00:02:05 <zzo38> I expect it should be OK to do so
00:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43238&oldid=43044 * Hppavilion1 * (+111) Added arithmetic library
00:08:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43239&oldid=43238 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Fixed comment
00:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43240&oldid=43239 * Hppavilion1 * (+70) Fixed addition to use predecessor, added multiplication
00:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43241&oldid=43240 * Hppavilion1 * (+109)
00:15:47 <hppavilion1> What'd be the proper way to reference the arguments for a function in Table?
00:15:49 <rdococ> I was gonna create something like pfil
00:16:11 <rdococ> there arent any functions in Table, so there are no arguments and that is why it isnt turing complete
00:16:44 <hppavilion1> I thought that the setup in the first table program was functions
00:16:59 <hppavilion1> Like, after defining "and" you could use and in a following function
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00:17:44 <rdococ> I had the idea of making a function version, but itd be a lot like pfil
00:18:15 <hppavilion1> I think that you already have functions in the current one
00:20:03 <hppavilion1> I think Table could become a really useful language
00:20:23 <hppavilion1> I'm tempted to move my interpreter over to The Glorious Republic
00:20:53 <hppavilion1> It's esoteric more like Haskell than like Brainfuck
00:21:18 <rdococ> maybe I could make a derivative and call it Function or Data or something
00:28:06 <rdococ> cant we just call it Function?
00:28:37 <hppavilion1> And Table is more about Tables than about functions
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00:30:03 <hppavilion1> And I see whatever we call this Table derivative as an actual, used language
00:31:25 <hppavilion1> AND it sounds like a name for a language people actually use :P
00:47:55 <hppavilion1> What do you suggest? And "Function" is a bad name
00:49:20 <rdococ> its not the name thats bothering me
00:49:46 <hppavilion1> The fact that Peano had nothing to do with it?
00:52:38 <hppavilion1> We're discussing the Table derivative, right?
00:53:02 <rdococ> I dont want to make it
00:53:10 <rdococ> its too...idk...not unique
00:53:47 <hppavilion1> Similar to haskell only as far as python is similar to java
00:57:21 <rdococ> what about PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:00:02 <rdococ> I want you to take a look at it
01:01:14 <hppavilion1> You want me to implement PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:07:24 <hppavilion1> Do I have to make it so programs can look like PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC or can I split by spaces?
01:08:34 <rdococ> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
01:08:59 <hppavilion1> But do scripts have to be able to look like PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
01:09:18 <rdococ> you didnt read the article did you
01:14:13 <hppavilion1> Can I make a slight modification that stays inline with the language?
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01:17:20 <rdococ> variables... exist in PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:17:31 <rdococ> read the article again
01:18:38 <HackEgo> friendship/friendship wisdom
01:18:44 <HackEgo> doodad/Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
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01:22:21 <boily> rdhellococ. helloppavilion1. shellochaf.
01:22:40 <boily> wasn't friendship supposed to be something about singing graphs, la la la ♪?
01:24:22 <rdococ> where is there a channel where I can talk about constructed human language (Esperanto for example)
01:24:44 <boily> there's at least this one hth
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01:47:11 <boily> hppavilion1: what is twh?
01:47:35 <hppavilion1> `learn sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:47:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'sine': sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:47:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sine: not found
01:47:54 <HackEgo> sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:49:11 <hppavilion1> I FINISHED MY PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC LEXER!
01:49:48 <boily> ♪ ding ♪ this is a public service announcement. please note that updates to the Wisdom will resume on... Monday... June... Twenty... Two Thousand Fifteen... at the earliest. thanks for your understanding. d'autres messages suivront.
01:51:32 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
01:55:12 <boily> hppavilion1: python's quite nice indeed.
01:55:20 <boily> rdococ: you are being unicodish hth.
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02:01:11 <rdococ> delta conlang. ∆me = -∆you
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02:16:35 <rdococ> got tummyache... ow...
02:18:38 <hppavilion1> Is PARI strictly bound to SWITCH VAR CASE VAL GOTO LINE... syntax?
02:18:54 <hppavilion1> (please say no please say no please say no)
02:20:31 <hppavilion1> And does the program crash if it fails to find an appropriate case?
02:21:16 <rdococ> no, there's a 'ELSE GOTO LINE' at the end of each instruction so
02:21:37 <hppavilion1> So that's necessary or the program is invalid?
02:22:39 <rdococ> I meant thats neccessary
02:23:07 <hppavilion1> Ensuring that it ends with a valid else statement
02:34:18 <oren> I made one called TTML (teletype markup lanuge) it's on the wiki
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02:39:03 <hppavilion1> Since HTML is often mistaken for a programming language, why not make it one?
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05:45:07 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/eurovision
05:45:25 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan
05:45:46 <oerjan> `url wisdom/eurovision
05:45:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/eurovision
05:47:19 <oerjan> `` hg log -remove wisdom/eurovision | paste
05:47:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26702 \ abort: unknown revision 'emove'!
05:47:35 <oerjan> `` hg log --remove wisdom/eurovision | paste
05:47:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.27643
05:49:50 * oerjan suddenly wonders how HackEgo's do-everything-twice workflow interacts with paste
05:50:09 <oerjan> does it create two files, only one of which gets committed?
05:51:45 <HackEgo> sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
05:52:45 * oerjan has limited patience with people who cannot use `learn correctly.
05:52:52 <oerjan> or `le/rn, for that matter.
06:03:20 <oerjan> `learn A ridicule is a tiny particle composed of bad jokes.
06:03:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'ridicule': A ridicule is a tiny particle composed of bad jokes.
06:43:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43242&oldid=43233 * Oerjan * (+267) Sorry
06:44:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43243&oldid=43229 * Oerjan * (-1) /* D */ Ho hum
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07:00:39 <Edit> Gah disconnects
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07:03:56 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: in his program
07:05:47 <oerjan> the internet: nothing but trouble since 1982
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07:18:13 <Sgeo> Racket 6.2 released
07:24:39 <izabera> There are two types of people: 1) Those, who start their indices with 1 1) Those, who start their indices with 0.
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07:27:19 <izabera> -.- you're a bunch of unfunny nerds
07:27:56 * oerjan throws a cream pie at izabera
07:28:31 <oerjan> because (0) that jokes is _so_ old (2) i was browsing something else
07:29:11 <izabera> There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.
07:29:17 <izabera> There are two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.
07:29:44 <izabera> if you don't laugh, i'll keep going
07:30:12 <izabera> next will be jokes about the binary system
07:30:35 <oerjan> there are three hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, off-by-one errors, and ruthless efficiency.
07:31:48 * oerjan suddenly notices izabera's nick looks suspiciously spanish. what have i done?
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07:32:38 <izabera> you don't even speak spanish
07:32:54 <oerjan> oh actually google thinks it's basque, means aunt.
07:33:09 <oerjan> but that's still mostly in spain, for now.
07:33:33 <izabera> izabera is how you write isabella in katakana
07:33:52 <oerjan> yeah i see that if i force google translate to try with japanese
07:36:07 * oerjan realizes his "ruthless efficiency" was off-by-one, it should have been "an almost fanatical devotion to the pope"
07:55:45 <Jafet> The naming-things thing? We need a better name for that.
08:01:06 <oerjan> Jafet: the verbinator hth
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09:35:47 <Taneb> I'm going to be working with Apache Thrift very soon, so I need to work out what Apache Thrift is
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09:38:45 <Taneb> It's a sort of layer for communicating between two different programming languages
09:38:57 <b_jonas> hehe, someone asks a question innocently, to which someone else replies that it's complicated and there are entire books written on research about just that one question. that's always funny.
09:39:19 <Taneb> It has a universal way of defining data types
09:39:28 <Taneb> ("universal", it supports around 20 languages)
09:39:52 <Taneb> So you can write your datatype declarations in Thrift and it generates C, Java, Haskell, whatever
09:40:05 <Taneb> http://thrift.apache.org/
09:40:48 <b_jonas> Taneb: ah, I have those kinds of things. serializers that are supposed to serialize and deserialize any kind of data, or universal wrappers that are supposed to wrap any function or class to call from another language. I hate them.
09:41:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, any particular reason?
09:41:42 <rdococ> or, just use a single language for it all
09:42:27 <b_jonas> I think the specifics of how the data is used have to be taken into account, and save/load functions and foreign wrappers should be written partly by hand, and even if you use some general framework for it, you should use lots of annotations about specifics for them so you can control all the details.
09:43:01 <b_jonas> I just don't think the universal serializers are a good idea, because different languages have very different ideas about how data should be represented to be usable well.
09:43:24 <rdococ> the PFIL article is empty...
09:43:52 <Taneb> rdococ, using a single language is often undesirable, different languages are better for different things
09:44:49 <b_jonas> Plus also, those serialized representation languages like json and all the more complicated ones almost never seem to be able to represent both character strings and byte arrays, even though I think both of those are important. And many of them don't even have sensible ways to represent numbers.
09:45:05 <b_jonas> And that's even before you get into automatic serialization of data structures into them.
09:45:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, yes, it is a little problematic like that (your first point), but I think that often things like this are a quick solution and that is all that is needed
09:45:44 <Taneb> And thrift seems to do numbers nicely :)
09:46:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, exactly, which is why automatically wrapping between them is useless. If you try to force a common data representation and function call system on multiple languages, you LOSE most of the important advantages of the different languages in first place.
09:47:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: those wrapper stuffs works when someone invents a supposedly "revolutionary new programming language" that's actually just C or java or ruby with slightly different syntax, and then is lazy to port libraries to it, so wraps the corresponding C or java or ruby libraries to it in a straightforward way, which just proves that his language doesn't really do anything new.
09:48:13 <Taneb> b_jonas, Thrift seems quite nice and not failing the failures you seem to find common, but I am just learning it and do not have much experience in this area so I cannot really explain satisfactorily
09:48:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, numbers aren't _always_ bad, numbers are actually probably a case where you can make wrapping possible, because there's only like a few dozen useful ways to represent numbers in both languages, so you can write conversion to each of the at most few hundred pairs of them that is ever useful.
09:49:25 <Jafet> b_jonas: welcome to the channel for revolutionary new programming language design and deployment
09:49:41 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, but they aren't even always esoteric
09:50:01 <b_jonas> as in, sometimes the intention is to build a practical language
09:50:05 <Taneb> Although Thrift was originally designed for Facebook's internal needs so has the features they wanted and has good support for the languages they were using at the time
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09:51:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: well, designing the system for a particular well-defined use case is at least a plus. If you have a particular need for wrappers or serializers or frameworks, sure, go on. But don't expect me to believe that it's some sort of universal silver bullet for a very general task.
09:52:10 <Taneb> b_jonas, I didn't intend to
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09:54:23 <rdococ> "for a very general task" said every programming language ever
09:54:57 <Jafet> Silver bullets, ideal for shooting one's foot
09:55:29 <b_jonas> Jafet: huh? why would I do that, I'm not specifically vulnerable to silver, so an ordinary bullet would work.
09:56:57 <gamemanj> Would be a waste of silver, too.
09:57:43 <rdococ> yeah use a dirt bullet instead
09:58:24 <gamemanj> (because there's no reason to shoot b_jonas)
09:58:49 <rdococ> (yeah, why not shoot everyone else too?)
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10:00:33 <Taneb> I would advocate against shooting everyone
10:01:33 <Taneb> rdococ, it tends to annoy a lot of people
10:01:47 <Taneb> Who might try and shoot you first or throw you in jail or something
10:02:11 -!- lleu has joined.
10:02:36 <rdococ> what, you think I didn't know that? why would I shoot anybody? I never said I wanted to...
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10:18:38 <b_jonas> these spammers should learn some Hungarian. they send machine-translated scam messages (mostly email account related phishing) that have terrible machine translated text
10:19:18 <gamemanj> When shooting people becomes fashionable... the world will be mad...
10:19:51 <rdococ> well, feminism is already fashionable, and I dont like that
10:20:10 <rdococ> I absolutely hate feminism for claiming to be equal, yet only solving one gender's problems
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10:21:48 <b_jonas> meanwhile, the airline is sending me ads to buy extras for the airplane tickets I bought, with crazy text like “Do you have everything prepared for your journey?” I don't, duh, because it's still months away, I'm not in a hurry.
10:22:10 <b_jonas> why would I buy stuff now when I can do it later as I decide on the details?
10:22:22 <b_jonas> I'm visiting Sweden in August
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10:53:27 <b_jonas> just to be clear, when Americans say “Eastern time”, that means the USA/New York time zone, the one that's -04:00 in the summer, right?
11:03:02 <b_jonas> rdococ: I did better, I checked timeanddate.com , but "Eastern time" is so ambiguous and used for like five timezones that I can never be sure
11:03:19 <b_jonas> "Eastern time (North America)" would be fine, but I'm reading a note that says "Eastern time" only
11:03:34 <b_jonas> and it's from either an American or a Canadian
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11:07:35 <rdococ> write back to them asking to clarify
11:09:00 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, I'll look up the same info from other sources instead
11:09:16 <b_jonas> it's not a one-one-one meeting request, but a public event
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11:20:32 <Taneb> b_jonas, thinking about it, I think EST refers specifically to GMT-5
11:20:59 <Taneb> Although Eastern Time...
11:21:03 <Taneb> Aaaah, this is ambiguous
11:21:08 <Taneb> It's either GMT-5 or -4
11:21:12 <Taneb> I'd show up early and bring a book
11:22:44 <b_jonas> it's clearly in the summer, as in very soon, so it's summer time
11:23:59 <b_jonas> oh wait, north america has a few territories that don't use DST at all, right?
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12:06:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asterisks * New user account
12:07:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43244&oldid=43187 * Asterisks * (+4) /* General languages */
12:10:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43245&oldid=43244 * Asterisks * (+36) /* General languages */
12:12:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[*]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43246 * Asterisks * (+161) Simply Asterisks
12:13:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43247&oldid=43246 * Asterisks * (+6)
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14:04:49 <nys> anybody know how newtypes were represented in haskell before System FC? >.>
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14:13:35 <nys> er, in GHC i mean
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14:38:59 <HackEgo> monad/Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
14:39:04 <HackEgo> taneb/Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
14:39:49 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
14:40:23 <b_jonas> nys: dunno, as newtypes are mostly the same as strict data (which I think haskell compilers have anyway), except for some deriving rules, I just assumed they're always represented as strict data
14:45:40 <HackEgo> cake/The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
14:45:50 <HackEgo> m–rdalsjökull/M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
14:46:03 <boily> that was a weird one...
14:46:15 <lambdabot> KATL 201421Z 25009G15KT 10SM BKN023 28/22 A3007 RMK AO2
14:46:23 <lambdabot> CYQB 201400Z 00000KT 30SM FEW050 BKN240 16/07 A3010 RMK CU1CI5 CU TR SLP192
14:46:30 <boily> yup. 28 is draconic enough.
14:48:06 <HackEgo> funpun/funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
14:48:17 <nys> b_jonas: i thought strict data needed an actual container to match on?
14:48:21 <HackEgo> vastre prophy dispel shiberwher sphospi loro lutterin rome jdgeme commetalome
14:48:56 <b_jonas> nys: if it's strict data, would it have a container? wouldn't it be represented as just a struct of its members?
14:49:10 <b_jonas> or does that not work well with the runtime system for passing it to functions?
14:49:11 <nys> yeah that's what i mean
14:49:22 <nys> i don't think newtypes are actually contained within anything
14:49:54 <b_jonas> sure, but if it has no extras, just _one_ member, then what difference does that effectively have at runtime from holding that single value without a container?
14:50:30 <b_jonas> I think the runtime system has to be able to handle non-boxed values, and pass them to functions, anyway
14:50:43 <b_jonas> because it's necessary for other optimizations, such as unboxed numbers
14:50:58 <b_jonas> but if you want a real answer, ask on #haskell or #ghc or something
14:51:10 <b_jonas> because I don't know haskell enough
14:51:14 <b_jonas> or ask oren here or something
14:51:34 <b_jonas> or the other haskell guy, there's a lot of them here for some reason, it's as if they thought Haskell was…
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14:52:56 <Jafet> Yes, we think that Haskell is a practical, accessible, serious and effective programming language
14:53:52 <Jafet> Maybe we need more weird DSLs, like the reverse state transformer monad...
14:54:41 <b_jonas> well it certainly has a good serious non-esoteric compiler at least
14:57:18 <Melvar> IIRC a newtype specifically means that there is no wrapper: The runtime representation is exactly the same as the contained type, and the constructor and projection become identity functions.
14:57:59 <shachaf> That's the intent, but the Report hardly talks about runtime representations enough to specify it precisely.
14:58:02 <Jafet> Not exactly: they may still have different typeclass dictionaries.
14:59:12 <Melvar> Typeclass dictionaries are separate objects.
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15:16:35 <rdococ> I want to make a language called Polynomial but it already exists
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15:18:32 <rdococ> a program p is a function that takes input i and returns program q and output o.
15:19:02 <rdococ> so in a video game program, when you take one step to the right, you get transferred to another program created on the fly in which you're one step to the right.
15:19:30 <rdococ> wait... isnt that just an FSA???
15:23:57 <Taneb> It could be like a FSA except with infinite states
15:24:05 <Taneb> Depending on how the programs are constructed
15:24:15 <Taneb> Which could make it any number of complexities
15:24:16 <rdococ> I had the idea that programs were formulae
15:24:47 <rdococ> so a program in my idea would have to be a formula that returns output and another formula (that returns output and another formula which returns ... and so on)
15:26:21 <rdococ> or, programs could just map a single input to a single output for ease
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15:37:18 <rdococ> x^2 is square cat function
15:43:44 <rdococ> if you put in 8, square cat says 64.
15:43:56 <scoofy> what if you put in 'nutella'
15:44:09 <Jafet> You get vegemite, scoofy
15:44:45 <rdococ> 10000, duh, number of calories in a tablespoon of nutella squared.
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15:45:17 <Jafet> Only if you use the call-by-caloric-value evaluation strategy
15:48:24 <Taneb> What about x^7 + 2x^4 + x^3 - x - 2?
15:49:39 <b_jonas> rdococ: cat? but aren't functions actually birds?
15:50:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, functions which take functions as arguments and emit functions are
15:50:35 <Taneb> I suspect these are different
15:50:44 <b_jonas> aren't all functions like that, in that universe?
15:50:59 <b_jonas> as in, numbers are represented by birds too
15:51:07 <b_jonas> or by the name of birds at least
15:51:10 <Taneb> Therefore some birds are in fact cats
15:52:44 <Jafet> This must be what they mean by polymorphism
15:53:01 <b_jonas> yeah, but cats are a more violent representation of birds. birds take the argument in the form of a call with the other bird's name, whereas cats _eat_ birds
15:53:18 <b_jonas> I think cats aren't birds, but they're a different way to represent some birds
15:53:38 <b_jonas> and cats usually don't eat other cats
15:54:17 <Taneb> Some birds eat birds
15:56:10 <b_jonas> yes, and cats also eat rats or canned food made of birds
15:56:11 <tswett> rdococ: so far, your programming language is simply the collection of all polynomials.
15:57:47 <tswett> Hmm. Is there a polynomial function in the ring of integers modulo 10, which takes on the value 1 at 0, and 0 at all other inputs?
15:58:04 <tswett> The polynomial (1 - x)(2 - x)(3 - x)...(9 - x) doesn't work.
15:58:27 <tswett> That one's 0 at 0 despite not having (0 - x) as an obvious factor.
15:59:05 <rdococ> yes, just use interpolation duh
15:59:25 <b_jonas> ring of integers modulo 10
16:00:43 <rdococ> you can approximate it - and any other periodical function like sine, cosine, etcetera
16:02:02 <Taneb> tswett, it needs a constant factor of 1
16:14:02 <Jafet> It only exists for prime moduli (and then, it seems that the only polynomial is (n-1)x^(n-1)).
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16:50:26 <HackEgo> funciton/A funciton is the number of burgers to eat when I get one.
16:50:37 <HackEgo> el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry.
16:51:03 <Taneb> Is there a royal road to other parts of mathematics?
16:51:22 <b_jonas> http://thedoghousediaries.com/ would be better without the third panel
16:51:56 <shachaf> I guess there should be a 'camino real' entry and a symlink from 'el camino real' for consistency.
16:53:03 <HackEgo> moon/The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
16:53:17 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't think there's a royal road to any sort of geometry.
16:53:30 <shachaf> Taneb: But analytic geometry deals with the reals, presumably.
16:54:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: i don't get it hth
16:54:52 <shachaf> Oh, apparently Antiques Roadshow is a television show. Maybe I would get it if I watched the show.
16:55:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: no the tv show is irrelevant I think. or maybe that's what would make the third panel funny, I don't know.
16:56:10 <b_jonas> I've heared of such tv shows (and even seen a few ten minutes of one).
16:56:28 <HackEgo> arrow/Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
16:56:34 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
16:57:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stupidity: not found
16:57:54 <rdococ> `dumbidiotsaysnotfound
16:57:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dumbidiotsaysnotfound: not found
16:58:49 <rdococ> whats the difference between you saying `wisdom all the time and me saying stuff beginning with ` all the time?
16:59:35 <shachaf> Well, you already know the results of your things, which is an error. Every time I say `wisdom we get a new entry (though I probably do overdo it).
16:59:43 <shachaf> Also the things you said were mean and insulting.
16:59:53 <b_jonas> wow, I knew David Madore was very good in writing his blog articles to explain his thoughts well, but this long coherent sentence is brilliant.
17:00:11 <rdococ> uh... sorry, didn't know a bot had feelings... sarcasm.end;
17:00:35 <Jafet> Maybe you just need to wise up a little bit.
17:00:41 <b_jonas> it's a long sentence with a complicated nested composed structure, but it manages to hold together perfectly parseable in first try with very few extra glue particulars.
17:01:08 <b_jonas> “D'autant plus que ce n'était pas tellement le résultat du calcul qui m'intéressait, et dont je suis totalement certain qu'il est connu depuis Klein, Cayley, Clebsch ou, au pire, Segre, et qu'il figure dans quantité de livres ou d'articles, mais d'y arriver moi-même, et de façon systématique, sans essayer de « deviner » le résultat (qui, a posteriori, était éminemment devinable), bref, de vérifier que je savais mener ce calcul à bien.”
17:01:51 <b_jonas> If I learnt to write so well, I could write my damned thesis easily.
17:02:09 <b_jonas> He manages to do that with complicated mathematical content in a popular way too.
17:02:52 <b_jonas> Maybe I should put more skill points in this, even though it's cross class for me.
17:03:36 <shachaf> Is that sentence so good that I should learn French to understand it?
17:03:38 <b_jonas> Writing well requires a check with bonus from which attribute? Charisma?
17:03:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: not for that sentence, no
17:04:19 <Taneb> b_jonas, either CHA or WIS
17:04:42 <b_jonas> Wis is for perception and for strength of will.
17:05:01 <b_jonas> Ok, for more than that actually. I don't really know because it's a dump stat for me.
17:05:09 <Taneb> It's for knowing the right thing to do
17:05:28 <b_jonas> Ah, that might be a good description.
17:05:32 * gamemanj doesn't understand the sentence... but the keyword "Klein" suggests a relation to mathematical spaces...
17:07:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's a good description because it explains why strength of will and perception of the outside world can come together in a single attribute so well.
17:07:56 <tswett> In the ring of integers modulo 10, is x^5 always equal to x?
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17:08:49 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 32 243 1024 3125 7776 16807 32768 59049
17:08:53 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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17:10:37 <tswett> So certainly not all functions are polynomial functions.
17:10:56 <tswett> The number of polynomial functions is only... 10^5?
17:11:12 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 6 1 6 5 6 1 6 1
17:11:36 <tswett> Hey look, it's... those.
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17:11:57 <tswett> There's a word for a number x such that x^2 = x.
17:12:11 <Taneb> Quadratic repricorewfwief or something
17:14:19 <HackEgo> 215) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay \ 216) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000 <Vorpal> probably will suck <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 30.4 <Vorpal> what \ 223) <Deewiant> !bfjoust sm3 < <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sm3: 43.4 \ 1064) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want
17:14:46 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
17:15:21 <Jafet> `quote \S{3,}core\b
17:15:22 <HackEgo> 1064) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
17:26:01 <rdococ> but what if instead we used something like fourier did?
17:26:22 <rdococ> 3sin(3x + 2) - 3 or something
17:26:49 <Taneb> I don't think sin is well-defined in Z/10Z
17:27:23 <HackEgo> 267) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. \ 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 452) <zzo38> Pythagoras was
17:27:31 <rdococ> also there are infinitely many polynomial functions because you can just keep adding terms and stuff
17:28:03 <Taneb> There are infinitely many polynomials but only so many polynomial functions
17:28:50 <Taneb> Some polynomials define the same function (in some rings)
17:29:09 <Taneb> As was pointed out earlier, x^5 = x in Z/10Z
17:29:32 <Taneb> In fact, there are only 10^10 functions from Z/10Z to Z/10Z
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17:30:30 <rdococ> uh integers modulo 10 I think?
17:30:43 <Taneb> nortti, it is a notation for a group isomorphic to integers modulo 10
17:30:55 <rdococ> did I say I wanted this Z/10Z stuff?
17:31:17 <Taneb> rdococ, no, I was thinking of a conversation which happened in between
17:34:31 <Taneb> So yeah, disregard what I said then (although it may be interesting in its own right)
17:45:30 <tswett> !bfjoust fracko >([-]----->)*40000
17:45:33 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_fracko: 8.0
17:46:49 <Jafet> I don't think the jousting field is that long.
17:47:05 <tswett> Nobody knows for sure.
17:50:46 <tswett> So I imagine the hill just keeps the top 48 or something.
17:52:21 <oerjan> nobody knows what for sure?
17:53:05 <Taneb> oerjan, how long the jousting field is
17:53:11 <Taneb> Maybe it's three miles
17:53:34 <oerjan> i suppose, in an abstract theoretical way
17:53:56 <Jafet> I hear that it's infinitely long, but only on one side
17:54:53 <oerjan> this is rubbish, clearly once you pass the flags you fall off onto the turtle the field sits on hth
17:55:33 <Jafet> Hmm, competitive turtles
17:55:42 <HackEgo> lmt/lmt is insufficiently mad for this channel.
17:56:23 <oerjan> i think int-e must have disabled it again
17:57:05 <HackEgo> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
17:57:31 <oerjan> anyway i recall he came by sometime in the last months
17:57:43 <HackEgo> pdf/PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
17:57:47 <HackEgo> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
17:58:19 <Jafet> I suppose a competitive turtle game would proceed like lightcycle racing
17:58:24 <tswett> For every collection of turtles, there is a turtle not in the collection.
17:58:34 <tswett> For example, consider the collection of all turtles.
17:58:39 <tswett> There is a turtle not in that collection.
17:58:56 <oerjan> i find your proof incomplete hth
18:01:08 <HackEgo> goat/Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
18:01:10 <oerjan> dammit accidentally typed an n into a tatham puzzle
18:01:21 <tswett> All right, so I see that my bfjoust program isn't very effective.
18:01:27 <oerjan> wtf doesn't it allow undo past n
18:01:42 <oerjan> (not that that helps with q, which should be eviscerated)
18:02:04 <Jafet> Something something open source
18:02:49 <oerjan> it's such a stupid thing to do that it must be willfully designed.
18:03:19 <Jafet> I remember the days when firefox mapped ^Q to quit
18:03:56 <Jafet> (on most keyboards, it's next to ^W)
18:08:25 <tswett> I mean, what's tatham?
18:09:07 <Jafet> Not by default. On linux, firefox gets the ^Q binding from desktop settings.
18:10:03 <oerjan> tswett: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/
18:20:23 <tswett> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/map.html - with this one, I find myself relatively frequently depending on the fact that there's only one consistent coloring.
18:20:57 <tswett> "If this region had this color, then this region would be bordered by only two other colors, but that's impossible because there would be two consistent colorings then."
18:22:52 <oerjan> tswett: i don't recall ever needing that.
18:23:04 <oerjan> it might be a shortcut, though.
18:23:26 <oerjan> some puzzles have an option to turn off uniqueness, maybe that does.
18:23:59 <oerjan> admittedly map isn't one of my favorites so i usually don't play it that long
18:24:08 <tswett> Theoretically, it's never needed.
18:26:45 <Jafet> .oO( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valiant-Vazirani_theorem )
18:28:11 <Taneb> Where did this .oO( ) thing come from
18:28:31 <oerjan> i think int-e is the main perpetrator
18:30:28 * oerjan seems to have forgotten the tricks to doing map puzzles again
18:35:56 <tswett> "Place a tent next to each tree." Well, that sounds easy.
18:36:58 <Jafet> ₒ∘°˚ᴼ(would you prefer this?)
18:38:06 <shachaf> I think it means rougly the same as I,I
18:38:37 <Taneb> Jafet, I am just confused by its sudden appearance a few weeks ago
18:40:31 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
19:03:26 <Jafet> According to my logs, it's been around for longer. I can't find a line where int-e uses it, though.
19:09:29 <oerjan> Jafet: try with extra spaces
19:10:10 <Jafet> Ah, that nails the perp.
19:10:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43248&oldid=43109 * Jabutosama * (+242) /* Ideas for Names */
19:12:07 <tswett> Hey, how is the score of a program on EgoBot's bfjoust hill determined?
19:12:24 <tswett> It's not obvious how "score" and "points" are related.
19:18:31 <tswett> !bfjoust stupid_bad (>[>>>>[+]])*40000
19:18:33 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_stupid_bad: 4.7
19:19:38 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
19:19:41 <zemhill__> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
19:19:41 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:19:53 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
19:20:10 <oerjan> hmph there might not be any obvious pointer to information
19:20:24 <oerjan> it's presumably on a github somewhere.
19:21:03 <oerjan> fukyorbrane or something like that
19:21:21 <oerjan> brainfuck derived game
19:22:29 <oerjan> tswett: from what i recall EgoBot's point -> score updating isn't stateless, unlike zemhill's.
19:23:02 <oerjan> i.e. scores are adjusted from the points somehow, but based on the already existing scores.
19:23:22 <oerjan> and in a way such that submission order matters.
19:23:49 <oerjan> (i think the adjustment is linear or something similarly simple.)
19:24:51 <oerjan> zemhill, meanwhile, uses a matrix eigenvector calculation that takes all hill pairing results into account simultaneously.
19:25:19 <myname> bfjoust is serious business
19:26:01 <oerjan> zemhill's implementation used to have a serious bug which fizzie may or may not have managed to fix, though.
19:26:16 <oerjan> (stemming from the matrix library used.)
19:26:55 <oerjan> myname: well the only people who manage to get on the hills these days are those who treat it as such.
19:28:11 <Jafet> Eigenvector scoring (aka PageRank) isn't that serious.
19:28:39 <myname> is being on the hill is a valid point on a cv?
19:29:05 <Jafet> I don't think you want staying on the hill to be part of your employment
19:29:13 <Jafet> Then again, who knows.
19:29:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43249&oldid=43248 * Jabutosama * (+81) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
19:30:08 <myname> not part of it, but i do think it's quite the achievement
19:30:14 <gamemanj> myname: Maybe if framed as "Defensive Programming"...
19:30:35 <tswett> !bfjoust best_program_imaginable (>+[[-.]])*40000
19:30:37 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_best_program_imaginable: 7.4
19:32:25 <Jafet> What if your jouster isn't defensive
19:32:37 <oerjan> !zjoust tswett_best_program_imaginable (>+[[-.]])*40000
19:32:59 <Jafet> (I guess a rusher can be described as "agile")
19:33:13 <oerjan> hm maybe zemhill is actually broken.
19:35:17 <tswett> Huh, ais523_growth2 and ais523_preparation are apparently really good.
19:35:59 <tswett> Wait, ais523_preparation beats *every* program besides ais523_growth2?
19:43:54 <oerjan> that's ais523 for you.
19:45:40 <gamemanj> Sounds like ais523 is good at bfjoust.
19:45:59 <tswett> But is ais523 good at figuring out how "AA/INI/ZZ/IVI/V" is notation for the trefoil knot?
19:46:31 <tswett> That is, after all, the only thing truly worth figuring out.
19:48:31 <tswett> Here, have some equations.
19:48:53 <gamemanj> "the only thing truly worth figuring out." is relative...
19:49:31 <tswett> A/N = A. N/Z = II. IA/NI = AI/IZ. AI/IV = I. Uh, what was that last one.
19:49:47 <tswett> Eh, the last one is clear enough.
19:49:56 <tswett> Then add associativity and identity and there you go.
19:50:02 <tswett> Oh, and the symmetric versions of those rules.
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19:50:54 <tswett> See, we already have enough here to prove that A/IAI/IVI/V = AA/VV.
19:51:03 <tswett> Ha ha, A/IAI/IVI/V. What a funny expression.
19:56:02 <oerjan> <tswett> Hmm. Is there a polynomial function in the ring of integers modulo 10, which takes on the value 1 at 0, and 0 at all other inputs? <-- i don't think so. because 10 = 2*5, you can quotient down to Z/2Z, so if it's odd at 0, it must be odd at all other even coordinates.
19:56:26 <HackEgo> morphism/A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
19:57:21 <myname> how many wisdoms containing the word "functor" are there?
19:57:48 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il functor wisdom | wc -l
19:59:29 <oerjan> `` rgrep -il categor wisdom | wc -l
19:59:42 <shachaf> `` egrep -ril '(is|are) just' wisdom | wc -l
20:00:12 <myname> i'd like a list of all of these
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20:05:38 <myname> i do like the idea of fyb
20:06:01 <Jafet> `` grep -Erwim1 '(is|are) just' wisdom | wc -l
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20:06:14 <shachaf> is that a ruder version of syb twh
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20:07:54 <Jafet> Sounds like a useful language already
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20:11:51 <oerjan> <Taneb> I don't think sin is well-defined in Z/10Z <-- you'd want to use group characters instead.
20:12:04 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't know characters!
20:12:11 <Taneb> (I will by Christmas, hopefully)
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20:13:15 <oerjan> `learn A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
20:13:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'character': A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
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20:37:49 <oren2> damn I should have logged out at home before I came up here
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20:47:45 <b_jonas> Where the heck is that story I remember? I can never find anything in this book. I should try to understand it more, but it's difficult.
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21:06:10 <int-e> @tell oerjan Indeed, I've disabled @seen because I suspect it of leaking memory.
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21:14:00 <int-e> . o O ( So Taneb doesn't like my way of thinking?! Pity... )
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22:37:22 <newsham> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
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