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00:09:59 <oerjan> the one time i forgot a pen in the laundry went surprisingly well. it even wrote afterward.
00:10:23 <oerjan> i have, however, no intention of repeating such a mistake.
00:11:31 <oerjan> well i _think_ it wrote. my memory is a little vague.
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00:18:15 <oren> oil based ballpoint probably would not cuase problems in the laundry
00:24:17 * boily keeps his pens away from his washing machine and oerjan
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00:37:36 <zzo38> The DEC technical character set doesn't seem to work in this version of xterm
00:39:40 <boily> that's one bigass sum symbol... http://www.vt100.net/charsets/dec-technical-vt420-green.png
00:41:02 <boily> if I want to display nonunicode characters in a terminal, are there any magical escape sequences for that?
00:41:15 <ais523> boily: yes, but it depends on what you mean by "nonunicode"
00:41:20 <ais523> boily: what encoding are they in?
00:43:58 <zzo38> I want to use a different kind of character set that you can select subsets of, which can include all characters in: PC character set, all DEC character sets, Commodore 64, Apple MouseText, up to 256 user-defined characters, and probably also some more.
00:44:35 <ais523> zzo38: I think all those are in Unicode?
00:44:57 <zzo38> No, not all of them are.
00:45:08 <zzo38> Neither is Infocom character graphics, the other one I missed
00:45:33 <zzo38> Some characters from some of these sets are, including the entire PC character set, but not all of the others
00:45:48 <ais523> the "up to 256 user-defined characters" are
00:45:54 <boily> ais523: anything outside of unicode. mainly obscure platform-specific glyphs.
00:46:11 <boily> incidentally, probably what zzo38 is looking for at.
00:46:17 <ais523> there aren't any /standard/ codes for that because such a thing would have to be highly nonstandard
00:46:42 <boily> hmm... otoh, can I address individual pixels in a modern terminal and plot arbitrary data in it?
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00:47:06 <ais523> boily: unless it's xterm, no
00:47:08 <zzo38> boily: You can use Sixel, but you have to start at a tile
00:47:20 <ais523> xterm can emulate more than one terminal, and one of them is graphical
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00:47:31 <ais523> but it has codes that are nothing like a vt100
00:47:40 <boily> scow. too lazy to launch xterm.
00:48:03 <zzo38> Yes, it has codes from later DEC terminals as well, as well as several of its own codes.
00:49:47 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
00:54:22 <Sgeo> Left "hi" is Either String a
00:54:31 <Sgeo> So... uh... Num a implies having a zero?
00:55:09 <oerjan> also, defaulting to Integer
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00:55:27 <boily> not having anything implies having a nothing.
00:56:23 <boily> LA LA LA CAN'T SEE ANYTHING LA LA LA ♪
00:58:17 <oerjan> > foldr (-) 0 (Just 1)
01:00:59 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
01:01:46 <oerjan> basically, most of the list functions got generalized
01:02:50 <boily> which is nice. but also stuff.
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04:34:28 <pikhq> Hoorah, I have met shachaf in meatspacde.
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04:36:55 <oerjan> does he look like his SO profile picture
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04:37:26 <oerjan> shachaf: this is outrageous!
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05:40:33 <Sgeo> Attempting to watch a TOS episode
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05:40:39 <Sgeo> The effects are so... bad
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05:42:08 <pikhq> By the standards of the day they were quite good.
05:42:21 <pikhq> Wait til you see contemporary Dr Who episodes.
05:44:47 <Sgeo> I'm only watching this episode because I've seen multiple references to it and suggestions that it's really good
05:46:23 <Sgeo> So I'm not sure what Dr Who episodes would be contemporary
05:54:19 <Sgeo> And there's some stutter like the Rift gets if fps is too low
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06:03:45 <Sgeo> Oh crap I recognize this name from fanfiction :(
06:05:36 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I've said that even if it wasn't me now you know...
06:07:15 <Sgeo> The name of a character in this episode
06:07:48 <Sgeo> Also predicting atomic power would require more than "speculation" if you're not a physicist, so guessing "speculation" is a bad guess
06:09:01 <Sgeo> Sorry for any spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet
06:10:50 <Sgeo> Star Trek The Original Series "City on the Edge of Forever"
06:10:57 <Sgeo> And now I will stop looking at this channel
06:15:46 <Sgeo> What's with "6" in front of lyrics in the closed captions?
06:20:39 <shachaf> oerjan: pikhq must be confused.
06:21:27 <shachaf> i look a lot more like that picture than you do like http://stackoverflow.com/users/1088108/%C3%98rjan-johansen , i'm sure
06:21:41 <shachaf> and anyway who's to confirm i even met pikhq
06:24:02 <oerjan> clearly pikhq must have met an imposter, then
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09:41:35 <b_jonas> another stupid webpage that gives only some stupid unusable javascript map for searching their shops, instead of a usable LIST
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10:03:18 <b_jonas> mroman: ok wait, let me explain. FooCorp is a very big faceless corporation that not only has a webpage, but also lots of real life buildings where clients can walk in and use their services.
10:04:01 <b_jonas> As there's many such buildings, even within Budapest, I want to know which one to go to. This depends on the location, the opening hours, the services available there, and some other stuff.
10:04:45 <b_jonas> FooCorp should put a list of their buildings on there homepage, in plain HTML format, giving the address, opening hour, and list of services, for each building.
10:05:44 <b_jonas> They don't do that. Instead they have some unusable fancy combined server side and javascript search page, where you first have to specify in the search form which district you want shops in (so you can't just list all, but have to try all 20 possibilities), and then give some crazy javascript map page that I can't use, instead of a list of matches.
10:05:52 <b_jonas> This is true for at least two values of FooCorp.
10:06:29 <b_jonas> Their homepage is so unusable that I have to ask about the sites on phone or in person.
10:08:31 <mroman> It'd be easier to grep a text file .
10:08:49 <b_jonas> Yes, at least as an alternative.
10:11:15 <b_jonas> For at least one value of FooCorp, I had actually asked by phone, and then just found out that they gave an incorrect answer (unless it's changed recently).
10:12:46 <b_jonas> For another value of FooCorp, I'm not sure what to call by phone, because they don't generally do business by phone, and don't seem to have a general information phone line as far as I'm aware (maybe they do, but I can't find that from their homepage).
10:13:55 <b_jonas> And when I said "faceless", I mean the individual workers I meet often don't know more than what's necessary for their job, so in person they usually can't tell me about the other sites.
10:15:39 <b_jonas> I don't know whether if I call them by phone they have to use the same stupid javascript thingy (which however may actually work slightly better on their work machines) or they have something better.
10:15:59 <b_jonas> This may depend on the value of FooCorp and my question.
10:19:04 <b_jonas> Information like this changes quickly enough that lists made by third parties are usually obsolate.
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13:26:11 <HackEgo> copumpkin/copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
13:27:22 <boily> @tell copumpkin come back here you vile cocucurbitaceæ!
13:30:25 <HackEgo> justice/Justice is just behavior or treatment.
13:30:44 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/output
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15:23:23 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
15:23:24 <tswett> 01:00:02: <zzo38> I don't know. There's a program on the different commands and a constant thing that aren't the same as a human function that is the same as a language to get a specific article.
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15:31:30 <fizzie> fungot: Wisdom from the n-gram synthesis?
15:31:30 <fungot> fizzie: for example, write a glass interpreter in c. code has no memory model. all models are wrong.
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15:45:32 <b_jonas> I just learnt that M:tG isn't the only game with a flaming horse. There's a flaming horse pokémon too.
15:52:19 <b_jonas> I guess fire, ice, and water versions of every popular animal exists in fiction
15:54:29 <b_jonas> also dire and celestial and giant versions, plus miniature versions of every animal that isn't already small or smaller
16:02:45 <oren> Wait wtf?! unicode includes a ㋼ but no circled ン?
16:03:12 <oren> who even uses a ヰ let alone a circled one?!?!
16:05:00 <b_jonas> how are Pokémons in different generation Pokémon games so similar?
16:05:49 <b_jonas> oren: why would you need a circled n?
16:06:18 <b_jonas> aren't these for bullet headings or things like that?
16:06:39 <oren> I though they were for trademarks?
16:07:26 <oren> Like some store might but each kana of their name in a circle?
16:08:40 <b_jonas> oren: um... I don't see how that would work. you could use a circled single kana as a trade mark, but it would be a logo, not a character.
16:09:30 <b_jonas> I don't see why you'd do it for every character in a name though, unless you somehow associate a different product with each of them, like one for coke, one for fruit juice, one for ginger ale, one for tonic
16:11:46 <oren> One of the first results searching for ㋐ is a japanese forum where someone is asking why the character exists
16:12:17 <b_jonas> I can see that, but I still don't see why you'd need a circled n character
16:12:36 <oren> For completeness
16:13:12 <oren> If you're going to have wi, which isn't even used much anymore, you should have n, which is.
16:13:57 <b_jonas> wi isn't used in words, but it's still known to exist in the series of kana, so I imagine someone might use it if he starts numbering passages with letters
16:14:39 <b_jonas> eg. in a hungarian book or law, if points are marked with letters of the alphabet starting with a, b, c; it will use "q" eventually in a long enough list even though "q" doesn't usually appear in Hungarian words
16:14:55 <oren> that makes sense
16:15:31 <b_jonas> I don't know whether a list marked with kana would use wi, and it may depend
16:16:57 <b_jonas> btw, these lists get horribly inconsistent when they need just a few more items than there are letters in the alphabet
16:17:33 <b_jonas> most of the time they're used only when they need between 2 and about 13 items only
16:18:53 <oren> For lists in English texts I've seen numbers, letters, roman numbers, lowercase roman numbers, and in one case greek letters.
16:20:15 <oren> I think Excel goes A...Z,AA,AB,...AZ,BA
16:22:17 <oren> What numbering schemes does HTML support?
16:23:09 <b_jonas> oren: quite a few, check the css documents
16:24:02 <oren> the AA thing apparently works with type="a"
16:24:25 <b_jonas> oren: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/list-style-type
16:26:06 <b_jonas> apparently css even allows you to create new list numbering styles
16:26:10 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-counter-styles-3/#counter-style
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16:29:09 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-counter-styles-3/#predefined-counters lists the predefined styles
16:35:15 <b_jonas> apparently the CSS standard draft guys are perfectionists
16:47:21 <oren> counter-style cjk-earthly-branch
16:50:02 <oren> OH! they didn't include circled ン because ン doesn't appear in the iroha
16:52:43 <oren> and thus when things are numbered by the iroha you don't need it
16:56:42 <b_jonas> oren: why is ン considered a "real" kana in first place when ー isn't?
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17:04:33 <oren> b_jonas: not sure
17:07:41 <oren> Well I mean it was introduced later than the other kana.
17:12:05 <oren> but then, the letters w and v are newer
17:13:17 <oren> is å counted as a letter?
17:13:50 <b_jonas> oren: it's certainly a letter, the question is whether it's considered an accented version of a or a separate letter
17:14:11 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure I care about those distinctions
17:14:26 <b_jonas> it's like when people discuss which digraphs count as letters
17:14:49 <b_jonas> the actually relevant points are how stuff are sorted in which traditional alphabetic order,
17:15:00 <b_jonas> and there's like a separate order per language, or sometimes two or three of them,
17:15:08 <b_jonas> plus what letters count as the same in crossword puzzles.
17:15:27 <oren> But I guess the question is if Excel had been invented in Norway would å be a column head?
17:15:50 <b_jonas> oren: oh, there's that too, yes
17:16:13 <b_jonas> oren: I'm quite sure that ö is never used in any of the listings for Hungarian,
17:16:32 <b_jonas> though a few use "sz" or "zs" or other digraphs, but those are rare too, they mostly come up when they run out of letters
17:16:52 <b_jonas> the most important actual variation is actually whether they include only "i" or only "j" or both "i" and "j"
17:17:01 <b_jonas> there are conflicting traditions on that
17:18:06 <b_jonas> there's also some variations on how strings with spaces are sorted
17:20:06 <b_jonas> luckily how strings without spaces are sorted is quite fixed in Hungarian, there's only one order
17:20:39 <b_jonas> (technically, how dzs is sorted may have changed around the 80s when they turned it officially to a letter, but I don't think that ever comes up as a difference in any list of real strings)
17:21:31 <b_jonas> (you'd basically need a string that can be continued with both "dzs" and "dzú" or something, and "dz" is a pretty rare letter in the first place)
17:21:52 <mauris> is "dzs" one square in a crossword puzzle
17:24:08 <b_jonas> mauris: no. even "sz" is two squares
17:24:12 <b_jonas> crosswords have their own crazy rules
17:24:23 <b_jonas> however, "sz" is one square in Scrabble
17:26:07 <b_jonas> where crosswords differ is whether some vowels are allowed to be considered the same (so the horizontal word can contain one vowel but the vertical word a different one), and I think it's sort of an implementation quality thing in crosswords, as in, a crossword is "better" if it considers each 14 vowels different
17:32:24 <Melvar> In German, crosswords universally require äöüß to be written as ae, oe, ue, ss.
17:33:01 <b_jonas> Melvar: wow, I didn't know that
17:33:08 <b_jonas> I wouldn't have guessed about ae oe ue
17:33:22 <b_jonas> Writing ß as ss makes sense of course
17:33:49 <b_jonas> the only time vowels are written as two vowels are very old telegram/telex messages.
17:38:16 <Melvar> < b_jonas> how are Pokémons in different generation Pokémon games so similar? – Could you be more specific? Do you mean the ones that obviously occupy similar ecological niches in different regions?
17:39:31 <Melvar> (And similar niches regarding players and npcs.)
17:40:58 <b_jonas> Melvar: no, I mean most pokémons from generation 1 pokémon seem to exist in all later generations with the same name and type and generally the same proeprties or very similar properties
17:42:01 <b_jonas> despite that there's been decades of the consoles and games improving tech wise
17:42:17 <Melvar> Oh. They’re the same ones. AFAIK Pokémon have never been removed from the national dex, only added.
17:43:20 <Melvar> I’m not sure what you mean by why there. It’s all the same world, canonically.
17:43:24 <oren> well some have been given new types
17:43:32 <b_jonas> the same world, so the pokémons exist in the story
17:43:51 <b_jonas> the strange part is that they're all (or most of them) still in the game and catchable and playable
17:43:58 <oren> electrode was pure electric in earlier games and became electric/steel
17:44:09 <b_jonas> and the properties that matter in play, such as moves or how they evolve, are very similar too
17:44:16 <Melvar> oren: You’re thinking of the magnemite line, not electrode.
17:45:12 <oren> I mostly stopped playing after silver. (I beat a few of the newer games, but stopped playing after I beat them)
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17:45:29 <Melvar> b_jonas: Generally they keep getting new moves as moves are added, but they generally keep being able to learn all the ones they could in earlier generations.
17:45:44 <Melvar> I’m just not sure what you find strange about it.
17:46:27 <b_jonas> Melvar: dunno, are there any other series of games where the games are two decades apart, and have actually using two decades newer technology, but are so similar to each other?
17:47:08 <oren> Hmmm... what about the handheld 2D Zelda games
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17:47:45 <oren> compare the gameplay of Links awakening to misih cap
17:48:07 <b_jonas> Well, I can think of one example, tetris games are somewhat similar until you start to do crazy tricks
17:48:57 <oren> Hmm... the PC Touhou series started in 2002
17:49:04 <oren> So that's one decade
17:49:16 <Melvar> There are a bunch of subtleties with mechanics being added and changed that make the later games play somewhat differently in some respects. So matchups might have quite different results.
17:49:36 <oren> and no characters have been removed from the Touhou universe
17:49:51 <oren> (since the PC era anyway)
17:50:08 <b_jonas> well, some tetris games. not all.
17:50:55 <Melvar> b_jonas: If you have all the right hardware and software versions and stuff, you can probably still transfer a third-generation pokemon over all the way to the sixth. Also between the first and second, but between second and third there is no connectivity.
17:52:17 <oren> Street Fighter! AFAIK most characters from the original are in the most recent one
17:52:28 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes, that makes it even more amazing.
17:52:45 <b_jonas> oren: oh true, there's Mortal Kombat too
17:52:58 <b_jonas> which has lots of common characters
17:53:11 <b_jonas> some characters are removed in some later games, but still
17:54:19 <Melvar> b_jonas: Basically, most of the times they were like “transfer pokémon from the previous generation!” So necessarily everything needed to support the previous stuff.
17:56:03 <b_jonas> M:tG is sort of an example, with two decades of support of strange old cards on paper, and one decade in video games
17:57:19 <Melvar> Whether that’s the actual reason, I don’t know. It may well also have been a highly successful strategy to lure people from one generation to the next.
17:57:44 <Melvar> Also there’s the remakes.
17:58:32 <oren> Nintendo knows that I will buy a game over and over again
17:58:32 <b_jonas> wait, Panglacial Wurm is from Coldsnap?
17:58:43 <Melvar> (Gen 3 included remakes of the main Gen 1 games, Gen 4 of Gen 2, Gen 6 of Gen 3.)
17:58:44 <b_jonas> I thought it was an old card
17:58:52 <b_jonas> which would explain why it has such a strange ability
17:59:02 <b_jonas> but it's a new one, printed _knowing_ it's a strange ability
17:59:35 <b_jonas> did that strange mechanic exist on an older card?
17:59:43 * Melvar is currently playing a Gen 3 pokémon game … emulated on his phone.
18:00:10 <oren> I don't feel guilty emulating nintendo games that I've bought three times
18:00:31 <pikhq> To be sure, shachaf looks more like SO shachaf than oerjan looks like SO oerjan, I'm sure.
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18:05:00 <oren> I'm not on StackOverflow
18:05:24 <oren> I should put a picture of myself on my website...
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18:18:51 <zzo38> Conservapedia says that Wikipedia's article about Riemann "contains little discussion of Riemann's faith and tries to downplay his fundamentalism as though it were merely a passing interest as a teenager". I have looked; it seems to contain a reasonable amount of discussion to me, and the other criticisms Conservapedia makes are also invalid, although perhaps this information could be made easier to find; currently information about his religious be
18:28:35 <zzo38> Conservapedia also seems to misunderstand what the word "mythology" even means.
18:39:07 <b_jonas> Hmm, I'm actually using two pinned windows now. Maybe I should reinstate the keyboard shortcut for pinning a window when I rework my window manager configuration.
18:39:13 <b_jonas> I didn't use to use pinned windows much
18:46:27 <zzo38> What window manager is that?
18:47:00 <b_jonas> pinned means it stays on the screen when I switch between "virtual desktops"
18:48:17 <b_jonas> and I'll want to rework the window manager configuration a bit anyway, though I won't change anything really significant, but I want to set it up so I can control two nested instances (such as inside and outside vnc) so there's two variations of the wm config with the more important keyboard shortcuts duplicated in some consistent manner (eg. with or without shift)
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18:57:56 <zzo38> I also don't know of other cards with Panglacial Wurm's special ability
18:59:26 <zzo38> It does mean you can use mana abilities while searching your library; see which cases it helps with
19:00:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, and I was wondering if a mana ability could somehow cause to end your turn during searching your library, and what would happen then with the rest of the effects on the spell you're resolving
19:00:40 <b_jonas> eg. at what step would you put the land you searched for into play
19:01:00 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too, but I don't know of any mana abilities that end your turn immediately
19:01:05 <b_jonas> or whether there's some multiplayer shenenigans
19:01:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: not immediately, but as some multi-step consequence of say sacrificing permanents
19:01:42 <b_jonas> but it's hard because most of the tricky things don't happen immediately, but only as triggers or state-based effects
19:01:59 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought.
19:02:19 <b_jonas> the rulings mention that you can mill your library while searching using Panglacial
19:02:24 <zzo38> But it can be of interest if a puzzle is made up that involves this using the mana abilities while searching your library.
19:03:15 <zzo38> Yes, you can know what the top card of your library is and use this to determine whether or not you want to discard it due to Millikin
19:03:46 <b_jonas> sure, but that's not really breaking anything
19:03:52 <b_jonas> there are easier ways to know what's in your library
19:04:47 <b_jonas> I was wondering if there's some way to search your library but not shuffle afterwards, but it's probably both impossible and wouldn't be interesting, because the rules don't actually permit you to rearrange your library when searching technically
19:04:58 <zzo38> Yes, although it is still one way, such as if that is all you have available
19:05:20 <b_jonas> (except that you can lose the game, but then your library won't be interesting anymore)_
19:08:16 <b_jonas> Unrelated to Panglacial, there's one rules thing that I don't understand.
19:09:33 <b_jonas> There are actions in the rules that are supposed to happen "at the same time", and this can involve putting multiple cards onto the battlefield, and that happens fast enough that the Ally trigger on each of them happens.
19:10:05 <b_jonas> But consider Land Equilibrium. This has a replacement ability that can replace putting a card onto the battlefield with two events that aren't supposed to happen at the same time.
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19:10:20 <b_jonas> What happens when Land Equilibrium replaces putting one of multiple cards onto the battlefield?
19:10:34 <b_jonas> In what order and speed do the events happen then?
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19:11:27 <zzo38> I don't know, maybe if you read the rules you can figure out
19:11:33 <b_jonas> Uh, irc server shut down. How much did I get through?
19:11:40 <b_jonas> What happens when Land Equilibrium replaces putting one of multiple cards onto the battlefield?
19:11:46 <b_jonas> In what order and speed do the events happen then?
19:12:01 <b_jonas> Obviously I don't believe that "at the same time" actually means at the same time, it's just fast enough that some things aren't checked in between by the rules.
19:12:16 <b_jonas> But still, I don't know what happens with a replace like this, and I haven't seen a relevant rule.
19:12:52 <b_jonas> Luckily such replacement effects seem to be rare.
19:13:14 <b_jonas> Sheltered Valley has another one.
19:13:37 <b_jonas> But Land Equilibrium is probably the best.
19:15:39 <zzo38> There is one of my own card that has a mana ability that counters all spells with split-second ability
19:17:52 <b_jonas> which card is that? I don't see it in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
19:18:07 <b_jonas> and can it counter a spell during paying its cost?
19:20:26 <zzo38> It is a mana ability, so it can work even while spells with split-second are on the stack, and when you can use mana abilities (such as with Panglacial Wurm)
19:20:57 <zzo38> It is "Stone of Interruption"
19:22:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: great, I think you can use that during paying for a Stone of Interruption that you started to cast
19:23:24 <b_jonas> Is it also possible to somehow use it to counter a split second spell while it's resolving? I don't remember what split second spells there are
19:23:31 <zzo38> I also have "Kjugobe's Psychic Control" which grants another spell a split second ability
19:24:51 <zzo38> Also I think you can still face morph cards when spells with split second are on the stack
19:25:00 <b_jonas> I was thinking of an instant with "Turn target spell face down.", let's call this Pongify Spell. How much would that break the rules, now that we can manifest sorceries?
19:26:24 <b_jonas> wow, you've made a lot of new cards. I'll have to look at them later.
19:26:27 <zzo38> I don't quite know, although I did make a card that has "Manifest target spell"
19:27:11 <b_jonas> What? "Manifest target spell"? what does that do if that spell isn't a card (but a copy of a spell)?
19:28:18 <zzo38> I don't know, although I have made up a rule that makes spells that aren't represented as cards to come into play as tokens
19:28:50 <zzo38> Possibly studying the other rules, can figure out more
19:28:51 <oren> UVC, or Unicode Vernacular C, is a dialect of C in which certain unicode characters may be used in place of certain sequences of ASCII characters.
19:30:12 <b_jonas> Spells that come into play as tokens, such as when they resolve? Now that's scary.
19:30:53 <zzo38> Yes, such as if you make a copy of an enchantment spell or creature spell or whatever
19:31:00 <b_jonas> That'd need a careful modification of that tricky rule that gives all the exceptions of when an effect can follow an object moving through zones.
19:31:06 <oren> for example, ≥ ≤ and ≡ may be used instead of <= >= == respectively
19:31:43 <b_jonas> oren: there seems to be something like that for Haskell, used in all kinds of articles printing haskell code
19:32:07 <b_jonas> I don't think I've seen it with C yet
19:33:42 <b_jonas> eg. for haskell, there are characters representing each of ++ -> <- ::
19:33:56 <b_jonas> and more symbol combinations that I don't remember right now
19:38:32 <oren> for completeness for C++, we need characters for >= <= == != << >> ++ -- // /* */ && || :: ->
19:44:31 <b_jonas> oren: and possibly for /= *= += -= <<= >>= &= ^= |=
19:44:48 <b_jonas> also possibly for [[ and ]] which aren't really digraphs
19:45:26 <b_jonas> also definitely for -> .* ->*
19:47:25 <oren> for logical and and or ∧ ∨ would make sense
19:47:36 <b_jonas> oren: I wouldn't like that, no
19:48:02 <oren> well obviously we would not use ^ for that
19:48:12 <b_jonas> apparently the better convention is to use & | circledplus for bitwise ops
19:48:30 <b_jonas> and forget abut vee and wedge in that context
19:49:01 <b_jonas> I actually have that in my font
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21:00:03 <zzo38> Accept = backspace / or / backspace = as an alternative to != then
21:06:06 <tswett> Ooh, we're talking about Magic.
21:07:13 <tswett> Are spell permanents, and spell cards in hand, actually spells?
21:07:26 <zzo38> Only on the stack count as spells
21:07:59 <zzo38> When you target a spell, you can only target a spell on the stack.
21:08:45 <tswett> So "turn target spell face down" would necessarily act on a spell on the stack.
21:12:35 <tswett> Then the rules say it would "have no characteristics other than those listed by" the thing that let you turn it face down. So if the instant just said to turn it face down, it would end up with no characteristics at all.
21:13:17 <b_jonas> tswett: what zzo38 says, except note that "spell" is used in a different meaning in the phrase "spell type".
21:13:45 <b_jonas> tswett: what? wouldn't it still be a 2/2 creature
21:14:03 <zzo38> I thought it might be a 2/2 creature with a mana cost of {3} and nothing else
21:14:05 <b_jonas> maybe not while on the stack
21:14:12 <tswett> b_jonas: that only applies to permanents turned face down, not spells.
21:14:23 <zzo38> (Although you don't have to pay the mana cost in this case anyways)
21:14:33 <tswett> Also, apparently if a permanent is turned face down, it has no mana cost.
21:14:42 <b_jonas> oh wait, does Nix works on a face down spell?
21:14:48 <b_jonas> one cast with morph specifically?
21:14:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would think it works on any spell cast without paying any mana.
21:15:00 <b_jonas> Nix doesn't work like that
21:15:09 <b_jonas> yeah, Nix doesn't care about the mana cost or converted mana cost
21:15:09 <zzo38> A spell cast with morph was paid with three mana, so it can't be used
21:15:16 <b_jonas> which conterspells care about that?
21:15:46 <tswett> So what happens when a spell with no characteristics and no text resolves?
21:15:48 <zzo38> And then, there is my "Phyrexian Nix" variant
21:16:17 <tswett> Does it go to the graveyard, and thus get turned face up again?
21:16:23 <zzo38> tswett: I would do, it just comes into play; if for some reason it cannot, it goes to the graveyard instead.
21:16:43 <b_jonas> so how does Dispersal Shield work with a spell cast face down using morph?
21:16:50 <tswett> But what do the rules say happens?
21:16:52 <b_jonas> (I knew I had such a counterspell)
21:17:26 <b_jonas> tswett: it should come to play face down as part of resolving, without getting turned face up, I think
21:17:28 <zzo38> I don't know; what does that card say?
21:17:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: Dispersal Shield is an Instant with "Counter target spell if its converted mana cost is less than or equal to the highest converted mana cost among permanents you control."
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21:18:52 <b_jonas> it's one of those multiple cards from the Onslaught block that care about Scornful Egoist
21:25:55 <b_jonas> There's a lot of other counterspells that care about cmc, including Disdainful Stroke; Disrupting Shoal; Induce Paranoia; Overwhelming Intellect; Prohibit; Rethink; Spell Burst; Spell Blast (wow, it has remainder text for cmc, they're finally starting to put SANE remainder text on cards, great!); Thoughtbind.
21:26:34 <b_jonas> The most famous such counterspell is probably Mana Drain.
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21:58:06 <oren> huge thuderstorm here. my power's probably going to go out
21:58:43 <oren> those bloody incompetents at toronto hydro can't waterproof anything
21:59:03 <lambdabot> CYYZ 022151Z 22013G51KT 210V300 5SM +TSRA FEW009 BKN026CB OVC250 18/14 A2976 RMK SF2CB4CI2 FRQ LTGIC ALQDS WSHFT 2143 PRESFR SLP078 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
21:59:35 <oren> gusting 51 knots! crazy
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22:00:34 <Taneb> oren, the highest the weather station I use has ever seen was 62 knots
22:00:43 <Taneb> And that was... last year
22:03:36 <oren> it has settleed down a little
22:04:06 <oren> yeah it's down to a drizzle.
22:06:31 <oren> but my power could still go out, when the water sinks into the earth and fucks up the cables
22:06:51 <oerjan> hm i haven't looked at the blitzersomething site in a while
22:08:29 <oerjan> oh they have a world map now
22:09:14 <oerjan> something's definitely happening in the lakes area
22:09:23 <Taneb> Oh, the thundermap thing
22:20:25 <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:20:59 <oren> fuck I can't spell that bullshit
22:22:43 <oerjan> `addquote <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:22:49 <HackEgo> 1251) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:23:39 <oerjan> let this be a warning to other fontomaniacs
22:24:31 <shachaf> I'm not sure what the distinction is between SO shachaf and shachaf.
22:24:38 <shachaf> they're the same person hth
22:25:11 <oerjan> you're just shachaf. the other one is SO shachaf. hth.
22:25:12 <shachaf> Also http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png is my picture almost everywhere. I'm not sure why you picked SO.
22:25:13 <Taneb> shachaf, SO shachaf is unbelievably shachaf. He is so shachaf I can't even handle how shachaf he is
22:25:43 <oerjan> shachaf: easiest to find at a moment's notice?
22:25:46 <oren> the number 8 should formally be decomposable as o with ring above
22:26:00 <shachaf> I use http://slbkbs.org/yawg-prime.png at work so I don't confuse different accounts.
22:26:52 <shachaf> It's a bit more professional.
22:27:40 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't see why
22:27:46 <Taneb> That is a really professional picture
22:28:10 <oerjan> i think it's a bit spotty
22:28:44 <Taneb> Anyway I am going to go to bed now
22:31:00 <Taneb> oerjan, the monster quit a while back due to unworkable conditions
22:32:33 <Taneb> Which really days tell me that I ought to tidy my room
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22:41:04 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output | grep Summary
22:41:14 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output
22:41:15 <HackEgo> changeset: 3516:086a7a03de20 \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Aug 28 21:11:30 2013 +0000 \ summary: <olsner> touch wisdom/output
22:41:20 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output | grep summary
22:41:22 <HackEgo> summary: <olsner> touch wisdom/output
22:42:45 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:43:46 <oerjan> much of the wisdom is not `wisdom-compatible
22:44:54 <shachaf> I thought it was a trap set for oerjan that prints "No output." when you rm it.
22:45:37 * pikhq sits down and attempts not to explode
22:45:59 <oerjan> pikhq: too much nitroglycerin?
22:46:48 <shachaf> spot of the nitroglycerin, governor?
22:51:38 <oerjan> i see you're going boom or bust with your meme
22:52:07 <shachaf> please don't call it that tdnh
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23:01:30 <olsner> now why would I touch wisdom/output
23:06:58 <oerjan> ...why have i never thought of that one.
23:07:44 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-06-30#225319oerjan
23:10:38 <oerjan> must have been an impersonator
23:12:37 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:12:44 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:12:51 <HackEgo> hand/A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
23:12:58 <HackEgo> phantom__________hoover/OK you got me there.
23:13:13 <oerjan> see? another non-`wisdom compatible one.
23:15:12 -!- wqe23 has joined.
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23:17:57 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 1 3`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:17:59 <HackEgo> 1: Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ 2: Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is. \ 3: Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
23:18:01 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 4 6`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:02 <HackEgo> 4: phantom____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 5: phantom_____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 6: phantom______hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:18:05 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 7 9`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:07 <HackEgo> 7: It doesn't get any better than this. \ 8: phantom________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 9: phantom_________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:18:08 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 10 12`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:10 <HackEgo> 10: OK you got me there. \ 11: phantom___________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 12: phantom____________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:20:37 <oren> So now I have the characters from ASCII and Latin-1
23:21:03 <oren> I think I'll take a break, then add Greek and Katakana
23:21:19 <oren> Oh, and all the DF characters
23:23:55 <oren> yeah gotta get cp-437 as soon as possible
23:24:25 <b_jonas> oren: you have those characters in what?
23:24:30 <b_jonas> oren: are you making a font?
23:24:49 <oren> hold on I'll screenshot
23:24:55 <b_jonas> I already have all of cp-437 and iso-8859-1 in my font, those were in my original goal
23:26:42 <b_jonas> I also have all of iso-8859-2, cp-1252 (new version), cp-1250 (new version), and I think I also might have all of iso-8859-4, iso-8859-15, iso-8859-16 (which is actually covered by a union of the previous ones) but I'm not quite sure
23:27:20 <b_jonas> I even have glyphs for all the control characters in iso-8859-1, though those don't display in terminal windows :-)
23:27:35 <b_jonas> however, I only have a few of greek, and no Katakana
23:27:55 <b_jonas> and the greek is very ugly, I added it only to see maths formulas a bit
23:29:01 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/screen1.png
23:29:22 <oerjan> when you do greek, make sure to be able to spell διάῤῥοια properly twh
23:30:22 <oren> seems I have all of latin-1 but not all of Windows-1252
23:30:23 <b_jonas> wow, that looks nice. can you also show a screenshot with some longer text in a natural language?
23:30:50 <oren> yeah hold on I'll screenshot this
23:31:40 <b_jonas> is that all printable cp-1252 characters shown?
23:31:56 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/screen3.png
23:32:06 <oren> yeah but I'm apparently missing a lot
23:32:23 <b_jonas> nice and of distinguishable characters
23:33:27 <oren> 7 has a stroke and 1 has a tick, the way I write them
23:34:08 <b_jonas> I should put up a sane screenshot of my font and link it
23:34:15 <b_jonas> currently all I have is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-cp437.png
23:35:04 <b_jonas> (and http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png of a different old font, one that's for crazy decorative headings rather than for body text)
23:35:08 <oren> I made a compromise by shrinking the capitals to make room for their accents
23:35:33 <oren> blackboard bold, nice
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23:38:05 <b_jonas> ok, so what should I put in the screenshot(s)? I'll certainly put http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/versw , then maybe http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/verst and its English original so there's English text too. But I also need some way to list many characters, such as all cp437 or all cp1250 etc. What encodings? Should I show literally all glyphs in unicode order?
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23:38:56 <b_jonas> And I might want to show some program code too. What's a good example of C code I can show?
23:39:15 <hppavilion[1]> I have developed a spontaneous interest in quantum computing
23:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> After I figure out how the hell quantum physics works
23:40:06 <oren> I recommend reading some books on the subject
23:40:21 <oren> I have not done so, however, so...
23:40:31 <oren> I don't know anything about it
23:40:37 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out that this non-esolang I started designing a while back would be particularly useful in QC
23:41:01 <b_jonas> oren: I don't think I like the "ð" in your font
23:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> So one could make an easy operation for quantum logic gates
23:41:26 <b_jonas> though I'm not saying I know how to improve it
23:42:00 <b_jonas> oren: this one looks more like a reversed delta to me
23:42:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i predict that your talk will not be able to stay coherent hth
23:42:24 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oren is, http://www.orenwatson.be/screen3.png http://www.orenwatson.be/screen1.png
23:42:41 <b_jonas> hehe, that's a HORRIBLE pun
23:44:57 <b_jonas> oren: is "—" from your font or substituted? it looks too similar to "-"
23:45:43 <oren> Maybe I should shorten my hyphen-minus
23:46:30 <oren> yeah then it wouldn't look the same as my em-dash
23:47:13 <b_jonas> I consider "-" the most important (mostly because it occurs a lot in program code), so I don't make compromises about it. I have a bulge under "–" and two bulges under "—". "‐" is short but two pixels thick.
23:48:40 <b_jonas> I also have distinguishable glyphs for "‒" and "−" and ""
23:49:09 <b_jonas> I for one think "-" should be long, but it's your choice of course.
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23:50:11 <oren> hmm bumps would work
23:50:25 <oren> or maybe I'll just change the height slightly
23:50:46 <b_jonas> also, I find your "¼½¾" hard to read. what if you made the slash thinner or removed it entirely to allow for the digits to be bigger?
23:51:14 <b_jonas> I think I also have a glyphs that's a hyphen with a dot over or under it, but I don't recall which character it was. Let me check.
23:52:11 <oerjan> @let type S = (Num n) => State n
23:52:12 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to ‘State n’
23:52:12 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘State n’ has kind ‘* -> *’
23:52:45 <oerjan> oh it wasn't the library type
23:52:56 <oerjan> @let type S = (Num n) => [n]
23:52:57 <lambdabot> Variable ‘n’ is implicitly quantified due to a context
23:52:57 <lambdabot> Use explicit forall syntax instead.
23:53:08 <oerjan> ok it's just a warning
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23:53:25 <b_jonas> hmm no, I don't have just a glyph. maybe I had one in a previous version.
23:55:25 <b_jonas> I guess I could show all characters in my font in rows of 16 unicode characters, with the code before each row. that would identify each character (except possibly missing characters, which I'll have to mark somehow, maybe with a blue middle dot or something).
23:58:05 <b_jonas> Oh well, I'll figure this screenshot thing out later. Good night for now.
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23:58:48 <b_jonas> And good luck with your font, oren.