00:00:14 <zzo38> I don't know but I want such a thing.
00:02:06 <zzo38> Some servers always redirect to HTTPS and I don't want it to do that
00:02:23 <oerjan> he's trying to generate free energy by making security experts rotate in their graves.
00:03:10 <oerjan> well that's the sanest possible use case hth
00:03:34 <zzo38> I don't want to generate free energy
00:06:15 <oerjan> by not using https whenever possible you are betraying humanity to the NSA tdnh
00:09:08 <zzo38> I don't care why can't you provide such a server?
00:10:03 * oerjan reports zzo38 to the NSA for not using proper encryption against the terrorists. oh wait...
00:11:18 <boily> aren't you both not living at all in the USA?
00:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, what reason do you have to actively avoid https?
00:11:48 <oerjan> are you saying i should use INTERPOL or something
00:12:30 <zzo38> HTTPS is causing problems, and some programs don't support it
00:13:10 <oerjan> report those programs to the NSA hth
00:13:52 <zzo38> Software exists to do this with POP3 but not HTTP, and also it isn't a public server
00:14:19 <zzo38> Don't you know NSA can crack HTTPS anyways?
00:15:32 * oerjan changes all his software to use 1048576 bit keys. that should teach them!
00:16:31 <zzo38> Yes, that should do it (hopefully)
00:16:45 <boily> oerjan: I possess the best remedy against NSA.
00:17:11 * boily uses a fountain pen and real mulched laminated dead tree sheets!
00:19:16 <oerjan> are you sure that pen isn't bugged hth
00:19:37 <boily> it's a demonstrator. clear plastic for easy inspection!
00:21:20 <boily> http://www.twsbi.com/collections/fountain-pens/products/twsbi-diamond-580al-orange-fountain-pen
00:21:31 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the aluminium on this pen isn't transparent!
00:21:59 <boily> seen aluminium is best aluminium.
00:28:14 <boily> the statistically least bugged pen I own is my Airmail 58SL, for having disassembled it completely many times.
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00:32:02 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: do you fountain pen?
00:39:47 <boily> I think I have one somewhere, maybe at my parents'.
00:40:12 <boily> big blue translucent thing, with a nice rubber grip.
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01:04:00 <boily> ah? metal, plastic, wood, glass? size? colour? grip? texture? cartridges, plunger, siphon, eyedrop?
01:05:19 * boily wonders if he should add Phantom_Hoover's pen to the The File...
01:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://img6a.flixcart.com//image/pen/h/e/g/sheaffer-342-fp-400x400-imad72dcguqcyhbh.jpeg this shape
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02:05:00 <zzo38> Can a length of a string literal be figure out in compile-time in a C code?
02:09:44 <zzo38> Actually, using sizeof works if you put -1 afterward I figured out now
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03:14:53 * oerjan assumes that's what the -1 was for
03:28:57 <oren> hmm. this chinese game boy game claims to be final fantasy IV, but I see no resemblance
03:31:28 <oren> plus the start screen has Cloud on it
03:32:38 <oren> The graphics are good and the battle system resembles FF1
03:33:03 <oren> Although I don't read Chinese
03:35:21 <oren> The start screen reads: 太空戦士IV
03:36:54 <oren> Which, means Space Soldier IV
03:37:47 <oren> Which explains why the story appears to involve starships
03:39:50 <oren> I love the fact that the chinese call space "Great Void"
03:40:02 <oren> the english word fro space sucks
03:45:51 <oren> some of these unlicensed chinese games are amazing. The one I've played the most is "Thunder Warrior: The Legend of Pikachu" on the NES, which is an apparent port of pokemon yellow
03:48:56 <oren> whoops that should be "thunder emperor"
03:52:02 <oren> well I guess it can't technically be a port, since they didn
03:52:14 <oren> t have the source code. a "remake"
04:03:20 <oren> seriously? this game has nothing whatsoever to do with final fantasy 4
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05:48:17 <zzo38> I have changed the RDF of the tropes of the level20.tex to now say <Zig-Zagging_Trope> <Footnote_Fever> instead of <Played_Straight> <Footnote_Fever>; apparently, that is what it is if one of the footnotes is referenced inside of a paper that is inside of the story rather than being the book that contains the story?
05:49:36 <zzo38> But I am pretty sure that <Played_Straight> <Evil_Chancellor> is correct.
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08:27:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gulf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43205&oldid=43170 * 160.85.232.100 * (+8) /* Examples */
08:31:43 <mroman_> The BSD license is public-domain
08:31:53 <mroman_> Does this mean I can modify the BSD license text and use it?
08:36:44 <oren> public domain means everyone has all the rights -- i think
08:42:47 <Taneb> Have any of you seen the TIS-100 game?
08:45:40 <mroman_> K. My fancy looking Gulf website looks quite nice for now
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09:14:49 <peer> All your connection are belong to me and I can reset them any time I want to.
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09:21:38 <xfix> Hm, I'm thinking about writing a programming language based on http://www.xkcd.com/1537/
09:23:03 <Taneb> It seems quotes are greedy in that language
09:25:35 <xfix> I'm trying to understand how to implement inconsistent mechanics consistenly.
09:25:48 <Taneb> I think it's mostly consistent, just odd
09:26:22 <xfix> "+2" I believe is because 十 is 10 in Chinese or something.
09:26:28 <Taneb> Not sure what [4] and [9] are doing
09:26:42 <Taneb> xfix, I think it's adding the line number
09:27:09 <xfix> That would make sense about adding a line number.
09:27:15 <olsner> couldn't figure out 9 or 14 though
09:27:29 <xfix> I don't understand 14 either. What's the deal with disappearing 2.
09:27:35 <Taneb> [11] is adding 2 to the value of 2, so it writes 4 instead of 2
09:27:45 <Taneb> this is why it's [14] and not [12]
09:27:59 <xfix> Oh, classic Fortran.
09:28:09 <xfix> Number two was replaced with 4.
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09:28:45 <Taneb> in [6] and [7], is + being "does not have element"
09:28:57 <Taneb> As in [1,2,3] does not have element 4
09:29:12 <xfix> Perhaps it adds to a set?
09:29:13 <olsner> I guess 1,2,3,4 makes a series, 1,2,3,2 doesn't
09:29:21 <xfix> And says whether it succeeded.
09:29:48 <Taneb> olsner, that kiiiind of makes sense
09:29:55 <Taneb> xfix, I think that is equivalent to what I suggested
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09:59:15 <boily> (mouah ah ah ah ah >:D)
09:59:44 <fizzie> Taneb: Someone came here talking about TIS-100 the other day, intending to write an emulator for it.
09:59:59 <fizzie> (And I was going to buy it with the 10% discount, but then I forgot.)
10:00:07 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. do you still maintain the fizziegraphs?
10:00:12 <Taneb> fizzie, I've been enjoying it
10:00:43 <fizzie> boily: Which graphs were these? I do so many graphs.
10:01:44 <boily> the ones where there's a dot when we say something in the chännel.
10:03:56 <fizzie> I think I'v'nt ran them in a while, but I could try.
10:05:31 <fizzie> updating target 2, days 2014-03-13 ... 2015-06-12
10:05:41 <fizzie> I think I got it right, and I hadn't run it in a year.
10:09:26 <fizzie> boily: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ should in theory be up to date. Although the list of "very important people" could stand to be updated.
10:10:35 <Guest13639> a language where syntax is locale dependant
10:10:57 <Guest13639> see. I can only come up with stupid ideas :(
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10:11:33 <boily> which regions would lock the syntax?
10:11:57 <boily> postal jurisdictions? they'd be restricting integers to stamp values :D
10:12:15 <boily> (good luck writing an international hello, world.)
10:12:22 <mroman> depending on where you live.
10:13:24 <mroman> or possibly even type names have to be written in the local language
10:13:27 <mroman> otherwise it won't compile
10:13:57 <nortti> what if the language has no writing system?
10:14:03 <mroman> Funktion Haupt Ist Zeige "Hello, world" Ende
10:14:43 <mroman> language using IPA signs (but in a correct way of course)
10:15:10 <nortti> even just for english, if you were to support variant pronounciations
10:18:41 <xfix> I also feel like making Whitespace with Unicode, except using more Unicode, and slightly less stack based.
10:18:55 <mroman> It's funny that youtube is becoming a better illegal movie streaming site than the other ones
10:19:05 <mroman> well... illegal depends on which country you live in.
10:19:26 <mroman> swiss laws allow "just watching" of all sorts of movies
10:20:51 <xfix> For example, numbers would be represented by U+200A followed by U+2000 to U+2009. The general idea is that U+2000 to U+2009 are command extensions, and other space characters are used for stuff.
10:21:28 <xfix> So there is no need for any sort of separation between functions.
10:21:51 <xfix> And functions know exactly how many arguments they do take.
10:22:47 <xfix> Additionally, U+200A could be used for code blocks, and code blocks end with U+000A
10:24:10 <xfix> And for that matter, arrays, because multipurpose commands are great when there is no ambiguity.
10:27:18 <xfix> https://gist.github.com/xfix/77b23164c5cdfff876f0 - hm, that looks quite nice, actually...
10:33:55 * oerjan isn't sure that unicode whitespace hasn't been done before
10:34:26 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Unispace
10:39:18 * boily sips his coffee. good coffee. "aaaaah ^^"
10:39:24 <int-e> but has it been done with only zero-width whitespace?
10:41:38 <mroman> languages that can only jump back in code
10:41:44 <mroman> can they be made turing complete?
10:42:20 <oerjan> mroman: BCT would seem to qualify
10:42:22 <mroman> like assembly languages without forward jumps
10:42:37 <oerjan> you only have one jump, back to the beginning at the end
10:42:40 <mroman> or in other words: You can't skip instructions but you can jump back
10:43:08 <mroman> there's no trivial if or while loops then
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10:45:07 <mroman> I was hoping for something more human readable/intuitive :)
10:46:00 <boily> you're in #esöteric. human readability is a side effect.
10:46:01 <oerjan> hm brainfuck with do-while instead of while, is that TC or not
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10:53:58 <mroman> http://codepad.org/asHG17GK is more or less what I was aiming for
10:54:29 <mroman> but yes, that can be reduced to brainfuck with do-while instead of while
10:55:35 <oerjan> with all those commands, you might be able to simulate skipping instructions with a flag
10:57:54 <mroman> by setting src to 1 and use cmp as a flag (either 0 or 1) which determines whether the ADD has any effect or not
10:59:08 <mroman> BTW is there any wiki admin present?
10:59:23 <mroman> I have no idea what e-mail address is registered for my account
10:59:42 <mroman> and sadly I have no idea what I chose as a password :(
11:01:41 <mroman> either that or the forget password mail gets stuck
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11:03:38 <oerjan> i suspect i'm not privileged enough to see your email address, but i assume fizzie is
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11:05:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumpback]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43206 * 160.85.232.100 * (+1109) Created page with "'''Jumpback''' is an esoteric programming languages with no forward jumps. == Instructions == <pre> MOV dst, srcCopy src to dst ADD dst, srcAdd src to dst SUB dst, src..."
11:08:52 <oerjan> mroman: i sent you a test email
11:09:09 <oerjan> with Cc: to myself, so we'll see if it's broken in general
11:10:47 <mroman> with cc you should see what my e-mail address is
11:11:07 <mroman> Let's hope it's not clonkturm@gmx.net
11:11:10 <oerjan> it would still be Bcc:ed to you
11:11:29 <oerjan> you'll see mine, of course
11:11:47 <oerjan> not that i've received any Cc: yet...
11:12:47 <oerjan> i don't think senders are supposed to be able to see the address of the recipient unless they respond, anyway.
11:15:08 <oerjan> @tell fizzie mroman is having problems getting password reset email to work, is outgoing email from the wiki server working?
11:15:08 <mroman> I haven't received anything so far on the e-mail accounts I know of.
11:15:33 <mroman> (and still have access to)
11:16:42 <oerjan> i haven't received the Cc: either
11:17:12 <oerjan> @tell fizzie I haven't received Cc: on my test mail either.
11:17:49 <oerjan> @tell fizzie (BTW he's User:Feuermonster)
11:19:55 <mroman> that nick dates back to me using the internet at age 12 or something :D
11:22:42 <mroman> It's from a multi-player 2D game I used to play
11:23:07 <mroman> http://clonk.de/classics.php?lng=en
11:23:31 <mroman> http://clonk.de/video.php?lng=en&id=cr
11:23:56 <mroman> the trailer is probably more significant
11:24:10 <mroman> (since compared to other game trailers it actually shows ingame footage)
11:27:13 <oerjan> is it one of those red monsters at 0:43
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11:28:25 <Lyka> need a new antivirus: bitdefender vs kaspersy?
11:29:09 <mroman> It's actually a proprietary 2D game engine with lots of "official" contents and thousands of user-made content
11:29:19 <mroman> well.. it was proprietary. It's open source now.
11:31:39 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3oK-kaANk for example is Quake for Clonk
11:33:44 <mroman> That's why it was so successful
11:37:57 <mroman> but there was always just a small core community of a few dozen people
11:38:07 <mroman> and they have all grown old now :)
11:38:49 <mroman> until Clonk Rage came out, which gained some popularity and the community grew a lot with young kids for a while
11:39:01 <mroman> but young kids today rather play CoD than games like this :)
11:43:33 <mroman> which also applies to the older ones :)
11:45:22 <mroman> It's not exactly a platformer :)
11:45:34 <Lyka> which av do you recommend?
11:46:31 <mroman> which took the Clonk Rage source code and are trying to create something new out of it
11:46:34 <mroman> http://www.openclonk.org/
11:46:42 <Lyka> does anyone care about my question?
11:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Lyka, since i have no idea what 'av' means i can't really answer
11:47:28 * oerjan this time just kept the one that came with windows
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11:48:27 <oerjan> and on my previous laptop i changed _to_ microsoft's av because the one i was using started to get annoyingly nagging
11:48:56 <mroman> http://blog.openclonk.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Raid.png
11:49:03 <mroman> it has made some good progress lately it seems
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11:54:39 <mroman> but this confirms that "access to guns" doesn't necessarily mean more crime
11:54:45 <mroman> it's just the people that suck :)
11:56:54 <FreeFull> Access to guns means that you get more accidents where you are shitty at gun safety, and your toddler picks up your gun and shoots you
11:57:29 <FreeFull> No, seriously, that does happen
11:57:40 <mroman> If you place your gun where a toddler can pick it up you're a fucking moron
11:57:52 <FreeFull> For example, it happened to a policeman during a wedding
11:57:56 <mroman> Do you know how many households have guns in switzerland?
11:58:54 <mroman> "compulsory military service"?
11:59:21 <FreeFull> I imagine less Swiss people are unsafe with a gun though
11:59:26 <mroman> We had three guns at home
11:59:37 <mroman> father's, brother's and the other brother's gun
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12:00:03 <oerjan> i don't think that _quite_ implies everyone having a gun, it certainly didn't in norway back when military service was genuinely compulsory
12:00:03 <mroman> but you're obviously supposed to take certain parts away from the gun
12:00:11 <mroman> and store those in seperate locations
12:00:17 <FreeFull> If anybody ever tries to invade Switzerland, Switzerland will win
12:00:40 <mroman> oerjan: well not everybody
12:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that access to firearms alone doesn't mean high gun violence is pretty widely acknowledged
12:00:49 <mroman> just the ones deemed fit for military service
12:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> since all you need to do to see it is look at the guns per capita and the gun deaths per capita in the usa vs. any other country
12:01:07 <oerjan> mroman: ...my point still applies.
12:01:32 <FreeFull> I wonder if I'd be able to get through the physical to get into military service
12:01:33 <mroman> everybody deemed fit enough and still in military service
12:01:45 <mroman> old people at some point are retired and they have to give the gun back
12:02:37 <mroman> gun crimes are a cultural thing.
12:03:43 <mroman> FreeFull: physical entry exams are usually pretty low demanding actually
12:04:29 <mroman> And I base that on the USMC PFT
12:04:36 <mroman> which requires a mere 3 pull-ups
12:05:50 <mroman> 2.4km is what you should be able to do in 12min
12:05:55 <mroman> and that's not even a good score
12:07:08 <mroman> how much is 3 miles again?
12:09:48 <mroman> that gives you 6min exhaustion
12:10:28 <FreeFull> mroman: You underestimate how long it's been since I last exercised
12:11:08 <mroman> I haven't done any 12min runs for the last years either
12:11:14 <mroman> so I don't know how I stand there
12:12:08 <mroman> and I've trained that for months now and it doesn't get any better
12:12:20 <mroman> so I assume 12 pull-ups is pretty much my body's natural peek of what it can do
12:12:33 <FreeFull> I don't know how many pullups I can do
12:12:46 <mroman> without using a specific diet or extra nutrition/protein shakes and the like
12:13:25 <mroman> FreeFull: Yeah but really all it takes is like 20min of exercise every other day
12:14:34 <mroman> unless you want to run a marathon
12:14:42 <mroman> but to stay "averagely fit" it doesn't take much
12:19:40 <FreeFull> mroman: I don't do 20 min of exercise a day
12:19:57 <FreeFull> My minutes of exercise a day are in the negative numbers
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13:09:01 <nys> i stick with pushdowns
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14:06:26 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/new.html
14:06:40 <mroman> trying to get the webpage back
14:20:18 <mroman> (more good looking than it currently is)
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14:37:58 <mroman> I took the liberty to state that this is the help channel for burlesque :p
14:38:24 <mroman> not that I'd expect strangers to suddenly appear here
14:50:10 <int-e> heaven forbid, we might have to talk to people we don't already know!
14:51:26 <paul2520> mroman: http://mroman.ch/burlesque/hackmode.txt not found
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15:32:11 <Taneb> I may have just spent £50 on boxes
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16:33:05 <Taneb> WHAT IS THE WORD FOR WHEN YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT SOMETHING THEN HEAR ABOUT IT FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES ALL AT ONCE?
16:34:11 <lemurian> the Phrase "living under a rock" coems to mind
16:35:13 <Taneb> It's like "Oh, that's interesting.", then "Yes, Alice told me that the other day." then "Oh, that fact is now on Reddit, huh", etc
16:38:10 <Taneb> I want to call it synchronicity
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18:23:58 <oren> At your discretion you may also take the aforementioned code under
18:23:58 <oren> any other license, providing that that license does not impose any
18:23:58 <oren> duties or obligations upon me, Oren Watson.
18:24:14 <oren> ^ does the above sound legal enough
18:25:37 <Taneb> I'd say "Other licenses available by request" to make sure you don't get screwed over
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18:26:19 <oren> Well given that the initial license is CC0
18:27:55 <oren> The main issue is people making a license that imposes upon me a duty of care to debug the code for them
18:29:02 <oren> I'm not sure it's possible for them to do that, but I want to prevent it in case the powers that be decide it is
18:31:13 <oren> Ah fuck it, "Other licenses available upon request" is good enough to stop that too
18:35:55 <int-e> 'Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no representations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work [...]' <-- that should cover your worries (but obviously, I'm not a lawyer)
18:36:32 <int-e> (from the CC0 legal text, section 4)
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18:41:37 <oren> ` ps -axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:41:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
18:41:46 <oren> `run ps -axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:41:47 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ
18:41:54 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:42:13 <oren> hackego isn't running irssi?
18:42:34 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:43:16 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep bash
18:43:17 <HackEgo> bash Sat Jun 13 18:45:05 2015
18:43:49 <oren> oh, look, I reimplemented the date command
18:45:32 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep mysqld
18:45:56 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep apache
18:46:17 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
18:46:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:47:22 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart
18:47:22 <HackEgo> COMMAND STARTED \ init Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kthreadd Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ ksoftirqd/0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/0:0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/0:0H Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/u2:0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ khelper Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kdevtm
18:47:44 <oren> `run ps axo comm
18:47:44 <HackEgo> COMMAND \ init \ kthreadd \ ksoftirqd/0 \ kworker/0:0 \ kworker/0:0H \ kworker/u2:0 \ khelper \ kdevtmpfs \ netns \ kworker/u2:1 \ writeback \ bioset \ kblockd \ kworker/0:1 \ kswapd0 \ fsnotify_mark \ deferwq \ init \ init \ init \ sh \ sh \ ps \ cat \ umlbox-mudem
18:48:16 <oren> `run ps axo comm | tail
18:48:17 <HackEgo> init \ init \ init \ sh \ sh \ bash \ cat \ umlbox-mudem \ ps \ tail
18:48:28 <oren> wow that's all?
18:56:14 <HackEgo> STARTED \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02
18:56:25 <HackEgo> STARTED \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13
18:57:12 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
18:59:31 <oren> it really starts up the whole environment afresh with each command???!?!
19:16:15 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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19:33:04 <int-e> http://airportnavfinder.com/airport/EGPR/ ... have a look at the maps with the three "runways" :)
19:34:37 <oren> Should be 'surface: salt water'
19:34:45 <int-e> nice, one can search for ICAO codes on google maps
19:34:52 <int-e> oren: it depends on the tides
19:35:22 <Taneb> int-e, that isn't an error, wow
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19:56:20 <zzo38> How can you make a JavaScript code in a web page that overrides events for clicking links to other parts of the same page? One wiki has problem so I want to override it in the custom script
20:10:59 <oren> es = document.getElementsByTagName('a'); for(i=0;i<es.length;i++){if(es[i].href.indexOf('#')==0){es.onclick=';'}}
20:11:14 <oren> es = document.getElementsByTagName('a'); for(i=0;i<es.length;i++){if(es[i].href.indexOf('#')==0){es[i].onclick=';'}}
20:12:25 <oren> hmm, apparently you need to do
20:12:48 <oren> function(){} instead of ';'
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20:31:03 <zzo38> The onclick doesn't seem to be set already though
20:32:52 <oren> maybe also set the href to '#'?
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20:34:52 <zzo38> No the href is already correct, it links how it is supposed to
20:35:17 <zzo38> But clicking those links causes it to immediately go back and then forward again to the linked item, and then if back is pushed it refuses to go back.
20:37:10 <oren> right, a # link causes the whole page to be refreshed.
20:39:06 <oren> If you don't want that, you need to override onclick, and set the focus to the linked item, and manipulate the history using window.history
20:40:12 <zzo38> But what about, events added using addEventListener or so on?
20:40:49 <zzo38> Or an event which is not on the link itself
20:41:32 <oren> Hard to predict the possiblities, but if you set your own onclick, then consume the event, it won't bubble to enclosing elements
20:49:49 -!- b_jonas has joined.
20:50:10 <FireFly> As far as I know, it's not possible to see listeners added via addEventListener
20:53:23 <HackEgo> ==> emoticons/gaan <== \ (°Д°) \ \ ==> emoticons/kyaa <== \ (≧∇≦)/ \ \ ==> emoticons/shrug <== \ ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:56:19 <oren> maybe I should have put in a longer one,
20:56:29 <oren> liek ｶﾞ━━(ﾟДﾟ;)━━━ﾝ!!!!!
20:59:01 <oren> ``cat >emoticons/gaaan <<<'ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ'
20:59:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
20:59:06 <oren> `` cat >emoticons/gaaan <<<'ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ'
20:59:39 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
20:59:43 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaaan
21:00:37 <oren> gaaan is a general expression of severe shock or dread in Japanese manga
21:03:14 <oren> most of these jis emoji don't look right in a terminal
21:04:21 <pikhq> That's cause your terminal sucks.
21:05:06 <oren> does your terminal check the font to see how wide a character is?
21:06:14 <pikhq> No, but JIS emoji assume a fixed width font...
21:06:44 <oren> yes but they also assume that Д is a wide character
21:07:52 <pikhq> That's just brain damaged.
21:08:04 <oren> they assume that any character outside JIS 0201 is a wide character,
21:08:24 <oren> because that is how all fixed-width japanese fonts render
21:09:30 <pikhq> Which is... incorrect.
21:09:43 <oren> So it shows up fine in a browser if you have the right fonts, but in a terminal, they assume instead unicode width, which fucks it up
21:09:53 <pikhq> Oh, doh, it's not fixed width it's bizarre proportional width.
21:09:58 <pikhq> K, it won't ever work in a terminal.
21:10:21 <zzo38> Unicode is a bad idea for terminal emulators
21:11:58 <oren> EUC-CN is better
21:12:15 <pikhq> Which also means it'll only work rendered with MS PGothic (or anything with similar characteristics)
21:12:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Unfortunately, all other encodings suck.
21:12:53 <pikhq> Meaning that Unicode on a terminal is, well, what's gonna happen.
21:13:13 <oren> or really any EUC-XX is better than Unicode for fixed width stuff
21:13:56 <pikhq> Eh, just means wcswidth is easier. The real trick with terminals really is handling bidirectional text.
21:14:27 <oren> just write it backwards. PHP has 'hebrev()' function for this.
21:15:00 <pikhq> But that's incorrect.
21:15:03 <oren> you could easily write one that works for all R2L languages
21:16:10 <pikhq> The terminal's supposed to display it properly. Doing that just happens to suck. :)
21:20:24 <oren> I have no idea how they do arabic in a terminal?
21:20:55 <oren> do they just use the isolated form of every letter?
21:21:43 <zzo38> Unicode is terrible too though. ASCII is work good
21:22:57 <pikhq> I believe they just put the normal string in there.
21:23:48 <zzo38> Defining width, kerning, ligature, right-to-left, etc should be defined by the font metric file using whatever character encoding it defines (which is allowed to be Unicode if it wants); the rest of the program knows nothing about this, furthermore these font metric file aren't for terminal but are for typesetting instead.
21:24:22 <pikhq> This means that libc has to know about the font being used?
21:25:01 <zzo38> No, libc ought not to care at all.
21:25:11 <pikhq> But it has to know the character width.
21:25:32 <zzo38> And should just assume one byte = 1 width unit
21:25:38 <pikhq> But that is wrong.
21:25:55 <zzo38> Doesn't it work for Shift-JIS though?
21:26:12 <pikhq> wcswidth *does* know the character set.
21:26:41 <pikhq> Anyways, a 4 byte UTF-8 character is not inherently 4 cells.
21:27:03 <zzo38> I know that, but, it can even be ambiguous too
21:27:13 <zzo38> Better is to not use wcswidth at all
21:27:36 <pikhq> Then how do you know the width of a string in units of terminal cells?
21:27:46 <zzo38> It is dumb for terminal cells to use UTF-8
21:27:50 <pikhq> (hint, a lot of fancier use of the terminal HAS to know that)
21:28:03 <zzo38> Like they said EUC would be better
21:28:08 <pikhq> But that's the thing: terminals *in practice* use UTF-8.
21:28:10 <zzo38> But you can also tell by querying the terminal if you need to
21:28:13 <pikhq> Because everything else uses UTF-8.
21:28:27 <zzo38> Well, I don't, I use VT100 and PC characters
21:28:31 <pikhq> Because everything else is only usable by a subset of humanity.
21:29:13 <zzo38> You should use an encoding with explicit widths.
21:29:28 <zzo38> If you need right-to-left, specify by a control code.
21:29:37 <pikhq> Unicode *has* character width defined, it's just in a lookup table.
21:29:41 <zzo38> Unicode isn't the encoding though, and UTF-8 doesn't have explicit widths
21:29:49 <zzo38> Encodings such as Shift-JIS do
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21:30:27 <pikhq> Except no-they-don't, the rule "1 byte per 1 cell" is not entirely correct. :)
21:31:00 <zzo38> Yes they don't quite there are other problems too
21:31:59 <zzo38> A better encoding would be: Wide characters are two bytes in 0xA0-0xFF range; narrow characters are 0x20-0x7E or a SS2 or SS3 code followed by any 0xA0-0xFF or 0x20-0x7E code.
21:32:25 <pikhq> Oh good! It's *stateful*.
21:32:44 <oren> pikhq: it is entirely correct with a SJIS font!
21:32:59 <zzo38> (And then also SO and SI, to select additional characters such as line drawing)
21:33:01 <pikhq> oren: ... Which are proportional, not fixed width.
21:33:24 <oren> Try the font MS Gothic
21:33:33 <oren> Not MS PGothic, MS Gothic.
21:33:45 <zzo38> (Also degrees, British pound sign, pi, etc are also selected by shift out)
21:33:46 <oren> Or any other non-P japanese font.
21:34:01 <pikhq> MS Gothic is not the font used for SJIS art.
21:34:36 <oren> Correct, however it DOES have 1-byte-per-cell when used with SJIS encoding
21:34:40 <pikhq> zzo38: ... stateful. Stateful sucks.
21:34:51 <pikhq> oren: Okay, then that's just terrible. :)
21:35:14 <pikhq> And means that the rendering of text changes if you convert to unicode...
21:35:19 <pikhq> Which doesn't seem right.
21:35:38 <zzo38> Then you shouldn't convert it to Unicode, except if you are going to convert back to Shift-JIS
21:35:59 <zzo38> Unicode is really terrible
21:36:12 <pikhq> It is significantly better than all alternatives.
21:36:19 <oren> EUC-CN is better
21:36:21 <pikhq> Unless you seek to eliminate most languages.
21:36:39 <pikhq> oren: If you seek to eliminate most languages.
21:37:00 <zzo38> Even Unicode fails to encode a lot of stuff properly
21:37:41 <zzo38> You need to do it by font-metric files. This way you can define your own metrics for private-use as well as non-private codes.
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21:38:17 <zzo38> Commodore 64 codes
21:38:46 <zzo38> Constructed scripts (which is done by CSUR; there is also LINCUA which uses private use area for another purpose)
21:38:46 <pikhq> That's not "a lot", but sure, that is missing and maybe shouldn't be.
21:39:09 <pikhq> FWIW constructed scripts *may* go in Unicode... They just mostly haven't.
21:39:32 <zzo38> And there are many problems with what the various characters mean in situations, which can depend on language and other stuff
21:42:51 <oren> there is plenty of room in the EUC codes for accented letters and the like. their omission is purely because the existing EUC codes are country-specific
21:43:14 <pikhq> Good luck avoiding being country specific while improving Unicode.
21:43:23 <pikhq> (... no, seriously, I wish you the best of luck.)
21:48:17 <zzo38> My own design it uses 8-bit codes, but the codes are taken from a user-definable lookup table of 12-bit codes (the lookup table itself uses 9-bit codes though), but it guarantees 1 byte = 1 cell (except control characters which take up no space, but may still move the cursor), correct ordering, etc. This design is only for display though and is not designed for typesetting. (Also some codes can be used for user-defined characters)
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21:49:06 <zzo38> This code does not include right-to-left languages, but you do have hiragana/katakana, Russian, ISO-8859-1, PC character set, Commodore 64, Apple Mousetext, Infocom character graphics, VT100 character graphics, etc
21:49:31 <zzo38> (The control codes are the same too)
21:50:29 <zzo38> You can easily know which 12-bit codes are control codes; they are the ones with the three high-bits all set!
21:50:44 <oren> I think there is a middle ground between encodings like EUC-JP or Latin-1 on one hand, and Unicode on the other. Consider if we support a subset consisting of only those unicode characters which are fully composed, do not link into ligatures, and are not copies of another character.
21:51:12 <pikhq> Then you still will not handle all languages.
21:51:15 <oren> (by copies, I mean to exclude the damned math italics)
21:51:21 <zzo38> oren: That is useful when you want to encode the text into a format that uses Unicode, such as in RDF.
21:52:02 <zzo38> Such subsets can then be used when you want to support only such subsets but make it compatible with program that render/search arbitrary Unicode texts too.
21:52:20 <oren> pikhq: right, but it would support _most_ languages, and in particular those which work well in a grid
21:53:12 <zzo38> Like I said, it is useful when you need to convert such text into Unicode, and/or decode it from Unicode.
21:55:16 <oren> I think you could cut it down to 0x7f80 non-ascii characters.
21:55:42 <oren> If you could, then the result would be a byte-widthed encoding.
21:55:59 <oren> (Assuming the font treats all non-ascii as wide)
21:56:52 <zzo38> Even if it doesn't treat all non-ASCII as wide, you can make some prefixes considered "control codes" which mean ones that start with those are narrow.
21:57:22 <oren> 0x7f80 = 128 non-ascii start characters, followed by 255 non-zero end characters
22:04:11 <zzo38> If the string contains no control codes and all non-ASCII characters are wide, then it is in fact just the number of bytes = number of cells.
22:05:22 <zzo38> Your idea seem like it would be pretty good encoding for terminals.
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22:06:06 <zzo38> Except that some narrow characters then won't work, unless you use a "prefix of narrow codes"
22:06:26 <zzo38> Which makes it only *slightly* complicated.
22:09:33 <oren> yeah. but at least the width is always <= number of bytes, which is not the case for utf-8 by a long shot
22:09:51 <HackEgo> quote/Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
22:10:34 <HackEgo> sleep/Sleep is for the weak.
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22:26:25 <oren> Alternately, for byte-guzzling no-good-niks: use a 14 pixel high, 1 pixel wide font for double-byte characters. transmit any non-ascii character as an image formed from these thin slices.
22:28:06 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
22:35:37 <zzo38> I suppose for picture terminals it can help, or for a terminal with a picture mode in addition to the standard text mode.
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22:53:42 <b_jonas> oren: nice! I was thinking of using 9 wide 1 high font in text mode to create monochrome graphics once,
22:54:06 <b_jonas> because I think you can put the Linux text console to such a mode without root permissions
23:03:33 <int-e> b_jonas: how about a 4x2 font with the braille subset of unicode...
23:04:00 <b_jonas> int-e: no, this would allow a higher resolution
23:04:12 <b_jonas> though only a lower refresh rate than a real graphics mode
23:04:19 <b_jonas> so a real graphics mode is still preferable
23:04:52 <zzo38> You shouldn't even use the Unicode there, although making it 4x2 helps so that you can convert it to Unicode at least.
23:12:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I still have a problem with the braille subset of kanji (though if you're misusing them for graphics, it's irrelevant)
23:14:19 <b_jonas> Namely that there's no code places yet for the braille cells that extend the normal 6 point cells with two points _above_ the cell, as opposed to below. Those cells are used for "Katenji", the more believable one out of the two experimental systems to encode Japanese text with the kanji fully represented.
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23:43:56 <HackEgo> sgeo/Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
23:45:45 <oerjan> let's not bring the carnage here tdnh
23:47:38 <oerjan> `learn Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
23:47:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'metaplace': Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
23:48:45 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; rgrep invented * | grep -v Taneb | sed 's/:.*//' | xargs
23:48:46 <HackEgo> cpressey mroman Binary file reflection matches rtf sgeo twoducks unicode
23:50:08 <shachaf> reflection is not helpful for grep tdnh
23:51:14 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; rgrep i[n]vented * | grep -v Taneb | sed 's/:.*//' | xargs
23:51:15 <HackEgo> cpressey mroman rtf sgeo twoducks unicode
23:51:41 <oerjan> we had to that back with `logs, i remember
23:51:53 -!- simpleirc has joined.
23:52:17 <oerjan> munge regexes to avoid them matcing themselves
23:52:27 -!- simpleirc has changed nick to trinna.
23:52:37 <shachaf> I couldn't parse your sentence and then I realized it was probably missing the word "do".
23:54:02 <HackEgo> 977) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar
23:54:46 <oerjan> `` quote ♫ | tail -n +1
23:54:47 <HackEgo> 977) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar
23:54:50 <int-e> fizzie: oh speaking of DNS, how's the esolangs.org takeover going?
23:54:59 <oerjan> hmph why can i never remember tail's syntax
23:55:32 <oerjan> `` quote ♫ | tail -n +2
23:55:32 <HackEgo> 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
23:55:40 <oerjan> i just had an off by one error
23:56:07 <shachaf> more like tail has an off by one error hth
23:56:10 <oerjan> shachaf: the syntax for counting from the beginning instead of the end
23:56:22 -!- trinna has left.
23:56:25 <shachaf> even more annoying is tail -c +1
23:57:27 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
23:57:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: is that still true outside of CT land?
23:58:10 <copumpkin> I will never be a "natural born US citizen", so yes
23:58:40 <b_jonas> you could just lobby to change that rule
23:58:50 <shachaf> maybe i can be president of the copumpkin fan club
23:58:51 <oerjan> copumpkin: you could perhaps become president of another country
23:59:01 <copumpkin> my other country doesn't have presidents!
23:59:21 <copumpkin> I'm also eligible for italian citizenship, which does have a president
23:59:33 <copumpkin> but I'm not sure they allow naturalized citizens to become president either
23:59:45 <oerjan> copumpkin: i was more thinking of finding a country which has no natural-born rule
23:59:59 <oerjan> pretty sure norway doesn't, alas we have a king.