00:21:03 <zzo38> How many people using vi/vim is using control and [ instead of escape key because it can be easier to reach while typing other stuff? I am one
00:23:59 <boily> I don't. Caps Lock is gleefully remapped to Escape on every keyboard I touch.
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00:41:20 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
00:41:43 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
00:41:54 <HackEgo> catamorphism/A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
00:42:02 <boily> fungot: oren glumgot catamorphism?
00:42:02 <fungot> boily: yes. that basic level is hardly very useful, though; i tested it
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00:42:44 <boily> `relcome codergeek42
00:42:47 <HackEgo> codergeek42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:43:34 * boily does an interpretative welcome dance
00:43:59 <boily> what brings you here? what's your stance about roast beef?
00:48:07 <boily> my reef's so totally better than yours.
00:50:57 <egrep> boily: Not true! My reef's so good, it elevated itself to a small, floating reef-garden!
00:51:16 <egrep> (Maybe those balloons helped a bit...)
00:52:11 <oerjan> little known fact: the hanging gardens of babylon were also a reef
00:52:48 <boily> hellegrep. uh... are you somebody else I know, or are you the one who is who you are?
00:53:14 <oerjan> i'm sure he's a regular
00:53:48 <boily> well, Koen_ seems to be the nearest match.
00:53:56 * oerjan was expecting a mapole
00:54:18 <boily> I'm oiling and shining it for better ærodynamism.
00:54:28 <egrep> I'm a regular nuisance, according to egrep.
00:55:03 * boily *THWACKS* egrep with a half-reversed doublespin southpaw Hyper Mega Drive mapole
00:55:43 <egrep> boily: I am the one who was who I will have been and will be and am.
00:55:54 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you forgot a ™
00:56:58 <egrep> I lost all of mine a few days ago.
00:57:24 <egrep> My theory is that it was a extreme-stealth mugging that I didn't notice.
00:58:07 * egrep flop to the ground from boily's *THWACK*
01:00:27 * boily pickpockets egrep, exchanges his royal steaks, then moves a pineapple
01:01:07 <oren> Its the weekend!
01:01:23 <lambdabot> CYYZ 010000Z CCA 29014KT 15SM FEW055TCU FEW090 BKN130 BKN270 26/13 A2976 RMK TCU1AC1AC5CI1 TCU TR CI TR CB DIST E SLP076 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
01:01:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 010000Z 23011KT 30SM FEW060 SCT090 BKN140 BKN240 25/16 A2969 RMK SC1AC4AC2CI1 SC TR SLP054 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
01:02:15 <oren> I'm gonna work on my new esolang
01:02:58 <oren> It's the sucessor to scrip7. it will be compiled
01:03:12 * egrep moves the pineapple back
01:03:48 <oren> I was just at the fruit market. I bought bananas but I should have bought ananas
01:06:12 <oren> Effectively most of the basic syntax will be the same as scrip7
01:06:37 <oren> but jumps and conditionals will be made so that they make sense
01:08:54 <oren> also, the g and h registers will be different and the _ pseudo register will be removed
01:10:13 <oren> jumps will simply use labels
01:10:51 <oren> rather than the crazy way it works in scrip7 which was badly implemented[C
01:11:00 <boily> if it's simpler than scrip7, shouldn't it be scrip6?
01:11:24 <oren> I was thinking scr1p7
01:12:50 <oren> eh scrip8 is fine
01:13:20 <oren> it's not entirely simpler, since it adds a preprocessor stage (which does the labels)
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02:08:54 <zzo38> Why does xterm disable national character sets unless you enable it first (by setting the corresponding DEC private mode)?
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02:36:35 * oerjan learns about the third homomorphism theorem
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02:52:14 <oerjan> the font/rendering of this paper is unbearable
03:07:22 <pikhq> Guys, do you think it would be wise for me to try and eat my salary in cheese?
03:07:55 <pikhq> (important fact: this is *free* cheese, at the office)
03:08:10 <pikhq> (important fact #2: this would sadly be 25lbs of cheese a day.)
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03:15:03 <egrep> pikhq: Not particularly.
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03:36:13 <oerjan> it would at least be cheesy
03:43:01 <shachaf> if it's free cheese, it would be ∞ lbs cheese/day hth
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03:45:07 <oren> all the pop songs of 2013 in 10 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEcKDfMS_jY
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03:55:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Well, free-to-me. It has a market rate.
03:55:46 <pikhq> I suspect I'd get fired if I tried to engage in arbitrage against this, though.
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04:03:27 <shachaf> There's some rule about that.
04:09:25 <Jafet> So your employer has instituted an export embargo against the worldwide cheese market?
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04:11:02 <pikhq> Yes, but I'm still free to disrupt the worldwide bit market.
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04:39:29 <shachaf> pikhq: Which team are you on?
04:42:28 <oren> Hmm I can't seem to find code to input WTF-8-CP-1252
04:43:13 <oren> (E.g. inputing UTF-8, allowing surrogate pairs and treating all errors by diverting to CP-1252)
04:43:58 <pikhq> shachaf: It's bizarre. I'm on a team that is currently being spun up, which means that I'm about as clueful as everyone else.
04:44:20 <pikhq> m on dasher SRE, in practice I'm doing random bits and pieces of calendar.
04:44:43 <pikhq> (for no other reason than that I sit next to them)
04:46:11 <oren> Hmm.. I guess I'll roll my own exceptionless UTF-8 decoder
04:47:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you working with mhan?
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04:50:05 <pikhq> Not that I know of.
04:50:15 <oren> I mean is it that hard for people to be "liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you produce"
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04:50:58 <pikhq> Yeah, he's in SFO on Gmail these days.
04:51:07 <zzo38> I do have a new version of utftovlq
04:51:27 <pikhq> I do work with dinabetser though
04:51:32 <shachaf> pikhq: Maybe you're near Gracenotes? He used to be in this channel.
04:52:02 <oerjan> oren: well irssi has that feature...
04:52:22 <oerjan> well not sure about surrogate pairs
04:52:58 <pikhq> I'm yet to meet him, but he's in the same building.
04:53:02 <pikhq> Different floor though.
04:53:06 <zzo38> Which currently doesn't really do anything properly with invalid UTF-8 byte sequences at all, but it does allow surrogates, overlong encodings, and any codepoints up to 36-bits long.
04:53:10 <pikhq> Maybe I'll just randomly show up.
04:53:35 <zzo38> Some even more new version could add option to decode invalid byte sequences somehow too.
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05:13:40 <oren> Actually, for web use it now makes more sense to use CP 1251 as the backup encoding
05:13:55 <oren> Or maybe a mix?
05:14:41 <oren> yah. I'll treat some of the characters as 1252 and some as 1251
05:16:41 <oren> Eh screw it, I already have 1252
05:18:58 <pikhq> Or you could heuristic it.
05:19:40 <pikhq> Oh, for purposes of IRC it's probably best to fall back to either a configured choice or a choice based on the language.
05:20:04 <shachaf> Backup encodings are scow.
05:20:19 <oren> AH! russian text in CP1251 would have consecutive high bytes, whereas text in european languages would mostly have high low hih low
05:21:05 <oren> hence, if a utf-8 invalid sequence is consecutive high bytes, I'll treat it as 1251, else as 1252
05:21:53 <pikhq> There's a few different libs for heuristic detecting a charset based on a language model which might be a better approach.
05:22:01 <oren> shachaf: but they do decrease the amount of bytes needed to hold a given text
05:23:08 <pikhq> Unfortunately, I don't know of any of 'em that are in a super easy to use state. Might be nice to grab Mozilla's code and port it to C or somethin'.
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05:28:57 <zzo38> For IRC you could have just set based on what screen you are on, if you have multiple screen, or based on what channel, etc
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07:06:09 <oren> BLAH! ncurses is mangling my utf-8
07:10:09 <oren> screw this. back to termios
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12:09:03 <mauris> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner_type_system#Syntax <-- isn't let x=e1 in e2 just (\x.e2)e1
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14:28:50 <Jafet> > let f = \x->x in (f 1, f "mauris")
14:29:05 <Jafet> > (\f-> (f 1, f "mauris")) (\x->x)
14:29:06 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from the literal ‘1’
14:29:06 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘1’
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14:29:55 <Jafet> (... or scroll down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley–Milner_type_system#Let-polymorphism)
14:33:57 <Melvar> ( (\f : {a : Type} -> a -> a => (f 1, f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:34:03 <idris-bot> \a1 => \x => x is not a numeric type
14:35:18 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> a -> a) => (f 1, f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:35:18 <idris-bot> \a1 => \x => x is not a numeric type
14:35:49 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> a -> a) => (f (the Integer 1), f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:38:37 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> Show a => a -> a) => (f (the Integer 1), f "foo")) (\x => x)
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16:14:18 <Jafet> Portmanteau of the day: http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/cnfigsys/switchar.htm
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16:49:54 <oren> I'm writing my own ncurses-alternative
16:50:14 <oren> I didn't mean to, it just happened
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16:58:30 <oren> ncurses doesn't handle utf-8 properly, and I'm too lazy to diagnose the issue, so I wrote my own which handles it.
16:58:44 <oren> well, handles it my not handling it
16:59:23 <Melvar> So it’s going to bulge out the right sides of things if there are wide chars?
16:59:48 <oren> nah, see all wide chars are at least 2 bytes in utf-8
17:00:29 <oren> so the only problem will be things being too short
17:01:02 <Melvar> What was the original problem again?
17:01:27 <oren> utf8 is corrupted when I pass it to addstr
17:02:22 <oren> it comes out as a bunch of ?
17:03:20 <Melvar> And you’re using a UTF-8 locale?
17:04:14 <Melvar> Hm. Well, not gonna try to remotely diagnose this, so carry on I guess …
17:04:56 <oren> another issue I've now solved is that ncurses' handling of colors is stupid
17:06:02 <oren> I just have a setcolors(int,int) which takes the FG and BG colors from 0 to 20
17:07:56 <oren> tbf ncurses is easier than using termios and ANSI sequences directly
17:09:17 <oren> now I'm working on getting sigwinch to handle correctly
17:13:04 <oren> Ok, cutting a UTF-8 character in half to make the string fit makes it have a ?? but at least the whole thing isn't being corrupter
17:13:42 <oren> thank you, UTF-8 self-synchronization
17:18:07 <oren> but this method would have worked a lot better for an EUC-XX encoding
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18:08:00 <FreeFull> oren: What if people want to use 256-colour terminals?
18:10:22 <zzo38> Unicode is especially terrible for terminal encodings
18:11:17 <FreeFull> I know terminals completely ignore the Right To Left override character
18:12:06 <zzo38> To change text direction should be a escape sequence if anything
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18:13:51 <Melvar> Then that would suddenly only work in terminals, instead of in everything that implements a standards-compliant text layout algorithm.
18:14:31 <Melvar> There is at least one terminal that does implement bidi, it was one of the mac ones.
18:15:04 <zzo38> You should not use Unicode for terminals. For typesetting it can work but all of these stuff should be implemented in the font metric file instead; the font metric file decides what the nicode Right-to-left override character does.
18:16:47 <zzo38> Font metric file format used can support include files, so that you can have include files for various versions of Unicode. If the font is not Unicode, then you don't include any of them.
18:16:58 <Melvar> That would essentially require the font metric file to be able to execute arbitrary code inside your layout engine.
18:18:16 <zzo38> No, it is a kind of VM code, not native code, and it is a limited VM code for this purpose only.
18:19:17 <zzo38> Command can include registers, ligatures, kerning, subroutine calls, and vertical adjustments.
18:19:45 <zzo38> (It does not have to support loops)
18:20:13 <Melvar> Also, how would I avoid unicode in my terminal? No reasonable amount of text consists only of ASCII …
18:21:08 <zzo38> What is "reasonable amount of text" here?
18:22:55 <Melvar> That sentence, if you had cared to type it correctly.
18:24:18 <zzo38> No you should use only ASCII
18:24:23 <zzo38> It is simpler and more sensible.
18:25:23 <Melvar> I’m afraid my language doesn’t fit inside it either.
18:25:25 <oren> For one of my unfinished games I stored Greek and Cyrillic text as ASCII then printed it with a special font
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18:26:02 <zzo38> oren: Well, it is one way. I tend to just use the PC character set, so there may be some Greek letters but no Cyrillic
18:26:47 <oren> Well my point is that's sort of like your font metrics approach.
18:27:25 <oren> the font had a glyph for a that was an alpha, a glyph for b as beta and so on
18:28:29 <zzo38> Yes, OK, in portable terminals I can use VT100 instead of PC characters
18:28:54 <zzo38> In the VT100 you might have two fonts, so one is used for line drawing and so on.
18:29:26 <zzo38> Although in the most recent versions of xterm you can even draw pictures
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18:34:34 <oren> So my program has puttoscreen(X,Y,"[ari[a",CYRILLIC); and it writes царица to the screen
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18:39:57 <oren> My game didn't have any arabic. It had some chinese as images.
18:42:59 <oren> The font for Cyrillic somewhat resembled KOI7
18:56:41 <FreeFull> What if you're making a text editor?
18:57:02 <FreeFull> And you don't really have a standard way to get graphics in terminals right now
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18:57:50 <myname> oren: what is this game about?
19:06:06 <zzo38> You get graphics in terminals using Sixel format
19:06:50 <zzo38> (Still not all terminals will support it, but some VT terminals did and xterm does, although xterm supports Tektronix graphics as well.)
19:08:37 <fizzie> I used to have a VT510, I think it didn't support the fancy graphics stuff (that being the main difference between VT510 and VT520).
19:08:44 <FreeFull> I don't think libvte terminals support sixels
19:09:01 <fizzie> After it caught fire, it no longer supported even text.
19:09:14 <FreeFull> Sixels have limited bit depth too, because they were originally designed for line printers
19:15:30 <FreeFull> xterm doesn't display sixels without the --enable-sixel-graphics option
19:20:33 <FreeFull> I can't figure out how to make xterm display sixels
19:21:21 <FreeFull> Oh, it has to be compiled with sixel support
19:22:12 <oren> just use a font that supports braille
19:26:04 <oren> meh, it's DWIT
19:26:57 <oren> http://thedailywtf.com/articles/FrontAhead-Design
19:35:41 <FreeFull> Melvar: https://i.imgur.com/44lP0FH.png
19:35:46 <FreeFull> That's what it looks like in my terminal
19:37:34 <FreeFull> Hmm, it's the fault of bitstream vera sans mono, it seems
19:37:40 <FreeFull> It displays the empty spaces as empty circles
19:37:46 <FreeFull> Which looks bad at small font sizes
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19:39:57 <Melvar> FreeFull: It comes out similarly on my terminal except slightly better because maybe my font size is a bit bigger? It seems to pick FreeMono for me.
19:40:11 <FreeFull> Oh, DejaVu Sans Mono does the same thing
19:40:46 <Melvar> FreeFull: I’m pretty sure DejaVu doesn’t have them, some other font gets picked to fill in.
19:40:56 <FreeFull> Melvar: The problem is that I have DejaVu Sans Mono set as my font, and it provides its own symbols for those, which look bad
19:41:17 <FreeFull> Oh, seems DejaVu Sans Mono doesn't have them
19:41:27 <FreeFull> And it's using the FreeMono ones
19:41:48 <Melvar> Ah, indeed, DejaVu Sans non-mono does have its own.
19:42:31 <zzo38> I am just using the standard "fixed" bitmap font
19:42:53 <FreeFull> I'm going to see which package provides FreeMono and remove it
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19:44:35 <tswett> > let the⠀news = 3 in the⠀news
19:44:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘the’Not in scope: ‘news’
19:44:54 <tswett> > let the news = 3 in the []
19:45:47 <HackEgo> [U+2800 BRAILLE PATTERN BLANK]
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19:47:41 <Melvar> > let the⠀news = 3 in some⠀words
19:47:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Alternative f0) arising from a use of ‘some’
19:47:43 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
19:48:06 <Melvar> > let the⠀news = 3 in any⠀words
19:48:08 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Foldable t0) arising from a use of ‘any’
19:48:08 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
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20:59:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43678&oldid=43677 * Rdebath * (-268) These eight wrappers are the same length as very simple two cell wrappers. I see no point keeping them.
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21:12:08 <zzo38> Is there a resource in xterm that causes it to send the contents of that resource to itself when it starts or is reset? Such a thing can be used to change some settings that aren't available with other resources.
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21:14:58 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
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22:38:46 <lambdabot> CYUL 012237Z 29013G18KT 15SM -SHRA FEW007 FEW025CB BKN050 BKN075 19/16 A2975 RMK SF1CB2SC4AC1 SF TR PRESRR SLP073 DENSITY ALT 800FT
22:46:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 012220Z VRB02KT CAVOK 10/06 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 07004KT
22:48:32 <boily> it's not the size that counts, it's the relative humidity.
22:50:10 <oerjan> i guess today was indeed relatively dry
22:50:20 <oerjan> also it started out warmer
22:52:19 <oren> I need a command to eliminate duplicates in my bash history
22:53:27 <boily> sort .bash_history | uniq >bash_history_copy && mv bash_history_copy .bash_history
22:54:48 <oerjan> oren: include ignoredups or erasedups in the HISTCONTROL variable hth
23:00:39 <oren> boilty: that worked
23:00:58 <oerjan> there should be a version of uniq that doesn't require sorting
23:01:27 <oerjan> oren: my suggestion is for keeping it that way hth
23:01:54 <oren> although now my history is in alphabetical order from bash --version to xxd
23:02:21 <oerjan> as i said, there should have been a uniq version that worked without sorting
23:02:55 <oren> hmm what would be an efficieant algorithm for that?
23:03:32 <oerjan> with shell, probably you could use nl first to prepend line numbers
23:03:43 <oren> ah yeah that would work
23:04:10 <oerjan> and then whatever options to sort and uniq make them ignore the line numbers, and then a sort on the line numbers at the end
23:10:16 <boily> oretn: it's a known side-effect that sorting sorts data.
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23:58:39 <boily> damned Prera. that thing is unwashable.