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:17:50 <lemurian> or the influence of that individual item being quantified
22:18:21 <ais523> `addquote <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:18:21 <lemurian> i believe so Taneb, it would just look different
22:18:23 <HackEgo> 1242) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:18:31 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's not the way of doing maths that matters here, but the maths we got. the question is whether that maths exists, as in, that it's always existed and we're just discovering it, rather than inventing something new.
22:18:39 <b_jonas> always existed as in timelessly
22:19:45 <Taneb> Ugh, this is dangerously close to philosophy
22:20:12 <zzo38> I would think, whatever alien monsters are studying mathematics, must figure out the same kind of things although it might come out in an entirely different way, completely different notations (if there are any notations at all!), and perhaps might not consider natural numbers as "natural", but it is still going to be the same natural numbers even if it isn't "natural".
22:20:34 <zzo38> Nevertheless natural numbers are a common thing that can get in the mathematics
22:21:41 <zzo38> (For example in category theory you have the finite discrete categories, which add, multiply, exponent just like they are natural numbers.)
22:22:24 <zzo38> At least, that is my opinion. (I don't know everything, either.)
22:22:59 <ais523> zzo38: I find that nonnegative integers are the most common sorts of numbers that I find naturally arising out of esolangs
22:23:07 <lemurian> its good to philosophize and konversate
22:23:12 <ais523> (I don't like saying "natural number" beacuse that's ambiguous)
22:24:03 <HackEgo> 1241) <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
22:24:22 <ais523> that's a good quote, because I didn't realise the pun at the time
22:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well obviously, they're the free monoid on one variable
22:24:56 <ais523> I think some people might have different opinions of "the easiest thing that exists"
22:25:03 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I know some who would argue that they are in fact the free semigroup on one variable
22:25:12 <b_jonas> If you want to go more specific, my belief is that the first chapters of the Book is an introduction to mathematics in a way that's equivalent to ours, though it might be using very different notation, and of course later chapters of the Book contain mathematics in all other notations too.
22:25:19 <ais523> OK #esoteric please tell me whether monoids and semigroups are the same thing or not
22:25:24 <b_jonas> It even contains mathematics that isn't too natural.
22:25:32 <b_jonas> ais523: I think they aren't
22:25:35 <ais523> I've seen multiple opinions on each side
22:25:36 <Taneb> ais523, monoids are semigroups that have the property of identity
22:25:39 <ais523> if they aren't, then what is the difference?
22:25:46 <ais523> wait, semigroups don't have an identity?
22:26:11 <b_jonas> so is it an overloaded term like "ring" where some people assume an identity
22:26:12 <ais523> so they're basically just things that are associative and have no other properties?
22:26:22 <ais523> rings have two identities :-P
22:26:32 <Taneb> Rings half precisely 1.8 identities
22:26:41 <variable> b_jonas: possibly; I've never heard it said that semi-groups have identities, but wouldn't be shocked if people assume it
22:26:45 <zzo38> What I meant is that it might be considered not as natural at all except those who would study mathematics a lot might think it "natural" in those contexts otherwise you probably won't. But, I agree that it would be the most common to "naturally arise" from many kind of mathematical things.
22:26:51 <b_jonas> it's probably not overloaded
22:26:56 <b_jonas> and never means identity required
22:27:02 <b_jonas> because we have "monoid" for that
22:27:11 <zzo38> Surely, I would think, even alien monsters and whatever else, would figure that out too.
22:27:15 <b_jonas> mind you, we also have ZZ-modulus to mean a ring with identity
22:27:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, or "ring with identity"
22:27:37 <b_jonas> Taneb: nah, that's too many syllables, people are lazy
22:27:47 <b_jonas> Z-module is only two syllables
22:28:29 <Taneb> Also, I think natural numbers are the set recursively defined as N := finite sequence of N
22:28:44 <zzo38> They might not even have a word (if they have words at all) for subtraction, other than "inverse of addition", for example.
22:28:56 -!- TieSoul has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
22:28:57 <zzo38> Even with that definition, then you need to define the set, sequence, finite, etc
22:30:38 -!- TieSoul has joined.
22:31:32 <zzo38> However, in some stuff in mathematics the "infinite natural numbers" arise just as well as proper natural numbers would
22:32:34 <b_jonas> which kind of infinite natural numbers?
22:33:16 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:34:43 <lemurian> it would imply the kind that increase or decrease endlessly in either direction
22:34:58 -!- heroux has joined.
22:37:34 <zzo38> In other stuff there is the proper natural numbers which aren't infinite
22:37:55 <Taneb> Natural numbers that allow infinity do not have induction
22:39:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is not actually natural numbers, I know, it hasn't the induction (unless you can make the kind that does have induction? I don't quite know)
22:40:30 <zzo38> In category theory you have finite discrete categories, and then there are also infinite discrete categories, and categories which are not discrete categories, but you can still add, multiply, exponent.
22:40:53 <zzo38> Maybe you could also define factorial as a category of bijective endofunctors
22:40:56 <b_jonas> ah, it's that bug again. whew.
22:41:07 <b_jonas> (just some bug in my own stuff)
22:41:22 <b_jonas> I thought it was some other problem.
22:41:55 <zzo38> And, if you have real numbers, you also have the natural numbers because you have the multiplicative and additive identity and you can repeatedly add it up, multiply, exponent, and work just like natural numbers, too.
22:43:12 <zzo38> There are also many other examples of how you will arise natural numbers out of mathematics, probably including many that I don't know, and perhaps other people also don't know yet
22:43:33 <zzo38> See? What do *you* think???
22:55:25 <Sgeo> I think IVN is terrible
22:55:47 <tswett> I've discovered how to define a mathematical textbook.
22:55:58 <tswett> A mathematical textbook is a mathematical paper which contains at least one exercise.
22:56:49 <tswett> Now, I can imagine an alien culture failing to define the concept of an infinite set.
22:57:02 <tswett> (Rather, failing to define the concept of a set in such a way that there exist infinite sets.)
22:57:30 <zzo38> Yes, but maybe there must be some mathematical way to do it, but perhaps what seems obviously to them is something quite different to our own.
22:58:15 <tswett> They'd express Euclid's theorem the way that Euclid did.
22:58:23 <tswett> "For every set of prime numbers, there is a prime number not in the set."
22:58:45 <zzo38> Yes, like that is a way
23:24:24 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:40:04 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:47:07 <oren> just had a phone technical interview
23:47:30 <oren> "What is the command to tell what directory you are in?"
23:48:14 <zzo38> On UNIX it is pwd and on DOS/Windows it is CD
23:48:19 <oren> "What is the difference between TCP and UDP?"
23:48:37 <shachaf> What is the difference between TCP and UDP?
23:48:59 <shachaf> One time I had a job interview where they probably decided not to hire me because I said wrong things about TCP.
23:49:10 <b_jonas> oren: see https://rekrowten.wordpress.com/list-of-network-jokes/
23:49:21 <b_jonas> specifically the TCP & UDP section
23:54:28 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined.