00:02:40 <zzo38> Can a flute be used as a blow gun?
00:02:44 <tswett> Is there a significant rules difference between artifacts and non-Aura enchantments?
00:03:56 <zzo38> tswett: Mainly only what subtypes are possible, I think
00:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44163&oldid=44158 * Oerjan * (+0) order
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00:36:02 <tswett> I think I'm gonna try coming up with a decklist. Put those deck-building skills to use.
00:39:04 <tswett> Mono red, because who uses multicolored decks these days?
00:39:42 <tswett> Ooh, I can simulate a draft.
00:47:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44164&oldid=43593 * Oerjan * (-19) Some proofreading
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01:04:45 <Jafet> You could upgrade by three letters to weechat.
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01:17:09 <hppavilion1> I want to invent a multiplayer programming game
01:18:00 <fowl> How about a multiprogramming player game
01:19:02 <myname> what is the difference between a prlgramming game and a multiplayer programming game?
01:20:58 <Jafet> Presumably "multiplayer" excludes games with fewer than two players.
01:21:01 <hppavilion1> Can't Code Golf be considered a single player programming game?
01:22:57 <Jafet> Massively multilingual programming golf
01:23:18 <myname> i don"t know. programming involves someth like a direct battle between programs for mei
01:23:45 <tswett> Multiplayer programming game. Hmm.
01:25:03 <myname> how is core war not a multiplayer programming game?
01:26:31 <tswett> Whelp, I've created a deck list... now what?
01:27:40 <tswett> And hope that someone decides to playtest it for me and give me detailed feedback.
01:28:04 <tswett> I'll chuck this decklist and make something out of my own cards.
01:32:28 <myname> i am disappointed that programminggames.org does not have listings by language
01:32:49 <myname> i.e. how do i find a haskell programming gamem
01:33:44 <hppavilion1> MY programming game will work over TCP and be realtime
01:34:27 <myname> i am not sure if i like realtime
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01:36:01 <myname> i am wondering about a programming game rl
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01:40:02 <myname> the wiki at programminggames.org has a category named programming games
01:40:30 <pikhq> Argh! I have a reason to get a New 3DS now!
01:41:08 <pikhq> Cartridge slot on my 3DS is jacked up.
01:46:29 <Sgeo_> Robozzle is still Silverlight :(
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01:52:55 <zzo38> I have made a version of Robozzle in DOS once I think
01:53:04 <zzo38> Maybe we can remake it on QUACKVM too
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02:03:01 <myname> http://programminggames.org/GRID-WARS.ashx
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02:10:39 <myname> that site pretry much sucks
02:23:02 <zzo38> As it turn out the scroll lock does stop xterm from automatically scrolling, but the scroll lock light on my keyboard is broke (so I just have to remember)
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02:43:48 <zzo38> My version of Robozzle had some enhancements such as you could have one star that must be collected last, you could have subroutine calls placed on the board (which if picked up call the corresponding subroutine), if any tile has an item but no floor you can walk just once (unless you use a command to place a floor there), and a few other stuff too
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02:46:31 <fowl> Anybody ever played bugbrain
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02:47:17 <zzo38> I do not know what that is.
02:48:33 <fowl> http://www.biologic.com.au/bugbrain/
02:48:55 <fowl> You have to build neural nets to control a bug to complete some objectives
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02:54:34 <Sgeo_> zzo38, how does that subroutine work, does it contain the actual commands, or can it refer to the user's made functions?
02:54:53 <Sgeo_> (The ones you can place in the puzzle)
02:55:24 <zzo38> Sgeo_: It refers to the function coded by the player.
02:56:57 <zzo38> The level could also define what commands are available, so it is possible that some subroutines might not be callable in the other way, or it might be the case that only left turns are possible and no right turns, or you cannot set a condition for blue floors, or blank commands are not available so you must fill in all available slots, etc
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03:11:56 <zzo38> Can you play Minesweeper with scratching cards?
03:13:53 <zzo38> I have once invented a variant of video poker for use with scratching cards. You have to choose ahead of time how many cards you want to discard, but after you discard each card and get the replacement you can use that information to decide which card to discard next.
03:21:16 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone have any ideas for slightly esoteric ISAs?
03:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> Something about the same level of esotericness as my variable-length instruction VM
03:22:57 <zzo38> Someone has in their user page in esolang some stuff about VAX instructions, some of which are variable-length, and they have other ideas too, some of which are too strange to probably make real VAX systems like.
03:27:49 <zzo38> It is a old kind of computer machine.
03:27:56 <pikhq> The VAX was a popular CISC architecture from DEC, and used to be the standard thing you'd run Unix on.
03:28:23 <pikhq> It was also more-or-less the 32-bit version of the PDP-11.
03:28:42 <zzo38> Some of the instructions are a bit strange, and the user page in esolang wiki mentioning it also has a list of even more strange extensions for VAX which do not exist.
03:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I have VLA instructions, should I add an EXEC instruction?
03:33:17 <Sgeo_> Do the FRC Regular Ordinances have to specify that The Judge is not eligible twice?
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03:35:27 <Sgeo_> "(d)When a valid rule is posted, the author's eligibility is extended to 14 days after its posting, and e receives an authorship cap if e does not already have one. Also, if more than 14 days have elapsed since the start of the round, then every other eligible member with an authorship cap has eir eligibility extended to a minimum of 4 days after the rule's posting, to give em adequate time to respond."
03:35:31 <Sgeo_> This looks easy to game
03:45:22 <oerjan> that looks like they added it after my time
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03:47:50 <Sgeo_> Yeah "They do change, of course, evolving in response to discovered flaws or other changes, such as the extension of the game timetable to using two-week timeouts in response to the professional maturation of the players, and the introduction of automatic extensions, which changes not only prevent sniping races but also usually gives a solid break between rounds."
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03:55:43 <zzo38> I have seen some different Minesweeper variants and I have some of my own ideas too. I listed some at: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mines
03:56:35 <pikhq> My mind was blown by the first one honestly.
04:06:19 <Jafet> Huh, knights do have eight adjacent squares
04:10:27 <zzo38> Yes, it does. This is a variant I have actually seen though.
04:18:24 <zzo38> Is there a standard METAR code to mean no data can be received?
04:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have heard of a wraparound mode for Minesweeper that exists on a torus
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05:34:20 <bender> guy is zero indexing better or one indexing?
05:34:34 <bender> what would you prefer?
05:34:51 <bender> i'm writing a draft for an esolang, so just wanted some thoughts
05:42:40 <zzo38> I would prefer zero based indexing
05:42:53 <zzo38> But for some purpose one based works better.
05:43:13 <zzo38> (But if you have macros, you could use macros to make one-based)
05:43:39 <zzo38> At least in BASIC (and I think also Pascal) you can use whatever range you want, so you can start at -3 if you want (I have used this)
05:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I would recommend you use 0-based indexing while allowing indexes to be any floating-point integer xD
05:44:33 <oren_> that would much simplify insertion, certainly
05:45:07 <oren_> to put somthing between a[0] and a[1] just do a[0.5] = 234
05:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> NEW TERM: esokernel: noun: The part of an Esolang that is esoteric
05:45:51 <hppavilion[1]> (if we pretend LOLCODE is an esolang in the first place)
05:46:54 <zzo38> I don't remember what number I used exactly, but I have used negative numbers in the range, as well as using positive numbers greater than 1 for the start.
05:47:41 <bender> hppavilion[1], It's inspired for Befunge, Brainfuck and Underload
05:47:46 <zzo38> I forget what I used it for
05:47:48 <bender> I'm uploading the second draft now
05:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: WTF there's a link on your talk page with the gopher protocol
05:53:55 <bender> http://benderx2.github.io/R3X/pematt/spec.txt
05:54:14 <bender> it's too prototype to be added to the wiki atm
05:54:53 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I'm making an ISA/Executable thing/machine language/whatever :)
05:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm going to make an assembly language for it.
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05:55:53 <bender> I've also made my own little ISA.
05:55:58 <bender> And a programming language for it.
05:56:10 <bender> http://benderx2.github.io/R3X/
05:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> I created the Zodiac Working Group as an edeavor to create actual, useful languages with just a /hint*/ of estericism :)
05:59:16 <bender> esoterrorism - The act of writing a high level language -> Esoteric lang translator, writing a useful program in that high level language and when someone asks for the source, convert that high level language to esolang of your choice, and giving that as source.
05:59:39 <bender> hppavilion[1], eh. it's quite alpha. and has bugs and stuff atm.
05:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> Dynamic linking? Multithreading? I'm NEVER going to get there ;-;
06:00:07 <bender> well, it just involves parsing file headers.
06:00:15 <bender> and loading them into memory.
06:00:15 <zzo38> I have recently designed the VM but only with an assembler no other programming language is available.
06:00:31 <bender> hppavilion[1], my own.
06:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I got that. Mine uses a short null-terminated string as a header followed by a flat binary. Do you know of a better way to do it?
06:01:04 <bender> https://github.com/Benderx2/R3X/blob/master/src/include/r3x_format.h <- that is mostly it.
06:01:18 <bender> hppavilion[1], I'm trying for that.
06:01:44 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes there is a link on my talk page with the gopher protocol. Currently that link does not work, although I intend to fix it soon enough
06:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> The final version will be either ASM, C, or C++-based
06:02:36 <bender> yeah, python's a pretty nice language to work your prototypes in
06:03:27 <bender> less bullshitting around with petty stuff like pointers, random linking errors, etc.
06:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> My VM has the added feature of variable argument length for instructions
06:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> The instruction format is <2 byte instruction><1 byte argument length indicator>*<n 8-byte instructions>
06:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> TaurusVM is going to actually support multiple different ISAs
06:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> Do you have any suggestions for esoteric qualities to mix into an ISA?
06:07:15 <zzo38> The one I designed uses 16-bit memory cells and the instruction format (including argument formats) is included in the same cell with the instruction
06:08:00 <zzo38> There are 32 opcodes, and each instruction has exactly three arguments, as well as a result and a predicate
06:08:41 <zzo38> I don't know what suggestion for esoteric qualities to mix into an ISA, but one of my ideas has been you don't need a separate jump instruction if you just do move instruction with PC as the register.
06:09:02 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Almost; I have a number of banks, each one has the length followed by raw data
06:09:20 <hppavilion[1]> But my goal with the ZWG is to use the esoteric to make programming easier/more fun, not harder
06:09:22 <bender> I don't like encoding instructions for some reason lol @ x86.
06:09:44 <zzo38> I do not find it harder though
06:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, a good language won't let you tell the difference
06:10:21 <zzo38> Yes, with the PC as a register. Same to return from subroutine you just make "POP PC" or whatever
06:10:41 <zzo38> Or maybe you need to also tell it which register is used as the stack pointer too
06:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> But it just seems to me like I should use *just* enough esoteric that it doesn't force the user to mess with things to do basic tasks
06:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> That was a very hard sentence to phrase, and I still don't like the way it came out
06:11:46 <bender> I had this urge to write a minimal x86 emulator, after I experimented a bit around with GNU as, and ndisasm. I thought I would write instructions and feed it to as, which I would then disassemble with ndisasm, hence I would be able to find values for opcodes for each instruction.
06:11:54 <zzo38> I have also had idea that you don't need immediate addressing mode either; use indirect register with postincrement mode (such can also be used to pop from stack too).
06:12:01 <bender> Turned out, the x86 encoding is like brainfuck, just 2 steps ahead.
06:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> bender: Do you have any ideas for weird, but not restricting, ISAs
06:13:24 <bender> all stack based ISAs sound weird to me. :)
06:14:00 <bender> well it depends really
06:14:32 <zzo38> My ideas do not restrict; they make it less restrictive.
06:14:38 <bender> I learned assembly through register based, and so when I learned about stack based machines, my first reaction was: "Hey I need to store my result somewhere less volatile!"
06:15:48 <bender> although turned out you don't really need to, it just works like that. but still, it sounds weird to me.
06:16:47 <zzo38> In Forth you can use ! command to store the result, and @ to read it back, so you can use such thing even in stack-base machine
06:16:59 <zzo38> If you have two-bits addressing mode then you might have: R, [R], [R++], [[R++]]. And then if you have fifteen registers, you have then six bits in total for each operand.
06:17:55 <zzo38> (I think these would be the most useful addressing modes, especially if stack pointer and program counter are also some of the sixteen registers)
06:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> bender: You wouldn't happen to feel like joining the ZWG, would you?
06:19:35 <zzo38> I also had idea, one of the bits of the instruction word can be used to tell it whether or not the instruction affects flags
06:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> bender: The Zodiac Working Group: Dedicated to producing useful languages with just a /hint*/ of the esoteric
06:23:06 <bender> because that's exactly what I'm doing
06:23:38 <bender> Protocol for Esoteric Minimalism and avoiding the Turing Tarpit. <- I think that exactly means that.
06:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> Discussion of things when we don't want to do them here can take place on ##zodiac (ex: We don't want to spam the others)
06:25:49 <zzo38> Are you intending to name stuff after astrological signs (it seems you started that)? You may run out as there is 12 signs by definition
06:27:37 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: We can also use other constellations and star names xD
06:28:04 <hppavilion[1]> Not everything will be, just the stuff that we feel like naming after it
06:28:44 <zzo38> Even constellations there is only 88, but yes you can do others too if you run out I suppose
06:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> With Luna as my witness, I swear I will reshape the heavens themselves to give me more names!
06:30:15 <zzo38> (Constellations are not the same as astrological signs anyways, even though some are named the same; a sign is 30 degrees of the ecliptic and is a unit of angular measurement while a constellation is an area in the celestial sphere, so it is different. Many people confuse them for each other)
06:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> It's not confusion, it's knowing that I have ADHD and will likely start more than 12 projects xD
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12:00:56 <ashl> how unfortunate
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14:17:56 <quintopia> could one use a halting oracle to decide the Rice's Theorem problem?
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14:24:13 <oerjan> hm maybe you need to go more than one level up there
14:25:53 <myname> omg! imagine... a programming game moba
14:26:02 <oerjan> quintopia: i think maybe you need halting oracle for the halting oracle too
14:26:45 <oerjan> because you need to iterate to check whether each input halts, and then you need to test whether _that_ iteration halts.
14:29:05 <oerjan> of course if the property you're testing is trickier, you must go even further
14:29:37 <oerjan> but this would be enough to test things like "returns 0 for all inputs"
14:30:11 <oerjan> "returns 0 for 0" is simple enough that you need only one level.
14:30:26 <oerjan> so it definitely depends on which property you want to test
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14:33:08 <tswett> Does Magic have any game objects which can be in a zone other than the command zone, but cannot be on the stack?
14:33:15 <tswett> Come to think of it, can tokens ever be on the stack?
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14:56:10 <oerjan> goddammit the neighbors left their dog barking again
14:56:52 <oerjan> it tends to happen only on weekends now. i think the dog got used to them being away other days.
15:07:50 <Jafet> Could you debark it?
15:08:42 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/140847
15:09:28 <Taneb> I may have been a bit aaaah again
15:10:26 <Taneb> Lets you almost do "x < y < z"
15:11:56 <b_jonas> Taneb: hehe. now do it in C++ as well, with a custom numeric class.
15:13:00 <Taneb> b_jonas, the person sitting next to me is ON THE CASE
15:13:12 <Taneb> Well done on the nerd snipe
15:13:32 <Taneb> (I barely know C++)
15:13:58 <b_jonas> try ruby as well… hmm wait, that won't work, I don't think you can overload boolification in ruby, so you can't make if a<b work.
15:14:16 <Taneb> I really do not know many programming languages
15:14:48 <b_jonas> I guess you could do it in perl. That's bound to be possible.
15:14:54 <b_jonas> You can definitely overload boolification in perl.
15:15:06 <Taneb> You can overload everything in perl
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15:27:02 <oerjan> now overload perl to make it underload hth
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15:29:50 <Taneb> oerjan, I do not know perl very well
15:29:57 <oren_> yay we're playing Manu Chao!
15:31:20 <oren_> my parents listen to a lot of crap i don't like, manu chao is one band they like that I also like
15:32:51 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgjiPBCsss
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15:34:22 <b_jonas> oren_: I see you've added the symbols for control characters
15:34:49 <b_jonas> oren_: how many characters total do you have now?
15:37:59 <oren_> I'm tenth on the site now, but if I want to get in the top 5, I'll hvae to basicllay double that
15:39:25 <b_jonas> oren_: um, it doesn't look like you're in the top ten from http://fontstruct.com/gallery?order=by-glyph-count
15:39:41 <oren_> that only includes edtor's picks
15:40:55 <oren_> 'http://fontstruct.com/gallery?filters=all&order=by-glyph-count
15:41:27 <int-e> oerjan: Do I remember correctly that you did prove TC-ness of brainfuck with a tape containing 3 unbounded cells? (My own attempt would implement a variant of FRACTRAN, but I have not verified all details). I also have considered the case of 4 cells, of which the outer cells are unbounded while the two middle cells always stay at zero (they are never modified); that allows a direct...
15:41:33 <int-e> ...implementation of a two-counter machine (with while, and if-zero-then-else). I'm currently pondering the case of two unbounded cells with a bounded cell in the middle (which usually, but not always, zero). (with the center cell always at zero, one gets a two-counter machine with while and if-not-zero-then (no else)... this doesn't seem to be sufficient to me)
15:42:48 <oerjan> and it started as a variant of fractran, then ended up as a _different_ conway invention
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15:43:44 <oerjan> ^wiki Collatz function
15:43:44 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz function
15:44:51 <myname> i am pretty sure this link is broken
15:44:55 <int-e> oerjan: oh damn. could we name that "Generalized Collatz function..."
15:45:22 <int-e> then I would've followed the link when I saw it on the brainfuck page two days ago :P
15:45:51 <oren_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz%20function
15:46:00 <int-e> (somehow, "collatz function", to me, is the 3n+1 / n/2 thing)
15:46:00 <oerjan> int-e: it wasn't my name
15:46:09 <oerjan> yeah it's a little awkward
15:46:13 <oren_> you lack percent-encoding
15:46:33 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz+function
15:46:34 <oerjan> oren_: sorry, it works when i paste it into the address bar
15:46:58 <int-e> (which doesn't work... but should ;))
15:47:43 <oren_> screw it, to up my char count, I'll just do bengali gurmukhi and whatever
15:47:55 <oerjan> basically with Fractran i had trouble testing fractions in sequence and also getting it to halt in the end; to solve this i merged the fraction moduli and this turned out to be this collatz function thing
15:48:01 <b_jonas> oren_: is upping the character count so important?
15:48:10 <b_jonas> oren_: add armenian and georgian?
15:48:58 <oren_> I added armenian already yeah
15:49:33 <Taneb> b_jonas, here is what my friend did: http://hastebin.com/kepizajuza.cpp
15:49:42 <oren_> b_jonas: well i suppose since I like to be number 1 at things
15:49:56 <b_jonas> oren_: if you want lots of characters easily, then try the greek script characters with accents
15:50:18 <b_jonas> they're somewhat easy because you already have the base characters, though you may have to squeeze them to get the accent to fit
15:50:30 <int-e> oerjan: ok, I envisioned changing the fractan program n_i/m_i to p/1 ; n_i/(p m_i) for some fresh prime p, and to add some cleanup rules so I can use reaching 1 as stop condition.
15:51:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44165&oldid=44122 * Oerjan * (+28) /* Computational class */ Clarify
15:51:34 <b_jonas> oren_: or would all ten thousand Korean syllables fit this small character cell? if so, create them programmatically.
15:52:47 <int-e> (the stopping at 1 bit is mainly me being lazy; it should be possible to take p=2 (shuffling the other primes) and stop when an even number is left in the end)
15:54:54 <oerjan> int-e: i think that even check is just about what i _failed_ at
16:00:57 <oerjan> i think because i couldn't see any way to check a cell for evenness without destroying data
16:02:10 <oerjan> i still have an esthetic gap in my construction: i have no way to convert a number from p^n to n format at the end (the other way is easy)
16:02:40 <int-e> you may be right about the evenness test
16:03:25 <oerjan> which means this cannot be turned into an i/o pipe as a whole
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16:05:28 <int-e> hmm, if there's only one p, then *p^n 0 0 after -[+>>+<<[p->+<]>[-<+>]<-] becomes *0 0 n
16:05:57 <oerjan> i may have misremembered
16:06:20 <oerjan> maybe it's splitting _that_ into characters that's impossible
16:07:08 <int-e> that's quite possible, at least I see quite a few difficulties...
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16:09:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
16:14:19 <b_jonas> oren_: wait, you haven't done the halfwidth hangul letters (not full syllables) yet!
16:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44166&oldid=44161 * Scoppini * (+11)
16:30:50 <fizzie> Plot of the day: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/
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16:34:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44167&oldid=44165 * Rdebath * (+51) /* Computational class */ Make the clarification a direct link.
16:38:27 <Elite-1> what a cool diagram. respect.
16:48:06 <Jafet> Oh, the summaries are just ~200 kB.
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16:53:48 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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16:54:22 <oren_> bonus: ♔♕♖♗♘♙☢☣✥✦✧✨❓❔❕❖❗❛❜❝❞❟❠❢❣❤❥❶❷❸❹❺❻❼❽❾❿
16:55:42 <b_jonas> oren_: demo is up but the font isn't
16:56:05 <oren_> try refresing a few time
16:56:36 <b_jonas> great, accented greek is up
16:56:46 <oren_> browser and isp caches are annoyng
16:56:58 <b_jonas> oren_: you can set them with directives and stuff
16:57:25 <b_jonas> oren_: anyway, what's next? halfwidth separate Korean letters, Georgian?
16:58:11 <b_jonas> oren_: or Hebrew with vowel points and fullwidth Korean syllables?
16:58:49 <oren_> hebrew voels points are already in, but
16:59:05 <oren_> I can't figure out how to demo them
17:00:05 <oren_> I have a program that does the tables :
17:00:08 <oren_> u8tbl 0x1f00 0x1f6f
17:00:47 <oren_> maybe an idea ould be to place a character beteen each one?
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17:02:19 <b_jonas> oren_: I mean the pre-composed characters
17:02:23 <b_jonas> or are those not in unicode/
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17:04:57 <oren_> hmm maybe I should just do many of the alphabetic presentation forms block
17:04:58 <Elite-1> what is it you are doing? is it possible to create characters by drawing more of them into "one cell"?
17:05:30 <b_jonas> oren_: do georgian. it's not easy, but it's at least plausible to use in a monospaced font.
17:06:00 <oren_> that does look plausible
17:06:09 <b_jonas> I still like this font because you did a great work on the latin letters though
17:06:55 <Elite-1> so.. you are designing fonts? :)
17:07:48 <b_jonas> Elite-1: what? who? I'd never do such a thing. that's for trained professionals. :-)
17:08:14 <Elite-1> lol. just would like to understand what is the actual challange.. a keyword or sth
17:08:56 <b_jonas> Elite-1: no, I was just doing crazy stuff like proofreading a font oren makes, at midnight when I should really have gone to bed instead, and finding several mistakes.
17:09:30 <Elite-1> uhum. that's so nice of yours.
17:09:54 <b_jonas> But that was back when it was easy, with mostly common characters. Now, when it's all big, I can no longer do that.
17:10:08 <b_jonas> I don't even know how most of these crazy characters are supposed to work.
17:10:45 <oren_> I'm basically just looking up the unicode consortium's pdfs and working off those
17:11:12 <b_jonas> I mean, who'd put futhark runes in a monospaced font? Runes that are generally written with a ton of ligatures in most words, that is.
17:11:15 <coppro> poll: should I try evil-mode or neovim first?
17:11:26 <Elite-1> well. the meaning of life is to give life a meaning.
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17:13:01 <izabera> did anyone try acme or sam?
17:15:34 <b_jonas> oren_: incidentally, do your line growing characters cover all of the two Commodore 64 character sets?
17:15:38 <oren_> green highlights the new characters
17:17:41 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII
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17:18:45 <oren_> that's interesting with the lines that re shifted up down left and right
17:19:00 <b_jonas> note that it's tricky, because it uses inverted characters to increase the count, so it doesn't have the graphical characters that are inverses of the others in the set
17:19:05 <oren_> and the circles similarly.. I don'y have those
17:19:11 <b_jonas> eg. has a bottom half block, but not a top half
17:19:23 <b_jonas> because the video card can easily invert it
17:19:35 <b_jonas> the video chip or something
17:20:21 <oren_> I have most of them but not the shifted circles
17:21:22 <oren_> no wait I have those
17:22:08 <oren_> diagonal half block, I dunno if there is one in unidoce
17:22:35 <b_jonas> oren_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII#Codepage_layout
17:22:49 <b_jonas> there is, though that table might not help you find the inverses
17:23:24 <oren_> thats a triangle though ◤
17:23:50 <b_jonas> oren_: I was wondering because you have had the rounded corner line drawing characters for a while
17:23:57 <oren_> in the commodore it goes to the upper and lower edges
17:24:25 <oren_> looks like I have almost everything
17:27:55 <b_jonas> oren_: do yuo have the left and right diagonally striped blocks?
17:29:13 <b_jonas> oren_: hmm, apparently the C64 used a different (but related) character set for storing characters, and for displaying them in the video memory
17:29:23 <b_jonas> (just like modern linux systems on the vga console)
17:29:32 <b_jonas> and they actually have the letters in different positions
17:29:36 <b_jonas> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Character_set
17:30:11 <b_jonas> the normal character set contains control characters for all keystrokes,
17:30:28 <b_jonas> the video memory character set is the one that has the inverted characters
17:34:40 <tswett> Bill. Sorcery. 2B. As an additional cost to play Bill, obtain permission to play Bill from target player. You do not have to show Bill to that player before obtaining permission. You control that player during that player's next turn.
17:35:51 <tswett> Certainly a gray-border.
17:36:03 <oren_> "can I play the bill?" "uh, sure, thanks". "ok" *places card* "wha?"
17:36:47 <b_jonas> do you mean "silver-bordered"? silver is shinier than gray so we call it that
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17:38:26 <tswett> https://twitter.com/RoboRosewater/status/642771114020745217 - so this is impossible to play, right?
17:40:03 <olsner> could both players play it at the same time?
17:41:25 <tswett> I'm reasonably sure the Magic rules never ask two players to make a decision simultaneously.
17:42:00 <b_jonas> tswett: yes. but MaRo doesn't care about templating, so that might not be what he wanted.
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17:48:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zodiac Working Group]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44168&oldid=44075 * Hppavilion1 * (+113) Created Page
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17:52:56 <oren_> that's weird. a newly created page doesn;t normally have a oldid
17:54:18 <FireFly> It's probably just an edit message?
17:55:29 <oren_> the next version of my font will contain a demonstration of my utterly inability to draw a pentagon
17:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> oren_: FireFly: I forgot that I hadn't just created the page
17:56:21 <FireFly> Now I'm tempted to work on my fixed-width fonts again
17:56:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: what fixed width fonts do you have?
17:57:05 <FireFly> I don't remember where I put them, but I've linked to them in here before
17:57:23 <b_jonas> I should work on a demo page showing my terminal font with various example texts and showing all characters
17:57:53 <b_jonas> or at least all non-control characters, because the control characters can be hard to access
17:57:57 <FireFly> There's always UTF-8-demo.txt
17:58:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: I know it's easy, yes
17:59:16 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/pixfont/index.html there's this thing
17:59:29 <b_jonas> I know what I can use as example text in natural language (it's obvious: the three poems of which I have a copy on my homepage), but I also need some sort of sample of a programming language that shows off ascii punctuation somehow
17:59:46 <FireFly> The other various fonts cover too little to be of any use, I think
17:59:48 <b_jonas> can you recommend some example that shows off _all_ ascii punctuation nicely in some realistic way?
18:00:23 <FireFly> You could cover a lot with carefully selected C, I guess
18:00:30 <b_jonas> oh, and I need a lorem ipsum of course
18:01:38 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, I wanted to check something
18:04:14 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm <- is this a good example?
18:05:14 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm or this one
18:06:48 <oren_> ideally a sample would be short but contain things like += and *= to demonstrste the alignment of characters
18:06:52 <b_jonas> I was hoping for somethign short, but it's probably impossible to get something that's both short and natural and shows off all characters
18:07:48 <b_jonas> hmm… http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/Incunabulum would be too evil, and doesn't contain a ^
18:08:11 <b_jonas> heck, it doesn't even contain a /
18:10:54 <zzo38> You can have a C code without a slash if you do not have any comments, divisions, and subdirectories
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18:12:09 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/Cdemo.htm
18:15:47 <oren_> hmm did I miss anything?
18:16:24 <b_jonas> oren_: you can put those in strings
18:16:38 <fizzie> And GCC has an extension allowing $ in identifiers.
18:16:44 <oren_> right but you can but any bytes in a string
18:16:45 <b_jonas> oren_: you need a backslash though
18:17:29 <fizzie> You do need a question mark for trigraphs, that's true.
18:17:43 <fizzie> <% and %> work for curly braces, though.
18:18:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, not in a font that I want to use in a sane way, no
18:18:42 <oren_> those align nicely in my font
18:19:07 <oren_> the < is centred vertically behind the %
18:21:03 <pikhq> Digraphs are a lot nicer than trigraphs.
18:21:25 <FireFly> oren_: you're missing an end tag for the <pre> in the generated files
18:21:28 <zzo38> The <% and %> looks like nicely in the font I am using
18:22:23 <oren_> FireFly: allowed by html standard
18:24:21 <oren_> %:include "stdio.h"
18:26:54 <oren_> if(a<:i:>==3)<%printf("%d\n",??-a??(i??))??>
18:27:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44169&oldid=44164 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
18:27:16 <pikhq> oren_: You missed a golden opportunity for ??/
18:27:40 <b_jonas> oren_: add in some pascal code where [ ] { } have digraphs (. .) (* *) iirc
18:27:43 <oren_> pikhq: wiat they wrok inside srting!???
18:28:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44170&oldid=43375 * SuperJedi224 * (+35) /* Example programs */
18:28:04 <b_jonas> oren_: yes, that's the whole point of trigraphs
18:28:06 <pikhq> oren_: Yes, trigraphs happen *before tokenizing*.
18:28:19 <pikhq> Trigraphs are basically implemented via a quick sed before all processing happens.
18:28:34 <pikhq> Digraphs, on the other hand, or just alternate names for tokens.
18:29:06 <oren_> but, but, if you're on a system where { doesn't exist, then what happens if you print "??<"?
18:29:37 <pikhq> Then you're violating spec: { is part of the required character set. :)
18:30:28 <b_jonas> oren_: you probably get an ä or á
18:30:41 <pikhq> Yeaaah, trigraphs are Really Really Dumb.
18:30:43 <b_jonas> which is actually the same as {
18:30:56 <pikhq> They are literally required to exist as part of the runtime character set.
18:31:25 <b_jonas> I don't know my iso-646, sorry
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18:49:54 <FreeFull> Combine trigraphs with the ternary if
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18:54:25 <fizzie> Well, the logical or that the standard uses as example for trigraphs -- ??!??! -- is already p. silly.
18:56:16 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's easier to deal with: %:include <iso646.h> and then just use or
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19:04:37 <oren_> there should be a header that enables code to be written in 6-bit codes
19:04:40 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:07:08 <oren_> wait you'd need something to replace character case
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19:28:21 <b_jonas> oren_: go the whole way and make it 5-bit telegraph codes with shift
19:28:49 <b_jonas> I mean 5-bit telegraph codes with two planes and lock shifts
19:32:32 <pikhq> It's frankly kinda silly the spec permits not-ASCII...
19:33:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: actually there's a proposal that would require C++ compilers to have a mode where they accept utf-8 source files, even if the default mode uses other crazy character sets
19:33:27 <b_jonas> pikhq: but you can't require ASCII because C is used on EBCDIC machines actually
19:33:37 <b_jonas> requiring ASCII would be unreasonable
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19:45:01 <int-e> where is boily been anyway?
19:51:56 <zzo38> I think boily is live at Canada and I also live at Canada
19:52:34 <int-e> it wasn't really meant as a geography question.
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20:00:41 <b_jonas> what... you're in Canada? I didn't know
20:01:02 <b_jonas> Isn't most of this channel in Finland anwyay?
20:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> I /don't/ think Finland is part of the UK, b_jonas
20:01:45 <pikhq> b_jonas: I'm aware, and have had the misfortune of using said machines.
20:02:37 <pikhq> I'm of the opinion that such machines have done more monetary damage than IBM has profited from them.
20:02:39 <hppavilion[1]> "In theory, yes" is the first message I sent when I hold ^
20:02:40 <b_jonas> pikhq: oh dear. when? for banking?
20:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Does anyone have any ideas for slightly esoteric ISAs?"
20:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> "Something about the same level of esotericness as my variable-length instruction VM"
20:04:33 <pikhq> b_jonas: But yeah. EBCDIC is a crime against humanity and not only should it be scoured from the planet, it should be scoured from the timeline.
20:04:33 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: but it uses fixed length instructions
20:04:37 <zzo38> As bad as it is, it isn't quite *that* bad.
20:04:47 <int-e> oh yes, IBM's encryption standard.
20:05:05 <zzo38> I don't like EBCDIC either, it is pretty badly designed. ASCII is better
20:05:07 <b_jonas> pikhq: but then you'd need much more complicated hardware in the punch card readers, woudln't you?
20:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Of couse it does. Therer are fucking /machine codes/ that don't use fixed length inscructions
20:05:42 <pikhq> On the bright side, if I felt like it I could go brute force login all Internet-exposed mainframes and trash them.
20:06:05 <pikhq> b_jonas: Amusingly, no, the *software* being buggy is what prevented them from shipping with ASCII.
20:06:50 <zzo38> Hollerith works for punch cards though, you do not need EBCDIC
20:07:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: how would that help?
20:07:57 <pikhq> (I'd be unhappy but begrudgingly accept a world in which IBM was merely forced to adopt UTF-EBCDIC.)
20:09:14 <int-e> I'll grudgingly admit that EBCDIC made some sense with punched cards. Oh and at the time where engineers still were thinking about decimal based computing.
20:09:22 <zzo38> I don't like UTF-EBCDIC either, that is just as terrible as real EBCDIC and perhaps more so, but at least it allows you to convert ASCII stuff that isn't in EBCDIC into EBCDIC.
20:10:26 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, although for punch cards I would just use Hollerith anyways (for purely numeric data you could use Postnet instead)
20:10:30 <int-e> (Have the decimal IEEE 754 formats ever been implemented in hardware? If so, is any of that hardware still in use today?)
20:10:36 <pikhq> int-e: The irony is, EBCDIC *was not intended to ship*.
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20:10:59 <pikhq> int-e: EBCDIC was a hack extension of the then-legacy BCD junk.
20:11:07 <pikhq> Those machines *were intended to ship as ASCII*.
20:11:34 <pikhq> They shipped with EBCDIC because the software wasn't ported yet, and they never went back and fixed it.
20:11:49 <pikhq> IBM literally externalized the cost of their tech debt on everyone else.
20:12:29 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, it's not great but it's better than not even representing common characters.
20:12:30 <b_jonas> pikhq: exactly, ebcdic is the way it is because it's easy to read from punch cards. the low four bits are usually read from the lower nine rows of the card, and three bits above are read from the top three rows of the card. and storing letters on the punch cards is a hack when they originally stored numbers only.
20:13:11 <int-e> decimal numbers. of course.
20:13:34 <int-e> (What else?! I wasn't born with 16 fingers!)
20:14:16 <b_jonas> int-e: sure. decimal is enough for sorting census data with card sorting machines. surely the workers can't be expected to convert numbers from decimal to octal and back in their head when computers barely existed.
20:14:22 <Elite-1> 12 fingers for homo sapiens sapiens sapiens
20:15:27 <zzo38> I have once invented the "FORMCARD" specification, a protocol and file format for transfering form data. Although the protocol uses only ASCII (it is not specific to any transport mechanism, you can use RS-232, telephones, TCP/IP, stored in a file, QR codes, etc), the types of fields are "H" (which stands for "Hollerith"), "P" ("Postnet"), "A" ("Automatic"), and "M" ("Manual"). There is no EBCDIC.
20:15:47 <Elite-1> i say, let's go for it. let's breed mutatant kids to become autistic computing machines. we need this when the machine will turn against us.
20:16:05 <zzo38> Whether or not any characters which are not in Hollerith can be entered into a "H" type field is implementation-dependent.
20:16:37 <Elite-1> microfilm, punch cards, mutant kids and john connor
20:17:30 <Elite-1> (and maybe a poster of kylie minoque to give life a meaning)
20:18:35 <zzo38> I remembered I had stuff also for calculations, expandable fields, formatting (for printout or HTML or whatever), barcodes, namespace URIs, and some others
20:18:43 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of idea?
20:21:40 <zzo38> You can avoid having to make up a separate form for computer and for filling on paper
20:22:30 <b_jonas> can't you use html to represent forms?
20:26:02 <zzo38> HTML is only if you are doing it on computer in web browser with internet; mine is more general-purpose, also has some more sophisticated features but can be easier to parse than HTML
20:26:18 <b_jonas> um no… html can be printed too
20:26:35 <b_jonas> HTML+CSS is designed in a way that it can describe printed documents
20:27:11 <zzo38> Yes it can, but HTML forms aren't so good for printout (you could use CSS too, but that still requires you to format it yourself)
20:27:30 <zzo38> Nor does it allow forms like Scantron forms to be used, or punch cards
20:27:43 <zzo38> And it still requires a web browser.
20:28:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: so you want one of those forms with little rectangles reserved for each handwritten character, which the tax bureau uses?
20:28:17 <b_jonas> and it requires a web browser for whoever designs the forms and prints them,
20:28:27 <b_jonas> not for the people who get the printed form and fill it with handwriting
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20:29:08 <zzo38> Yes, one box per character is also a way to format them, but the formatting should be independent
20:29:58 <zzo38> FORMCARD is design a common protocol instead; you can have them convert to HTML or DVI or whatever, and even if you want, to convert the HTTP post data back into FORMCARD data on the back end, although these are only some possibilities, not all.
20:31:23 <zzo38> FORMCARD supports formatting hints, but rather the hint specifies stuff like "important" or "required" or "office use only" or which fields should be grouped together in rows/columns, not such things as how exactly it looks like or the font size or color or anything like that.
20:37:07 <zzo38> Another possible form layout you might use is if you have the boxes to write each character and underneath also the circles you can fill in and the computer will scan it; you could use Hollerith or Postnet for filling in such things, is one way
20:38:09 <b_jonas> I'm… not sure the tax bureau would like if I used Hollerith to fill my tax forms. And how'd I even type the "á" in the name or address?
20:39:23 <int-e> clearly you first have to apply for an ascii name.
20:39:56 <zzo38> I did not say the tax bureau (or anyone else) has to use it
20:40:15 <b_jonas> int-e: there might be a boostrapping problem there, I might need to write my old name to apply for a new one.
20:40:29 <zzo38> Just like, they don't have to use HTML, they don't have to use FORMCARD either.
20:40:53 * int-e still has trouble distinguishing between zzo38 discussing established standards and zzo38 discussing his own pet projects.
20:41:14 <int-e> b_jonas: you don't say
20:41:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure. they use that crazy java-based form filling program instead, and then refuse to help people when the program has a bug and doesn't allow entering their valid data.
20:44:55 <b_jonas> But at least you can extract the html version of the guide from the java program (just unzip it), whereas otherwise it's available only as a pdf.
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20:45:25 <zzo38> You don't have to use Java either, clearly
20:45:36 <b_jonas> I should do that automatically for all their forms and put the htmls up on the web so that people or web crawlers can access the html versions.
20:45:42 <b_jonas> I checked, their license allows it.
20:45:58 <b_jonas> It says I can redistribute their guides in unmodified form.
20:46:10 <oren_> I once thought it was a good idea to have an online voting sytem for elections. then I realized if we did that, the top candidates would be harry dick, bob loblaws, and hitler didnothingwrong
20:46:58 <oren_> therefore, I want to keep the election system paper-based
20:47:13 <Elite-1> much better. just use one of the hundreds of .MD -> HTML serving engines/templates
20:47:32 <oren_> markdown is total and complete shit that's why
20:47:56 <int-e> . o O ( you're in a maze of twisty markdown processors, all different )
20:47:58 <zzo38> Markdown doesn't seem so good for forms anyways
20:48:43 <int-e> no cookie, thought bubble
20:48:46 <Elite-1> you can even create tables wth | pipes
20:52:30 <zzo38> I agree to keep the election system paper-based
20:55:38 <b_jonas> I don't care either way, because once I achieve world domination, any remaining elections won't influence anything anyway.
20:58:07 <Elite-1> you need the elections just to make the people elect, silly.
20:59:00 <Elite-1> that's part of a good world domination plan
21:01:01 <Elite-1> world domination may be overrated anyway
21:03:05 -!- Patashu has joined.
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21:11:01 <b_jonas> Elite-1: sure, they're elect a parliment that doesn't have any power.
21:11:07 <b_jonas> But I don't really care how they do that.
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21:53:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> It's not confusion, it's knowing that I have ADHD and will likely start more than 12 projects xD
21:53:44 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I still don't understand coroutines
21:53:54 <oerjan> coroutines are the ADHD of programming hth
21:54:20 <oerjan> you're doing one routine, and then *poof* you're doing another instead
21:55:49 <oerjan> also y'all talk to much
21:58:42 <fizzie> But it's been entirely silent for, like, an hour.
22:01:35 <Taneb> Another channel is wondering if the reason I am like I am is because my eyebrows, despite their volume, can't express anger
22:05:08 <oerjan> try applying war paint hth
22:07:11 <Taneb> (the way I am includes rarely expressing anger)
22:09:24 <ashl> and also includes voluminous but calm eyebrows?
22:09:36 <shachaf> Taneb: have you played factorio twh
22:09:56 <ashl> that should probably go in wisdom.pdf
22:09:58 <Taneb> shachaf: I have not, what is factorio
22:10:16 <shachaf> a game where you build and automate things
22:13:31 -!- variable has joined.
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22:17:37 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:21:23 <shachaf> We have a multiplayer game going.
22:24:26 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
22:25:42 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/and //;s/genders./genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows./' wisdom/taneb
22:25:50 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
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22:56:11 <zzo38> Is there program to send DVI to fax?
23:13:12 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> where is boily been anyway? <-- i think he went to singapore or something like that? it's in the logs somewhere.
23:15:29 * oerjan is starting to get the hang of closing duplicate SO questions
23:19:17 -!- ayylmao has changed nick to kline.
23:19:59 <Elite-1> there are fax services, though most of them cost money. in fact analogue fax services drop off a lot. folks tend to give a fax more credibility like for authenticity of documents.
23:19:59 <tswett> In retrospect, "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down" is sort of a hilarious error message.
23:20:41 <pikhq> Elite-1: Which is pretty goofy.
23:20:43 <zzo38> DVI is device indepentent format for printing documents
23:20:58 <tswett> How many users of Windows 95 do you think knew what "performed an illegal operation" meant?
23:21:05 <pikhq> I mean, it's not even as though common fax is analog.
23:21:40 <pikhq> It's digital sent through a modem. :)
23:21:57 <zzo38> In case you are at a hotel and you do not have a printer then you could try to send it to the hotel's fax machine. I have even seen a hotel room that has a fax line on the wall.
23:22:34 <Elite-1> it's more like a copy. you get this receipt. and, like a timestamp for the transaction.
23:23:23 <oerjan> Elite-1: there's actually a user with nick laura, she might get a bit confused
23:23:40 <shachaf> Elite-1: Please on't abuse lambdabot.
23:23:52 <Elite-1> @tell laura hi..sorry. i was just testing sth
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23:24:51 * lambdabot hits lambdabot with an assortment of kitchen utensils
23:24:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you were saying?
23:25:39 <shachaf> oerjan: lambdabot is excluded from the lambdabot abuse rule
23:25:49 <tswett> `le/rn sth/"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
23:25:49 <shachaf> oerjan: If I catch *you* doing anything, though...
23:26:04 <Elite-1> i do not want to abuse people. but i alwys do that with robots.
23:26:26 <oerjan> and thus we doom humanity
23:26:44 <pikhq> *grumble* I need to upgrade my OpenWRT router again.
23:26:54 <Elite-1> but this time it's goin to be a ball
23:27:18 <oerjan> Elite-1: what kind of ball? neutronium?
23:27:19 <pikhq> OpenWRT is a Linux distro that runs on consumer routers.
23:27:35 <pikhq> The only unfortunate thing about it is, upgrading it is not super nice.
23:27:58 <Elite-1> well.. that's further out than i stand now.. so..erm. probably not.
23:28:00 <pikhq> (courtesy of being a "flash the firmware" type of deal rather than "run apt-get update" deal)
23:28:06 <Elite-1> thanks for playing anyway.
23:28:23 <oerjan> shachaf: also i've already constructed unsafeCoerce in lambdabot several times, you know
23:29:06 <pikhq> It's otherwise quite nice though.
23:29:16 <pikhq> It's perhaps the least sucky consumer router I've dealt with yet.
23:30:46 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you ever *actually* do it in lambdabot?
23:33:53 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i got to the > uc 'a' --> 97 stage
23:34:15 <oerjan> that's sort of my standard test case now
23:34:36 <shachaf> Ah, right, I was thinking of running IO.
23:34:53 <shachaf> Which I never did because I didn't want to crash it, among other reasons.
23:35:18 <shachaf> Anyway they were all variations of #10000, right?
23:35:31 <oerjan> nah as a mathematician i refer that to the "it's obviously possible" case, then go back to bed with the fire burning
23:36:14 <oerjan> i don't think lambdabot supports the ghci type family thing i found later
23:36:42 <oerjan> being as L.hs is an actual file and not a real GHCi prompt
23:37:26 <oerjan> i suspect IO is insufficient to crash it nowadays.
23:37:46 <shachaf> Oh, the type family thing was different, yes.
23:38:01 <shachaf> But that only works in ghci, with multiple lines in the same session.
23:38:29 <oerjan> it's slightly more flexible without Safe mode
23:38:43 <oerjan> then you can put some of the stuff in modules, and just load two conflicting ones
23:39:21 <oerjan> (but they must be loaded from GHCi, otherwise the overlap check triggers)
23:39:59 <oerjan> i don't think that bug has been fixed yet, i don't recall any patch on the trac
23:41:46 <shachaf> oerjan: as a mathematician can you find an md5 collision to violate safehaskell with twh
23:42:19 <oerjan> are TypeRep fingerprints using that?
23:43:30 <oerjan> hm so md5 is reasonably unsafe
23:43:49 <oerjan> but engineering a collision by composing types still seems quite a bit of work
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23:49:51 <shachaf> oerjan: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7634
23:50:25 <shachaf> (Note that the description there is probably no longer accurate with the new TypeRep changes.)
23:50:36 <shachaf> (Well, maybe it still is.)
23:52:08 <shachaf> The constraints are pretty strict.
23:52:15 <shachaf> A lot of bits are forced to be 0.
23:59:07 <oerjan> my intuition would imply that a large number of fixed bits would _increase_ the chance of collision, by making the space smaller overall?
23:59:59 <shachaf> A lot of bits of the input, I mean. Or maybe I don't follow?