00:00:29 <shachaf> If even finding a collision with two arbitrary inputs is hard, surely finding a collision with two inputs with a bunch of constraints is harder.
00:00:40 <oerjan> i haven't found the code that actually constructs the fingerprint for a TypeRep ...
00:03:28 <shachaf> Unless you mean the MD5 code, which is in GHC.Fingerprint.
00:04:30 <shachaf> Unless you mean the code inside the compiler, which is different but does the same thing.
00:05:10 <oerjan> ok it's mkPolyTyConApp, looks like it takes a list of the fingerprints for TyCon, kinds and type arguments and passes to fingerprintFingerprints
00:06:11 <shachaf> There used to be a bug with associativity so now they use a list instead.
00:06:12 <oerjan> i'm particularly interested in those, since they can be built arbitrarily complex
00:06:40 <oerjan> while a TyCon is sort of limited in information content
00:15:23 <tswett> I'm about to attempt something that sounds pretty difficult.
00:15:33 <tswett> Namely, proving that the infinite cyclic group has at least two elements.
00:16:13 <tswett> I dunno, I think that's a little too advanced for where I am right now. Instead, I'll try to prove that the infinite cyclic group is not the trivial group.
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00:26:21 <Jafet> Sounds promising. Now most people, see, they would just blindly start with the singleton group.
00:28:57 <HackEgo> [U+22C4 DIAMOND OPERATOR] [U+2337 APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL SQUISH QUAD]
00:31:05 <tswett> All right, I successfully managed to prove a different theorem.
00:31:13 <tswett> Namely: the cyclic group of order 2 has at least two elements.
00:32:17 <fizzie> Did you use the diamond operator and the APL functional symbol squish quad to denote those two elements?
00:48:28 <myname> factorio looks like a nice little df like
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00:49:27 <izabera> the goal is literally to make it boring
00:49:52 <izabera> i guess i don't really get that kind of game
00:50:20 <myname> if the game is good, it cannot get boring
00:51:08 <tswett> I really like Factorio.
00:51:25 <tswett> The idea of the game is that you design stuff and build it.
00:51:46 <myname> izabera: have you ever played df?
00:52:30 <tswett> That's pretty much, like, what I do.
00:53:42 <izabera> sure why not, it's almost 3am and i just had my 5th coffee
00:53:52 <tswett> I take tools and figure out how to use them to achieve goals.
00:54:12 <myname> it is one of the deepest games out there. sadly it is also one of the most complex ones
00:54:38 <Jafet> You'd think Mine Tycoon would be a boring game, but it's actually about excavation.
00:55:32 <tswett> By the way, I'm pretty sure that in tennis, scores of 30–30 and 40–40 are functionally equivalent.
00:55:48 <tswett> In either case, the condition for winning is gaining a two-point lead.
00:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> Can someone look over Stare and give me suggestions? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stare
01:01:29 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I like it. Consider eliminating unnecessary instructions.
01:01:32 <Elite-1> hypnotic dendro-erotic suggestions in order toenslave body and mind
01:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I don't want to make it a Turing Tarpit (or Push-Down Automaton Tarpit), I want to make it a useable, but strange, language
01:03:08 <Elite-1> consider eliminating relevant instructions then
01:03:28 <tswett> In that case, you're missing the bitwise logic operators.
01:04:24 <tswett> All you really need is either bitwise "and" or bitwise "or"; bitwise "not" is the same as subtracting from -1. Well... that's if you're using two's complement representation.
01:05:39 <tswett> And then you can use de Morgan's laws to get the other one.
01:05:47 <tswett> But you may want to just go ahead and include all three.
01:06:37 <tswett> Are numbers allowed to be arbitrarily large, or is there a limit to them?
01:07:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44171&oldid=44132 * Hppavilion1 * (+304) added a push instruction, fixed up the interpreter description.
01:08:09 <tswett> `unidecode ⰀⰁⰂⰃⰄⰅⰆⰇⰈⰉⰊⰋⰌⰍⰎⰏ
01:08:10 <HackEgo> [U+2C00 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER AZU] [U+2C01 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER BUKY] [U+2C02 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER VEDE] [U+2C03 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER GLAGOLI] [U+2C04 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DOBRO] [U+2C05 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER YESTU] [U+2C06 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER ZHIVETE] [U+2C07 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DZELO] [U+2C08 GLAGOLITIC
01:08:44 <HackEgo> [U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET]
01:08:49 <oren_> Ⰴ = GLAGOLITIC ERECT PENIS
01:08:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The numbers are equivalent to "long"s on the machine on which it was compiled. Or in the case of my implementation, 64-bit integers because I'm using python
01:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Actually, I think I'll make the numbers double-precision floating points
01:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Or in the Python implementation, whatever you call a variable's type in python (as that's how python works))
01:16:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Wait, but what if you call PRINT on a noninteger floating point thing?
01:17:30 <HackEgo> [U+2C04 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DOBRO]
01:17:58 <tswett> I wouldn't have been completely surprised if it had been GLAGOLITIC ERECT PENIS. Or, I guess, GLAGOLITIC SYMBOL FOR ERECT PENIS.
01:18:05 <tswett> The latter would be more likely.
01:19:04 <oren_> someone should add Ⰲ and Ⰴ to myndzi
01:19:57 <oerjan> myndzi: can you add Ⰲ and Ⰴ twh
01:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44172&oldid=44171 * Hppavilion1 * (+1693) Clarified the syntax, added text commands and some new command(s).
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01:28:25 <oerjan> took me too long to be sure this time...
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01:30:14 <oerjan> a troll who has been banned here for years
01:30:18 <tswett> Everyone, I have a useful video.
01:30:19 <tswett> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqEzI9rPvP4
01:31:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44173&oldid=44172 * Hppavilion1 * (+559) Always-executed line type, Hello World.
01:32:14 <izabera> what's an efficient way to find the longest substring that appears more than once in a string?
01:32:48 <oerjan> tswett: nice top comment
01:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> 3) Find if it's been answered. If not, ask it. Proceed to step 4. If not, continue normally
01:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> 5) Profit (from the royalties from the application you just made)
01:34:42 <izabera> i was expecting a ??? step
01:38:01 <oerjan> izabera: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11853668/how-do-i-find-the-largest-sequence-in-a-string-that-is-repeated-at-least-once fwiw
01:38:49 * oerjan did steps 1 and 2 in google instead
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01:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44174 * Hppavilion1 * (+5133) Moved contents of Stare here
01:42:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44175&oldid=44173 * Hppavilion1 * (-4846) Changed page to a "list" of dialects
01:43:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44176&oldid=44175 * Hppavilion1 * (+21) Fixed opening text to reflect the page rearrangement
01:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> The page may change in the future to clarify the design, but no new features will be added to that page's specification
01:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> Stare 2.0 will have support for Functions, libraries, etc.
01:52:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44177&oldid=44174 * Hppavilion1 * (+23) Fixed some inconsistencies
01:52:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44178&oldid=44177 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Linked to the ZWG
01:53:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw we do have a "Move" button in the wiki menu
01:53:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44179&oldid=44178 * Hppavilion1 * (-6)
01:53:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I know, but I didn't move the entire page, just most of it
01:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44180&oldid=44179 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Grammar
01:57:30 <HackEgo> cat: bin\?: No such file or directory
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02:00:50 <oerjan> sic transit gloria mundi
02:07:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44181&oldid=44176 * Hppavilion1 * (+258) Dialect summary
02:07:58 <tswett> "Thus goes the glory of the world." No, that can't be the right translation.
02:08:49 <tswett> Huh, apparently that is, in fact, the right translation.
02:08:57 <tswett> Except "passes" for "goes" would be better.
02:11:06 -!- heddwch has changed nick to shikh.
02:13:24 <fizzie> "Diseases are transmitted through Gloria's mouth."
02:14:04 -!- shikh has changed nick to heddwch.
02:14:49 <fizzie> Also: ars longa, vita brevis: "our long white beards".
02:15:16 <fizzie> I think I learned both from something that was in Finnish.
02:15:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44182&oldid=44181 * Hppavilion1 * (+881) Rearranged article to list upcoming dialects (by type system)
02:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm planning for a total of 4 differenent Stare dialects, two statically typed and two dynamic
02:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44183&oldid=8347 * 108.45.95.33 * (+181) Added info about first implementation
02:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44184&oldid=44183 * 108.45.95.33 * (-22)
02:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44185&oldid=44184 * 108.45.95.33 * (-6) /* Implementation */
02:20:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44186&oldid=44182 * Hppavilion1 * (+559) Basic Idea
02:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> Is Haskell's If/Then/Else defined in haskell or is it primative?
02:24:04 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu98k5vVP-Y
02:24:20 <tswett> My best guess at a Latin translation for "our long white beards" would be, oh... "nostrae barbae blancae largae".
02:24:25 <tswett> When in doubt, append -ae to everything.
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02:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> Because I can see then and else just being an identity function and if being a function that accepts three arguments and returns the second if the first is true, else the third
02:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> Making if/then/else a massive lie that is really just there for ease of reading
02:25:41 * hppavilion[1] is now shipping Perlskell because he is very strange
02:26:10 <zzo38> Well, let's see what it is then
02:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> in agda if then else is just a single function because you can have arbitrary fixity for your functions
02:26:55 <tswett> Well, the syntax is "if x then y else z"; if it were as you said, the syntax would have to be "if x (then y) (else z)".
02:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> It's like haskell, but with perl's demonic type system
02:28:06 <oren_> perlskell: "He was a washed up has-been who was big in the 90's. She was a bookish mathematics professor. Can love bloom? Watch wednesday night at 9!"
02:28:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it's much easier to just have then and else be sole inhabitants of the types Then and Else and then have if discard its 2nd and 4th arguments
02:28:47 <oren_> obviously Haskell is female
02:29:18 <tswett> They're both nonbinary.
02:29:21 <oren_> anything ending in elle is female. it's like, arule
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02:29:45 <fizzie> I thought there was a tradition of having if' x y z = if x then y else z.
02:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> I remember from when I was learning haskell that else is actually a variable defined to "True" in the standard library!
02:29:49 <tswett> Arule, the plural of the Italian word "arula".
02:29:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that was "otherwise".
02:30:32 <tswett> GT translates "our long white beards" as "longis albis cresceret barba eorum", which I'm sure is wrong.
02:30:43 <oren_> and obviously, perl is a washed up has-been who was big in the 90's
02:30:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
02:30:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
02:31:00 <fizzie> Possibly the if' thing isn't all that widespread.
02:31:07 <lambdabot> arr@(Array l u _) ! i = unsafeAt arr (index (l,u) i)
02:31:11 <fizzie> I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, though.
02:31:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
02:31:28 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
02:31:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic?
02:31:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
02:32:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
02:32:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
02:32:13 <tswett> I did in fact get one thing right in my translation attempt. The Latin word for "beards" is "barbae".
02:32:24 <lambdabot> arr@(Array l u _) ! i = unsafeAt arr (index (l,u) i)
02:33:04 <zzo38> I don't know of any Peano Axioms for exponentiation?
02:33:30 <tswett> There aren't very many Peano axioms, and exponentiation isn't one of them.
02:34:06 <tswett> I'm creating a computer language, vaguely like Haskell, in which you can define mathematical stuff.
02:34:16 <hppavilion[1]> What is the definition of x**y for natural numbers? You are given only the operation S(x) which returns x+1
02:34:31 <tswett> Well, define multiplication first.
02:34:58 <tswett> Then x**S(y) is x*(x**y) and x**0 is 1.
02:35:13 <tswett> My language kind of has a definition of the natural numbers.
02:35:38 <tswett> Actually, no, now it *does* have a definition of the natural numbers.
02:35:57 <zzo38> Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" discusses a programming language "BlooP" and "FlooP", with conditions as well as comparing numbers and addition and multiplication, counted loops, and a few others.
02:36:11 <pikhq> x+S(y) is S(x)+y and x+0 is x. HTH
02:36:30 <tswett> Here's the definition of the natural numbers in my language.
02:36:31 <zzo38> I have found that you don't need conditions, comparison, addition, or multiplication, and can define all of them in terms of the successor operation and counted loops.
02:36:36 <zzo38> So yes clearly it is possible to do
02:36:51 <tswett> variety NatNumAlgebra { sort Nat; zero : Nat; succ : Nat -> Nat; }; presentation NatNum : NatNumAlgebra { };
02:37:24 <zzo38> tswett: Ah, OK. I can see its working I think
02:37:44 <tswett> First, you define the concept of a "natural number algebra".
02:37:47 <zzo38> (Although I don't know what "presentation" does, as the example given is blank)
02:38:03 <tswett> A natural number algebra essentially consists of a set, an element of the set, and a function on the set.
02:38:04 <zzo38> (But in this case it looks like OK if blank)
02:38:47 <zzo38> I can see all of that, yes, it is already clearly enough
02:39:39 <zzo38> Do you have other examples (including some with "presentation" with some stuff inside { } block)?
02:39:42 <tswett> Then you define the natural numbers as being the free natural number algebra generated by no generators.
02:39:57 <tswett> Yeah, sure. Have... the Klein four-group.
02:40:26 <tswett> variety Group { algebra : Monoid; inv : Elem -> Elem; forall x : Elem, mult x (inv x) = ident; forall x : Elem, mult (inv x) x = ident; };
02:41:20 <tswett> presentation KleinFourGroup : Group { a : Elem; b : Elem; mult a a = ident; mult b b = ident; mult a b = mult b a }
02:41:49 <zzo38> Ah, OK now I can see how that works
02:42:39 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see Peano's Axioms extended to defined for all real- or better, all complex- numbers
02:43:02 <coppro> tswett: does the KleinFourGroup sing love songs?
02:43:20 <tswett> coppro: I haven't worked out the language sufficiently far that it can determine that.
02:43:29 <tswett> I guess the path of love is never smooth.
02:44:57 <oerjan> @pl \x y z -> if x then y else z
02:45:27 <oerjan> it's used there because otherwise @pl wouldn't have anything to return
02:45:49 <tswett> @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
02:45:52 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
02:46:16 <tswett> @pl \y -> (\x -> y (x x)) (\x -> y (x x))
02:46:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: haskell's if x then y then z is officially syntactic sugar for case x of { True -> y; False -> z }
02:46:58 <tswett> Too bad I can't get the type of that expression.
02:47:03 <tswett> @type ap (. join id) (. join id)
02:47:04 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 ~ a0 -> b
02:47:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> b) -> (a0 -> b) -> b
02:47:05 <lambdabot> Actual type: ((a0 -> b) -> b) -> (a0 -> b) -> b
02:47:12 <oerjan> case is the most primitive pattern matching construct in the report
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02:48:13 <tswett> Now, there's a funny thing about varieties and presentations.
02:48:29 <tswett> Theoretically, presentations are redundant. You could just move all of the things from the presentation into the variety.
02:48:41 <tswett> And then use the empty presentation to get the thing you wanted.
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02:50:31 <coppro> did you go to NYC two weeks early?
02:50:39 <boily> no, I was in Singapore :D
02:50:46 <lambdabot> coppro said 14d 16h 50m 3s ago: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/mj-reference-wip.pdf
02:51:12 <tswett> But presentations are restricted: you can only define nullary operators (that is, constants), not other operators; and identities can't use universal quantification.
02:51:36 <tswett> I guess ultimately, a presentation is a specific type of way of extending a variety to get another variety.
02:51:38 <coppro> boily: actually that one's sort of out of date
02:51:53 <coppro> I decided scribus sucked so I've redone the top half in inkscape. Haven't done the table yet though
02:52:20 <boily> "*munch*", says I with a Double Big Mac in my mouth.
02:52:50 <coppro> boily: what was in Signapore, besides boily?
02:52:56 <tswett> Now, it's kind of interesting what a finitely presented natural number algebra turns out to be.
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02:53:34 <tswett> Namely: it's a state machine, where there's a defined initial state, and some states have defined successor states.
02:53:49 <tswett> If a state doesn't have a defined successor state, it just automatically gets an anonymous successor state.
02:54:00 <tswett> It's possible for two different states to have the same successor state.
02:54:17 <tswett> There's no input; the initial state completely determines the sequence of states the machine goes through.
02:54:54 <boily> coppro: yup. two weeks over there under the sun, with a weekend spent in Malaysia.
02:54:58 <tswett> Of course, you're only allowed to define the successor states for finitely many states; otherwise it wouldn't be finitely presented.
02:57:19 <boily> I'll upload pictures some time this week.
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03:10:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44187&oldid=44186 * Hppavilion1 * (+170) Stare 1.1
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03:14:54 <zzo38> Is "Hellu" anything like "Hello"?
03:15:58 <boily> it's a good enough appruximation.
03:27:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.1]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44188 * Hppavilion1 * (+946) Created update log.
03:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44189 * Hppavilion1 * (+534) Created Page (WIP)
03:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm creating updates more as a symbolic thing than a practical thing xD
03:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> Honestly, the updates are so that the base isn't too featureful xD
03:33:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44190&oldid=44187 * Hppavilion1 * (+298) Stare 1.2
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03:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> So... I've already planned out a programming language and 2 updates to it, along with some farther-in-the-future updates for later
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03:50:22 <zzo38> You say "so that the base isn't too featureful"; are these extensions, or what is it?
04:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Stare 1.0 is the original language, Stare 1.x languages are upgrades of the language, Stare x.0 is an in-house derivative, and Stare x.y is an upgrade of that in-house derivative
04:24:45 <oren_> აბგდევზთიკლმნოპჟრსტუფქღყშჩცძწჭხჯჰჱჲჳჴჵჶჷჸჹჺ
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04:55:20 <zzo38> What kind of game?
04:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> I just want someone to do it and then to get the memory of having done it xD
04:55:43 <zzo38> I don't know much about Prolog programming.
04:57:10 <zzo38> Try to see what you can make with QUACKVM, or a higher level programming language compiler to target it. I would be interested to see what anyone else can do with it.
05:01:18 <MDude> I don't see a apge for QUACKVM
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05:02:40 <zzo38> There is no page in esolang wiki or anywhere else, only a .zip archive containing documentation and C codes and some example programs
05:05:14 <zzo38> (There is a Minesweeper game, Robot find kitten game, a start of a Panel de pon puzzle mode game, a Munching squares demo, and a few other small examples.)
05:05:46 <zzo38> I just used the assembly language, although you might prefer other kind of programming languages
05:09:55 <zzo38> No I do not use GitHub, I just have the plain files
05:10:57 <zzo38> It is easier and simpler to work with and do not require web browser or a git client or anything else like that, you can just download the file.
05:12:02 <zzo38> To run a program you run it specifying the ROM filename on the "quackvm" commandline, optionally followed by a disk filename. The provided implementation might not work except in xterm. To assemble, put filename on commandline of "quackasm"; output goes to stdout and must be redirected to write to the ROM file. (You can also append banks by appending to the file.)
05:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd get more exposure if you were to put it on GH. You could, of course, share it on GitHub AND have it on your website
05:12:59 <zzo38> Yes, GCC will do, it is what I used.
05:13:20 <zzo38> Or just run them with bash, they should compile if you do that
05:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, I'm a windows user for the moment xD
05:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> So A) I can't use bash and B) I don't have termios.h
05:14:26 <zzo38> Then you probably cannot compile quackvm.c at all; you could try to write your own implementation though.
05:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> I've been meaning to dual-boot with a linux distribution
05:15:33 <zzo38> I don't expect that implementation to work on Windows. However, you can look at the codes and the documentation and use that to make up your own implementation for Windows.
05:16:16 <zzo38> The assembler shouldn't need termios
05:17:03 <zzo38> The VM implementation uses it to set noncanonical mode
05:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a python programmer. Not much C experience. What's noncanonical code?
05:17:58 <zzo38> Noncanonical mode for terminals means that input is done by characters rather than by lines.
05:18:27 <zzo38> To use the assembler in Windows, you probably need to add something into the program to make stdout into binary mode (and I will accept patches for it)
05:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> While I'm at it, I might as well send you the .exes to pack with it if you wnat
05:19:15 <zzo38> However the .rom files are the output of the .asm files so you don't need to assemble them if you want to use only the existing programs without changing it
05:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> Let me check the python code I copied earlier for /my/ vm
05:21:35 <zzo38> If you want, you can try to make an implementation of QUACKVM for Windows. As long as it is open-source I will agree to either include the files or to make a file that lists the links to the Windows versions as well as any other implementations and related stuff
05:22:08 <zzo38> Make sure you have the latest quackvm.zip the earlier ones had a few mistakes!
05:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should just use python if I'm going to make an implementation
05:22:47 <zzo38> You can use Python if you want to, that's OK
05:23:16 <hppavilion[1]> I assume files are flat binaries because you didn't have any suggestions for me xD
05:23:59 <zzo38> Note that some features are optional to implement.
05:24:23 <Patashu> Hi all, is it ok to ask an assembly related question here, or is there a more appropriate channel?
05:24:44 <Patashu> (asking on behalf of a friend who's stuck on a programming assignment. I would know how to solve it if it's not assembly)
05:24:48 <zzo38> Patashu: I don't know; ask anyways in case anyone knows, but if there are others you can try that too
05:25:03 <zzo38> The URL is the same as the previous versions; it is: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip
05:25:59 <Patashu> so what the program needs to do is read and validate numbers from the user. from the second number onwards, it also needs to compare the new and last number and print which one was higher.
05:26:18 <Patashu> so say you put in 1, then 2, it compares 2 to 1 and 2 is greater, then you put in 30, it compares 30 to 2 and 30 is greater, etc
05:26:26 <zzo38> Patashu: But you should nevertheless mention (whether you ask here or elsewhere), assembly language for what computer?
05:26:41 <Patashu> http://pastie.org/private/kztje7hm3tuvpdlhauv7ba#27 I think it's called nasm, e.g. this is documentation for it http://www.tortall.net/projects/yasm/manual/html/nasm-effaddr.html
05:26:53 <Patashu> so the specific problem we're having is, we want to swap the pointers to our two input buffers after reading each number in
05:27:14 <Patashu> so we're always, for example, inputting the newest number into input1, then comparing input1 to input2, then swapping what was in input1 to input2 and reading into input1 again
05:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a bit clueless. What exactly does "the predicate succeeding" do in your VM?
05:27:51 <Patashu> but the problem we're having is that lea input2, dx ; and mov input2, dx ; are both compiler errors.
05:28:14 <Patashu> and we know that it will work if you surround input2 in brackets, like this: [input2] but that does something different - it uses the value input2 is pointing to, not the 'pointer' of input2 itself, and we want to swap the two pointers specifically
05:28:44 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It matters if the instruction has the predicate bit set; then a cell follows which tells it where to go if the predicate succeeds/fails (depending on the sign bit)
05:29:05 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I believe the newest documentation documents that? If it isn't clear, you can tell me and I can try to fix it.
05:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still uploading the newest docs to Drive so I can read them
05:29:43 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It is a plain text file, not a MS Office document
05:30:31 <zzo38> Yes, but it is still a plain text file. The .doc extension is used for both (although using it for plain text is a bit old), although Wordpad should be able to open it anyways hopefully?
05:30:38 <zzo38> Patashu: I don't know much of nasm syntax or x86 instruction set, nor do I know what other channel to try
05:30:51 <Patashu> zzo38: NP, thanks for hearing me out
05:31:09 <zzo38> Patashu: But if someone else happens to be on and who knows the answer, they will answer you too
05:32:18 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: So you can read it with Wordpad. (Notepad will not work because Notepad requires CRLF line endings)
05:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> Doesn't matter though, I uploaded it to Google Drive and had Google Docs convert it to a Google Docs document
05:33:17 <zzo38> You can do that if you want, that is fine, the document is public domain anyways
05:34:49 <zzo38> All other files there are also public domain.
05:35:54 <zzo38> Sorry, if I am being unclear in the documentation, then I hope to fix it. You could try to understand by the C codes too if you want to, even if you cannot understand C codes very well, it might be better than reading only one file
05:36:20 <hppavilion[1]> I think I just don't understand low-level processing enough xD
05:37:06 <zzo38> That might be it. It can be a good idea to learn, not only for this but for dealing with other stuff too
05:37:38 -!- shachaf has set topic: English spelling reforms | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
05:38:42 <oren_> all characters of my font (so far) in unicode ordering: http://www.orenwatson.be/fontcharlist.htm
05:40:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, you've documented the instruction format and encoding of that interpreter?
05:40:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I have done it now (I don't know if it is clearly enough)
05:41:29 <zzo38> oren_: That looks like good so far
05:45:05 <hppavilion[1]> I need a way to convert a string of bits to a floating point
05:46:25 <zzo38> There are no floating-point instructions
05:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> I mean instructions that operatate on registers containing double-precision floating point numbers
05:47:32 <zzo38> Ah, well, I do not know Python, nor have I seen such instruction in your documentation? Maybe it was a bit old one!
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05:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> I was thinking about a SETF instruction, but I don't need that
05:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> But I must've added those instructions after I talked to you
05:49:48 <zzo38> What did you expect to need them for?
05:51:45 <zzo38> Yes, if you intend to use with programs that require floating-point. Many programs don't and use fixed-point. But, look in Python documentation maybe you can find it
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06:47:16 <HackEgo> danddreclist 67: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:47:25 <zzo38> I will add the character sheets a bit later
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13:35:39 <ais523> hmm, spambot says ATM MASTER CARD, and although it's almost certainly a typo for MasterCard, there's somehow a very different connotation
13:38:17 <fizzie> Did you get to see Sunday's plot-of-the-day? http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/
13:38:18 <bender> ATM INTERCALDIATE CARD
13:39:15 <ais523> oh wow, margins is going to be hilarious again isn't it?
13:39:44 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I can't see the top few lines at the same time as the graph at the bottom
13:41:24 <ais523> fizzie: suggested improvement to that: in the graph at the bottom, show which program won
13:41:39 <ais523> correlation between win rate and cycle length is interesting to know
13:44:32 <fizzie> Mm. I could use three different colors for the bar (with a legend on the right side), although currently there's always at least one zero-height bar, so I'd have to pad them a bit.
13:44:39 <ais523> !bfjoust test ,[.,]!Hello, world!
13:44:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_test: 6.1
13:45:06 <b_jonas> THE PLATINUM YENDORIAN MASTER CARD
13:45:18 <b_jonas> and THE MASTER CARD OF THIEVERY
13:46:13 <b_jonas> btw, my latest adventures in Windows land:
13:46:40 <b_jonas> network share with two directories, named "a" and "A", in the same directory. Explorer lists "A" no matter which one I'm trying to view.
13:50:03 <zemhill> ais523.test: points -32.10, score 3.26, rank 47/47
13:52:08 <fizzie> The plots still won't auto-update, sadly.
13:54:11 <myname> a brainfuck programming game
13:55:30 <ais523> fizzie: your website is missing a link to the repository of programs
13:55:33 <ais523> (I'm currently updating the wiki page)
13:55:38 <ais523> (and noticed it isn't listed anywhere)
13:56:25 <ais523> seems to be http://zem.fi/bfjoust/hill.git/
13:56:51 <b_jonas> izabera: look on esolangs.org, there's an entry
13:57:07 <b_jonas> it's a strange game ais523 is good at
13:57:15 <ais523> I'm editing the page right now
13:57:19 <ais523> so the bot should post a link to it soon
13:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44191&oldid=40553 * Ais523 * (-246) update information about the hills; fix capitalization of "brainfuck"
13:58:18 <izabera> b_jonas: reading about it now
13:58:35 <ais523> Gregor: your certificate for https://codu.org is expired
14:01:54 <ais523> b_jonas: one of the things I love about BF Joust is that unlike almost all competitive games, you can play it against yourself
14:02:18 <ais523> because there's no hidden information involved, you can see all the programs you're competing against and analyze how they work, but that doesn't necessarily help in beating them
14:03:06 <b_jonas> ais523: sure. competitive rubik cube solving is like that too.
14:03:29 <b_jonas> ais523: there's hidden information, but only in the sense that the tape length and polarity are hidden from the bfjoust code.
14:03:50 <ais523> b_jonas: rubiks cube solving is competitive only in the sense that you can compare two solution events to see which one had the shorter time
14:03:57 <ais523> there's no interaction between the different players
14:04:12 <ais523> BF Joust has plenty of interaction, but the twist is you have to write down your strategy in all possible situations in advance
14:04:12 <b_jonas> only metagame interaction.
14:05:38 <b_jonas> so then it's like... ICFP contest 2004 about the ants?
14:05:56 <b_jonas> that's a two-player game where you have to write down the strategy in advance
14:06:20 <b_jonas> people played it for a while after the contest, though I think they have mostly stopped now.
14:06:38 <ais523> yes, I think that's a good comparison
14:07:16 <b_jonas> it also uses a somewhat simple programming language, one that doesn't have a large memory or registers.
14:07:51 <b_jonas> a large general purpose random access memory that is.
14:10:17 <b_jonas> in windows, what's the proper combination of backslashes and/or slashes in a pathname like \\?\UNC\\\HOSTNAME\sharename\ ?
14:11:47 <ais523> and my searches are failing because duckduckgo doesn't recognise \\?\ as a search term
14:11:55 * ais523 tries putting quotes around it
14:12:04 <ais523> oh, now it does recognise it, but can't find any results anyway
14:14:22 <b_jonas> apparently it needs a single backslash between UNC and the server name
14:15:29 <ais523> do I even want to know what you're doing?
14:16:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I mentioned above:
14:17:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I was sure I had the hill repository link somewhere, but turns out I didn't. The program names in the score table link to the gitweb view, which I think used to have the URL, but it seems to have gotten lost.
14:17:31 <b_jonas> "btw, my latest adventures in Windows land: network share with two directories, named "a" and "A", in the same directory. Explorer lists "A" no matter which one I'm trying to view."
14:18:12 <ais523> I thought it might be connected to that
14:18:31 <b_jonas> I want to try to list both directories out of curiosity
14:19:04 <b_jonas> I don't think this will help, because it's still case insensitive normally
14:21:10 <b_jonas> it's non-deterministic too
14:21:16 <b_jonas> apparently it's locally cached for a while
14:21:25 <b_jonas> so whcihever dir I try to access first, I'm stuck at it
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14:22:43 <Jafet> Interestingly, bfjoust resembles not a tilt (lance charge) but a traditional joust (with multiple rounds and fighting styles)
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14:36:49 <fizzie> Jafet: Is the latter composed of multiple instances of the former?
14:38:32 <fizzie> (I've been wondering about the word to use for a single "instance" (particular pair of programs, tape length and polarity). The article sometimes calls it a "match", but it's not even consistent.
14:39:31 <ais523> fizzie: "round" seems to make sense
14:39:39 <ais523> btw, if you're talking about the wiki article
14:39:43 <fizzie> In "-- tournaments generally run 42 matches between the two warriors -- A program is scored based on the number of configurations in which it won, minus the number of configurations in which it lost; thus +42 is a perfect score for an individual match --" the first half implies there are 42 matches, but the second half implies "an individual match" is all 42.
14:39:52 <ais523> you can make it consistent and then people will start using your terminology
14:40:08 <ais523> that's how the whole "sieve" and "kettle" thing started
14:40:21 <ais523> (this also implies that the word you choose is likely to catch on even if it makes no sense)
14:40:56 <fizzie> I don't remember my wiki password, and my password manager is inaccessible. :)
14:41:20 <fizzie> The article uses the word "round" for one of what I've been calling cycle, too.
14:41:32 <fizzie> I think I just read that too fast.
14:41:41 <fizzie> "In each round of a match, both warriors simultaneously execute one of the above instructions at each time step (or 'cycle')."
14:42:00 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind it being "match" for the full set of 42, and "round" for one configuration.
14:42:29 <fizzie> My protobuf messages call the former a single "joust".
14:44:01 <ais523> I think "cycle" is standard by now
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14:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44192&oldid=44191 * 74.125.57.54 * (-7) /* Matches */ (Hopefully) consistify terminology.
14:47:39 <fizzie> Usernames are for chumps anyway.
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14:52:59 <Gregor> ais523: I know, but I've been having issues with StartSSL @_@
14:53:15 <ais523> Gregor: fair enough, just making sure you were aware
14:53:40 <ais523> the whole certs and expiry thing is basically a blatant cashgrab as it is
14:53:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44193&oldid=44192 * 74.125.57.54 * (+109) /* Competitive hills */ Tweak zem.fi hill replacement strategy description.
14:54:14 <fizzie> My StartSSL cert for zem.fi is expiring on October 7 this year.
14:54:15 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I guess my programming mind saw the two as equivalent
14:55:06 <fizzie> I was hoping letsencrypt would've been launched (as scheduled) so I wouldn't have to keep dealing with StartSSL.
14:56:59 <fizzie> I think they've only moved the announced dates back once.
14:57:08 <fizzie> (Before that, they just didn't have launch dates.)
14:59:22 <fizzie> Arguably, my replacement strategy is "less sane" (in that you can replace a better program by a worse one), but that's what I ended up when implementing it.
15:02:04 <ais523> fizzie: it's equivalent over time, the only difference is the instant at which you take the snapshot
15:02:23 <ais523> because it affects the scores of the incoming program
15:04:03 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK]
15:06:05 <tswett> Maybe I should use that as my regular question mark; what do you guys think;
15:08:18 <Jafet> Why not use U+200B
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15:12:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: how about "game" for a particular pair of programs on a length and polarity, and "match" for the set of all games between two programs on each length and polarity?
15:13:56 <b_jonas> or maybe the first one could be a "run"
15:15:02 <fizzie> There was one instance of calling it a "run", but I just went with a "round".
15:16:46 <b_jonas> and then you need words for the set with two programs on a given polarity but varying length, and the set with two programs with a given length but varying polarity. :-)
15:17:59 <fizzie> I think I'll call one a "slice", and the other a "sluice".
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15:26:58 <b_jonas> sluice? is that a real word?
15:30:16 <lambdabot> *** "sluice" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
15:30:20 <lambdabot> n 1: conduit that carries a rapid flow of water controlled by a
15:30:22 <lambdabot> sluicegate [syn: {sluice}, {sluiceway}, {penstock}]
15:30:26 <lambdabot> v 1: pour as if from a sluice; "An aggressive tide sluiced
15:30:50 <fizzie> As far as making sense goes, it's in the sieve/kettle ballpark.
15:31:28 <fizzie> 2. (1) sluice, flush -- (irrigate with water from a sluice; "sluice the earth")
15:31:38 <fizzie> "sluice the earth" sounds like something a supervillain would say.
15:33:15 <b_jonas> oh, a *conduit*. well, that explains everything: http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1013.html
15:33:37 <ais523> I was aware of the word "sluice", but I wouldn't necessarily expect a non-native speaker to know it
15:33:39 <ais523> it's a pretty obscure word
15:34:43 <ais523> "slice" is much better-known
15:34:45 * APic no native English-Speaker, and did not know that Word
15:34:58 <ais523> (although a sluice-gate could probably be used for slicing, especially if you sharpened the bottom of it)
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15:37:06 <b_jonas> ok, so sluice. that means we have conduits in bfjoust.
15:38:15 <ais523> huh, "penstock" is a synonym for "sluice"?
15:39:15 <b_jonas> well, in some of their meanings
15:40:00 <b_jonas> great build system set up here, I think I only have to edit the description file in like six places to add a new set of source files.
15:43:29 <b_jonas> http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1013.html has some great technobabble. Heisenfram, Hyperfluid, Intermix, Phlebotinum, and Wavelet conduits.
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15:52:07 <fizzie> ais523: I probably know of 'sluice' because of encountering references to sluice gates in somewhere or another.
15:52:26 <ais523> sluices and sluicegates go together, really
15:52:26 <fizzie> I think a game, perhaps.
15:52:40 <ais523> you need a sluice gate in order to be a sluice
15:52:46 <ais523> but a sluice gate doesn't have a whole lot of useful applications
15:52:49 <ais523> gating sluices is the main one
15:52:50 <fizzie> http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Garamsythe_Waterway "The Sluice Gate Key can be obtained from Sorbet after completion of the White Mousse Hunt."
15:53:03 <ais523> fizzie: huh, I didn't expect an FFXII reference
15:53:08 <fizzie> It's possible I knew of sluices beforehand, but I've at least obtained the Sluice Gate Key.
15:53:25 <oerjan> today i did something i'd never thought plausible: i voted in a norwegian church election.
15:54:34 <ais523> oerjan: did you care about who won?
15:54:47 <ais523> I voted in the UK local police commisioner elections a while ago
15:54:59 <ais523> which had one of the lowest turnouts ever
15:55:08 <ais523> mostly as a negative vote to make sure that particular candidates didn't win
15:55:20 <b_jonas> local police commisioner elections? I haven't heared of such a thing.
15:55:36 <b_jonas> and sure, negative vote is perfectly normal, it happens on bigger elections too.
15:55:40 <oerjan> it was for a good cause. it so happens that this year the main issue in the election has been whether the church should perform gay marriages...
15:56:04 <b_jonas> when all the candidates seem bad, some of them can still be worse, and then it's worth to vote for another, even if you're not sure who's the best candidate.
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15:56:25 <fizzie> ais523: What all do you elect here? I think I'm eligible to vote on some local things now.
15:56:27 <oerjan> (also, the church election is colocated with the municipality elections, so it was a simple thing to vote in both)
15:56:48 <ais523> fizzie: there are two main groups of elections (which sometimes fall on the same day, which makes counting easier)
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15:57:17 <ais523> one is a general election; that used to happen approximately every five years (I think a new law means that it happens /exactly/ every five years because governments were scheduling them tactically)
15:57:38 <ais523> in a general election, every position for a member of parliament is voted on
15:58:14 <ais523> each person gets to vote for one member of parliament "slot" depending on where they live (the slots are called "constituencies" and have names like Birmingham Edgbaston)
15:58:53 <ais523> it's plurality voting, and the members of parliament then can plurality vote on laws
15:59:26 <ais523> the prime minister is loosely defined as "anyone who can plausibly claim to be prime minister, and not have over 50% of the MPs oppose that claim"
15:59:38 <ais523> the other main election is a local election; that affects the makeup of the local council
15:59:52 <fizzie> Apparently the general one requires citizenship.
15:59:56 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. can that mean there's two opposing prime ministers?
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16:00:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think there's a countably infinite number of prime ministers.
16:00:44 <ais523> that works much the same way as a general election, except a) the slots are more specific (and called "wards", not "constituencies"), and b) there are three candidates elected per ward (although in some elections, you vote for all three, some you vote for only one)
16:01:03 <ais523> fizzie: oh, the prime minister also has to be an MP
16:01:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, there can't be much more than that, unless they're overlapping a lot
16:01:28 <ais523> b_jonas: it could sort-of happen; however, the Queen has the final say as to who the Prime Minister is (although if she gets it wrong, she'll instantly be overriden by 50% of the MPs)
16:01:55 <ais523> it's generally considered that it would be very embarassing for the Queen to nominate someone Prime Minister and immediately get them voted out
16:01:58 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, that means it's effectively the same system as in Hungary, but defined backwards
16:02:22 <oerjan> ais523: wait, does that mean britain will no longer have freely scheduled dissolution of parliament?
16:02:27 <ais523> so she normally delays the official announcement until it's clear that one party can control a confidence vote
16:02:40 <ais523> oerjan: I believe so; there's some provision for emergencies, which may or may not be badly defined
16:03:07 <ais523> fizzie: and as for what "councillors" elected in a local election do, they get to control the budget for the local area and vote on how it's used
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16:03:19 <b_jonas> here, the President of the Republic proposes a prime minister to make a government, but then the majority of the parliment has to vote _for_ him before he can become a prime minister, so the President generally proposes the one person who would get the votes in first place,
16:03:26 <ais523> in my case, the council in question is Birmingham City Council, who control the budget for all the day-to-day running of Birmingham
16:03:26 <oerjan> norway has had a fixed schedule basically always, and some have argued that we _should_ introduce dissolution
16:03:36 <ais523> things like funding the police, repairing streetlights, garbage collection
16:03:39 <b_jonas> and for that he may have to wait before parliment parties make an agreement, if no party is in majority after the elections.
16:04:23 <ais523> the council itself is funded by two sources: a) money from the national tax budget (allocated by parliament); b) council tax, which is charged against houses (more expensive the more impressive the house) and has to be paid by their owners
16:04:57 <b_jonas> ais523: all of that sounds normal, it's just the part where you said "local police commisioner" that sounds strange
16:05:02 <ais523> so a council election is really about how you want the council to prioritize their budget
16:05:10 <ais523> b_jonas: most people think it shouldn't have been an elected position in the first place
16:05:41 <ais523> we've only had one election for that
16:05:41 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, only those two? local councils can't have tax on industry?
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16:06:19 <ais523> b_jonas: local councils can't impose their own taxes (other than council tax), although they can certainly try to claim a bigger share of the national taxes on whatever basis they feel like
16:06:37 <ais523> oh, btw, all this applies to England specifically; the situations in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are more complicated and I don't know all the details
16:10:25 <ais523> (and no idea about the smaller islands; Anglesey almost certainly counts as part of Wales, and the Hebrides and the like as part of Scotland, but what about the Isle of Man, or Wight, or the Channel Islands, or the Falklands?)
16:10:53 <b_jonas> yes, those all have crazy special rules
16:10:59 <b_jonas> about everything in general
16:11:41 <ais523> the UK being centered around an archipelago (which isn't all part of the UK, nor is all of the UK there) makes geographical terminology pretty awkward sometimes
16:12:00 <ais523> even the name of the archipelago itself is apparently very contentious on Wikipedia
16:12:13 <ais523> "British Isles" is the most common, but some Irish people feel that that's discriminatory
16:12:50 -!- ais523 has quit.
16:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (that kind of irish person is mostly out to make a point, though)
16:13:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> (that kind of irish person is mostly out to make a point, though)
16:13:32 <ais523> now I'm wondering if "Great Britain" (the name of the largest island in the archipelago) is contentious too
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16:23:48 <b_jonas> ais523: it's possible that different names are better for different purposes.
16:25:31 <b_jonas> Like, a politician has to use one name in his speech to avoid some people feeling insulted; but you have to use another name when addressing a postal mail so that it gets there more reliably.
16:25:52 <b_jonas> There's some crazy naming issues, like that about Macedonia or Taiwan.
16:26:27 <b_jonas> Or Serbia, which had to stop calling itself Yugoslavia after a while.
16:27:03 -!- Vorpal has joined.
16:27:54 <shachaf> `culprits useless_file.txt
16:28:58 <oerjan> "after a while"? did they keep doing it after montenegro left?
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16:32:19 <S1> Has someone here ever made something in BANCStar?
16:32:34 <ais523> b_jonas: weren't you a BANCStar "expert"?
16:32:39 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:32:49 <oerjan> hm not even that long, they changed in 2003
16:32:50 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, maybe I've confused you with someone else then
16:32:50 <b_jonas> I was just interested and read some of the disassembler code
16:32:54 <ais523> bearing in mind that this is all relative
16:33:01 <ais523> knowing anything at all about BANCStar probably makes you an expert
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16:33:08 <S1> then even I am an expert
16:34:37 <S1> Just wondered if someone made something reasonable that could have been shown. But now I realize I would not want to read it anyway
16:35:54 -!- S1 has left.
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16:36:07 <S1> ais523: Why did you welcome me?
16:36:20 <oerjan> isn't there no surviving implementation of BANCStar?
16:37:16 <oerjan> secretly, he did it so as not to risk any `relcomes
16:37:30 <HackEgo> ?: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:38:01 <ais523> I have colours turned off in my client :-P
16:38:24 <shachaf> i,i `mkx rmelcome//rm bin/relcome
16:38:34 <S1> colours are not a valid topic for any irc
16:38:51 <oerjan> Vorpal: where have you been?
16:39:10 <oerjan> i guess it's vacation season
16:39:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, well I moved out from my parents, and like the week before that the HDD of the RPi that runs the znc bouncer died, and I didn't have time to deal with that until now
16:39:53 <Vorpal> So that is why I have not been on IRC
16:40:13 <Vorpal> Fucking HDDs, I want some durable storage. Install and forget
16:40:18 <b_jonas> look at me, I'm the BANG-Star EGG-Spurt
16:41:10 <oerjan> btw i turned on +n yesterday, hagb4rd was around and made brief use of it.
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16:41:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: no implementations. the buy who brought us the bangstar samples and disassemblers said he has an old floppy with the implementation that he may be able to read somehow, then he disappeared completely. so be careful.
16:42:19 <S1> "We are sure there is nothing fishy about this"
16:42:52 <b_jonas> but if you're not a trained professional BANG-Star EGG-Spurt, then don't try it at home anywya.
16:43:18 <S1> Also it's BANCStar, not BANGStar
16:44:47 <zzo38> I figured out some things of BANCStar too; see the talk page
16:44:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: you seam to be speaking vaguely pornographic, are you sure you're not hagb4rd
16:46:04 <S1> he did it twive
16:48:28 <oerjan> one, two, twee, twour, twive times!
16:48:58 <Vorpal> ais523, how are you btw?
16:49:10 <S1> twive is even more than twice
16:49:24 <fizzie> Vorp'hello. I don't even remember how long you've been gone.
16:49:33 <fizzie> Can't have been that long, seeing as I still haven't graduated.
16:49:49 <ais523> Vorpal: temporarily inconvenienced, with no real long-term problems right now
16:49:53 <oerjan> are you graduating gradually
16:50:04 <ais523> I'm spending most of my time at work, because my house is being re-plumbed
16:50:09 <ais523> and is currently almost a building site
16:50:25 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
16:50:33 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
16:50:35 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's required to be somewhat discrete by the rules.
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17:05:40 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: temporarily inconvenienced, with no real long-term problems right now <-- well my toe hurts and the doctors don't know what it is so far...
17:05:47 <Vorpal> But that is not related to not being here
17:09:53 <b_jonas> ok, apparently I'm an expert because I created the esowiki webpage for BANCStar.
17:12:01 <oerjan> i think zzo38 is also a bit of an expert, istr he did some investigations
17:12:36 <zzo38> Although neither of us are really an expert as far as I know.
17:12:45 <b_jonas> yep. and GreyKnight did more investigations.
17:13:50 <zzo38> Some things I have come to conclusion differently than other people have done
17:14:25 <ais523> oh, hmm, we are missing someting
17:14:28 <HackEgo> Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:14:45 <S1> I see the habit now, ais523
17:15:21 <ais523> Vorpal hasn't been here for ages, we need to make him welcome ;-)
17:15:47 <S1> I never said it's a bad habit, anyway
17:16:46 <HackEgo> Vårpal: Wälcome to the intärnatiånal hub får äsåteric programming language däsign and deplåyment! Får måre infårmation, check out our wiki: <http://äsålangs.org/>. (For the åther kind åf äsåterica, try #esåtäric ån ÄFnet år DALnät.)
17:17:42 <S1> this is æwesøme
17:18:21 <ais523> b_jonas: not fair, you added another stupid welcome variant since last time I deleted a bunch of them?
17:20:38 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a generic Swedifier
17:20:48 <b_jonas> `` echo 'hello, world' | en2sv
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17:23:15 <HackEgo> Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
17:27:25 <zzo38> I have almost as many footnotes as sessions, but only approx. half as many chapters as sessions
17:30:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv
17:30:18 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }
17:31:06 <Vorpal> b_jonas, what is that?
17:31:18 <Vorpal> just adding random dots?
17:31:38 <Vorpal> We should add a proper Swedish and Norwegian welcome message, don't you agree oerjan ?
17:32:05 <zzo38> If you know how to write in Swedish and Norwegian then you can try to do such thing
17:32:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, well I do know Swedish and oerjan knows Norwegian obviously
17:32:32 <b_jonas> Vorpal: spells stuff in Swedish. Swedish randomly spells "e" as either "e" or "ä", and similarly randomly spells "o" as either "o" or "å". It should also do other changes, but those would be more complicated to implement.
17:32:43 <oerjan> are you sure there wasn't one already?
17:33:17 <Vorpal> Let me do the proper translation to Swedish
17:33:19 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
17:33:37 <tswett> I'll try, and undoubtedly fail extremely badly, to translate the welcome message into Latin.
17:34:10 <zzo38> Why is the speecher on my computer so bad????? It is making all of the wrong noise!!!!
17:34:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: elcomeway: not found
17:34:34 <quintopia> zzo38: you seem very upset about this
17:35:06 <zzo38> It still works though despite that
17:35:07 <Vorpal> Välkommen till den internationella hubben för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information kolla upp vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra typen av esoterisk, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:35:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh it exists, damn
17:35:24 <zzo38> (Well, the speaker on right side works; the one on left sometimes it doesn't works)
17:35:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, not enough concatenated words in that though
17:36:04 <Vorpal> "programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning" is clearly superior to "design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk"
17:36:21 <Vorpal> Especially deployment != distribution
17:37:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, though "knutpunkten" is better than "hubben" clearly
17:38:24 <Vorpal> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:38:31 <Vorpal> That seems to be the best of both
17:38:34 <tswett> Benvenite ad centrum internationalis de designatio et deplementatio de linguae esotericae programmati! Per plus informatio, mira nostro wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Per alter tipus esotericae, proba #esoteric in EFnet vel DALnet.)
17:38:45 <tswett> I don't know of any specific errors in that.
17:39:03 <oerjan> i can see lots of case errors
17:39:24 <b_jonas> hmm, welcome in real Swedish
17:39:38 <tswett> Some of those are definitely real Latin words. "Ad", "per", "plus", "alter", "in". And I feel like "centrum" looks about right.
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17:40:46 <tswett> What case is that supposed to be? Uh, there's nominative, accusative, dative, genitive, ablative, and vocative. So the word for "center" should be in the... dative?
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17:41:36 <oerjan> Benvenite ad centrum internationalem de designatione et deplementatione de linguis esotericis programmatis!
17:42:06 <tswett> I assume you came up with that by just taking my "translation" and sticking the right case endings on.
17:42:48 <oerjan> i suspect "de" should be replaced with genitive
17:43:11 <oerjan> that gets beyond my actual knowledge, i think
17:43:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenite: not found
17:44:16 <HackEgo> bin/arienvenido \ bin/benvenuto \ bin/bienvenido
17:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenido: not found
17:44:49 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
17:45:08 <oerjan> the spanish one is the only non-english one that sees serious use
17:45:17 <oerjan> because of the canaimas
17:46:47 <oerjan> `` grep -i anaima wisdom/*
17:46:49 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
17:47:03 <oerjan> `` grep -Ri anaima wisdom/*
17:47:05 <shachaf> `` rgrep -i anaima wisdom # hth
17:47:06 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
17:47:34 <oerjan> is there a difference between rgrep and grep -R
17:47:43 <shachaf> but there's a difference between wisdom and wisdom/*
17:49:10 <oerjan> `mk wisdom/welcome.sv//Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:49:20 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:49:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "$0" | sed -e 's_.*/__'
17:50:24 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett
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17:51:34 <oerjan> i think wisdom.?? scales better
17:52:45 <fizzie> "welcome.no" gives out bit of mixed signals for English speakers, though.
17:54:13 <fizzie> I guess you can have welcome.nb and welcome.nn separately.
17:56:18 <shachaf> have you considered /nick oohrjan twh
18:01:40 <oerjan> i am hitting a roadblock here: i have no idea what, if any, is the norwegian word for software deployment.
18:03:20 <oerjan> hm there are hits for "driftssetting" but too few of them
18:03:50 <int-e> is there a word for "software"?
18:04:49 <oerjan> hm "idriftsetting" has slightly more hits than that again
18:05:29 <int-e> Oh, we have "aufsetzen", hmm, but it's really derived from "setup", I'm afraid.
18:05:58 <int-e> oerjan: ah, better than german. (we have Programme, but a collection of those would just be software, I think)
18:06:28 <oerjan> except that would obviously be bokmål only, hm...
18:06:59 <int-e> (Historically, "program" *may* have come from german? I wonder how to check that...)
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18:09:50 <int-e> oerjan: Oh and brainfuck, I also feel that checking for a non-zero remainder after dividing by 2 may be impossible with 3 cells; after all this inability of getting information out of a division loop is what makes Fractran and related languages such an attractive target (because you can cheat, undoing speculative multiplications all the time)
18:12:28 <int-e> applying the same trick to I/O, if you add a special output character that means "please disregard the last character" (something like backspace), that should "solve" the problem.
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18:15:15 <oerjan> yes, i also realized that you can interleave junk output
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19:02:17 <izabera> do you guys know this? http://spritesmods.com/?art=rapidisnake
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19:23:24 <izabera> would you guys expect a smart compiler to compute strlen every time in that loop? http://arin.ga/dpDMHa/raw
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19:41:43 <ais523> hmm, is the compiler allowed to assume that i isn't an element of argv[1]?
19:41:59 <fizzie> By strict aliasing, yes.
19:42:02 <ais523> I think it is because i is a local variable, and possibly also because it has the wrong type (not sure on that one)
19:42:25 <fizzie> I don't think it's allowed to assume getchar doesn't modify what argv points to, at least from general principles.
19:42:29 <ais523> is it also allowed to assume that putchar doesn't change argv? I think no, unless it has putchar special-cased
19:42:47 <ais523> I think the compiler can't assume what getchar/putchar do to main's arguments
19:43:02 <ais523> actually, you could probably use setvbuf to shift the stdio buffer into memory you controlled
19:43:09 <ais523> and then recursively call main using the same buffer as part of argv
19:43:18 <ais523> I… think I may have a new IOCCC idea
19:48:09 <FreeFull> Environment variables are stored near to the program arguments
19:51:58 <ais523> to be a proper IOCCC entry I can't rely on system-specific things
19:52:06 <ais523> but I can definitely store things in stdio buffers
19:52:45 <fizzie> cycles.json went from 227428 to 347439 bytes when I added -1/0/1 numbers for all pairs/rounds in preparation for indicating the winner.
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20:02:05 <izabera> ais523: putchar takes an int, not a pointer. how can that possibly change argv[1] ?
20:02:43 <ais523> izabera: putchar writes to a stdio buffer
20:03:06 <ais523> the buffer isn't written to the screen immediately unless you do something to flush it (by default, this is writing '\n', but it's customizable)
20:03:32 <ais523> izabera: now, suppose you call main recursively; you can give it a pointer to the stdio buffer (which is potentially under user control) in its argv
20:03:46 <ais523> there's no rule in C saying you /can't/ do this
20:04:08 <ais523> and your program could potentially be linked against a separate library that contains a recursive call to main (say you link against a custom libc)
20:04:17 <ais523> so the compiler doesn't have enough information to know that you're not going to do that
20:04:22 <ais523> and has to play it safe
20:04:42 <fizzie> GCC has attributes you can use to mark "pure" functions, of which more assumptions can be made. (Of course, putchar can't be one.)
20:06:28 <ais523> restrict was invented for this, too
20:06:47 <ais523> if main's second argument was char *restrict *, then it'd know that argv isn't aliasing any global (including stdout)
20:06:55 <ais523> *if main's second argument were
20:08:51 <izabera> doesn't seem to change anything
20:23:46 <Vorpal> ais523, hm good IOCCC idea, but what would you use it for that is interesting though?
20:24:08 <ais523> maybe some sort of scanf-based logic
20:24:51 <Vorpal> ais523, oh yeah, you could scanf from and into that same buffer (possibly different parts of it)
20:25:48 <Vorpal> As long as you provided long enough arguments for there to be enough buffer to work with
20:28:39 <Vorpal> ais523, btw, how goes feather? Or is it dead?
20:28:55 <ais523> Vorpal: it's no more dead than before
20:28:58 <ais523> I think about it occasionally
20:29:14 <ais523> The Underlambda Project actually shares some similarities with Feather, but is less insane
20:29:36 <Vorpal> But underlambda is also not done, right?
20:30:19 <ais523> huh, you actually remember what underlambda is? nobody else seems to :-P
20:30:54 <ais523> over the years I've really made progress in pinning down the details, though
20:31:01 <fizzie> I've just assumed -- from the name -- that it'd be (unlambda + underload) / 2.
20:31:11 <ais523> I even found a way to do subtraction that I'm happy with
20:31:24 <ais523> fizzie: that's the etymology, and it's not a bad description
20:31:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't remember how it works no
20:31:31 <ais523> but the resulting language is higher-level than that description would imply
20:31:31 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/ now shows the winner in the subgraph.
20:31:33 <Vorpal> I remember that it is a thing though
20:31:53 <fizzie> If it looks strange, I might ha... actually, I did.
20:32:03 <fizzie> Yeah, one half of the scores are the wrong way around.
20:32:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is a blank page for me below the text?
20:32:36 <Vorpal> And no, not adblock or noscript
20:34:19 <fizzie> It might not be all that cross-platform.
20:34:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, chromium on Debian wheezy
20:36:40 <fizzie> I'm using Chromium on Debian [something], too.
20:37:02 <fizzie> (Chromium 45.0.2454.85.)
20:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, nope, the graph doesn't show up there
20:37:17 <Vorpal> Version 37.0.2062.120 Built on Debian 7.6, running on Debian 7.9 (281580) (64-bit)
20:37:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, quite a bit older
20:37:27 <Vorpal> Since I'm still running oldstable
20:37:34 <Vorpal> Need to update to stable
20:37:46 <Vorpal> At some point, good night for real now *turns off monitor*
20:37:46 <fizzie> Mm. I may have inadvertently relied on something modern somewhere.
20:38:04 <fizzie> I think d3 should be relatively portable, though, since it's so popular, so it's probably something I did.
20:41:35 <ais523> fizzie: ooh, new visualisation idea: current position for each warrior at the end of the match
20:42:00 <ais523> would be nice to see how "far" the loser got through the winner's decoys
20:43:20 <fizzie> I could do some sort of a summarizer. You can of course see individual ones with the egojsout viewer.
20:43:50 <ais523> indeed, it's the summary that's more interesting
20:44:08 <ais523> I'm not sure what you'd want to average over: opponents and tape lengths are the obvious things to average over though
20:48:34 <oerjan> fizzie: it doesn't work in IE 11 either hth
20:48:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Does it just not show up?
20:49:17 <oerjan> yeah, nothing below the text
20:50:24 <fizzie> I'll test it when I boot to Windows next. In fact, could do that now.
20:50:37 <fizzie> I've been thinking about going 10, despite everything.
20:54:52 <oerjan> as long as you stay away from the edge
20:55:01 <oerjan> Microsoft Edge, that is
21:01:31 <fizzie> Oh, Math.log10 was something very new, it seems.
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21:02:01 <fizzie> Works from Chrome 38 onwards; Vorpal managed to pick the newest non-working Chrome.
21:04:01 <fizzie> I'll patch it in when I'm next *away* from Windows. This dual boot thing is kind of inconvenient. I have git here in Winland, but not e.g. the SSH keys for uploading a fixed version, or rsync... wait, since when do I have rsync?
21:04:33 <fizzie> Also the console is bash. Am I actually in Windows at all?
21:04:51 <fizzie> I guess I've made an effort to make this feel homely.
21:06:08 <myname> why even boot windows?
21:07:12 <fizzie> Games maybe twice a year, in my case.
21:07:49 <myname> there are plenty of games for linux
21:08:13 <fizzie> They're the wrong ones.
21:09:47 <fizzie> I think about half of my Steam library is Windows-only. Can't recall the exact number.
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21:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GoogolPlanck * New user account
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21:38:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44194 * GoogolPlanck * (+26) Created page with "== Syball == == Symball =="
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21:52:02 <Sgeo_> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/11856221/Humans-may-accidentally-send-aliens-a-computer-virus.html wtf?
21:52:44 <Sgeo_> I mean, I guess poorly designed alien equipment might malfunction if it interprets signals from space as machine code because aliens are idiots, but... a virus?
21:59:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44195&oldid=44194 * GoogolPlanck * (+3020)
22:00:52 <izabera> what's a polite way to tell your healer that it's not ok to disconnect in the middle of a dungeon
22:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44196&oldid=44166 * GoogolPlanck * (+14) /* S */
22:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason when i middle click in chrome it opens anywhere from one to four new tabs
22:05:36 <Sgeo_> I made the mistake of reading comments on a news site
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22:14:52 <fizzie> My left click sometimes doubleclicks on its own, so I get 1-2 tabs when ctrl-clicking.
22:16:27 <boily> fizziello. middle click?
22:16:48 <fizzie> boily: It also drops items when dragging.
22:17:01 -!- Wright has joined.
22:17:06 <fizzie> And the right click only clicks on every third or so attempt.
22:17:28 <boily> that is quite suboptimal.
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22:17:51 <fizzie> Well, the new mouse from Amazon instead scrolls on its own when in the free-spinning mode I've gotten very used to.
22:18:08 <fizzie> The scroll wheel has an orientation it likes, and it returns to it by gravity.
22:18:28 <fizzie> Scrolling up to a page's worth up and down after every operation, depending on the angle it was left at.
22:18:56 <fizzie> And the replacement for that is somewhere in France, and will be delivered a week from now, even though they said they'll use the fastest possible shipping method.
22:19:29 <boily> fizzie's suboptimouse.
22:20:21 <fizzie> I've heard "The House of the Mouse" is a term people use of the Disney corporation.
22:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, finnish deliveries are low-priority and don't occasion the use of a plane
22:25:19 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover.
22:25:36 <boily> are you saying Finnish deliveries are made by foot?
22:27:10 <myname> unicycles would be awesome
22:27:28 <olsner> would be? unicycles are real
22:27:35 <myname> i'd appreciate someone in the front of my door on a unicycle with a package for me
22:28:05 <myname> olsner: i mean as a delivering tool
22:28:27 <myname> there are also unitandems, that would be even more awesome
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23:18:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44197&oldid=44195 * GoogolPlanck * (+1) /* Docs */
23:19:21 <oren_> wAt, Dat SVd bE EvniG
23:30:15 <myname> symball is neat. not that special, but slim and you can obfuscate great
23:30:46 <myname> i am temoted to write symball code that is valid with two different reading offsets
23:37:32 <boily> is that some kind of klingonified English spelling?
23:48:32 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm