00:00:54 <oerjan> plausible, but needs a proof
00:01:15 <shachaf> What if I give you a program and promise you that it implements a computable real?
00:01:15 <oerjan> possibly just some theorem i don't remember
00:01:56 <shachaf> I guess now my question is "what can you decide about the real", rather than "what can you decide about the program".
00:02:02 <shachaf> (And the answer is nothing, of course.)
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00:07:29 <FreeFull> Is the busy shachaf problem decidable?
00:07:56 <oerjan> shachaf is always busy, Q.E.D.
00:08:42 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
00:08:56 <shachaf> apparently i have some free time on weekends
00:10:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> I don't even know that the primitive recursive functions are what the type system encodes <-- note that if you have higher-order functions, things that look like primitive/structural recursion can be much more powerful. e.g. we discussed that the goodstein sequence can be computed in System F.
00:11:19 <oerjan> @tell ais523 (and someone i don't remember the nick of implemented it in non-recursive haskell)
00:11:34 <oerjan> quintopia: was it you twh
00:12:11 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a very busy cosplay hth
00:13:22 <shachaf> My life improved when I stopped writing commas after "e.g." and "i.e.".
00:13:38 <shachaf> "eg" and "ie"? Or is that going too far?
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00:18:35 <oerjan> their killing are bots
00:21:04 <oerjan> en:hth = nn:hth, en:N.B. = nb:N.B.
00:21:26 <oerjan> N.B. is latin, after all
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00:23:15 <oerjan> (håper det(te) hjelper)
00:23:36 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure of the ending of that last word
00:25:04 <oerjan> which means it's identicall in nb and nn, hth
00:26:03 <HackEgo> firefly/FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
00:26:21 <oerjan> nn could also be håpar
00:27:31 <oerjan> hm "vonar" would be more stereotypically nn
00:28:47 <oerjan> nn for poetry, nb for technical stuff vdh
00:29:53 <oerjan> unless, like i did, you come upon an early 20th century nn popular science treatise on angle trisection
00:30:11 <oerjan> that was really something
00:33:44 <shachaf> is poetry translated from nn to en better than poetry translated from nb to en
00:34:07 <oerjan> no idea, i don't particularly read poetry
00:34:31 <oerjan> and i'm not sure i've ever seen poetry translated from norwegian to english
00:38:33 <oerjan> ♫ du skal ikkje sova bort sumarnatta ♫ ho er for ljos til det... ♫
00:41:29 * oerjan had no idea that lyrics had a depressing backstory
00:41:41 <boily> we shall eek sofa bort Sumatra, oh err for loss till death?
00:41:53 <oerjan> death was involved, yes
00:41:55 <boily> (my ungoogled attempt at translating that thing.)
00:42:14 <oerjan> (although not _in_ the lyrics afair)
00:42:30 <shachaf> 17:26 <oerjan> (håper det(te) hjelper)
00:42:44 <shachaf> oerjan seems obsessed with death
00:42:44 <boily> what's a sofa bort, and why does it need to be from Sumatra?
00:43:00 <shachaf> given how often they talk about it
00:43:18 <oerjan> no:det,dette = en:the,that,this hth
00:44:21 <shachaf> surely you mean "no:det,dette vdh = en:the,that,this hth"
00:44:26 <oerjan> (the "the" usage is often elided)
00:44:47 <oerjan> shachaf: vdh is nn, not nb hth
00:45:12 <shachaf> which i assume is some sort of union
00:45:13 <boily> so, if I understand correctly, the lyrics mourn the loss of a Sumatran sofa bort?
00:45:36 <shachaf> perhaps sumarnatta is more like a summer night
00:45:39 <oerjan> shachaf: which could have been why i left out vdh
00:46:03 <shachaf> ikkje seems suspiciously dutch
00:46:07 <oerjan> shachaf: ♫ ding ding ding ♫
00:46:27 <oerjan> (well, _the_ summer night)
00:46:57 <boily> we shall little-Dutch-thing something something on the summer night, oh is for loss until that?
00:48:47 <oerjan> google translate is pretty bad, i see
00:49:54 <oerjan> well technically the words it fails worst at are those that are strictly nn
00:51:06 <oerjan> we shall not sleep away the summer night, it is too bright for that hth
00:52:10 <boily> so nn:for is en:far. tdh.
00:52:35 <boily> but what part is “not,” what's “sleep” and what's “away”?
00:52:42 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
00:52:50 <oerjan> ikkje, sova, bort, hth
00:53:25 <boily> so nn:for is en:for?
00:53:49 <oerjan> although technically it was nn:til in the above
00:54:23 <oerjan> nn:for = en:too, in this case
00:54:38 <boily> *facedesk* *facedesk* *facedesk*
00:54:54 <oerjan> they're both germanic languages, the word order isn't _that_ different.
00:56:27 * oerjan gives boily some headache pills
00:56:55 * boily accepts the pills with gratitude
00:57:26 <oerjan> norwegian prepositions are about as insane as english ones, and _not_ corresponding insanities, either
00:58:28 <boily> I'm still a proponent of a Japonorwegian merger. sane, immuable, logical particles instead of abhorrent prepositions.
00:58:55 <oerjan> are you implying that japanese is sane tdnh
00:59:08 <boily> shachaf: apart from a suspicious lack of vowels, are there any unmanageable grammatical points in Hebrew too?
00:59:15 <boily> oerjan: uuuuh... yes?
00:59:58 <oerjan> boily: i believe the main insanity of hebrew is that most of the grammar resides in the unwritten vowels hth
01:00:25 <oerjan> (this is shared with other semitic languages such as arabic)
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01:01:33 <oerjan> (although iirc not _all_ vowels are unwritten)
01:03:23 <boily> insane verb conjugations? insane irregularities? insane prepositions? insane grammatical numbers?
01:03:52 <oerjan> boily: have i previously mentioned that for geographical place names in norwegian, you need to learn individually whether the preposition corresponding to en:in is no:i or no:på hth
01:04:17 <boily> no you didn't. now you did. this is scaring my fungotless.
01:04:17 <fungot> boily: breaches of intermediate severity. while a sentence of this distribution, no distribution occurs.
01:04:39 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:04:43 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient, but thanks for supporting me.
01:04:43 <fungot> boily: ( b) a list of who owns land may only be changed except as
01:05:08 <shachaf> can fungot have a style based on the US Internal Revenue Code twh
01:05:08 <fungot> shachaf: iv) the political status of any legal significance, the notary shall declare the most
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01:11:01 <oerjan> boily: of course this is in addition to having to learn the gender of every noun, but as a french-speaker you're already used to that.
01:12:34 <shachaf> Doesn't Norwegian have that too?
01:12:44 <oerjan> shachaf: i was speaking about norwegian
01:12:57 <boily> the problem with already inherently knowing the gender of nouns, is that when you're learning another language with them there are plenty of jarring mishaps hth
01:13:05 <shachaf> Oh, I thought that was still about Hebrew.
01:13:19 <shachaf> But Norwegian has three genders, right?
01:13:24 <boily> it can still be about Hebrew. it has genders, right?
01:13:27 <oerjan> which reminds me that iirc, in hebrew, the word for answering machine is the masculine form of the word for secretary. very politically correct.
01:14:35 <shachaf> oerjan: have not encountered that
01:15:02 <boily> «un secrétaire» can be a kind of furniture, on top of it secretary meaning.
01:15:30 <boily> (whereas «une secrétaire» is always a woman whose job is being a secretary.)
01:15:45 <shachaf> on the other hand hebrew has all sorts of things
01:15:54 <shachaf> did you know the word for husband was the same as the word for owner
01:20:00 <oerjan> i also recall that in german, the way to be gender neutral about job titles is to use both forms with a slash. in norwegian we've mostly just decided to redefine job titles as being gender neutral whenever sensible regardless of grammatical gender.
01:21:11 <boily> feminine forms are a little bit irregular. docteur/docteure, acteur/actrice, boulanger/boulangère...
01:21:20 <shachaf> oerjan: next up do that for all other words twh
01:23:40 <oerjan> although many, but not all titles ending in -mann or -søster have been replaced. the progressive party famously <strike>still calls</strike> used to call its leader "formann" rather than "leder".
01:24:14 <oerjan> apparently they changed in 2009, 3 years after they got a female one.
01:26:06 <oerjan> many job titles would previously have added a feminine -inne ending, which was the closest thing to a grammatical variation.
01:26:18 <oerjan> (which german still does with -in)
01:27:58 <oerjan> i recall some bible verse using the actual word "manninne" for woman, i don't think it's ever been used elsewhere
01:29:32 <oerjan> i assume in hebrew like in english, the usual word for woman is actually related to the usual word for man
01:29:42 <oerjan> which is not the case in norwegian.
01:30:07 <oerjan> so the translaters had a bit of trouble with that verse, i assume
01:31:00 <boily> `learn A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
01:31:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'translater': A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
01:31:42 <oerjan> `learn A transformer is one who used to transe, but no longer does.
01:31:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'transformer': A transformer is one who used to transe, but no longer does.
01:31:54 <oerjan> `learn A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
01:31:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'transformer': A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
01:32:40 <shachaf> oerjan: genesis 2:23 uses two different words for man, it seems
01:33:04 <shachaf> but your assumption is correct
01:34:11 <shachaf> whoa, fancy: http://mathoverflow.net/q/211159
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02:21:14 <oren> gender neutral is bleh. They should just have 3 forms: male female and plural and use the plural for gender neutral like "they".
02:23:12 <oren> unless norwegian doesn't use neutral-plural for neutral-singular?
02:23:27 <oerjan> oren: norwegian doesn't actually have a "gender neutral" pronoun for persons.
02:23:56 <shachaf> grammatical gender is scow
02:24:28 <oerjan> the pronoun of "neutral" gender applies strictly to _nouns_ of that grammatical gender, which has nothing consistently to do with any biological issue
02:25:08 <oerjan> e.g. en:house = no:hus, the latter is neuter, so takes pronoun "det".
02:25:35 <oerjan> moreover, there's a separate non-neuter pronoun "den", used for non-persons.
02:25:44 <oren> shachaf: well maybe they could avoid problems by calling it grammatical color instead
02:25:51 <oerjan> (masculine and feminine is often not distinguished)
02:26:45 <oerjan> in fact in danish, there is no grammatical masculine/feminine apart from the personal pronouns
02:27:05 <oerjan> the distinction between neuter/non-neuter still exists, though
02:27:53 <oren> so it's the opposite of what happened in most romance languages
02:27:54 <oerjan> swedish and dutch are similar i think
02:28:19 <oren> rather than merging neuter and masculine, they merged masculine and feminine
02:32:24 <HackEgo> homestuck/Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
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02:59:59 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
03:31:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boolfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43449&oldid=30839 * Phase * (+892) Differences from Brainfuck & Examples
03:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boolfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43451&oldid=43449 * Phase * (-345) Remove unneeded text
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03:39:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43452&oldid=43443 * Phase * (+41) /* Paradigms */ Add refract paradigms
03:42:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43453&oldid=43452 * Phase * (+33) Add link to other header
03:42:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43454&oldid=43453 * Phase * (-33) Undo revision 43453 by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]])
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03:44:24 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -1
03:44:25 <HackEgo> 1246) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
03:44:35 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:44:40 <HackEgo> 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Argh]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43455 * Phase * (+19) Redirect "Argh" to "Argh!"
03:45:22 <HackEgo> 933) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski" \ 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:45:51 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:46:27 <oerjan> clearly lexande was the first person ever to think that
03:46:35 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: actually "dammit" is correct
03:47:00 <oerjan> also i suspect you're missing a "not" somewhere
03:47:16 <shachaf> who are you to say what's correct
03:47:34 <oerjan> shachaf: someone told me on the internet QED
03:48:13 <shachaf> http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-01-20#i_5022203
03:49:01 <oerjan> well tweets cannot be original context, that's clearly absurd
03:49:25 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm hungry what shall i eat twh
03:50:00 <Walpurgisnacht> well now I can tell all those people who mis corrected me to shove off
03:51:00 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not good with vegetarian cuisine
03:51:38 <oerjan> i suppose bread counts as vegetarian.
03:51:44 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: lots of chicken
03:52:28 <oerjan> the "official" national dish is sheep in cabbage, when people don't ironically say pizza
03:52:32 <Walpurgisnacht> I just eat idk whatever is put in front of me thats organic
03:54:23 <shachaf> I heard Norwegian pizza was the best in the world.
03:54:49 <oerjan> thousand flees on your camels, google, why are you stealing my arrow keys
03:57:49 <oerjan> the ones that normally allow me to scroll my browser
03:58:02 <shachaf> Are they going up and down in search results?
03:58:25 <shachaf> You used to be able to toggle that by pressing tab.
03:58:32 <shachaf> But I guess that doesn't work anymore.
03:58:42 <zzo38> Can you still use the pageup/pagedown key to scroll the browser window?
03:58:49 <oerjan> i wouldn't know, i only noticed it now
03:59:00 <oerjan> zzo38: i could use my touchpad scroll
04:00:07 <oerjan> shachaf: it doesn't _normally_ happened, it was probably a side effect of me selecting special preferences to rule out new results
04:00:52 <shachaf> How are you supposed to select search results without that feature?
04:01:19 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: i'm sure every country has a really stinky dish
04:02:14 <oerjan> shachaf: with the mouse i guess?
04:02:46 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: that's probably swedish surströmming
04:02:50 <zzo38> Selecting by numbers seem would better?
04:02:56 <shachaf> Sometimes I click links by pressing C-f and typing a substring of the link and then pressing Esc and then pressing Enter.
04:03:11 <shachaf> Remember when Enter was called Return?
04:03:17 <oerjan> zzo38: well if they actually showed the numbers...
04:04:04 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: however, icelandic hákarl has also been mentioned on previous occasions
04:04:17 <oerjan> (poisonous fermented shark)
04:05:18 <oerjan> i haven't tasted either and have no plans not to run away fast if offered
04:05:25 <oerjan> i like lutefisk, though
04:06:14 <oerjan> ...i've probably not tasted lutefisk since i first joined this channel...
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04:13:53 <Jafet> oerjan: "now we have two quotes"
04:18:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:18:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:18:39 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -1
04:18:44 <HackEgo> 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
04:19:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43456 * Phase * (+1570) Create €
04:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43457&oldid=43456 * Phase * (+3008) Add interpreter
04:24:32 <izabera> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/sequence.txt don't you think this is confusing?
04:26:21 <Jafet> You just need to write those numbers in Taneb's notation.
04:27:29 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,4,16,65536,2003529930406846464979072351560255750447825475569751419265...
04:28:20 <izabera> oerjan: i asked it after seeing the output from lambdabot
04:28:39 <oerjan> well you have to start somewhere
04:29:16 <oerjan> i think 0 may be the only complex number which isn't on any 2^z branch
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04:29:39 <oerjan> 2^z is entire, no branches
04:30:23 <oerjan> i guess that has the corresponding branches
04:31:05 <oerjan> hm now i wonder if there are any loops
04:32:07 <oerjan> obviously no real ones
04:33:50 <oerjan> anyway, 0 is the only number which isn't of the form 2^z
04:35:10 <Jafet> > exp (0.3181315 :+ negate 1.337235)
04:35:11 <lambdabot> 0.31813244152704157 :+ (-1.3372354713231642)
04:35:17 <Jafet> > log (0.3181315 :+ negate 1.337235)
04:35:19 <lambdabot> 0.318131007887779 :+ (-1.3372355870099664)
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06:15:59 <Taneb> Jafet, I have a notation?
06:17:04 <Taneb> Actually, I do have a notation
06:17:31 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:17:44 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
06:18:01 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/was not/was/' wisdom/'this sentence'
06:18:44 <Taneb> shachaf, that was the joke
06:18:59 <oerjan> huh IE actually displays mongolian vertical script
06:19:02 <Taneb> Making that wisdom a paradox
06:19:09 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/'this sentence' | grep summary:
06:19:12 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i \'s/was not/was/\' wisdom/\'this sentence\' \ summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i \'s/was/was not/\' wisdom/this\\ sentence \ summary: <shachaf> echo >wisdom/this\\ sentence \'This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.\'
06:19:57 <Taneb> (I preferred it with the not, and seeing as I invented it, I should have final say)
06:20:26 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure you're not the top authority on Tanebventions around here.
06:20:36 <oerjan> of course not, that's me hth
06:20:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
06:20:47 <shachaf> At any rate, the sentence you invented is whichever one is in the wisdom.
06:21:03 <shachaf> The reason I changed it back was that the "not" seemed kind of hostile.
06:21:05 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
06:21:11 <shachaf> Taneb seems like more of a mellow kind of person.
06:22:45 <oerjan> Taneb: do you have a cat to keep in your lap while looking mellow twh
06:23:12 <Taneb> If necessary I can probably borrow one
06:23:14 <shachaf> oerjan: "ll" isn't pronounced that way in english hth
06:23:21 <shachaf> you're thinking of spanish
06:23:29 <Taneb> I have a dog, though
06:23:39 <oerjan> Taneb: what about a shark tank to calmly meditate upon?
06:23:55 <oerjan> i guess sharks and dogs don't go well together
06:24:06 <Taneb> oerjan, I also have one of those toy sharks IKEA sells
06:24:45 <shachaf> ikea.us redirects straight to the US site
06:26:12 <oerjan> as opposed to actually _being_ the US site?
06:26:32 <shachaf> well, ikea.com takes you to the site selection page
06:28:34 <shachaf> Taneb: Why are flights SF<->NY so expensive this time of year?
06:28:42 <Taneb> shachaf, holiday season
06:28:47 <oerjan> Taneb: it looks like they've discontinued BLÅHAJ
06:28:47 <shachaf> I think you're our expert on flight prices.
06:29:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43458&oldid=43437 * Rdebath * (-208) Reverting, see talk
06:29:35 <oerjan> well it didn't give an ikea link
06:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43459&oldid=41132 * Rdebath * (+2682) /* I deleted the count. */ new section
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06:31:05 <quintopia> oerjan: for future reference, i don't know a lick of haskell. i can sort of read it based on prolog experience, but i can't category theory worth a damn and i can barely read the types
06:31:18 <shachaf> http://www.ikea.com/ms/de_DE/img/local_store_info/koblenz/pdf_files/Wunschzettel_web.pdf
06:31:55 <oerjan> i guess you're no longer a suspect, then
06:32:12 <oerjan> https://www.reddit.com/r/IKEA/comments/1xuthy/any_hope_on_getting_blåhaj_back_in_production/
06:32:17 <Taneb> Jafet, yes, in my notation, those numbers have quite nice representation
06:33:27 <shachaf> http://www.ikea.com/ae/en/catalog/categories/departments/childrens_ikea/18740/
06:33:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you probably forgot the quotes when googling, then it doesn't bother actually having it on the page hth
06:34:42 <shachaf> It's in http://www.ikea.com/ae/en/catalog/productsaz/1/
06:35:31 <Taneb> shachaf, consider a natural number
06:35:45 <Taneb> You can express one as a bitstring of 1s and 0s in the usual way
06:36:05 <Taneb> You can then express that string as a list of the distances between the 1s
06:36:26 <Taneb> (eg 1011 becomes 0,1,0)
06:36:40 <Taneb> I start at the low bits for reasons
06:38:36 <oerjan> "Women have started participating in the archery and girls in the horse-racing games, but not in Mongolian wrestling."
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06:40:44 <Taneb> shachaf, these distances can then be expressed as natural numbers with the same (now recursive) notation
06:40:56 <shachaf> I feel like I've heard this before.
06:44:52 <oerjan> pretty sure he's explained it here
06:46:26 <oerjan> Taneb: wait, what's the notation for 0
06:46:34 <Taneb> oerjan, empty list
06:47:33 <Taneb> 2 is [1], so [[[]]]
06:47:42 <Taneb> 3 is [0,0], so [[],[]]
06:47:52 <Taneb> 4 is [2], so [[[[]]]]
06:48:04 <oerjan> ok then your 1011 -> [0,1,0] cannot be right
06:48:30 <Taneb> oerjan, I think it should be 1101 on the left
06:48:33 <shachaf> Oh, this is your natural numbers as tree skeletons thing.
06:54:23 <Taneb> Anyway, those numbers in this notation become [], [[]], [[[]]], [[[[]]]], [[[[[]]]]] etc
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07:57:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43460&oldid=26856 * Phase * (+67) learnxinyminutes link
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08:12:28 <rdococ> I was here the entire time?
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08:36:04 <nooga> any interesting esolangs lately?
08:38:53 <shachaf> Taneb: why are us tax laws so complicated tdnh
08:39:03 <Taneb> If I did they would be simpler
08:39:17 <Taneb> Have you made sure you filled in the box for illegal income
08:39:24 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
08:39:57 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/irc | grep summary:
08:39:58 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> learn IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <olsner> learn irc is useless.
08:40:32 <shachaf> Taneb: i don't have any illegal income as far as i know
08:40:49 <Taneb> Then you should declare that as such
08:41:14 <shachaf> if i declare illegal income is it still illegal?
08:42:35 <int-e> sure, but at least they won't get you for tax evasion
08:43:49 <Jafet> Is there any server not constructed from relays?
08:45:20 <Taneb> Jafet, it's not called Internet Vacuum Tube Chat
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11:17:39 <oerjan> looks like this might be one of those skip-ahead-sleeping-cycle days
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11:43:27 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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12:33:49 <boily> @tell quintopia Will be momentarily disappearing towards faraway lands. Be back in a few hours. Meanwhile, Steam will be installing the stuff that has to be installed.
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15:05:10 <oren> I've been programming in 6502 machine code
15:06:23 <oren> It's fun to try to set up a subroutine such that jumping into the middle of an instruction gives you a different path.
15:06:58 <Slereah__> Does anyone still program in machine code
15:07:06 <Slereah__> Maybe the people who write assemblers I guess
15:08:39 <oren> I think they probably write in assembly, then hand-translate it..
15:09:32 <Slereah__> Some nerds still do machine code I suppose
15:09:50 <Slereah__> But they do it for the thrill of writing machine code
15:10:17 <Slereah__> Really before I actually learned assembly
15:10:25 <Slereah__> I imagined that assembly was p. much machine code
15:10:31 <Slereah__> So it turned out, it was pretty easy
15:11:54 <oren> Yeah, but 6502 machine code is much easier than other computers machine codes.
15:14:13 <oren> because every instruction is of one of 3 forms: ins, ins byte, ins word.
15:14:41 <oren> where ins is one byte, byte is a data byte, and word is a little-endian data word
15:15:33 <Jafet> In x86, jumping into the middle of an instruction can not only be fun, but extremely profitable
15:16:00 <oren> Slereah__: no. 6502 is strictly in-order
15:16:45 <Jafet> Processors can pipeline strictly in-order
15:16:56 <Slereah__> Hence why I said weird pipelining shit
15:17:13 <Jafet> Out-of-order execution, then
15:17:17 <HackEgo> mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
15:17:31 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*6502*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:17:42 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*penis*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:17:44 <int-e> MIPS single delay slot after branches is tame though.
15:17:52 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
15:19:34 <int-e> fun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_ordering#Runtime_memory_ordering
15:20:37 <izabera> https://asciinema.org/a/23275 <- does this happen only to me?
15:20:42 <oren> Another technique I've been using to mod games is putting a subroutine into the graphics data, if I can find a part that is never acutally used
15:20:51 <izabera> i asked a friend and he can't reproduce
15:21:22 <Jafet> Sounds like an embarrassing medical problem.
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15:24:49 <oren> can you mount a disk over a non-empty directory, and what happens if you do (I think I just accidentally did so)
15:25:38 <Jafet> The directory will point to the disk until it's unmounted.
15:26:44 <Jafet> (A trickier question: do open file handles still work, and what does procfs say their filenames are?)
15:27:04 <oren> ok good, I'll just unmount and mount to the correct place
15:27:30 <oren> hmm actually I'll first check
15:27:40 <oren> yeah I can see the files,
15:27:50 <oren> and the contents are fine
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15:28:55 <oren> oh, do you mean files from before the disk was mounted?
15:29:05 <int-e> izabera: can't reproduce it either; a final empty line seems to get erased, but that's independent of HISTCONTROL
15:29:29 <Jafet> int-e: "Dependent loads can be reordered (this is unique for Alpha)" I'm suddenly glad that nobody uses alpha64.
15:29:50 <izabera> int-e: thanks for the test
15:31:30 <int-e> Jafet: I believe the Linux kernel developers have lots of fun because of this :)
15:31:42 * int-e is a bit disappointed that Sparc is so tame these days...
15:33:00 <Jafet> If an SMP architecture had no mfence instructions, would it qualify as an esolang
15:35:56 <int-e> SMPAWNRMOC -- SMP architecture with no reliable means of communication?
15:36:23 <Jafet> Also, is it possible to maintain an operating system if you have IPIs and privileged mode but no fences
15:36:31 <oren> Idea: a NES emulator that first cross-compiles to x64-opengl
15:36:45 <oren> and then simply runs the program.
15:37:19 <oren> It would not work with my machine coded code, but perhaps many games would work
15:37:33 <Jafet> Wouldn't NES games require cycle-accurate emulators?
15:37:50 <oren> depends which games
15:38:26 <oren> Some games would require the program to have a loop simulating scanlines and vbreaks, others just vbreaks.
15:39:30 <oren> The PPU (picture processing unit) is fairly advanced in the NES.
15:39:41 <oren> Atari, however...
15:40:54 <Jafet> Maybe start by decompiling 6502 to qemu TCG
15:54:44 <Jafet> Actually, it's possible to communicate by busy-waiting on a cache line, so there is a reliable, if stupid, means of communication
15:56:43 <int-e> Jafet: that's assuming some amount of cache coherence.
15:59:26 <Jafet> Well, it only assumes that the write from one core, if nothing else writes to the same memory, is eventually read by another core
16:01:01 <int-e> the way I was picturing it, the only way to force a memory read would be to read from a memory location that's not in the cache, and writing only happens on flushing cache lines; at the same time, the CPU is allowed to do arbitrary prefetching or write-back; I guess I would not allow it to write data that is inconsistent with its own cache state.
16:02:00 <int-e> so in the typical spin lock case, the CPU could just decide to never write back that cache line...
16:02:04 <Jafet> You can force that by reading a number of cache lines larger than the cache size
16:02:18 <Jafet> And you can probe the cache size by reading 1 extra, then 2 extra, then 3 extra lines...
16:02:37 <int-e> not really, the evil CPU can decide to keep that cache line around just to spite you ;)
16:03:04 <int-e> so you actually need to use a memory area larger than the cache to force some write to go through
16:03:23 <int-e> Of course I'm just aiming for nastiness here.
16:04:03 <Jafet> Ok, then use a really large memory area for communicating a single bit
16:04:26 <Jafet> (well, you can communicate anything that fits in one line, copying it over and over.)
16:04:48 <Jafet> This is starting to sound appropriately esoteric
16:06:21 <int-e> but somehow boring :/
16:08:51 <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus
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16:11:00 <int-e> hmm, here's an evil idea for single-threaded programs: At program start, set up the data area so that each memory cell has a randomly assigned buddy; updates to the memory cell will also update its buddy and vice versa... now write reliable programs on top of that. shouldn't be hard, but what kind of patterns would you use?
16:12:10 <int-e> (this is inspired by an actual broken MFM drive I once had, with one address line broken... which confused the hell of a "disk repair" tool. good old times...)
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16:19:47 <Jafet> To begin with, there are (n n/2)/2 possible sets of non-interfering cells, which could be represented in about 2n bits
16:21:35 <Jafet> So this might be more fun if each word has not much more than 4 bits
16:22:48 <Jafet> Alternatively, make all registers also memory mapped
16:23:22 <zzo38> One way in a 6502 code where jumping into the middle of an instruction might be useful is the case of a "clock slide"
16:25:24 <zzo38> I know how to do 6502 programming.
16:29:30 <zzo38> A NES/Famicom emulator that doesn't emulate each cycle accurately is simply incorrect. However, there are many ways to make it incomplete without being incorrect, such as: * Don't play any audio (but you still need to implement the length counters and the DPCM timing and DPCM interference) * Omit implementations of some mappers * Omit implementation of some input devices * Run slower than realtime * Require only batch I/O
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16:33:44 <zzo38> To be correct you must also implement all stable unofficial opcodes, and of any mappers you are implementing, even the features that were never used (although you can omit playback of expansion audio and therefore omit implementation of registers that affect only audio and don't affect interrupts or the reading of any other registers or whatever else)
16:35:48 <mroman_> If T-Shirts don't do shit against the sun
16:36:04 <mroman_> then how come I have never gotten a sun burn on the part of the skin covered by a T-Shirt
16:36:17 <mroman_> which means that I wouldn't even need suncream
16:36:18 <int-e> mroman_: [citation needed]
16:36:30 <mroman_> WP on the other hand states that a white t-shirt has a pf of 10
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16:36:43 <mroman_> so since if've never got burnt while wearing a t-shirt
16:36:53 <mroman_> this would indicate that you don't need pf >30 or even 50
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16:37:05 <mroman_> somebody is lying like shit
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16:39:48 <int-e> https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/1226/whats-the-upf-of-a-t-shirt-or-jeans seems relevant
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16:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43461&oldid=43459 * Zzo38 * (+1170) Unicode is not a valid assumption.
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17:12:58 <oren> zzo38: well yes, but *how* incorrect is it? To what degree do production NES games rely on length of instruction execution? For example, many games I've analyzed spend most of their time busywaiting for the VBreak.
17:15:23 <zzo38> oren: It doesn't matter; it is still incorrect, since then a program you write really strangely which is still valid but that nobody knows before, won't be executed correctly.
17:17:31 <mroman_> Suncream is all full of bullshit
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17:18:18 <oren> I usually opt to use an umbrella on super sunny days
17:18:48 <mroman_> Can't do sports with an umbrella though.
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17:19:01 <boily> sounds like a challenge.
17:20:14 <mroman_> a T-Shirt is as good as applying suncream with 30 SPF
17:20:58 <Taneb> mroman_, t-shirt doesn't cover your nose
17:21:21 <Taneb> Unless you're wearing it wrong
17:21:35 <Taneb> In which case it doesn't cover your chest
17:21:48 <Taneb> (and I normally use 50+ suncream)
17:21:58 <mroman_> I used to do sports outside with shirt off
17:22:08 <mroman_> but my hyperchondriasis has gone worse
17:22:26 <boily> what's hyperchondriasis?
17:23:23 <oren> hypochondriac: someone who constantly worries about geeting ill
17:24:18 <mroman_> call it heliophobia then .
17:24:33 <oren> I use an umbrella because I burn easily. damned russian and irish genes.
17:24:44 <boily> oren: yes, but for mroman_ it's hyper.
17:25:01 <boily> ah! there was a hypocorrection I haven't seen.
17:25:05 <int-e> Also 10 UPF is 30 SPF <-- only because SPF factors tend to be inflated (assuming optimal application of probably insane amounts of sun cream)
17:25:34 <int-e> hmm. s/SPF factors/SPFs/.
17:27:02 <oren> what's the UPF of a completely opaque object?
17:27:42 <boily> some random positive integer. probably 5.
17:27:45 <int-e> good question, how much UVA is in vacuum radiation? ;-)
17:42:37 <quintopia> helloily. I'm gonna go for an hour or two now. Is the installation complete?
17:47:17 <boily> redeeming my keys and downloading the stuff.
17:47:44 <boily> 55% on borderlands 2, downloading at 1.2 MB/s.
17:47:57 <boily> is there an ETA or ETC in steam?
17:48:14 <quintopia> there is a progress bar in the downloads list
17:48:22 <int-e> utopia, bitopia (biotopia), tritopia, quadtopia, quintopia, sixtopia, heptopia, octatopia?
17:48:27 <boily> that much is there.
17:48:50 * int-e somehow never saw the "quint" in there before.
17:48:52 <boily> I'd say... eh... probably somewhere in an hour, maybe 90 minutes.
17:49:24 <boily> char-e, short-e, int-e, long-e too?
17:50:01 <boily> that would presuppose a float-e, and maybe an arbitrary-precision-e.
17:51:23 <int-e> anyway I guess I deserved that
17:51:37 <int-e> just correcting a type error.
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17:52:37 <shachaf> I assumed int-e was an interrupt, not an integer.
18:01:10 <quintopia> boily: you should read the ONUW I just played in. It was the most shocking game I've ever played.
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18:07:30 <boily> question of the day: is int-e maskable?
18:07:46 <boily> quintopia: is it also on xkcd's forums?
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18:13:17 <b_jonas> boily: I don't think int-e is an interrupt. it's more like an integer or integral or internal or intrinsic or intricacy or integrity or something.
18:13:20 <oren> I assumed int-e meant interrupt E out of 10
18:13:52 <oren> like maybe some processor has 16 interrupt lines?
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18:30:29 <fizzie> Every time I see anything related to complex numbers, the word "zomplex" pops up somewhere in my head.
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18:30:57 <fizzie> (It's a double-precision complex value.)
18:31:49 <fizzie> shazzie. Err, no, I got that wrong.
18:32:10 <shachaf> I think you mean fizzichaf
18:32:28 <shachaf> Do you want a patch to fix it?
18:32:40 <fizzie> Is it a one-line patch?
18:33:58 <fizzie> It's kind of awkward: the "correct" way would be to go via https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests because if I out-of-band patch the HackEgo instance, it might complicate Gregor's life unnecessarily.
18:34:03 <fizzie> But that might involve even more waiting.
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18:34:58 <shachaf> Anyway the one line fix involves learning find syntax.
18:40:04 <fizzie> Yeah, it's nasty. I think the find might look something like find "$HACKENV" -path "$HACKENV/.hg" -prune -o -name '*.orig' -exec rm -f '{}' \; -- you *can* do it by an extra test for every file, but the documentation says you're not supposed to. I did something like this once.
18:41:33 <shachaf> There's also -not -path "$HACKENV/.hg/*"
18:41:40 <fizzie> Yes, but it's LESS EFFICIENT.
18:41:55 <shachaf> Yes, it'll traverse the whole directory. What a disaster.
18:42:00 <fizzie> "To ignore a whole directory tree, use -prune rather than checking every file in the tree."
18:42:05 <fizzie> See, that's what they say.
18:42:31 <HackEgo> oerjan mroman_ oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan fizzie Bike FreeFull elliott oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
18:43:17 <boily> huh. I never culprited fizzie.
18:44:07 <fizzie> My shameful secret of setting my own wisdom entry is revealed. :/
18:46:24 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/fizzie | grep '<fizzie>'
18:46:25 <HackEgo> summary: <fizzie> learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad.
18:46:52 <shachaf> fizzie: can you make ^style irc be the internal revenue code for a while twh
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18:51:10 <boily> quintopia: fungot fscking dammit. stuck with updates. 55 minutes remaining.
18:51:10 <fungot> boily: an order requiring the clerk of the change; but if the weather for a cardinal's claim until the judge of a
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18:57:02 <quintopia> boily: no prob. itll be at least that long before i finish my errands
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19:19:50 <fizzie> I think what I put there was a fungot quote.
19:19:50 <fungot> fizzie: ( d) the matter being considered, for every five blots e wishes in a month, the
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19:42:42 <HackEgo> test/test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
19:42:52 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
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19:47:08 <b_jonas> `` culprits wisdom/test | sort | uniq -c
19:47:09 <HackEgo> 1 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
19:47:16 <b_jonas> `` culprits wisdom/test | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c
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20:22:33 <HackEgo> homestuck/Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
20:22:41 <HackEgo> marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
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20:40:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43462&oldid=43461 * Rdebath * (+292) /* I deleted the count. */
20:42:57 <HackEgo> ø/ø is not going anywhere.
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20:52:15 <HackEgo> wikipedia/Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages.
20:52:34 <HackEgo> itym/itym "i think you mean" hth
20:52:37 <HackEgo> oerjan_/oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
20:53:10 <boily> time for some update... but tomorrow. today I'm steaming my laptop.
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21:26:08 <quintopia> have you gotten your laptop sufficiently angry yet?
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21:36:55 <oren> they should make a wikipedia where all facts are represented in RDF instead of a human lanuage
21:37:24 <boily> quintopia: the only thing missing are my headphones, and we're good to go.
21:38:19 <oren> RDF is this url-based system for representing predicates
21:38:36 <oren> zzo38 knows a lot about it
21:43:39 <oren> `le/rn RDF/RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
21:44:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
21:44:31 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
21:44:34 <shachaf> Hmm, mk doesn't lowercase either.
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21:49:33 <boily> it happened that steam crashed, and doesn't want to be launched again.
21:50:42 <boily> going to log off, log back in, see if it still antagonizes me, perhaps reboot.
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21:51:12 <int-e> . o O ( STEAMING CHICKEN )
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22:32:03 <zzo38> RDF is a kind of directed-graphs with nodes and kind of edges identified by URIs.
22:32:21 <zzo38> Except that there is also literals, and also unlabeled nodes.
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22:43:42 <HackEgo> RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
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23:05:27 <oerjan> Inri_Cristo: thought you were one of the people looking for the wrong kind of esoteric for a moment there
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23:16:01 <zzo38> Inri_Cristo didn't write anything yet though, therefore is also possibility some people are join just to look, too
23:16:17 <zzo38> (At least, not recently)
23:20:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SuperPar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43463&oldid=20844 * Zzo38 * (+644)
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23:21:30 <zzo38> Yes, I am here and probably a few others
23:21:58 <frecz> does anybody have experience with precognitive dreams?
23:22:19 <zzo38> I know someone who does
23:22:40 <frecz> because I'm really lost
23:23:07 <frecz> can;t figure out how come one can dream about the future
23:23:08 <zzo38> I myself cannot say though. I have many kind of strange dream recorded in my computer (myself and others), but not precognitive or anything like that I know!
23:23:15 <zzo38> If you want information, look in Wikipedia
23:23:27 <frecz> trust me I looked everywhere
23:23:50 <frecz> I even contacted a research group
23:24:22 <zzo38> Some people say it is just coincidence. Probably at least in some cases it is.
23:24:42 <frecz> I wish they were just soincidence
23:25:36 <frecz> and there is an indication after waking from these dreams that they are precognitive
23:25:41 <zzo38> Another possibility I thought of (now known to be wrong, I think?) is that it isn't really precognitive but your memory is mixed up because the dream is confusing that you know afterward seem it is
23:26:02 <frecz> ok here is an example:
23:26:24 <frecz> one night I dream about a guy who has got green dices on his forehead
23:26:34 <frecz> I even told to my friend what a strange dream
23:27:06 <HackEgo> frecz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:27:20 <zzo38> If you tell someone ahead of time, don't you think they can cause it?
23:27:21 <oren> ACK NAK ETX VT
23:27:28 <frecz> 3 days later I met a guy at a train station who had got a piercing in his eyebrows and 2 green dices attached both of its ends
23:28:09 <frecz> can you tell me that it is a coincidence?
23:28:36 <zzo38> oren: Is that supposed to be names of ASCII codes? Of what kind of program is it the ASCII codes of?
23:28:42 <zzo38> frecz: I can say I don't know!
23:29:12 <oren> I'm working on an aternative to ANSI escapes..
23:29:16 <frecz> I'm 100% percent sure that they are precognitive
23:29:24 <zzo38> Possibly due to "morphic resonance fields" which nobody really knows anything about or even if it is exist.
23:29:33 <frecz> and trust me I'm skeptic in general
23:29:59 <zzo38> I am also skeptical but equally I know I don't know everything and should consider all of the possibilities regardless.
23:30:08 <zzo38> oren: O, OK. Do you have a document of it?
23:30:34 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you if there are too many possibilities to consider?
23:30:41 <frecz> anybody here has got these dreams?
23:30:55 <zzo38> shachaf: I didn't say I *can* consider all of the possibilities, only that I *should*.
23:31:05 <shachaf> Should you do the impossible?
23:31:11 <oren> Working on that right now... So essentially I'm working on a program to translate my simpler escapes into termios/a
23:31:22 <oren> ANSI escapes and so on
23:31:27 <frecz> guys to be honest, something is wrong with this world
23:31:39 <frecz> or I should say woth this universe
23:31:55 <zzo38> frecz: Not as far as I remember, I have had such dream, but I have had some kind of strange dream too
23:32:01 <frecz> something just doesnt add up
23:32:18 <frecz> they are not just strange dreams
23:32:23 <oren> Maybe you need to learn more about the world.
23:32:28 <frecz> I have those every now on then
23:32:36 <frecz> these dreams are different
23:33:10 <zzo38> oren: It is true, even physicists don't know all of laws of physics, such as how to combine general relativity with quantum mechanics, I think.
23:33:23 <zzo38> This clearly explains something, but who knows what, yet?
23:33:27 <oerjan> zzo38: i meant based on Inri_Cristo's nickname
23:33:43 -!- Inri_Cristo has changed nick to h0rsep0wer.
23:33:43 <oren> For example, people essentially overwrite their memories every time they remember them. Thus, what you remeber your dream being now, isn't necessarily what it really was
23:34:07 <zzo38> Well, "INRI" is Latin for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews", isn't it?
23:34:40 <frecz> oren: I see your point
23:34:43 <zzo38> oren: Yes I have thought of that as one possible way, but in some cases I have heard of, that hypothesis doesn't work (in some cases it does though)
23:34:52 <frecz> and trust I wish that would be my case
23:35:06 <frecz> but sadly it is not...
23:35:09 <oren> Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaiorum
23:35:30 <zzo38> oren: Yes I know a few Latin words like that
23:36:09 <oren> frecz: Try writing your dreams down every morning, then you can test whether you can remember them correctly after a few days
23:36:30 <zzo38> Yes, that is a good test, I believe so too
23:36:49 <frecz> I can recall all of my dreams without writing them down
23:37:08 <frecz> I can even tell you what I dreamed about 2 years ago
23:37:11 <oren> But how do you know you aren't remembering them wrong
23:37:15 <zzo38> If you never wrote it down or told anyone or otherwise communicate it, how do you know your memory is not mix up?
23:37:52 <frecz> because these dreams seems so real that I wake up immedietaly and I'm full of sweat
23:38:16 <frecz> those dreams are so real that I need at least half an hour to get back to real life...
23:38:16 <zzo38> That isn't a real proof
23:38:19 <oren> Next time that happens, try writing it on IRC right away
23:38:42 <zzo38> Write it anywhere. IRC, paper, or tell it to a tape recorder, whatever
23:38:44 <frecz> nobody would believe me
23:38:56 <oren> It will be logged, then when it happens you can prove that you knew
23:39:01 <zzo38> frecz: Doesn't matter.
23:39:17 <zzo38> And, yes, this IRC channel is logged, including timestamps.
23:39:32 <frecz> how can I proove that something happened to me via irc?
23:40:14 <zzo38> Before you prove it to others, you must prove it to yourself.
23:40:17 <oren> you can't do that, but *you* will know if you are lying
23:40:39 <frecz> I don't need proof for myself
23:40:49 <frecz> I know that I'm not crazy
23:40:59 <frecz> I know that I've had those dreams
23:41:11 <shachaf> zzo38: What would you say about a dream where seven thin cows eat seven fat cows?
23:41:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Just that it look strange, but I also seem to remember I think in the Bible something like that is mentioned, or something like that
23:41:50 <oren> That's impossible to know for sure. the definition of crazy is based on society at large, hence an individual can't tell for himself whther he is crazy.
23:42:51 <zzo38> Even society at large, I think, does not know; but an individual doesn't know either, you can only guess
23:43:51 <oren> Oh right that was in the movie Joseph king of dreams
23:44:25 <Sgeo_> Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY29UTk59uw the official profunctor lens anthem?
23:45:22 <zzo38> I do record many of my own dream I remember (or believe I remember the details I typed) anyways, and also from what others have told me too; but, not precognitive as far as I know.
23:45:39 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I think you know why
23:46:16 <shachaf> Sgeo_: I can't play audio right now.
23:46:20 <shachaf> Is it just because of the name Forget?
23:46:38 <shachaf> I called it Forget because it's used for getting.
23:46:46 <shachaf> I never intended that to be a real name.
23:47:07 <mauris> the best pun since Atkey
23:48:32 <zzo38> Once I watched a television show, some scientists were researching reincarnation, and I thought: Reincarnation? That's nonsense; it is really a new kind of resonance. This was not mentioned on the show; they just called it reincarnation. Later though I learned that the researcher did have a similar idea to what I had; they just didn't mention it on the TV.
23:49:54 <zzo38> But, of course, how am I even to say for sure, if nobody even understand very well yet?
23:52:01 <frecz> zzo38: do you like poutine?
23:52:29 <zzo38> (Even though I am Canadian, but I don't live in Quebec)
23:53:10 <boily> frellocz! do you like poutine?
23:53:13 <frecz> I wish to try some poutine with real cheese curds
23:53:14 <shachaf> zzo38: If you lived in Quebec, would you like poutine?
23:53:23 <zzo38> shachaf: How would I know?
23:53:45 <shachaf> zzo38: You can give me your best approximation of the answer.
23:54:14 <zzo38> My best approximation is still that I don't know, though.
23:54:27 <frecz> Canada is one of the best places on earth I think
23:55:29 <frecz> and canadians are one of the best people on earth
23:56:55 <boily> we're also nice under earth, besides earth, even in space!
23:56:57 <oerjan> eek frecz likes poutine? this cannot be just coincidence. boily?!!!
23:57:24 <boily> oerjan: they haven't tried the REAL DEAL yet, with real cheese curds.
23:57:30 <oren> I'm Ontarian so I prefer vinegar on fries
23:57:32 <shachaf> ` rot13 frecz # coincidence
23:57:32 <boily> frecz: ever been to Québec?
23:57:37 <shachaf> I guess it is a coincidence.
23:57:40 <boily> oren: malt vinegar?
23:57:45 <frecz> boily: that is what I'm talking about
23:57:47 <shachaf> oops, missed a question mark
23:57:56 <frecz> boily: never been to Canada
23:58:05 <zzo38> Some things are described as "coincidence" or "not coincidence" but don't tell how much coincidence it is, since this could matter too maybe
23:58:11 <oerjan> shachaf: you're probably an atheist and wouldn't recognize a synchronicity if it bit you in the ass hth
23:58:22 <boily> oren: I agree with you. fish'n'chips with malt vinegar. and a pint of ale.
23:58:27 <oerjan> (this goes for 90% of the channel)
23:58:31 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with all these assumptions
23:58:49 * oerjan vaguely prepares to learn that shachaf is strictly hasidic
23:58:54 <zzo38> I think synchronicitity is subjective anyways though?
23:59:32 <boily> frecz: you should come to Montréal, enjoy the scenery, the food, the potholes...
23:59:45 <oren> oerjan: I don't even know how to pronounce syncronicity