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01:06:56 <zzo38> I would want a variant of the "fixed" font that is also including the DEC technical characters, and preferably also support for PC character set and PETSCII, and possibly also the Infocom character graphics
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01:24:50 <zzo38> A new kind of Magic: the Gathering card: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps a land he controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card."
01:28:37 <zzo38> s/taps a land/taps an untapped land/
01:33:51 <shachaf> zzo38: A real Magic: The Gathering card would say "a land he or she controls"
01:35:32 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm not sure I follow that card.
01:35:42 <shachaf> "active player" is the same as "the player whose turn it is", right?
01:36:22 <zzo38> Yes. For the card drawing effect, it must be your teammate or your opponent, but the other effect includes everyone (unless that player controls no untapped lands)
01:36:47 <shachaf> So the card helps everyone except you?
01:37:01 <shachaf> I must be missing something.
01:37:02 <zzo38> If you have a card that lets you draw cad instead of opponent, then you will draw a card, but it still doesn't work during your own turn.
01:37:50 <zzo38> And if you have Underworld Dreams, then opponent will both draw a card and lose 1 life point.
01:39:58 <zzo38> (You can also donate it to allow you to draw a card, or steal such a card from opponent to prevent yourself from drawing a card.)
01:40:51 <shachaf> Drawing a card and losing a life is almost always beneficial for your opponent, isn't it?
01:41:17 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether there are any cards that have negative effects and require Donate to be useful.
01:41:36 <zzo38> Clearly it depends on the circumstances, such as their current life points, how many cards remain in their library, and effects that depend on how many cards are in some player's hand.
01:42:29 <shachaf> There are things like Demonic Pact.
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01:51:34 <zzo38> OK, I can see that now too
02:01:23 <oren> Now I have all of cp-437
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02:05:24 <oren> Later I'll go back and increase coverage to entire unicode blocks
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02:18:02 <oren> LATIN EXTENDED A is done
02:19:36 <oren> Ok apparently there is Latin-1 then Latin-A then Latin-B. WTF
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03:17:36 <oerjan> i sense a bit of a cognitive dissonance. i think i switched every single configuration toggle in the setup.
03:19:16 <shachaf> I hear the start menu is back.
03:20:25 <oerjan> shachaf: everything suggesting sending information to microsoft and/or sharing data with/between apps
03:21:43 <oerjan> also, IE seems replaced with something new and edgy, i wonder if i can find my tabs again...
03:25:14 <oerjan> ok this is unacceptable hm...
03:26:11 <Jafet> Windows should really come with a dessert menu
03:27:43 <Sgeo> "There must be no space between the #` and the opening bracket character. (There may be the visual appearance of space for some double-wide characters, however, such as the corner quotes above.)
03:27:51 <Sgeo> That's surprisingly acknowleding of Unicodeness
03:28:02 <oerjan> hm typing into putty is annoyingly slow
03:28:06 <Sgeo> But I think if Perl6 has any strengths at all, Unicode is looking like one
03:28:27 <Sgeo> I'm thinking vararg handling might be another, but not sure yet
03:34:24 * oerjan vaguely suspect this upgrade was a mistake. oh well.
03:34:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I've stopped being able to boot to Windows so I don't have to worry about this problem.
03:35:01 <oerjan> more seriously, my touchpad driver menu has disappeared again and the usual method to fix it doesn't seem to be working.
03:39:47 <oren> YEAH! now I have everything from the first 3 unicode blocks
03:40:29 <oren> Now maybe I'll do Latin B
03:43:40 <oren> why does ʼn exist?
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03:45:33 <HackEgo> [U+0149 LATIN SMALL LETTER N PRECEDED BY APOSTROPHE] [U+0020 SPACE]
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03:53:51 <oerjan> the touchpad scroll actually works, but in the opposite direction.
03:54:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh no, they copied Apple on that evil change?
03:55:01 <oerjan> well i assume it's connected to the loss of my driver menu, which i've always sort of suspected competed with MS's setup
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03:56:31 <oerjan> perhaps that has been removed as not working in W10, in which case i guess i need to find the actual windows menu for it...
04:07:17 * pikhq wonders if RC4 is ever going to die.
04:07:49 <pikhq> I mean, it *should*, but it's not already dead and there's attacks on it on the order of "individual researchers can do decryption on it in the span of a couple days".
04:08:33 <zzo38> It is not always used for encryption though, and even if it is sometimes various improved versions are used
04:09:39 <Sgeo> Found another typo in a Perl 6 design doc, someone else fixed
04:10:11 <pikhq> It's really bad for RNG use too -- the RC4 random bit stream can be identified and in some cases predicted.
04:11:26 <pikhq> It's worth noting that the "arc4random" function is not necessarily using the RC4 algorithm, contrary to the name. :)
04:14:03 <zzo38> It can work if you don't need it to be so unpredictable and that stuff.
04:14:32 <pikhq> But then you may as well use a Mersenne twister.
04:16:58 <oren> Should I do Latin B next or complete the coverage of Greek?
04:32:33 * oerjan finds a touchpad upgrade download but it's horribly slow
04:33:06 <oerjan> oh well, at least it's progressing. shave ->
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04:51:40 <Sgeo> "And yes, an int1 can store only -1 or 0. I'm sure someone'll think of a use for it...
04:53:36 <zzo38> There is a 1-bit integer type in LLVM, although I think it is commonly consder unsigned
04:56:29 <Sgeo> "someone the other day made the mistake of saying the specs are specifications. I quickly corrected them of that nonsense; they're speculations."
04:58:01 <oren> All of Windows 1252 is now supported
04:58:54 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: perfectly usable for BASIC combined boolean-logical arithmetics.
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05:00:16 <zzo38> Yes, in BASIC, as well as in Forth, it is commonly use -1 for true and 0 for false, so that you don't need separate bitwise and logical AND and OR operators. Although, at least Forth has a 0= operator.
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05:39:59 <oerjan> finally scroll works in the right direction again.
05:41:59 * oerjan optimistically checks out girl genius. hey it's already updated!
05:42:24 <shachaf> can you make olist update twh
05:43:26 <oerjan> sorry, just used up that spell slot
05:46:38 <shachaf> spot of the spot check, governor?
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07:33:08 <Sgeo> "„I know!”, a gemstone-fascinated person would say, „We can monkey-patch IO::Socket::INET”. And then we have two problems. "
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08:13:21 <oren> my font now supports all the block elements
08:13:37 <oren> and most of the geometric shapes
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08:17:51 <Taneb> You still come across as kinda flat
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08:35:47 <oren> 750 characters!
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08:43:54 <oren> well I'm done for today, i'll do more tomorrow
08:43:57 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters.ttf
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08:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> It's impossible for know for certain if a file exists
08:51:10 <Aearnus> It'd be easy to find files with small identifiers but harder to find files with large ones
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08:56:26 <hooplavilion[1]> And the more files you have, the less certain you can be when it si
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08:59:48 <mroman> Windows 10 Solitaire has Ads.
08:59:59 <fizzie> mroman: Don't worry, you can pay to get rid of them.
09:00:25 <mroman> fizzie: Well, that's fair then.
09:00:28 <fizzie> It's a "freemium" operating system.
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09:00:56 <mroman> Seriously, this ad bullshit has to stop.
09:01:25 <Aearnus> mroman: what a great way for a poor corporation to get money, though
09:02:10 <mroman> "An ad-free internet would cost each user at least £140 a year – a sum that the vast majority of UK web users say they would never pay, according to new research. "
09:02:13 <mroman> I call bullshit on that.
09:03:28 <Aearnus> Practically, where would the money go? To the ISP? Where would the ISP send that money?
09:03:53 <Aearnus> Pay-per-view internet? ;-;
09:03:56 <mroman> Websites could just use paypal or something.
09:04:02 <mroman> or pay-per-view through micro-payment services
09:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Someone will make a free and better version of Windows Solitare without ads because that's a humanitarian effort obviously
09:04:15 <mroman> hppavilion[1]: There probably are already
09:05:06 <mroman> net neutrality doesn't prohibit you from collecting money.
09:05:16 <mroman> A youtube account will cost 10$ a year.
09:05:36 <Aearnus> I mean, there are already websites behind paywalls
09:06:48 <Jafet> Does that mean people in the UK are giving up £140 each year to ads?
09:07:06 <Jafet> (Make that ~£200, after overheads.)
09:07:25 <mroman> I think they just calculated how much ad companies pay to show their ads.
09:07:34 <mroman> and then divided that by the number of UK citizens
09:08:07 <Aearnus> Because no UK citizens use ad block, of course
09:08:22 <Jafet> Well, the ads are either worth the expense (in which case the above is true) or they're not (in which case the number is meaningless)
09:08:41 <mroman> I'd say if the ad companies pay that much money they are worth it
09:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> There's an assigned scientific variable called Ukc which stands for "Number of Citizens of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Blah Blah Blah"
09:08:57 <mroman> I'm pretty sure the ad companies aim for profit.
09:09:14 <mroman> they will probably make more money than what they pay
09:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> They don't pay for users who would never click their ads
09:09:50 <mroman> I haven't yet intentionally clicked on any ad
09:10:08 <mroman> only google search results.
09:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> I don't click on ads becasue it is technologically impossible for me to do so :P
09:10:21 <mroman> which might be skewed as well...
09:10:35 <Jafet> Now, it's plausible that good analytics for an affluent country like the UK can be worth £200 per person per year)
09:14:11 <mroman> I've heard ad companies pay ad block money to not block them :)
09:14:25 <mroman> or at least that's still a conspiracy theory.
09:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is someone who uses adblock _ever_ going to click on an ad, even without adblock?
09:15:28 <mroman> https://adblockplus.org/acceptable-ads-agreements
09:15:42 <Aearnus> Unless it's one of those tricky "download now" ads
09:16:07 <mroman> they get paid for the acceptable ads :)
09:17:50 <Jafet> Ad networks don't actually care about the minuscule expense of serving ads to users. They even use HTTPS now, so that the ads are harder to filter.
09:20:46 <Jafet> (Amusingly, those ads can now also take much longer to load, due to the TLS handshake.)
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11:09:15 <boily> that's not very wisdommy.
11:10:55 <boily> `le/rn hockey/Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley.
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11:26:03 <HackEgo> el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry.
11:26:50 <boily> strange. I expected Taneb to have invented it.
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11:31:09 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
11:31:29 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*Rust*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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11:37:35 <HackEgo> irrelevant info/KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
11:38:05 <APic> b_jonas: Did You get a Level-Up and can increase Stats now?
11:38:27 <APic> Had not seen the Backlog. B)
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12:06:57 <mroman> `learn fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station.
12:07:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station.
12:07:05 <mroman> `learn fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
12:07:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
12:17:18 <Jafet> tswett: how big is the RNN you've been training on the logs?
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12:45:14 <mroman> fungot: Why would you want to do that?
12:45:14 <fungot> mroman: train goes soon. in a more or less anything at random in esoteric. no sir!
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13:36:52 <mroman> fungot: train to where?
13:36:52 <fungot> mroman: including baby fnord. if not, will you? i chat with people on the comittee that decided that i'm not i shall rape you into submission!!!
13:37:13 <mroman> It rapes you into submission
13:38:03 <mroman> fungot: are you a RSO?
13:38:03 <fungot> mroman: he was banned from haskell over a year ago
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14:09:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:12:46 <Jafet> Rape submission officer, presumably
14:13:35 <mroman> registered sex offender
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14:22:01 <fizzie> I wonder which channel that gem is from.
14:22:29 <fizzie> Okay, #esoteric. Big surprise there.
14:23:14 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2008-06-04#204157GregorR
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14:42:42 <mroman> "The breakthrough is unlikely to see people losing their jobs to software-creating computers, Harman explains. "We want to free programmers from their shackles, not to make them redundant," he says. Instead, it will free programmers up from boring tasks."
14:42:47 <mroman> that's complete bullshit
14:43:30 <mroman> every automation will eventually cause someone's job.
14:44:53 <mroman> If you make something automatic, someone can't work the same hours he used to.
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14:46:13 <mroman> If something can be done more efficiently, you don't need as much workers
14:46:21 <mroman> or if you keep the same amount of workers, you need more work.
14:46:47 <|f`-`|f> with increased productivity
14:46:54 <|f`-`|f> you can keep the same amount of workers
14:47:10 <|f`-`|f> and have them do elective/voluntary projects
14:47:11 <mroman> yeah, which means less pay for the worker usually.
14:47:21 <mroman> unless they also pay you more per hour.
14:47:28 <|f`-`|f> you can thank the corporate tax and benefits system for that
14:47:38 <|f`-`|f> it's why burn rates are high for small businesses
14:48:01 <|f`-`|f> and when I mean benefits I mean the "employee "benefits""
14:48:09 <mroman> technically if your productivity is up, you should earn more
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14:48:13 <mroman> and if you earn more, you can pay more
14:48:43 <mroman> but in general I think you will loose jobs.
14:48:43 <|f`-`|f> the issue is that unions eat 30% employee income
14:48:57 <|f`-`|f> and payroll taxes on top of beneifts, and employee taxes
14:49:14 <|f`-`|f> just bleeds money the more you make due to regression in the graduate taxes
14:49:44 <mroman> although if you make certain tasks so easy, they can be done by uneducated humans
14:49:50 <mroman> you actually make the more educated humans jobless
14:50:02 <mroman> while the uneducated get more "factory jobs" :)
14:50:06 <|f`-`|f> You can pay more, much like you can by raising the minimum wage, but that moves everyone on minimum wage to a new tax bracket where they get screwed
14:50:38 * mroman imagines a time where programming apps is 95% factory work where you just click things together
14:50:51 <mroman> and the other 5% writes modules the factory worker can put together :D
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14:52:45 <mroman> put yeah, a lot of programming is just doing the same things over and over again
14:52:58 <mroman> like writing UI for stuff
14:53:28 <mroman> they should be semi-auto-generatable from some existing source code or description
14:53:41 <|f`-`|f> Which is why pressing programming into math is helpful
14:54:47 <|f`-`|f> (Auto derivation, machine proofs, etc)
14:56:45 <mroman> but it'll cost me my job.
14:57:17 <mroman> I'm the one that does these boring repetitive things
14:57:28 <mroman> if you automate does I have nothing left to do.
14:58:19 <tswett> Jafet: IIRC, it's 3 layers, size 700.
14:58:38 <mroman> That's why one should be happy to have a boring job. Because boring pays.
14:59:46 <mroman> If you do research about how to make humans useless you should also do research what to do with the useless humans :P
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15:30:51 <coppro> how come whenever I write haskell code I feel dirty?
15:31:23 <myname> haskell is pure beauty
15:32:27 <coppro> myname: I feel like my code isn't beauty enough
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17:31:12 <tromp_> haskell is a work of art, but you can still write ugly Haskell code:(
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17:42:00 <shachaf> What you're saying is that you can write (ugly (Haskell code)), but not ((ugly Haskell) code)?
17:48:39 <ais523> ugly Haskell is an esolang
17:48:51 <ais523> in much the same way that compile-time C++ is
17:51:00 <shachaf> Can you make sense of the following Magic: The Gathering card that zzo38 proposed yesterday?: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps an untapped land he or she controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card."
17:56:59 <shachaf> When would it be a good idea to play?
17:57:40 <ais523> oh wow that card is bad
17:58:13 <coppro> whyyy did I nuke my code directory
17:58:33 <ais523> also that's templated in correctly, ", and then" should just be "."
17:58:46 <ais523> coppro: restore from backup?
17:59:09 <coppro> ais523: I just wrote it today
17:59:23 <ais523> recovering a day of work isn't normally too bad
17:59:26 <shachaf> I understand the mechanical interpretation but not why you would ever play that card.
17:59:58 <ais523> shachaf: it's zzo38, there probably isn't a reason
18:00:11 <ais523> he's more interested in what is possible than what is useful
18:00:44 <shachaf> In the past zzo38 suggested cards that I didn't understand the point of at first but did eventually.
18:00:51 <shachaf> But I guess this isn't one of those.
18:02:02 <ais523> actually I guess it wouldn't be so bad a card in Commander
18:02:18 <ais523> any card that lets everyone else draw cards tends to be good there because it makes people less inclined to kill you
18:03:07 <zzo38> It lets your teammates draw cards too, not only your opponents, is another thing. (That assumes you have any teammates)
18:05:03 <ais523> zzo38: ah right, it's probably a useful card in archenemy? howling mine effects are pretty good there
18:05:48 <zzo38> But there are also various combos including Underworld Dreams, and if someone has cards with first strike then there are two combat damage steps
18:06:06 <shachaf> Howling Mine looks pretty odd with modern rules.
18:06:21 <shachaf> But I vaguely remember something about artifacts being tapped in the good old days.
18:06:43 <zzo38> In old rules, abilities of tapped artifacts stop working (including poly artifacts)
18:08:22 <ais523> right, when the rules changed so that tapping an artifact didn't blank its rules text any more
18:08:32 <ais523> some artifacts got erratad to say "as long as CARDNAME is untapped,…"
18:09:01 <shachaf> You also used to be able to tap artifacts without a {T} ability, or something like that?
18:09:16 <zzo38> shachaf: If they are mono artifacts, then you have to tap it to pay its activation cost
18:09:38 <zzo38> There are no longer "mono artifacts", any one that requires tapping says {T}
18:12:22 <zzo38> I think mono artifacts and poly artifacts were actually added in Alpha (and then removed later); before Alpha the type was just "artifact", the activation cost was listed next to the mana cost, and all activation costs required tapping unless it specified otherwise.
18:15:49 <zzo38> Also the modern lands with only the mana symbol in the text box was actually the original way before Alpha was released. Mana costs originally had "3RR" meaning "three manas, at least two of which are red".
18:16:02 <zzo38> And the Plains cards before Alpha had pictures of airplanes on them.
18:16:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I think that's a better system.
18:16:33 <shachaf> Maybe even better is to take mana apart so that {R} is a linear combination of one colorless mana and one red.
18:17:44 <zzo38> I have thought of a kind of "algebraic system" where it would be written as "2r+1"
18:17:53 <shachaf> I don't know if that system is actually better.
18:18:22 <shachaf> Prismata has five resources: gold, green, blue, red, and energy
18:18:35 <shachaf> Gold and green persist past end of turn, the rest don't.
18:18:52 <shachaf> Usually something costs some amount of gold and one or more of green, blue, red.
18:19:21 <shachaf> But I was thinking of this system before I ever played Prismata.
18:20:03 <shachaf> By the way, if y'all're interested, I think I have a couple of beta invitation codes left.
18:20:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that'd get ugly when you get to mana with restrictions, such as the mana from the second ability of Sliver Hive
18:20:26 <shachaf> Yes, mtg has other things like that.
18:20:39 <shachaf> It also has mana that gives a creature haste if it's used to cast it.
18:21:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know of thing like that, I wouldn't use my system in Magic: the Gathering anyways; just idea for other kind of game to use something
18:21:44 <HackEgo> U+274E NEGATIVE SQUARED CROSS MARK \ UTF-8: e2 9d 8e UTF-16BE: 274e Decimal: ❎ \ ❎ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
18:21:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: eg. if a Forest produces a colorless mana and a green color, you can't spend the colorless mana to Imperiosaur, and the green color (together with some colorless mana produced by Sol Ring) to a Giant Growth
18:22:03 <tswett> Someone in Agora Nomic just voted ❎❎❎❎❎ a proposal.
18:22:09 <b_jonas> they're intrinsically fused
18:23:02 <tswett> I conclude that this vote is insufficiently clear to be effective.
18:23:27 <coppro> feel free to CFJ the eventual resolution
18:23:39 <tswett> If it matters, I probably will.
18:23:40 <b_jonas> There is some crazy mana magic in M:tG. The craziest is probably Celestial Dawn.
18:23:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't think this system is good for representing Magic: The Gathering mana.
18:23:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know those kind of thing, but that is different from my own idea
18:23:49 <tswett> That vote could easily mean either FOR or AGAINST.
18:23:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think it might be good for another game.
18:24:24 <tswett> A cross mark tends to mean "no", but a cross mark in a box tends to mean "this one".
18:24:48 <b_jonas> (and False Dawn and Sunglasses of Urza. how do they even invent such cards outside of un-sets?)
18:25:07 <b_jonas> (I don't want to even know how those combine)
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18:27:17 <b_jonas> (Why don't they just stick to cards that change what mana is produced, like Naked Singularity, or cards that actually recolor mana, such as Orochi Leafcaller)
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18:27:59 <tswett> So, I'm thinking about tensor products of mana systems.
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18:28:14 <tswett> IIRC, there are six types of mana: colorless, white, blue, black, red, green.
18:28:33 <tswett> The mana pool always contains some natural number (including zero) of each of these types.
18:28:44 <b_jonas> (I think the relevant rule is 609.4.)
18:28:48 <coppro> some mana has additional characteristics attached
18:28:52 <shachaf> tswett: A natural number isn't enough, though.
18:29:03 <tswett> Right, mana isn't necessarily fungible.
18:29:03 <shachaf> Because each individual mana can have additional jams.
18:29:11 <coppro> such as whether it's snow, any spending restrictions, and special effects
18:29:14 <shachaf> fungot: are you necessarily fungible
18:29:14 <fungot> shachaf: and impose limit on output size
18:29:17 <tswett> So I'm pretty sure that under the tensor square of this system, each mana would simply have an ordered pair of these types.
18:29:41 <coppro> although technically none of that is intrinsic to the mana
18:30:03 <b_jonas> coppro: oh, I asked about how Imperiosaur works, as in, it checks the characteristics of the object that's produced the mana at what time (what the characteristics are when you pay, when the mana was produced, etc), but I don't remember the answer.
18:30:03 <shachaf> What is the dual of a constraint?
18:30:08 <shachaf> ski suggested "endowment" once.
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18:30:30 <coppro> b_jonas: it is not that the mana has the property "produced by basic land"
18:30:38 <coppro> but that the game rules look at the history of the mana to figure out what applies to it
18:30:50 <shachaf> coppro: What is the effective difference here?
18:31:15 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, but when does the object have to be a basic land? what if the object changes to a basic land or to no longer a basic land by the time I pay with the mana?
18:31:27 <coppro> ah. don't know that one off hand
18:31:37 <coppro> the same applies to snow mana
18:31:50 <b_jonas> There's now two cards that change how mana empties from your mana pool.
18:31:59 <zzo38> The rules should be written as a literate computer program in order to make it more clearly.
18:32:00 <b_jonas> There used to be more, but they affected only mana burn, which doesn't exist now.
18:36:34 <zzo38> It is what I would do if I invented the card game, I think. If you don't understand some circumstance, put it into the computer and it will automatically calculate the answer.
18:46:06 <zzo38> (Although it can work even if you do not have a computer)
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18:59:22 <tswett> Suppose I have a sorcery that says, "Tap target creature. You gain 1 life."
18:59:36 <tswett> Can I cast this and gain 1 life from it if there are no creatures on the battlefield?
19:00:07 <tswett> Is this because it's impossible to cast a spell if it calls for a target and there isn't a legal one?
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19:00:44 <zzo38> No, there is no valid target
19:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> "If Evil were Midichlorians, this moose would be equal to THREE Darth Vaders"
19:01:03 <b_jonas> tswett: an example for a card like that is Vicious Hunger. a more extreme example is Hex.
19:01:07 <zzo38> But it will work if there are creaturse but only tapped creatures in play, then you can target one that is already tapped, I think
19:03:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: some cards require tapping creatures as a _cost_ for an activated ability, such as Springleaf Drum, those helpfully say "tap an untapped" though I think just "tap" would work technically if it's in a cost
19:03:43 <b_jonas> because invalid actions are ignored, but invalid costs cannot be payed
19:03:51 <zzo38> If it is a cost then it has to be untapped at first
19:03:56 <tswett> By the way, it looks like if you somehow had a card with no characteristics, and you cast it, it would essentially behave as a sorcery.
19:04:02 <zzo38> But costs don't target anything
19:04:18 <shachaf> An annoying thing about Magic: The Gathering is that some cards let you target zero or more things.
19:04:19 <tswett> A spell only enters the battlefield upon resolution if it's an artifact, creature, enchantment, or planeswalker.
19:04:45 <shachaf> But if you target a nonzero number of things, and then they all become invalid targets, the whole spell fizzles.
19:04:52 <shachaf> Even though you could have targeted nothing in the first place.
19:05:00 <tswett> I don't know if its mana cost would be zero or unpayable.
19:05:02 <shachaf> That's a scow interaction of rules if you ask.
19:05:12 <b_jonas> tswett: no, I don't think so. I think it would behave as an enchantment. but I don't think you can get a card with no type in the stack in any way. you can only get cards with no types as permanents, or as hidden cards.
19:05:28 <tswett> b_jonas: why do you think it would behave as an enchantment?
19:05:37 <b_jonas> tswett: as in, it would resolve
19:05:52 <zzo38> At least I would have it come into play and do nothing
19:05:59 <zzo38> But the rules don't seem to really specify
19:06:28 <b_jonas> tswett: well, probably the rules don't really say, but the rules do say that Sorceries and Instants can't enter the battlefield
19:06:30 <zzo38> It would try to come into play, and since it isn't an instant or sorcery, it would succeed, I think
19:06:52 <tswett> I think the rules do really say.
19:07:29 <tswett> 608.3. "If the object that’s resolving is a permanent spell, its resolution involves a single step (unless it’s an Aura). The spell card becomes a permanent and is put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller."
19:07:37 <b_jonas> tswett: I definitely think you can get typeless cards only as permanents (where you can do it by taking away types) or as hidden objects (cards in a library, hand, exiled face down, or just drawn while you're casting a spell)
19:08:13 <b_jonas> tswett: but I think the typeless permanents (which are actually possible) sort of make a precendent,
19:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see an esolang that can physically manipulate reality
19:09:00 <b_jonas> tswett: also note how all effects that copy spells specifically allow you to copy only sorceries and instants, and that nothing can add or remove sorcery or instant type on an object except by turning it face down or making it hidden or unhidden
19:09:19 <zzo38> tswett: I think rule 608.3 isn't really answering this strange question, because it doesn't tell you if it is a "permanent spell" or not
19:09:29 <tswett> zzo38: typeless spells are by definition not permanent spells.
19:09:36 <tswett> By the definition of "permanent spell", that is.
19:09:45 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but you can't get such a spell so it's not a problem
19:09:48 <tswett> I guess the rules don't give a resolution effect for typeless cards, so my assumption would be that they don't have any resolution effect at all.
19:10:04 <b_jonas> tswett: they'll fix the rules when there becomes a way to get such a spell
19:10:18 <zzo38> Then I suppose they would just act like sorceries, since they would have to get discarded
19:10:22 <tswett> b_jonas: can you give me an example of how a typeless permanent would come about?
19:10:27 <zzo38> Or possibly they would get exiled instead, I don't know?
19:11:08 <zzo38> But I would have avoided these problems by writing the rules as a literate computer program
19:12:01 <b_jonas> tswett: a way is to temporarily animate an artifact with March of the Machines, make it no longer an artifact with Neurok Transmuter, then unanimate it by removing March of the Machines
19:12:20 <b_jonas> tswett: there's other ways involving taking away some type, but this is the easiest to see
19:12:28 <b_jonas> I don't think any of them are significantly different
19:13:16 <tswett> Huh. I think March of the Machines would mean that artifact lands are no longer lands.
19:13:44 <b_jonas> tswett: no, there's a separate rule for "is an artifact creature" that makes it not so
19:14:02 <b_jonas> 205.1b (in some version of the rules)
19:14:11 <shachaf> On leap years, February of the Machines
19:14:33 <zzo38> I have made up the card that can remove all supertypes and subtypes of a spell
19:14:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm... that would be strange. let me check what are all supertypes and subtypes these days.
19:15:25 <b_jonas> Supertypes are: basic, legendary, ongoing, snow, and world.
19:16:03 <zzo38> These include (but are not limited to): World, Legendary, Snow, Aura, and creature types.
19:16:32 <zzo38> (As well as planeswalker subtypes)
19:17:44 <b_jonas> Subtypes are: tons of creature types, a few dozen planeswalker types, three artifact types (Contraption, Equipment, Fortification), enchantment types (Aura, Curse, Shrine), land types (five basic land types plus currently Desert, Gate, Lair, Locus (hi land mirror thingy), Mine, Power-Plant (Urza-tron), Tower, Urza's), and spell types (Arcane and Trap).
19:17:49 <b_jonas> I think that's exhaustive.
19:17:54 <tswett> I wonder what's the simplest card that would just break the game.
19:18:07 <tswett> That would be pretty breaky.
19:18:08 <b_jonas> Oh no it's not, there's also plane types.
19:18:10 <zzo38> Well, you cannot target rules
19:18:18 <zzo38> But other than that, yes it break the game
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19:19:07 <zzo38> The rules don't make rules a valid target; a target can be a player, object, or zone, I think.
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19:19:24 <tswett> Well, then, "Choose a rule and delete it."
19:19:49 <zzo38> Yes, that would break the game completely
19:20:00 <b_jonas> tswett: the simplest card that breaks the game is Little Girl I think
19:20:14 <tswett> "All cards become their own controllers." Except maybe cards can't be controllers.
19:21:04 <zzo38> Cards can't control stuff, except with my variant rule where planeswalkers can control stuff other than planeswalkers or players.
19:21:15 <b_jonas> that breaks either the game or a card (the Chaos Confetti way) if you try to measure its Soul's Majesty
19:21:47 <b_jonas> no really, there's tons of fun un-cards that break the rule in lots of interesting ways
19:21:54 <tswett> "Put all cards on the battlefield."
19:22:07 <zzo38> "Play all cards as written. Ignore all errata."
19:22:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, was that an un-card?
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19:22:40 <tswett> zzo38: maybe even better would be "Every card's flavor text is part of its rule text."
19:22:56 <tswett> Anyway, I gotta go see about networking.
19:23:18 <zzo38> I had idea about the programming language to define the effect of the cards with.
19:23:18 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't see how that's simpler than Little Girl
19:24:06 <zzo38> Some stuff such as Chaos Confetti and "Choose a rule and delete it" are probably not possible to define with this programming language.
19:24:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Which programming language is this?
19:24:59 <shachaf> I wanted to invent a programming language for something like Magic: The Gathering cards, but then I decided that it was too complicated.
19:25:05 <zzo38> Some that isn't quite invented yet
19:25:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see Chaos Confetti as really that bad, compared to some other un-cards
19:26:37 <b_jonas> though there's some un-cards where I'm not sure how bad they really are, like B.F.M. and S.N.O.T.
19:27:11 <zzo38> You could do Chaos Confetti if it has explicit rule support, which would require a host function macro (the function does not actually have to be implemented, but you must be able to identify it)
19:28:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's two ugly parts of Chaos Confetti: the Chaos Orb part which requires manual dexterity and requires that nobody moves cards on the table after it's cast, and the Blacker part which requires to destroy the underlying card
19:29:04 <b_jonas> both of those are bad from the perspective of what kind of game M:tG wants to be (Chaos Orb is banned), but they're not really that bad rules-wise I think
19:29:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is why I say, in order to implement with this programming language to make it mathematically defined, you must make a "external host function reference"
19:29:48 <shachaf> I wish they updated the Oracle text of un-cards.
19:30:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: for the Chaos Orb part, yes. for the Blacker part, possibly no, if you implement ownership of cards in the same system as the rules, which can be done in MtgO
19:30:51 <zzo38> I would prefer that they deleted the Oracle text of many un-cards (keeping only the copy of the printed text); and update the Oracle text of the ones that can be use with normal game.
19:30:56 <zzo38> (Even though they are banned)
19:31:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: the un-rules manager who puts out un-rules faqs and makes un-rulings of the highest levels is Marc Rosewater, and he's very bad with templating, so if they updated Oracle text, they'd be crazy bad
19:31:29 <shachaf> I just want them to say "enter the battlefield" instead of "come into play" and so on.
19:31:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: why would _that_ help?
19:32:04 <shachaf> For consistency with modern cards and rules.
19:32:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Actually for ownership of cards, well, it doesn't have to MtgO, just it is remove from the sideboard too, so you cannot use it in multiple game of the match.
19:32:52 <shachaf> Oh, what happens with Blacker Lotus if you play a multi-game match and you tear it up in the first game?
19:32:57 <zzo38> (Rule support for that function is still required though)
19:32:58 <shachaf> You can't play a second game with a 59-card deck.
19:33:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Take a card from your sideboard to replace it.
19:33:18 <shachaf> What if your sideboard is empty?
19:33:29 <zzo38> Then I suppose you have to concede before the game is started
19:34:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it has to be more than the match. it's the whole tournament, because you often have to use the same deck and sideboard for the whole tournament of multiple matches.
19:34:22 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too, so you may have to concede the entire tournament
19:34:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: Wouldn't your deck be restored to the original list of cards between matches?
19:35:08 <shachaf> For instance at the beginning of a new match you can't sideboard, you have to start with the cards that were in your deck originally.
19:35:21 <shachaf> Maybe that means that your whole deck resets, Blacker Lotuses included.
19:35:26 <zzo38> It depends on the tournament format I think
19:35:29 <b_jonas> maybe you replace it with a basic land?
19:36:26 <zzo38> In some Limited formats you do not have to register the deck, and in that case it is allowed to sideboard at the beginning of a new match, I think
19:36:49 <b_jonas> I'd say replace it with a basic land in your deck or sideboard before the start of the next game or something
19:36:56 <b_jonas> (but don't replace it during a game)
19:37:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, I guess the same question might come up for ante cards.
19:37:35 <ais523> shachaf: the ante cards are all banned because of that
19:37:50 <ais523> shachaf: there's a ruling for Un sets that after destroying blacker lotus, you get to continue with the 59-card deck
19:37:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's some rule about how to "play without ante" and what ante cards do in that case I think
19:38:00 <b_jonas> but sure, they're banned, just like un-cards are
19:39:12 <b_jonas> well, there's Advantageous Proclamation that shows the game rules can handle smaller decks, 60 cards in constructed (40 cards in limited, 100 cards in some formats) is just the default minimum
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19:40:03 <b_jonas> however, making a deck of 40 Blacker Lotuses, destroying them in the first game against an easy opponent, and then winning with a 20 card deck would be too easy, so the rules should stop that
19:40:25 <b_jonas> which is why I'd say you have to replace them with basic lands before starting the next game
19:40:52 <shachaf> Contract from Below is TG.
19:41:46 <b_jonas> we should play without ante
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19:55:52 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/birkenfeld/rick
19:57:48 <zzo38> You can play with ante if you want to, returning the cards to whoever you borrowed them from after a match. If one player borrowed a deck from his opponent, then all cards you must give back to opponent afterward anyways.
19:58:13 <zzo38> But before that you can compare the cards you start with, with the cards you end with, to make up a score
20:00:55 <zzo38> It is a new kind of way to play with ante, even in Limited formats. You can also make it game/set/match so that card are sometimes return in the middle of a match too but not always
20:06:14 <zzo38> But if I had made up the rules I would want them to be more mathematically elegant
20:06:41 <Taneb> York's university challenge team are VERY good
20:07:26 <shachaf> b_jonas: It sounds like you're not pro-ante.
20:08:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not. It's not a good mechanic, and the cards aren't good either. They're like old bad cards that make the game worse, sort of like Divine Intervention.
20:08:20 <Taneb> shachaf, are you advocating upping the ante
20:08:31 <b_jonas> Ante simply isn't a good idea in M:tG.
20:08:41 <shachaf> I really just wanted to say it because it sounded like "pro-anti".
20:09:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: sorry, English puns don't always work on me, I have partial resistance.
20:09:13 <b_jonas> I don't know enough English to appreciate them.
20:10:00 <b_jonas> It's not perfect resistance, some of them do work quite well, such as the "bore" pun in http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1227.html
20:12:12 <shachaf> What cards should I put in my Bearer of the Heavens deck?
20:13:20 <shachaf> I'm not sure Island really fits.
20:13:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: Reknit, Boar Umbra, etc
20:13:21 <Taneb> You can make it work
20:13:37 <b_jonas> shachaf: regenerate a few key permanents that let you kill the opponent when he's defenseless
20:13:41 <Taneb> (those were the only cards I could remember)
20:13:44 <b_jonas> or make them indestructible, but that's harder
20:13:57 <shachaf> Other permanents, not the Bearer.
20:14:05 <shachaf> I had things like Boros Charm in my old deck.
20:14:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: Bearer of the Heavens destroys most permanents, including lands, that can leave the opponent pretty defenseless if you prepare well
20:14:20 <shachaf> (Which was made with Innistrad-and-onward cards.)
20:14:52 <shachaf> Gift of Immortality has an interesting interaction with BotH.
20:15:11 <b_jonas> also, you may need some defense against cards like Unmake or Swords to Plowshares that exile Bearer of Heavens
20:15:19 <shachaf> And a bunch of reanimation cards.
20:15:36 <shachaf> Right, I guess there are a lot more of those in Modern.
20:15:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: plus I guess you need some tricks to accelerate into Bearer of the Heavens and some extra spells quickly enough
20:15:54 <shachaf> My old deck had a bunch of reanimation.
20:16:10 <shachaf> Including Rescue from the Underworld, which works pretty well if you can get enough creatures for it.
20:16:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, you'll reanimate it rather than pay for it? that can work too
20:16:49 <b_jonas> it might work even better if you can put it to play for just one turn... can that be done these days?
20:16:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: what format and what kind of environment is this?
20:17:34 <shachaf> The environment is all sorts of strange decks, probably not too competitive in general.
20:17:51 <b_jonas> you should probably decide the format first, before you build the deck
20:19:12 <shachaf> But I don't really know much about pre-Innistrad Modern.
20:19:54 <b_jonas> hmm... what's in the ban list of Modern? is Darksteel Citadel allowed?
20:20:09 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC darksteel citadel is allowed but not the other artifact lands
20:20:24 <b_jonas> oh, Boros Charm? that sounds like a really good idea
20:21:18 <b_jonas> there's apparently Terra Eternal
20:21:25 <b_jonas> that won't work, it helps the opponent
20:21:31 <shachaf> I also had Tymaret, the Murder King.
20:21:33 <b_jonas> stick to Boros Charm and maybe some regeneration
20:21:44 <shachaf> And some other things, I don't remember.
20:21:57 <shachaf> There's a reanimation card with Flashback.
20:22:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: so what are the plans for getting Bearer of Heavens into play? how quickly do you want to do that?
20:22:17 <shachaf> In my previous deck it took a while.
20:22:21 <shachaf> But maybe Modern has more options.
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's some red card that puts it onto the battlefield then destroys it
20:24:43 <shachaf> Oh, I remember a card like that.
20:24:54 <shachaf> Was it in the most recent set?
20:25:14 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm confusing it with the keyword ability that some cards have.
20:26:03 <b_jonas> wait, could you use some card that lets you sacrifice your permanents as paying for dealing damage to the opponent?
20:26:28 <b_jonas> though it might be hard to do with your lands
20:26:30 <shachaf> Sure, assuming you can get it out onto the battlefield.
20:27:08 <b_jonas> that would both let you fling your goats before you get everything destroyed, and sacrifice Bearer itself
20:27:17 <shachaf> I think a card like that would be TG.
20:27:31 <shachaf> If it let you turn lands into damage.
20:27:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, it can't be one card
20:27:45 <b_jonas> animating all lands might not be worth
20:27:50 <shachaf> Oh, you mean a bunch of flings, or something.
20:28:02 <b_jonas> but you could still fling your creatures, assuming you have some other creatures that are useful
20:28:07 <shachaf> I kind of want to put Gift of Immortality in just because it keeps destroying all permanents every turn.
20:28:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: Goblin Bombardment
20:28:46 <ais523> shachaf: do you get to attack during all this?
20:28:48 <b_jonas> there's some others if you're willing to pay mana
20:29:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, interesting.
20:29:11 <ais523> also, the reanimation card with flashback is Dread Return, which is banned in Modern and one of the most important cards in top-tier decks in both Legacy and Vintage
20:29:15 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, _after_ the bearer dies, with some other creature you regenerate
20:29:18 <ais523> shachaf: the recursive Gift of Immortality loop
20:29:26 <ais523> I mean, attacking with the Bearer itself
20:29:38 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, it enters the battlefield before the beginning of your turn.
20:30:04 <shachaf> ais523: No, not Dread Return.
20:30:20 <b_jonas> you could also use Otherworldly Journey rather than regenerating creatures
20:30:47 <b_jonas> but yeah, Boros Charm sounds like the best
20:31:21 <ais523> shachaf: well if the opponent can't ever play anything that costs more than one mana, can't keep permanents around for a turn, and you get to attack every turn
20:31:32 <ais523> that sounds pretty much like a win to me unless they're running Erase or something similarly specific
20:32:45 <b_jonas> oh, Dread Return sounds nice
20:33:19 <b_jonas> no, probably not Dread Return
20:36:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: There are also creatures like Obzedat, Ghost Council.
20:36:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: try to search for existing deck lists with Bearer for ideas
20:37:36 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems most cards that put something into play for one turn are careful and _exile_ it
20:37:56 <b_jonas> some aren't, but they're harder to use, eg. Imprompty Raid
20:39:15 <shachaf> Oh, the card I was thinking of was Flameshadow Conjuring.
20:39:30 <shachaf> And it makes a copy anyway.
20:39:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: it costs tons of mana, but there's Kiki-Jiki which sacrifices a copy of your Bearer
20:40:06 <b_jonas> you can save the original by eg. regenerating it or journeying it, and then you attack with it
20:40:19 <b_jonas> regenerating is better because you get to attack immediately
20:40:38 <b_jonas> but of course the regenerated one will just get Doom Bladed
20:40:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: Kiki-Jiki also sacrifices it at end of turn, which means my opponent gets an extra turn before their permanents are destroyed.
20:41:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: they get an extra turn _after_ their permanents are destroyed, but before you get to attack
20:41:41 <b_jonas> which is much less of a problem
20:41:47 <shachaf> Kiki-Jiki sacrifices the copy of Bearer of the Heavens in the end step.
20:41:59 <shachaf> So its ability only destroys everything in the next end step.
20:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a protocol called Extensible Internet Chat (XIC) :)
20:43:00 <zzo38> IRC works fine, but OK you can try other stuff too
20:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> It's an open protocol that, in my imagination, would replace IRC as a better chat. Probably won't, but I'm allowed to dream :P
20:44:44 <shachaf> Dreaming isn't allowed on IRC.
20:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> It's designed to introduce the IRC interface to the newer generation
20:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's like IRC, but less complicated and allowing File Transfers and such
20:46:07 <b_jonas> there's Through the Breach which is like Kiki-Jiki
20:46:33 <shachaf> Hmm, Through the Breach is interesting.
20:46:38 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: IRC already allows file transfers
20:46:48 <ais523> although in practice, getting a DCC through a firewall can be hard
20:46:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: it has the same problems as Kiki-Jiki. expensive, works in enx of turn.
20:47:02 <shachaf> But it has the same disadvantage as -- yes.
20:47:14 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Since about 1991.
20:47:31 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's expensive but it doesn't require a Bearer to be on the battlefield already.
20:47:34 <fizzie> Although you can argue on whether DCC is part of IRC.
20:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> Well MY file transfers don't need anything more than the ability to encode a file to Base64
20:47:53 <shachaf> b_jonas: And CMC 5 isn't so bad. It's the same as an average reanimation spell.
20:48:05 <b_jonas> ais523: meh, just tunnel the file through a channel instead of a separate socket. it's ugly because you have to base-253 encode it and split it to lines and add headers before each line so it grows a lot, but still.
20:48:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, but now you need a way to put it to the battlefield, though that isn't too hard
20:48:50 <zzo38> IRC is simple and powerful enough as it is, I think. Most other protocols (such as XMPP) and so on tend to be very complicated
20:48:56 <shachaf> b_jonas: Through the Breach puts it from your hand onto the battlefield.
20:49:23 <fizzie> Also I don't see any good reason why to base64 if you're *not* trying to put something through a legacy thing not designed for it.
20:49:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: My old strategy was putting it in the graveyeard and reanimating it.
20:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Probably a newline problem when transmitting text files
20:50:02 <shachaf> I played Faithless Looting and cards like that.
20:50:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: is that something that can work in Modern?
20:50:22 <shachaf> Through the Breach is probably no worse than that strategy, though.
20:50:56 <fizzie> An XDCC bot with an esolang-related file archive is something we're sorely missing, but it's maybe a decare or two too late for that.
20:51:10 <fizzie> Decare is like a decade, but it cares more.
20:51:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't this something that you _don't_ want to reanimate in turn 3, because then you won't have enough resources to keep stuff from getting destroyed, and your opponent will be able to recover better than you?
20:51:32 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how this should work
20:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> Another reason I'm making this protocol: IRC has entered a declien
20:52:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Reanimating it isn't so bad. You still have a 10/10 that your opponent doesn't want to destroy.
20:52:21 <shachaf> But maybe in Modern there's a lot more exile.
20:52:48 <b_jonas> but he'll just chump block it forever
20:53:03 <shachaf> Sure, your opponent can bus.
20:53:29 <shachaf> But it's not a terrible position, and as soon as you draw Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality or something you can use it.
20:54:09 <b_jonas> had you mentioned that earlier and I missed it?
20:55:06 <shachaf> It's great. You get the Bearer back every turn.
20:57:58 <b_jonas> ok, really stupid question, what if you regenerate Barren Glory? nope, too many combo pieces, too much mana, too easy to disrupt.
20:58:20 <ais523> b_jonas: not to mention that you need a convoluted mess to regenerate an enchantment in the first place
20:58:38 <ais523> would be easier to make it indestructable; I think there's a single card that does that
20:58:40 <b_jonas> ais523: convoluted mess? isn't there like Reknit? let me check that
20:58:55 <zzo38> "Target player chooses any number not greater than X, loses that much life, draws that many cards, and then exiles the top Y cards of his/her library where Y is X minus the chosen number."
20:59:23 <shachaf> Oh, that's an interesting strategy.
20:59:26 <ais523> zzo38: without overload, that's broken at XB and strictly worse than an existing card at XBB
20:59:33 <shachaf> But seems tricky to pull off.
21:00:01 <zzo38> ais523: I know that it is broken at XB but I was intending to be XBB, and with an overload ability too
21:00:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think it works. it needs like three cards and a ton of mana, and disrupted very easily by any destroyer or countere. at that point you should have won ages ago.
21:00:12 <ais523> at XBB overload 0 it still isn't very good, because you'd basically never overload it unless the opponent was low on life
21:00:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: also like two colors or three
21:00:35 <b_jonas> ok, two colors doesn't really matter if you have nine mana to spend a turn
21:00:37 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's two colors but so is Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality.
21:00:38 <ais523> in which case you'd still prefer the existing XBB card because it would outright kill them
21:00:47 <ais523> so yes, that's broken at XB (target yourself), and just pointless at XBB overload 0
21:00:53 <zzo38> I think overload 0 is too low, it should be at least X
21:00:55 <ais523> maybe if it was XBB overload draw a card ;-)
21:01:14 <ais523> zzo38: overloading the card actually makes it worse, though
21:01:16 <b_jonas> what's this with overload?
21:01:28 <ais523> because exiling the top X cards of your library is not a very major effect unless X is very large
21:01:47 <zzo38> Overload draw a card? Maybe...
21:01:53 <ais523> and your opponent gets some amount of "lose 1 life and draw a card" effects of their choice, which is normally a good ability
21:02:10 <ais523> and which can't be used to kill them because they can choose not to take them
21:02:11 <zzo38> Yes, unless X is very large
21:02:38 <ais523> I think that card would be better as "each player draws X cards and loses X life" for XB
21:02:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is another kind of card
21:02:58 <ais523> zzo38: if X is very large, though, you don't bother overloading it, you just aim it at your opponent
21:03:12 <ais523> the existing XBB card outright kills them in that situation
21:03:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know
21:05:03 <b_jonas> right, just Fireball them for 20
21:05:52 <zzo38> Fireball is red card though
21:06:13 <zzo38> And if they have a lot of life points, it isn't working
21:06:30 <zzo38> Even then, depending on the cube you are playing, some cards might not even be available
21:06:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: Clearly which card you choose depend on blue or black.
21:07:04 <b_jonas> do we have an oracle text and rules quoting bot on this channel?
21:07:08 <zzo38> (Or, red, green, white)
21:07:14 <zzo38> Not on this channel, I think
21:07:54 <b_jonas> where does HackEgo listen other than on this channel?
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21:08:25 <zzo38> You can still send private messages although I don't know if there are any other channels that it does.
21:08:39 <b_jonas> it listens to private messages? that changes EVERYTHING
21:09:13 <zzo38> Any writes to filesystem made by private messages are still logged though, but as far as I know reads aren't logged.
21:09:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's no problem is messages are logged
21:10:00 <b_jonas> I could upload a compressed oracle text database through private message in a few hours I think
21:10:08 <b_jonas> or can it download straight from web?
21:11:48 <zzo38> I don't know. But even the existing database they use some non-ASCII characters, and still includes reminder text, so for those reasons it isn't as good as it should be (actually there are some other problems with the text too)
21:12:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's the problem with non-ascii characters?
21:12:57 <b_jonas> I have more problem with flip cards and split cards and double-faced cards which they keep messing up inconsistently
21:13:46 <b_jonas> though my main problem is that I still haven't made my scripts work with the new new Gatherer, so my only source of up to date Oracle text is from Yawgatog's, which is actually quite consistent and fixes all the flip cards somehow
21:14:12 <b_jonas> I should fix it but I'm lazy
21:14:19 <b_jonas> the new new Gatherer is just very stupid
21:14:50 <coppro> b_jonas: yawgatog maintains one
21:14:59 <b_jonas> do some of you download the full oracle text database from a source independent of yawgatog?
21:15:04 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, and that's my only source right now
21:15:31 <b_jonas> coppro: before they created the new new Gatherer, I could use the new gatherer to download every card in a single page, and then parse it
21:15:50 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if the new new gatherer allows that, but even if it does, I have to rewrite my scripts because they changed the format
21:16:10 <b_jonas> I don't shy away from downloading hundreds of pages, I do that all the time, but I'm not interested enough about M:tG to do it these days
21:16:12 <zzo38> Yes, but even Yawgatog's has reminder text and stuff. I would prefer the format: Always {} for symbols, ~ when the card name refers to "this card", and only ASCII characters.
21:16:34 <zzo38> I also found a JSON version, which has the same problems.
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21:17:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: why "~" for "this card"? doesn't it already use {} for mana symbols and tap symbols, and [] for loyalty?
21:17:22 <coppro> zzo38: reminder text is a part of the Oracle text
21:17:22 <zzo38> But, if you do use the JSON version you can use a SQLite extension that I made up for reading JSON files
21:17:35 <b_jonas> I don't recall if they fixed flip cards, but I think they haven't
21:17:36 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know it is, but my opinion it shouldn't be
21:17:44 <coppro> ASCII is not correct, because the card names do not use exclusively ASCII
21:18:12 <zzo38> Yes, but you can translate the card names into ASCII in a standardized format
21:18:19 <coppro> yes, but you shouldn't need to
21:18:25 <coppro> get out of the 20th century
21:19:27 <zzo38> You should use ASCII when possible.
21:20:02 <coppro> you should use UTF-8 when possible
21:20:27 <b_jonas> coppro: exactly. Scéance; Æther Figment; Ærathi Berserker (probably the craziest one); Looter <i>il</i>-Kor (or is it Looter <i>il-</i>Kor?); Kongming, “Sleeping Dragon”; “Ach! Hans, Run!”
21:20:49 <b_jonas> the craziest is when flavor text contains unitalicized parts
21:21:11 <zzo38> No I believe you are wrong, you should use ASCII when possible, also converting the italics to normal texts.
21:21:33 <coppro> the italics I don't mind
21:21:33 <zzo38> If ASCII won't do then you can use UTF-8 and other formats, but you should try to use ASCII
21:21:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: what would be the ascii for all of those card names above?
21:21:39 <coppro> but I don't know why you would prefer ascii
21:21:45 <coppro> especially when ascii is demonstrably unfit for the task
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21:22:17 <zzo38> Replace the ligature with "AE", the accented with no accents, quotation marks straight, and italic letters straightened. For foreign card names you should not use ASCII of course.
21:23:56 <b_jonas> the fun part of en- and il- is that they're printed in italic in text boxes everywhere and in title bars of modern frame cards, but as upright in title bars of old frames
21:24:22 <b_jonas> so it's possible that it's not actually a significant part of the card name
21:25:29 <b_jonas> besides en-<tribe> and il-<tribe>, what other cards get italicized text in their names?
21:26:15 <zzo38> I think maybe a few Un-cards might, you should check
21:26:16 <coppro> I believe there is at least one
21:26:18 <b_jonas> I guess the italicization of en- and il- is probably a design detail you should ignore, like the black and white mana symbols in Mirrodin text boxes
21:26:37 <b_jonas> as in, the italic has no rules significance, and you don't have to reproduce the italic when naming a card
21:27:08 <zzo38> The deck format I use requires that all card names are written in ASCII format, too
21:27:50 <zzo38> (They also must use the English names, even if you have foreign cards in your deck)
21:28:10 <b_jonas> also, the Gatherer doesn't show italic in the card name or card text in the Oracle text, which shows it probably doesn't matter
21:28:47 <coppro> there's also Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One)
21:28:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you asciify Ærathi Berserker? with or without the Æ?
21:29:11 <zzo38> By replacing it with "AE"
21:29:12 <coppro> which has the parenthetical typset smaller in the title box, but not the text box, and the name /Urza's Legacy/ italicized in the text box, but not the title box
21:29:29 <zzo38> (Although it is also case-insensitive, at least for unquoted text)
21:29:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, with AE? not with Ae or nothing?
21:29:59 <zzo38> "Ae" is also valid, as it is case-insensitive.
21:30:35 <zzo38> (And actually "Ae" is what I have used, but it doesn't matter as it is defined to be case-insensitive)
21:30:54 <b_jonas> Then there's Our Market Research
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21:31:50 <b_jonas> coppro: yeah... the full name does fit in an irc line
21:31:52 <b_jonas> Our Market Research Shows That Players Like Really Long Card Names So We Made this Card to Have the Absolute Longest Card Name Ever Elemental
21:37:21 <b_jonas> although there's at least one card with rules text so long it doesn't fit in a single irc line
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21:37:33 <b_jonas> so a bot would have to know how to split to multiple lines
21:38:15 <b_jonas> Dance of the Dead and Master of the Hunt have quite long texts
21:39:00 <coppro> AFAIK Ice Cauldron still holds the record
21:39:22 <b_jonas> coppro: probably depends on how you turn to character sequences
21:39:29 <b_jonas> it's shorter in my version
21:39:47 <shachaf> Are you counting Oracle text or printed text?
21:39:55 <zzo38> I think that making a RVTP server and RVTP client would help. (The server does not have to be SQLite, although it might be easier if it is. If the client is SQLite that probably also makes it easier)
21:39:59 <coppro> Ice Cauldron's oracle text is too long to be printed
21:40:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: oracle, but in my old dump that's a bit reformatted
21:40:22 <b_jonas> coppro: Dance of the Dead's too probably
21:40:24 <shachaf> I think Illusionary Mask's Oracle text is longer?
21:41:22 <zzo38> (But SQLite does not yet support virtual table modules that can read LIMIT and OFFSET clauses)
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21:41:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: my dump favors Dance of the Dead unfairly because I turn newlines to three characters
21:42:10 <b_jonas> Dance of the Dead has three
21:42:17 <b_jonas> also it's old, I think Illu Mask has changed since
21:42:27 <shachaf> It's probably fair as far as space utilization on the card goes.
21:42:29 <b_jonas> how you treat mana symbols and such might also change stuff
21:43:12 <b_jonas> Ice Cauldron may have changed since too
21:44:39 <b_jonas> Camouflage (which has remainder text) and Riftmarked Knight and Tombstone Stairwell are also somewhat long
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22:03:57 <tswett> !bfjoust neuralnet (>(+)*20>(-)*6)*5(>)*6([(+)*0[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(++++++-)*4[-]]>)*5([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1
22:04:11 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_neuralnet: 6.6
22:04:20 <tswett> So... how good is that?
22:04:58 <tswett> Aha, here it is. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
22:05:59 <boily> wow. haven't seen jousting in a loooong time.
22:07:15 <tswett> So, growth2 and preparation both win the great majority of the time. There is no program that beats both.
22:07:45 <tswett> Oh, what an interesting NN URL.
22:07:45 <tswett> http://www.unicode: esolangs.org/list
22:09:09 <tswett> This one's pretty interesting too: http://www./nick.com/8018/19/100/00621
22:11:29 -!- |f`-`|f has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:11:58 <boily> I highly suspect that those aren't quite valid URLs...
22:11:59 <oerjan> <Aearnus> http://ideone.com/ZqytvO <-- not that i particularly suspect you, but if you want people to visit your links, it's a good idea to speak enough to prove you're not a spammer
22:12:09 -!- |f`-`|f has joined.
22:12:34 <Aearnus> I just thought it was weird and wanted to share it
22:12:53 <oerjan> ok i didn't notice you had spoken before i joined.
22:13:01 <boily> Aearnus: isn't that the top link from /r/lolphp today?
22:13:15 <Aearnus> From today? Not sure, I was looking through all time
22:13:32 <Aearnus> Also I used to hang around here under a different name, CrazyM4n
22:14:49 <Aearnus> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:CrazyM4n
22:15:02 <boily> looks like we never weren't there at the same time and/or spacetime combination.
22:15:44 <oerjan> Gregor has such an incredibly stable idleness
22:15:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CrazyM4n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43679&oldid=41432 * CrazyM4n * (+71)
22:18:53 <oerjan> Aearnus: aha, welcome back
22:19:30 <oerjan> there's a small formatting bug in the codu logs: the nickname field isn't _quite_ wide enough if someone maxes it out
22:19:56 <oerjan> which doesn't happen that often, but happened today
22:20:33 <oerjan> and then it line wraps
22:21:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:22:54 <tswett> Yeah, when's the last time Gregor spoke?
22:23:21 <oerjan> a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away
22:23:50 <oerjan> the 17 days whois gives _might_ be correct, or not.
22:25:34 <oerjan> he changed nick on the 17th of july
22:26:11 <oerjan> the next day i nagged him about codu's clock, which has since been fixed
22:26:32 <oerjan> but no actual speaking was involved.
22:27:07 <boily> shellochaf. please be aware that that was a horrible pun.
22:27:53 <oerjan> that pun was definitely fishy
22:28:26 * boily mapoles shachaf and then oerjan on the rebound
22:29:41 <tswett> Is a mapole a maypole?
22:29:53 * oerjan counts this as a great success
22:30:00 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
22:30:47 <tswett> And then if you keep looking at the definitions, you end up getting thrown for a loop.
22:30:59 <oerjan> the spork and corkscrew would certainly be appropriate for festivities
22:31:31 <boily> If I ever open up a café or something, I'm very tempted to call it “The Spork & Corkscrew”.
22:32:16 <shachaf> Really, you wouldn't call it the Sporkscrew?
22:32:18 <oerjan> will it have a whistling moose figure
22:32:23 <shachaf> i find that difficult to believe hth
22:32:57 <oerjan> sporkscrews are hard to hold properly tdnh
22:35:17 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -1 \?
22:35:19 <HackEgo> xargs: invalid option -- '1' \ Usage: xargs [-0prtx] [--interactive] [--null] [-d|--delimiter=delim] \ [-E eof-str] [-e[eof-str]] [--eof[=eof-str]] \ [-L max-lines] [-l[max-lines]] [--max-lines[=max-lines]] \ [-I replace-str] [-i[replace-str]] [--replace[=replace-str]] \ [-n max-args] [--max-args=max-args] \ [-s
22:35:32 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -n 1 \?
22:35:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/thwackamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ wisdom/whatchamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:36:18 <oerjan> `` cat wisdom/*acallit
22:36:19 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. \ A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful.
22:36:42 <boily> (probably going to have to call the place with a French name: «La cuillourchette et le tire-bouchon»)
22:37:07 <boily> uh, anybody know how to call a spork in French?
22:40:01 <oerjan> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuill%C3%A8re-fourchette hth
22:41:38 <boily> I prefer cuillourchette :D
22:43:39 <oerjan> from wikipedia's list, it appears that romance languages have portmanteauphobia
22:44:13 <boily> PORTMANTONS TOUTES LES CHOSES!
22:46:35 <oerjan> otoh i cannot recall a norwegian word for it, by analogy with swedish/icelandic it should be skjaffel
22:46:58 * boily is scared by the "skj"
22:47:46 * boily thwackamacalls shachaf
22:48:17 <oerjan> boily: it's pronounced approximately like english sh, although possibly more retroflex
22:48:58 <oerjan> it might depend a lot on dialect
22:49:48 <oerjan> as i mentioned earlier, wikipedia cannot agree with itself on which sh-like sound it is
22:50:01 <boily> that still haven't been resolved yet?
22:50:18 <oerjan> well i didn't bring it up
22:50:28 <oerjan> i'm not enough of a phonologist to make a decision
22:50:34 <shachaf> boily: oerjan doesn't like it when you bring up wikipedia issues to him hth
22:50:52 <oerjan> also it's on 3 different articles
22:50:54 <boily> I'll unbring the issue then.
22:51:39 <oerjan> i suspect it may differ between the dialects that have r-dental retroflex merging and those that have uvular r with no merging
22:52:09 <boily> time for me to saturate what passes as my brains with doubtful things and a good wash of ethylic liquefaction.
22:52:26 <oerjan> (the former may or may not consistently pronounce "rs" as the same sound. i cannot quite convince myself whether or not my own dialect does.)
22:52:26 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *THWACK* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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22:52:59 <oerjan> mostly due to the difficulty of finding any minimal pairs between sj and rs
22:53:48 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: {{{}}{{{}}{{}}}{{}}} (www.adiirc.com)).
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22:54:03 <oerjan> (the former only happen at the beginning of syllables, except when used as a forced spelling on loanwords. the latter only happens at the end of syllables.)
22:55:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: can there be a minimal pair involving two adjacent words/
22:55:23 <oerjan> hm wait the first part isn't quite true
22:55:56 <b_jonas> like, foo sjbar versus foors bar
22:56:14 <Sgeo> Perl 6 keeps putting me in mind of lenses
22:57:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: that was what i was trying to think of. Mosjøen vs. Morsjøen, except it's not really rs in the latter
22:57:50 <oerjan> i think that might be as close as you get. and i cannot convince myself whether i really pronounce them differently.
22:58:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's also no convincing minimal pair between "t" and "ty" in Hungarian. the best I have is "Nagyatád" vs "nagyatyád" but I'm not sure the latter is a word
22:59:40 <b_jonas> that's basically because "ty" is very rare
23:02:18 <oerjan> i recall reading that h vs. ng also have no minimal pairs, possibly goes for both english and norwegian
23:02:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, in what language?
23:03:03 <b_jonas> is that because ng goes only before a g, but h never goes before a g?
23:03:05 <oerjan> um i just mentioned two hth
23:03:23 <oerjan> it's because ng never starts a syllable and h always does
23:03:43 <oerjan> probably there's some compound exception there too
23:04:39 <b_jonas> oh, that's how "h" works in English? ok
23:05:00 <oerjan> hm well when actually pronounced
23:05:18 <b_jonas> I've no idea when "h" is actually pronounced in English. it seems random.
23:05:32 <oerjan> i guess it goes better for norwegian, then
23:05:44 <b_jonas> but I'm quite sure "h" doesn't have to start a syllable in Hungarian (though it often does)
23:05:53 -!- aretecode has quit (Quit: Toodaloo).
23:06:51 <b_jonas> that said, a minimal pair between h and ng might be difficult still because you'd have to find a word with "hk" or "hg" which is somewhat rare
23:07:00 <oerjan> we don't use it to form digraphs, either
23:07:19 <b_jonas> and it's especially rare if you don't want it in a boundary of a compound where it would be very hard to put an ng sound
23:08:28 <b_jonas> um, "h" is used to form digraphs in Hungarian, namely "ch" and "kh" exclusively in borrowings (mostly from ancient Greek or German) and "th" (in old traditional fancy spelling of noble family names)
23:09:06 <oerjan> i suppose we have that old fancy th too. (viz. Thue)
23:09:33 <b_jonas> even though "ch" and "kh" appear only in borrowings but is permanent in the sense that it is kept forever no matter how hungarianized the borrowing becomes, so they're effectively real digraphs
23:09:47 <oerjan> in normalized spelling, ch/kh -> k, anyway
23:11:10 <b_jonas> "th" is not used productively, but kept in well-known old names including "Kossuth" and "Batthyány"
23:14:44 <b_jonas> also, "h" is supposedly silent in some words where it appears at the end of the syllable, but nobody knows which words they are, basically it's silent when it'd be hard to pronounce (or by tradition or something) but that differs for everyone
23:17:55 <b_jonas> I think the random silent "h" is a rule made up by teachers to screw with students who have to learn it
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23:21:05 <tswett> Do we Anglophones have a lot of silent Hs?
23:22:13 <b_jonas> tswett: supposedly yes, but at _start_ of words, where Hungarian doesn't have any
23:22:32 <b_jonas> and it seems totally random
23:22:38 <b_jonas> I think "honor" has a silent "h"
23:23:00 <tswett> And then there's the word "herb".
23:23:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think English has crazier fahncy noble family names
23:23:02 <oerjan> it's because it's mostly in words inherited from french
23:24:01 <b_jonas> English has something for silent consonants at start of words, I never understood it
23:24:30 <b_jonas> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Silent_initial_consonants has a partial list with written consonant clusters where the first letter is silent
23:24:51 <b_jonas> but _those_ are at least consistent in that it either always happens for a letter pair or never
23:25:03 <b_jonas> the initial "h" is apparently random, or at least I don't know the logi
23:25:23 <oerjan> the logic is that it's silent if it was borrowed from french that way hth
23:25:44 <b_jonas> ah yes, the most famous English one is I think Featherstonehaugh
23:25:44 <oerjan> which might depend on _when_ it was borrowed, i guess.
23:25:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, and French has random logic for initial "h" too
23:26:42 <oerjan> i think that's because french lost it, regained it, then lost it again, or something?
23:27:12 <b_jonas> there's also "ch", which in French is pronounced as /S/ most of the time, but sometimes as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek or something.
23:27:40 <b_jonas> English does that worse, because it has both "th" and "ch" which are sometimes pronounced as /t/ or /k/ when borrowed from greek
23:28:08 <b_jonas> and "chthonic" is the absolute most riddiculous combination of all that
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23:29:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, it's pronounced with a /T/ or /kT/, not with a /t/
23:29:57 <b_jonas> I think "th" is pronounced as a /t/ when it's borrowed from latin or french, not when it's borrowed from greek, or something
23:30:16 <b_jonas> whereas "ch" is pronounced as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek?
23:30:26 <b_jonas> I think you just have to learn the individual words
23:30:56 <oerjan> i know that greek changed its pronunciation from /t/ to /T/
23:31:03 <oerjan> so it might depend on time again
23:31:21 <oerjan> (technically, _aspirated_ /t/)
23:31:37 <oerjan> which is of course the usual for germanic languages
23:32:29 <oerjan> and not for hungarian afair
23:33:25 <oerjan> (germanic sound change was /t/ -> /t^h/ and /t^h/ -> /T/)
23:35:44 <oerjan> /d/ -> /t^h/ and /t/ -> /T/, i mean
23:35:56 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law
23:36:31 <oren> th in english is pronounced as a voiceless interdental fricative, except in a very limited set of words where it is voiced
23:36:42 <oerjan> norwegian since turned the /T/ back into /t^h/
23:37:28 <b_jonas> some relevant words with the rarer pronunciation are: Thomas, echo, chameleon, chaos, character, chemistry, choir, cholera, chronic/chronicle/chronology/chronometer
23:37:46 <oren> "the", "this", "their", "then", "there", "that" are all voiced
23:37:51 <oerjan> or sometimes, if it had been voiced, /d/ or //, iirc
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23:38:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't have any trouble with the ch ones, but i was pretty old until i fully realized the th exceptions even existed
23:40:21 <oerjan> southern, northern, but not in south or north
23:40:22 <shachaf> oerjan: you probably pronounce "chronicles" with "ik" rather than "ike"
23:40:49 <shachaf> that's certainly how i pronounced it until i had to learn the english pronunciations of the books of the bible
23:41:26 <oerjan> shachaf: argh wiktionary doesn't have the pronunciation of that
23:41:52 <oren> shachaf: I think that most english speakers say kron ik lls
23:42:06 <oren> where ll is a sylabic L
23:42:13 <shachaf> i used to be among those english speakers
23:43:06 <oren> etymylocially it should be kron eek lls
23:44:13 <oerjan> oren: that's not very convincing, you have to consider the great vowel shift
23:44:21 <oerjan> if you are doing actual etymology
23:44:46 <oren> well my oxford english dictionary has a short i
23:44:57 <oren> for "chronicle"
23:45:03 <shachaf> maybe that's how they pronounce it in oxford
23:45:16 * oerjan notes that google translate uses short i in its pronunciation
23:45:35 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=define:chronicle hth
23:46:13 <oren> that reminds me I need to add IPA to my font
23:46:15 <quintopia> oerjan: what do you think is the probability that a random TM is universal as states and/or symbols goes to infinity?
23:46:29 <oerjan> shachaf: did you know that define: doesn't work if you're using google with norwegian settings tdnh
23:46:51 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:chronicle hth
23:47:35 <oerjan> shachaf: well that's definitely not the "ike" sound
23:47:35 <zzo38> I have partially fixed my gopher service now; not all files are available yet, but the server works
23:47:49 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, i was pulling your leg
23:48:10 <b_jonas> what are the most common exceptions for "th"? besides Thomas, there's apparently Thames, Esther, Mathias, Mathilda, plus a few words where the th is apparently simply silent because Englishman are lazy to pronounce consonant clusters
23:48:12 <oerjan> shachaf: pulling my leg is scow tdnh
23:48:29 <b_jonas> where Mathilda is some obsolate spelling of Matilda
23:48:38 <shachaf> oerjan: I went through the books of the bible and kept laughing at how ridiculous the translations to English were.
23:48:55 <shachaf> I wouldn't be surprised if it was pronounced "chronicles" instead of "chronicles", I said.
23:49:10 <shachaf> And since then I've been pronouncing it that way.
23:49:32 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:49:38 <shachaf> (Actually my last sentence is the only thing I said on this topic that wasn't completely true.)
23:52:48 <oerjan> only because you just hinted at implications rather than outright stating them, i guess
23:53:43 <shachaf> one might say that you were pulling your own leg
23:54:06 <oerjan> "I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too."
23:54:35 <shachaf> I did stop myself from typing that last part.
23:55:04 <quintopia> oh okay. it's quote mitch hedberg hour. i approve. carry on.
23:56:23 <zzo38> I have a dictionary too it says with the short sound
23:57:13 <zzo38> (The dictionary I have on my shelf is Webster though)
23:57:59 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't really know him so i cannot quote any more. btw i'm not sure of that probability, and it might be different for states and symbols...
23:58:26 <HackEgo> Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
23:58:37 <shachaf> http://chu.stanford.edu/live/#7
23:58:52 <zzo38> I thought it is IV hour
23:59:07 <zzo38> (Almost is V hour)
23:59:12 <shachaf> I would say that it's XVI hour.
23:59:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it is
23:59:48 <zzo38> You aren't supposed to use more than 12 hours with roman numbers