←2015-07-30 2015-07-31 2015-08-01→ ↑2015 ↑all
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00:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea for a sort of esoteric concept in programming
00:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> Somthing that could be put into libraries and such
00:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> Material Time
00:15:10 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to hear about it?
00:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38 perhaps?
00:16:01 <oerjan> tswett: ^^
00:16:14 <boily> hppavellon[1]. material time?
00:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> Yes
00:17:00 <hppavilion[1]> Would you like to hear about it?
00:18:04 <zzo38> OK what is idea?
00:18:06 <boily> I would like to hear about iiiiit ♪
00:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> Basically
00:18:33 <hppavilion[1]> And this is probably going to sound pretty stupid once I say it
00:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> Time in computer science is typically represented as A) A number (for durations) or B) A point in time (for time/date)
00:19:38 <hppavilion[1]> My idea is basically a way to represent time in human terms
00:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> So to represent the duration of 5 minutes, 22 seconds (in python), one might use a list or set:
00:20:39 <hppavilion[1]> [minute()*5, second()*22]
00:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> In this syntax, minute*5 returns a list of 5 minute() instances
00:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> And the same syntax is used for secodns
00:21:45 <Taneb> That's more of a bag (or multiset)
00:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> It's a pythonic list
00:23:13 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I mean, there's no point in allowing [minute()*3, second()*12, minute()*4]
00:23:26 <Taneb> That's still 7 minutes and 12 seconds
00:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
00:23:37 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd technically work
00:23:42 <hppavilion[1]> Just due to bugginess
00:23:48 <hppavilion[1]> It'd work in implementation
00:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> So?
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00:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily? zzo38?
00:27:41 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], could you use this for other measurements?
00:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose you could
00:27:58 <Taneb> Like [feet()*4, inch()*8]
00:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know why I didn't think of that :P
00:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> Though it'd be foot()*4
00:29:06 <Taneb> Good point
00:29:32 <hppavilion[1]> And there'd be rich comparison operators
00:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> So assert foot() == inch()*12 will work properly
00:30:27 <boily> [minute()*5, foot()*foot()*minute()*fungot()]
00:30:27 <fungot> boily: people dudes. only that code right there can see the bloom right
00:30:37 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you idea blooms. I approve.
00:30:40 <Taneb> And maybe inch() == millimetre()*25.6
00:30:48 <Taneb> boily, so, fungot is inverse area?
00:30:48 <fungot> Taneb: what is odd abpit tje irc protomilk
00:30:49 <boily> Tanelle. itym 25.4.
00:31:09 <boily> it's abpit tje irc hth
00:31:09 <Taneb> boily, maybe, I don't remember the precise conversion on the tenth of millimeters
00:31:20 <hppavilion[1]> The only problem with this as an Esoteric library is it could be potentially useful for better undersanding code efor some people :P
00:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> OOOH
00:31:56 <hppavilion[1]> OOH
00:32:07 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you could get weird things like foot()*hour()*hertz() == 3600*foot()
00:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> mile*65/hour()
00:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> *mile()
00:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> though I suppose one could make a variable called mile that equals mile()
00:32:58 <hppavilion[1]> No...
00:33:03 <hppavilion[1]> That wouldn't really work
00:33:05 <hppavilion[1]> Well, it might
00:33:14 <Taneb> Yeah, none of these need to be functions
00:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> They're classes
00:33:38 <Taneb> They don't need to be classes, either
00:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> mile() is pythonic syntax for "A new instance of the mile class"
00:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> True
00:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> I do suppose not
00:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> But if we make them that, we can give them methods
00:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> And everything is nicer in the world of OCD programming if we do
00:34:32 <hppavilion[1]> So we could do things like
00:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> second.sleepfor()
00:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> I guess we could also just make a method called sleepfor()
00:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> And I guess that'd be cleaner too :P
00:35:12 <hppavilion[1]> And look nicer
00:35:17 <Taneb> I would have second, hour, etc be objects in the timeamount class or something
00:35:20 <hppavilion[1]> And be better in every way
00:35:28 <hppavilion[1]> That works
00:35:36 <boily> you should call that lib Feather.
00:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> class duration{}
00:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> class second(duration){...}
00:36:05 <hppavilion[1]> class minute(duration){...}
00:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> Etc...
00:36:16 <hppavilion[1]> Should I start work on this library?
00:36:31 <boily> you should.
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00:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include Furlongs and the like?
00:42:35 <Taneb> If you like
00:43:30 <hppavilion[1]> OK
00:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> How should I implement things like miles/hour?
00:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> Should I just create a speed class with operator overloading?
00:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I do something more complex?
00:45:22 <Taneb> That is up to you
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00:46:12 <hppavilion[1]> I will, of course, use SI units for conversion
00:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll stick with modern equivalents of SI Units, instead of old units of meaurement that they used in the past. So that'll be a pain
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01:06:43 <hppavilion[1]> OK
01:06:48 <hppavilion[1]> So here's how I'm converting time
01:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> I have a list of doubles
01:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> The first item of each double is a time material
01:07:28 <hppavilion[1]> And the second is how big it is in relation to the previous
01:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> So year is (month, 12)
01:07:56 <hppavilion[1]> Immediately followed by (decade, 10)
01:12:51 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, that sounds like what I'm remembering.
01:13:36 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: your material time idea reminds me of the idea of a programming language where variables can contain money.
01:13:54 <tswett> Of course, in such a language, you can't simply copy the value of one variable to another variable.
01:14:17 <tswett> If a function takes some money as an argument, you probably don't want to call it excessively many times.
01:15:03 <Jafet> That's an unusual usage for linear (or, since we're dealing with money, affine) types.
01:15:05 <tswett> If you have a closure that *returns* money, then you can only call the closure once, because calling it exhausts the money.
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01:17:03 <tswett> So, I feel like my operating system is uncontrollably hurtling towards version 0.1.
01:17:11 <tswett> Or maybe I should call it version 0.0.1, or 0.0.0.1, or ...
01:17:28 <Jafet> Assign it a version smaller than any positive real
01:17:43 <tswett> Yes, yes, version epsilon.
01:17:58 <tswett> Version x as x approaches 0 from the right.
01:18:08 <tswett> (Not to be confused with version the limit of x as x approaches 0 from the right.)
01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> My system will assume that a year equals 365 days becuse I don't feel like figuring out how many months _really_ go into a year
01:19:11 <tswett> Or just version -1. That's smaller than any positive real.
01:20:49 <tswett> Let's see. Maybe version 0.1 should mean "kind of vaguely sort of usable". Then version 0.0.1 should mean "it does *something* significant", and version 0.0.0.1 should mean "it does something at all".
01:21:27 <tswett> So I've already achieved version 0.0.0.1.
01:22:56 <hppavilion[1]> Well I'm bored with it for now
01:23:22 <tswett> My goals for version 0.0.1 are dynamic memory allocation, cooperative thread switching, and handling of keyboard input.
01:24:10 <hppavilion[1]> What operating system?
01:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> What are you writing it in?
01:24:21 <hppavilion[1]> TELL ME THINGS
01:35:48 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: TELLLL MEEEEEEE
01:36:12 * tswett returns to the keyboard.
01:36:25 <tswett> It's called Rivertooth. I'm writing it in Rust.
01:38:42 <tswett> I think I'll just use a best-fit memory allocation algorithm.
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01:49:34 <tswett> The hard part is choosing which type of search tree to use.
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01:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Is it an actual OS or does it run under another OS?
01:54:32 <tswett> It's an actual OS. It runs right on bare metal.
01:54:42 <tswett> At least, it's supposed to. It runs successfully in an emulator.
01:54:51 <tswett> Also, I seem to be more or less drunk at the moment.
01:54:58 <tswett> I'd describe myself as... 70% drunk?
01:55:08 <tswett> Just, y'know, for what it's worth.
01:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> That's right in the correct zone, from what I'm told.
01:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> I presume it isn't graphical?
01:56:23 <tswett> Nope.
01:56:48 <tswett> So far, as you might be able to guess, it doesn't have dynamic memory allocation, thread switching, or support for keyboard input.
01:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> True
01:57:09 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that would come before Graphics
01:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I meant I assumed you weren't _planning_ on making it graphical
01:57:44 <hppavilion[1]> Whelp
01:57:51 <tswett> I might at some point; I dunno.
01:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> I might as well learn rust now if you can make OSes in it :P
01:58:00 <tswett> I'm not really planning to ever support the mouse.
01:59:21 <hppavilion[1]> What emulator are you using?
02:00:08 <tswett> Bochs.
02:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> And where did you learn to do this?
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02:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Would there happen to be a convenient online tutorial I could view?
02:02:34 * hppavilion[1] prays to atheist god that tswett didn't learn about OS development from a University or something
02:02:57 <tswett> There aren't really any OS development tutorials. There are some sort of guide-like things to help you out.
02:03:06 <tswett> Also, wiki.osdev.org contains a lot of useful information.
02:03:06 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:03:10 <hppavilion[1]> Oh right
02:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> OSdev
02:03:17 <hppavilion[1]> Forgot about that site :P
02:03:58 <MDream> Well, there's sort of a tutorial now.
02:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> Whelp
02:04:11 <hppavilion[1]> Thanks!
02:04:15 <MDream> I ought to read that more, but I'd like to actually make some user programs first.
02:04:49 <MDream> Also it will mostly be very silly things like operating systems made to work like adventure games.
02:05:04 <MDream> The operating systems I'd like to make, I mean.
02:05:59 <MDream> Basically, operating systems made to work like they were made in a science fiction movie.
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02:10:59 <oerjan> it's an MDream system! i know this!
02:19:08 <Sgeo_> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010111
02:32:08 <tswett> Lessee. I think I'll say that each memory slab is simultaneously a node in a red–black tree and a node in a doubly linked list.
02:33:14 <tswett> But first I'll sleep for about eight hours.
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02:46:05 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of jokes? http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Textbook_Humor#Computing Do you have some of these book, some of the links don't work, and do you have additional examples?
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02:48:00 <Sgeo_> http://ideone.com/WR1Awc a is used in two contexts where it takes on different types, this surprised me for some reason
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04:04:58 <oerjan> ?@ hm...
04:04:58 <lambdabot> hm...
04:05:08 <quintopia> supoerjan
04:05:21 <oerjan> ?@ hm @run 1+1
04:05:23 <lambdabot> hm 2
04:05:28 <oerjan> ?@ hm ?run 1+1
04:05:30 <lambdabot> hm 2
04:05:32 <oerjan> ah
04:05:48 <oerjan> no distinction
04:05:55 <quintopia> apparently
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04:22:45 <ela2> :)
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04:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> So
04:48:32 <izabera> i have a compiled binary from 1986
04:48:38 <izabera> it's an ancient ksh
04:48:53 <izabera> how do i disassemble it?
04:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> Have you tried googling "1986 ksh disassembler?"
04:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> Or just "ksh disassembler"
04:51:22 <izabera> that yields a surprisingly low amount or results
04:52:02 <izabera> objdump doesn't recognize the format, file says it's "compiled: WE32000 COFF object (demand paged)"
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04:53:38 <izabera> @(#)Version 06/03/86
04:53:38 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
04:53:56 <izabera> sorry lambdy
04:54:01 <oerjan> are you sure it's not 86th of march 2006 hth
04:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> Probably is
04:56:30 <oerjan> finally a haskell platform
04:59:05 <oerjan> oh hm that darn text bug means maybe i should wait a little more
05:00:43 <oerjan> or not
05:01:06 <Sgeo_> Whee! I got a (very small) pull request merged into perl6 docs
05:02:38 * hppavilion[1] worships at the feet of Sgeo_, for he is truly a god
05:17:08 <hppavilion[1]> Going offlline while I switch houses
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05:22:13 <egrep> Yes! The plural of house is hice! :D
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06:25:05 <hppavilion[1]> So
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06:30:41 <shachaf> `wisdom
06:30:43 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
06:31:34 <Walpurgisnacht> What's hackego made in
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06:37:01 <zzo38> Well, I think the "wisdom" program is a shell script
06:37:47 <Walpurgisnacht> entire bot
06:37:55 <Walpurgisnacht> fungot are you a bot
06:37:55 <fungot> Walpurgisnacht: oh right. all of the files
06:38:01 <Walpurgisnacht> I c
06:38:03 <egrep> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src Huh.
06:42:10 <shachaf> `olist 995
06:42:13 <HackEgo> olist 995: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
07:00:00 <Walpurgisnacht> I am checking out qubes
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07:44:02 <hppavilion1> Quite frankly, I am surprised TBFSes are yet to be banned from the wiki
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08:03:16 <Jafet> Some of them would probably be. For example, a variant where the instructions are replaced with names of retail aprodisiacs.
08:04:21 <Jafet> There has been a double standard with regards to hair salons, though.
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10:47:48 <Taneb> Once again I have hit the brick wall that I really do not know Java
10:48:29 <boily> Tanelle!
10:48:35 <Jafet> Learn it! (Ram those bricks in your head.)
10:48:51 <boily> first step to learning java: install eclipse. the rest is automagic.
10:49:14 <Jafet> Automagic, the most deadly school of magic.
10:50:43 <Taneb> boily, unfortunately I am in the position where I need to be making the automagic
10:50:50 <Taneb> (I'm writing an Eclipse plugin)
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10:51:48 <boily> oh.
10:51:49 <boily> uhm.
10:52:08 <boily> Jafellot. are you an automagick expert?
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10:59:20 <Jafet> Eclipse automagic sounds like a place where the sun doesn't shine.
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11:21:01 <mroman> fnord.
11:21:18 <mroman> but yes
11:21:26 <mroman> Install eclipse, gg, surr at 20
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14:44:57 <int-e> meh there's ghc-7.10.2 now and I don't have time for dealing with lambdabot
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15:11:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43675&oldid=43523 * JayCampbell * (-29) /* Interpreter */ link update to esoteric.ga
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18:21:42 <shachaf> oerjan: spot of the olist, governor?
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19:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43676&oldid=43590 * Rdebath * (-1) Sorted by codelength, cells used, instructions run and the code.
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19:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43677&oldid=43676 * Rdebath * (-49379) Added all the best (I think) two-cell non-wrapping sequences, removed all sequences that aren't shorter 'cause they're boring. For every length+cells combination I selected the "best" (fewest steps) and discarded the others. Wrap, soft and non are inde...
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21:07:50 <shachaf> `wisdom
21:07:51 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom/It is now.
21:14:13 <MDude> `wisdom
21:14:14 <HackEgo> water/Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens.
21:14:33 <fizzie> I'm not at the Assembly this year. :/
21:14:44 <fizzie> For some reason they didn't move it from Helsinki to London when I moved.
21:14:54 <fizzie> (It's going on at the moment.)
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21:17:25 <MDude> Then I guess you'll have to be at the Higher Level or the Numerical Machine instead.
21:17:33 <hppavilion[1]> I HAVE HAD
21:17:37 <hppavilion[1]> AN IDEA
21:18:01 <MDude> Should I take cover?
21:18:36 <hppavilion[1]> Probablay
21:18:38 <hppavilion[1]> *Probably
21:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> MY IDEA:
21:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> A language centred around gluing greek/latin roots onto functions to change their effect
21:20:25 <hppavilion[1]> ONE STEP FURTHER:
21:20:37 <hppavilion[1]> You don't glue them onto functions, you make functiosn out of them directly
21:21:24 <singingboyo> so... you're going to write an interpreter for latin?
21:21:30 <singingboyo> good luck with that
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21:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> It would be an interperter for simple latin
21:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> Not full latin
21:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> And it would just be functions based around a few greek and latin roots
21:26:02 <hppavilion[1]> Not the whole language
21:26:09 <hppavilion[1]> Though you bring up an excellent point
21:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just go with the first one, where roots form function modifiers
21:33:23 <hppavilion[1]> so difoo(x) == foo(foo(x)) for example
21:37:49 <mauris> i like this idea, except wouldn't it be ambiguous?
21:38:00 <mauris> what if the user defines difoo
21:38:02 <shachaf> `? hth
21:38:04 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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21:40:43 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: -ify could be casts. like intify, charify
21:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> Yep
21:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> Good idea
21:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: If the user defines difoo they get a syntax error for trying to define a rooted word
21:46:53 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or it calls the defined difoo due to pattern matching
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21:48:17 <hppavilion[1]> Hi boily
21:48:34 <boily> hppavellon[1]!
21:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> We're discussing an Esolang that uses greek/latin/etc roots to modify funtions!
21:48:47 <boily> !æ
21:48:58 <boily> (that was a declinated “!” hth)
21:50:03 <zzo38> When are they going to add all of the features of Tektronix 4014 (and maybe also 4016) into xterm? So far a few features are missing I think
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21:51:05 <boily> hezzo38. can I write a modern program that uses Tektronix specific features?
21:52:31 <zzo38> You probably can, although some of the features are not currently implemented in Xterm.
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21:53:10 <SopaXT> What about a FunctionFuck?
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21:54:01 <SopaXT> e.g DoStuff{+++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-].} =DoStuff
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21:54:50 <hppavilion[1]> SopaXT: We already have Toadskin
21:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> And another one I'm tryint to remember
21:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> pbrain
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22:20:45 <shachaf> copumpkin: yopumpkin
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22:30:31 * oerjan does a spot check for shachaf
22:31:02 <shachaf> oerjan: does that mean the vampire person saw the other person?
22:31:55 <oerjan> um i didn't actually read oots yet
22:32:16 * oerjan reprioritizes
22:32:29 <shachaf> then what are you doing logreading
22:34:16 <oerjan> well i was logreading, then i switched to another comic tab which i tend to open when logreading for stupid layout detection reasons
22:35:20 <oerjan> (it believes i am on mobile when using my usual zoom setting, which i coincidentally change for the logs. saves clicks.)
22:38:14 <shachaf> anyway i have no idea why you think that one person's last birthday is imminent
22:38:42 <oerjan> birthday?
22:39:03 <shachaf> belkar
22:40:38 <oerjan> stupid unorganized oots archive
22:42:06 <shachaf> maybe you're looking for http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html
22:42:07 <shachaf> or something
22:43:13 <oerjan> well almost.
22:43:36 <shachaf> or maybe http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html
22:44:31 <oerjan> there you go.
22:46:03 <shachaf> ok, so i didn't remember the details
22:47:02 <oerjan> no idea when their year ends, anyway, but i think it would be a good time for a heroic sacrifice.
22:47:27 <oerjan> or stupid failure
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22:52:46 <oerjan> oh wait it's winter solstice http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html
22:52:55 <oerjan> yep pretty much the right time.
22:53:17 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
22:53:25 <shachaf> you pay more attention that i do tdh
22:53:36 <oerjan> yw
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23:23:47 <zzo38> Do you know how to make the smallest Sixel representation of a picture? It may help to change the color in the middle of a strip and to allow pixels to overlap each other
23:34:50 <oerjan> <Jafet> Some of them would probably be. For example, a variant where the instructions are replaced with names of retail aprodisiacs. <-- are you entirely sure we don't have one already
23:36:30 <shachaf> I have a book that uses "positive" and "strictly positive" to mean ≥0 and >0 respectively.
23:36:44 <oerjan> hm no one's actually made the Casino Viagra language yet
23:36:48 <shachaf> I think this is probably a better convention, but using it is probably a bad idea.
23:37:08 <oerjan> strictly non-negative hth
23:37:37 <zzo38> I just use "nonnegative" and "positive". But for nonnegative integers they can just be called natural numbers.
23:38:39 <oerjan> that's like refusing to eat meat except for seal cubs
23:39:25 <boily> I think seal cubs are instructional aphrodisiacs.
23:39:42 <oerjan> i'm sure you could convince the chinese of it
23:40:53 <oerjan> hboily
23:41:27 <boily> œrjbonsoian.
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23:52:43 <quintopia> helloily
23:54:39 <boily> qubonsointopiar!
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