00:00:42 <zzo38> DLE = Data Link Escape; Cause the following octets to be interpreted as raw data, not as control codes or graphic characters. Returning to normal usage would be implementation dependent.
00:06:12 <zzo38> Soon the government is going to use preloaded HSTS to spy on people.
00:08:28 <pikhq> So DLE escapes the next octet.
00:08:49 <pikhq> Has the especially nice property that your control codes are essentially unused.
00:09:53 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that's much of the reasoning too, that I have.
00:10:12 <pikhq> While ESC isn't used *much*, it at least is used *at all*.
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00:40:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kingofthenerdz3]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43223 * Kingofthenerdz3 * (+16) Created page with "Nothing for now."
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01:30:50 <zzo38> Do you think this is OK designing project management system? http://sprunge.us/OZPW
01:31:48 <coppro> what is the purpose of the dummy?
01:32:36 <zzo38> To force SQLite to create a SHARED lock on the database. Normally, locks are deferred; you can create an immediate lock on the database but this is only for writing, not possible for reading.
01:33:09 <coppro> I've thought about similar stuff for postgres
01:33:28 <coppro> the combination of linear and nonlinear permissions seems strange
01:33:41 <coppro> especially because the version permissions are in increments of 50
01:44:47 <zzo38> That's just in case other stuff needs to be added later on, although I could use bits instead I suppose
01:59:18 <coppro> zzo38: why use Julian dates rather than Unix timestamps?
02:02:48 <oren> maybe the thing is 32 bits?
02:35:47 <zzo38> coppro: SQLite uses Julian dates normally, that's why
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02:51:12 <zzo38> What is the duration of the sun minus the hyposinute multiplied by the square root of a circle without any area plus the meaning of life minus 31?
03:28:37 <zzo38> That is a title of one Hero Heart puzzle I made. Other titles are "Painting the roses^Whearts red", "SUPERMAN IS DEAD Heartland!", "I do not like this word 'bomb'", "Let's throw grenades at each other!", "What Happens When You Have Too Much Money", "Generating solutions of Einstein's field equations by typing mistakes", "Oops! How are you supposed to play Hero Hearts if the hearts are upside-down?", etc.
03:39:32 <zzo38> The puzzles themself are strange too; in one puzzle it is necessary to throw a grenade at an empty field, in another it is necessary to throw a grenade into the water (resulting in a message "That was a waste of a good grenade! Who taught you how to throw a grenade?"), in another level it is necessary to hit a heart with a missile (resulting in a message "Now that you have so smartly blown up that heart, it is impossible to solve this level. Sorry!"
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03:42:05 <zzo38> The messages themself are important in this case; if the rules of the game were modified to supporess these messages then the level would be impossible to solve.
03:42:41 <zzo38> When you do Magic: the Gathering, we also have to do stuff even more strange than that!
03:44:21 <zzo38> Do you like to make up any Magic: the Puzzling, please?
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04:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43224 * Kingofthenerdz3 * (+1701) Created page with "Ye Olde Alchemist is a esolang by [[User:Kingofthenerdz3]].It is still an idea in development.Programs are are ancient alchemical recipes.It is influenced by Chef. ==How it ..."
04:38:43 <zzo38> Is there any way to disable HSTS in clients that support it other than editing the executable file to change the name of the header into one that isn't a header name it is actually capable of receiving?
04:39:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Kingofthenerdz3 * moved [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] to [[Esolang:Ye Olde Alchemist]]
04:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Kingofthenerdz3 * moved [[Esolang:Ye Olde Alchemist]] to [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] over redirect
04:39:51 <zzo38> There are several problems with HSTS, including privacy issues.
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04:57:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, any more detail?
04:58:20 <Sgeo> Well, I get the point about the privacy issue I think
04:58:46 <Sgeo> Can make arbitrary domains that you set HSTS or not on and that stores a bit per domain, right?
04:58:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is a part of it
04:59:30 <zzo38> But you can also use the expiry times to do stuff
05:00:08 <zzo38> It also prevents you from manually overriding, from defining your own proxies that would intercept it, and other problems
05:00:19 <zzo38> HSTS is just a bad design in general.
05:23:15 <zzo38> A lot of people know neither good security nor good software design. Some hotels have elevators that you need a keycard, in order to prevent thieves from coming in, but the actual effect is the opposite; they can come in just fine if someone else is in, or use the stairs, or steal someone's keycard and find their room much more easily than if the elevator did not require a keycard.
05:26:46 <zzo38> Web-browser software is also, just way too complicated to be any good.
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05:43:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: agreed, DLE (= control-P) makes more sense to escape the next char, it's already used as such in some cases
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05:44:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I know that some programs use that already
06:06:37 <Sgeo> I think locally installed certificates can override HSTS
06:07:13 <Sgeo> If not, at least Chrome lets you delete HSTS entries
06:07:31 <zzo38> I saw that, but it says you can't delete preloaded entries
06:08:40 <Sgeo> At work tomorrow I might try intercepting Google with Charles and see what happens
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06:08:47 <Sgeo> Don't have Charles on this machine
06:09:02 <zzo38> You also can't disable it, either for certain domains or for everything. Better would be in a kind of about:config stuff you can specify the default HSTS mode (force on, force off, use headers, try insecure), and for each domain you can also define the HSTS modes.
06:09:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: but the problem here is not the HSTS, it's that the https is enforced on server side
06:09:53 <Sgeo> b_jonas, in a sane world, sure
06:09:54 <b_jonas> with apparently no specific way to overrid it
06:09:55 <zzo38> Yes, for Wikipedia and other things there is that too, but HSTS can still cause problems too whether or not that is the case.
06:10:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, it might cause problems in other cases
06:10:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: so I understand why you say it's bad design, but why can't you still access wikipedia with https?
06:11:04 <zzo38> I can, sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't work though.
06:11:21 <b_jonas> I thought you'd say something more specific
06:11:48 <zzo38> Even for servers that only work on HTTPS, the HSTS can still stop certain other things you might want to do for debugging or anything else, from working too.
06:12:43 <zzo38> Also the forced HTTPS prevents me from doing packet inspection or connecting from a client that doesn't use HTTPS.
06:13:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you use a local (private) proxy then?
06:14:19 <zzo38> I don't even know how to configure Mozilla to use plain HTTP on a proxy when https:// is specified.
06:14:47 <zzo38> But another reason I cannot use a local proxy is due to the mixed up clock; even if I try to fix it, it gets mixed up.
06:15:23 <b_jonas> I see https, but what's "mixed up clock"?
06:15:23 <zzo38> And my computer isn't particularly powerful enough either.
06:15:55 <zzo38> I mean the RTC in my computer seems to run too slowly.
06:15:57 <b_jonas> it needn't be on exactly the same computer, it could be on another computer on the lan with fast connection between the two
06:16:23 <b_jonas> um, but how is the clock a problem here?
06:16:47 <zzo38> I don't really know if the clock is a problem. But I thought it might be.
06:17:44 <b_jonas> my rtc clock usually runs a bit too fast, but it's not really a problem because I can correct it to enough precision by syncing to a time server on the internet
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06:19:24 <zzo38> I have several clocks, and synchronize them with the Weather Channel when they need to be set. I set the portable analog clock from the TV, the digital clock in my bedroom from the analog clock, and the computer from the digital clock.
06:20:06 <b_jonas> it's more a problem at the company, where the servers have the clocks going horribly wrong, sometimes several minutes off, and I don't have the authority to set their clocks to sync
06:20:39 <b_jonas> I used to sync to the radio in old times, but these days I sync to the internet
06:21:03 <b_jonas> (and then sync other clocks to the computer synced to the internet)
06:21:16 <b_jonas> (sometimes two levels deep)
06:21:26 <zzo38> I think there is a time signal on CBC radio, but I have no computer hardware to connect to radio or software to decode the time signal.
06:22:10 <b_jonas> I didn't decode by hardware, I just pressed enter at the beep or something
06:22:55 <zzo38> That is another way yes, slightly less precise but probably still good enough
06:23:20 <b_jonas> syncing to television doesn't sound like a good idea, because it sometimes has a second or two of delay, probably because it goes through satellite links
06:24:07 <zzo38> Yes, although the radio doesn't have the time signal all the time
06:24:22 <b_jonas> but it has it at predictable times
06:24:32 <zzo38> Yes, there is that, at least.
06:25:53 <zzo38> But also with television, the delay will be more with digital television than with analog, even. (I have both digital and analog, in different rooms. I tend to use the analog more, but other people in here mostly use the digital television.)
06:26:58 <b_jonas> I've seen a second of delay in analog, though probably some intermediate link was already digital
06:27:36 <b_jonas> and perhaps the time signal doesn't have that, only some programs that have to show live image
06:28:47 <b_jonas> I don't think we have analog television anymore. analog tv on radio waves has been discontinued a few years ago, and I don't think any of the cable ones are analog still.
06:29:15 <b_jonas> the satelite-based receivers are probably digital too
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06:30:23 <zzo38> A problem with a digital cable box is that you have to use their software and remote control (or a remote control with the same codes, but you can't add your own functions or remove existing functions). Also makes it difficult to use with a VCR.
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08:54:17 <HackEgo> CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:54:53 <Taneb> b_jonas, what are you trying to do
08:56:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: dunno, I just didn't understand why it didn't reply to `? ^
08:56:16 <HackEgo> bash: 0: command not found
08:56:25 <HackEgo> bash: 0: command not found
08:56:30 <Taneb> That is an odd error
08:57:02 <b_jonas> and the first file it finds with a matching name is 0
08:57:15 <Taneb> I did not know that
08:58:03 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
08:59:04 <HackEgo> 0 113500 :-( :-D Complaints MaFV Wierd a.o a.out bdsmreclist bin blah canary cat dc dog emoticons error.log etc factor faith fu head hello hello.c hi hours ibin index.html?dl=1812 interps le lib paste pref prefs py.py quines quotes random_elliott real script.py selflink share src twolines wisdom wisdom.pdf
08:59:28 <zzo38> I also fixed it so that you can use ``` to set the locale to the C locale, as a shortcut for that
09:00:04 <zzo38> Instead of having to type LC_COLLATE=C and whatever
09:01:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I usually run everything with a mixed locale: LC_CTYPE is set but every other category is C locale. this has even triggered a nasty libc bug that comes up only for mixed locale, but that was lots of years ago and fixed since.
09:02:45 <b_jonas> ideally I wish there was an environment variable to define the encoding of the terminal, without involving locales, but LC_CTYPE is a workaround that works in most of the cases. (I also wish terminal libraries accepted a _list_ of terminfo terminal names instead of just one.)
09:06:31 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
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09:06:43 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; bash -c "$1"
09:07:27 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
09:09:22 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i 's/;.*1"/; exec bash -c "$@"/' 'bin/``' # doesn't matter much, but can't hurt
09:09:32 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
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10:50:23 <b_jonas> oh! "libpq" is the database client library of PostgreSQL, right?
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13:36:15 <tswett> Neural net link of the day:
13:36:16 <tswett> http://www.youtube.com/u/182786/07/02/bin/oerjan/particular-lower-documentation-example
13:42:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/oerjan: line 1: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:
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14:40:50 * Taneb really needs to learn Java
14:53:37 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; exec bash -c "$@"
14:53:43 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
15:00:04 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:00:49 <tswett> `` ln -s selflink bin/selflink
15:01:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: selflink: not found
15:01:10 <HackEgo> bash: bin/selflink: Too many levels of symbolic links
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16:27:40 <oren> I am now the proud owner of a framed paper, with "Oren Isaac Watson" in a cursive font, and "Honours Bachelor of Science with Distinction" in an uncial font.
16:28:27 <Taneb> oren, where is your alma mater?
16:28:52 <oren> University of Toronto
16:29:50 <Taneb> That's dangerously close to a university which almost shares its name with my university!
16:30:20 <oren> oh, right, York University. My dad works there
16:31:02 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm at University of York
16:31:09 <Taneb> Congrats, by the way :)
16:31:16 <Taneb> Thinking of doing a master's?
16:31:30 <oren> Not right away
16:32:38 <oren> However I do plan to the the JLPT 3 this winter
16:33:46 <pikhq> Japanese Language Proficiency Test.
16:34:05 <oren> there are 5 levels with 1 the highest
16:34:18 <Taneb> So, you start at -4?
16:34:42 <FreeFull> I'm at the University of Reading
16:34:50 <tswett> Insert "reading" pun here.
16:34:53 <pikhq> Serious question: should I accept this Google job offer?
16:35:11 <FreeFull> I'd much rather work for Mozilla than Google
16:35:27 <Taneb> FreeFull, one of my almost-friends from high school is at Reading!
16:35:32 <tswett> pikhq: well, is there a reason you wouldn't accept it?
16:35:46 <FreeFull> I've read Google's interview process is annoying
16:35:49 <Taneb> Wow, he is studying computer science!
16:35:50 <oren> then accept it.
16:36:13 <Taneb> FreeFull, unsure, either first or second
16:36:18 <Taneb> Chris "Easty" Eastwood
16:36:19 <pikhq> FreeFull: It is, but I'm on the other side of it.
16:37:40 <Taneb> pikhq, what would you be doing?
16:37:46 <FreeFull> Taneb: I don't recognise the name
16:37:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: try to find people you know who already work at Google. ask them what it's like.
16:37:50 <pikhq> Site reliability engineering.
16:38:02 <pikhq> The question was not actually serious.
16:38:09 <pikhq> And I already hit accept.
16:38:25 <Taneb> FreeFull, fair enough :)
16:38:50 <b_jonas> but you said... ok, good luck
16:39:14 <FreeFull> Taneb: Maybe if I saw a photo I could recognise him, but no guarantees
16:39:24 <pikhq> b_jonas: Was a joke.
16:41:20 <oren> pikhq: are you going to work in California or at a local site
16:41:31 <Taneb> FreeFull, PM'd you a photo
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17:29:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Do you know what you'll be SREing?
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18:07:18 <tswett> Ignoring the timestamps, this bit of autogenerated log seems pretty plausible:
18:07:26 <tswett> 07:52:41: <oerjan> wait, you can still control iteration in the discarded argument
18:07:27 <tswett> 00:13:13: <oerjan> darn
18:07:27 <tswett> 04:21:49: <oerjan> right
18:13:04 <tswett> Taneb: no, you start at -3.
18:22:36 <shachaf> You've already accepted it?
18:25:03 <pikhq> Uh, probably some time in the next couple weeks.
18:25:23 <pikhq> I talk with relocation people on Monday.
18:28:28 <int-e> Oh wow, Carlsen lost again.
18:29:01 <pikhq> I am gonna set up an appointment with an optometrist like, on my start date...
18:29:14 <coppro> pikhq: i.e. after the insurance kicks in?
18:29:25 <pikhq> I'm *pretty* sure my prescription is a bit off these days.
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18:40:08 <shachaf> http://andrej.com/fan.html
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19:14:38 <HackEgo> eurovision/Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing.
19:14:43 <HackEgo> cls/cls is a command to clear the screen.
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19:17:37 <b_jonas> that's why it's riddiculous
19:17:51 <int-e> is the typo intentional?
19:18:20 <b_jonas> there's barely any reliable historical data, but the historians make all kinds of crazy specific hypothesis from the very little data they can find
19:18:30 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I just can't spell
19:18:37 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, riddleculous )
19:19:43 <b_jonas> I can't pronounce either. if I could, "riddiculous" wouldn't make sense as the spelling
19:19:45 <int-e> of course that pun would've worked better if the answer had been "yes".
19:20:09 <b_jonas> apparently it's stressed on the second syllable
19:24:04 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah but no, not because of that
19:24:49 <b_jonas> first syllable is just my default assumption of basically every word because Hungarian has fixed stress on first syllable and I don't know enough about English pronunciation to have good guesses about stress
19:28:31 <oren> hmm... In English stress can actually make it a different word
19:28:54 <b_jonas> much rarely than just plain homonyms that are stressed the same too
19:29:02 <b_jonas> s/much rarely/much more rarely/
19:30:12 <oren> Also the word "defence" can be stressed either way
19:32:26 <HackEgo> york/York used to be known as Amsterdam.
19:33:11 <oren> And then there are various words, where the shift turns a verb into a noun
19:33:46 <oren> reCORD - verb REcord - noun
19:34:17 <oren> the two words are otherwise identical in pronounciation
19:34:56 <HackEgo> chuchichäschtli/chuchichäschtli is spoken as [ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli]
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19:49:15 <b_jonas> oren: yeah, that's a quite famous example: "table", "record", "rebel" and a few other words change their hyphenation depending on their meaning, so they can't be automatically hyphenated
19:50:28 <b_jonas> I don't think Hungarian has any word that can change hyphenation, though in theory such a word could exist. That doesn't mean we have perfect hyphenation algorithms of course, because there are words it just doesn't know.
19:51:01 <b_jonas> Of course, the Hungarian hyphenation rules are very simple. There's about four rules total.
19:51:17 <b_jonas> Maybe five or something. depends on how you count.
19:55:18 <shachaf> The shachaf hyphenation rule is that when you run out of space in the line and you're in the middle of a word, you write a hyphen.
19:55:50 <b_jonas> Hmm, maybe there is such a word. There are four possible ambiguities I can think of that could result in such a word, though two seem very unlikely to actually cause an example.
19:56:52 <HackEgo> famicom/Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
19:57:28 <int-e> shouldn't it be famikomu then...
19:57:34 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought Famicom was another name for the Nintendo Entertainment System.
19:58:15 <HackEgo> chess/Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
19:58:40 <shachaf> Oh, it sounds like I'm wrong.
20:01:31 <shachaf> Oh, it sounds like I'm wrong about being wrong.
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20:19:25 <rdococ> imagine a negative currency... &3 = -$3
20:20:22 <fowl> We could use negadollars to balance out inflation?
20:22:15 <rdococ> hmm... I wonder if that would work
20:22:53 <rdococ> because if both dollars and minus dollars become common, then.. would that balance out inflation ...?
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20:23:12 <rdococ> also, cant you just throw away a negadollar...?
20:23:43 <rdococ> "omg I have this -$10000 note... I'll just burn it."
20:24:25 <int-e> you'll throw the monetary system off balance
20:24:36 <int-e> so nothing to worry about
20:24:42 <fowl> Hmm yea I'm not an economizer
20:24:49 <fowl> Chaos should be the goal tho
20:30:29 <zzo38> shachaf: The Nintendo Entertainment System is a system which is very similar to Famicom (most programs for one will work also on the other with an adapter)
20:31:17 <pikhq> It's somewhat more easy to run NES games on a Famicom than vice versa.
20:32:17 <pikhq> The most notable likely issue is that some NES games will not read any controllers on the expansion port.
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20:39:48 <oren> wait, what if the negadollar was a cryptographically irrepudiatable?
20:41:12 <HackEgo> unicode/Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
20:41:28 <oren> e.g. it would be possible, using public information, to prove exactly how many negadollars someone has
20:41:44 <HackEgo> pdf/PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
20:42:49 <HackEgo> `/` is the prefix to greatness.
20:42:57 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
20:43:31 <oren> thus, when I pay you, I can do so by transferring a negadollar from yourself to me; such that there is a public record that you have N less negadollars and I have N more
20:45:16 <shachaf> pikhq: You're moving from Indiana or someplace like that?
20:46:28 <oren> To encourage trade, the public record would increase by a continuously compounded say 2% per year
20:46:38 <pikhq> It's definitely a cross-country move.
20:46:43 <pikhq> And I'm not packed yet?
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20:50:11 <oren> (this is similar to the inflation of normal currencies, but it is more obvious)
20:50:23 <fowl> Hey I'm in misery, can you take me with you?
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20:58:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdome: not found
20:59:01 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
20:59:09 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:00:21 <J_Arcane> http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/39wvrm/hodor_esolang_as_a_rust_macro/
21:01:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43229&oldid=43217 * 139.55.4.74 * (+14) Added Damarok
21:02:32 <rdococ> it just makes more moral sense if you use negative currency & as opposed to positive currency £ and $ and euro and stuff... having &3 means "you owe $3 to the world, until you can reach financial enlightenment." but having $3 means "the world owes you $3...? wait.. what?"
21:05:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43230 * Hppavilion1 * (+128) /* Well SORRY */ new section
21:06:46 <tswett> rdococ: I think theoretically, US dollars are a zero currency.
21:07:00 <tswett> It's impossible for anyone to actually own a US dollar. Therefore, the total number of US dollars in the world is zero.
21:07:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43231&oldid=43230 * Hppavilion1 * (+271) /* Well SORRY */
21:07:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43232&oldid=43231 * Hppavilion1 * (+13)
21:07:36 <tswett> If I have a dollar bill, that doesn't mean I own a dollar. It means that the Fed owes me a dollar. The dollar bill is worth $1 to me, and -$1 to the Fed.
21:07:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43233&oldid=43232 * Hppavilion1 * (-14)
21:07:52 <tswett> Likewise, if I have a dollar in my bank account, that doesn't mean I own a dollar; it means the bank owes me a dollar.
21:09:04 <zzo38> I think it has even been suggested that <BAL|FSV> = 0 can suggest this (when applied globally), although I have not thought of it that way
21:09:45 <tswett> The product of <BAL| and |FSB>, hth?
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21:10:10 <zzo38> The |FSV> is a financial state vector, which can vary, but must always remain orthogonal to <BAL| which is fixed
21:10:12 <shachaf> Presumably it's the inner product of BAL and FSV or something.
21:10:59 <rdococ> "Likewise, if I have a dollar in my bank account, that doesn't mean I own a dollar; it means the bank owes me a dollar." so why can't the bank just hold a negadollar?
21:11:41 <zzo38> It is short for "balance" and normally you might set the components for each account to 1 and others to 0 if using that basis state; but you could use other basis vectors instead if it helps, all that it is is that |FSV> is required to remain orthogonal to it.
21:11:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: That's what it is.
21:11:59 <b_jonas> what if money is locally conserved everywhere, but you can't define a globally sum of money invariant, sort of like energy in global relativity?
21:12:39 <zzo38> rdococ: Can't the bank already potentially store negative amounts in an account?
21:12:44 <b_jonas> as in, money isn't created or destroyed locally anywhere, but you can't just say that the totaly some of money is conserved in any meaningful sense
21:12:47 <zzo38> (If you are in debt)
21:13:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure it can, though that might be Bad for you
21:13:42 <zzo38> Yes, I know, you are in debt
21:14:57 <shachaf> Do you remember the Infocom game _Bureaucracy_?
21:15:02 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not you can define a globally sum of money invariant; I am not the government (and perhaps even the government doesn't know?)
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21:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43234&oldid=43220 * Hppavilion1 * (+712) Added some code
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21:18:54 <rdococ> but negative currency is more moral: if you have no $$$, nothing to sell and stuff, you can't start in life... but if you have no &&& in negative world, nothing to sell and stuff, you can start in life by buying stuff, and pay the world back later.
21:20:15 <zzo38> Note that |FSV> here is a vector of a projective space, it seems to me!
21:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43235&oldid=43234 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Added extension
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21:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43236&oldid=43235 * Hppavilion1 * (+49) Changed code
21:24:33 <zzo38> hppavilion1: I don't know much right now, but I can see a few thing from what you have written
21:25:13 <zzo38> It is still hardly good enough yet, just one example that explain a few thing about it
21:25:49 <hppavilion1> I'm making it incrementally instead of all at once
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21:26:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43237&oldid=43236 * Hppavilion1 * (+122) Opened the language to public modification
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21:28:27 <rdococ> but wont the metaphors and mythologies themselves require verbs or verb like constructions?
21:29:57 <hppavilion1> The Metaphors and Mythologies can be defined in Darmok or another language
21:30:07 <hppavilion1> It's not a particuarly well-defined language
21:30:27 <hppavilion1> Ones defined in Darmok pretty much need to use ones defined in Non-Darmok
21:31:28 <rdococ> but what if they didnt...?
21:31:49 <rdococ> if we use a modification of English where verbs are not allowed...
21:32:00 <rdococ> can we come up with a sentence?
21:32:41 <hppavilion1> Barring one-word sentences like "No," which don't even completely count as sentences
21:33:19 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure stuff affirming stuff like "you are wrong." don't have verbs per-say, but other verb-like constructions...?
21:34:01 <hppavilion1> I'm pretty much certain some parts of darmok will need to be defined in another language
21:34:24 <hppavilion1> If it's written in python, for example, it will run a lexer on the line and pattern-match it
21:34:27 <rdococ> just use adjectives...?
21:34:35 <b_jonas> rdococ: see also http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/13451/4918
21:34:42 <hppavilion1> The first pattern that matches corresponds to a python function
21:34:46 <rdococ> "loser you winner me" means "I get stuff from you!" or "you give stuff to me"
21:35:06 <rdococ> of course it's not an actual sentence per say, but it'll work
21:35:22 <rdococ> "loser you winner me" doesn't have any verbs in it.
21:36:08 <rdococ> like I could turn "you are wrong" into "wrong you"
21:37:12 <rdococ> "victim fred, thief samuel" for example
21:37:16 <hppavilion1> And these primitives will be used to define the official code you're allowed to use
21:38:24 <hppavilion1> So how would we define print in the TheBible/Jesus library?
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21:39:50 <hppavilion1> Now I'm stuck thinking about another language I'm designing
21:41:03 <rdococ> "loud 'Hello World!'" describing the string 'Hello World!' as loud...
21:41:38 <hppavilion1> It's the Purely Functional Imperative Language
21:41:55 <rdococ> hmm.. sounds interesting...wait... what...? this is...
21:42:02 <hppavilion1> It'd be a huge pain in the ass to implement
21:42:09 <rdococ> "functional imperative"????
21:42:38 <rdococ> oh... what paradigm would it be in?
21:42:49 <b_jonas> so the oath of Feanor wasn't public knowledge in middle-earth, and Galadriel could just choose to not tell about it to Melian and think she won't easily learn about it?
21:42:59 <hppavilion1> And that includes things like If statements and operators
21:43:03 <b_jonas> that's new to me. I should read the Silmarillon very carefully.
21:43:09 <b_jonas> because there's a lot I don't understand
21:43:11 <rdococ> thats just like my Table programming language though where everything is a table...
21:43:19 <b_jonas> how can something like that _not_ be public knowledge?
21:43:25 <rdococ> but Table, I think, if I remember correctly, was declarative
21:44:03 <rdococ> yeah.. and I don't think it was turing complete
21:45:06 <rdococ> show us... we're dieing to know
21:45:16 <oren> well I got the offer
21:45:52 <hppavilion1> https://github.com/TheGloriousRepublic/Purely-Functional-Imperative-Language/blob/master/doc/Lib/comp.pfil
21:46:32 <hppavilion1> So it'd be impossible to implement a language that's accept that library as-is
21:47:00 <rdococ> defining comparison operators... ha...! I could do that in haskell...
21:47:59 <rdococ> they look like they're all circularly defined to me - not that that's a problem of course
21:48:23 <hppavilion1> Some of the comparison operators had to be primitives for it to work, keep in mind
21:48:33 <hppavilion1> Unless there's a way I could do it without
21:48:41 <hppavilion1> In which case feel free to make a pull request
21:48:47 <rdococ> sorta maybe possibly but idk the language
21:49:10 <hppavilion1> You can define the equivalent of complex statements
21:49:51 <rdococ> how are numbers defined...? are they primitive too...?
21:49:54 <hppavilion1> It's something no other language I've ever used allowed
21:50:24 <hppavilion1> I just say functions because it's more accurate
21:50:25 <rdococ> numbers dont have to be primitive if youre willing to fudge around a little
21:50:55 <hppavilion1> This language is going to be a huge pain to implement if anyone ever decides to
21:51:04 <hppavilion1> It'll probably be done by PhD's if it ever is
21:51:11 <rdococ> in Haskell, you could define data Number = Zero | Succ number...
21:51:46 <rdococ> so 1 = succ(zero), 2 = succ(succ(zero))
21:52:34 <rdococ> and assuming you can do stuff like x.deccessor or decc(x) or something
21:53:10 <hppavilion1> If you were to make a library for this and pull request it that'd be AMAZING
21:53:18 <rdococ> function add(x, succ(y)) { return succ(add(x, y)) }
21:54:26 <rdococ> I wonder... you said they were technically classes...?
21:54:55 <hppavilion1> A number would be an instance of the number class. Metaphorically speaking
21:56:03 <rdococ> also, may I ask, is the if conditional a primitive?
21:56:22 <rdococ> you can forgo that too by modifying the boolean library
21:56:33 <rdococ> like Table was basically based on
21:56:48 <hppavilion1> I want this language to be as library-defined as possible
21:57:05 <rdococ> true.ifTrue(doStuff) would doStuff, false.ifTrue(doStuff) wouldn't...
21:57:44 <rdococ> so add the ifTrue functions to the boolean objects themselves, true.ifTrue would do whatever you give it, and false.ifTrue would be a NOP
21:58:54 <rdococ> well, you know objects have properties and methods, like account.desposit(123)?
21:59:34 <rdococ> false.ifTrue({ stuff }) is basically an object, false, with the method, ifTrue
22:00:14 <rdococ> so what would false() return anyway?
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22:00:42 <rdococ> True() and False() are builtins? srsly?
22:01:20 <hppavilion1> I was just going on the thought that they had to be
22:02:03 <rdococ> are there any objects with properties and methods? or is it literally all just functions?
22:02:26 <hppavilion1> Well the functions are technically callable objects
22:02:37 <hppavilion1> I'm building off of all the best languages I know of
22:02:53 <hppavilion1> Haskell, Python, the two good things in Javascript, etc.
22:03:22 <rdococ> do the objects have properties...?
22:03:31 <zzo38> Did you consider Forth and Lisp?
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22:03:41 <rdococ> like, how an account has a balance? or a person has an age?
22:04:19 <rdococ> or... you could do this! true(doStuff) directly instead of invoking a property of true
22:04:34 <rdococ> so true could be an identity/call function and false would be a NOP
22:04:36 <zzo38> Do you know any SQL though?
22:05:08 <rdococ> function true(stuff) { return stuff() }; function false(stuff) { return };
22:05:10 <hppavilion1> I've written a little, but I barely understand it
22:05:19 <hppavilion1> Keep in mind I use javascript function notation
22:05:37 <rdococ> ik... I'm using pseudo code at the moment. should I fork the project?
22:06:07 <zzo38> In JavaScript you can also make anonymous functions too, and overridable prototypes and generator functions and others
22:06:11 <hppavilion1> So then call foo if x is greater than five you would do "x>5(foo);" ?
22:06:55 <rdococ> if(true, stuff) = alias(true(stuff))
22:07:11 <zzo38> I think the syntax in JavaScript is too long though, and suggested stuff like @(x)(x) for the identity function
22:08:42 <hppavilion1> Wait, was that a suggestion you made regarding JS or was that a suggestion for me?
22:09:50 <hppavilion1> I'm trying to figure out what the syntax should be for denoting blocks of code to be used within functions
22:10:15 <rdococ> I'm trying to figure out how alias stuff works.
22:10:18 <hppavilion1> It can't be x = function(vars){code} because the {code} block would be interpreted as the definition
22:10:42 <zzo38> I do not quite understand what you are trying to do now?
22:10:57 <zzo38> What did you mea nabout "denoting blocks of code to be used within functions"?
22:11:13 <hppavilion1> PFIL allows you to define functions with code as an argument
22:11:32 <hppavilion1> SO a for loop could be defined in a library using while loops and incrementation, for example
22:11:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion1: like smalltalk or ruby?
22:11:50 <zzo38> O, well, I would still just make the contents of the loop body also as a function
22:12:41 <zzo38> Or else, use macros instead.
22:13:20 <b_jonas> hppavilion1: yes, that's a basic feature of smalltalk, and ruby has inherited it, though only with up to one block argument per call
22:14:32 <b_jonas> I don't know how it implements it
22:14:39 <b_jonas> that's… an implementation detail
22:17:20 <b_jonas> I know the _syntax_ in ruby. Or at least most of it. Are you asking about that?
22:17:44 <b_jonas> it's complicated, there's like ten syntax elements related to it
22:17:58 <b_jonas> so if you want me to explain most of it, you can ask
22:18:06 <b_jonas> I can't help with smalltalk though
22:18:10 <rdococ> the true and false method stuff I talked about is implemented into Smalltalk, but I think it bypasses that logic code straight to the compiler
22:18:32 <b_jonas> rdococ: sure, it makes sense to optimize booleans
22:19:07 <b_jonas> conditionals occur a lot, so doing an extra function call for each of them could be bad
22:19:18 <b_jonas> in a practical interpreter that is
22:20:12 <rdococ> but the method stuff is still in Smalltalk source code anyway
22:20:33 <hppavilion1> So the operators that can be used in function arguments are *(splat), **(double splat), & (code block), and maybe others
22:20:34 <b_jonas> sure, useful for lots of other functions, such as for iterating over some containers
22:21:31 <b_jonas> some details of smalltalk and ruby seem really esoteric to me actually
22:21:39 <b_jonas> probably only because I'm not used to them
22:21:52 <b_jonas> they might be natural for someone who's grown up on those languages
22:23:48 <hppavilion1> The order than you can put arguments into a function is foo(requiredargs..., optionalargs..., *listargs, **kwargs, &blockargs)
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22:25:35 <rdococ> my method of implementing gt requires equality... shoud that be primitive ...?
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22:26:03 <rdococ> equality seems more primitive than gt or lt...
22:26:14 <hppavilion1> I think I just made a travelling salesman problem for you
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22:31:06 <rdococ> it has to be logically consistent
22:31:15 <hppavilion1> I mean are you working on something that you'll pull request to me
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22:31:31 <hppavilion1> That's probably the worst way I could've phrased that :P
22:32:33 <rdococ> god damn it... my internet glitched and now I have to remake the changes I made in comp.pfil...
22:35:47 <rdococ> but there werent many so
22:36:35 <rdococ> ok I've made some changes. I'll keep making changes until I can remove another primitive...
22:37:04 <hppavilion1> You can push what you've done for now if it's consistent
22:37:21 <hppavilion1> And I'll just accept it and you can add the next bout right after I do it
22:37:35 <hppavilion1> I mostly just want to feel the march of progress :P
22:37:37 <rdococ> ok... let me check through to make sure
22:39:56 <rdococ> okay... you can check it too... tell me about anything youre unsure of
22:43:21 <rdococ> ignore the silly commit comment stuff... had to change addition and subtraction but it's fine now
22:45:09 <hppavilion1> I edited some stuff before I sent you the link to the repo
22:46:57 <rdococ> I'm just thinking, imagine if there was a way to substitute the function() and return() primitives for something that isn't... also, about set()...
22:48:01 <rdococ> function return(function, parameters, returnValue) { function(parameters) = returnValue }
22:48:10 <rdococ> if that even makes sense
22:49:06 <rdococ> if you get it... I'm setting the function value to stuff...
22:49:41 <rdococ> what did you change btw?
22:56:00 <hppavilion1> But I think I lost some progress on the docs
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22:58:47 <oren> *Din* *Din* 7 o clock and all's well
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22:59:12 <hppavilion1> (Just refreshed the page, hopefully didn't miss anything)
22:59:35 <oren> I don;t think so
23:00:34 <oren> Also you can read the logs for stuff you missed, unless you're like me and just keep Irssi running for weeks
23:01:04 <oren> then you can simply scroll up
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23:02:20 <oren> I started Irssi on June 1 and haven't signed off since
23:02:21 <rdococ> I'm going to fork it again...
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23:02:41 <zzo38> I don't know what does on the WebChat; I use my own IRC client because I don't like the others
23:03:19 <zzo38> Some webpages don't even link to the actual IRC and only to a webpage to chat on IRC; sometimes I have to view the source to figure out the proper address to connect to with my own IRC client.
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23:04:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cls: not found
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23:08:27 <rdococ> how could I implement function() so its not a primitive?
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23:10:44 <nys> first class macros?
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23:17:57 <rdococ> well I've been able to implement return()
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23:19:43 <rdococ> the return() stuff looks like a forked version of my unmerged code stuff and stuff
23:19:53 <rdococ> how do I delete my fork?
23:22:31 <hppavilion1> I think table could actually be useful for something
23:23:00 <hppavilion1> It's a language so esoteric it stops being just for fun and becomes a fully legit, useful lang
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23:25:29 <rdococ> its so esoteric, it's not esoteric anymore...
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23:25:47 <rdococ> but thats still cool and esoteric...
23:26:31 <hppavilion1> from ast import literal_eval def lex(script): return literal_eval('{'+script.replace('[', '{').replace(']', '}'))
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23:29:54 <rdococ> but I dont think table is turing complete
23:30:18 <rdococ> assuming lazy evaluation, table is at best, a finite state automaton... unless someone can disprove that...
23:30:33 <hppavilion1> I'll make it turing complete with modification to the standard
23:30:43 <rdococ> make Table turing complete?
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23:31:15 <rdococ> everything is possible
23:31:53 <rdococ> well, except for solving the halting problem
23:32:04 <rdococ> (which I think I can...)
23:32:08 <hppavilion1> Anything possible is possible if you're turing complete
23:32:40 <hppavilion1> >>> lex("{'walrus': {'man': 'person'}}") returns {'walrus': {'man': 'person'}}
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23:33:24 <rdococ> you know... I think I could solve the halting problem... convert the program into pseudo code and use some kind of machine to tell whether there are loops and stuff or not
23:33:50 <rdococ> while (true) { do stuff } obviously doesnt halt
23:34:00 <zzo38> It won't always work though, but you can sometimes figure out that it doesn't halt
23:34:31 <rdococ> it works for some programs
23:34:43 <hppavilion1> So naturally, I'm going to suggest a change for table instead of fixing it in my program :P
23:35:45 <hppavilion1> Instead of just a raw library name being used for import (which makes it not technically a table), make it do somthing like map "libraries" to a list of tables to use
23:36:19 <hppavilion1> Or even better, to make the list of libraries a table too
23:36:29 <hppavilion1> Make it a map mapping library names to booleans
23:39:06 <rdococ> instead of assigning properties to values...
23:39:13 <rdococ> just do sets of flags, like
23:39:42 <rdococ> 3 = [successor of 2, predeccessor of 4, derp, herp]
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23:51:22 <rdococ> I had an idea just like pfil once
23:51:28 <rdococ> where everything could be a function
23:56:27 <hppavilion1> Can I write an arithmetic library for Table and add it to the esolangs page?