00:00:01 <copumpkin> yeah, but most countries are sticklers for citizenship requirements
00:00:13 <shachaf> I'm a citizen of three countries which all have presidents.
00:00:14 <copumpkin> as far as I know, I'm only eligible for one citizenship I don't have
00:00:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: I hear it's pretty easy to buy some more.
00:00:26 <copumpkin> except for the ones you pay for/invest
00:00:39 <shachaf> I don't think I can be president of Finland either. :-(
00:00:44 <copumpkin> yeah, I think panama will let me become one if I invest a mere $1m into it
00:00:46 <oren_> Ok, I THINK that's the last bug
00:00:54 <oerjan> well for norway you'd have to live there for 7 years unless they've changed that (and getting permission to live there might be tricky for many people)
00:01:32 <b_jonas> copumpkin: yes, the UK would be much more difficult to change. I wouldn't recommend that.
00:01:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug| The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
00:01:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
00:01:50 <int-e> oren_: haha!, wait, are you serious?
00:01:53 <HackEgo> 806) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway \ 1087) <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range \ 1231) <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
00:02:14 <oren_> int-e: sort of. I don't SEE anyhting worng out of 10 games I've tested
00:02:27 <b_jonas> copumpkin: try for President of Republic in Hungary. there's no requirement that you have to be natural born, you only have to be a citizen and at least 35 years old.
00:02:40 <copumpkin> how do I get hungarian citizenship though?
00:02:44 <oren_> So it appears that the scrolling interpolation is bug free.
00:02:46 <shachaf> Are there countries that don't require you to be a citizen?
00:03:09 <shachaf> i might run for president of hungry
00:03:11 <oerjan> copumpkin: you could theoretically perhaps become president of the eu parliament
00:03:26 <int-e> oren_: ah so you have reached the point where "common usecases almost never break".
00:03:38 <copumpkin> can I just be the president of computing perhaps?
00:04:07 <shachaf> outlaw turing completeness
00:04:22 <shachaf> or just outlaw nontermination
00:04:30 <oren_> int-e: yes, where "common usecases" includes obscure Chinese unlicensed games
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00:04:46 <oren_> Well, actually, I don
00:05:13 <oren_> t technically know that it works with nintendo licensed games
00:05:44 <oren_> Since I have long since beaten all those and therefore haven't been playing them...
00:06:00 <oren_> (all the ones I liked anyeay)
00:06:13 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you move yet?
00:06:15 <b_jonas> copumpkin: I think it's not very hard. you have to claim Hungarian ethnicity, which is the fastest route; or live here for a very long time, which is the slow route; or I think marrying a Hungarian citizen might also work as a fast route; or become a very good olympic class sportsman in a team sport and express your interest in playing in the Hungarian team if only you had citizenship, which is like the fastest express route
00:06:25 <copumpkin> shachaf: in the next couple of weeks :S
00:06:45 <copumpkin> no hungarian background unfortunately, and not very sporty
00:06:48 <copumpkin> so I'd have to live there for a while
00:07:04 <copumpkin> I also hear hungary has draconian drug laws
00:07:14 <b_jonas> copumpkin: of course, just becoming a citizen isn't enough, getting the parliment to actually elect you as president is difficult. can you have mind control a hundred adults?
00:07:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: I hear just about every country has draconian drug laws.
00:07:39 <b_jonas> copumpkin: you don't have to _have_ hungarian background, you just have to claim and be able to fake it a bit. you may have to learn the language and culture a bit, but it's not very hard to do.
00:08:03 <b_jonas> copumpkin: ethnicity is subjective so you can always claim you feel you are Hungarian.
00:08:17 <copumpkin> shachaf: particularly draconian ones
00:08:33 <copumpkin> I was actually particularly stupid about that
00:08:41 <FireFly> b_jonas: do you have any express route tips for becoming 35 years old?
00:08:56 <copumpkin> I bought a smallish bag o' weed while I was in amsterdam and forgot I had it
00:09:01 <copumpkin> went all around europe, got down to croatia, then crossed by train to hungary
00:09:10 <oren_> My greatuncle became 18 at 14
00:09:52 <shachaf> What's with lots of drugs being illegal by default everywhere, anyway?
00:09:59 <b_jonas> FireFly: I think the Chinese can give some hints for that. they supposedly aged some young gymnasts for the olympics illegally.
00:10:06 <copumpkin> I hear they throw foreigners in jail for years all the time over shit like what I did
00:10:18 <copumpkin> still clueless, I realized I had it in my hotel in budapest
00:10:22 <copumpkin> and figured I might as well smoke it
00:10:31 <copumpkin> still didn't get caught, but it would've been bad
00:10:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: they're not illegal "by default". they explicitly made them illegal.
00:11:28 <b_jonas> copumpkin: um, doesn't weed sometimes leave a characteristic small they can find even if they don't catch you red-handed?
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00:11:34 <b_jonas> I don't really know, maybe that's some other drugs
00:11:42 <copumpkin> it does, but we smoked out the window
00:11:52 <oren_> weed only smells when it is smoked
00:12:11 <b_jonas> copumpkin: oh yeah, out of the window. that's what all the tobacco smokers say, but you still get the room smelly when you do that.
00:12:34 <b_jonas> no, I don't buy "out of the window" unless you actually go to the balcony.
00:12:39 <copumpkin> or perhaps if I go back to hungary they'll arrest me on the spot
00:12:41 <oren_> Right. people who smoke (either one) can't detect the smell of their drug
00:13:03 <b_jonas> copumpkin: admittedly, the workers who clean up your room might not recognize what it's the smell of. I wouldn't.
00:13:16 <copumpkin> "I just happened to have a pet skunk"
00:13:30 <b_jonas> I don't know how many people know what weed smells like.
00:13:49 <b_jonas> I have almost no experience with drugs, luckily, so I don't know.
00:13:54 <oren_> I know because of my parents
00:14:23 <copumpkin> it's fun, but I prefer being lucid
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00:17:49 <shachaf> smoking seems to me like a pretty unpleasant way to consume drugs
00:18:10 <oren_> Apparently a vaporizer is much better
00:19:23 <shachaf> Maybe I should say "inhaling".
00:19:30 <oren_> the only drug I take is coffee and on special occasions alcohol.
00:19:47 <oren_> So I would not know form personal experience
00:20:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think it depends on the particular drug
00:20:20 <b_jonas> some of them are used intravenously, or so I hear
00:21:50 <oren_> I would suspect that those would be ones that are destroyed by stomach acid?
00:22:11 <oren_> and can't be brought to high temperatures
00:22:59 <oren_> A pharmacologist (or pharmacology student) would know
00:26:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> What's with lots of drugs being illegal by default everywhere, anyway? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs hth
00:34:05 <oren_> Hey, apparently LLVM is optimizing out infinite loops!
00:39:13 <oren_> http://pastebin.com/0ZZwEKiq
00:39:32 <oren_> Under -O3 llvm outputs fail
00:39:43 <oren_> er, the resulting program does
00:40:49 <oren_> That is, IMO, a huge bug
00:41:37 <b_jonas> oren_: make a small testcase, make sure it's really a bug, not some mistake you made, report the bug
00:42:15 <oren_> there is a testcase in the pastebin above
00:46:16 <zzo38> Can you do coroutines in LLVM?
00:48:21 <zzo38> oren_: It should depend whether or not the infinite loop contains any external effects (including I/O, interrupts, accesses to volatile variables, and "do not optimize" flags).
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00:49:19 <oerjan> <oren> hackego isn't running irssi? <-- why in the world would a bot use irssi
00:50:04 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
00:50:08 <HackEgo> oerjan/Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
00:50:08 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
00:50:09 <oerjan> it sounds like the worst possible thing to parse the output of
00:50:37 <oren_> zzo38: I would say that whether a program terminates is the most fundamental side effect
00:50:39 <shachaf> considering making slashlearn use mk
00:50:53 <oerjan> oren_: unless it's actually written in irssi script, that is.
00:52:33 <zzo38> oren_: Yes it is, therefore a "do not optimize" flag after the loop also has to avoid it since the loop terminated, reaching the "do not optimize" flag even though it is supposed to be unreachable. This can make it a bit difficult.
00:53:15 <zzo38> Otherwise the infinite loop should just be optimized into a single command which specifies that it is an infinite loop.
00:53:58 <zzo38> So, I say it should optimize it, but rather than removing it entirely, it needs to optimize into a "please wait forever" command.
00:54:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm all for modularization hth
00:54:56 <shachaf> oerjan: so you're ok using // instead of /?
00:55:03 <zzo38> And then, the C interface of the instruction architecture and operating system defines what the "please wait forever" command means.
00:55:19 <zzo38> I say that slashlearn shouldn't be changed in this way; if you need it, use mk instead
00:55:22 <oerjan> shachaf: well it's a feature
00:55:56 <shachaf> i'll make le/rn use / and le//rn use //
00:56:32 <oren_> Looks like they alread know about this bug,
00:57:23 <zzo38> Regardless of how "please wait forever" is defined though, the specification must require that if the command ever returns, what happens afterward is undefined unless the program halts immediately; if it does halt immediately, it must be an error condition if the operating system supports these kind of error conditions.
00:57:42 <zzo38> It is allowed to define "please wait forever" as a simple infinite loop too though.
00:57:42 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
00:58:58 <zzo38> That's my opinion: If the infinite loop contains no external effects, it is allowed to optimize it into a "please wait forever" command. Does this seem like OK? (This also mean you can find this command in the optimized intermediate code if you look)
01:00:29 <oren_> There is a halt instruction on many architectures
01:05:48 <zzo38> Presumably on most systems it would actually compile into a program that does nothing and never finishes. For LLVM the "please wait forever" command would be considered as terminating a basic block; therefore the stuff after the infinite loop can be deleted by the optimizer.
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01:25:28 <zzo38> SELECT TOTAL(RDF_VALUE(X))/COUNT() FROM G { ? a :Person; :age ?X }; -- That is a kind of "SQL+G" that I almost made up (but didn't implement), so that you can combine SQL with RDF.
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01:31:08 <zzo38> (Assumes that you have already issued a CREATE PREFIX or CREATE TEMPORARY PREFIX command to define the empty string prefix.)
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02:29:26 <oren_> Damn. My algorithm does the most work when there isn;t any work to be doen
02:29:55 <oren_> I need to cahe the results somehow
02:31:28 <oren_> i only need like, 2 bits
02:31:51 <oren_> those are some expensive bits to compute
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07:03:59 <zzo38> fowl: What is that?
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07:22:03 <fowl> zzo38: I'm writing a VM and and and it just did a correct operation
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07:45:56 <zzo38> Why can't I post a comment on http://www.websnark.com/archives/2005/10/god_shot_think.html ? It displays an error message but the HTTP response code is actually 200 OK
07:46:07 <zzo38> "Got an error: Bad ObjectDriver config"
07:48:08 <zzo38> Henn is bad too, but that is not seen in the pictures displayed there.
07:49:07 <zzo38> (As far as I am concerned, you can see from the full context that Suzy and Henn are both bad.)
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08:31:36 <mroman> paul2520: Oh. hackmode has been removed from Burlesque anyway. I'll remove the link.
08:37:40 <zzo38> OK, what is that hackmode that has been removed?
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09:05:50 <mroman> zzo38: It mapped Burlesque commands to single bytes
09:06:10 <mroman> but since Burlesque now has way more than 256 commands
09:06:38 <mroman> There are 388 non-special builtin-ins as of now.
09:09:08 <mroman> although 1.7.3 probably had less
09:11:17 <mroman> I'm updating the lref for 1.7.4 now
09:11:25 <mroman> and then maybe I can convince shinh to update it on anagol
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09:20:39 <zzo38> You could still use Huffman coding or VLQ coding
09:23:57 <zzo38> To make secure communication on internet what you should need is to avoid webpages completely and instead do this: Manually agree the keys in person, including a security card that displays a number and automatically updates by time. Server sends a challenge that is encrypted using a hashcode of your password and the security number as the key. Client then responds to the challenge and communicates securely using session keys.
09:28:37 <zzo38> (If you are paranoid, use two such security cards; one locked in your desk drawer and one in your pocket.)
09:33:17 <mroman> Netflix seems paranoid
09:33:23 <mroman> Doesn't even support paypal well.
09:33:55 <mroman> (meaning you can't pay with paypal pre-paid)
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10:03:15 <mroman> The US could just ban toy weapons...
10:04:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43207 * Rdococ * (+2001) PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
10:05:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43208&oldid=43068 * Rdococ * (+55) PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC again
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10:10:29 <mroman> Although arguably there should be better methods to take such people out without injuring them too badly.
10:11:44 <mroman> also don't give pellet guns to 12 year olds. That's stupid anyway.
10:15:43 <mroman> in general I don't like people who accuse you of doing something wrong without first discussing what should've/could've been done. Even if you clearly did something wrong, it's not a constructive thing to do.
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10:18:10 <mroman> although it looks like the us police's method is "disable threat as quickly as possible"
10:18:18 <mroman> compared to "isolate threat as quickly as possible, then proceed"
10:19:32 <mroman> and this is of course incredibly generalizing and based on no data other than some of the news report I got my hands on ;)
10:41:56 <HackEgo> Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
10:41:58 <HackEgo> grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
10:42:02 <HackEgo> Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
10:44:24 <boily> how do I notes again... and is that a universal currency over there?
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10:53:59 <boily> @tell oerjan your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it!
10:54:42 <boily> @tell oerjan (on the other hand, syntastic is complaining like crazy)
10:59:35 <boily> and looks like I'm missing some other stuff. stuff that will be fixed after lots of coffee, nutella toasts, and half a tournament.
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12:55:36 <fungot> mroman: we're wednesday and the earth!! god bless america!! i want a cl/ fnord thing there.
12:56:08 <mroman> at least fungot seems to be patriotic.
12:56:09 <fungot> mroman: it was close. because of erlang's guard clause syntax, it's a catastrophe. between that book, actually.
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14:40:09 <tswett> Hey everyone, remember boiljan?
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15:15:37 <b_jonas> quick question. can a 400 character long alt text written literally in a HTML attribute cause any compatibility problems on browsers? eg. could it cause the image not to show up?
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16:46:23 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: IME even on super old browsers, long alt text tags just get cut off.
16:50:22 <oren_> hmm. Paradoxically, the cpu load is higher when memoizing previous results, than when computing them over and over again
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16:51:54 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: I was worried that maybe some parsers will reject the whole entity because it's too long, and assume it's an unescaped less than sign
16:52:29 <J_Arcane> Could be, but the last time I saw a problem with an alt-text, it was that exact one, and it was in the days of like, Netscape Navigator.
16:52:44 <J_Arcane> It's possible a newer one might be more likely to complain than an older one. :D
16:53:23 <b_jonas> I don't care if the alt text is just truncated
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17:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Genesis]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43209 * 78.148.92.128 * (+65937) Created page with "Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God mov..."
17:32:24 <gamemanj> Um, that doesn't look like an esolang...
17:34:01 <nys> don't be narrow-minded, now
17:38:39 <J_Arcane> gamemanj: long, unintelligible, prone to contradictions, and impossible to assemble a coherent logical system from. Sounds like an esolang to me.
17:52:23 <gamemanj> J_Arcane: Along with features that should never be used (such as a certain type of tree), yet are anyway?
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18:09:25 <J_Arcane> Perl Cannot Be Parsed: A Formal Proof http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393
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18:42:38 <quintopia> is there a type of oracle that can answer questions that could not be answered with the use of a halting oracle?
18:43:51 <Taneb> Fundamental Truth Oracle
18:45:11 <pikhq> The Turing-machine-plus-halting-oracle halting oracle.
18:50:06 <tromp_> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy
18:50:51 <quintopia> Taneb: i meant without assuming omniscience.
18:51:27 <int-e> quintopia: then you don't have an oracle?
18:52:03 <quintopia> int-e: a halting oracle is not omniscient! it can tell you if your program halts, but it can't tell you your middle name.
18:52:22 <int-e> quintopia: right. go with pikhq's answer then
18:52:43 <pikhq> My middle name is Joseph iff your program halts.
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18:54:47 <quintopia> huh. my program was "if (pikhq_middle_name == "Joseph") exit(0) else: while true: pass"
18:55:28 <int-e> what a remarkable coincidence
18:55:46 <int-e> so now that the universe is inconsistent, let's have some fun...
18:56:30 <quintopia> good thing pikhq's middle name has no bearing of the contents of the string pikhq_middle_name...
18:56:49 <int-e> (let's convince a bank that 1 = 0, say, and use that fact to withdraw tons of money... I suspect there is some sort of flaw in that plan)
18:58:49 <b_jonas> int-e: http://www.xkcd.com/816/
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19:06:48 <gamemanj> Especially read the title text, it points out a flaw in your plan
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19:15:29 <int-e> I had forgotten about this xkcd although it looks like one that I should've remembered.
19:26:43 <zzo38> I don't expect a bank to believe it; and even if they do it would be for number systems (such as the trivial ring) which is not applicable to how much money is in your bank account.
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19:28:53 <b_jonas> http://www.xkcd.com/704/ is also relevant
19:29:57 <gamemanj> Hey, if anything can be derived, does that make Malbolge usable by humans?
19:38:47 <fowl> If Perl parses Perl then Perl must not be unparsable
19:41:42 <gamemanj> fowl: The point seems to be that you can't parse it without executing it to find out the meanings of some parts.
19:45:26 <pikhq> Which is to say parsing Perl is computationally equivalent to executing a universal Turing machine.
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19:49:47 <zzo38> Not only Perl, but also Forth and TeX
19:52:58 <fowl> gamemanj, im not sure about that
19:53:03 <fowl> no functions in perl take arguments
19:56:20 <oren_> fowl: they don't take NAMED arguments
19:56:51 <oren_> however when you call x with x(3,4), then inside x, you can get 3 and 4 as
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20:33:36 <tswett> Combientièm is, of course, unparseable, for the same reason that Forth is.
20:35:37 <tswett> Combientièm seems complex enough that Turing-completeness is likely.
20:46:49 <zzo38> I have implementation of biquad filter with four coefficients and I figured out that you can use -1 0 0 0 BIQ and 0 0 1 0 BIQ to seem to make up derivative and antiderivatives.
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21:40:27 <shachaf> `le/rn equal temperament/Equal temperament is just intonation that's evenly spaced.
21:40:33 <HackEgo> Learned «equal temperament»
21:41:44 <HackEgo> nimby/NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
21:41:45 <HackEgo> arrow/Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
21:41:48 <HackEgo> rtf/RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
21:43:12 <zzo38> I don't know who Rich Burlew is
21:45:09 <zzo38> O, now I can see on Wikipedia
21:45:19 <Taneb> `culprits tanebvention
21:45:24 <zzo38> He makes stick figures.
21:45:26 <Taneb> `culprits wisdom/tanebvention
21:45:28 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan FireFly oerjan boily oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan
21:46:29 <zzo38> I don't use miniature figures for Dungeons&Dragons though, just graph paper
21:46:36 <FireFly> `` culprits wisdom/tanebvention | sed 's/\<[dop]/:&/g'
21:46:37 <HackEgo> :oerjan Taneb :oerjan elliott :oerjan :oerjan FireFly :oerjan boily :oerjan ais523 ais523 :oerjan
21:46:45 <FireFly> well that was a bit disappointing
21:47:18 <zzo38> What are you trying to do?
21:47:26 <Taneb> zzo38, when I play we generally just sort of imagine it
21:47:42 <Taneb> If we need reference we use miniatures on an erasable surface like a whiteboard
21:48:13 <zzo38> When I play also we just generally imagine it, but use graph paper when we want to know where everything is in relation to other things more precisely.
21:49:05 <Taneb> In one of the games we are in we are hiding in an airship meant as a decoy for us (arranged without our knowledge)
21:49:19 <Taneb> The logic being that no-one would think to search the decoy
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21:51:46 <zzo38> Yes, that is one idea of where to hide.
21:52:09 <HackEgo> orin/orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
21:52:15 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus/lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
21:52:19 <HackEgo> orin/orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
21:52:52 <HackEgo> ørjan/Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
21:53:16 <zzo38> Generally though in my game when we hide, they often find us anyways because enough people are looking for us with enough persistence that they will eventually succeed. But sometimes I decide to hide in the future instead.
21:53:46 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf shachaf
21:53:55 <Taneb> zzo38, none of our party are time travellers (yet)
21:54:30 <Taneb> (the party's wizard may become a time traveller later)
21:54:36 <zzo38> Well, I can jump forward in time and take some other creatures and objects too, but that uses up power points and it doesn't go all that far either.
21:55:10 <zzo38> (I have hidden objects in the future too, not only characters)
21:55:12 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
21:55:15 <HackEgo> structsubural type/Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction.
21:55:35 <HackEgo> alice/Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
21:55:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: a time traveller wizard? nice
21:55:54 <b_jonas> wait, power points? are you a psion?
21:56:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: It isn't very powerful time travel
21:56:08 <zzo38> Yes, psionics and wizard, both
21:56:24 <b_jonas> there are people who do both psionics and wizardry?
21:56:39 <b_jonas> that's a combination I wouldn't have imagined
21:56:42 <Taneb> b_jonas, our wizard is also a rogue
21:56:51 <Taneb> My character is just a cleric though
21:56:57 <zzo38> And my sister played a sorcerer/fighter combination
21:57:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: in what order did that happen, and what are the relative power of your relative strengths in psionisc and wizardry, and what did you do that helps both?
21:57:24 <Taneb> I keep a "kill" count of enemies I have forced to leave combat (I am playing as a pacifist)
21:57:29 <Taneb> It is on 17 and I am level 3
21:57:31 <b_jonas> do you use many magic items? do you create magic items?
21:57:39 <zzo38> I don't use many magic items or create any
21:57:51 <zzo38> Refer to my "level20.tex" file for full details.
21:57:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can understand sorcerer/fighter
21:58:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what's its url again?
21:58:09 <Taneb> zzo38, which edition do you play?
21:58:49 <zzo38> I started without a spellbook, and therefore couldn't cast many spells except the mastered spells, until finally figuring out the spells again in spare time and writing them down in a book.
21:59:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:59:15 <Taneb> I am in a game of 4th edition (where I play the pacifist cleric), and a game of 5th edition (where I play a paladin who is not pacifist)
21:59:29 <zzo38> (The file is pretty long; read all of it if you *really* want to understand)
22:00:22 <zzo38> I also wrote all of the macros by myself too, which includes sorting skills in alphabetical order automatically, keeping track of items and levels, footnotes, and more
22:01:58 <Taneb> Goodnight everyone
22:05:01 <zzo38> I started the game without any items at all.
22:05:37 <zzo38> So did my brother's character, Also
22:05:42 <zzo38> (Also is his name)
22:06:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: did you start as a wizard?
22:06:53 <zzo38> It says so on the page
22:06:59 <zzo38> But I started with enough levels to have both
22:07:42 <b_jonas> I should be reading the character sheet at the start
22:08:10 <zzo38> (The .dvi is available too if you want a prerendered copy; that one only includes the character sheet at the end though.)
22:08:33 <b_jonas> no thanks, tex is easier to read
22:08:58 <zzo38> (If you want a character sheet before each session, you must compile it youself; it will then ask you what level of detail you want, such s to omit footnotes and to omit character sheets and so on)
22:09:35 <zzo38> To compile it yourself you need the "dungeonsrecording.tex" file too (in the same directory)
22:09:44 <b_jonas> hmm, these starting ability scores seem funny. are those normal for an illithid?
22:10:05 <b_jonas> isn't he supposed to have a dump stat or something?
22:10:10 <zzo38> I used the "Goldilock's Method", which is something in between random and point-base
22:10:38 <zzo38> (And a program on my TI-92 calculator to calculate it)
22:11:12 <b_jonas> sure, but did you get adjustments for being an illithid?
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22:12:13 <zzo38> Those are factored in to the "Goldilock's Method".
22:12:32 <zzo38> Although you also get bonuses for high level too.
22:13:19 <b_jonas> yes, but even with high level it seems to high and too uniform
22:13:32 <b_jonas> a very high level character would likely have a dump stat
22:15:28 <zzo38> When characters have high ability scores due to species the level adjustment compensates for this (and other things)
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22:15:59 <zzo38> The reason for being uniform is mainly due to the Goldilock's Method though; it is possible to make less uniform scores, but not always. I can explain its working
22:16:40 <b_jonas> (I have two dump stats in real life. I don't know how easy it is to guess that from irc.)
22:17:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I also don't know how easy it is to guess; I never tried to think of it so I don't know
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22:17:52 <b_jonas> (People who know me well in real life can probably tell.)
22:19:20 <zzo38> [1] Choose a number 0 to 9 for each ability score (there are no limits about duplicates, the total, etc). [2] Add 1d8 to each one. [3] Convert each of these numbers into percentages of the total. [4] Use a lookup table to convert into plain numbers. [5] Apply racial modifiers. [6] Repeat steps 2-5 to create another set of ability scores. [7] Choose one. [8] Get 2 bonus points (or 3 if the total without the racial modifiers is less than 70).
22:19:25 <b_jonas> oh, I see! you get psionic abilities not from a player class, but from a race class!
22:19:29 <b_jonas> that makes much more sense
22:20:23 <zzo38> Some people say this method results in unusually *low* scores. Actually, they result in about average scores, although you don't have as much control as you do with a full point-based system.
22:20:54 <b_jonas> sure, full point-based gives you ultimate control
22:20:55 <zzo38> The numbers you choose in step [1] are too high, they will become more uniform than you might want.
22:21:26 <b_jonas> and if they are low, then step [2] will screw them up
22:21:57 <zzo38> Best is probably choosing high numbers for scores you want high.
22:22:13 <zzo38> But remember you do get two chances to apply step [2].
22:23:23 <b_jonas> are racial modifiers constant terms you add? or are they more complicated?
22:23:49 <zzo38> They are constant terms (usually even numbers) that you add (or sometimes subtract, but subtracting is rare when the level adjustment is high).
22:24:17 <b_jonas> I don't recognize most of these psionic abilities and some of the spells, but that's normal
22:24:51 <zzo38> Some of them are obscure.
22:25:17 <zzo38> And a few of them I even made up and got reviewed from the referee and other people.
22:26:11 <b_jonas> oh right, this is the non-flying type of illithid. that's why it has feather fall.
22:27:01 <b_jonas> but I don't get this. how many levels of each class do you have? I don't see that in the character sheet.
22:27:41 <zzo38> That is what the \Class command does.
22:28:04 <zzo38> The \RacialHD are also levels, and \LevelAdjustment are pseudolevels.
22:28:20 <b_jonas> oh, so, both \Class Wizard=5 and \RacialHD=8
22:28:53 <b_jonas> isn't \LevelAdjustment the challenge rating (difficulty) adjustment, which adjust how much XP you get and what encounters are considered fair?
22:29:12 <zzo38> No, level adjustment is independent of challenge rating (which we ignore).
22:29:15 <b_jonas> s/encounters/encounters and other challenges/
22:29:21 <zzo38> For calculating experience points, pseudolevels count too; for other purposes (such as the amount you heal), pseudolevels aren't counted.
22:29:58 <b_jonas> but the experience points tell what challenges are considered fair, do they not?
22:30:44 <zzo38> They generally are supposed to (LA is for PCs and CR for NPCs is generally the consideration, kind of), but our group just ignores CR and uses only ad hoc XP.
22:31:24 <b_jonas> and that applies both when you defeat a challenge and get XP, and when you are defeated and someone else gets XP from you, right?
22:31:58 <zzo38> The winner's LA and loser's CR is generally what is supposed to apply.
22:32:16 <zzo38> (But NPC's XP are rarely kept track of, but sometimes are)
22:32:47 <b_jonas> wait, does that mean that in this game your level adjustment only matters if someone gains XP from from you?
22:33:09 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the adjustment tells how much XP you need to get the next XL?
22:33:13 <zzo38> No. Level adjustment is used to figure out how much experience points you need.
22:33:32 <b_jonas> though if you use ad-hoc XP then that probably doesn't mean much either
22:33:34 <zzo38> So your total real levels + pseudo levels is the level that you need to reach by experience points.
22:33:47 <b_jonas> thank you for the explanation
22:34:19 <zzo38> So it *is* important; it makes it harder to go up levels, and whatever level you start at, the level adjustment therefore decreases your starting level (but not your experience level) to compensate.
22:35:09 <b_jonas> sure, but the input is the ad-hoc XP
22:35:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, plus the starting level.
22:36:00 <b_jonas> you could just as well track ad-hoc fractional XLs, without counting XPs, and give the ad-hoc XLs so it's harder to level (but also harder to lose a level from spending XP)
22:36:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think that is more complicated though and makes it difficult
22:37:05 <zzo38> For example, a player enters a game starting at level 10, and chooses a character with LA+3 and RHD+2, they get to create a 7th-level character with 5 class levels, but starting with as much experience points as a 10th-level character.
22:38:16 <zzo38> If you are using the encounter XP tables, the experience level is the one that counts here. (If you aren't, then it is irrelevant unless the referee still wishes to scale by level, in which case you should probably still use experience level)
22:39:21 <zzo38> The example character will be vulnerable to spells that affect 7th-level characters (even if they don't affect 10th-level characters), will heal only 7 HP per day (rather than 10 HP), and so on.
22:40:40 <b_jonas> what? there's a racial HD adjustment that can be positive for players? and isn't it the starting CR rather than the starting XL that's supposed to be specified, rather than the starting XP?
22:40:48 <zzo38> My own game design (which is extremely incomplete and mostly abandoned) doesn't use the term "level adjustment", but it does have "pseudolevels" which is the similar concept.
22:41:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, there can be. And it is the starting experience level which the game master specifies.
22:41:50 <zzo38> (However, specifying starting XP also implies what the starting experience level is anyways.)
22:42:36 <b_jonas> I mean it seems you specified the real starting XL, rather than the one adjusted with the LA.
22:42:43 <b_jonas> that's what I find strange
22:43:15 <zzo38> The LA makes makes the actual level less than the experience level.
22:44:06 <zzo38> For balacing purposes it is common to specify the starting experience level or experience points instead of only counting real levels.
22:44:08 <b_jonas> well, I guess specifying a starting XL is also how crawl works,
22:44:18 <b_jonas> but that's a single-player game
22:44:49 <b_jonas> isn't it approximately equal _adjusted_ levels that would make a better adventuring band of player characters?
22:45:16 <zzo38> It is; the term "level adjustment" is a bit confusing and I don't like it; it should be called "pseudolevels".
22:45:52 <b_jonas> maybe this is why the CR and the adjusted level are separate
22:45:57 <zzo38> (i.e. actual levels + pseudo levels = experience level)
22:46:13 <b_jonas> the adjusted level tells how fast you gain levels, the CR tells how powerful you are
22:46:27 <b_jonas> if you share XP equally, then you'd level equally if you had the same adjusted level
22:46:46 <b_jonas> s/share XP/share XP gains/
22:47:18 <zzo38> If you use encounter XP tables and have the same experience level, and you share them biased by level, you do all level equally.
22:48:09 <b_jonas> but maybe all that's irrelevant here because you have only two players and they're both of races with a high positive adjustment
22:48:09 <zzo38> So if your experience level is 10, it is as hard to level up as any 10th-level character, even if your actual level is only 5.
22:48:19 <b_jonas> not, like, a doppelganger and an orc
22:48:56 <zzo38> Actually more players join the game later, and some also leave later. Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe is the only character that remains (so far; possibly one of the others might return later?)
22:49:17 <b_jonas> for how long in real world time has this game been running?
22:49:25 <zzo38> Look at the session headings.
22:49:49 <zzo38> (Search for the first and last instances of "\session" in the document.)
22:50:11 <zzo38> (And then subtract the dates. But remember it still isn't complete, so you might want to use today's date instead)
22:50:58 <b_jonas> basically about four years so far
22:51:25 <zzo38> I intend also improving the story line, and I have a trope page (and trope RDF file) about it too.
22:53:25 <zzo38> http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/level20.tex
22:53:38 <zzo38> That's the trope page on wiki.
22:53:47 <b_jonas> sorry, I won't look at that now
22:54:21 <zzo38> OK, you can look later (or not at all if you really hate to look at it ever, but you are allowed to change your mind later too)
22:54:34 <zzo38> And the RDF is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope
22:57:33 <b_jonas> basically, I just spent most of today (and some of yesterday) standing in awe because of the new special and awesome MLP episode, finding more and more awesome details and references in it (sometimes alone, sometimes after reading spoilers)
22:58:08 <b_jonas> I'm not going to attempt looking at any other fiction work in detail now
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23:02:19 <b_jonas> it's basically a deliberately very unique special celebratory episode that's different from normal episodes.
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23:03:05 <b_jonas> I totally didn't expect this, and it's awesome.
23:03:22 <zzo38> What is tihs episode?
23:04:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's S5 E9 "Slice of Life" (gimmick scheduled for this particular episode because it's the 100th ep of the tv series)
23:04:41 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 10m 43s ago: your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it!
23:04:41 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 10m ago: (on the other hand, syntastic is complaining like crazy)
23:05:04 <b_jonas> and it's an episode celebrating and thanking the unique fandom the series (in slightly broader sense) has gathered
23:06:05 <b_jonas> it does this by presenting a story where the regular main and secondary characters appear very little, several background characters are expanded, and canonizes a selection of fan speculation about them
23:06:55 <b_jonas> and has lots of (sometimes well hidden) funny little details, references to previous episodes of the series, and references to fanon
23:07:02 <zzo38> Ah, so that's what it is.
23:07:11 <b_jonas> also some references to other fictional universes
23:07:32 <b_jonas> and it manages to be heartwarming and amazing according to many people
23:07:39 <zzo38> I know a lot of people like this TV show.
23:07:55 <b_jonas> (obviously you can always find some people who don't like any one particular episode, there are a few for this too)
23:08:03 <oerjan> zzo38: those must be some strange people
23:08:03 <b_jonas> (you can't go for universal acclaim)
23:08:16 <oerjan> (also i need my brain's parser recalibrated)
23:08:47 <zzo38> I know, this may happen even with other TV shows too, chapters in a book, comic strip, whatever, where some people might not like some of them, even people who mostly like it in general.
23:08:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, in particular, a lot of geeks are watching it, so there's even a little intersection with #esoteric
23:09:09 <b_jonas> also, given that they did this for the 100th episode, it will likely be unique even in the future
23:09:23 <b_jonas> not something they'll regularly do
23:09:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: the way how many geeks seemed to like it is what made me interested in first place
23:10:44 <zzo38> Ah, well, the way how many geeks seemed to like it does seem a reason to make it worth a try at least to look at it.
23:11:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: and, I mean, they looked like they were the kind of geeks similar to me (at least some of them are)
23:12:31 <b_jonas> also, apparently it has a lot of role-playing fans
23:13:20 <b_jonas> it helps that I knew even before that that I like cartoons and like fiction that's advertized by publishers for juvenile audience
23:13:38 <b_jonas> so those heuristics matched
23:15:09 <b_jonas> also, the music of the first four seasons is nice
23:15:09 <zzo38> Well, like any one, some cartoons/fictions I like and some I don't like much. It is also a bit independent what kind if intended/advertised audience, too.
23:15:36 <zzo38> Yes, some TV shows have nice music on it
23:15:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: the "advertized for juvenile audiences" might be a red herring actually
23:15:53 <zzo38> And some computer games have nice music
23:16:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I have been told that too
23:17:20 <b_jonas> as in, I don't like romantic fiction at all, and romantic fiction is usually advertized to adults, which alone carries a lot of weight
23:17:47 <b_jonas> and I definitely grown to hate most non-fiction works advertized to children or teenagers these days
23:17:59 <b_jonas> as in, pop science books for them
23:18:12 <b_jonas> I used to sort of like them as a child
23:18:38 <zzo38> It is pretty similar for me too I think
23:19:08 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> @tell oerjan your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it! <-- actually i checked that the quotes already contained that note character.
23:19:08 <b_jonas> the day I realized Quittner Pál's booklet about popular physics contains a gross factual error where it explains sea tides might have contributed
23:19:37 <b_jonas> and obviously it may have been that I had more time reading and discovering more authors to read when I was young, and less tiem now
23:20:15 <b_jonas> so I found a lot of good authors whose works are supposed to be for children, and have difficulty finding new authors I like
23:20:37 <b_jonas> oh, did I mention I watch few films and TV series, and prefer reading books?
23:21:15 <zzo38> I do actually don't watch TV much, and prefer book
23:29:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Genesis]]": Off topic